I know a guild that used your philosophy of dropping healers because they could do all of ICC with only 2-3 healers and they wanted to zug. Guess what happened? In cata they cant find enough good healers and they are always pugging healers and progression has suffered. What you are saying doesnt make sense for the majority of guilds. It is better to have heals and not need them then to not have heals. There are good healers that dont like being benched and dont like being forced to switch to dps offspec. Also parsing is different as a healer, If a healer throws a 50k heal on a tank but he is only 10k hp away from max my parse will only say he healed 10k. So when a tank is standing in healing rain with hots on him and shields etc your parse is going to say you didnt do a lot of healing. I raid with two different groups one group is a GDKP that only cares about parsing and one guild group that tries to kill bosses and does all the "bad things" (mainly focuses on healers not missing assignments etc). Wanna guess which group is doing better?
Your guilds failure to recruit properly or manage its roster doesnt change what is optimal. Obviously dropping healers requires players who are competent at OS or willing to be benched or swap to alts or whatever. If you dont want to do it you dont have to. Like I said in the video, in the setting of a guild where you are going to massively overheal all the time, for whatever reason, it literally doesnt matter how you play so you might as well practice and get better at the game by playing as if you were in a real guild, and by doing so make your raid easier and smoother by doing more hps. Your anecdotal experience in a gdkp is not relevant to what is optimal. If you're playing with terrible healers, and 90% of them are, of course you have to overheal and hound players to not 'miss assignments' to get kills.
@@doublezug7193 Ok answer this question, is casting Pain suppression or Barrier optimal? Why should healers do that when they should only care about parsing?
@@stephennichol3620 externals let you heal through higher dps than your raw hps. The ideal use case is to allow you to drop healers to below the total burst hps requirement of an encounter by reducing burst damage.
I will fully admit as a disc main, since switching to you UI and changing things in my rotation to what you have said, my healing has gotten so much better! There are still a few things I have to figure out. Getting gear has been a big up for me as well. I dont know about parcing or anything like that, I know I am usually the top healer in the raid according to details but I am not sure if that is a good meter or not.
Full send crit always for every fight. Havent made a guide for chim yet but its super simple. You should just mostly atonement spam while the bot is out and then pop cds and blast poh the entire time when the bot breaks (ps/pws tank when needed). Unless you wand to pad for fun on chim in which case you can blast poh/penance as mana allows while the bot is up. Pom isnt great on chim because of how few damage instances there are. Sin you want as lottle haste as possible because the buff already gcd caps you on almost everything.
@@doublezug7193 Understood. Thank you for the reply, much appreciated. Please continue with the content I found it randomly through YT suggestion about a week ago. I had to make a switch from RestoD to Disc so there was a slight change of healing style.
1. By all means consider cutting healers. Or adding healers for that matter. Not all bosses require the same amount, and you can add and subtract depending on what you value most (raid time length, boss kill time etc). What you don't seem to understand though is that this is true within the fights as well. Some periods of the fight require 0 healers, some 1, and maybe some parts require 4. Maybe some periods require 1.5? But on that fight then, you have to play at least 4, and only when that time in the fight comes, they have to pump healing as hard as they can. This is such a basic point that the fact that you don't seem to understand it is disqualifying in itself. But anyway, this whole discussion is about what the excess healers should be doing when their healing output isn't 100% needed. Who should be the first one to take a back-seat role in healing during the periods where only 1 healer is needed and you are currently playing 4? Hint: right now in Cata, it's the one that can do 10k dps. And even if it was true that any damage a healer can do is irrelevant, it would STILL BE BETTER to literally afk, save mana, hold the GCD and be ready to save someone that fucks up. There is nothing "minmax" about 4 healers pumping at 400% during a period when 170% is needed. Except of course trying to maximize your own healing parse. And if that's what you and your group cares about that's great, but don't call it "good healing/gameplay". 2. Healing is zero sum regardless of the amount of healers. You yourself literally give an example where you add the HPS of 2 healers in your raid, and subtract the damage taken by the raid, getting 0. Every encounter has countless moments where parts of the raid take damage in various ways, and it can be handled in lots of different ways. You have to choose 1 way though, you cannot choose them all each time. Those who disagree with you are simply saying it's a bit cringe hearing someone talk about "minmaxing" while spamming 75% overhealing Prayer of Healings and PW: Shield, while 6 healing Maloriak, leaving every single healer at 42% overhealing or more (the majority on 50% or more). Great parse though I guess. 3. Dropping healers usually come at the cost of increasing the risk to wipe. Though as you correctly point out, a lot of people, if not most, value their parses a lot, especially DPS players, so they are willing to play more on that edge. So let's say I drop healers. Why would I want you in the raid? You admit that your #1 priority is to increase your HPS, and your logs show it clearly. You'd Prayer of Healing a single target just to apply Divine Aegis if they accidentally pulled a critter. The problem is, healing simply works as I described in point 1; there WILL. BE. times where your healing isn't needed. Why would I want someone who isn't willing to play optimally, and potentially shave off 2-5 seconds on the kill time?
On nefarian, after a crackle, you can either heal the tanks or heal the raid. healing the tanks is essential; they take damage immedietly afterwards from melee attacks. The raid will not take any more damage until the next crackle- atleast 20 seconds later usually- atleast if you play properly. A healer topping the tanks first and then healing the raid will have lower HPS than a healer immedietly healing the raid, because AoE healing gives higher HPS. However, if all your healers play like that you will never kill the boss. Healing is about understanding and properly prioritizing who to heal when, not about topping HPS. Most healer related wipes ive had has been due to people spamming AoE heals when they should focus on healing tanks. Few fights are pure HPS fights. With that said; everything equal and healers properly prioritizing, the more skilled player will have higher HPS. But very few fights are like this. Healing parses are very flawed, as are DPS parses on many fights. You should consider HPS, but only as one factor out of many when it comes to comparing healer skills.
Nef is an exception. The only reason it's true that you need a dedicated tank healer on nef is because most strats have tanks too far from the raid for healers to heal both. Even in the case of nef, though, the tank healer can parse highly by maxing hps on the kitong tank, soloing add tank, etc. If a bdk main tank is dying it's just as likely his fault for doing low hps, not snapping death strikes with damage, not rotating personals properly, not calling for externals, etc. If a bdk is playing properly in cata they can live through 95% of tank damage with the passive healing (beacon, lifebloom, etc) only, especially on reclears now that we massively overgear t11. You shouldn't have to cast more than a handful of direct heals on tanks if your tanks and healers are playing properly. It's also not true that tank healing is lower hps. For NON DISC healers a well placed fully effective bomb heal on the tank is more ehps than a heal on the raid that will overheal. Part of the skill of healing is knowing exactly when that 5% is when you need to bomb into the tank that will both increase your hps and save the tank from dying. Spamming unnecessary tank heals is just as pointless as spamming wild growth into a full HP raid. For disc specifically sending a rapture pws/poh/pom into the tank is almost ALWAYS going to be higher value than actually casting a GH or penance into the tank because of how absorbs work. Your overhealing on the direct portion of poh is a red herring. The absorb it generates and refreshes islso strong that it's almost never correct to cast anything other than poh, even on a completely topped raid, assuming you have the mana to sustain spamming it. Disc is the last healer you want casting direct heals into the tank (other than passive healing like rapture, atonement for evangelism, etc.)
@@bidu2331324 its true on nef, and on sinestra atleast. They are also the hardest fights thus its the ones you actually have to get right. And prioritizing who to heal is always relevant
Very similar. Poh is actually better on avg in 10m because random damage is much more likely to occur to players in the same group when there are fewer players in the raid. You will end up atonementing more if you dont solo heal though, given that many fights in 10m dont actually require two healers worth of hps. With full gear you can probably solo heal most fights in T11 on disc, though.
glad to see other people out there that understand this stuff and be vocal about it because healing is a pretty niche misunderstood role in this game, not many people are very good at it. great videos man
100% Agree as always. Dude those who complain about us PoHing etc rather than full atonement are only those disc priest that were secretly getting carried in wrath by their braindead 1 button shielding gameplay. Now that disc has high skill cap and needs dynamic brain power, they’re advocating for atonement gameplay, so they can get the exemption for turning their brain off, minimize their responsibility, spam smite and get carried again
Be that as it may the comment I replied to was shitting on 1 button spam in wrath b while essentially saying that they spam 1 button in cata. I had to reply to it due to the hypocrisy
@@randocardrissian9330 disc in low gear heroics/t11 prog is the highest skill cap healer in cata. As gear scales up and mana stops mattering all the healers get considerably easier.
Arguing that dad guilds should drop healers because it's a waste of resources is complete nonsense because it ignores why dad guilds ARE dad guilds. Dad guilds are littered with wasted resources and lost time. Without fail the average 25 dad guild will have half the raid either AFK after a farm kill taking their 9th bathroom break for the raid that started 90 minutes ago, or sitting with the boss loot window open and trying to decide if that item is a minor upgrade on the last item the guide that wasn't written for them told them to aim for, or drinking next to the bosses corpse, while the remaining 12 line up at the next trash pack and wonder "what the bleeding hell are these idiots doing?!?". Shaving 15 seconds off a bosskill by dropping a healer in this scenario is urinating on a bushfire and expecting it to matter. From that perspective, this entire video is the equivalent of guides written in TBC for hunters that said "see all this leather? It's your BIS!". Except for more than half the audience, it wasn't. Not even close. Because the guide was written by a dude who's guild never saw Illidan turn into his phase 3 demon form, so this idiot's advice was causing more than half the audience to run around in viper because there's no int on all their "BIS leather" and their mana pools couldn't cope with a dad guild's kill times. Your advice is pertinent to speedrunners - who already know it. Otherwise, you are really just pissing in the wind Mr Zug.
Absolutely DUNKING on the shitters commenting on the last video.
"You are objectively wrong" makes bad healers seethe.
I know a guild that used your philosophy of dropping healers because they could do all of ICC with only 2-3 healers and they wanted to zug. Guess what happened? In cata they cant find enough good healers and they are always pugging healers and progression has suffered.
What you are saying doesnt make sense for the majority of guilds. It is better to have heals and not need them then to not have heals. There are good healers that dont like being benched and dont like being forced to switch to dps offspec.
Also parsing is different as a healer, If a healer throws a 50k heal on a tank but he is only 10k hp away from max my parse will only say he healed 10k. So when a tank is standing in healing rain with hots on him and shields etc your parse is going to say you didnt do a lot of healing.
I raid with two different groups one group is a GDKP that only cares about parsing and one guild group that tries to kill bosses and does all the "bad things" (mainly focuses on healers not missing assignments etc). Wanna guess which group is doing better?
Your guilds failure to recruit properly or manage its roster doesnt change what is optimal.
Obviously dropping healers requires players who are competent at OS or willing to be benched or swap to alts or whatever.
If you dont want to do it you dont have to.
Like I said in the video, in the setting of a guild where you are going to massively overheal all the time, for whatever reason, it literally doesnt matter how you play so you might as well practice and get better at the game by playing as if you were in a real guild, and by doing so make your raid easier and smoother by doing more hps.
Your anecdotal experience in a gdkp is not relevant to what is optimal. If you're playing with terrible healers, and 90% of them are, of course you have to overheal and hound players to not 'miss assignments' to get kills.
@@doublezug7193 Ok answer this question, is casting Pain suppression or Barrier optimal? Why should healers do that when they should only care about parsing?
@@stephennichol3620 externals let you heal through higher dps than your raw hps. The ideal use case is to allow you to drop healers to below the total burst hps requirement of an encounter by reducing burst damage.
I will fully admit as a disc main, since switching to you UI and changing things in my rotation to what you have said, my healing has gotten so much better! There are still a few things I have to figure out. Getting gear has been a big up for me as well. I dont know about parcing or anything like that, I know I am usually the top healer in the raid according to details but I am not sure if that is a good meter or not.
For 10man, specifically Sinestra/Chim. Is it worth reforging a mastery, crit or a mastery/crit focused for spamming PoH?
Full send crit always for every fight. Havent made a guide for chim yet but its super simple. You should just mostly atonement spam while the bot is out and then pop cds and blast poh the entire time when the bot breaks (ps/pws tank when needed). Unless you wand to pad for fun on chim in which case you can blast poh/penance as mana allows while the bot is up. Pom isnt great on chim because of how few damage instances there are.
Sin you want as lottle haste as possible because the buff already gcd caps you on almost everything.
@@doublezug7193 Understood. Thank you for the reply, much appreciated. Please continue with the content I found it randomly through YT suggestion about a week ago. I had to make a switch from RestoD to Disc so there was a slight change of healing style.
@@monkeyhunkeytunkey yw, if you have question or want log reviews my dms are open on disc
1. By all means consider cutting healers. Or adding healers for that matter. Not all bosses require the same amount, and you can add and subtract depending on what you value most (raid time length, boss kill time etc). What you don't seem to understand though is that this is true within the fights as well. Some periods of the fight require 0 healers, some 1, and maybe some parts require 4. Maybe some periods require 1.5? But on that fight then, you have to play at least 4, and only when that time in the fight comes, they have to pump healing as hard as they can. This is such a basic point that the fact that you don't seem to understand it is disqualifying in itself.
But anyway, this whole discussion is about what the excess healers should be doing when their healing output isn't 100% needed. Who should be the first one to take a back-seat role in healing during the periods where only 1 healer is needed and you are currently playing 4? Hint: right now in Cata, it's the one that can do 10k dps. And even if it was true that any damage a healer can do is irrelevant, it would STILL BE BETTER to literally afk, save mana, hold the GCD and be ready to save someone that fucks up. There is nothing "minmax" about 4 healers pumping at 400% during a period when 170% is needed. Except of course trying to maximize your own healing parse. And if that's what you and your group cares about that's great, but don't call it "good healing/gameplay".
2. Healing is zero sum regardless of the amount of healers. You yourself literally give an example where you add the HPS of 2 healers in your raid, and subtract the damage taken by the raid, getting 0. Every encounter has countless moments where parts of the raid take damage in various ways, and it can be handled in lots of different ways. You have to choose 1 way though, you cannot choose them all each time. Those who disagree with you are simply saying it's a bit cringe hearing someone talk about "minmaxing" while spamming 75% overhealing Prayer of Healings and PW: Shield, while 6 healing Maloriak, leaving every single healer at 42% overhealing or more (the majority on 50% or more). Great parse though I guess.
3. Dropping healers usually come at the cost of increasing the risk to wipe. Though as you correctly point out, a lot of people, if not most, value their parses a lot, especially DPS players, so they are willing to play more on that edge. So let's say I drop healers. Why would I want you in the raid? You admit that your #1 priority is to increase your HPS, and your logs show it clearly. You'd Prayer of Healing a single target just to apply Divine Aegis if they accidentally pulled a critter.
The problem is, healing simply works as I described in point 1; there WILL. BE. times where your healing isn't needed. Why would I want someone who isn't willing to play optimally, and potentially shave off 2-5 seconds on the kill time?
Why would you want me in your raid? You would never have the opportunity because I play with good players who understand the game lmao.
@@doublezug7193 sounds like you're the one who is malding here, buddy
@@doublezug7193cope
@@doublezug7193 you sound pretty cool and collected in your videos but kinda exposed your true self here in the comment
@@nith5663 yes im secretly evil and mean
On nefarian, after a crackle, you can either heal the tanks or heal the raid. healing the tanks is essential; they take damage immedietly afterwards from melee attacks. The raid will not take any more damage until the next crackle- atleast 20 seconds later usually- atleast if you play properly.
A healer topping the tanks first and then healing the raid will have lower HPS than a healer immedietly healing the raid, because AoE healing gives higher HPS. However, if all your healers play like that you will never kill the boss.
Healing is about understanding and properly prioritizing who to heal when, not about topping HPS.
Most healer related wipes ive had has been due to people spamming AoE heals when they should focus on healing tanks.
Few fights are pure HPS fights.
With that said; everything equal and healers properly prioritizing, the more skilled player will have higher HPS. But very few fights are like this. Healing parses are very flawed, as are DPS parses on many fights. You should consider HPS, but only as one factor out of many when it comes to comparing healer skills.
Nef is an exception. The only reason it's true that you need a dedicated tank healer on nef is because most strats have tanks too far from the raid for healers to heal both. Even in the case of nef, though, the tank healer can parse highly by maxing hps on the kitong tank, soloing add tank, etc.
If a bdk main tank is dying it's just as likely his fault for doing low hps, not snapping death strikes with damage, not rotating personals properly, not calling for externals, etc. If a bdk is playing properly in cata they can live through 95% of tank damage with the passive healing (beacon, lifebloom, etc) only, especially on reclears now that we massively overgear t11.
You shouldn't have to cast more than a handful of direct heals on tanks if your tanks and healers are playing properly. It's also not true that tank healing is lower hps. For NON DISC healers a well placed fully effective bomb heal on the tank is more ehps than a heal on the raid that will overheal. Part of the skill of healing is knowing exactly when that 5% is when you need to bomb into the tank that will both increase your hps and save the tank from dying. Spamming unnecessary tank heals is just as pointless as spamming wild growth into a full HP raid.
For disc specifically sending a rapture pws/poh/pom into the tank is almost ALWAYS going to be higher value than actually casting a GH or penance into the tank because of how absorbs work. Your overhealing on the direct portion of poh is a red herring. The absorb it generates and refreshes islso strong that it's almost never correct to cast anything other than poh, even on a completely topped raid, assuming you have the mana to sustain spamming it. Disc is the last healer you want casting direct heals into the tank (other than passive healing like rapture, atonement for evangelism, etc.)
@@bidu2331324 its true on nef, and on sinestra atleast. They are also the hardest fights thus its the ones you actually have to get right.
And prioritizing who to heal is always relevant
Damn bro. #getgood attitude all the way! "Dadguilds" hahaha.
Our guild runs 10 mans (2x) because we can’t make 25 man work this phase. Can you do a video on 10 man disc? If it is different at all
Atonement is your best friend if you want to be playing correctly
Very similar. Poh is actually better on avg in 10m because random damage is much more likely to occur to players in the same group when there are fewer players in the raid. You will end up atonementing more if you dont solo heal though, given that many fights in 10m dont actually require two healers worth of hps. With full gear you can probably solo heal most fights in T11 on disc, though.
U got a disc bud ? To change and ask for infos and etc
Not yet. I should probably make one but I'm LAZY. Dms are open though if you have questions or logs or anything.
@@doublezug7193 sure i'll hit u up. Thanks for the content, healing community needed it
glad to see other people out there that understand this stuff and be vocal about it because healing is a pretty niche misunderstood role in this game, not many people are very good at it. great videos man
100% Agree as always.
Dude those who complain about us PoHing etc rather than full atonement are only those disc priest that were secretly getting carried in wrath by their braindead 1 button shielding gameplay. Now that disc has high skill cap and needs dynamic brain power, they’re advocating for atonement gameplay, so they can get the exemption for turning their brain off, minimize their responsibility, spam smite and get carried again
Based take. Bad healers getting exposed in cata.
So you are saying disc went from braindead one button shielding with PW:S In wrath to braindead one button shielding with PoH in data?
@@randocardrissian9330 its not for t11-t12 but in ds gear you will be basically a one button healer, yes.
Be that as it may the comment I replied to was shitting on 1 button spam in wrath b while essentially saying that they spam 1 button in cata. I had to reply to it due to the hypocrisy
@@randocardrissian9330 disc in low gear heroics/t11 prog is the highest skill cap healer in cata. As gear scales up and mana stops mattering all the healers get considerably easier.
lol what a noob
Goddamn, if i made this video it would be an hour long and say basically nothing more. Well said!
Arguing that dad guilds should drop healers because it's a waste of resources is complete nonsense because it ignores why dad guilds ARE dad guilds.
Dad guilds are littered with wasted resources and lost time. Without fail the average 25 dad guild will have half the raid either AFK after a farm kill taking their 9th bathroom break for the raid that started 90 minutes ago, or sitting with the boss loot window open and trying to decide if that item is a minor upgrade on the last item the guide that wasn't written for them told them to aim for, or drinking next to the bosses corpse, while the remaining 12 line up at the next trash pack and wonder "what the bleeding hell are these idiots doing?!?". Shaving 15 seconds off a bosskill by dropping a healer in this scenario is urinating on a bushfire and expecting it to matter.
From that perspective, this entire video is the equivalent of guides written in TBC for hunters that said "see all this leather? It's your BIS!". Except for more than half the audience, it wasn't. Not even close. Because the guide was written by a dude who's guild never saw Illidan turn into his phase 3 demon form, so this idiot's advice was causing more than half the audience to run around in viper because there's no int on all their "BIS leather" and their mana pools couldn't cope with a dad guild's kill times.
Your advice is pertinent to speedrunners - who already know it. Otherwise, you are really just pissing in the wind Mr Zug.
Lol