1873 The Contra Rotating Wind Turbine
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
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I used to do shopfitting for a large electrical shop chain. I remember having to move the Dyson washing machines around. They were just about twice as heavy as any other washing machine we moved. I was told by people who had used them they suffered from massive vibration so needed so much more weight to stop them dancing about. I think your experiment showed that vibration. I can't believe myself as I used to lift them onto a plinth on my own. I suspect now I am very lucky to still have my back intact.
I read shop lifting 😂
@@dajoro-iq4lq me too. 😆
@@dajoro-iq4lq Same!
BTW, Didn't The Smiths have a song Shopfitters of the World Unite?
I'm just really impressed with that little flat plate with a black feathers
cool - cheers mate
@@ThinkingandTinkering the thing that concerns me is not the number of moving parts, but how frequently they move. I was wondering whether the wheel of feathers might be held stationary and used to capture wind, from whatever direction, and redirect it downward over a turbine.
Any man who uses a thumbnail of a Fairey Gannet to explain contra rotation has my full attention. Intriguing. Cheers!
Thank you for sharing your ideas. Now it remains to prove that the site and the design favor the achievement of the planned results. Saludos desde México
You basically doubled the speed of the magnetic field and as such increased the output voltage. Neat trick. Nice
Your an inspiration for tinkerers around the world ! Might even solve the issues of the future just by your amazing view of everything. Thank you for everything.it’s a joy to watch and learn .
I wonder if this could be improved by having the magnets in the middle and putting the coils on the outside. Thanks for another cool video Robert! Cheers!
Yes. I was thinking make the magnet in center, as fixed point as well so it doesn't' wobble?
I got to leave another comment after watching this video as well! I'm impressed with the creative leaps you take with your projects. Thanks for all of the crazy inspiration! Also on an off topic from one of your recent videos about the learning curve on CAD software, Thats the same reason I got a couple awesome 3d printers collecting dust. I used LiDAR and learned about photogrammetry recently which seem to be interesting new ways to create detailed models for printing, just thought I'd throw that in there. All of your videos have had surprisingly applicable concepts lately 🤓🤯
Nice pic of a Fairy Gannet. I've been fascinated by these since I saw one slowly rotting into the ground at White Waltham airfield.
Haha I suggested doing that on that video 1868. I'm glad it worked. I'm am looking into getting a 3d printer for myself so I can try and tinker with your channel. Love it. cheers
Be interested in a watts comparison between the axial flux and the contra-rotating versions. The flicker in the latter may indicate periodic higher volts but due to the visible cogging could have a lower net output.
That's weird that you've been interested in the wash machines you need to get out of my head Robert lmao!👍👍👍
Love the attractive counter rotation version👍
Washer: how about some 1904 tech in the Dyson design and pitch the whole thing at an angle below center, install slinger rings on the concentric shafts so the leakage is directed to a catch all and use an Archimedes screw and pump the water back up to a drain plane that enters the drum at the top and dumped it back in. Then for the door area incorporate a drip loop design to guard against the splashes, are use a Tesla valvular conduit buffer to keep it from getting past the door, and have the door reaching far enough to cast off any splash back into the drum again.
The screw could take its power off of the drive line for the concentric counter rotation assembly... or if you want simpler and to use things made of things just throw a pump on the scavenge dish for the water that comes off of the water seepage slinger rings (or drip control rings if you will).
I was always a fan of an external centrifuge to get rid of excessive water, and again the screw pump could do a fine job if the Catch system is set up correctly, and I am thinking that a higher rpm can be obtained and the clothes could be much Dryer, this would cut down using a conventional dryers run time and energy usage.
But that's just a quick five minute thought.
I've been thinking about designs that are simple, buildable from salvage and super reliable as compared to some of these new units that are overly complicated. Water salvage recycle and conservation can always be added to the design. I used a wringer washer when experimented with external filtering for quite a while until the move forced me to get rid of the ringer washer machine, to this day I regret it, I got the clothes really clean, and the seal was maintained by a two piece rubber compression seal that a soft beeswax similar to a heavy grease to seal the shafts in the bottom, maintaining that machine was a simple 15 minute job that needed only to be done yearly, with more or less a model A automobile wrench and a screwdriver, or the US denomination of a $.25 piece
with the flashing lights this could be a very spooky halloween trick
Awesome find
Fantastic video full of wonderful information. Thank you for teaching me new skills
Your innovation is truly inspirational. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
That was cool.
The contra rotation generates more electricity because you have two things going on.
1) The obvious, you have more magnets.
2) The not so obvious. As the same poles pass each other, the magnetic flux is increased by virtue of the same poles opposing each other and increasing and decreasing the magnetic pressure as they approach and pass one another.
I seen a video regarding Tesla's new electric motor.
They changed the windings so that it has a pointed
top rather than a typical rounded top.
Rather than winding a coil as is done with the serpentine coil, each part of the winding is a separate element and they have to be all soldered together. Basically, it would be like soldering a bunch of staples together after you separated them.
The look something like this.
/\
_| |_
The problem with the design is that the soldered joints have to be soldered just right or it reduces the efficiency of the motor.
If your coil had a 45 angle in it like the new Tesla motor, you could add two rows of magnets at a 45 degree angle to produce even more current.
I'm not suggesting you try and make one of these, however, I think that using your conductive ink or a conductive epoxy in place of the solder, would eliminate the need to be absolutely perfect with the connection.
Round is not scary.
Pointy is scary.
🤣
Good move! You had in effect doubled dB/dt but at the cost of some 'cogging' when your magnets try to lock into attraction positions.
Very cool Rob!
Like it a lot. Simple and effective.
2 ideas 💡
1. Put a fin and a swivel on the stator to catch more direct wind.
2. What about separating the magnets more and creating a wider stator?
2a. In addition, using some magnets around the perimeter (of the larger stator) in free tangental rotation, it could act as low frictional gears to assist the contra rotation and possibly increase power/efficiency.
Dear Robert, here is a request please. Instead of magnets on both drums, where basically you just double the magents (sort of), please consider this.
If speed of rotation is an important factor, then you are on the right track. Please keep magnets on the one drum, but put your snake coils onto the contra rotating drum (no magnets) . Then their speed difference between two drums should (I hope) be double the speed compared to a static snake coil plate?
How do you get electrical contacts for a load with this setup? If I understand correctly, the drum with the coils that you need to connect to is now rotating.
@@EvanVlcek slipring
@@davidcarnicom5635 Thanks for the reply. How well does a slip ring hold up over time? If there's mechanical friction you'll both lose efficiency as well as have additional maintenance on the turbine.
@@EvanVlcek Many many many car alternators use slip rings. Therefore they last for gazzilions of revolutions over many years.
Differencial gears to keep the turbines sychronised could help stabilise the voltage, because now, we see the lights are strong, than dimm, and off.
Im no expert but I think if you have a NN or SS it cancels out and that is why there is no generation. When you do have a NS then the induction time is much faster so higher voltage. Problem is that means you are only generating at a 3rd of capacity. So I think this design trades frequency for voltage.......
😂 "like a drunk clown on a high wire"
As soon as you said mag lock I knew it would not work, you are using one coil with magnets on each rotor, that cancel each other out over the same winding on opposite sides. The fluxes cancels each other out.
I see something ... that gets lifted up into the air by the wind and when it is at its peak of lift its design brings the lifting body / shaft back down on an angle that the wind does not affect. And in being lifted it pulls up a small weight through some gear work creating electricity as it does. and also when it falls back down.
Thank you :)
An array of those might benefit from having an elliptical shape, as opposed to their current circular shape. Two ellipses can rotate next to each other in opposite directions 90 degrees out of phase, maintaining a small gap continuously. This way the blades of one fan would occupy the gap left by the adjacent turbine. An array of such devices would have minimal gaps for air to leak through.
Great ideas Rob, I'm no expert but I see locking each turbine with a gear in-between to keep them at the perfect sink with each other to prevent locking
Thankyou!
It's effectively form of gearing & may allow the VAWT to perform better in even lower wind conditions - nice!
Re the washing machine, if one motor has two pulleys joined to the same shaft but one of the belts had a twist in it you could get contra-rotation at the same speed from a single motor.
The critical factors in this demonstration are voltage, current, gauss field strength, gauss field rotation, and frequency; the last having the biggest effect.
With two counter-rotating magnetic plates, the frequency increases resulting in a higher RMS voltage.
Makes sense, I suppose. Electrons in nature tend to exhibit a movement more similar to cotra-rotation than counterrotation. Great explanation as always. Cheers 👍
If you support the rotors at the outer ends in addition to the centre, you could still have the existing magnet/coil arrangement at each end, and for the mating faces, if you have magnets in one side and a coil in the other, with contrarotaing fans your relative rotational speed is doubled. You now have two coils at the ends plus one double speed at the centre = ....?
You can send royalties later...😁
I would love to see these scaled up and placed on the ground in the centre of all electric pylons on a raised concrete block, and have a system that will feed the power straight into the national grid infrastructure, It would be cheaper than building off shore and no more a blot on the landscape than it is now with the pylon net work already out there. I did surgery to the national grid, but they misunderstood me and said that the pylons were not built to tolerate that kind of weight, but like I said these would be placed in the centre on the ground of the pylons
Love your channel Keep up the good work 👍
If you placed the magnets spinning clockwise & the coils spinning counterclockwise, that would double the speed.
When the speed doubles across the coils and magnets, what percentage increase would the power output be Robert?
Awesome video & Idea!
You are a walking encyclopedia!
I watch your videos everyday!👍
Idea is nice but i see one small problem. It will complicate things because you will have to make a commutator. And Robert's idea is to make things simple enough to create them easily at home. But if someone is determined enough to make a commutator, then counterrotating magnets and coils is a great idea.
I brought up planetary gears in a comment a few videos ago, the term i didn't know was contra rotation. Your washer could be pretty easy if the top of both drums were geared and driven from a motor at the top in planetary manner between them. The outer drum could be just like a traditional washer for drainage etc but no extra holes for the shafts, just bearings.
Looking forward to see more contra rotating concepts ^_^
Counter rotation feather windmill next! 🪶
place them vertical side by side and place a diffuser in de. center so it will act as a shield for de blades moving against the wind, you can even place more 4, 6
Having a problem buying into your conclusion. Would like to see what happens if both sides turn the same direction rather than one driving one way with all the wind. Turn the second one around so it adds to the power generation.
Well, that answers my question of a couple of days ago. I must have missed this video.
So, today's question: have you looked at nesting one "magnet and coil on the rim" system inside another? This would be two serpentine coils with two sets of magnets (separated by an insulating layer between presumably) spinning in the gap between the coils. Twice as many coil/magnet interactions for the same number of rotations + more weight at the rim giving more momentum and a smoothing effect in light variable winds.
Very smart!!!❤
Those lights are flashing like crazy. I wonder if maybe it generates a similar amount of power on average as if they rotated the same direction, but just had higher spikes and lower troughs.
This....
I think not, because the speed of coil/magnets is twice as high this way ;-)
@@markgeurts258 Greater Speed means greater voltage, thats true. But with a conventional set up you will get generation from every magnet interaction with full wave rectification. With this method you will only generate voltage for 1 in 3 magnet interactions with FWR. So does the icreased interaction speed at least make up for the loss in frequency?? I'd hazard not. Best way to find out would be an experiment
Your design might be helped by the magnetic version of a "bevel" gear operating with an axis at right angles to your rotor axis. Located at your stator, it would operate like the airplane transmission you pictured at the beginning or a vehicle differential. Spacing might reduce the stator by a couple coils, but the bevel gear axle could drive a small generator too.
@RobertMurraySmith
Right.
Now get a couple of barrel fans from the internal wall mount fans from scrapped domestic heat pumps, slap a rollerblade wheel on the brushless 3 phase motors that they come with, set them up with three phase rectifiers, and put them between the baseplates on the face of the the barrel turbines.
As thrust bearings.
If you can get these inrunner motors spinning at 1000 rpm you'll get 100watts at 240 volts DC out of each of them.
They are rated at 6A coil ratings, and make 280Vac open circuit at 1000rpm. Per phase.
If your rollerblade wheel (replace the grease with epoxy) is 1 inch, and it's four inches from the central tension rod shaft, then it will be about 1 to 8 step up, so you only need ~120 rpm from your turbine.
And those barrel fans have more blade area, better aspect ratio, and over 2x the utilisation of the airflow, because of the the wind exiting the rear side than your turbine demonstrated here.
And won't suffer the balancing vibration issues from the variation in loads under rotation that that demo did.
No funky building of big heavy lowspeed high torque rim motors with expensive Magnets and coils required.
Perhaps ten quid of scrap value + diodes.
Repurposing is better than recycling, which is better than building it new.
😉
There was a video released that discussed using this method for offshore wind power generators, but with a twist. The offshore towers would be at a 45 degree angle, using a counter rotating technique that didn't have two sets of magnets, but one set of magnets and the other was the wiring where the electrical generation was taking place. The design used a sleeve technique to use the same shaft with the two differently rotating blades. What do you think of this modification to the idea?
I designed a contra-rotating washing machine back in 1994 when I was 11 years old.. 6 years later, I saw one on telly 😔
oc your axial flux magnetic field Is Contra Rotating on the coils & is better made so it is better canceling out the opposite flux... on the same magnetic locked axis.
but as I told Luke, his version won't work properly as his flux magnetic field 'at the center coil' is rotating left to right above & below hence a axial flux magnetic field is made, its amazing its not canceling out all the volts as it stands.
yours is in effect additively pulsing in resanance increasing generation, lukes is destructively pulsing out of resanance on the coil so canceling any/most generation.
I.e as pointed out, lukes isn't doing what he thinks it is.
Very interesting video! - just a thought or two:
The magnetic coupling may producing a much higher voltage at low RPM because the rotors snap quickly between the coupling positions. (like old ignition magnetos did at cranking speeds).
All that turbulence that the contra rotating washing machine generated, will be there and more, in the contra rotating turbines. I would expect less wattage then if they spun the same direction, even stacking Savonius turbines out of phase decreases output.
Listen to Dan, he's the man. CG
This setting has a lot more to explore. Instead of N S pole switching, it becomes attract repul switching. Also, may try to fixate the coil to one turbine. This increases related rotating speed.
Brilliant
Hi Rob, two things here,open up the ends of the of the blades so the air can flow freely in any direction yo have an omnidirectional turbine where the wind will turn it from any direction. It can be mounted horizontally on the top of a roof making for a much easier installation. Second thought, a serpentine configuration is like moving a wire through a magnetic field like a horseshoe magnet. Can one put one pole on the rotating disk south south south and another on the stationary disk, north north north. Without having given this much thought, you ought to generate a DC voltage. The wire will move through an endless north south magnetic field?
How do your clothes not get ripped to shreds?
How about magnets on one turbine and coils on the other, doubling the rotation speed
design trade off, to do that you will need slip rings to make the electrical contacts... more complex and introduces more friction
@@RoadRashSpirit Slip rings with carbon brushes have very little friction, but more expense, Also, some motorcycles use them on the internal generator/alternator.
@@hardergamerif you're trying to harvest 6mph winds that friction will make alot of difference. It also adds a maintenance task. I'm very glad all modern motorcycles use standard 3ph stators and reg recs. Points and magnetos ext are all very clever but just added complexity waiting to go wrong. Each to there own ey.
@@RoadRashSpirit or you can make a 1:1 transformer and have zero added friction. PCB’s with spiral coils would work
@@geauxracerx so you want a transformer spinning around at a rate of knots?... Also transformers share the same core normally. Not sure I follow what your trying to suggest.
If you mounted the magnets on the fixed center hub and placed coils on each of the turning turbine rims you would not create a mag lock since there would be no compeating magnet sets. The electrical connection at the hubs would require more complexity but should be managable.
i'd be interested to see what kind of shenanigans altering the ratios could introduce
👍👍👍👍 thanks Robert
cheers mate
All you need is a big baring the ones where if you spin shaft one way it spins outs other way and little slower, then on spin dry lock them together and you have you one motor
Apparently both Bison and Dyson made washing machines maybe they still do, Dyson is the one who made the contrarotating machine, they make other appliances as well. . It looks like they would have tested them better before they put them on the market.
This could be a great use for the feather/flat turbine. I'd really like to see how that lights up the bulbs.
PS. Admire your inquisitive attitude!
Arr, 1873, a good year for Scotch whisky. Also, they use this system in underwater turbines.
Very interesting! I find the fact / result / conclusion here, that the counter-rotating rotors yield more energy than the co-rotating (axial-flux) mode somewhat counter-intuitive. 🤔 More tests please! I would be especially interested in seeing tests of the counter- vs. co-rotation modes with the flat folding-vane turbine from your videos 1864 & 1865. That might also require some thinking & tinkering regarding the effect of gravity on the vanes... An interesting challenge, perhaps?
I am not sure if there is much benefit here. There are times in the rotation where the magnetic fields will be helping each other voltage-wise and other times where they will be in opposition. I think the only way to keep things in sync to always be assisting each other would be to go back to complicating it with gears to time them together again. It may be possible that driving contra-rotating drums would work, though I think then you would still need a way of starting them in different directions before the timed pulses to the coil would be effective in keeping them going in different directions. The same idea in your demo with a motor you did recently where you were pulsing the coils manually, and the direction it would turn was random.
That's awesome but as a wind turbine that maglocking you'd need some strong winds what if you add a second coil in The middle to cut down the maglocking increasing the voltage and turn it vertical with like 3 center mount brackets to stabilize it
I'd like to see it in action with the lights on,seems like it has some pretty strong cogging. I'm skeptical the fan can do it on it's own. I'm sure there will be a follow up video! Cheers!
Great video as always. Question: What would the output be if you used the serpent wiring in video 1870? (knowing you'd have to reprint the bottom half for magnet layout)
Someone either needs two half wave rectifier 90 degrees out from each other in that circuit or plans for a quick trip to the nervous hospital.
And the gyroscopic effect means it is better balanced as the stress cancel each other out. I postulate.
Have you looked at Maximum Power Point tracking? The savonius rotors are really effected by RPM vs wind speed.
Sounds like keeping things simple isn't always the answer Rob. A few videos back, you stressed the importance of the KISS principle and I agree ,but you were a bit dismissive when presented with the fact that as you improve a design, it will get more complex. Stay humble my friend, it is a great quality. If you get those bearings aligned and balanced, I imagine that contra rotating turbine will be incredible. Looking forward to it, cheers.
Absolutely love your very informative videos Robert, you are an inspiration to all us tinkerers. I have a question for you, and would value your thoughts on the many videos and other information given on the Net regarding using Mercury to generate Electricity, fact or fiction or perhaps click bait? Keep up your great work and many thanks again.
One suggestion , why not use the reverse of the collapsing fan blades as described in post 1865 on the opposing end , just an idea 🥰
I'm thinking of a wind powered wimshurst 😅
Wow alot of commenters did not comprehend this, or only watched a short snippet of your video, either way miscomprehension is something all inventors struggle to overcome - Just like Joe Newman !
Dyson has only patented a million ways to make the most noise just by moving air.
A counter-rotating generator will work at very low rpm (100-30 rpm), being a perfect match to a much bigger savonius rotor made from oil drums!
Quite often good results can be obtained by trying different "silly" things which often get left behind.
Thinking of driving at the rim, what if you added a single gear at the rim between the two turbines? one gear that connects them would drive them at the rim in opposite directions creating that cotra-rotation and keeping the magnets from locking up. Just a thought.
Have you considered having the coils on one turbine and the magnets on the other?
Was checking to see if anyone else made this recommendation...This should almost double the differential speed between the serpentine coil and magnets
Or a box/shroud sat in front with louvers to direct the air on the right side down, and on the left side up, like the Darwin turbine had? Would allow for the axle to be stiffened up as well
Would be modular then as well actually....
To add to the simplicity, what about simply having the coil connected to the counter rotating additional fan?
On one hand I think you could do a washing machine in the matter of your speaking of using gears. On the other hand you should be able to do it the same way the motor on a lathe runs where I spindle from another motor goes through the center of a motor. Have a wonderful evening.
1) Did you measure the volts the two methods produced?
When magnetically locked, wouldn’t the coils always have N on one side and S on the opposite? Reducing the efficiency?
When contra rotating, the positioning would be random. Could that be the reason for the flickering lights.
2) The contra rotating mechanism you showed was two propellers powered by one motor keeping everything synchronized.
Your turbines were contra rotating, probably at different rpm’s. It seems to me the magnetic alignments would be constantly changing, NN, SS, NS, SN, causing erratic electrical results.
3) What happens when you apply electricity to the coils? Will the turbines rotate in opposite or similar directions?
4) Currently your turbines have the magnets in a pattern of NSNSNSNS around the perimeter of the turbine.
What happens if the magnets were all N on one turbine and all S on the other? Or, all N on both? On a single turbine, or two synced turbines you would probably get nothing. But, on a contra rotating system?
Could you try a two propeller design, magnets one side and the coils on the other?
Idea! Now add additional sets of magnets and coils to the out side edges, and add end supports. How much more energy is produced then?
More magnets/coils increases resistance which increases the torque requirement to get the rotor spinning consistently. That's why the objective is to get as much speed and AC to one coil.
Can you get rid of the maglock by flipping and rewiring your coils 90⁰, in effect elongating the coils in the horizontal plane,separating and distancing the magnets from each other, but retaining their influence on the shared coil? A east-west zigzag in threading a serpentine coil may achieve a similar result.
Does the contra-rotation all together remove the need to flip every alternating magnet, to achieve a DC output and removing the need of rectifiers, or would this rely on a synchronous speed of rotation on the separate barrels?
One clockwise rotating savonius on top, with magnets(stator) on the rim in its base, mounted on a central vertical hollow shaft.
Next, a stationary plate with vertically elongated coils(rotator), fixed to the same shaft, with connected wiring passing through that shaft and down.
Next, an anti-clockwise rotating savonius, with magnets on the rim, on both the top and bottom.
Next, a second stationary plate with vertically elongated coils(rotator), fixed to the same shaft, with connected wiring passed through that shaft and down.
And finally, one more clockwise rotating savonius on the bottom, with magnets(stator) on the rim at its top, mounted on the central vertical hollow shaft.
The central vertical hollow shaft would now end in a weighted base.
Mounted on bearings connected to the fixed plates, the turbines would have smaller diameter flanges at the top than at the bottom. This would allow for terraced stability and weather protection, when in conjunction with downward tapering lips.
That is really awesome mate. I wonder After balancing it better. Is the contrarotating turbines output like when you double the wind speed because 2 turbines travelling at speed in opposite directions is it the same as 1 turbine the size of both travelling at twice the speed. you don't double the output but get much more much more?
🤔Really, there are so many possibilities, I don't know which way to turn !
I solid shaft that goes full through bother blades would allow for two pin points and a much cleaner spin. Any particular design reason you chose a single mount point?
I was just pondering this last night when I was trying to fall asleep.
It seems to me it might be profitable to try to contra rotate your magnets And your coils- thus doubling your relative speed.
I don't know if that would get you more generation than contra rotating magnets on a stationary coil, but I think it's probably worth investigating.
(I appreciate that's trickier. And the two sets of contra rotating magnets may achieve the same thing, more easily. I'm sure somebody with better maths than I could work that out faster than one could build it)
Hey I'm just about to watch this video but I got on here to actually mention an idea that you should look into that will go right along with that magnetic flywheel of yours. You should look into magnetic induction heating. 🤔it seems like a length of copper tube closely fixed near the magnets as they spin and the water inside the copper tube gets hot and even boils.
Shouldn’t the shed air from the front generator be used to contra rotate the rear for the effect you are looking for as thats how the propellers work wash from front onto rear ?
Just a thought what if you put the magnets on one side and the coils on the other end contra rotating you would get more speed and thus (probably a higher voltage)
Interesting I wonder what the output looks like on a graphical meter.
betterer and betterer
cheers mate
I would like to see them stacked vertically, but the Savonioseseses (sp 🤣) seperated and gear driving a larger magnet plate over a larger coil. Geared properly, in synchrony, I believe a vertical orientation could be more beneficial to a practical application. Just ideas.
Would a contrarotateing washer that is top load style NoT be as effective? I think that is the case, but if its non the case then a top load setup would be soooo much easier to solve the leaking issue!