The Business of Buzziness
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2023
- We all love buzzy oscillators. Here's my journey down one particular buzzy oscillator rabbit hole!
PS. I commandeered old video footage for the musical excerpts of this video, everything was freely accessible on social media and had been published, copied and republished countless times over. Given the documentary nature of my video I am hoping the original copyright owners will look kindly on my "fair use" of their material.
One particular film of Bob Moog stood out for me as being a very touching portrait of this wonderful, kind and thoughtful man. That film is a documentary made by Hans Fjellestad, here is a link to it on CZcams but there are many other CZcams uploads of the exact same film: • Moog (Documentary) - Hudba
Excellent video!! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
There's actually 3 sets of changes involved in the slew rate mod, and Moog replaced 2/3 during the production run of the Voyager. So a late production Voyager has 2/3 of the slew rate mod done already. An early run Voyager would have a more dramatic difference I suspect, so that might explain some reactions
I loved the down the rabbit hole sequence. Top notch.
“Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness.”
― Blaise Pascal, Pensées
The internet, a reservoir for fairy tales and folklore. 😉
Great video as always.
13:41 Tim, you have to keep in mind, that the EQ will not be pitch dependend.
In other words: The „EQ“ you‘d need to apply would need to be different (Freq/Gain) for each note. Just giving a thought. Keep up the good work !
The buzz is so essential! I get why people would be disappointed without it!
Hey Tim. Thanks for the Video. I have been toying with the Slew Rate mod for years. I did some Patches for the EB and Select Series back in 2005-2007(Bank B I think). I could never get that BUZZ out of the Voyagers that the Modular and Mini produced......but then the trade off is what it brought to the table sound and possibilities wise....The fixed wave form of the Mini meant you got a Sine/Saw/ Pulse/square..but with the variable waveform knob...it depended on the calibration of the knob (depending how you look at this...the hardware Moog Knob or the person who's controlling it). They are wonderful machines...Thanks for taking the time to point out a few urban myths in this. It is actually dependant on the quality of your speakers, your audio equipment and of course....our own ears..... ;)
Another amazing video from Mr. Shoebridge thank you -- Excellent stuff
I really enjoy your content Tim. This was a very interesting video and has probably helped me decide not to replace my Voyager & B Model D with one of the new Moog re-issues. Fellow tinnitus sufferer here as well......
This reminds me of Loopop’s VCV Rack vs Hardware video. And why I recommend an Expert Sleepers ES-8 (expandable) or ES-9 as a first modular (eurorack) purchase.
Nice O-scope! I didn't know Korg made one. It looks like it was built from an electronics kit. I absolutely love Jethro Tull's guitarist.
Thanks for that video and for going down the rabbit hole, I really enjoyed watching it.
I like your EQ Idea, very simple and brilliant, hopefully nobody turns their noses up at the idea.
I have a Voyager, a Voyager XL, & a Moog One! They all have a distinctive style and sound but, they have the Moog genes in their sounds & shaping still nail those sounds we know and love!
The Voyagers could sound very different to each other, depending on WHEN they were produced (or if one is modded, of course). Moog One sounds even softer than the Voyager, ime - no doubt, because it is voiced for high polyphony (versus the voicing of the monophonic versions; especially the Model D 👑 ).
Tim, congratulations on another very entertaining video! I enjoyed every second of it! I agree that the difference between the slew rate mod and none is very subtle, especially to my old ears (that are probably older than yours). Most of the people posting here are a lot more technically proficient than me, but I hear what I hear (with a serious case of tinnitus in both ears from all the years of very loud music).
If you can't hear the difference in a finished recording after undergoing the youtube processing then the difference is unimportant for all practical purposes.
Conclusion: it’s gotta be pretty much Life and Death, having the mod, right! You don’t have The Mod, not only should you not broadcast Saw Waves in public, you are a big Square!
I owned the XL; what a beautiful instrument. I bought mine having been unboxed and demo’d at Namm. Being 2nd in line saved me $1500 at the time.
Can’t recall the colors name, but the wood finish was a milky white…unusual. I didn’t mind and never worried that my Saw Waves sounded differently to a more traditional wood finish.
Good work, Tim, unlocking the EQ fix.
I appreciate all the effort you put in to this video to, in the end, demonstrate such a subtle difference in tone. I think we're about the same age, so while I can hear a difference, it's not a meaningful one to these ears. Thanks again, Tim!
Thank you soooo much for this video. Great discussion.
I have the RME and slew rate modded it; there is an important fact that you forgot to mention Tim: The filter opens up more as well on the slew rate mod so it can indeed sound brighter and alot more like the minimoog. Note that mine is the official mod by Moog but they specifally state that after the mod, you have to turn down the cutoff in all patches to make it sound the same before the mod
There is perceivable difference between the two. I wonder if two Voyagers would have the same amount of variation in tone? Matter of taste, but I preferred the RME/slew version - whatever the engineering is behind the mod. Thank you for video!
Great video as always. I love your approach to this subject matter.
I have owned more than one Minimoog Model D and even between vintages they sound slightly different. The maintenance and aging of the circuits and environmental conditions can also affect these instruments.
I have an RME. First time and thanks to your video I heard the XL. I think that RME is brighter. Thanks for the video.
Good video Tim. Makes you wonder why we buy all the marketing mayhem really... Sometimes subtle nuances matter but overall they don't really make such a difference. If it ain't broken don't try to fix it if it is a waste of energy. Create, don't overcomplicate.
In a labo setting-up this subtile sonic differences are audible and/or visible for people who likes to see the micro differences and who likes to hear them also when you 'project' them sonically in a 'clean room environment'. BUT this is never the environment in which real music events are presented...
And in a musical end-mix you hear first of all the most basic melody and harmony lines, texture blendings of different musical instruments (or different modulated oscilators layered to an additive bi-/tri-/multi-builded-up-together "new sonic wave experience" with all her own sonic (micro)happenings (and also depending, indeed, on your your personal ears and brains abilities).
And you hear this all in a direct temporal context of chordprogressions and this simultanly during all instant uplifted emotions of that momentum that evokes in every one of us a different kind of perception of it.
And you hear certainly ALSO the articulations (in acoustic instruments often vibrato or tremelo) or imitating by a violoncello a voice or noise that resembles crying or weaping. Or what can be reached with synthesizers with subtile 'knobing" and/or with aftertouch subtile differerences as an art in itself and as a real challenge to master this aspect of keyboard (or other controller tool) playing.
I think the most important thing in this all is using all this subtile audible differences into a sonic storytelling way with consistency in which you gives dramatical functions to all this sonic subtilities. And this in a way the listener can understand your musical soundscaping artistry rich messege because they are all used in a 'logical' rhetoric way in which they can make sense. Otherwhile it's a sonic evolving neverending story in which sonic changing just for-the-fun-of-constantly-sonic-changing will appear. And that's also okay. Finally, nothing is always the same and all evolves constantly.
In fact , it's a very old story about music composing aesthetics itself. And yes : this is also very personal.
I think this entire discussion of (the strong will of) marking the most subtile differences "that really matters" started when VST and software emulations were introduced on the synth-market.
Let's face it : when you can buy a software version of an legendary iconic vintage synthesizer I'm sure that someone who payed 100x more money for 'the same but old vintage version' LIKE TO HEAR a difference on WHATEVER level. And yes, there are certain differences, depending on mining metals differences for making the microchips and all other electronic components and which will always resulting into micro electronic differences in "sonic happenings").
This will be an Neverending Discussion Story between users of the real vintage stuff and them who possess a VST emulation of it.
The real question in all of this is : DOES IT REALLY MATTERS SO MUCH? That's the big question.
Nice work. I felt that the XL sounded thinner but the EQ trick improved it sufficiently.
I spent a bit of time with my voyager last night: the saw wave indicator error is quite profound!! On mine it's almost to the previous notch which is 3. It really fattens up the sound, esp with 2 osc running. You'll hear it when you get it dialed in.
Thanks again for the vid
oops I posted this in the wrong vid! Was a while ago I watched it. You mentioned this in your other Voyager vid. I'll move my comment, apologies!
Although I guess it applies here too, as the saw osc isn't buzzy enough if you are going by the osc waveform dial
The difference, even to my 60+ year old ears via CZcams is quite obvious. Ok not night and day but it's there. But, as you demonstrate, in most patches where there is some filtering applied, the difference is practically non-existent - and most of the patches I use Moogs for are of the darker, filtered type. When I first got the Behringer, I did a raw waveform comparison against my Voyager and was so shocked at the relative dullness, I went straight out and got the slew rate mod done. Best couple of hundred quid I ever spent. No change for the darker patches, but it's nice to have the option to get the full buzz when you need it. I now have both these synths next to a 2022 Moog D and gave serious thought to selling the Voyager but have now decided to keep it, mostly for its rounder, less raw bass tones. I am an electronics engineer and have the schematics for Voyager, with and without the SR mod. Several op amps in the filter and amp stages are replaced by considerably faster parts and some capacitor values are reduced, although these are in the volume control path, not audio path, so maybe this makes envelopes a bit snappier but I can't say I've noticed this.
I didn't have the slew rate mod on my RME but after watching this I wish it did.. albeit CZcams I'm listening on reasonably good monitors, I'm getting old and my hearing above 12k isn't what it was, but definitely I can hear the difference in the complexity and presence of the upper harmonics... the EQ option boosts that frequency range but its still not as complex.. I'm not convinced of the relevance of the model D comparison though... its a different instrument therefore different strengths and weaknesses over the Voyager... found this episode informative and possibly more influential than you might expect =)
King Slewer!
My sense, having owned moogs back in the day, and signature voyager, rme, and now still have my voyager select indigo, is that it does sound a little different, but still designed by Bob and he liked the sound. What many folks miss is that adding an analog delay pedal, as was most often the case 40 years ago, putting in a mix, eq, ducking and mastering, the difference would be less notable. The mod does sound better to my ears in theory, but i have no sense of lacking when using the voyager relative to other things in the mix. Soooo...i am with you on your conclusion. In my case i tend to run stuff through a tube which adds sizzle, perhaps in different way.
There is a little bit of difference and with the right patch it might matter a little but really there isn't much difference, not enough worth bothering with.
Top good !
I too have older ears and am also somewhat less subject to hyperbole. That said, one should observe that although equalizing the unmodified synth appears to mostly compensate for the reduced harmonic level, a spectrum analyzer is not really as comprehensive as it might seem in describing all that humans perceive aurally. Specifically, equalization introduces a phase shift in a significant portion of the audio spectrum depending upon how severe the correction required is. There is a more accurate way of analyzing what humans actually hear that also looks at the time variable(phase) as well as loudness and frequency. As you might imagine, reading such "waterfall" graphs is significantly less intuitive than looking at a spectrum analysis which only displays two variables.
All that said, I agree with your summation entirely that the difference between the two synths is less significant-for my ears-than some would describe it. I just wanted to be clear that there are documentable variables here that do exist. Just because you and I may judge them "less-than-critical" does NOT mean that they are non-existent.
Best regards and thanks for a lovely channel,
Alan Tomlinson
I failed to make clear that some phase shifts are audible to many and some to just a few.
Man, don't try to fool yourself. You want THAT sound then get a vintage or reissued Minimoog. You don't mind the darker sound and much more stable VCOs then keep your Voyagers. Stop trying to get orange juice out of a banana. It's not going to happen.
Only listened to the examples near the end - personally preferred the unmodified sounds (slightly).
It is a must have for audiophile persons 😅
Thanks for the comparison and confirmation what I had already guessed. The difference is so tiny, I would never bother. Glad I really don’t need the slew rate mod.
Faster slew gives some high frequencies on the edges of the waveforms. Faster op amps and smaller feedback caps do the job. You can just EQ but its not the same, as its doing it all over the audio. Its why analog VCOs sound different, some engineers smooth the edges, others let the buzz come thru. The 2600 has some really nice edges which is why replacing the 301s with the original fast op amp makes it sound brighter (B2600). Late 70’s 2600’s sound like mud, whilst a Meanie sings.☺️☺️
I always catch your Voyager videos because I think it's one of the greatest monosynths ever made. I do find it a bit silly to be pedantic over the very slight difference in brightness between the model D and the Voyager. And yes, with EQing, coupled with the fact that in practice the synth will be in a mix, no one is going to notice such a minuscule disparity. I seem to recall that Bob Moog made the slew rate what it is because it made the waveforms more characteristic of some of his older synths.
A boring idea on the Mini Moog will always sound boring. A great idea on the un-modified Voyager will always sound great and far better. Those who believe there is so much difference would not identify well in a controlled blind A/B test. If the Moog part was part of a much greater piece of music, then even less so. Robert Moog actually said himself the Voyager was the finest Mini Moog he ever designed and built. It's in a class of its own. Not to mention the million things it can do that the original MiniMoog cannot. He designed it with the op amps and things he wanted for a reason. I just see the Voyager as a monster synth with a really beautiful sound. No two Voyagers might sound perfectly the same either. Deep is an understatement. It still rattles the floor incredibly well. If you are thinking of doing the mod and/or getting someone to do it you must be sure you get the exact components. I contacted Moog about it and they sent me the list of parts you need and what to do. It involves a fait bit of desoldering of IC's and replacing them. You can also get the line up procedure from Moog as well. They are very nice and helpful.
Slew rate mods are changes to the filtering. So you are correct, a filter can have the same or similar effect. If you slow down the slew rate (filter out the higher harmonics), you will slow down the rise and fall times on the waveform - round everything off. If you speed up the slew rate, you do the opposite - make the sharp edges more prominent and increase the amplitude of the higher harmonics.
So a slew rate mod isn't always to slow down edge rates. It could be to increase edge rates. Which is it for your RME? I'm not sure that is clear, and I'm not sure how any of that relates to buzziness since buzz can describe many different sounds. These are questions the previous owner would have to answer probably, to understand what they were hearing and why they did the mod. Becasue like you, I don't hear any difference of significance.
Looking at the spectrum analyzer, it appears the XL has a slower slew rate than the RME on most of your examples. Either the the RME started with faster rise/fall times on the waveform vs. the XL and the slew rate mod brought the RME slew rate down to match the XL, or the goal of the mod was to increase the slew rate in order to increase amplitude of upper harmonics because the original owner thought the RME wasn't "bright" enough. Again, what that has to do with buzziness, I don't understand.
Begs the question, did the RME have too fast of slew rates from the factory, or does your XL have too slow of slew rates. This is exacerbated by the waveform selection knobs being variable, not switches. Frankly, when it comes to Voyagers, most comments about waveforms not sounding "right" are people not understanding how to get the "right" waveform using these variable knobs. The Moog One has the same feature, but I never hear people complain about it not sounding "right".
Thank you for this video. Very informative.
Could you add timestamps/chapters? This is a very informative video but I can't really follow it all in one piece so I'd be good to know exactly what each part of the video is about
50 years old and struggle past 12khz, but I could hear the difference very clearly on Mac Pro speakers. It's almost as bad as the filter messup on the Arp Odyssey, it is very obvious for sure. Eq sorted it out though :)
I hated mine and I sold it , the sound wasn't good
In the examples that are going on around 9:46, you've got a faint "pre echo" of each example happening, as if the louder, main sound, is delayed? I can still hear the differences clearly between the RME and XL.
Or maybe there IS a problem? Because I could hear a very clear difference, the XL sounded muffled in that specific back to back test between around 9:40 to 10:00. When played separately, in the other comparisons, I couldn't hear the difference so easily.
It was the sound coming out of my speakers being picked up by the mic :(
You could make a video on the physics of peanut butter and I would watch it with rapt attention
If you can't hear the difference between the waveforms, maybe it's because you have PLUGIN EARS!
Sounds a little more muffled with the mod actually.
Hmmm I hear no real discernable difference but I am suffering from the effects of loud gigs: tinnitus & loss of hearing in one ear.... however I think good eq experimentation is half if not 3 quarters the story
I can hear the difference and the EQ doesn't seem to particularly match. It seems boosting the present frequencies isn't the same as generating new frequencies. With that said, the synths are close enough (regarding sound) for most needs. Build and feature quality is a different story (looking at you Behringer).
I lusted after Minimoogs during the 90’s. Problem was they’d always sold before I phoned the seller.
So I got a Behringer Model D when they came out and found it to be built like a small tank. Neutron too.
Build quality is good to very good.
Factory patch sounds the same to me on both 😂 I’m still shocked InMusic acquired Moog. Feels like they sold their soul to the devil before their finacial collapse happened. Don’t know if I’ll ever look at them the same as long they are part of that terrible brand.
As always a great video ,as to the differences not a great deal,whilst playing i would think it would be of no difference whatsoever,i have the RME great synth ,without the slew rate mod ,
The modded Voyager sounds far better, to my ears. (and I’m no spring chicken, either)
The Voyagers I’ve heard do sound soft/disappointing (to me), compared with a Model D.
i want a two voice polyphonie, even paraphonic Voyager.... when i had the old minimoog in 1998, i snobed the Voyager...12 years later i prefered the Voyager ...Ps: your friends maybe they have old ears too 😆
I have that pesky ear ringing in my left ear , I know exactly what you live with :/
Haven't watched just yet but did get that Bob film so thx for that heads up, just finishing Tron Legacy 4K which is sublime.
Bizzy Bee Buzziness!!!
Maybe some people can hear a difference in isolation. But in real world music production you end up mixing all those minor differences out. Perhaps it's important in a solo part. Or maybe it's just my "plugin ears" that I just don't care. 😆
rabbit hole😂
People take this stuff way too seriously. Hunting minor technical differences is not going to lead to better music. Genuinely talented musicians can write great tracks on any synth.
I have a wonderful XL and have thought about the slew rate mod, but every time I listen and struggle to hear the difference my interest wans further. Thanks for the video.
sleewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Is this a polite way of saying bulshit ?
Please take the over long intro off
Almost blocked you jus cuz of this
Greed is a sin