DOES A SMALLER LS CAM MAKE MORE TORQUE THAN A BIGGER LS CAM? AFR LS3 CAM TEST-STAGE 1 vs 2 vs 3!
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2022
- MILD LS CAMS MAKE MORE TORQUE, RIGHT? WHICH CAM MAKES MORE TORQUE, STAGE 1, STAGE 2 OR STAGE 3? CAN THEY REALLY MAKE THE SAME TORQUE CURVE? HOW MUCH MORE POWER IS A STAGE 2 OR 3 CAM WORTH OVER THE SMALLER STAGE 1? HOW MUCH POWER IS A CAM UPGRADE WORTH ON AN LS3? ARE THE AFR LS3 CAMS ANY GOOD? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I TESTED THE AFR LS CAMS (STAGES 1-3) ON AN LS3 CRATE MOTOR EQUIPPED WITH AFR LS3 HEADS. I ALSO TESTED THREE OTHER CAMS (SIMILAR SPECS) ON A DIFFERENT LS3 WITH THE STOCK HEADS. DO THE SMALLER CAMS MAKE MORE TORQUE?
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Most important thing, IMO, when selecting a cam is to be honest with yourself about how you use your vehicle. For a daily driven manual trans car, losing 50 lbs-ft of torque at 1500-2000 rpm can make the car much less enjoyable to drive. If you've got a stock converter automatic, you can afford to lose below 2000 rpm without much penalty. If you just use your car on weekends for play, then its a lot easier to tolerate dropping low end torque, simply by driving a gear lower, or putting a looser converter in. Unfortunately many people have trouble being honest with themselves (or just don't know what they want) until after they make the wrong choice.
I have a manual c7 corvette and just installed a 235/247 cam paired with a bigger YSI blower(1200hp) made 850whp on dyno with low boost and drives around on the low end pretty great. A tiny bit of cam surge at very low rpms. Again though to your point if they are that picky leave your car stock lol
alot of guys dont factor in the dyno factor into their decision a big cam that makes 580hp sounds good compared to stock 430ls3 but in reality only a 50 hp gain
Don't cam it the OEM camshaft delivers exactly what you want very low end torque
2000rpm...nobody cares. 3000rpm and up is what matters. In a M6 just drop a gear and your in the sweet spot.
@@bill2178 what are talking about my cam made 60+ plus from my cam swap and another 30hp from aftermarket heads. Big cam is king.
Where I got mixed up choosing a cam was the fact that I was building a street motor for daily driving!! Most of the internet advice was in regards to a racing engine! Huge difference! People will tell you that some of the bigger cams are streetable, but there is a big difference in something you drive every day and something you COULD run through town on a nice Saturday. I went with small port heads and what I thought was a conservative cam for this reason. I actually asked Richard what he thought of my cam choice and he recommended a much smaller cam for the street. An actual street motor requires different tactics to end up with a responsive and powerful engine!!
This is where my build plan ended up. I'm trying to build a 489 BBC that feels like it came from the factory. EFI and catalytic converters to pass emissions. Stable idle. I want to be able to drive this thing daily without worrying about power and braking in parking lots but also want to make around 500 hp. Ended up with smaller aluminum heads and smaller cam. Estimated 505 hp on a calculator running 91 octane.
Edit: a lot of guys (especially younger) don't understand that there is such a thing as too much hp. If there wasn't, all of the top end super cars would be running 2000+hp. I don't want to worry that I'm going to throw this thing into a ditch every time I hit the fun pedal.
Okay, the entry music is growing on me.... Always love all the details Richard... thanks as always....
The loss of low end power with the larger cams will be more of an issue with smaller engines like the 4.8 or 5.3
If I was in this situation. I'd still want the smaller cam. But that's because I always use everything as a street vehicle. If I was looking for a dedicated setup for racing only then I'd consider a large cam, but that's it.
That’s why I went with a 2
Pretty impressive. This was unheard of years ago with the older engines like SBC and all the others. AFR especially did a great job with their cams with their heads
Edelbrock castings ftw. Now cast in China.
Thanks for the run down have a great week Richard
When choosing a camshaft for my Ls3 for daily driving was anything below 3000rpm I didn't care about losing power!
because id be doing the speed limit on a registered road and didn't really need to go fast.
4500 rpm onwards is where I personally feel the most tourqe and horsepower from my engine.
In conclusion "who cares about power loss below 3000rpm I got a sports car not a truck that tows things for work"
Cheers Richard!
Agree..I run the biggest cam I can fit! I'm switching mine up again in two years going a bit bigger on exhaust side to better match my TSP PRC heads.
@@dailydrivenmuscle. Texas speed heads ?
I was watching texas speed get 9s pass from a heads and cam package with stock bottom end the other day. 😁
I also seen a 8s second pass blow up a conrod out of the block of an ls3 so just watch how much you push her!
Exactly why I chose the ls hot cam. It isn't a massive cam. Had decent gains but drivability is like stock. I don't care about 15hp up top to lose all the drivability below 3k
WOT tq V's low throttle(higher intake vacuum) tq/driveability/transient response/economy are very different things. But yes, big cam does not mean less TQ.
Great testing 👍👍
AFR is killin it in the cylinder head game....
I'd love to see the dyno charts from idle to redline. Most of the time, low rpm power is what I will be using. Peak power only matters when you're getting after it, and if you're not building a track car, that is going to be a small percentage of the time.
YOU AT IDLE SPEED AND WOT MUCH?
@@richardholdener1727if a CAM makes less torque under 3000rpm at WOT, won’t it make less torque under 3000rpm at part throttle too?
@@mwahlert lol you know the answer to that 💀💀
Haven't watched the video yet. Back in the 90's V8 Supercars Oz were doing a spec Cam for the lites series, I told the bloke doing the testing his smaller cam wouldn't make more torque, just shift it lower in the curve, he was happy to prove me wrong. That's going backwards from optimised race cams though.
That’s great and all but what does the torque and power look like from off-idle to 3200 rpm’s? That is way more relevant for most driving, not peak Tq and Hp.
Thought the same
Exactly what I want to know.
So many things are spun with the idea of 'streetable'; I don't mind a bit of loping idle, but ...
I want a muscle car for idle to say 3500 rpm torque.
I've driven and loved rotaries, those are so smooth all the way up to 9000 rpm plus and you can feel a well cared for one LOVE spinning above 5k.
It is the same problem I have with suggestions of switching out the gears, I don't need 4.11 rear to feel fast, I also don't want to give up highway fuel economy.
I want to approach my street driven daily muscle car with big low end torque numbers, to hell with peak hp numbers.
I'm not trying to be a street racer, not going to a track regularly. I want what my 75 pontiac with a 400 gave me, it could accelerate around a 3 ton land yacht as quick as I needed or smoke the tire off of it and it might have hit 2100 rpm before the auto shifted, it was my late teens car in the 90s. I liked that better than a few of the others 70s cars I had the enjoyment of either owning or my father did with various small blocks in them like my 76 Nova fastback, his El Camino, or his bored 454 in a 70 Monte Carlo ...
Out of all of those, the low torque beast of a pontiac was the most enjoyable to drive anytime day or night. The Monte was the most powerful, but finicky.
So I have one of two goals ... I want to build a gen 4 trans am, either find a way to maximize low end torque in the LS1 from idle to 3k, or my money might be better spent/happier results with a 400/455 swap.
If your wanting torque idle to 3000rpm leave the stock cam in it even if you found something that made more torque at this rpm range it would be minimal Truck Norris cam would probably be you best bet but even this mild torque cam will lose toque slightly from idle to 2200rpm
With many of us running around in trucks, this is great information but I wish we could get a chart of the lower rpm. Let’s say 2000 rpm and up. Although we can see 400ft lb of torque by 3000 rpm so we can imagine the ramp up has to be close to 300ft lb of torque at 2500rpm
Considering my stock converter stalls at ~1600 (yes it’s going away), seeing what you’re making down low would be a benefit for the truck guys.
It's more about where you want the tq. Heavy 4x4 with marginal gear is gonna be better with more low end tq. A lighter hotrod with gear will like a cam that carries tq into the higher rpm range.
I'm building a l92 thats been bored to 4.070 for my daily driven wrangler and trying to decide on a cam. With taller gears 4.56/4.88 which ones should I be looking at as I do tow a bit with it and would like to keep offroad ability but still have decent power. I was trying to squeeze 600hp or as close as I can out of it if possible. Your videos gave me a few ideas but I still can't decide since it's a swap that most people have a shop install a stock motor for, thanks in advance.
What centerlines where the camshafts installed at? Seems like the biggest difference between the three camshafts is the amount of overlap. Only about 1.5 degrees difference in the IVC if they're all installed with the same advance.
Richard , please , we want a dyno test of the lg g6x3 cam on a 6.0 or 6.2 ls engine , and if you could compare it with btr or tsp stage 4 cams that will be great.
I agree… this would be golden because I’m looking at ALL Stage 2 cams… LG G6x3, Elgin, BTR, and TSP
Hey Richard I'm not sure if you wantvto mention LSA in regards to torque as well. For example you could have 3 of the exact same camshaft specs with duration @50 and same lift on intake and exhaust but let's say the first cam has an LSA of 114 the second camshaft has an LSA of 110 and the third camshaft has a LSA of 106. Now the cam with 114 LSA would be the most civilized with decent idle quality and vacuum signal. However the camshaft with the LSA of 106 would generally make more low speed torque, and more of a Choppy idle.
I did an LSA video already
@@richardholdener1727 Torque rules on street.
My Personal Observation I Had On First Half Of Video:
The 1-3 Cams All Gradually Increased In Overlap Which Should Shift Where The "HP And TQ Humps"
The 1-3 Cams All Gradually Reduced In LSA Which Typically Increased Everywhere As You Approach The Optimal LSA For A Given Combination.
The Increased Overlap Didnt Really Shift The Curve Higher Up In The RPM Range However The Tighter LSAs Did For Thr Upper Portion Of The Cruves Increased Power.
I Exspected The Highest Stage Cam To Be Alot Further Up In RPM Than The Lowest Stage.
Second Half Of Video Personal Observations:
All Camshafts Had The Same LSA.
First And Second Cam Had Hardly A Change In Overlap So Was Mainly A Slight Difference From Lift. As I Exspected The 2 Cams Showed Hardly Any Change.
3rd Cam Had A Somehwhat Significant Increase In Overlap Compared To 1-2. This Did Shift Power Higher Up And Make More However Again It Didnt Shift It Muvh Higher Up In The RPM.
The Changes In The Second Half Of Video Showed Less Jumps In Stages Which Is Due To the LSA Remaining The Same.
These Are My Personal Notes.
Best video yet!!!!!
If your looking to increase low speed torque investing in a camshaft to do so is probably not your best choice now if you invest in a crankshaft with a longer stroke l think the results would be much better and if your using the same camshaft before the crankshaft swap depending on stroke being used it will lower your peak torque 700-1000 rpm lower this change will make a very noticeable difference in torque and when it will be accruing in the power band more so than a camshaft swap but by doing so it will be at redline 700-1000rpm lower also solve one problem create another
Dam these LS engines love MO CAMMMM!
I'm liking the 224 for my stock street engine, what would you run?
Intresting
This is only my opinion but if you took a LS3 engine changed the crankshaft with a 4.00 crankshaft making it 416 cubic inches installed a BTR Truck Norris camshaft with matching valve springs l think it would pull like a freight train at 2000rpm even with a stock torque converter and it would probably make great torque and decent horsepower from idle to 4500-4800rpm and pull like hell with peak torque happening at around 3200-3600rpm
Richard, something I have always wondered. Why do they list the duration at zero lift and then list it at .050? Wouldn't the total duration number be more important to how long the valve is being activated?
THEY NORMALY INCLUDE ADVERTISED AND .050 NUMBERS TO KEEP IT STANDARDIZED (TO ALLOW COMPARISONS)
I’d like to see the variation with changing overlap. The Truck Norris cam seems to show that a tighter LSA can really help. How ‘bout a new test, Richard!
the rec port heads have such good low lift flow tight lsa works differently compared to stock cathedral heads
@@bill2178 I believe more/better breathing (or smaller displacement with the same heads) generally means less overlap needed, but I’d still like to see the test results!
please see the rec port 6.0l truck cam video
@@richardholdener1727 I looked for that video, couldn’t find anything about tighter LSA cams on the LY6… Your truck cam video covered TN on the 5.3 but not the 6.0-at least the one I found. Have you run the Truck Norris cam in an LY6?
Ok a couple of things. Isn’t average torque more important than peak, with that being said I did notice the bigger cam did make the same torque up until higher rpms. And second wouldn’t (with the right set up of course) cathedral heads makes more torque than rectangle port heads due to velocity? If I’m wrong by all means tell me.
The cathedrals would feel better in the throttle up to about 3500rpm then the rec port starts gaining
👀👀👀👀... Damn Rich, now I need some heads🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️
Hey Dude, get the office unpacked and set up!
Still wanna see a big cam with the long runner manifold test. 277 intake and the Sky Ram would be interesting, the long runners crutch the low RPM for the big cam, the big cam crutches the high RPM for the long runner manifold.
actually that combo would be the worst of both worlds
@@richardholdener1727 your TPI test suggests otherwise, either way it would be interesting.
The sky ram kills power in the upper rpms. No amount of cam will make up for that. Maybe some like a big centrifugal supercharger could offset it a little but a cam will not. The cam can only work with the airflow it has.
As a percentage of TIME spent at an rpm, the time spent above the torque peak is near 0%. Probably 0.1%. The time spent below 4000 rpm is probably 95 to 98%.
Is the loss of vacuum, loss of economy "worth it" ?
My exact thoughts. And no, the loss in vacuum and economy is not worth it. Unless you are racing, it’s an absolute waste.
98% below 4000 rpm?
@@richardholdener1727 check my N/A 6.0 dyno vid on my channel. Its a doozy.
Yes. It is.
Even a mild Truck Norris cam will lose some slight torque until 2200rpm and it's designed to make torque any cam with more duration than stock is most likely not going to improve torque numbers from idle to 2200rpm and will perform better with a stall converter of at least 2500-2800rpm for a mild cam this stage 3 cam needs a 3500+ to take advantage of all the power
LSA blower BTR stg 2 cam 227/242 is my setup
Peak torque number doesn’t matter when you’re looking for torque. It’s how much higher the torque line is at lower rpm. Lower, meaning below 3500 rpm you started the graph at.
Eric- can you get a Mr Fusion- home energy reactor? I have heard they are a great conversion on Delorians.
who is Eric?
Richard Holdener - sorry. 😳
I get lisdexic sometimes…
Any plans to do the other new letter cams from Summit for the sbf?
yes
You did not show the horsepower and tq of the stage 3 cam on the stock headed LS3 you showed one and two but not three ?
When running these sorts of comparisons how come you don’t load the engines below 3000 on the dyno so we can see the full picture?
It would be interesting to see that data.
My ls3 puts out 25hp at 800 rpm and about 200 ft lbs of torque. At 2500 rpm its about 180 horses and 350 torque. It is stock. Car is 91 e30 BMW. 2700 lbs. More horses and torque than I'll ever use
Did anyone notice these 3 cams had 3 different lobe separation angles? The smallest cam had 115 the medium cam had 114 and the largest had 112. I think we all agree that a tighter LSA normally produces more torque. 2 years ago Richard did test on LSA A 402ci same lift and duration cams 3 different LSA 108-112-120 the 108 made more peak hp and more peak TQ .. in this torque test the small cam got the widest LSA which produces less torque and the largest cam got the tightest LSA which produces more torque. So by doing this you can make a large and small cam produce almost identical low and mid range TQ and make the larger cam with tighter LSA produce more higher rpm TQ and HP. ie LSA test 108-112-120 video . Go watch it please . It shows that 3 different LSA’s can’t be optimum for one specific combo. A while back BTR put a video out saying that LSA really doesn’t matter and thanks to Richard he has proved that completely false .. I’ve heard it said that the LSA is the most important spec of a cam to get correct and if you don’t like the rough idle chop a tight LSA produces you’ve probably chosen the wrong duration/overlap for your combo..Thanks Richard for all you do and BTW how’s that 2.2L coming can’t wait to see it on the dyno with a Vizard specced cam
Vizard isnt specing the cam for the 2.2
You didn’t mention the horsepower on the 231 cam on the motor with stock heads. Could you please post if you have it, thank you Richard
566 hp
@@richardholdener1727 thank you! Just trying to figure out a rough estimate of what the ported heads were worth on the first engine! Thank you for all you so
Do*
My problem with all of these dyno results is what you guys consider "low end". I just want to know what is going on in the 1000-2500 RPM range and the graphs are always cut off. I am building a 6.2 for my otherwise stock silverado to replace the 5.3 and want it to pull a boat, not run a drag strip.
your motor can never be run at 1000 rpm under load
@@richardholdener1727 your graphs here start in the high 2000's.
@@richardholdener1727 specifically, pulling a heavy boat up a ramp I would like to know where torque figures are. This information is seemingly unavailable, even the OEM's just advertise the peak HP and torque numbers.
Thousand horsepower Briggs & Stratton
How would the curve move with say a properly ported cathedral port head with less port volume?
SEE THE CATH VS REC PORT HEAD TEST VIDEO
@@richardholdener1727 Ahhh thanks, I forgot about that one.
It is strange that the LSA is wider on the smaller cams.
Something is off, how’s there zero trade off between stage 1 to 3 cams? I thought this was impossible? 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
If you look at the charts, they start near 3500 rpm. Usually is below that were you are going to see the losses/driveability issues with the larget cams.
The graph doesn't show the decrease in fuel mileage and increase in emissions of the hotter cam. Sadly they didn't start the test at 2000 RPMs which would have certainly showed a torque drop with a big cam
@@seektruth8662 I agree, comparing “Peak Torque” is irrelevant when your comparing street or drive ability. Yes a bigger cam will make more Peak Torque but it will be soft and less responsive in the rpm range most people drive.
The lsa's are all different. The small cam with the same 112 lsa the big cam has would make more torque in the 3-5k range.
You know a girl loves you when she says "It's okay to have a small cam, honey, the big ones just hurt anyway..."
LMAO
😂 OHH NOOOOO
I'm getting a 228/240 eps for my ls3
Everybody needs to experience the over cammed thing once in their life 🤣
I always said you can’t put a price on a radical cam.. You hit it right on the head. 👍
I did on a ls7. It sucked lol
Once you keep closing the LSA, it will make up for the extended duration losses than would normally occur at the lower rpms, and therefore maintains torque production at lower rpms. However, the extended duration degrees keeps the valves opened longer, per 4 cycle event, thereby facilitating power making in the higher rpms..Low speed mannerisms are affected by the LSA /ICL. due to overlap, exhaust dilution from reversion.. A complex process, with lots of critical variables..
I was hoping the cams would all have similar lsa's and icl's. Hard to compare torque potential when the small cam has a wide lsa.
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
LR4, Truck Norris
except for the 224 cam , bigger is better for ls engines all the way.
You have to be realistic with yourself about how you drive the car.
Get some seat time and tell yourself what you love about it.
-- Do you enjoy running tits out at 7400 RPM on a drag strip that you trailered the car to and made a $500 bet on? Get the biggest cam you can fit.
-- Do you like skipping a gear and doing a long pull from 3500 while your exhaust echoes like thunder off the freeway barrier? That crane 224 cam is the perfect thing.
-- Do you cruise, but have friends you play with on occasion? Get the 224 anyway, and keep a smaller diameter wheel/tire combo for playtime.
-- Do you like cruising the boulevard at 35 mph with the A/C on and blasting Foo Fighters? Leave it stock.
Without watching saying no...just moves up the curve with a bigger cam.
I want a stage billion
Still- ya gotta blame squirrels! 😎
Okay so the fact that the aftermarket cams still made more power EVEN down low makes it a no brain er. Which should also put to rest the driveability debate
Any of these cams used will probably not work good without a 3000rpm + stall converter otherwise throttle response would be terrible until 2500rpm and with that being said torque from idle to 2300rpm it will be slipping at part throttle so if torque at 2000rpm is your goal basically leave it alone even a Truck Norris cam would be more snappy and has better throttle response with a 2500-3000rpm stall converter than a stock converter if your needing or wanting big torque at 2000rpm you'll be needing a big cubic inch gas engine or diesel engine l think putting a cam in a 376 or 6.2 and looking for big torque numbers at 2000rpm is pretty much a waste of time from what I've seen in this test if peak torque is what your wanting use the biggest cam tested all cams tested on this combination made the same power basically 3000-5100rpm the biggest cam carries better 5100rpm up and torque doesn't drop off as quickly making your power band more broad or wider
Was this stock LS3 CR?
I think it’s 10.7:1
So a stage 3 cam can make almost as much as afrs and a stage 1…
Bigger cam!
My truck hits the redline at 3K, it’s probably a small cam lol!
Bigger cam is best cam. - Socrates probably
Should of started the dyno lower!
ALWAYS
Of course not
Anyone else notice the afr heads did basically nothing?
PORTED LS3 HEADS ON A STOCK LS3 ARE WORTH ABOUT 10 HP-ON A GOOD COMBO THEY ARE WORTH 60+ HP
@@richardholdener1727 STOP YELLING AT ME!!!
😁
@@richardholdener1727 did afr heads on a 6.2 ls3 make a difference than stock heads. What size was the heads
Personally I blame squirrels
efi systems do not like big cams on the street the factory ecu does not do well with lots of fresh air and o2 sensors it is very difficult to get decent mpg and drivability on the stage 2ish and up
Speaking strictly of GM stuff, it's not too big an issue provided you have good MAF sensor placement and properly tuned VE tables. Big monster throttle bodies tend to be more of an issue at low rpm than big cams do IMO.
@@ChurchAutoTest heard the same thing.. good tuner can make big cam drive well... oversized tb can be a bigger issue
So, if they run a dyno below 2600 does everyone die?
How about running it from zero to 7000 RPM instead of being lazy?
you run at WOT at 0 rpm a lot, do you?
Come on Richard we want to know how much TQ that starter motor makes 😂
So everyone always wants you to run the dyno at 2k and you proceed to never do it. We are begging you for a bottom end dyno session.
please supply a video where you run your motor at WOT at 2000 rpm on the street or track.
Biggest cam had over 420 ft lbs at 3200 rpm. Not enough for you small cam lovers?