Tonex One - LATENCY ISSUES? The numbers, the problem, and the solution.
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- čas přidán 3. 05. 2024
- JON'S MAIN TONEX ONE REVIEW: • The new ToneX One - in...
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Latency. Is it an issue even in the slightest? Well... it depends. My original ToneX review is here:
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I am 57. Sometimes I think I am the one with latency.
Best to blame the pedals, I say
I am 69. Wait till you hear this!
I'm glad you also cover this Latency topic, it IS very important, of course 3-5ms of latency is still not relevant and having 1.5-2ms latency is a non issue for playing but it certainly is as you pointed out when using pedals in parallel or when using pedals on an FX loop with less than 100% wet mix, comb filtering will affect the tone dialed up in mono, anyway, regarding the extra latency when connected via USB: Is that roundtrip latency by using the pedal as interface and then hearing the capture back as we would do using another interface?, I'd like to see how it compares to other popular interfaces by playing captures when using it as audio interface
I didn't imagine it would be used in an effects loop at less than 100% but I guess nothing is impossible! I'm not sure how Leo got to the figures on the USB/interface latency increase - I would imagine he measure it in the same way that he measured the in-out latency - just with the pedal connected by USB. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Really interesting information, nice video!
Glad it was interesting! Thanks for being here
Great video again :) Thanks for addressing this. Would be great if they could make it fixed.
I'm experimenting with it now. Fingers crossed!
@@JonWrightMusicTV As in: you are experimenting with a fixed latency?
Thanks I just searched this after getting a Tonex one and Full size Tonex. I found some Captures that work well together in stereo and then checked the phase on Logic Pro by recording something with one L and one R. I did it again with reverbs and delay off to make sure reverb and delays on the Big Sky and Timeline were not causing an issue. My conclusion is the phase isn't all of the way out (depending on the capture you choose) but the wave forms don't line up exact. It is noticeable listening if I line them up then undo the small drag I did on one track while it is playing back. Its almost like a double track effect and gives a small amount of a stereo spread. I will play with them next weekend and see if it bothers me. As of now I am okay with it.
Also that was panned hard left and right. If I bring them in a little even just to -50 and +50, you almost can't here it. So in a large room with a full band, I imagine it will not be an issue.
Phase issues DRIVE ME CRAZY!!! I really enjoy splitting my guitar signal into 2 different amp sim pedals simultaneously while tracking/recording them to 2 separate tracks, and unfortunately, one of the signals always lags a tiny bit more than the other. If i pan them hard left and right, it sounds fine, but I tend to treat the 2 tracks as you would 2 mics on a speaker cab while mixing. In other words, I like to pan the 2 captures/tracks on top of one another as one unit. If I'm panning 50% right id' like to be able to pan them both 50% right. At that point, the phase issues are back with a vengance. I know they can be lined up in the daw by zooming in, but I've had no success trying to do this manually. Even if i were to record 2 separate performances with the same two amp sim pedals, the difference in processing time between the 2 units would remain the same, so either way i HAVE TO get these suckers to line up in the DAW. Sound Radix Auto-Align 2 is a possible solution, I think. Eventually, I'll probably bite the bullet and pay 200 bucks for it.
You'll already know all about what I'm talking about here then. You're completely correct and I share your thoughts! czcams.com/video/otUI1iJybac/video.htmlsi=ry0ObxoL2BORhIEs
When Bi-amping, meaning two different amps or models that are combined together, each model can have different frequency phase response. So even with consistent latency, phase issues can still come up as you change models. One solution is to not combine and rather output one panned full right and the other fully panned left.
Bi Amping? Can the Tonex one do one amp left and one amp right?
What do you mean by 'different frequency phase response'? Are you saying that on one model, a part of the frequency spectrum might be to some extent out of phase with another part?
@@JonWrightMusicTV yeah, look up Bode plot for low, high, and band pass filters. The lower graph on each shows the phase change per frequency (0, 45, and 90 degree phase change). The amp’s preamp tone stack (bass, mid, treble controls) are essentially a mix of high, low, and band pass filters. Each amp design varies in its tone stack design, so each amp design has its own frequency phase response (its phase variance over its frequency range). An authentic amp capture should get the amp’s phase response as it can affect how it interacts with other effects, reverb, and the room. We don’t hear phase differences unless we combine with the unaffected signal resulting in a comb filter effect. When mixing two amps, their frequency phase responses will differ and will result in frequency notches, even without any delay/latency differences. BTW, great channel, love your stuff and the content you present. Your videos are always well made and so informative to things I’m interested in. Please keep them coming.
Yeah, look up Bode plots for low, high and band pass filters. It shows the phase change (lower plot) over the frequency range. An amp’s tone stack (bass, mid, treble controls) are a mix of low, high and band pass filters. Each amp design can differ in its tone stack, and will thus have different frequency phase response. So even without any delay difference, two amps can have their phase vary in different ways over their frequency range.
Things like this always made me go the Andy Timmons way: Mono preamp, stereo fx, stereo power amp. Honestly IK should make a proper dual engines in sync ToneX for stereo applications. Waiting my ToneX one from pre-sale.
Yeah it's a good way to go! Proper full-stereo ToneX will be just amazing for some people - but I suspect not as popular in terms of sales so maybe down the list of priorities for IK - I'm not sure. Hope it arrives in good time...
mine will be arriving either later this week or early next week
Woo! Hope you're getting on alright with it!
@@JonWrightMusicTV Its not arrived yet. 🤣🤣
The default verb is the room which is crap. Change it to the plate and it's perfect. I will have an amp package coming with all my settings baked in. Which shows you how I set it up if you are inquisitive and you like my sounds. Otherwise just enjoy the tones. Oh and still no delay but I get around that too. They NEED to ad a delay though. Clearly they aren't guitar players. ??
Right? I really like the plate. Although for just a smidge of 'in the room' they pretty much all work... Cheers!
This is a very interesting subject for us weirdos from the parallel multi-channel-verse. Sometimes ten milliseconds is a lightyear or at least 12 Parsecs. We have been avoiding total digitation of the precious guitar signal for generations now. It's the reason we place Analog Dry Path in such high regard with our fancy digital delay and reverb pedals. All my amp models are analog FET pedals, this little gem will add two more changeable options in my looper.
12 Parsecs :-) Hopefully you find the video I just posted interesting too - if you're using parallel paths it might be a deal breaker
@@JonWrightMusicTV Not if I use it before the main split. My rig is unlike any other. I need a rack mixer to mix it before it goes to the tubes.
"Sometimes ten milliseconds is a lightyear or at least 12 Parsecs." Hmmm, 1 Parsec is 3.26 Lightyears so this sentence does not make much sense.
I appreciate the company not underselling their latency if anything.
Same here. I was really surprised when I heard the ToneX One was 1.5ms - then measured even lower...
what's a tonex?
See my other videos
I heard that you should use 2 tonex ones -or 2 tonex pedals together or you could experience some comb filtering effect. If you’re running stereo. IOW, don’t mix your different tonex pedals.
You could and I've just published a video about exactly this: czcams.com/video/otUI1iJybac/video.htmlsi=ry0ObxoL2BORhIEs
@@JonWrightMusicTV It says your video is private
@@carpediem4413 try this: czcams.com/video/3wmbkDtXg88/video.html
Im sorry but 10ms is VERY noticeable. 20-30 is straight up unuseable.
Wow! Must be unpleasant to do gigs using digital rigs and digital wireless, or play on large stages.
This. I can't believe there are people who can play with 20 ms of latency… the limit for me is 10-12.
Airspead velocity for Sound is about 350m/s so standing 1m way from the map is about 3ms Delay, or 3m is about 10ms. Of courses there will be accumulated Delay from wires and what not.
If you have a 3m+ long Wire, you could test how much ~10 ms effects you .
I personally can't tell, but we are all different^^
A 0.1 ms difference is the same as you'll get with one speaker being 1 inch further away!!! So, any dual-speaker set up (stereo, dual mono, wet-dry) is already going to have way, way more mismatch in delay than what might happen with parallel ToneX. For example, just turning your head will cause more mismatch! So in my opinion you're really exaggerating the issue.
(And if you're worried about recordings, then you can simply line it up in the DAW to compensate.)
Overall, compared to every other modeling setup (including their own bigger format unit), the ToneX One has one of the best and most consistent latencies.
The only legit criticism of the ToneX One is that it isn't true bypass, but if that matters, just use an external bypass switch.
By the way, the reason connecting USB adds latency is that the processor needs to process that interface, so that will slow down the audio signal processing (even if not much is happening on the USB interface the processor has to spend some time "listening").
You're sort of conflating stereo and phase. While a mismatch in delay of 0.1ms is not particularly consequential when each signal goes to a SEPARATE speaker (and you're listening to those speakers in the room), if they're going to the same speaker - for example a PA speaker, or on a record, that phase relationship between them is important and affects sound. If it continuously varies you've no control over this.
So it's not exaggerating - it's something to bear in mind if you're using two in parallel.
The low/consistent latency hasn't really been an issue before because people haven't really been buying a pair of Quad Cortexes. But people are going to do that with this so it has become relevant. Kemper, by the way, has an option to lock the latency precisely because variable latency-induced phase issues are a real thing.
latency matters a lot if you use in ears when playing live, believe me
Could you say more about why this is so important?
@@JonWrightMusicTV because with wireless units, lantecy tends to acumulate. And the more you add, the worse it gets, its like playing harder not in terms of skill, but feel. feels like I´m dragging on purpose without wanting to. I experienced this first when I replaced my Zoom G5 for a Boss GT-100. The feel was different right from the start.
Latency..?? In a Distortion pedal..?? Really?
What's your confusion/disbelief?
Some people say 3-5 ms not really an issue. ?? Wah? 2ms bugs me....I can notice 1.5 ms if you a/b. 3-5 ms is time used for pitch / chorusing. cmon.......
You realise 2ms = two feet. So being 2ft from an amp speaker is an annoying amount of latency for you and you can tell it’s there? Ladies and gentlemen Spider-Man is in the building
In other words, 99% of players will never notice. Cool!
It's CZcams baby - the place for niche discussions
100%
Although, I had a famous musician request near field monitors in the control room because he couldn't play in time enough with the main speakers?
12ms is all ready to much....
Where are you getting 12ms?
@@JonWrightMusicTV maybe i overheard...4-5 ms is acceptable for playing.