As a WHM main, when my MP bar is empty, I don’t wish I had more piety, I wish people would stop getting hit by mechanics and dying six times in one pull.
That's just prog. lol. But yeah if people are dying too much just calculate if it's going to take longer than 30 minutes to finish the content and if it is, just leave, take the penalty and do something that won't make you rage at your screen.
Love these cohesive explorations into certain stats that generally people are told: "It's just bad. Facts" rather than the why it's bad when they're just starting to raid and have to actually pay attention to this stuff
I'm glad to hear that! Thank you so much! 😄 Yeah I feel it's a lot easier to make the right decision for yourself when you understand the why behind things, so I want to avoid the "it just is" kind of explanation if I can 😊 I'm glad it helps! 😄
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Sadly while details are nice and all, you can still just boil it down to. "Other stats deal more damage" Im not sure how that can be fixed but thats pretty much the entire game currently.
As a Paladin main: How dare you insult me with the truth. 😭 I want tenacity (and piety) to be good, so badly. I love the idea of doubling down on your role and being extra good at tanking, or extra good at healing, but I can see how that would be difficult for the devs to balance. In the end, everything is just a dps check. 😞
I'm totally with you there, I wish tenacity was great! And with the way players have managed to perfect optimization, it is simply too hard to make content that makes tenacity good without it being outright mandatory 😞
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It is not just hard to do so, it is actually impossible. In any situation where tenacity is not mandatory, players will always prefer to forego it entirely in order to finish the fight faster. A better but non-mandatory tenacity stat might see increased use in prog, but that's all.
feel like a "bad but necessary" change would be to make it so DirectHit is a DPS-only stat... so at least now, tanks would be crit > det > speed/tenacity. OR drop tenacity entirely, but add "**Tank classes take less dmg" to Determination. I would LOVE for tenacity to be meaningful, but at the end of the day... the toughestfights are just DPSchecks, and tenacity's DPS is abouuuut 1/2 as good as Determination. Yes, having tenacity SHOULD mean the healers can DPS more... but most dmg in ToughFights is aoe, so healers would still have to heal the same~ amount to keep the Others alive. In the grandscheme of things, Tenacity is more like TrainingWheels; something to fall back on when you're learning, where you're notAlways on top of mit'ing thingsThatMatter.
@@andrewdesalvatore7262So i dont know how it would effect the numbers but i like that idea tenacity could also raise crit, def, and determination but obviously at a smaller rate then boosting each of the stats individually
that's why generally healers say "meld piety to comfort" you don't technically need it, but might be for comfort to have a bit more than required and drop 0.2% dps so you can be more comfortable. hell, DPS checks in FF14 are generally so generous that it's laughable, outside of ultimates, and even then it's just ToP now, the only time a DPS check matters in DSR is for the final phase as it's just stressfull and you need to keep your dps up while dodging run ending mechanics 18-19 minutes into a fight.
@@DarkDyllonyeah I don’t need much, 580-600 is fine and that’s on the high end. I do see differences though and it is nice seeing the difference but… It is more cost efficient and lower risk dealing more damage. People take less damage when enemies are dead.
@@DarkDyllon To be fair mp management is also a joke on healers nowadays, if played well they can all perform very comfortably on base piety, even while needing to GCD heal throughout a fight and having to rez once or twice
Honestly, I hope for 7.0 they retire tenacity and merge skill/spell speed. Even though most healers I know avoid piety like the plague, it still has a use in prog.
That could work. Maybe they could just make determination also contain tenacitys damage reduction for tanks specifically, which might switch things up a bit stats wise. Merging speeds is a good idea too. And indeed, piety is a stat that at least sometimes is considered valuable!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh that's a great idea yeah! It would give determination melding some more consideration over direct hit. Right now (crit aside) I will meld as much direct hit until I hit the least wasteful stat tier and then meld det. If it contributed to defence in place of tenacity though, I might think twice.
@@Phoenix-cc7xb Solid names, yeah. It would make it more useful overall honestly. Right now SkS is "useless" for PLD and DRK cause several skills are spells. It would introduce another layer of thought to substat optimisation that currently is (mostly) ignored in favour of "meld to comfort then stack crit>dhit>det"
i just wish the materia stats actually made any @#$%ing sense. on so we have critical hit, another critical hit thats named something different, tank and healer specific materia that dont do much, regular just do more damage, and speeds. dark souls has more clarity.
There was a short time where tenacity was sometimes considered for warrior exactly. Since they have a fairly high uptime of guaranteed direct crits, direct hit as a stat would lose value quite a bit. Crit you would want to maximize of course, then determination, but sometimes you would have both maxed on a piece of gear (especially during early progression), and since you only meld skill speed up to the specific gcd, you would then put tenacity in remaining slots for the higher value over direct hit. This was, as far as i remember, very niche and mostly only done in specifically crafted gear for week 1, since anything past that wouldnt have the space, but i do think it was neat
This is correct! Early in endwalker at least, tenacity was considered over direct hit because of how many guaranteed direct hits you had! Then those attacks were adjusted to get a damage bonus from it. The important part is that tenacity was chosen because it was "weaker determination" which was better than direct hit during inner release, which means that the damage reduction wasn't even a consideration 😊😁 As I recall, it rarely even led to any tenacity materia being used 😊
Importantly, doing more damage is, in itself, mitigation. If you kill the thing faster, it gets to attack you less, which means you get hit by less attacks, or have less chances of someone making a mistake and wiping the group. So you can mitigate with more risk, or just get crit and mitigate by reducing that mistake risk.
This is probably the most important thing, yeah. In content with raidwides and group mechanics etc it doesn't matter how safe you are as the tank if you end up having to do a challenging phase that could otherwise have been skipped.
I hear this thrown around a lot, but unless anyone in the group is having MP issues or DPS checks aren't being succeeded, I don't see how it matters if the boss dies ten seconds later or whatever. The factors that will make or break a run come down to execution alone, especially in high end content where this discussion actually counts. Did anyone stand in a mechanic that made them die? Did a tank take so much burst that they couldn't handle it between death invuln cooldowns? If not, it's just a matter of time until the boss dies, and rushing leads to mistakes that can cause those deaths and vuln stacks and such. It's a battle of attrition, not a race in most cases. The only exception at all is that some fights like TEA are so long per attempt that doing them faster is just plain easier on everyone's mental health.
I remember back in HW I had a super scuffed Bard build that had as much piety as possible so I could keep up Foe Requiem as long as possible. These days I keep up the spirit of the meme by stacking up spell speed on healing gear for my Too Fastro build. If I saw someone go all-in on tenacity I couldn't even be upset, I'd just nod in approval at the meme.
That is a hilarious piety strategy! For those not aware, back in ARR/HW, Piety was a stat everyone could use if they wanted to, and it increased your max MP instead of granting more MP recovery specifically to healers. Foe Requiem was an aura like debuff that spent MP every few seconds to be maintained. It increased magic damage taken by enemies, but it also required a GCD to be activated as I recall, so keeping it up for as long as possible when it was activated would be beneficial (even if in this case, maybe stacking piety is a bit of a meme level of doing so! 😆)
In ShB, I had an alt at the time where I experimented sub stats like that. Imagine gnb with every single piece had Skill Speed on both subs and melds. Got it down to 2.34 gcds iirc. Really wish we had a bit more freedom with melds like we did back in the day, I would love gnb going mnk speeds.
@@KyonV13 The good news is that, as long as you aren't aiming specifically for savage or ultimates, I think most players won't mind or really notice that you are doing something very weird with your builds, so for more casual content, I say go wild with the speed, if you think it will be fun!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh You say that, but SPS is actually a very valuable stat for healers this patch because we aren't subscribing to the 2-minute meta right now. The faster our abilities that are affected by SPS can refresh, the better.
That is actually directly correlated to the 2 minute burst. The more dps cooldowns a healer has that boosts your damage during the 2 minute burst, the more they like spell speed 😊 Which is also why sage doesn't care that much for speed, because they don't have cooldowns like that 😊 Besides, the exact example we were talking about was wacky off meta builds. 😁
I just got into the game thanks to my fiancé and your guides have been invaluable in helping me get to a point where I can play with her and understand the roles and mechanics. Thank you so very much. Genuinely.
Piety and Tenacity seem like they really need a fucking rework in 7.0 so their materia aren't just booby prizes. Frankly, a reexamination of the melding system might be in order at some point. I kinda feel like whenever I actually start melding for a job it's pretty much always "meld as much crit as you can manage and then fill any gaps with direct hit/determination as needed." Max skill/spell speed is for meme builds, and max tenacity or piety can't even be used to meme. I want the tank-specific materia to be one that tanks WANT! @_@
I absolutely agree! As it stands right now, crit is too strong, but if that one was toned down a bit, then we'd just be stacking determination and direct hit, so it's like... A general thing, a lot of stats need some readjustments! 😅
Tenacity is fine. It is actually the best tank stat for 90% of use cases, just not for the use cases that require the most perfect optimization. If tenacity was even a little bit better, it would be such a no-brainer stat that it would cease to be a decision for any tank ever.
Please please do a deepdive on piety! Picking between recommended gear builds with different piety I could really do with understanding the nuances of the pros and cons better 😅 Especially the differences in the benefits and diminishing returns for each job
I have been planning to make a piety video as well! 😊 Thank you for suggesting it too, your comment gave me some inspiration as to what to include in it! 😄
Generally just pick whatever makes you comfortable. If you're a shield healer and you don't shield your tanks before busters and don't need to rezz much, probably play with a no piety set. If you shield your tanks on every buster and need to rezz here and there, probably some piety would help.
I always tell fresh tanks that are leveling up to use tenacity because you don't know what you going to get with pf at low levels. And I think it helps more when a fresh tank and healer get stuck in the same party together because you build confidence for both roles and the healer will be more likely to participate in attacking and not just standing by the heal
That can be a good idea yes 😁 it can be difficult to use since often you don't have much choice in the stats on your gear as you level up, and if you are synced down then materia stop working as well, but it is a good idea for new tanks!
It doesn't do enough of a damage increase to outweigh any of the other damage stats, and with the way damage and healing work in this game, you can easily survive anything and everything without any of it.
On top of exactly this, for anything to do enough damage to warrant getting Tenacity, things would have to hit so hard that it would require all DPS jobs to have defensive cooldowns to share, since otherwise only those with any would be viable! And thats just one side effect of such a change!
I like the idea of each role having a substat that's exclusive to them, but I honestly think those stats should be exclusive to those roles. Tanks and healers can't meld DH, etc. If crit was reigned in a bit and tenacity was given a boost, I could see there being a bit of agency when it comes to what to meld. Maybe go ultra safe and consistent with high tenacity. Go for higher potential but more swingier damage with crit. Or try to even it out. I'm sure there would still be something numerically superior for damage, but plenty of healers have high piety sets specifically for playing in party finder, so maybe a high tenacity set for tanks could be similar.
I think that might help too yeah. It is very strange that Direct Hit specifically isn't a role exclusive stat when you think about it. Others have suggested simply removing Tenacity and adding its damage reduction component to Determination (but only for tanks) could be a solution. Similarly, you could also just buff Tenacity up to a point where it is close to Determination, then at least for tanks, Tenacity is "better Determination", instead of "worse Determination"!
From a game development standpoint, the game needs an overhaul if an entire stat is universally considered a dump stat and having any of that stat instead of another is considered terrible, which in turn influences which pieces of gear are good, especially if the reason for that stat is because of how it interacts or doesn't interact with the other stats. If tenacity's problem is it fails to contribute its defensive stats to the offensive ones and vice versa, then the simple solution seems to be it needs to be able to call on how much damage you are doing and using that to scale defiance, or better yet, checks how much you are increasing defense and using that number to increase damage. Also this is a good time to point out that healers aught to be doing more damage than they are if a tank is doing more damage overall and is therefore punished by focusing on a stat that would allow healers to DPS more often just passively.
I agree that it is a problem if a stat is not considered valuable. I also think that the stats need an overhaul. I think you misunderstand on the Healers doing more damage thing though!😊 The reason Healers dont gain more damage from tanks taking less damage is that healers *already* can attack 100% of the time, while also keeping the tank alive, so the tank taking less damage simply cannot result in the healers doing more damage. If healers did twice the damage of a tank, Tenacity would still be unhelpful, since Healers already can attack all the time 😅
damage mit is proportionally equivalent to an inverse increase to max hp and healing received, and viewing it this way is pretty helpful for analyzing health mechanics, specifically because tenacity is an infinite duration. for example, having -50% mit would be as if you had x2 health and x2 healing received. with 1000 health normally, taking 1000 damage with either effect on would only deal 50% of your max hp as damage, then receiving a 500 hp heal would heal you 50%, right up to full. looking at it this way, it means tenacity can be observed as +1% damage, +1% healing dealt, ~+1.01% healing received, and ~+1.01% health boost per 10 tiers. under this lens, self-healing increase is quadratic for flat cure potencies (h. dealt x h. received), and CUBIC for lifesteal effects (d. dealt x h. dealt x h. received), with healing received already increasing exponentially as tenacity increases (being an inverse of a flat % decrease), and health boost adding a great deal of general health economy with the same exponential scaling. though it does, technically, decrease the efficiency of other mitigations, you will always end up with more total mit with tenacity than without it. and as for it being redundant, yes it entirely is, you can get by any and all content without tenacity with good cooldown management. i see it as being great for leveling roulette (which i use to grind for materia clusters often with tank), where you can just drop your whole rotation to check your phone or something with it really not mattering. tenacity acts as a cushion for when people dont really care to put in effort into gameplay, or if you get like stone vigil and a sprout healer or smth
A good point, that damage reduction is equivalent to effective hp and healing gain combined 😊 I did briefly mention that tenacity is great if the tank or healer is not confident in their ability, but becomes gradually worse the better the players are 😊 sometimes to the point where if the tank or healer is good enough, it becomes irrelevant 😁 I focused mainly on damage output number wise because that's the typical thing people focus on. The healing increase is nice of course, but similar to how healers prioritize direct hit because the healing from determination doesn't help enough, it is arguable that this quadratic healing increase from tenacity isn't helpful either 😅 Personally I feel the crit bonus to my heals is more helpful, but this video is of course mainly to teach some perspective on the stat! 😁
Thank you for the detailed mathematical explaination. But I feel like there is a missing bonus at tenacity (corect me if I'm mistaken) : HP increase Hp increase witch should't be added to the mitigation capability without the drawback of the standard -0.1% damage taken : if your HP rise by 1% you can take 1% more damage AFTER damage reduction. It shake a bit for later explenation but I now have a better picture ^^
Oooh you mean tenacity could increase max hp? Technically it kind of does, since damage reduction is equivalent to increasing your effective hp, which I briefly touched on 😊 But that could be relevant too given that there are a few mechanics that ignore all damage reduction and do fixed damage 😁
I do get the idea of tenacity being this great meld for tanking damage while providing slight damage increase. However, with what actions has been presented (along with specific fights that barely hurt tanks at times) and overall DPS checks to complete. Tenacity to an extent really is seen as a worse option in those fights. I would wish by 7.0 they flat out just change tenacity a bit (or overhaul it entirely) to where there’s still damage increase while providing that damage reduction too. It’s so bizarre it requires so many points to really provide the increased stats.
Yeah exactly, at a glance Tenacity sounds incredible. But simply because of its scaling, its too weak, which is probably even more underlined by the fact that if it scaled as well as Determination, Crit would probably still be considered more important ^^' I think a general overhaul of all of the stats would be nice!
Something to add that you brushed over slightly, Tenacity is also bad because of fight design in general. I have only played Endwalker Savage so I don't have comparisons for earlier fights. As a tank I'm almost never afraid of a tank buster because I either invuln or pop 2 cooldowns and get tickled. If tanks were actually in danger of dying from damage, Tenacity would be a more viable stat. Shared Tank busters are almost always spaced out in such a way that Warriors can Holmgang 1/3/5 and the other tanks can Invuln 2/6 leaving only 1 tank buster that does real damage. There have been some exceptions like P8S phase 1 but the tank busters are so far apart you can kitchen sink every defensive cooldown, take very little damage and have them all back for the next set. Most single Tank Busters can be handled with TBN/HOC/Bloodwhetting/Sheltron + Rampart or your 30% and still have no chance of killing you. Increasing the potency of tenacity by 40% would make it more attractive, but until incoming damage becomes actually dangerous it'll always be a trash stat.
That is very true. In fact, as far as I know, historically, Tenacity has never been good - and it was put in the game in Stormblood - almost certainly because of fight design!
If there are any relatively new players reading these comments: this video was very thorough, but there is one thing it forgot to address. "WHY is doing slightly more damage so important in a raiding environment in FFXIV?" It would be tempting to assume that this is merely the perspective of someone focused on dealing max DPS to look good on FFLogs, or someone who wants their reclears to be sped up by 2%. Although those are side benefits, that is not at all the reason why damage output is so fundamentally important in FFXIV Savage and Ultimate raids. It's all because of the ENRAGE TIMERS. In other MMOs such as World of Warcraft, enrage timers are typically not extremely strict and well-tuned. The wildly fluctuating amounts of damage that players can deal with a near-infinite number of variables involved is too complex for the developers to predict with high precision. In FFXIV, the developers know EXACTLY how much damage you and your entire group are likely to be dealing. Gearing is simple, there are no talents, and the damage spread between classes is miniscule compared to other MMOs. As such, enrage timers are tuned very precisely. The worst thing that can possibly happen in an FFXIV raid is not dying: it's making it all the way to the end, and dying to enrage while the boss is at 0.2% because the tanks melded Tenacity.
This is very true. I decided to not include the fact that enrage timers can be very strict, because the strictness of enrage timers can vary extremely heavily between raid tiers, and often, with more gear, the strictness is also naturally slacked a bit. However, as you brought up, beating a boss even just a single second faster is a lot more important, if the boss was going to wipe you in 1 second! And that is something Tenacity would never ever save you from! Thank you for adding this!
Tenacity needs to be buffed a lot to outshadow evertything else. But then also the Enemy Targets, especially in Raids need to hit a lot harder with their auto attacks to compensate the passive damage reduction of the tank. That would also lead to healers becoming relevant again in dungeons.
I feel the most valid reason why Determination/Direct Hit is valued more than Tenacity is because there is no boss in FFXIV that deals that much constant damage where Tenacity damage reduction would matter. Shields, heals, mitigation and even invulnerability are all more than enough to respond to any boss's skill kit. Yoshi-P's team needs to reassess how Tenacity works for next expansion, or it'll become the next useless stat to axe. Conversely, if they make Tenacity raise Parry rate while making bosses hit harder, then maybe Tenacity might see some possible use. Because the meta gameplay of FFXIV is all about dealing damage, so if bosses hit harder, tanks require more healing and healers spends more mana on heals than damage itself. The current design of FFXIV is slightly flawed because not only tank stats are placing DPS as priority(Det/DH over Tenacity/SKS), even Healers are doing it too(Det/DH over SPS/Piety). In the end, everyone is technically a DPS, just that tanks and healers simply throw out skills in response to specific boss's mechanics/rotations.
Indeed, tanks and healers prioritize damage almost entirely as much as a dps does. It is quite wild. I think it may partly be because tanks and healers have too many tools to deal with things: why grab a stat that boosts defense when you have so many defensive cooldowns you can get away with using 2 or 3 of them whenever the boss as much as looks in your direction? Why grab more mp regen when nearly all the healing you need to do can be done with abilities and free spells (for whm)? Either boss fights may need to be reassessed, or the sheer quantity of defensive ability options both tanks and healers get may need a check up 🤔
Thank you so much! Yes, often it is difficulty to tell when a stat is bad because of scaling, since the game never really tells you this 😁 I'm glad you found it helpful! 😄
Thanks for the explanation, I love this actually value comparison. But does this mean that there are no fights where every point of Dmg reduction matters because the boss attack at one moment just smacks you over yonder otherwise? Overall yes of course faster boss dead = less dmg taken = less healer involvement but surely there are fights where it’s about surviving the moment and not the fight, or not?
Thank you! 😄 As of right now, there are no fights where tenacity makes a significant enough impact that it really matters beyond the insurance policy argument ("when things go wrong, it is kind of nice to have tenacity sometimes") It really sucks that it is like that 😢 In ARR and HW i believe, there are some bosses that use "no warning tankbusters", where it can be harder to put up defensives beforehand. But usually these bosses do it at set intervals so it can become predictable anyway, and I think they don't do enough damage to surprise kill you even without tenacity! 😅
I think for 7.0 they should maybe turn tank determination stats into tenacity or boost its effectiveness. It is a tank-only stat, should be something they don’t shy away from. But that’s just my opinion. Unsure how to fix piety
In a simple example, most of the people that are going to meld stats are usually doing so because of Savage and EX trials, not going for DPS stats on tank and healer will MOST DEFINITELY lead to your party not clearing enrage due to not enough DPS and failing the EX/Savage.
Indeed! Even if it meant a tank just doing a few more damage, it is very possible that it is going to be very significant on the first clears of each boss 😊
They really need to rework the substat system entirely. Piety obviously has its uses but even then it's "to comfort" and even if you kit out entirely with it you're not getting a hugely significant amount of mana back per tick by stacking it. Tenacity you've described here. Spell Speed gets knocked out of the park on most jobs by Crit stacking due to the 2 minute meta. I really hope in 7.x we get a lot of tweaks.
I very much agree! I feel a major issue with Piety and Tenacity is that what makes them so bad is at least in part due to how many tools each job has to work with. The more cooldowns healers gets, the less MP they need for healing (if any). The more cooldowns tanks get, the less helpful tenacity looks. The 2 minute meta causing issues for Speed is also a very good point, and just another issue raised by this 2 minute meta problem!
So, there's one situation where I would consider stacking TEN as a tank: if you're mostly running casual content and NEVER any Extreme/Savage, and you're mostly or exclusively pugging. Here, the lost DPS is unlikely to be a major issue, as you're already losing a little relative to BiS by not having Ascension pieces, and since you're pugging, you're much more likely to get saddled with a healer who's new or bad. If you do that, having 8-10% DR from TEN can help you a fair bit and make the healer's job that much easier, while the extra DPS is unlikely to get the enemies dead in time to matter. The closer to optimal everyone's playing, though, the less this helps. I do it, and it's helped me a fair chunk in random content where I've been saddled with bad healers or slow DPS, but if I were going to start doing Savages, I'd definitely re-meld all my gear with CRI > DH >= DET (and replace two Aug Diadochos pieces with Aug Credendum).
So, I heard there is a specific corner case for TEN being "useful" which is for a sole-Warrior tank main, not an omni-tank main, as DH is not as useful in WAR burst windows due to how IR works, therefore I've heard that melding more TEN over DH, again as just a WAR player, would be a bit more beneficial. Is this still the case or is it such a corner case that it really doesn't matter?
This corner case was true back when Direct Hit was useless on Guaranteed Direct Hits. After there was a mechanical change to how Guaranteed Crits/Direct Hits work, so that they now get additional bonus damage from critical hit *rate* and direct hit *rate*, Warriors now also prefer Direct Hit. But this was indeed true for a while!
They could scale your defensives with tenacity so the base skill without any extra tenacity melds would give about 10% mit. But if you have tenecity, it adds to that so it'd be 28.5%. And what if you stack tenecity like crazy and had rampart give a 30 something % mit and your venegence/shadow wall give something stupid like a 56 % mit. People will probably just find the bare minimum amount to not die, but it'd make it more interesting during prog.
If it worked this way, depending on how high it would go, there might be amounts of Tenacity that would enable unusual strategies that could make things easier. That would certainly be more helpful than what we have now I think!
It could be funny if max tenacity pulling all cooldowns + good group mitigation from Healers/DPS stacking theirs on top was sufficient to allow solo tanking on some fights.
As a World of Warcraft player (though not played FFXIV), this is interesting to watch. Tenacity is basically same thing as the Versatility stat in WoW, except versatility increases damage/healing twice as much as its damage reduction, unlike FFXIV tenacity. It also doesn't scale completely linearly and instead starts to drop off a little after a certain threshold. It's considered a decent if not outright great stat for tanks, but can also be used by all classes/specs in the game. Most DPS don't really care for Versatility in PvE, but in PvP it's the best-in-slot "secondary" stat for all specs in the game (though for some of them it's tied with Haste), appears on all PvP-specific pieces and up until recently the PvP trinket-set bonus used to buff this stat specifically for PvP (they've since changed it to buff primary stat + stamina, but versatility still remains the best-in-slot secondary for PvP). Then again, you say that for some fights the healer doesn't even have to cast heals on the tank directly. In WoW, even with a tank spec with self-healing that potentially rivals the healer's overall healing output (Blood Death Knight), that still isn't the case. In WoW, sooner or later the tank WILL take damage that WILL have to be healed either primarily or assisted by the healer and there is no exception to that unless you are completely overgeared for the content you're running. (technically the same also goes for DPS: while a lot of damage can be avoided, there's almost always damage that will occur or debuffs to be dispelled in some capacity that the healer will have to take care of.)
Indeed! I played wow for many years myself, and a key difference with ffxiv is that jobs have many ogcd actions that just do damage or heal. Imagine if druids could use wild growth as an ogcd, or life bloom. Or a paladin could use holy shock as an ogcd. These kinds of features mean that healers have most of their gcd healing tools by level 50 or so, and while potent, you get so many ogcd options that as long as everyone knows what they're doing, the healer rarely has to use anymore than just the ogcds! A key reason why versatility is considered a lot more helpful in wow I think is also because the toolkits of the wow tanks are far more varied, some have more effective hp out the box, others have less. Some have very strong cooldowns, others have a larger quantity of weaker cooldowns. And ultimately, versatility is a reliable way to increase your hp. I think wow bosses are also less tightly balanced, because due to the sheer amount of gearing options in the game, the developers cannot know for sure how good your gear is, even as a minimum! So they sort of just have to estimate what they think is reasonable and go from there! I hope some of this clears some things up from a wow players perspective! I do appreciate your input to the conversation as well! 😊
Was trying to think of ways to make Tenacity worth using and the best I could come up with is tacking "extends duration of tank mitigation effects" to it. Maybe every 1% Tenacity adds .25 secs to all your tank effect durations which would be good for less skilled tanks without making it must have.
That is a very interesting way to add a unique benefit to Tenacity. Just thinking about it initially, adding a flat 0.25 second duration to tank effects (defensive cooldowns presumably) per 1% tenacity could lead to some quite wild things, Fully stacking Tenacity to reach 12% would give 3 seconds: Warrior: Bloodwhetting for 11 seconds to fit an additional GCD. Holmgang also lasts 13 seconds, so with just the one cooldown you would have 1 second of danger between them Dark Knight: The Blackest Night lasting 10 seconds instead of just 7 would make it a lot easier to break it even on small amounts of damage Paladin: What if Passage of Arms buff it applies to people behind you also got +3 seconds? Then it would be 8 seconds for the quick weave! Also, Cover lasting 15 seconds might also be super helpful for the team. In fact, for all four tanks, your defensive you can share with your cotank lasting longer might be supremely helpful, and might give rise to some sort of support style if it worked this way! I know its a rough suggestion, but I think adding some sort of unique secondary effect like this might be on the right track of what might make Tenacity effective without having to force it!
I remember Parry. Because I remember Dark Dance... And going head empty going Dark Arts Dark Dance during A12. Where it makes it dodge. Bosses never miss meaning you lost MP for DA AND didn't get a chance to trigger your Low Blow because you didn't parry for the proc. Fun times to be had.
I never got to try HW DRK but the idea of how it worked was very interesting. I suppose these kinds of issues, both bosses eliminating so much of your toolkit, but also the randomness in it, was the reason why they moved away from parry as a stat, and moved DRK away from that as well 😥
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It got worse as Reprisal (A mitigation) and Low Blow (just free damage) were, back then Parry reliant. And if you did Dark Arts Dark Dance by accident you lost out on damage as those two skills relied on Parry back then. I don't miss old Drk but I also love old Drk.
I put Tenacity in everything. I put tenacity on my sword. I put tenacity on my armor. I put tenacity on my dinner last night. I needed tenacity to survive it.
That is reasonable, and a specific use case for the stat: it very well helps compensate a bit if either the tank or healer needs a bit of extra help! 😊
I'm just spitballing here but why not make it so determination is a dps only stat like tenacity for tanks and piety for healers. Combine this with making tenacity and piety have the same scaling as determination and I feel like people would start using the two stats more often or at least they would seem more worthwhile.
Piety would probably need to have a damage increasing property added to it for people to want a lot of it, even if it scaled as well as determination! But other than that this could work! 😊
For some reason, it is decided that Direct Hit is a DPS stat, but for some reason it still works for tanks and healers. For that reason, Relic weapons for tanks and healers always lose out on Direct Hit as an option - similarly, Direct Hit is never found on tank or healer gear after I believe Heavensward! It is really weird!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh yea, that's only because preHW gear is usuable by more than it's Role... like some of the Melee gear in ARR is usable by Tanks too, even though it has significantly less DEF. IIRC even the HWpoeticAccessories are "all jobs", I'll sometimes see ppl using 2 diff rings probably because they dont notice the poeticRings are NOT-unique.
Aside from the option of removing Tenacity, there's also the option of having some abilities that scale with Tenacity. I also think both Tenacity and Determination should have what some other games call Spirit, where it impacts the value of INCOMING healing. Having this as a knock-on effect of the stat would make Crit vs Det a non-parallel - and therefore less "solved" - equation.
i think what they should do is, make tenacity scale the mits like rampart and shadow wall, sentinel, etc. for example, rampart doesnt give 20% mit, rather it gives 5% base mit + more 20% depending on tenacity amount = up to 25%, and also scale damage for tanks like determination but slightly less, that way it will become a standard to have tenacity for endgame gear and give a reason for tank players to get gear for progression
That is an interesting solution, to make the defensives require tenacity to be good 😊 My concern is that this would probably break the game quite badly in lower levels where you just don't have the option! 😅
Sounds like they can fix tenacity by having the defensive bonuses follow an additive equation and slightly lower the amount required for each increment.
Hmm, I know it isn't exactly what you meant, but if Tenacity was calculated to be added after all other defensives and then additively placed at the end, it might actually be incredibly strong - again, if we focus on the defensive value alone! Let me elaborate: If you have 10% Tenacity, and get hit for 10000 damage while you have Rampart (20% damage reduction) and, say, Holy Sheltron (27.75% damage reduction combined), then if you first note that Tenacity should take 10% off (1000), and then keep that for later, you can do 10000 * 0.8 = 8000 8000 * 0.7225 = 5780 and then 5780 - 1000 = 4780 with tenacity. Then by making it additive, in this example, Tenacity would be worth 17.3% instead of just 10%, making it have a positive relationship with defensive cooldowns rather than a negative one!
I would like to see SE redesign Tenacity and Piety to make them truly the mastery stats for healers and tanks. Granting enhancement to core skills while providing around the same damage capability as Direct Hit.
That's the weird thing! It's reasonably possible that even if piety and tenacity gave like... 95% of the damage output that direct hit and determination grants, they'd possibly still be considered worse simply because damage and all that. So whatever it would take to make the stats considered "good", would also immediately make them superior to the other damage stats that provide nothing else than damage! 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Acutually if you make tenacity's coeff to be 130 instead of currently 112 (DET has a coeff of 140) , then it will make TNC worth picking when planning BIS (roughly 77 : 23 bewteen DET and TNC) since DET and TNC scales multiplicatively in between them. Sorry for my inaccurrate english😂
@@captainveryslow6325 That is a very good point, eventually Tenacity could be high enough that adding it to the things you multiply together for damage would be optimal!
the biggest things that ive come across on why these stats are opt for is entierly how they design the fights. tank busters and aoes get alined with CDs so the need to having the extra damage reduction is ether to prevent 1 shot range(which is only a few melds) or trying to force a obserdly specific break point on something that is at best 1 fight or 1 instance that is team dependent. i havnt done much of savage tier stuff as a white mage main, but the ranges of when to heal or let the regen finish the top off almost never adds a extra cast reducing dps time because of the instances of them needing to be at max hp again forces the healers to focus on healing. these instances would basicly have the tanks dmg reduction they spec for equal to 1 extra cast of healing at minimum to even be considered. going off 15%, you would need to heal 7 times in 1 instance to even notice if that would be a difference, and thats not even including crit heal RNG. infact mistakes add a extra cast because extra damage was taken. even in healing the others because of these mistakes, i just sometimes let the regen do its work anyways that was shoved out for the tank 80% of the time because its not drasticly needed unless a mechanic/aoe shows up(this particularly differs a lot for harder content for how often)
Indeed, part of the problem is that fights are designed around the cooldowns the tanks have in some way, so it isn't going to throw more at you than what your group has tools for. And as long as that holds true, tenacity won't help much 😅
Thanks for the detailed information, although it left me a bit desillusioned. xD It's hard for me to accept that Tenacity is so bad, especially when the devs put max Tenacity or Piety on Savage gear. Both the current ilvl 660 savage gloves and augmented ilvl 660 tome stone gloves have Tenacity, so you can't even avoid increasing the stat as a Tank. Makes you wonder why the devs are so insistent on having these stats still in the game. In comparison, a DPS will never have useless stats on their max ilvl gear. To be honest that probably wouldn't be an issue for me if the difficult content would be designed in a way where you actually need extra mitigation / healing.
It sucks when you find out something cool isn't as exciting as you hoped! The stats on gear vary, and if the devs always put the best stats on all gear, then they would remove even the choice for the player to do something else! Just as an example, All three Ranged Physical jobs (Bard, Machinist, Dancer) see very little benefit in Skill Speed, at all, but they still have gear with the stat on it. As far as these jobs are concerned, Skill Speed might as well be worse than finding Tenacity on a Tank gear piece!😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It's true that having a choice is important for the game. I think it would be even better if the other option would actually be viable. And Speed most of the time is not viable, let alone Tenacity or Piety. That's why I think the choise is an illusion at that point; you're bound to prefer Crit / DHit = Det in almost all cases. Taking you example, Phys Range at least can bypass the Skill Speed by taking either tome sone gear or savage gear to not have any point on SkS, but with Tanks this tier this is impossible. In the end it's no big deal either way, you could easily do enough damage as a tank even with max Tenacity, it just makes me wonder why this is still in the game.
And after at least two expansions of having no one caring about yellow materia; why don't they tweak the stats of them to make them good? 🤷 (And purple ones too)
Good news, max tenacity gave us a clear on trial roulette vs cruise chaser! Right at the end of the fight the boss managed to cast confusion on everyone (you hit teammates with auto attacks) and the boss also cast bunch of AOEs under us and we could only wait out the timer while everyone was dying, when eventually there were only me and the main tank WAR, both hitting eachother with auto attacks but thanks to me having tenacity on every gear piece in a synched down content so i took about 300dmg less with each hit than him until he died, then there was only a few seconds of the debuff remaining and i was spamming my living dead button like crazy and managed to activate it just before the boss would land the killing blow on me, i managed to heal up to full and kill the boss since it had 6% hp remaining Its a great story but yeah...tenacity saves might be more rare than people winning in the lottery 😂
Tenacity is actually even worse when compared to Crit, since Crit rating also increases the damage of a Crit. You gain a 0.1% increase to both Rate and Damage per every 9.5 points of Critical Hit beyond the base.
This is true, but I also included this in the calculations in the video! 😊 The main thing I chose to leave out is that raid buffs, and certain job specific actions can make crit even better since, as you also mentioned, the crit Stat also boosts the crit damage! 😁
Yeah Tenacity has been pretty bad for a long time, but recently I've found that skill speed has been even worst then Tenacity, I used to lament getting gear with crit ten but now I hate getting crit sks because not only is the dps gain from sks a complete joke, but it has the added flaw of messing up my rotation by making me be too early for my reopener every minute, making me take an extra gcd and effectively delaying my reopener over the course of a fight, resulting in me being an additional 5 seconds late every 2 minutes.
Indeed, the fact that paladin especially, just really doesn't want speed, has caused a lot of tanks to avoid speed entirely, and discovered certain benefits of zero speed that makes it very awkward when you suddenly have some speed you never signed up for 😅 It is a very good point, and I wonder if the two minute burst itself is partly to blame for this problem!
This video is very good and informative and mathematically correct, and I think that's why it makes me so goddamn *mad.* This game is literally too stripped down and simplified in its current incarnation to host any mechanics other than 'deal damage'. DR doesn't matter because all damage taken is either calculated to be survivable, or instantly lethal, such as the hard enrage you run into if you didn't deal enough damage. Healing output doesn't matter because healer kits are designed to automate the process and the worst case scenario is 'asking the healer to spend a GCD healing, and thus not dealing damage'. As someone who mained Samurai back in Shadowbringers I can tell you right now that if you gave me the old Astro Haste card in 2023, I would find out where you lived and shove you into a locker, because literally the job design can't even fathom accommodating the simple joy of 'going faster should imply more damage'. The only reason Materia as a mechanic exists is so the devs can make you do roulettes so you can stack Crit on top of DH, or Determination if you're specifically playing Warrior. The only reason we even have Black Mage and its whopping two types of rotation based on your stat build is because Yoshi P is too precious about the job to let it get changed too much, and even then sometimes I feel like BLM mains are on a doom timer until that gets 'ironed out' too. There are not enough axes of interaction with the video game for 'playing well' to mean anything other than making your ACT display a higher number, and thus it becomes the whole video game. The core gameplay at this point is literally too flimsy to host any mechanics capable of inspiring higher thought. I don't know what they could do to fix it, but I know for sure that I probably made a mistake resubbing to play level 80 BLU this month. I just can't play any level of content in this game and *not* think about all this.
It is an unfortunate revelation when optimization reaches it's peak, and I think that both stats would need some changes, but also how jobs approach both healing and tanking to fix it. But how exactly I don't know - I see this same kind of hyper optimization in other games too: why take defense when you could take offense 😕
I've only ever actively looked to use Tenacity is if I'm leveling a tank job. The damage reduction it offers is not much, but often I felt it was enough to allow wall to wall while healers can keep up with a bit more breathing space, I'm looking at you, Bardam's Mettle! But when it comes to post-leveling dungeons for any expansion, I drop that stuff immediately and focus on the better stats since gear scales out the dungeon a lot more.
Tenacity basically can't be allowed to be good. Because of its general benefits, it'd be unreasonable for the offensive part of the stat to be competitive with other stats that provide no defensive utility. The defensive side only becomes considered if it's required to mitigate certain mechanics which means it's now mandatory and therefore the offensive benefits are just a compensation for not being able to choose offensive stats. ...Which isn't actually that different from the current state of things because outside of niche circumstances or very specific content, you're best served exclusively by picking the mathematical optimal offensive stats. It gives the illusion of choice because nothing has a meaningful impact on rotation and just ends up being a passive addition to what you were already doing so you might as well make number as big as possible. For the same reason that Tenacity doesn't actually change the AoE healing required, I'd actually say that Crit isn't a very good healing stat most of the time. Unless every hit of whatever healing ability or spell you used is a Crit, it doesn't actually change the amount of resources you'll have to use. You still have to use the same overall cooldowns to heal the party, especially with how formalized healing plans are in coordinated raid content. The current design of FFXIV allows for essentially no flexibility in stat choices. You're either choosing the optimal damage stats, or are choosing something wrong even it makes the game feel better. I prefer Det over Crit/DHit because I value consistency over the higher maximum potential of the RNG stats but it's still the wrong decision for maximizing output. In an ideal world, I'd want Skill/Spell speed combined and the math changed to be a direct competitor to Crit, enabling the stylistic decision to choose a fast rotation with more burst windows that do less, or a slow rotation with potentially heavy-hitting burst windows that are dependent on Crit/DHit RNG. This would require some changes to the 2-minute burst design since accelerating a rotation would naturally drift out of that window. A far less interesting but far more easy idea would be to stop pretending that Skill/Spell Speed is a real stat outside of BLM and hyper-specific circumstances and give all classes preset GCDs to be designed around. Well... That ended up getting away from me, haha. Ah well.
Very good point! Given how crit scales, I think if they made tenacity scale as well as determination, I actually think optimizing tanks would still choose crit first, and then simply prioritize tenacity over determination, because the damage reduction is valued so incredibly low that I wouldn't be surprised if someone chose +0.1% damage done over -10% damage taken 😅 Buffing speed would also be interesting. Given the whole burst window meta, it would be incredibly difficult to make it competitive for most jobs, but it certainly doesn't help that speed doesn't scale that well. In fact, you could probably buff speed very substantially, so that in a vacuum it's better than crit, and people would still choose to prioritize crit because it is better in burst windows 😅 Overall, stats like speed and tenacity, that do other things that make attack numbers bigger, are far more interesting to me, and I'd rather see them be more competitive even if it overshadows the other stats as a result 😄
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Completely agreed. Interesting stats that do more than just make numbers bigger are much more compelling, though I understand that they do make balance harder. Considering how tight the balance is for FFXIV, compared to other MMOs at least, this might be incompatible with their current philosophy. It also doesn't help that Spell Speed suffers a lot of the same problems for casters that Skill Speed used to for physical classes when TP was a thing. BLM skirts around this by having its MP recovery phase, but RDM and SMN are both already dependent on Lucid Dreaming just to be able to do their job.
Doesn't anything that sync your gear down remove your materia stats entirely? So if your gear doesn't have DH and you meld DH then anything you run that syncs your armor down you still won't be able to do any direct hits due to all the allocation being on materia?
That is correct yes 😊 it would naturally also remove tenacity melds and crit melds and determination melds too of course. Bards give a direct hit rate buff with both one of their songs, and battle voice, so that would still allow you to direct hit. Otherwise, only warrior among tanks and healers can direct hit at all when all gear is synced down 🤔😊
Of course! Item level is always more important than the optimal secondary stats, and tenacity isn't so bad that it's worse than nothing! This is mainly a matter of concern when targeting a stat to get more of! 😄
Rule of thumb, you are only going to need to worry about secondary stats when going through BiS gear sets, and you'll only really need those if you do really high end content.
Very true! Technically no one's going to get mad at you for choosing tenacity in casual content! This video just serves to try and guide you on whether that is a good decision! 😊
for future builds (endgame content) you'll just check what's BiS and go with it, you can go about it yourself, but the hardware has already been figured out. some will theory craft on patch day when new gear gets released, but that'll be generally a few hours to maybe a day (depending how busy that specific job community is) and then it's back to business. they'll also just tell you stat priority for materia melds.
A reasonable question! 😊 Crit should be prioritized. Determination and direct hit are point for point extremely close, but because of that, and how stats interact with each other, having a balanced mix of determination and direct hit tends to be better than just having a ton of one of them. Healer gear never naturally has direct hit on them, so the only way to get any direct hit in the first place is to meld it with materia. As a side effect of that, healers (and tanks) always have way less direct hit than determination, thereby making direct hit more valuable. The reason why some guides (not all) will suggest ignoring direct hit is because it does not give the healer any bonus to their healing. And if the guide creator believes the healing bonus determination provides is valuable enough, they will suggest avoiding direct hit, because the average damage gain from choosing direct hit melds over, say, determination, is small, but significant. However the extra healing from melding that instead is also... very small 😅 Long story short: to maximize damage output, which is important for healers too, do crit>dh>=det, placing spell speed somewhere in the priority depending on which healer, and piety depending on what you need. The >= notation means that direct hit is considered better or equal to determination depending on how much you have (but healers usually never reach the point where they are actually equal!) All of my healer guides also reflect this, and as one other example, The Balance's guides also reflect this 😊 I hope this helps!
All of this presumes that everyone knows what they're doing. It's a great guide for high end play. But dying with randos feels a lot worse than your dungeon taking 20s longer on average.
That is also why I highlighted that tenacity is helpful if the tank or healer is less skilled, and the value of tenacity drops as they get more skillful 😊 So while the statement that tenacity is bad is assuming everyone knows what they're doing, I did highlight the value it might provide as training wheels! 😊 In fairness, if your tank or healer is less skilled, you are probably "losing" far more time to either of them not doing their rotations right as well, which is far more critical (pun intended), than having "the best stats" 😄
It's funny cause in Wow there is a stat like this called Versatility, but every single job can get it and it is significantly more impactful often being the best substat for every job.
Indeed! I think part of the reason is that boss mechanics are often wildly different in damage numbers in WoW, not to mention stuff like M+ where sometimes unavoidable boss mechanics can scale so far out of proportion that you need this versatility to even live it!
The only positive I can give you is in dawntrail they buffed tenacity some more, so it is about 80% of the effectiveness of determination now. However all the points in the video still apply. The main thing is that because of the distance being a bit shorter now, sometimes it can be beneficial to take some (some) tenacity for the damage it provides due to how it would stack multiplicatively with determination and direct hit and crit. But it's rather specific and still misses the point of tenacity also giving damage reduction 😅
Sounds like an issue that could just be solved by adjusting tenacity to 1% damage resistance, damage dealt, and healing received per 90 tenacity. It would still be less damage than crit, det, and direct hit, but at 2670 tenacity that would be ~30% of each factor. It would be much more valuable to tanks as -30% Damage taken is like having a permanent defensive cd up, and +30% healing received makes healers jobs a lot easier than a tiny 12%. They'd have to rescale the "per X" measurement by level or item level though (whichever they use for other stats) so that you're not able to stack it up to 50% or even 100% in future expansions. Ideally it would be 30% by the last patch of the expansion if all gear was given tenacity materia only. テナシティを 1% のダメージ耐性、与えられるダメージ、90 テナシティあたりの回復量に調整するだけで解決できる問題のように思えます。 それでもクリティカル、決意、直撃よりもダメージは少ないですが、2670 の粘り強さでは各要素の最大 30% になります。タンクにとっては、受けるダメージが -30% になると永続的な防御クールダウンがかかるようなものとなり、受ける回復量が +30% になるとヒーラーの仕事がわずか 12% よりもはるかに簡単になるため、はるかに価値があります。ただし、将来の拡張で 50% または 100% まで積み上げることができないように、レベルまたはアイテム レベル (他のステータスに使用する方) ごとに「90 あたりの粘り強さ」の測定値を再スケールする必要があります。理想的には、すべてのギアが粘り強くスロットに配置されていれば、拡張の終わりには 30% になります。
1% per 90 points is better than all the other stats actually. Crit is 1% per 95 points It would be considered on par with Determination if it was 135 points per 1% Tenacity, and since Tenacity does mostly the same as Determination (and then some) it would be the better choice. Notably, Tenacity also does not increase healing received, that is an issue with the word choice in the tooltip! It just affects healing done by yourself. However, for comparison, Determination only boosts healing from Spells, so thats actually worse! The amount of stats you need to reach certain amounts of percentage is always scaled to your level. For example, you get +0.1% Tenacity for *every* point of tenacity when you are at level 1 to 16 So this will automatically be balanced as higher levels become available! The key problem is that by design of fights in FFXIV, the damage reduction from Tenacity is almost considered irrelevant outside of week 1 prog groups on savage or harder content. So as long as Tenacity's damage increasing component is weaker than the competition, optimization will always view it as inferior, although, if it was just somewhat closer to the other stats, I imagine the majority of the player base would look at the stat a lot more favorably too
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Perhaps I did the calculation wrong then, if per 135 is on par with determination, then it would make more sense to have the 3 things tenacity modifies go to per 145 or per 150. On non-tank classes it should definitely stay at per 190. The healing thing should definitely be swapped from % healing done to % healing taken though. I think that makes more sense because paladin and dark knight barely get anything out of % healing done. The design of fights also can be changed, I know the dev team doesn't always like making harder fights cause some people complain about it, but there is an ilvl minimum so having harder hitting tank busters and giving tanks higher health pools so they don't just get healed to full by 1-2 raid-wide heals would definitely make the stat more valuable.
Feel like a good way to make tenacity popular is to make it so DirectHit is a DPS-only stat (literally, like how tenacity says Tank && piety says Healer... yes, i'm aware that tank/healer gear does NOT have DH naturally, but you can still meld it). PLD would prob be crit>det>ten at least (since skillspeed has no effect on your magiccombo, SkS is less potent on a PLD) DRK/WAR/GNB would prob be crit>det>speed>tenacity. OR just get rid of tenacity entirely & make it so Determination has a sentence saying "Tank-only: takes less dmg"
Yeah it is really weird that tanks and healers can get direct hit melds, while dps can't even choose to meld tenacity or piety (even if they'd never have a reason to) There's even a possibility that the other tanks would also prefer tenacity over speed for certain builds, but who knows for sure! Back when direct hit was considered nearly useless for warriors, they preferred tenacity! 😊
yea, most dmg in savages are raidwides/aoes... and it doesn't matter if the tank takes 0dmg; the healer will still have to use aoeHeals to heal the other people.
the healing part can't be overlooked either, I've healed my dps through dead's end when the healer has dropped, ive also saved a healer by giving them 50% of their health back thanks to a heal
That is very true! But in most situations, critical hit can help with that just as well if not better given how it scales better the more you have of it! 😊 But it is true that tenacity just generally becomes better in a *defensive* situation like surviving! 😀
@byrner510 true but in this case the the comparison is significantly further apart 😊 if you were offered £60 28% of the time, it would certainly seem more enticing! Especially when you are in a situation where £10 just won't be good enough 😁 (yes the distance in healing power is that vast between a crit bonus and tenacitys reliable bonus!)
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I agree Crit is the best dps stat in the game and it is broken. i understand how powerful it is. without going into huge detail. crit can cause huge swings in output both healing and dps. I feel the fact we are comparing the stat to universally agreed best stat that it has a place and stacking it while not the best is viable for non optimal circumstances and could bring out a higher average given a string of bad RNG by the crit stacker. your video was well structured and i enjoyed it. Cancel Reply
@byrner510 I'm sorry my example maybe was a bit too optimized for crit. You are absolutely right that tenacitys reliability can outweigh the swing power of crit, and in a desperate situation, even if a big swing is more likely to save the day, reliability gives a stronger foundation to survive on. And that is of course both with tenacitys healing, and it's damage reduction combined! Thank you very much for the nice words! 😊
it is weird how in an mmo, tank and healer "main" stats mean so little. the game just feels like a dps simulator. theres now real aggro management, spot healing, or cleansing requirements. everything is on a very strict timeline so you just dps with the occasional cd pop. the only time i tanks take any real dmg was with the p8s p2 autos but even those were timed.
It is quite weird. I wonder if it is entirely to blame on encounter design and job design, but it is at least very much because of that. The over optimization that the player base itself has figured out might also not have helped 😅
Was a Tenacity Tank when it was Available to pick in Heavensward's Relic Weapons. Was a Tenacity Tank in Endwalker and will be a Tenacity Tank in Dawntrail. Fite me.
Of course, it is probably perfectly fine to do that for casual content, and as long as your group isn't like... Parser speedrunner types, then savage shouldn't be an issue either in most situations assuming you so that 😊
I don't know im a bit iffy on it because i noticed between two builds i was taking high amounts of damage and was more "squishy" with little tenacity than another build with tenacity. If you want to put your healers to work do it man. Make peoples day. xD
Indeed, the comparison between *maximum* tenacity and minimum (zero) is around 12% damage taken, but often, it's more the difference of some gear pieces and some melds, so more likely closer to 5 or 6%. Sometimes, I feel weirdly squishy if my healer isn't great, so it is just as much a possibility if it was random healers in your groups, that you simply had worse healers when you were using the low tenacity setup 😊
What about a solo Scenario? Could Tenacity be worth a shot (so stacking up on this stat) for solo kills in Stormblood Savage/EX Trials etc.? Espacially for Warrior because the extra plus on his Self-Heal? Great Vidos i love to watch these ;)
Thank you very much! 🥰 Usually when soloing old content unsynced, the problem isn't the overall damage you take, and only attacks that are impossible to survive. Like one shots, or hard enrages! For that reason, maximizing damage turns around and stays important! 😅 If you are in the business of soloing content synced for instance just for the fun and enjoyment, I could imagine tenacity might be great for that! 🤔😊
Thing with something like this is as the game continues it's vertical progression that number is going to keep going up and up and up and eventually hit a critical point where it suddenly becomes a must have stat on gear assuming of course no changes occur to tenacity as if they increase the conversion rate it reaches that break point sooner that is the issue with stats like this in games with vertical progression system they may not seem powerful now but given enough time they can get out of hand
Normally you'd be right, but in games like ffxiv that have effective stat "resets" with each new expansion, the stats simply never get the chance to go off in a crazy direction! The stat values I demonstrated in this video is the peak that we will reach in endwalker. When we level up to 100 in the next expansion, the amount you need to reach, say, 12% tenacity will increase accordingly. Meaning that the amount of tenacity needed to get 0.1% will be significantly higher than 19 to balance it. As such, as long as they don't give us drastically more stats to work with, this will never get out of hand 😅
Since, for the most part, the damage reduction portion of Tenacity is viewed as irrelevant, it would need to be at least on par with Determination to be considered - thats 40% stronger. And if that happens, then Tenacity will simply replace either Determination or Direct Hit. Rather than become "viable", it becomes the mandatory priority instead ^^'
Yeah thats true, it is essentially Versatility. The key difference between them is that stats in WoW tends to be able to scale a lot higher throughout an expansion. So if you wanted to, you might be able to stack Versatility to a point where it really starts to make a difference!
The only reason paladins are even interested in tenacity is because sometimes the choice is "do you want speed or tenacity?" and paladins value speed so low in fact, that I am confident some paladins would rather have nothing than speed 😅
I will never change my mind of placing MAX possible tenacity on a DRK since its the only tank that allows you to stand in AOE´s with TBN + shadow wall so you dont have to do mechanics on normal content and seeing that 0 damage taken just gives me a big smile, but TENACITY on any other tank like PLD/GNB/WAR just sucks ass, so tenacity is only for DRK since they have the strongest shields in the whole game when you buff them with tenacity *EDIT* playing max tenacity saved my ass on 11th circle of pandemonium when i managed to get 5 stacks of VUL since i did the colour mechanic wrong only to get hit by a tank buster right after that, but thanks to tenacity i survived with 9% hp!
The weird thing is that TBN is a shield that is designed to be broken, so I imagine a lot of DRKs would rather have less tenacity so it breaks more consistently 😂 However gigantic shields can often allow you to do game breaking stuff like ignoring certain mechanics, which is quite funny! 😁
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Yeah i know :D, but i love TENACITY DRK for just that reason and i have tried tenacity on other tanks too but only DRK has made it work like i want, oh and be proud of your video it was fantastically made!
the point for the tenacity fact stuff we can all hold on is simply that: crit, det and dh are more highly increasing dps stats than tenacity, tenacity overall is better than the accuracy we had back in heavensward, you dont want accuracy back man, i rather take that useless stat with me than a stat that determines if i can even hit from front, sides and back of a boss. but the fights arent designed in the game with tenacity in mind. most savage and ultimate bosses need to be invul anyways on a tankbuster or tankswaped. you as tank should know it will hit absolutely the crack out of you, so you use atleast 2-3 cds on savage tankbusters(rather last 2 bosses, the first 2 are kinda childplay on tankbusters) but there will never be a situation where you died to a tankbuster with cooldowns because your tenacity was to low...such bullshit stat. could swap that stat out with like...fat cat belly to reduce dmg taken by 1% for every second you lay on the ground dead.
This video made me sad. I'm fairly new (still doing heavensward MSQ) and i was prioritizing tenacity for my tank and piety for my healer until now. They are role-specific stats, for crying out loud! 😢
While making your way through the msq, the item level tends to be more crucial, but it does really suck that the role specific stats are, at best, situationally good 😥
My father told me if I ever melded for Tenacity that he would beat me senseless with a set of jumper cables. It's good to have some context as to why he's so passionate about this
I hope they go more interesting route with stat like Bozja and Zadnor in future expansion like 8.0 or even 9.0 because the way it is going, it is very lackluster and it really needs things spiced up.
.0015% dps difference for every point of tenacity you have vs using direct hit. dps difference between crit is nearly impossible to calculate accurately due to crit variance, but on a good crit run the dps difference would be far more than this per point of tenacity. So, lets say you melded like 150 points of tenacity where you could have instead melded direct hit. You would lose 2.25% damage. With that being said, its not a terrible stat at all it all depends on what you are using it for. It is jus an unnecessary and inefficient stat in general, however it can be a good idea to run pentamelded tenacity on gear during progession and many week 1 tanks may want to go that route (I don't know any personally, but the balance does post tenacity prog sets on their discord so there must be some people that use them or why would they bother?) but ye, don't use it tbh I never used it and I do just fine.
A very good run down! I believe on week one there is a higher possibility that your lower ilvl compared to the later bosses may be too much at times. Others also suggested that tenacitys insurance policy like property can help with letting you prog further and see more in an attempt while still working your way to enrage 😊 like, it's all about just surviving to see more mechanics! But as you said, the stat isn't actually terrible, the reality is that the majority of situations that you may be put in simply doesn't serve tenacity well, making all other stats that provide more damage better!
I have it in my notes to make one yes! Thank you for letting me know you are interested by the way! :D And yeah that is a strange suggestion from your static! xD
I'd argue that Tenacity can be good when learning a fight (especially blind), mostly due to the passive mitigation on auto-attacks. If you're focusing on the fight and trying to recognize patterns, it can be easy to forget about mitigating auto attacks, which can add up to a substantial amount of incoming damage over the course of a fight (especially in older fights where boss autos can crit).
Doing the comparison to healers seem absolutely wrong to me, I myself found a ton of instances where a few bit more heals does save a life (like under 100 health difference), especially during progging where mistakes are abound, and gears are under leveled. Meanwhile, you could exchange that tiny sliver of healing power for 300% more damage if you want to; if you can't get anywhere near enrage, your damage does not matter at all.
It is surprising that you have a ton of instances where it made a difference, but it is often easier to remember the bad times where you wiped, than the times where it didn't make a difference. However, you are absolutely correct that during prog, both Tenacity on tanks, and Determination and Piety on Healers are significantly more valuable due to their more defensive properties allowing you to push further when learning the fight at first. This is often also more important when you are undergeared for the fight, especially in the first few weeks of a raid tier, since there the damage from enemies can sometimes be just on the edge. But as more gear is accumulated, these defensive stats are considered less and less important
I think what would have taken this video to the next level was a bit of math on how much scaling tenacity would need to be worthwhile. Right now it's 1% per 190. But would it be a viable stat choice at 1.5%? 2%? etc.
I show that all the other stats are 40% better at boosting your damage than tenacity is, and then explain why the damage reduction is often considered irrelevant. From there, I think tenacity would need a 40% buff before people would view it as a good stat, even though at that point, it would be objectively better than determination specifically, due to having the damage reduction. I don't see a huge problem with this though since tenacity is a role specific stat anyway 😊
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Tenacity wouldn't need to be equal to det, honestly. To make up some numbers, lets say 100 det = +10%, to gain another 10% from det alone would require you to reach 210 det (1.1x1.1 = 1.21). On the other hand, if 110 tenacity was +10%, now 100 det + 110 ten = +21%, vs 210 det = +21%. Of course, if TEN=DET, then people would take equal TEN to DET and DH... and the end result is just a slight boost to tank survivability. As long as TEN is close enough to DET/DH that with realistic numbers some TEN would actually be a DPS gain, then it would at least make gearing a bit more interesting for BiS by carefully weighing which TEN piece(s) to take. Piety on the other hand is a whole different beast.
the quality/price is way too low to be interesting, but i prefer tenacity over skill speed everyday :D and the damage reduction is not necessary so we prefer to go the damage route
What if tenacity had the same interaction crit buffs do to certain attacks, but to defense cooldowns. For example, imagine Rampart increases in damage reduction the more tenacity you have. I'm not that smart when it comes to min maxing these stats, I'm really casual, so maybe that wouldn't change anything
I think it is an interesting suggestion, as it would certainly enable tenacity to do some more exciting things than it does right now! The exact percentages can be difficult to figure out, but I get the idea! I saw someone else also suggested having tenacity affect the duration of defensive cooldowns, which is another thing that could lead to some very interesting decisions! 😁
Tenacity has its place in one specific scenario: Queuing with healers you don't know. People complain about weak tanks and healers, but they usually can at least function. Honestly, 1/10th of the tanks or healers you end up with though... are complete hot garbage. The number of times I've had to compensate as one or the others is insane. Tanks not using any mitigation on wall-to-walls (effectively not understanding how they work), or healers not doing anything but spamming Cure or Diagnosis and being confused that it's not effective. If you're the tank, then having some tenacity compensates for a random dungeon healer being sketchy. Just don' t be toxic and try to tell them how to play the game. Save trying to chat with them for when they dungeon is ending, and be considerate when you do. You'd be shocked how many players aren't actually 'bad' but just have, say, leveled White Mage in PVP and have no idea Freecure is a trap, or bought into the hype and overvaluing of Kardia as a healing tool, and just could use somebody nice having a quick and positive chat with them.
I had a c1 spamming healer in a ShB or EW dungeon (cant remember which by now). Normally I'm a very permissive person, but this person did NOTHING but c1. Not even the free c2 of afflatus solace. No oGCDs, NOT EVEN THIN AIR FOR FREE CURE 2s. On top of that, our DPS was pretty low due to no healer dps and one of the dps playing very sub par. After almost dying to a single pull I said something along the lines of 'maybe using only the heal you unlocked at level 2 might not cut it in higher level content', and left. I don't normally do that stuff, but that somehow broke me.
I've had a similar experience a few times. I usually bring it up once when I spot it, but if they keep on spamming heals like that, I will just finish the dungeon as normal anyway. I will however pull more than usual if I can, and be lazier with my defensives sometimes 😉 gotta get some value out of that heal bot right?!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I actually had an argument with a red mage in a dungeon once who was telling his healer friend to ignore my advice / that I was wrong. It was Sunken Temple of Qarn, which old hands will tell you can't be healed with Cure alone due to the alligators hitting like trucks and the dangerous bees (you need to DPS them down to stop final sting), plus no decent tank cooldowns are available yet. We were living on my stuns to stop the stings and kiting mobs up and down stairs. It wasn't the first or last time I had to kite mob packs as a tank, but having to do it over and over in the same dungeon was grating, so I gave the healer a few pointers politely. The healer tried casting Cure II, went "Oh, this is much better" and never went back. His friend whined that he was listening to 'an idiot' and that his friend was wasting MP by not using Freecure. It's like... everybody has 10k MP now, my guy. Freecure is obsolete... my main class has always been a healer, btw, and my first class in this game was a White Mage. I knew what I was talking about.
@@fuzzwobble Freecure is generally considered a noob trap by most players, because healers tend to have plenty of MP to go around, but new players might not realize that. And it doesn't help that most jobs have only traits that are genuinely helpful, so looking at White Mage, or Astrologians toolkits, it reads as if you should be using Benefic/Cure I instead, to proc the greater option, but in both cases, it is just never actually worth it due to the low proc chance, and low payoff Good thing that the healer listened to your advice!
I think one useful way to look at that multiplicative aspect of tenacity and mit cooldowns is that if tenacity would grant you an additional 10% damage reduction or whatever, you can take whatever damage any attack does after all your mit (but before shields, unfortunately) and reduce that number by 10% to see the effect of the tenacity. Of course that works with deciding whether to add another mit to something as well.
The thing is that the fights that require the most optimal defensive cooldown management, tends to not have the tanks (or the group at large) run out of defensive cooldowns. As long as that is the case, then Tenacity's capacity to maybe save a cooldown down the line, isn't valuable enough 😅 But I see what you mean I think
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh yeah absolutely, this was just for the intuition side of additive vs. multiplicative mit. Additive makes it easy to say up front "I'm using a 30% and a 20%, so it'll be 50%" whereas multiplicative makes it easy to say "I used 30% and took 15k damage so if I use a 20% on top, it's 12k damage". People always go on about multiplicative mit being really unintuitive, but I think either one is more intuitive in different scenarios.
yeahhhh ... you are comparing 1% players to 99.9% players. Tenacity is better if you aren't the 1% of players at the top. On the damage bar, one must not look at the highest to get an accurate reading of the community. You should look at the median If you just like big numbers, then go for dps boost if you want to have a higher chance of completion, then go for Tenacity. If you are a 1%, go for whatever you want because it doesn't matter. Also as a healer, i do find it easier to dps when a tank goes for tenacity for dungeons. For higher than 4 people. It doesn't matter because it's all mechanics. The only thing you want more dps for is to skip the mechanics.
I only used the logs to demonstrate that a tanks damage is more than a healers damage, and for that, the logs are pretty good because they tend to showcase the approximate single target damage a job is capable of, with a decent spread. I even used the *median* of those logs for my demonstration. I even added that the numbers might be slightly different on aoe packs, but again, I only used the logs to demonstrate one thing! I feel like you are greatly underestimating the average skill level if you think only 1% of the tank players are capable of playing well enough for tenacity to not be worth it in dungeons, or that only 1% of the healer players are capable of playing well enough in dungeons that the tenacity is unneeded 😊 I also highly doubt you examine every tank you run dungeons with and check whether they have tenacity or not, and even if you did, the average tenacity stacking player is likely taking maybe 5-6% less damage than the average crit stacking tank due to how much tenacity you can meld or gear for typically, which is on top of other defensive cooldowns the tank (or you) might apply, becomes a minor detail on whether the tank needs so much healing that you need gcds for it or not. Sure, if the tank isn't using their cooldowns right, and the healer isn't using theirs right, then tenacity is likely helping them both, but as I mentioned in the video, it works more like training wheels than anything else 😁
@@CaetsuChaijiCh average players is subjective. I said median and nothing more. But if you want to mention average players, then I'll be honest. They are not the same as average raiders. And yes I don't examine every tank. I also tank, so I look at why this gunbreaker is tankier than the other and of course they run tenacity. I also dps, so I know when I'm pulling higher than someone with someone whom has higher item level Also, yes maybe I over exaggerated in the 1% I'll rephrase and say maybe 40% of players. Definitely the 20% of players FFXIV data collection is not as complete as wow data, so I don't know if the skill levels are the same percentage wise. All I know is that in wow. Roughly 15% of m+ people and up are barely able to do +18keys. From the video or looks like you are speaking to the average community, so I just assumed. If you are talking about a different group of folks then you are right
@@CaetsuChaijiCh but maybe you are right, the 5%-10% is not enough damage reduction for tank busters. it's more than enough for just dungeons though. I pull from wall to wall without using much damage reduction cd's unless there is a hard hitting trash. Like i said, if you are doing a raid setting then run what you want. If you want to skip mechanics, run dps. if you are too undergeared for content, then run tenacity.
The only realistic way of making both Piety and Tenacity good is by making them also affect Direct Hit Rate... granted this means they no longer become budget stats but in exchange make Direct Hit Materia somewhat less valuable on both tanks and healers... but for all I know that might make Direct Hit more valuable instead because people want max Direct Critical Hits... Damned if you, damned if you don't...
Indeed. By the way the game is designed right now, anything you can do to make Piety and Tenacity viable as a choice, would make them overtake a different stat completely. The problem is that they both interact with things in the game where its a very "Yes or No" situation: Do you have enough MP to last the whole fight? Alright then Piety is useless. Do you have the defensives you need to survive the fight, and can you survive all big attacks throughout the fight? Alright then Tenacity isn't helping. Making healers need more MP would make Piety more helpful, but... In a mandatory way. Making enemies hit harder would make Tenacity more helpful, but in a mandatory way. I am not sure what could be done to really make them a good choice without kicking a different stat down the stairs ^^'
Here are my wishes for substats in 7.0: 1) Buff Tenacity a LOT or at least make it scale better and redesign Piety to make them both viable stats for tanks and healers respectively which is even more necessary because of my 2nd suggestion 2) Make Direct Hit a DPS only substat and also buff this slightly by making it a chance to do an extra 33% instead of 25% more damage to offset the loss of DH affecting tanks/healers 3) Merge Skill/Spell Speed into a single Speed substat
That is a good start. Honestly, I wish Direct Hit would be changed to just be something else other than "also crit, but kinda a bit worse" ^^' Overall, I would wish for a bigger overhaul of the stats to do something more interesting with the stats we get!
![[FFXIV] Five Mistakes Tanks Make!](/img/n.gif)
As a WHM main, when my MP bar is empty, I don’t wish I had more piety, I wish people would stop getting hit by mechanics and dying six times in one pull.
I suppose that is fair too - that tends to be one of the ways you end up in that situation in the first place afterall!
Sprouts be like that!
That's just prog. lol. But yeah if people are dying too much just calculate if it's going to take longer than 30 minutes to finish the content and if it is, just leave, take the penalty and do something that won't make you rage at your screen.
Stop whining and do your job.
@@MadamePianissima stop walking into the aoes
Love these cohesive explorations into certain stats that generally people are told: "It's just bad. Facts" rather than the why it's bad when they're just starting to raid and have to actually pay attention to this stuff
I'm glad to hear that! Thank you so much! 😄
Yeah I feel it's a lot easier to make the right decision for yourself when you understand the why behind things, so I want to avoid the "it just is" kind of explanation if I can 😊 I'm glad it helps! 😄
So what I hear is Tenacity is bad. Got it.
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Sadly while details are nice and all, you can still just boil it down to. "Other stats deal more damage"
Im not sure how that can be fixed but thats pretty much the entire game currently.
As a Paladin main: How dare you insult me with the truth. 😭
I want tenacity (and piety) to be good, so badly. I love the idea of doubling down on your role and being extra good at tanking, or extra good at healing, but I can see how that would be difficult for the devs to balance. In the end, everything is just a dps check. 😞
I'm totally with you there, I wish tenacity was great! And with the way players have managed to perfect optimization, it is simply too hard to make content that makes tenacity good without it being outright mandatory 😞
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It is not just hard to do so, it is actually impossible. In any situation where tenacity is not mandatory, players will always prefer to forego it entirely in order to finish the fight faster. A better but non-mandatory tenacity stat might see increased use in prog, but that's all.
feel like a "bad but necessary" change would be to make it so DirectHit is a DPS-only stat... so at least now, tanks would be crit > det > speed/tenacity.
OR drop tenacity entirely, but add "**Tank classes take less dmg" to Determination.
I would LOVE for tenacity to be meaningful, but at the end of the day... the toughestfights are just DPSchecks, and tenacity's DPS is abouuuut 1/2 as good as Determination. Yes, having tenacity SHOULD mean the healers can DPS more... but most dmg in ToughFights is aoe, so healers would still have to heal the same~ amount to keep the Others alive.
In the grandscheme of things, Tenacity is more like TrainingWheels; something to fall back on when you're learning, where you're notAlways on top of mit'ing thingsThatMatter.
I find that Tenacity seems to matter more in lower level content where you don’t have as many cooldowns to use in general.
@@andrewdesalvatore7262So i dont know how it would effect the numbers but i like that idea tenacity could also raise crit, def, and determination but obviously at a smaller rate then boosting each of the stats individually
Cries in piety
That one's even more problematic in a way! 😭
that's why generally healers say "meld piety to comfort"
you don't technically need it, but might be for comfort to have a bit more than required and drop 0.2% dps so you can be more comfortable.
hell, DPS checks in FF14 are generally so generous that it's laughable, outside of ultimates, and even then it's just ToP now, the only time a DPS check matters in DSR is for the final phase as it's just stressfull and you need to keep your dps up while dodging run ending mechanics 18-19 minutes into a fight.
@@DarkDyllonyeah I don’t need much, 580-600 is fine and that’s on the high end. I do see differences though and it is nice seeing the difference but… It is more cost efficient and lower risk dealing more damage. People take less damage when enemies are dead.
@@DarkDyllon
To be fair mp management is also a joke on healers nowadays, if played well they can all perform very comfortably on base piety, even while needing to GCD heal throughout a fight and having to rez once or twice
piety is good ..... for farming blue and green materia
Honestly, I hope for 7.0 they retire tenacity and merge skill/spell speed. Even though most healers I know avoid piety like the plague, it still has a use in prog.
That could work. Maybe they could just make determination also contain tenacitys damage reduction for tanks specifically, which might switch things up a bit stats wise. Merging speeds is a good idea too.
And indeed, piety is a stat that at least sometimes is considered valuable!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh that's a great idea yeah! It would give determination melding some more consideration over direct hit. Right now (crit aside) I will meld as much direct hit until I hit the least wasteful stat tier and then meld det. If it contributed to defence in place of tenacity though, I might think twice.
@@Phoenix-cc7xb Solid names, yeah.
It would make it more useful overall honestly. Right now SkS is "useless" for PLD and DRK cause several skills are spells. It would introduce another layer of thought to substat optimisation that currently is (mostly) ignored in favour of "meld to comfort then stack crit>dhit>det"
i just wish the materia stats actually made any @#$%ing sense. on so we have critical hit, another critical hit thats named something different, tank and healer specific materia that dont do much, regular just do more damage, and speeds. dark souls has more clarity.
@@CaetsuChaijiChI think in addition to buffing tenacity, one if the current damge stats was made dps only, prop direct hit
Having to put tenacity on my relics for this most recent step because skill speed messes my rotations is a big feels bad moment.
Very relatable! I have done the same!
Ah, another Paladin main I see 😄
You know, you could put crit, det and dh on your relic if sks messes you up 😂
Tank and healer relics are never offered direct hit as an option 😊
@@9tailedyokai The most recent step doesn't allow DH on the tank/healer relics, since DH isn't naturally found on tank/healer gear.
There was a short time where tenacity was sometimes considered for warrior exactly. Since they have a fairly high uptime of guaranteed direct crits, direct hit as a stat would lose value quite a bit. Crit you would want to maximize of course, then determination, but sometimes you would have both maxed on a piece of gear (especially during early progression), and since you only meld skill speed up to the specific gcd, you would then put tenacity in remaining slots for the higher value over direct hit.
This was, as far as i remember, very niche and mostly only done in specifically crafted gear for week 1, since anything past that wouldnt have the space, but i do think it was neat
This is correct! Early in endwalker at least, tenacity was considered over direct hit because of how many guaranteed direct hits you had! Then those attacks were adjusted to get a damage bonus from it.
The important part is that tenacity was chosen because it was "weaker determination" which was better than direct hit during inner release, which means that the damage reduction wasn't even a consideration 😊😁
As I recall, it rarely even led to any tenacity materia being used 😊
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I added one Rank IX tenacity materia, because of stat tiering! Thats about it!
@@fierceblu Yeah that makes good sense!
Importantly, doing more damage is, in itself, mitigation.
If you kill the thing faster, it gets to attack you less, which means you get hit by less attacks, or have less chances of someone making a mistake and wiping the group.
So you can mitigate with more risk, or just get crit and mitigate by reducing that mistake risk.
Exactly, and the fact that ending a fight early also saves time in general also makes it preferred!
This is probably the most important thing, yeah. In content with raidwides and group mechanics etc it doesn't matter how safe you are as the tank if you end up having to do a challenging phase that could otherwise have been skipped.
That's only relevant if you stacking Crit over Ten makes your whole group skip whole phase of a fight, which won't really happen.
@@Ranziel1 As I've learned for most people, every auto counts.
I hear this thrown around a lot, but unless anyone in the group is having MP issues or DPS checks aren't being succeeded, I don't see how it matters if the boss dies ten seconds later or whatever. The factors that will make or break a run come down to execution alone, especially in high end content where this discussion actually counts. Did anyone stand in a mechanic that made them die? Did a tank take so much burst that they couldn't handle it between death invuln cooldowns? If not, it's just a matter of time until the boss dies, and rushing leads to mistakes that can cause those deaths and vuln stacks and such. It's a battle of attrition, not a race in most cases. The only exception at all is that some fights like TEA are so long per attempt that doing them faster is just plain easier on everyone's mental health.
I remember back in HW I had a super scuffed Bard build that had as much piety as possible so I could keep up Foe Requiem as long as possible. These days I keep up the spirit of the meme by stacking up spell speed on healing gear for my Too Fastro build. If I saw someone go all-in on tenacity I couldn't even be upset, I'd just nod in approval at the meme.
That is a hilarious piety strategy! For those not aware, back in ARR/HW, Piety was a stat everyone could use if they wanted to, and it increased your max MP instead of granting more MP recovery specifically to healers.
Foe Requiem was an aura like debuff that spent MP every few seconds to be maintained. It increased magic damage taken by enemies, but it also required a GCD to be activated as I recall, so keeping it up for as long as possible when it was activated would be beneficial (even if in this case, maybe stacking piety is a bit of a meme level of doing so! 😆)
In ShB, I had an alt at the time where I experimented sub stats like that. Imagine gnb with every single piece had Skill Speed on both subs and melds. Got it down to 2.34 gcds iirc.
Really wish we had a bit more freedom with melds like we did back in the day, I would love gnb going mnk speeds.
@@KyonV13 The good news is that, as long as you aren't aiming specifically for savage or ultimates, I think most players won't mind or really notice that you are doing something very weird with your builds, so for more casual content, I say go wild with the speed, if you think it will be fun!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh You say that, but SPS is actually a very valuable stat for healers this patch because we aren't subscribing to the 2-minute meta right now. The faster our abilities that are affected by SPS can refresh, the better.
That is actually directly correlated to the 2 minute burst. The more dps cooldowns a healer has that boosts your damage during the 2 minute burst, the more they like spell speed 😊
Which is also why sage doesn't care that much for speed, because they don't have cooldowns like that 😊
Besides, the exact example we were talking about was wacky off meta builds. 😁
I just got into the game thanks to my fiancé and your guides have been invaluable in helping me get to a point where I can play with her and understand the roles and mechanics. Thank you so very much. Genuinely.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad to hear that my guides could help you get into and enjoy the game! 😄 Thank you!
Piety and Tenacity seem like they really need a fucking rework in 7.0 so their materia aren't just booby prizes.
Frankly, a reexamination of the melding system might be in order at some point. I kinda feel like whenever I actually start melding for a job it's pretty much always "meld as much crit as you can manage and then fill any gaps with direct hit/determination as needed." Max skill/spell speed is for meme builds, and max tenacity or piety can't even be used to meme. I want the tank-specific materia to be one that tanks WANT! @_@
I absolutely agree!
As it stands right now, crit is too strong, but if that one was toned down a bit, then we'd just be stacking determination and direct hit, so it's like... A general thing, a lot of stats need some readjustments! 😅
Tenacity is fine. It is actually the best tank stat for 90% of use cases, just not for the use cases that require the most perfect optimization.
If tenacity was even a little bit better, it would be such a no-brainer stat that it would cease to be a decision for any tank ever.
Per the meme: killing the enemy faster is damage mitigation.
Indeed! Killing the enemy is 100% damage reduction! 🤣
Please please do a deepdive on piety! Picking between recommended gear builds with different piety I could really do with understanding the nuances of the pros and cons better 😅 Especially the differences in the benefits and diminishing returns for each job
I have been planning to make a piety video as well! 😊
Thank you for suggesting it too, your comment gave me some inspiration as to what to include in it! 😄
Generally just pick whatever makes you comfortable. If you're a shield healer and you don't shield your tanks before busters and don't need to rezz much, probably play with a no piety set. If you shield your tanks on every buster and need to rezz here and there, probably some piety would help.
I always tell fresh tanks that are leveling up to use tenacity because you don't know what you going to get with pf at low levels. And I think it helps more when a fresh tank and healer get stuck in the same party together because you build confidence for both roles and the healer will be more likely to participate in attacking and not just standing by the heal
That can be a good idea yes 😁 it can be difficult to use since often you don't have much choice in the stats on your gear as you level up, and if you are synced down then materia stop working as well, but it is a good idea for new tanks!
It doesn't do enough of a damage increase to outweigh any of the other damage stats, and with the way damage and healing work in this game, you can easily survive anything and everything without any of it.
On top of exactly this, for anything to do enough damage to warrant getting Tenacity, things would have to hit so hard that it would require all DPS jobs to have defensive cooldowns to share, since otherwise only those with any would be viable! And thats just one side effect of such a change!
I like the idea of each role having a substat that's exclusive to them, but I honestly think those stats should be exclusive to those roles. Tanks and healers can't meld DH, etc.
If crit was reigned in a bit and tenacity was given a boost, I could see there being a bit of agency when it comes to what to meld. Maybe go ultra safe and consistent with high tenacity. Go for higher potential but more swingier damage with crit. Or try to even it out. I'm sure there would still be something numerically superior for damage, but plenty of healers have high piety sets specifically for playing in party finder, so maybe a high tenacity set for tanks could be similar.
I think that might help too yeah. It is very strange that Direct Hit specifically isn't a role exclusive stat when you think about it.
Others have suggested simply removing Tenacity and adding its damage reduction component to Determination (but only for tanks) could be a solution. Similarly, you could also just buff Tenacity up to a point where it is close to Determination, then at least for tanks, Tenacity is "better Determination", instead of "worse Determination"!
From a game development standpoint, the game needs an overhaul if an entire stat is universally considered a dump stat and having any of that stat instead of another is considered terrible, which in turn influences which pieces of gear are good, especially if the reason for that stat is because of how it interacts or doesn't interact with the other stats. If tenacity's problem is it fails to contribute its defensive stats to the offensive ones and vice versa, then the simple solution seems to be it needs to be able to call on how much damage you are doing and using that to scale defiance, or better yet, checks how much you are increasing defense and using that number to increase damage.
Also this is a good time to point out that healers aught to be doing more damage than they are if a tank is doing more damage overall and is therefore punished by focusing on a stat that would allow healers to DPS more often just passively.
I agree that it is a problem if a stat is not considered valuable. I also think that the stats need an overhaul.
I think you misunderstand on the Healers doing more damage thing though!😊
The reason Healers dont gain more damage from tanks taking less damage is that healers *already* can attack 100% of the time, while also keeping the tank alive, so the tank taking less damage simply cannot result in the healers doing more damage. If healers did twice the damage of a tank, Tenacity would still be unhelpful, since Healers already can attack all the time 😅
damage mit is proportionally equivalent to an inverse increase to max hp and healing received, and viewing it this way is pretty helpful for analyzing health mechanics, specifically because tenacity is an infinite duration.
for example, having -50% mit would be as if you had x2 health and x2 healing received. with 1000 health normally, taking 1000 damage with either effect on would only deal 50% of your max hp as damage, then receiving a 500 hp heal would heal you 50%, right up to full.
looking at it this way, it means tenacity can be observed as +1% damage, +1% healing dealt, ~+1.01% healing received, and ~+1.01% health boost per 10 tiers. under this lens, self-healing increase is quadratic for flat cure potencies (h. dealt x h. received), and CUBIC for lifesteal effects (d. dealt x h. dealt x h. received), with healing received already increasing exponentially as tenacity increases (being an inverse of a flat % decrease), and health boost adding a great deal of general health economy with the same exponential scaling.
though it does, technically, decrease the efficiency of other mitigations, you will always end up with more total mit with tenacity than without it. and as for it being redundant, yes it entirely is, you can get by any and all content without tenacity with good cooldown management.
i see it as being great for leveling roulette (which i use to grind for materia clusters often with tank), where you can just drop your whole rotation to check your phone or something with it really not mattering. tenacity acts as a cushion for when people dont really care to put in effort into gameplay, or if you get like stone vigil and a sprout healer or smth
A good point, that damage reduction is equivalent to effective hp and healing gain combined 😊
I did briefly mention that tenacity is great if the tank or healer is not confident in their ability, but becomes gradually worse the better the players are 😊 sometimes to the point where if the tank or healer is good enough, it becomes irrelevant 😁
I focused mainly on damage output number wise because that's the typical thing people focus on. The healing increase is nice of course, but similar to how healers prioritize direct hit because the healing from determination doesn't help enough, it is arguable that this quadratic healing increase from tenacity isn't helpful either 😅
Personally I feel the crit bonus to my heals is more helpful, but this video is of course mainly to teach some perspective on the stat! 😁
Thank you for the detailed mathematical explaination.
But I feel like there is a missing bonus at tenacity (corect me if I'm mistaken) : HP increase
Hp increase witch should't be added to the mitigation capability without the drawback of the standard -0.1% damage taken : if your HP rise by 1% you can take 1% more damage AFTER damage reduction.
It shake a bit for later explenation but I now have a better picture ^^
Oooh you mean tenacity could increase max hp?
Technically it kind of does, since damage reduction is equivalent to increasing your effective hp, which I briefly touched on 😊
But that could be relevant too given that there are a few mechanics that ignore all damage reduction and do fixed damage 😁
I do get the idea of tenacity being this great meld for tanking damage while providing slight damage increase. However, with what actions has been presented (along with specific fights that barely hurt tanks at times) and overall DPS checks to complete. Tenacity to an extent really is seen as a worse option in those fights.
I would wish by 7.0 they flat out just change tenacity a bit (or overhaul it entirely) to where there’s still damage increase while providing that damage reduction too. It’s so bizarre it requires so many points to really provide the increased stats.
Yeah exactly, at a glance Tenacity sounds incredible. But simply because of its scaling, its too weak, which is probably even more underlined by the fact that if it scaled as well as Determination, Crit would probably still be considered more important ^^'
I think a general overhaul of all of the stats would be nice!
Something to add that you brushed over slightly, Tenacity is also bad because of fight design in general. I have only played Endwalker Savage so I don't have comparisons for earlier fights. As a tank I'm almost never afraid of a tank buster because I either invuln or pop 2 cooldowns and get tickled. If tanks were actually in danger of dying from damage, Tenacity would be a more viable stat. Shared Tank busters are almost always spaced out in such a way that Warriors can Holmgang 1/3/5 and the other tanks can Invuln 2/6 leaving only 1 tank buster that does real damage. There have been some exceptions like P8S phase 1 but the tank busters are so far apart you can kitchen sink every defensive cooldown, take very little damage and have them all back for the next set. Most single Tank Busters can be handled with TBN/HOC/Bloodwhetting/Sheltron + Rampart or your 30% and still have no chance of killing you. Increasing the potency of tenacity by 40% would make it more attractive, but until incoming damage becomes actually dangerous it'll always be a trash stat.
That is very true. In fact, as far as I know, historically, Tenacity has never been good - and it was put in the game in Stormblood - almost certainly because of fight design!
If there are any relatively new players reading these comments: this video was very thorough, but there is one thing it forgot to address. "WHY is doing slightly more damage so important in a raiding environment in FFXIV?"
It would be tempting to assume that this is merely the perspective of someone focused on dealing max DPS to look good on FFLogs, or someone who wants their reclears to be sped up by 2%. Although those are side benefits, that is not at all the reason why damage output is so fundamentally important in FFXIV Savage and Ultimate raids. It's all because of the ENRAGE TIMERS.
In other MMOs such as World of Warcraft, enrage timers are typically not extremely strict and well-tuned. The wildly fluctuating amounts of damage that players can deal with a near-infinite number of variables involved is too complex for the developers to predict with high precision.
In FFXIV, the developers know EXACTLY how much damage you and your entire group are likely to be dealing. Gearing is simple, there are no talents, and the damage spread between classes is miniscule compared to other MMOs. As such, enrage timers are tuned very precisely. The worst thing that can possibly happen in an FFXIV raid is not dying: it's making it all the way to the end, and dying to enrage while the boss is at 0.2% because the tanks melded Tenacity.
This is very true. I decided to not include the fact that enrage timers can be very strict, because the strictness of enrage timers can vary extremely heavily between raid tiers, and often, with more gear, the strictness is also naturally slacked a bit.
However, as you brought up, beating a boss even just a single second faster is a lot more important, if the boss was going to wipe you in 1 second! And that is something Tenacity would never ever save you from!
Thank you for adding this!
Tenacity needs to be buffed a lot to outshadow evertything else. But then also the Enemy Targets, especially in Raids need to hit a lot harder with their auto attacks to compensate the passive damage reduction of the tank. That would also lead to healers becoming relevant again in dungeons.
Indeed, there's really a lot that would need to change for tenacity to be valued for it's damage reduction!
I feel the most valid reason why Determination/Direct Hit is valued more than Tenacity is because there is no boss in FFXIV that deals that much constant damage where Tenacity damage reduction would matter. Shields, heals, mitigation and even invulnerability are all more than enough to respond to any boss's skill kit. Yoshi-P's team needs to reassess how Tenacity works for next expansion, or it'll become the next useless stat to axe.
Conversely, if they make Tenacity raise Parry rate while making bosses hit harder, then maybe Tenacity might see some possible use. Because the meta gameplay of FFXIV is all about dealing damage, so if bosses hit harder, tanks require more healing and healers spends more mana on heals than damage itself. The current design of FFXIV is slightly flawed because not only tank stats are placing DPS as priority(Det/DH over Tenacity/SKS), even Healers are doing it too(Det/DH over SPS/Piety). In the end, everyone is technically a DPS, just that tanks and healers simply throw out skills in response to specific boss's mechanics/rotations.
Indeed, tanks and healers prioritize damage almost entirely as much as a dps does. It is quite wild.
I think it may partly be because tanks and healers have too many tools to deal with things:
why grab a stat that boosts defense when you have so many defensive cooldowns you can get away with using 2 or 3 of them whenever the boss as much as looks in your direction?
Why grab more mp regen when nearly all the healing you need to do can be done with abilities and free spells (for whm)?
Either boss fights may need to be reassessed, or the sheer quantity of defensive ability options both tanks and healers get may need a check up 🤔
I was aware that tenacity scaled bad but this has explained so much! Now i understand why my tank friend hates tenacity on his gear lol.
Great video!
Thank you so much!
Yes, often it is difficulty to tell when a stat is bad because of scaling, since the game never really tells you this 😁
I'm glad you found it helpful! 😄
Thanks for the explanation, I love this actually value comparison.
But does this mean that there are no fights where every point of Dmg reduction matters because the boss attack at one moment just smacks you over yonder otherwise?
Overall yes of course faster boss dead = less dmg taken = less healer involvement but surely there are fights where it’s about surviving the moment and not the fight, or not?
Thank you! 😄
As of right now, there are no fights where tenacity makes a significant enough impact that it really matters beyond the insurance policy argument ("when things go wrong, it is kind of nice to have tenacity sometimes")
It really sucks that it is like that 😢
In ARR and HW i believe, there are some bosses that use "no warning tankbusters", where it can be harder to put up defensives beforehand. But usually these bosses do it at set intervals so it can become predictable anyway, and I think they don't do enough damage to surprise kill you even without tenacity! 😅
I think for 7.0 they should maybe turn tank determination stats into tenacity or boost its effectiveness. It is a tank-only stat, should be something they don’t shy away from. But that’s just my opinion. Unsure how to fix piety
I think that could work. I have a feeling the piety issue may be harder to fix too!
In a simple example, most of the people that are going to meld stats are usually doing so because of Savage and EX trials, not going for DPS stats on tank and healer will MOST DEFINITELY lead to your party not clearing enrage due to not enough DPS and failing the EX/Savage.
Indeed! Even if it meant a tank just doing a few more damage, it is very possible that it is going to be very significant on the first clears of each boss 😊
They really need to rework the substat system entirely. Piety obviously has its uses but even then it's "to comfort" and even if you kit out entirely with it you're not getting a hugely significant amount of mana back per tick by stacking it. Tenacity you've described here. Spell Speed gets knocked out of the park on most jobs by Crit stacking due to the 2 minute meta. I really hope in 7.x we get a lot of tweaks.
I very much agree! I feel a major issue with Piety and Tenacity is that what makes them so bad is at least in part due to how many tools each job has to work with. The more cooldowns healers gets, the less MP they need for healing (if any). The more cooldowns tanks get, the less helpful tenacity looks.
The 2 minute meta causing issues for Speed is also a very good point, and just another issue raised by this 2 minute meta problem!
So, there's one situation where I would consider stacking TEN as a tank: if you're mostly running casual content and NEVER any Extreme/Savage, and you're mostly or exclusively pugging. Here, the lost DPS is unlikely to be a major issue, as you're already losing a little relative to BiS by not having Ascension pieces, and since you're pugging, you're much more likely to get saddled with a healer who's new or bad. If you do that, having 8-10% DR from TEN can help you a fair bit and make the healer's job that much easier, while the extra DPS is unlikely to get the enemies dead in time to matter.
The closer to optimal everyone's playing, though, the less this helps. I do it, and it's helped me a fair chunk in random content where I've been saddled with bad healers or slow DPS, but if I were going to start doing Savages, I'd definitely re-meld all my gear with CRI > DH >= DET (and replace two Aug Diadochos pieces with Aug Credendum).
So, I heard there is a specific corner case for TEN being "useful" which is for a sole-Warrior tank main, not an omni-tank main, as DH is not as useful in WAR burst windows due to how IR works, therefore I've heard that melding more TEN over DH, again as just a WAR player, would be a bit more beneficial. Is this still the case or is it such a corner case that it really doesn't matter?
This corner case was true back when Direct Hit was useless on Guaranteed Direct Hits.
After there was a mechanical change to how Guaranteed Crits/Direct Hits work, so that they now get additional bonus damage from critical hit *rate* and direct hit *rate*, Warriors now also prefer Direct Hit.
But this was indeed true for a while!
They could scale your defensives with tenacity so the base skill without any extra tenacity melds would give about 10% mit. But if you have tenecity, it adds to that so it'd be 28.5%. And what if you stack tenecity like crazy and had rampart give a 30 something % mit and your venegence/shadow wall give something stupid like a 56 % mit. People will probably just find the bare minimum amount to not die, but it'd make it more interesting during prog.
If it worked this way, depending on how high it would go, there might be amounts of Tenacity that would enable unusual strategies that could make things easier. That would certainly be more helpful than what we have now I think!
It could be funny if max tenacity pulling all cooldowns + good group mitigation from Healers/DPS stacking theirs on top was sufficient to allow solo tanking on some fights.
Caetsu: Here is why you should choose Crit instead of Tenacity 🤓
Me: Tank stat goes brrrrr 😎
Fair point!
But crit make fell cleave go brrr better! 😄
One last thing to add to your fun fact at the end. Parry was also considered a useless stat, just like Tenacity that replaced it.
WELL THEN! I guess we couldn't expect much more! xD
As a World of Warcraft player (though not played FFXIV), this is interesting to watch. Tenacity is basically same thing as the Versatility stat in WoW, except versatility increases damage/healing twice as much as its damage reduction, unlike FFXIV tenacity. It also doesn't scale completely linearly and instead starts to drop off a little after a certain threshold. It's considered a decent if not outright great stat for tanks, but can also be used by all classes/specs in the game. Most DPS don't really care for Versatility in PvE, but in PvP it's the best-in-slot "secondary" stat for all specs in the game (though for some of them it's tied with Haste), appears on all PvP-specific pieces and up until recently the PvP trinket-set bonus used to buff this stat specifically for PvP (they've since changed it to buff primary stat + stamina, but versatility still remains the best-in-slot secondary for PvP).
Then again, you say that for some fights the healer doesn't even have to cast heals on the tank directly. In WoW, even with a tank spec with self-healing that potentially rivals the healer's overall healing output (Blood Death Knight), that still isn't the case. In WoW, sooner or later the tank WILL take damage that WILL have to be healed either primarily or assisted by the healer and there is no exception to that unless you are completely overgeared for the content you're running. (technically the same also goes for DPS: while a lot of damage can be avoided, there's almost always damage that will occur or debuffs to be dispelled in some capacity that the healer will have to take care of.)
Indeed! I played wow for many years myself, and a key difference with ffxiv is that jobs have many ogcd actions that just do damage or heal.
Imagine if druids could use wild growth as an ogcd, or life bloom. Or a paladin could use holy shock as an ogcd.
These kinds of features mean that healers have most of their gcd healing tools by level 50 or so, and while potent, you get so many ogcd options that as long as everyone knows what they're doing, the healer rarely has to use anymore than just the ogcds!
A key reason why versatility is considered a lot more helpful in wow I think is also because the toolkits of the wow tanks are far more varied, some have more effective hp out the box, others have less. Some have very strong cooldowns, others have a larger quantity of weaker cooldowns. And ultimately, versatility is a reliable way to increase your hp. I think wow bosses are also less tightly balanced, because due to the sheer amount of gearing options in the game, the developers cannot know for sure how good your gear is, even as a minimum! So they sort of just have to estimate what they think is reasonable and go from there!
I hope some of this clears some things up from a wow players perspective! I do appreciate your input to the conversation as well! 😊
Was trying to think of ways to make Tenacity worth using and the best I could come up with is tacking "extends duration of tank mitigation effects" to it. Maybe every 1% Tenacity adds .25 secs to all your tank effect durations which would be good for less skilled tanks without making it must have.
That is a very interesting way to add a unique benefit to Tenacity. Just thinking about it initially, adding a flat 0.25 second duration to tank effects (defensive cooldowns presumably) per 1% tenacity could lead to some quite wild things, Fully stacking Tenacity to reach 12% would give 3 seconds:
Warrior: Bloodwhetting for 11 seconds to fit an additional GCD. Holmgang also lasts 13 seconds, so with just the one cooldown you would have 1 second of danger between them
Dark Knight: The Blackest Night lasting 10 seconds instead of just 7 would make it a lot easier to break it even on small amounts of damage
Paladin: What if Passage of Arms buff it applies to people behind you also got +3 seconds? Then it would be 8 seconds for the quick weave! Also, Cover lasting 15 seconds might also be super helpful for the team.
In fact, for all four tanks, your defensive you can share with your cotank lasting longer might be supremely helpful, and might give rise to some sort of support style if it worked this way! I know its a rough suggestion, but I think adding some sort of unique secondary effect like this might be on the right track of what might make Tenacity effective without having to force it!
I remember Parry. Because I remember Dark Dance... And going head empty going Dark Arts Dark Dance during A12. Where it makes it dodge. Bosses never miss meaning you lost MP for DA AND didn't get a chance to trigger your Low Blow because you didn't parry for the proc. Fun times to be had.
I never got to try HW DRK but the idea of how it worked was very interesting. I suppose these kinds of issues, both bosses eliminating so much of your toolkit, but also the randomness in it, was the reason why they moved away from parry as a stat, and moved DRK away from that as well 😥
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It got worse as Reprisal (A mitigation) and Low Blow (just free damage) were, back then Parry reliant. And if you did Dark Arts Dark Dance by accident you lost out on damage as those two skills relied on Parry back then. I don't miss old Drk but I also love old Drk.
I put Tenacity in everything. I put tenacity on my sword. I put tenacity on my armor. I put tenacity on my dinner last night. I needed tenacity to survive it.
You know what, fair enough, it sounds like tenacity really is important for your well being! 😆
I dont tank savage so i use tenacity becuse when i choose to tank, sometimes healers are crap. and i dont want to wipe.
That is reasonable, and a specific use case for the stat: it very well helps compensate a bit if either the tank or healer needs a bit of extra help! 😊
I'm just spitballing here but why not make it so determination is a dps only stat like tenacity for tanks and piety for healers. Combine this with making tenacity and piety have the same scaling as determination and I feel like people would start using the two stats more often or at least they would seem more worthwhile.
Piety would probably need to have a damage increasing property added to it for people to want a lot of it, even if it scaled as well as determination! But other than that this could work! 😊
So basically it be better if it gave more but since it doesn't Tenacity doesn't stack up as well as investing your stats into other things.
Yeah pretty much! 😊
This is why it annoys me that direct hit isn't an option on the WAR adjustable Hildi weapon. Not sure about the other three.
For some reason, it is decided that Direct Hit is a DPS stat, but for some reason it still works for tanks and healers. For that reason, Relic weapons for tanks and healers always lose out on Direct Hit as an option - similarly, Direct Hit is never found on tank or healer gear after I believe Heavensward! It is really weird!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh yea, that's only because preHW gear is usuable by more than it's Role... like some of the Melee gear in ARR is usable by Tanks too, even though it has significantly less DEF. IIRC even the HWpoeticAccessories are "all jobs", I'll sometimes see ppl using 2 diff rings probably because they dont notice the poeticRings are NOT-unique.
Aside from the option of removing Tenacity, there's also the option of having some abilities that scale with Tenacity. I also think both Tenacity and Determination should have what some other games call Spirit, where it impacts the value of INCOMING healing. Having this as a knock-on effect of the stat would make Crit vs Det a non-parallel - and therefore less "solved" - equation.
Both making actions scale with tenacity, and the spirit angle are both great ways to make it more interesting! 😊
i think what they should do is, make tenacity scale the mits like rampart and shadow wall, sentinel, etc. for example, rampart doesnt give 20% mit, rather it gives 5% base mit + more 20% depending on tenacity amount = up to 25%, and also scale damage for tanks like determination but slightly less, that way it will become a standard to have tenacity for endgame gear and give a reason for tank players to get gear for progression
That is an interesting solution, to make the defensives require tenacity to be good 😊
My concern is that this would probably break the game quite badly in lower levels where you just don't have the option! 😅
Sounds like they can fix tenacity by having the defensive bonuses follow an additive equation and slightly lower the amount required for each increment.
Hmm, I know it isn't exactly what you meant, but if Tenacity was calculated to be added after all other defensives and then additively placed at the end, it might actually be incredibly strong - again, if we focus on the defensive value alone!
Let me elaborate:
If you have 10% Tenacity, and get hit for 10000 damage while you have Rampart (20% damage reduction) and, say, Holy Sheltron (27.75% damage reduction combined), then if you first note that Tenacity should take 10% off (1000), and then keep that for later, you can do
10000 * 0.8 = 8000
8000 * 0.7225 = 5780
and then 5780 - 1000 = 4780 with tenacity. Then by making it additive, in this example, Tenacity would be worth 17.3% instead of just 10%, making it have a positive relationship with defensive cooldowns rather than a negative one!
I would like to see SE redesign Tenacity and Piety to make them truly the mastery stats for healers and tanks. Granting enhancement to core skills while providing around the same damage capability as Direct Hit.
That's the weird thing! It's reasonably possible that even if piety and tenacity gave like... 95% of the damage output that direct hit and determination grants, they'd possibly still be considered worse simply because damage and all that. So whatever it would take to make the stats considered "good", would also immediately make them superior to the other damage stats that provide nothing else than damage! 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Acutually if you make tenacity's coeff to be 130 instead of currently 112 (DET has a coeff of 140) , then it will make TNC worth picking when planning BIS (roughly 77 : 23 bewteen DET and TNC) since DET and TNC scales multiplicatively in between them. Sorry for my inaccurrate english😂
@@captainveryslow6325 That is a very good point, eventually Tenacity could be high enough that adding it to the things you multiply together for damage would be optimal!
the biggest things that ive come across on why these stats are opt for is entierly how they design the fights. tank busters and aoes get alined with CDs so the need to having the extra damage reduction is ether to prevent 1 shot range(which is only a few melds) or trying to force a obserdly specific break point on something that is at best 1 fight or 1 instance that is team dependent. i havnt done much of savage tier stuff as a white mage main, but the ranges of when to heal or let the regen finish the top off almost never adds a extra cast reducing dps time because of the instances of them needing to be at max hp again forces the healers to focus on healing. these instances would basicly have the tanks dmg reduction they spec for equal to 1 extra cast of healing at minimum to even be considered. going off 15%, you would need to heal 7 times in 1 instance to even notice if that would be a difference, and thats not even including crit heal RNG. infact mistakes add a extra cast because extra damage was taken. even in healing the others because of these mistakes, i just sometimes let the regen do its work anyways that was shoved out for the tank 80% of the time because its not drasticly needed unless a mechanic/aoe shows up(this particularly differs a lot for harder content for how often)
Indeed, part of the problem is that fights are designed around the cooldowns the tanks have in some way, so it isn't going to throw more at you than what your group has tools for. And as long as that holds true, tenacity won't help much 😅
Thanks for the detailed information, although it left me a bit desillusioned. xD
It's hard for me to accept that Tenacity is so bad, especially when the devs put max Tenacity or Piety on Savage gear. Both the current ilvl 660 savage gloves and augmented ilvl 660 tome stone gloves have Tenacity, so you can't even avoid increasing the stat as a Tank. Makes you wonder why the devs are so insistent on having these stats still in the game. In comparison, a DPS will never have useless stats on their max ilvl gear. To be honest that probably wouldn't be an issue for me if the difficult content would be designed in a way where you actually need extra mitigation / healing.
It sucks when you find out something cool isn't as exciting as you hoped!
The stats on gear vary, and if the devs always put the best stats on all gear, then they would remove even the choice for the player to do something else!
Just as an example, All three Ranged Physical jobs (Bard, Machinist, Dancer) see very little benefit in Skill Speed, at all, but they still have gear with the stat on it. As far as these jobs are concerned, Skill Speed might as well be worse than finding Tenacity on a Tank gear piece!😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It's true that having a choice is important for the game.
I think it would be even better if the other option would actually be viable. And Speed most of the time is not viable, let alone Tenacity or Piety. That's why I think the choise is an illusion at that point; you're bound to prefer Crit / DHit = Det in almost all cases.
Taking you example, Phys Range at least can bypass the Skill Speed by taking either tome sone gear or savage gear to not have any point on SkS, but with Tanks this tier this is impossible. In the end it's no big deal either way, you could easily do enough damage as a tank even with max Tenacity, it just makes me wonder why this is still in the game.
@@NEETmoreAnime Indeed, as it is right now, the value of the stats are so in favor of certain combinations that there might as well not be a choice
And after at least two expansions of having no one caring about yellow materia; why don't they tweak the stats of them to make them good? 🤷 (And purple ones too)
Indeed! I would rather hope for an overhaul on all the stats in general 😁
Good news, max tenacity gave us a clear on trial roulette vs cruise chaser!
Right at the end of the fight the boss managed to cast confusion on everyone (you hit teammates with auto attacks) and the boss also cast bunch of AOEs under us and we could only wait out the timer while everyone was dying, when eventually there were only me and the main tank WAR, both hitting eachother with auto attacks but thanks to me having tenacity on every gear piece in a synched down content so i took about 300dmg less with each hit than him until he died, then there was only a few seconds of the debuff remaining and i was spamming my living dead button like crazy and managed to activate it just before the boss would land the killing blow on me, i managed to heal up to full and kill the boss since it had 6% hp remaining
Its a great story but yeah...tenacity saves might be more rare than people winning in the lottery 😂
Tenacity is actually even worse when compared to Crit, since Crit rating also increases the damage of a Crit. You gain a 0.1% increase to both Rate and Damage per every 9.5 points of Critical Hit beyond the base.
This is true, but I also included this in the calculations in the video! 😊
The main thing I chose to leave out is that raid buffs, and certain job specific actions can make crit even better since, as you also mentioned, the crit Stat also boosts the crit damage! 😁
10:16 look at that Ninja. Posing at the boss to demoralize it. What a chad.
Haha! I never actually noticed that! I am guessing they may have disconnected and the game simply has not noticed yet! 🤣
Yeah Tenacity has been pretty bad for a long time, but recently I've found that skill speed has been even worst then Tenacity, I used to lament getting gear with crit ten but now I hate getting crit sks because not only is the dps gain from sks a complete joke, but it has the added flaw of messing up my rotation by making me be too early for my reopener every minute, making me take an extra gcd and effectively delaying my reopener over the course of a fight, resulting in me being an additional 5 seconds late every 2 minutes.
Indeed, the fact that paladin especially, just really doesn't want speed, has caused a lot of tanks to avoid speed entirely, and discovered certain benefits of zero speed that makes it very awkward when you suddenly have some speed you never signed up for 😅
It is a very good point, and I wonder if the two minute burst itself is partly to blame for this problem!
This video is very good and informative and mathematically correct, and I think that's why it makes me so goddamn *mad.*
This game is literally too stripped down and simplified in its current incarnation to host any mechanics other than 'deal damage'. DR doesn't matter because all damage taken is either calculated to be survivable, or instantly lethal, such as the hard enrage you run into if you didn't deal enough damage. Healing output doesn't matter because healer kits are designed to automate the process and the worst case scenario is 'asking the healer to spend a GCD healing, and thus not dealing damage'. As someone who mained Samurai back in Shadowbringers I can tell you right now that if you gave me the old Astro Haste card in 2023, I would find out where you lived and shove you into a locker, because literally the job design can't even fathom accommodating the simple joy of 'going faster should imply more damage'. The only reason Materia as a mechanic exists is so the devs can make you do roulettes so you can stack Crit on top of DH, or Determination if you're specifically playing Warrior. The only reason we even have Black Mage and its whopping two types of rotation based on your stat build is because Yoshi P is too precious about the job to let it get changed too much, and even then sometimes I feel like BLM mains are on a doom timer until that gets 'ironed out' too.
There are not enough axes of interaction with the video game for 'playing well' to mean anything other than making your ACT display a higher number, and thus it becomes the whole video game. The core gameplay at this point is literally too flimsy to host any mechanics capable of inspiring higher thought. I don't know what they could do to fix it, but I know for sure that I probably made a mistake resubbing to play level 80 BLU this month. I just can't play any level of content in this game and *not* think about all this.
It is an unfortunate revelation when optimization reaches it's peak, and I think that both stats would need some changes, but also how jobs approach both healing and tanking to fix it. But how exactly I don't know - I see this same kind of hyper optimization in other games too: why take defense when you could take offense 😕
9:58 I like how this dance partnered ninja is literally afk while we are talking about maximizing stats
It is quite hilarious, and I did not even notice that when editing. Genuinely, that is an accident! But I am glad that it lead to comedy! :D
I've only ever actively looked to use Tenacity is if I'm leveling a tank job. The damage reduction it offers is not much, but often I felt it was enough to allow wall to wall while healers can keep up with a bit more breathing space, I'm looking at you, Bardam's Mettle! But when it comes to post-leveling dungeons for any expansion, I drop that stuff immediately and focus on the better stats since gear scales out the dungeon a lot more.
Yeah bardams mettle has a few pulls that really test both the tank and healer, and even the dps in a way! 😁
Tenacity basically can't be allowed to be good.
Because of its general benefits, it'd be unreasonable for the offensive part of the stat to be competitive with other stats that provide no defensive utility. The defensive side only becomes considered if it's required to mitigate certain mechanics which means it's now mandatory and therefore the offensive benefits are just a compensation for not being able to choose offensive stats.
...Which isn't actually that different from the current state of things because outside of niche circumstances or very specific content, you're best served exclusively by picking the mathematical optimal offensive stats. It gives the illusion of choice because nothing has a meaningful impact on rotation and just ends up being a passive addition to what you were already doing so you might as well make number as big as possible.
For the same reason that Tenacity doesn't actually change the AoE healing required, I'd actually say that Crit isn't a very good healing stat most of the time. Unless every hit of whatever healing ability or spell you used is a Crit, it doesn't actually change the amount of resources you'll have to use. You still have to use the same overall cooldowns to heal the party, especially with how formalized healing plans are in coordinated raid content.
The current design of FFXIV allows for essentially no flexibility in stat choices. You're either choosing the optimal damage stats, or are choosing something wrong even it makes the game feel better. I prefer Det over Crit/DHit because I value consistency over the higher maximum potential of the RNG stats but it's still the wrong decision for maximizing output.
In an ideal world, I'd want Skill/Spell speed combined and the math changed to be a direct competitor to Crit, enabling the stylistic decision to choose a fast rotation with more burst windows that do less, or a slow rotation with potentially heavy-hitting burst windows that are dependent on Crit/DHit RNG. This would require some changes to the 2-minute burst design since accelerating a rotation would naturally drift out of that window.
A far less interesting but far more easy idea would be to stop pretending that Skill/Spell Speed is a real stat outside of BLM and hyper-specific circumstances and give all classes preset GCDs to be designed around.
Well... That ended up getting away from me, haha. Ah well.
Very good point!
Given how crit scales, I think if they made tenacity scale as well as determination, I actually think optimizing tanks would still choose crit first, and then simply prioritize tenacity over determination, because the damage reduction is valued so incredibly low that I wouldn't be surprised if someone chose +0.1% damage done over -10% damage taken 😅
Buffing speed would also be interesting. Given the whole burst window meta, it would be incredibly difficult to make it competitive for most jobs, but it certainly doesn't help that speed doesn't scale that well. In fact, you could probably buff speed very substantially, so that in a vacuum it's better than crit, and people would still choose to prioritize crit because it is better in burst windows 😅
Overall, stats like speed and tenacity, that do other things that make attack numbers bigger, are far more interesting to me, and I'd rather see them be more competitive even if it overshadows the other stats as a result 😄
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Completely agreed.
Interesting stats that do more than just make numbers bigger are much more compelling, though I understand that they do make balance harder. Considering how tight the balance is for FFXIV, compared to other MMOs at least, this might be incompatible with their current philosophy.
It also doesn't help that Spell Speed suffers a lot of the same problems for casters that Skill Speed used to for physical classes when TP was a thing. BLM skirts around this by having its MP recovery phase, but RDM and SMN are both already dependent on Lucid Dreaming just to be able to do their job.
Doesn't anything that sync your gear down remove your materia stats entirely? So if your gear doesn't have DH and you meld DH then anything you run that syncs your armor down you still won't be able to do any direct hits due to all the allocation being on materia?
That is correct yes 😊 it would naturally also remove tenacity melds and crit melds and determination melds too of course.
Bards give a direct hit rate buff with both one of their songs, and battle voice, so that would still allow you to direct hit. Otherwise, only warrior among tanks and healers can direct hit at all when all gear is synced down 🤔😊
As someone who is still going through msq, i take any stat i can get. But I appreciate the advice for future builds!
Of course! Item level is always more important than the optimal secondary stats, and tenacity isn't so bad that it's worse than nothing! This is mainly a matter of concern when targeting a stat to get more of! 😄
Rule of thumb, you are only going to need to worry about secondary stats when going through BiS gear sets, and you'll only really need those if you do really high end content.
Very true! Technically no one's going to get mad at you for choosing tenacity in casual content! This video just serves to try and guide you on whether that is a good decision! 😊
If you're still leveling, you'll be replacing gear so frequently anyway it really isn't worth worrying about stat optimisation.
for future builds (endgame content) you'll just check what's BiS and go with it, you can go about it yourself, but the hardware has already been figured out.
some will theory craft on patch day when new gear gets released, but that'll be generally a few hours to maybe a day (depending how busy that specific job community is) and then it's back to business.
they'll also just tell you stat priority for materia melds.
Every guide i ever watched about melding for healers always say to not take dh and to take crit/det...is that wrong
A reasonable question! 😊
Crit should be prioritized.
Determination and direct hit are point for point extremely close, but because of that, and how stats interact with each other, having a balanced mix of determination and direct hit tends to be better than just having a ton of one of them.
Healer gear never naturally has direct hit on them, so the only way to get any direct hit in the first place is to meld it with materia.
As a side effect of that, healers (and tanks) always have way less direct hit than determination, thereby making direct hit more valuable.
The reason why some guides (not all) will suggest ignoring direct hit is because it does not give the healer any bonus to their healing. And if the guide creator believes the healing bonus determination provides is valuable enough, they will suggest avoiding direct hit, because the average damage gain from choosing direct hit melds over, say, determination, is small, but significant. However the extra healing from melding that instead is also... very small 😅
Long story short: to maximize damage output, which is important for healers too, do crit>dh>=det, placing spell speed somewhere in the priority depending on which healer, and piety depending on what you need.
The >= notation means that direct hit is considered better or equal to determination depending on how much you have (but healers usually never reach the point where they are actually equal!)
All of my healer guides also reflect this, and as one other example, The Balance's guides also reflect this 😊
I hope this helps!
All of this presumes that everyone knows what they're doing. It's a great guide for high end play. But dying with randos feels a lot worse than your dungeon taking 20s longer on average.
That is also why I highlighted that tenacity is helpful if the tank or healer is less skilled, and the value of tenacity drops as they get more skillful 😊
So while the statement that tenacity is bad is assuming everyone knows what they're doing, I did highlight the value it might provide as training wheels! 😊
In fairness, if your tank or healer is less skilled, you are probably "losing" far more time to either of them not doing their rotations right as well, which is far more critical (pun intended), than having "the best stats" 😄
It's funny cause in Wow there is a stat like this called Versatility, but every single job can get it and it is significantly more impactful often being the best substat for every job.
Indeed! I think part of the reason is that boss mechanics are often wildly different in damage numbers in WoW, not to mention stuff like M+ where sometimes unavoidable boss mechanics can scale so far out of proportion that you need this versatility to even live it!
I have been one of the biggest tenacity advocates… until now… 😮💨
Can’t find an argument from this lecture, and I guess it’s time I finally let go😢
The only positive I can give you is in dawntrail they buffed tenacity some more, so it is about 80% of the effectiveness of determination now. However all the points in the video still apply. The main thing is that because of the distance being a bit shorter now, sometimes it can be beneficial to take some (some) tenacity for the damage it provides due to how it would stack multiplicatively with determination and direct hit and crit. But it's rather specific and still misses the point of tenacity also giving damage reduction 😅
Sounds like an issue that could just be solved by adjusting tenacity to 1% damage resistance, damage dealt, and healing received per 90 tenacity.
It would still be less damage than crit, det, and direct hit, but at 2670 tenacity that would be ~30% of each factor. It would be much more valuable to tanks as -30% Damage taken is like having a permanent defensive cd up, and +30% healing received makes healers jobs a lot easier than a tiny 12%. They'd have to rescale the "per X" measurement by level or item level though (whichever they use for other stats) so that you're not able to stack it up to 50% or even 100% in future expansions. Ideally it would be 30% by the last patch of the expansion if all gear was given tenacity materia only.
テナシティを 1% のダメージ耐性、与えられるダメージ、90 テナシティあたりの回復量に調整するだけで解決できる問題のように思えます。
それでもクリティカル、決意、直撃よりもダメージは少ないですが、2670 の粘り強さでは各要素の最大 30% になります。タンクにとっては、受けるダメージが -30% になると永続的な防御クールダウンがかかるようなものとなり、受ける回復量が +30% になるとヒーラーの仕事がわずか 12% よりもはるかに簡単になるため、はるかに価値があります。ただし、将来の拡張で 50% または 100% まで積み上げることができないように、レベルまたはアイテム レベル (他のステータスに使用する方) ごとに「90 あたりの粘り強さ」の測定値を再スケールする必要があります。理想的には、すべてのギアが粘り強くスロットに配置されていれば、拡張の終わりには 30% になります。
1% per 90 points is better than all the other stats actually. Crit is 1% per 95 points It would be considered on par with Determination if it was 135 points per 1% Tenacity, and since Tenacity does mostly the same as Determination (and then some) it would be the better choice.
Notably, Tenacity also does not increase healing received, that is an issue with the word choice in the tooltip! It just affects healing done by yourself. However, for comparison, Determination only boosts healing from Spells, so thats actually worse!
The amount of stats you need to reach certain amounts of percentage is always scaled to your level. For example, you get +0.1% Tenacity for *every* point of tenacity when you are at level 1 to 16 So this will automatically be balanced as higher levels become available!
The key problem is that by design of fights in FFXIV, the damage reduction from Tenacity is almost considered irrelevant outside of week 1 prog groups on savage or harder content. So as long as Tenacity's damage increasing component is weaker than the competition, optimization will always view it as inferior, although, if it was just somewhat closer to the other stats, I imagine the majority of the player base would look at the stat a lot more favorably too
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Perhaps I did the calculation wrong then, if per 135 is on par with determination, then it would make more sense to have the 3 things tenacity modifies go to per 145 or per 150. On non-tank classes it should definitely stay at per 190.
The healing thing should definitely be swapped from % healing done to % healing taken though. I think that makes more sense because paladin and dark knight barely get anything out of % healing done.
The design of fights also can be changed, I know the dev team doesn't always like making harder fights cause some people complain about it, but there is an ilvl minimum so having harder hitting tank busters and giving tanks higher health pools so they don't just get healed to full by 1-2 raid-wide heals would definitely make the stat more valuable.
Feel like a good way to make tenacity popular is to make it so DirectHit is a DPS-only stat (literally, like how tenacity says Tank && piety says Healer... yes, i'm aware that tank/healer gear does NOT have DH naturally, but you can still meld it).
PLD would prob be crit>det>ten at least (since skillspeed has no effect on your magiccombo, SkS is less potent on a PLD)
DRK/WAR/GNB would prob be crit>det>speed>tenacity.
OR just get rid of tenacity entirely & make it so Determination has a sentence saying "Tank-only: takes less dmg"
Yeah it is really weird that tanks and healers can get direct hit melds, while dps can't even choose to meld tenacity or piety (even if they'd never have a reason to)
There's even a possibility that the other tanks would also prefer tenacity over speed for certain builds, but who knows for sure! Back when direct hit was considered nearly useless for warriors, they preferred tenacity! 😊
The simple fact is fights aren't balanced around you having extra Tenacity. Because they can't do that. And because of that, the stat does nothing.
Pretty much yeah 😕
yea, most dmg in savages are raidwides/aoes... and it doesn't matter if the tank takes 0dmg; the healer will still have to use aoeHeals to heal the other people.
the healing part can't be overlooked either, I've healed my dps through dead's end when the healer has dropped, ive also saved a healer by giving them 50% of their health back thanks to a heal
That is very true! But in most situations, critical hit can help with that just as well if not better given how it scales better the more you have of it! 😊
But it is true that tenacity just generally becomes better in a *defensive* situation like surviving! 😀
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I completely agree but if I give you £10 per second or a chance of £15 per second only 28% of the time. You'll take the 10 :)
@byrner510 true but in this case the the comparison is significantly further apart 😊 if you were offered £60 28% of the time, it would certainly seem more enticing! Especially when you are in a situation where £10 just won't be good enough 😁
(yes the distance in healing power is that vast between a crit bonus and tenacitys reliable bonus!)
@@CaetsuChaijiCh
I agree Crit is the best dps stat in the game and it is broken. i understand how powerful it is. without going into huge detail. crit can cause huge swings in output both healing and dps.
I feel the fact we are comparing the stat to universally agreed best stat that it has a place and stacking it while not the best is viable for non optimal circumstances and could bring out a higher average given a string of bad RNG by the crit stacker. your video was well structured and i enjoyed it.
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@byrner510 I'm sorry my example maybe was a bit too optimized for crit. You are absolutely right that tenacitys reliability can outweigh the swing power of crit, and in a desperate situation, even if a big swing is more likely to save the day, reliability gives a stronger foundation to survive on. And that is of course both with tenacitys healing, and it's damage reduction combined!
Thank you very much for the nice words! 😊
it is weird how in an mmo, tank and healer "main" stats mean so little. the game just feels like a dps simulator. theres now real aggro management, spot healing, or cleansing requirements. everything is on a very strict timeline so you just dps with the occasional cd pop. the only time i tanks take any real dmg was with the p8s p2 autos but even those were timed.
It is quite weird. I wonder if it is entirely to blame on encounter design and job design, but it is at least very much because of that.
The over optimization that the player base itself has figured out might also not have helped 😅
Was a Tenacity Tank when it was Available to pick in Heavensward's Relic Weapons. Was a Tenacity Tank in Endwalker and will be a Tenacity Tank in Dawntrail. Fite me.
Of course, it is probably perfectly fine to do that for casual content, and as long as your group isn't like... Parser speedrunner types, then savage shouldn't be an issue either in most situations assuming you so that 😊
Who said I ran with groups or Savage runs? Only Savage Run I've done was A9 and 10 Solo.@@CaetsuChaijiCh
Fair enough, I didn't know for certain if you did or not so I simply wouldn't leave out the possibility 😊
I don't know im a bit iffy on it because i noticed between two builds i was taking high amounts of damage and was more "squishy" with little tenacity than another build with tenacity. If you want to put your healers to work do it man. Make peoples day. xD
Indeed, the comparison between *maximum* tenacity and minimum (zero) is around 12% damage taken, but often, it's more the difference of some gear pieces and some melds, so more likely closer to 5 or 6%.
Sometimes, I feel weirdly squishy if my healer isn't great, so it is just as much a possibility if it was random healers in your groups, that you simply had worse healers when you were using the low tenacity setup 😊
What about a solo Scenario? Could Tenacity be worth a shot (so stacking up on this stat) for solo kills in Stormblood Savage/EX Trials etc.? Espacially for Warrior because the extra plus on his Self-Heal? Great Vidos i love to watch these ;)
Thank you very much! 🥰
Usually when soloing old content unsynced, the problem isn't the overall damage you take, and only attacks that are impossible to survive. Like one shots, or hard enrages! For that reason, maximizing damage turns around and stays important! 😅
If you are in the business of soloing content synced for instance just for the fun and enjoyment, I could imagine tenacity might be great for that! 🤔😊
TENACITY IS GETTING BUFFED in DT, what a glorious DAY!
Let's not celebrate until we know how much we're talking! It would almost be even sadder if it is still inferior, but by just slightly less 😭
Thing with something like this is as the game continues it's vertical progression that number is going to keep going up and up and up and eventually hit a critical point where it suddenly becomes a must have stat on gear assuming of course no changes occur to tenacity as if they increase the conversion rate it reaches that break point sooner that is the issue with stats like this in games with vertical progression system they may not seem powerful now but given enough time they can get out of hand
Normally you'd be right, but in games like ffxiv that have effective stat "resets" with each new expansion, the stats simply never get the chance to go off in a crazy direction!
The stat values I demonstrated in this video is the peak that we will reach in endwalker.
When we level up to 100 in the next expansion, the amount you need to reach, say, 12% tenacity will increase accordingly. Meaning that the amount of tenacity needed to get 0.1% will be significantly higher than 19 to balance it.
As such, as long as they don't give us drastically more stats to work with, this will never get out of hand 😅
So what I'm hearing is that, generally speaking, a good offense is a good defence
Yeah pretty much 😊
How much would Tenacity have to be buffed to be useful? If it scaled up .1% for each 10 instead of each 19 would that make it useful?
Since, for the most part, the damage reduction portion of Tenacity is viewed as irrelevant, it would need to be at least on par with Determination to be considered - thats 40% stronger. And if that happens, then Tenacity will simply replace either Determination or Direct Hit. Rather than become "viable", it becomes the mandatory priority instead ^^'
Okay, tenacity may be bad, but what if we had twelveacity?
I think fourteenacity would actually be better than the other stats! 😁
I'm waiting for fourtytude myself, I think that's when it'll break even. :)
seeing it made me immediately think versatility in wow when i saw it first time which is 1% more damage done and 0.5% less damage taken per threshold
Yeah thats true, it is essentially Versatility. The key difference between them is that stats in WoW tends to be able to scale a lot higher throughout an expansion. So if you wanted to, you might be able to stack Versatility to a point where it really starts to make a difference!
PLD mains after watching this: 10 Reasons why you should always focus in Tenacity
The only reason paladins are even interested in tenacity is because sometimes the choice is "do you want speed or tenacity?" and paladins value speed so low in fact, that I am confident some paladins would rather have nothing than speed 😅
I will never change my mind of placing MAX possible tenacity on a DRK since its the only tank that allows you to stand in AOE´s with TBN + shadow wall so you dont have to do mechanics on normal content and seeing that 0 damage taken just gives me a big smile, but TENACITY on any other tank like PLD/GNB/WAR just sucks ass, so tenacity is only for DRK since they have the strongest shields in the whole game when you buff them with tenacity
*EDIT* playing max tenacity saved my ass on 11th circle of pandemonium when i managed to get 5 stacks of VUL since i did the colour mechanic wrong only to get hit by a tank buster right after that, but thanks to tenacity i survived with 9% hp!
The weird thing is that TBN is a shield that is designed to be broken, so I imagine a lot of DRKs would rather have less tenacity so it breaks more consistently 😂
However gigantic shields can often allow you to do game breaking stuff like ignoring certain mechanics, which is quite funny! 😁
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Yeah i know :D, but i love TENACITY DRK for just that reason and i have tried tenacity on other tanks too but only DRK has made it work like i want, oh and be proud of your video it was fantastically made!
the point for the tenacity fact stuff we can all hold on is simply that: crit, det and dh are more highly increasing dps stats than tenacity, tenacity overall is better than the accuracy we had back in heavensward, you dont want accuracy back man, i rather take that useless stat with me than a stat that determines if i can even hit from front, sides and back of a boss. but the fights arent designed in the game with tenacity in mind. most savage and ultimate bosses need to be invul anyways on a tankbuster or tankswaped. you as tank should know it will hit absolutely the crack out of you, so you use atleast 2-3 cds on savage tankbusters(rather last 2 bosses, the first 2 are kinda childplay on tankbusters) but there will never be a situation where you died to a tankbuster with cooldowns because your tenacity was to low...such bullshit stat. could swap that stat out with like...fat cat belly to reduce dmg taken by 1% for every second you lay on the ground dead.
This video made me sad. I'm fairly new (still doing heavensward MSQ) and i was prioritizing tenacity for my tank and piety for my healer until now. They are role-specific stats, for crying out loud! 😢
While making your way through the msq, the item level tends to be more crucial, but it does really suck that the role specific stats are, at best, situationally good 😥
My father told me if I ever melded for Tenacity that he would beat me senseless with a set of jumper cables. It's good to have some context as to why he's so passionate about this
That is a very interesting choice of weaponry! 😂
I hope they go more interesting route with stat like Bozja and Zadnor in future expansion like 8.0 or even 9.0 because the way it is going, it is very lackluster and it really needs things spiced up.
Yeah I agree, stats could really use an overhaul! 😅
.0015% dps difference for every point of tenacity you have vs using direct hit.
dps difference between crit is nearly impossible to calculate accurately due to crit variance, but on a good crit run the dps difference would be far more than this per point of tenacity.
So, lets say you melded like 150 points of tenacity where you could have instead melded direct hit. You would lose 2.25% damage.
With that being said, its not a terrible stat at all it all depends on what you are using it for. It is jus an unnecessary and inefficient stat in general, however it can be a good idea to run pentamelded tenacity on gear during progession and many week 1 tanks may want to go that route (I don't know any personally, but the balance does post tenacity prog sets on their discord so there must be some people that use them or why would they bother?)
but ye, don't use it tbh I never used it and I do just fine.
A very good run down!
I believe on week one there is a higher possibility that your lower ilvl compared to the later bosses may be too much at times. Others also suggested that tenacitys insurance policy like property can help with letting you prog further and see more in an attempt while still working your way to enrage 😊 like, it's all about just surviving to see more mechanics!
But as you said, the stat isn't actually terrible, the reality is that the majority of situations that you may be put in simply doesn't serve tenacity well, making all other stats that provide more damage better!
is there a way you could do something like this for piety? i need facts and logic to tell my static that no, a full piety set would NOT BE FUNNY
I have it in my notes to make one yes! Thank you for letting me know you are interested by the way! :D
And yeah that is a strange suggestion from your static! xD
I'd argue that Tenacity can be good when learning a fight (especially blind), mostly due to the passive mitigation on auto-attacks. If you're focusing on the fight and trying to recognize patterns, it can be easy to forget about mitigating auto attacks, which can add up to a substantial amount of incoming damage over the course of a fight (especially in older fights where boss autos can crit).
Doing the comparison to healers seem absolutely wrong to me, I myself found a ton of instances where a few bit more heals does save a life (like under 100 health difference), especially during progging where mistakes are abound, and gears are under leveled. Meanwhile, you could exchange that tiny sliver of healing power for 300% more damage if you want to; if you can't get anywhere near enrage, your damage does not matter at all.
It is surprising that you have a ton of instances where it made a difference, but it is often easier to remember the bad times where you wiped, than the times where it didn't make a difference.
However, you are absolutely correct that during prog, both Tenacity on tanks, and Determination and Piety on Healers are significantly more valuable due to their more defensive properties allowing you to push further when learning the fight at first.
This is often also more important when you are undergeared for the fight, especially in the first few weeks of a raid tier, since there the damage from enemies can sometimes be just on the edge. But as more gear is accumulated, these defensive stats are considered less and less important
I don't wanna play with you anymore.
* drops all my Yellow Materias *
It is a shame that they are so weak! ^^'
I have no idea why I clicked on this video but it was interesting regardless. Thx for the video!
Thank you very much! I'm glad to hear that! 😄
I think what would have taken this video to the next level was a bit of math on how much scaling tenacity would need to be worthwhile. Right now it's 1% per 190. But would it be a viable stat choice at 1.5%? 2%? etc.
I show that all the other stats are 40% better at boosting your damage than tenacity is, and then explain why the damage reduction is often considered irrelevant.
From there, I think tenacity would need a 40% buff before people would view it as a good stat, even though at that point, it would be objectively better than determination specifically, due to having the damage reduction. I don't see a huge problem with this though since tenacity is a role specific stat anyway 😊
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Tenacity wouldn't need to be equal to det, honestly. To make up some numbers, lets say 100 det = +10%, to gain another 10% from det alone would require you to reach 210 det (1.1x1.1 = 1.21). On the other hand, if 110 tenacity was +10%, now 100 det + 110 ten = +21%, vs 210 det = +21%. Of course, if TEN=DET, then people would take equal TEN to DET and DH... and the end result is just a slight boost to tank survivability. As long as TEN is close enough to DET/DH that with realistic numbers some TEN would actually be a DPS gain, then it would at least make gearing a bit more interesting for BiS by carefully weighing which TEN piece(s) to take. Piety on the other hand is a whole different beast.
the quality/price is way too low to be interesting, but i prefer tenacity over skill speed everyday :D and the damage reduction is not necessary so we prefer to go the damage route
Indeed, for some of the tanks, speed makes the job feel awkward 🤣
What if tenacity had the same interaction crit buffs do to certain attacks, but to defense cooldowns. For example, imagine Rampart increases in damage reduction the more tenacity you have. I'm not that smart when it comes to min maxing these stats, I'm really casual, so maybe that wouldn't change anything
I think it is an interesting suggestion, as it would certainly enable tenacity to do some more exciting things than it does right now! The exact percentages can be difficult to figure out, but I get the idea!
I saw someone else also suggested having tenacity affect the duration of defensive cooldowns, which is another thing that could lead to some very interesting decisions! 😁
Tenacity has its place in one specific scenario: Queuing with healers you don't know.
People complain about weak tanks and healers, but they usually can at least function. Honestly, 1/10th of the tanks or healers you end up with though... are complete hot garbage. The number of times I've had to compensate as one or the others is insane. Tanks not using any mitigation on wall-to-walls (effectively not understanding how they work), or healers not doing anything but spamming Cure or Diagnosis and being confused that it's not effective.
If you're the tank, then having some tenacity compensates for a random dungeon healer being sketchy.
Just don' t be toxic and try to tell them how to play the game. Save trying to chat with them for when they dungeon is ending, and be considerate when you do. You'd be shocked how many players aren't actually 'bad' but just have, say, leveled White Mage in PVP and have no idea Freecure is a trap, or bought into the hype and overvaluing of Kardia as a healing tool, and just could use somebody nice having a quick and positive chat with them.
This is true - depending on the tank you are playing, Tenacity can help a bit to compensate if your healer is not very confident!
I had a c1 spamming healer in a ShB or EW dungeon (cant remember which by now). Normally I'm a very permissive person, but this person did NOTHING but c1. Not even the free c2 of afflatus solace. No oGCDs, NOT EVEN THIN AIR FOR FREE CURE 2s. On top of that, our DPS was pretty low due to no healer dps and one of the dps playing very sub par. After almost dying to a single pull I said something along the lines of 'maybe using only the heal you unlocked at level 2 might not cut it in higher level content', and left. I don't normally do that stuff, but that somehow broke me.
I've had a similar experience a few times. I usually bring it up once when I spot it, but if they keep on spamming heals like that, I will just finish the dungeon as normal anyway. I will however pull more than usual if I can, and be lazier with my defensives sometimes 😉 gotta get some value out of that heal bot right?!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh I actually had an argument with a red mage in a dungeon once who was telling his healer friend to ignore my advice / that I was wrong. It was Sunken Temple of Qarn, which old hands will tell you can't be healed with Cure alone due to the alligators hitting like trucks and the dangerous bees (you need to DPS them down to stop final sting), plus no decent tank cooldowns are available yet.
We were living on my stuns to stop the stings and kiting mobs up and down stairs. It wasn't the first or last time I had to kite mob packs as a tank, but having to do it over and over in the same dungeon was grating, so I gave the healer a few pointers politely.
The healer tried casting Cure II, went "Oh, this is much better" and never went back. His friend whined that he was listening to 'an idiot' and that his friend was wasting MP by not using Freecure.
It's like... everybody has 10k MP now, my guy. Freecure is obsolete... my main class has always been a healer, btw, and my first class in this game was a White Mage. I knew what I was talking about.
@@fuzzwobble Freecure is generally considered a noob trap by most players, because healers tend to have plenty of MP to go around, but new players might not realize that.
And it doesn't help that most jobs have only traits that are genuinely helpful, so looking at White Mage, or Astrologians toolkits, it reads as if you should be using Benefic/Cure I instead, to proc the greater option, but in both cases, it is just never actually worth it due to the low proc chance, and low payoff
Good thing that the healer listened to your advice!
I think one useful way to look at that multiplicative aspect of tenacity and mit cooldowns is that if tenacity would grant you an additional 10% damage reduction or whatever, you can take whatever damage any attack does after all your mit (but before shields, unfortunately) and reduce that number by 10% to see the effect of the tenacity. Of course that works with deciding whether to add another mit to something as well.
The thing is that the fights that require the most optimal defensive cooldown management, tends to not have the tanks (or the group at large) run out of defensive cooldowns. As long as that is the case, then Tenacity's capacity to maybe save a cooldown down the line, isn't valuable enough 😅 But I see what you mean I think
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh yeah absolutely, this was just for the intuition side of additive vs. multiplicative mit. Additive makes it easy to say up front "I'm using a 30% and a 20%, so it'll be 50%" whereas multiplicative makes it easy to say "I used 30% and took 15k damage so if I use a 20% on top, it's 12k damage".
People always go on about multiplicative mit being really unintuitive, but I think either one is more intuitive in different scenarios.
Aaah that's what you meant! 😊 Yes that is a good point!
yeahhhh ... you are comparing 1% players to 99.9% players. Tenacity is better if you aren't the 1% of players at the top. On the damage bar, one must not look at the highest to get an accurate reading of the community.
You should look at the median
If you just like big numbers, then go for dps boost
if you want to have a higher chance of completion, then go for Tenacity.
If you are a 1%, go for whatever you want because it doesn't matter.
Also as a healer, i do find it easier to dps when a tank goes for tenacity for dungeons. For higher than 4 people. It doesn't matter because it's all mechanics.
The only thing you want more dps for is to skip the mechanics.
I only used the logs to demonstrate that a tanks damage is more than a healers damage, and for that, the logs are pretty good because they tend to showcase the approximate single target damage a job is capable of, with a decent spread. I even used the *median* of those logs for my demonstration.
I even added that the numbers might be slightly different on aoe packs, but again, I only used the logs to demonstrate one thing!
I feel like you are greatly underestimating the average skill level if you think only 1% of the tank players are capable of playing well enough for tenacity to not be worth it in dungeons, or that only 1% of the healer players are capable of playing well enough in dungeons that the tenacity is unneeded 😊
I also highly doubt you examine every tank you run dungeons with and check whether they have tenacity or not, and even if you did, the average tenacity stacking player is likely taking maybe 5-6% less damage than the average crit stacking tank due to how much tenacity you can meld or gear for typically, which is on top of other defensive cooldowns the tank (or you) might apply, becomes a minor detail on whether the tank needs so much healing that you need gcds for it or not.
Sure, if the tank isn't using their cooldowns right, and the healer isn't using theirs right, then tenacity is likely helping them both, but as I mentioned in the video, it works more like training wheels than anything else 😁
@@CaetsuChaijiCh average players is subjective.
I said median and nothing more.
But if you want to mention average players, then I'll be honest. They are not the same as average raiders.
And yes I don't examine every tank. I also tank, so I look at why this gunbreaker is tankier than the other and of course they run tenacity.
I also dps, so I know when I'm pulling higher than someone with someone whom has higher item level
Also, yes maybe I over exaggerated in the 1%
I'll rephrase and say maybe 40% of players. Definitely the 20% of players
FFXIV data collection is not as complete as wow data, so I don't know if the skill levels are the same percentage wise.
All I know is that in wow. Roughly
15% of m+ people and up are barely able to do +18keys.
From the video or looks like you are speaking to the average community, so I just assumed.
If you are talking about a different group of folks then you are right
@@CaetsuChaijiCh but maybe you are right, the 5%-10% is not enough damage reduction for tank busters.
it's more than enough for just dungeons though. I pull from wall to wall without using much damage reduction cd's unless there is a hard hitting trash.
Like i said, if you are doing a raid setting then run what you want.
If you want to skip mechanics, run dps.
if you are too undergeared for content, then run tenacity.
The only realistic way of making both Piety and Tenacity good is by making them also affect Direct Hit Rate... granted this means they no longer become budget stats but in exchange make Direct Hit Materia somewhat less valuable on both tanks and healers... but for all I know that might make Direct Hit more valuable instead because people want max Direct Critical Hits... Damned if you, damned if you don't...
Indeed. By the way the game is designed right now, anything you can do to make Piety and Tenacity viable as a choice, would make them overtake a different stat completely. The problem is that they both interact with things in the game where its a very "Yes or No" situation: Do you have enough MP to last the whole fight? Alright then Piety is useless. Do you have the defensives you need to survive the fight, and can you survive all big attacks throughout the fight? Alright then Tenacity isn't helping. Making healers need more MP would make Piety more helpful, but... In a mandatory way. Making enemies hit harder would make Tenacity more helpful, but in a mandatory way. I am not sure what could be done to really make them a good choice without kicking a different stat down the stairs ^^'
Here are my wishes for substats in 7.0:
1) Buff Tenacity a LOT or at least make it scale better and redesign Piety to make them both viable stats for tanks and healers respectively which is even more necessary because of my 2nd suggestion
2) Make Direct Hit a DPS only substat and also buff this slightly by making it a chance to do an extra 33% instead of 25% more damage to offset the loss of DH affecting tanks/healers
3) Merge Skill/Spell Speed into a single Speed substat
That is a good start. Honestly, I wish Direct Hit would be changed to just be something else other than "also crit, but kinda a bit worse" ^^' Overall, I would wish for a bigger overhaul of the stats to do something more interesting with the stats we get!
Why cant we get percentage rates in game?
I don't know🤔 it's really weird that of all things this is something we don't have!
I mainly tank, but I don't follow guides so this is the first I'm hearing about Tenacity being suboptimal. Thanks for the explanation!
That's fair! I'm glad you found it helpful! 😁
Beyond helping to break down why Tenacity is a terrible stat, I had no idea Healers didn't get any Direct Hit on their gear. Than you!
I'm glad you found it helpful! 😄 Thank you! 😊