EAA AIrVenture 2023 Simulation Exhibits
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2023
- A look at the Flight Simulation Exhibitors at the 2023 EAA AirVenture and a short editorial statement on how EAA may be falling short on leveraging the recent explosion of interest in home flight sims.
Refreshing to hear a good down to earth review, without blindly praising where no praise was due. Well done, and very appreciated.
that is what we expect from Russ
Great video, right to the point. We should see more home-based sim presence in Oshkosh. Home-based sims promote aviation, learning, safety and are a great gateway to flying for younger generations.
I can confirm that flight simulators get people interested in aviation. I grew up with MSFS 98 and never stopped looking up at the sky.
This was a very astute analysis of EAA and the current status of the SIM options. I like your recommendation for having more affordable home based sims on display. EAA should not just be a dealer showcase, but more of a convention for the exchange of aeronautical knowledge through seminars and workshops.
Totally agree with you Russ in every single point, I am member of a modest airclub based in the center of Spain, with a small flying school and using all these new techenologies we have been able to create two nice simulators one analog c172 type of thing, fully functional, with all buttons, knobs etc, running with xplane and airmanager and a couple of arduinos, and another one with a realsimgear G1000 for more advance training, and it is unbelievable the amount of traing hours you save (in out case for free), before jumping into the real aircraft, or when weather conditions obligue to stay on ground... so we are in the same page, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us
Thanks for the testimonial.
Top overview , much appreciated.
Hi Russ. Jason from Infinite Flight here (the top of my head is featured in the video). I appreciate your thoughts and review. EAA is a very tough organization to penetrate. We were very close to adding a benefit to their young Eagles program but down to the wire, someone at the top didn’t get it and pulled the plug. It’s still a very tough sell, even for “real” sims. Also I’m pretty sure they’ve had a sim pavilion before over toward the WomenVenture area. We weren’t interested in that since it was a ghost town much of the time and folks could purposely avoid it. We’d rather be where the action is in the hangars. This is true at AeroFriedrichshafen in Germany as well. The sim area is pretty dead. Would love to chat next year when you’re around the booth. Cheers.
Hey, Russ! Nice "state-of-the-show" video. Clear and informative.
I agree, consolidation of the sim exhibits would be helpful. This year I missed some of the ones you mentioned. I also like the idea of the Flight Simulation Association partnering in some way with EAA. Thanks for the review.
Thanks Russ good information, I was there this year and missed seeing half of those sims
Another good video Russ.I have learned a lot from you on utube.
You make a good point, Russ and have some great suggestions. I hope the EAA is watching.
Very informative video. Thank You.
Having never attended Oshkosh Air show, I have been curious about the simulation gear exhibited there - and this video answered my curiosity. Your editorial comments and perspective were much welcomed too!
I also share your opinions regarding affordability, and its role in introducing youth into aviation. And your comment about how most companies are not too keen of exhibiting at a weeklong event rings true to me. Your video was great for 1) showing me what I missed and 2) great insight on how this could be made better. Many thanks for a terrific video.
I fully agree with Russ, as I found the sim experience at Airventure this year less interesting and forward-looking than previous years. It is also my opinion that a dedicated home flight sim area within Airventure could be very attractive to younger people and those who are more interested in "experimental" sim home building and flying. Additionally, as a pilot who tries to stay current, it would be good to share new sim building techniques with other pilots and non-pilots there. I don't fully understand why there isn't a workshop for that, as I am sure it would be very popular and bring more people in. Great video, really captures the issues there.
Hey Russ, nice commentary here. I agree that “flight sims” such as X-Plane and MSFS are great tools for staying sharp. I enjoy your prospective, thanks for sharing.
💯%. Thank you. 👍
Thanks Russ for the review. I haven't been to EAA yet but am planning on going next year. I was, however , at the FSA Expo in Houston and was very impressed with all of the exhibits and presentations they had. I am not currently a pilot but have become very involved in flightsim, both to learn more about flying and the pleasure I get from building and flying my home cockpit. I can see by your video I would have been disappointed in the flightsim offerings at the show but, of course, the rest of it looks amazing. In my opinion, flightsimulation is the ultimate gateway to aviation for anyone, especially the younger generations, that are interested in becoming pilots, especially as a career. Again, thanks for taking the time,as always, for making this video.
Hope to see you there next year!
Russ - spot on - those are my (almost) exact sentiments. The only difference being, I don't think having the sim time at the end of the week works - as most people are heading out Thursday and by Sunday, it is a comparative ghost town. Last year, I ran into Evan (FSExpo/FSA) at AirVenture and I know he would like to see the sim world expand at AirVenture as well. I also feel that a Sim specific area would be of great benefit. I was actually at AirVenture camping starting 4 days before the show, and somehow managed to miss the HoneyComb area - ugh. I think if Microsoft can get back there (they sponsored a hanger a few years ago) that really sets the stage for maybe other sim vendors to show up as well. I am sure cost is a huge issue, and would love to try and convince EAA to cut us simmers a break to get a community there.
Good point on the last weekend. I have usually come early and left Friday but did stay once to the very end. It was 2019 when Sim Innovations came to exhibit and I had to retrieve my equipment lent to help then build the booth. Maybe a regular booth duration for the entire show could work. I just think there could be a real synergy here and much more than the drone focus a few years ago when they devoted a lot of show space including the drone cage. Flight sims are a mich better fit with the EAA culture.
Great commentary and insights as always Russ!
I think we at Simstrumentation could/should go next year. If somehow our open sourced approach to giving to the flight sim community could be expanded by attending and maybe even having a “booth” would be really cool. I’ll have to chat with the other gents to see what we could do. BTW, I’m “Toddimus” of the Simstrumentation clan. Deputy to brothers Crunch, FLRob and Tick, amongst others who have joined our ranks.
Yes maybe we could start a grass roots movement in the right direction by conducting a few simulation forums and have a meet up event at the show. If we had enough guys we could share the booth duties so it isn’t too onerous. Seven days and about $3000 for the booth is all it would take. We could block off some area at Camp Scholler to camp together.
Hi Russ,
A2A not participating the last few years has less to do with EAA/AirVenture and more to do with work loads and Scott's availability.
A little birdie told me he may attend next year :)
Great video and great summary. Thanks as always.
Great to hear. The new A2A MSFS2020 Comanche is AWESOME!
Feb 28th this year I was terrified of flying and had no interest in flying aircraft and was beginning to dread going onto big airliners as well. March 1st I bought MSFS on a whim and a recommendation from a friend that I could take some nice screenshots, March 10th I crossed 100 hours in sim, May 7th I took a real life GA discovery flight, Today, August 8th, I completed my first unassisted landing as a student pilot.
Sims are the gateway drug to aviation and absolutely have their place. As a semi-outsider I'd say GA is dying a slow death with few planes produced each year at ever increasing prices flown by the old and almost old. Getting the kids into the experience and letting people who have never considered aviation to dip their toes may well be the shot of life this hobby needs, especially outside the US.
Thanks for your personal testimony.
Thank you for that great video on EAA Airventure! always wnated to go but to costly and one day is not enough! and a week is not posible due to cost and accommodation is impossible to get.
Camping is available and cheap. Rent a small pop up trailer to tow if you don’t want to sleep in a tent.
I think what you're saying makes great sense. In fact, EAA should appoint you it's home flight sim outreach coordinator and let you organize the recommendations you made in the video (if you'd be willing to do it).
It always amazes me how the "gateway drug" is neglected so adamantly with these flight expos, but on the other hand with $$$ involved, it does not. Something as simple as learning all kneeboard procedures for the aircraft you are flying in a simulator can take hours off training time required. Specific airport's approach, missed approach, and holding patterns for visual, rnav, ils, gps vectors...
And yet again no love for the rotor wing aircraft in any simulators.
Is there a recommendation for helicopter flight simulator with proper flight dynamics? DCS World, and the Huey seem to be the most well regarded for flight dynamics. Does X-Plane have anything worth looking at? I am hesitant to start DCS World - each piece is a paid for option, and they all look so shiny and neat! :D
Great video. I think home simulators are the most exciting sim sector. The cost of monitors and desktop pcs has dropped and systems modeling and flight dynamics in XP 12 are outstanding. Honeycomb makes great quality yokes and power quadrants but has been lacking in software updates for the latest versions of XP. Their products are high quality but costly for the home simmer.
I agree, I would love to see an area dedicated to home sim set ups. I also would like to see a simplified path to a home BATD with off the shelf components. Perhaps a standardized system that could be easily approved at your local FSDO. It seems crazy to me that I can build my own airplane, get it approved and log time in it, but I can not log time for instrument currency in my home sim.
It would be nice if they would make more realistic flight simulators that weren't based on the Cirrus. If Garmin or Dynon had a G3X or HDX screen, home builders could make almost any home sim fit their actual plane. Sure, a lot of stuff can be emulated but the real deal would be perfect. Also, it would be nice if the FAA would allow sim parts could be approved rather than a whole BATD or AATD set up. They almost all use XPlane for software. Have the peripheral gear, yokes, pedals, throttles, screens what have you, get approved by the FAA for a sim. Most home sims put these approved sims to shame.
They had a sim fly in to AirVenture. It helped train the real controllers.
Hi Russ. Thanks for sharing your video of your 2023 EAA AirVenture visit. I was looking at some of the flight sims on your video and noticed they had multiple screens for outside visuals and inside instrument panels and I only saw one computer. I have viewed your past videos of you testing whether you can get by with one computer when X-Plane went to Vulkan and another video with the Pluggable's USB hub that had two hdmi ports to alleviate the need of a second computer's GPU. So, I have to ask, are we there yet? Can a modest modern 2023 computer system with a 4070 or above Nvidia GPU comfortably handle one of those flight sim systems on your video or a flight sim system like yours if you were to redo those test videos again? Or is two computers still needed. And on a side note, are you using one computer now or still with two PC's? Have you upgraded your PC with a newer CPU and GPU? Again, thanks for sharing your EAA AirVenture visit with us. Take care.
Some of those videos are aging and the computer hardware keeps moving forward. There are many new computers that can handle three HD monitors plus a couple panel monitors as well. Since I have started using VR a good amount I have upgraded to a tenth gen i9 CPU and a RTX4080 GPU and it can handle everything for a capable flat screen setup as described above with no problem. Life is so much easier on a single computer. Hope this helps.
Also MSFS does not have a commercial licence as far as I know, hence can’t be used for flight school training….
good point.
As a 10 year old I watched a neighbor build his own bi-plane. I flew control line gas model planes. Just imagine if I was introduced to a home sim hobby as an alternative to the above. What could I have learned prior to the $ 10 Cessna introductory ride at age 15
Yes I flew control line planes and read the library book “Your private pilot’s license” over and over. Truly amazing what we have today.
There needs to be a forum for people new to flight simming or don't know much about it
2nd point is people bring their home built airplanes and restored vintage airplanes to airventure so in the same spirit, there should be a building where people can bring their DIY sim setups to show off basic, intermediate, and super fancy builds. Each with component lists and costs so people know what they are looking at. Then list out all the reasons its a good idea to have a home sim, school sim, or airport sim available to people. Basically a dedicated site or building for people to tour and learn about the world of flight sims.
There was a Flight Sims for Beginners forum at the EAA Learn to Fly center that I attended, it was offered by a guy from Sporty’s Pilot shop and was not bad. I should have mentioned it in the video. That was only one of hundreds of forums though and offered only on e during the week.
I worte the forward for a good beginners book "Flight Sims for Beginners"
www.amazon.com/Flight-Simulation-Beginners-Guide-Started-ebook/dp/B0C842JM1L/ref=sr_1_3?crid=HOVMXLIX7UY7&keywords=flight+simulation+for+beginners&qid=1691270263&s=books&sprefix=flight+simimulation+for+beginners%2Cstripbooks%2C74&sr=1-3
I would like to see how they kept everything powered and cooled.
How about gravity? Will it move forward if you pull back and let go as on a real aircraft will cable connected control surfaces? Crosswinds? What about rudder pedals? How does it compare to Brunner?
Would you consider doing a review of the Tobii Eye Tracker 5?
Sorry it looks really interesting but I’m pretty involved in VR now so I can’t justify over €200 to just test something I probably won’t use.
@@rbarlow I understand, thanks.
I really want Honeycomb to succeed but they do need to work on their supply issues. Getting any spare parts is basically impossible which is super frustrating. I still love the Alpha and Bravo though.
Yes they seem to understand what simmers want and can design it but they have left big bucks on the table by being unable to meet demand… which forces customers to other manufacturer’s often inferior designs. A shame.
I agree with your comments and I also feel that these manufacturers are missing a market to produce a flute sim that is reachable by most aviation people. I’ve been looking at the difference things on the web, some are even way to much out of my reach and as for home build 🤪🤪😵💫 that will be the day, and of course you have the computer knowledge needs for us old farts too.
Have you considered an X-Box and a Velocity One from Turtle Beach? That'll get you running MSFS2020...
Thanks Russ! Very well put, and as a home flight sim enthusiast, I couldn't agree more. But I think you've answered your own question. Why the lack of emphasis on home flight sims? Listen to your video just before the 5 minute mark. There's an absolute disdain for home flight sims, apparently because they are fun. You describe Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 as "even more game-like." Microsoft would tell you that the activities depicted in MSFS 2024 are REAL aviation industries. Why should someone pursue a career in aviation? To accurately demonstrate text-book maneuvers? FAA certification is all but irrelevant in home flight sims, as you imply - not worth the hassle nor the money. Yet the aerodynamics are extremely realistic and valuable as training tools. I could not agree more that EAA should be more friendly to home flight sims. If we want to attract a younger generation of aviators, step 1 is to stop bashing the home flight simulators that do exactly that. Thanks again, Russ!
Stan, I will concede that as a recruiting tool to attract younger folks into aviation, MSFS gameplay has great value. As a lifelong professional pilot I have difficulty thinking of sims as an amusement rather than as a tool for pilot skills development. That's my hang-up but I suspect I am not the only EAA pilot that with that view. The problem is that most pilots have no idea what the capabilities of modern home sims are. They only take them seriously when they have the FAA's imprimatur as "Approved" to log time. They don't realize the substantial value that even non-approved home sims can provide by reducing actual inflight training hours required, learning complex navigation hardware, maintaining proficiency, and using scenario based flights to develop aeronautical decision making skills. I think our mission should be to educate pilots on the value of home flight sims. I will admit that I do frequently don my VR headset and enjoy a sightseeing flight over some area of the world I either have flown before or wish I had...for fun. I would say we are both right depending on our audience. For real life pilots the focus needs to be on training value, which most pilots consider fun too. For the uninitiated, fun, as you say, is a great draw to this hobby we all love. The great news is that I see our goals and unified and complementary. I would love to see EAA as a vehicle to help show the benefits of home sims. Thanks for your insightful comments.
@@rbarlow 100% agree on all. I have no where near your flight credentials, but more than 350 hours on home sims, latest versions of both, many in tandem with real-world training. I think a lot of people tried MSFS or X-Plane even just a few years ago, when the aerodynamics were not there. That's all I can figure, because stall / spin recovery, steep turns, adverse yaw, region of reversed command, ... all are very accurately represented in home sims. I absolutely agree that we have to be clear on our goal - whether attracting people to the industry or training. I think today's home sims do both, and we set one up at our local EAA chapter. Old guys like me think fun means unproductive, but I have to remember that the best training tools are the ones you will actually use. Thanks again for posting this great video. I have subscribed to your channel. For more of my rant, see my blog post: studentpilotcommunity.com/benefits-of-flight-simulators-in-pilot-training/
Best to you!
MSFS was never designed for FAA approval. It's for entertaining proposes.
And I think it will never be.
But you miss a point. MSFS is versatile and you can set it up like you want it to be.
The same will be for MSFS 2024.
I am one of those aging aviators, Russ mentioned, and I do like his videos. But his bias towards xplane is at times hard to listen to. Your comments are right on. The explosion in flight sim is because of msfs. I talked to a lot of actual pilots, and our first experience with the wheels leaving the runway is the same. We chose to fly because we love to look out the windshield at the world. Even as much as xplane 12 has tried looking out, the windshield has never excited me.
I think as a pilot, we should be concerned with the future of GA. If we need a game like experience to attract a younger generation, then we should brace all Sims.
Russ, as an experienced pilot and a sim enthusiast, have you considered motion rigs? In comparison to VR in magnitude of enhancement to the sim experience, how does a motion rig measure up? Is it as dramatic a leveling up (no pun intended) or is it more of a novelty?
It’s funny you ask, because I have been researching this recently. I think Denwright motion can have a real positive affect on the realism, but the ones that I’ve tried so far have not been implemented correctly. The jerky stepper, motor input and poor washout algorithms haven’t convinced me yet. If it’s done incorrectly, it can make things even worse than not having it at all. Of course I have seen a number of non-pilots who don’t know what it should feel like rave about how they love the motion rigs they have. Watch my channel and I will let you know if I find something that I’m willing to commit to.
@@rbarlow Oh maybe it's you then that made comments on another youtube video about the missing washout aspect of motion simulators that I agreed with and made me question whether these things were more gamey than accurate. I actually got in touch with the lead guy at DOF about that. He said this came from the software itself, they were just doing what the software told them to do. He said he didn't understand how it could be wrong if the software was FAA certified.
I've wondered about jerkiness too. It would be painful to spend as much as a motion simulator costs only to find out it's just a glorified clunky arcade seat that adds no real value. I'm subscribed to your channel and trust your judgment so I'll be on the lookout for any further insight you give on this issue.
Yes I think the cost in aviation is prohibited even at THE basic roots of flight SIM.
There needs to be more concerted effort of getting lower cost in this field.
I know it's difficult because insurance and products and inflation etc. But I think you hit it with breaking it into 2 separate areas one for the adults and 1 for the kids. I truly believe with all the money that's being made over this week investment that people have getting there and they're planes and their cars by an airline. Driving whatever the Show has become about.money money money money grab..!!!!!😢😢😢😢
I can't afford a VisionJet, but can afford that sweet-as5 sim.
Hi Russ is there a way i can talk to you. I'm planning on building a home sim i'd love to ask you a few questions. thanks
send some contact info and we can connect
Still no follow up video where you admit you were wrong about MSFS 2024?
Wrong?
@@rbarlow yes. In your betrayal video. You made quite a lot of assumptions that did not turn out to be true.
@@tubeloobs I need to watch it again to refresh my memory but I still maintain it will never be used in a certified FAA training device in its current state and proposed development roadmap. I love the eye candy. I saw a guy is using the MSFS visuals in XP… still an early beta but that would be the best of both worlds.
@@rbarlow it not being certified for FAA training means zilch. 2024 could have the best of everything and MS could choose to not pursue certification. And that involves hooking the sim up to expensive hardware anyway. For the vast majority of users, it isn't necessary.
@@rbarlow Again you miss the point, Russ. MSFS is versatile and you can set it up to your preferences. It can be game like or more simulator like. The choice are yours. Right now I'm flying the PMDG, Fenix and many other aircraft in MSFS like I did in XP11, P3d and FSX. Just better visuals overall for MSFS. And the same will be for MSFS2024. It's all there in the settings.
NASA, never a straight answer.
😀
Flight simulation has become more of a screenshot vanity game than a simulation thanks to the MSFS development team and its community team. It "looks" and "talks" like aviation, but it lives on the love of photography much more than aviation. No wonder the EAA and flight simulation companies are stumped in this regard.
AirVenture could be the greatest place for flight simulation, but MSFS has other ideas, and it shows. The MSFS presentation at FSExpo was more of the same thing - "look and talk" but fumbling through it all.
I agree with your somewhat unpopular view. MSFS2024 is a game masquerading as a flight simulator.
@@rbarlow Oh its extremely unpopular, yet the true facts bare themselves plainly. And because of how unpopular the true facts are, unless some other company, that is in favor of aviation, rivals MSFS, I truly believe real aviation is going to be much worse off. Pilot and ATC shortage and quality will be the least of the problems. But they will have their screenshots, so they will be happy. It is amazing how consumers/pilots/very intelligent people, on a such massive scale, are so easily fooled.
FRASCA is absolute sheet. Lots of experience with them.
I dont understand the need and desire to convert and expose as much as possible new ppl to something you enjoy. The ones who are interested enough will find a way just like you have. If not, so what? Also the certain someones are trying to ban drivin cars, so I really cant see flying for fun in real life becoming more common than it is now.
I disagree with your premise. Redbird has very good equipment for home simulation and I think they are very affordable.
His point is that there are much less inexpensive options that aren't FAA certified that blow redbird out of the water with quality. Redbird's quality and technology just isn't very good nowadays. At my flight school we have one and everyone I know hates using it.
My point is that there are non-certified sims that can offer more value for the price and the time you can log in an approved ATD toward a private and instrument is minimal. If you use it to maintain instrument currency it may be worth the extra money but I’m not sure I’d want to get all my instrument currency in a fixed base sim. Obviously some people buy manufactured airplanes and others enjoy home building. Same for sims.
I visited Redbird and was also very disappointed. I asked what software they ran and they bs’ed me telling me it was a proprietary software. I checked one that was on the desktop screen and they were running Prepar3D.
Realsimgear had a good presence and the stuff they brought was well put together. I showed the girl at the booth a pic of my 4 year old in my home sim (Simionic G1000) and she was shocked that I put it together…. For about 1/3 of the $.
I hope you are being sarcastic. Their "jay" sim starts at $3,000 USD, Jay Velocity at $4.5k then TD at $8k. I would rather use a honeycomb alpha, honeycomb bravo, logitech rudder pedals, speakers, display(s), touch screen with air manager and a PC instead of red bird.
Interesting take, thanks.
Im a sim newbie, just retired from 42yrs in aero defence.
For me, it's about flying what I built as well as recreating the bases where dad flew on his path to RAF Bomber Command.