What are Messiaen's Modes of Limited Transposition? - Music Theory
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- Learn about the seven modes of limited transposition used by Olivier Messiaen in his music. The difference between these and more common modes is explained, along with an explanation of how each mode has a particular number of possible transpositions. The patterns of intervals within each mode is unpacked along with an explanation of how Messiaen creates groups of notes within each mode. This music theory lesson then takes you through each mode and we explore which notes and intervals are used in each. A fascinating exploration for anyone wanting to understand more fully the melodic and harmonic basis of Messiaen’s music and a very helpful resource for composers wanting to explore this direction in your own music.
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🕘 Timestamps
0:00 - Introduction to Messiaen's Modes of Limited Transposition
3:15 - First mode (whole tone)
5:01 - Understanding the limited transposition
6:28 - Second mode (octatonic)
8:24 - Third mode
10:33 - Fourth mode
11:49 - Fifth mode
13:16 - Sixth mode
14:46 - Seventh mode
15:53 - Conclusion
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Messiaen is such a great composer. Turangalila Symphonie is amazing.
Completely agreed
I've been waiting for this one, thank you for the great content.
A pleasure
I discovered Messiaen randomly picking up a record because I liked the cover art and was so very pleased. Lately I found Vingt Regards Sur l'Enfant Jesus and am again reliving my passion and enchantment, his music inspired me to start drawing and also I transcribed some of his music for classical guitar. I only found one guy who has tried to play his music on guitar on You-Tube but it is amazing. Thanks for this talk he is my favourite composer.
An amazing composer
Fascinating! I never understood Messiaen's music. I want to go back and listen to it, now that I know what he's doing.
Go for it. It’s wonderful music.
Thank you Gareth for another interesting theory lesson.!!
A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk including details of our online courses and of our exciting Maestros programme. If you value this channel and would like to help us continue to share and develop the content please consider supporting us as a level 1 Maestro by clicking here czcams.com/channels/8yI8P7Zi3yYTsypera-IQg.htmljoin Alternatively you can express your support for the channel by clicking on the Super Thanks button beneath any of our videos. Thank you.
Hi Gareth , clearly explained as usual . It will be interesting to hear the harmonic possibilities these give . Composers seem to obsessed with organising - they think differently , perhaps more like architects . I think a combination of strict organising of notes and using our ears more, to hear what they are saying to us instinctively can work well . Thank you again for sharing your lessons .
Absolutely. Point well made.
Great class!! Thank you!!!
A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk including details of our online courses and of our exciting Maestros programme. If you value this channel and would like to help us continue to share and develop the content please consider supporting us as a level 1 Maestro by clicking here czcams.com/channels/8yI8P7Zi3yYTsypera-IQg.htmljoin Alternatively you can express your support for the channel by clicking on the Super Thanks button beneath any of our videos. Thank you.
Fabulous talk Messiaen ,Monk !
😀
Another gem! I can't wait do do some composing with these ideas. Fortunately a link to the sheet music is provided, as it is rather blurred in the video.
Enjoy!
I really enjoyed this. I had never heard of Messiaen (sorry) but I am definitely going to listen to some of his music and see if I can see what he is doing. Thankyou very much .
It’s wonderful music
Incredible video! Have you done a video on set theory yet?
See our video on Serialism
I sang a piece at a choir festival many years ago, and was interested to see the use of a scale where both F and B were "sharp", i.e. had a tendency to move up. I thought that it was inventive of the composer, but now suspect that they were just using Messian's 5th mode.
Could have been
Thanks!
A pleasure! Thank you very much for your generosity and support for the channel!
Hi Gareth,
If we think of modal music (those Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Lochrian modes used in jazz) - I think of Miles Davis and "Kind of Blue". He harmonised modes using chords of 4ths. The mode was apparent because of the root of the mode was in the bass. He also emphasised the characteristic note of each mode. My question is - what harmonies go with Messiaen's modes? In a standard western diatonic major scale we build chords using 1, 3, 5. if we dis that on Messiaen's modes of limited transposition we'd get some very odd sounds ? so - please, a video on Messiaen's harmony?
Sure. The harmony is also derived from the mode he is using. There’s no reference to conventional diatonic harmony.
Hi Gareth! This is a question for four part harmony writing. Can Ic V appear during the melody or does it have to be a cadence? Thank you so much and Music Matters is the best music channel I have ever seen!!!!
You can certainly use it during a phrase. Thanks for your support
I noticed you have no particular video on your channel about the modes in general! Would be a good idea for upcoming videos :)
We’ve got a general introduction to modes video.
@@MusicMattersGB Ah yeah, but that was rather short. I meant a bigger "general" overview, with more information about the flats and sharps that each mode 'wants' and why, the different feelings of the individual modes and these things! :)
@Voidermusic Fair enough
Thank's...i like
A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk including details of our online courses and of our exciting Maestros programme. If you value this channel and would like to help us continue to share and develop the content please consider supporting us as a level 1 Maestro by clicking here czcams.com/channels/8yI8P7Zi3yYTsypera-IQg.htmljoin Alternatively you can express your support for the channel by clicking on the Super Thanks button beneath any of our videos. Thank you.
Hello! First time catching one of your videos. I was scrolling to see what other topics I could find that you taught. I kept seeing your channel but I thought the guy in the title pic was a different guy so I kept looking and the more I saw “that guy” the more I thought it was funny that there was another guy with so many similarities to you. It finally hit me that it was actually you!! 😅 you look a lot healthier than 3 years ago!
Edit: now I’m confused, do you use pictures from different times of your life or is there actually another guy who looks just like you?
Yes, I’m the same guy! Intentional weight loss.
Is there a notion of functional harmony when using these modes? We'd probably need to consider chords VIII or IX for some of them, but still, can we define something like dominant chords, progressions, cadences in some meaningful (or at least not entirely arbitrary) way for these modes?
It’s not conventional functional harmony
Check out Messiaen`s "The Technique of My Musical Language". (English version available.) A real eye opener on his work. Contains everything you will need to know.
Absolutely right
The 2nd mode you describe is the diminished scale.
😀
Makes you wonder what was Messiaen's criteria for choosing the particular notes that make up each mode? Functionality? Aesthetics?
He genuinely found them beautiful and they enabled him to speak in his own musical language.
Interesting and thank you. I had worked out a few of these 'modes' for myself. Now I discover Messiaen had worked out a comprehensive set of modes (Now I wonder why I had not noticed - I shall listen out for this system in the future). I think some other composers had been doing this before. Aside from Debussy, I am thinking of Scriabin, Liszt and a few others.
The one aspect you might have emphasised a bit more is the 'democratic' nature of these modes, which prevent them settling into diatonic harmony.
Incidentally, shouldn't the chromatic scale also be a mode in this system? Or did Messiaen want to avoid this?
I think Messiaen was moving away from the chromatic and other conventional scales. His modes certainly offer lots of scope.
@@MusicMattersGB What I find is that these non-diatonic modes offer an ability to write melody that lacks a defined key whilst remaining melodic. I wish I had the ability to realise the musical composition though.
😀
Most of these modes are very familiar to jazzers like myself, but I think we use them more in improvisation rather than in composing songs, if such a distinction can be made. Improvisations can fly above the chord changes, I think, but to write a song you need to tie the melody to the underlying harmony, and this constraint makes it hard for both the songwriter and her audience to make sense of these modes. Comments invited.
Certainly with composition there is space to plan in greater detail.
Now armonize the scales and have fun whit this new world of sounds 😁
Enjoy!
Hi! Is there a video on how to harmonized messiaen modes please ?
No but we could make one.
I'd love to see that! It could also be a course on the site (on harmony in the 20th century, for example). I'd take it straight away! 😆
Apart from serialism, of course!
@corentinmusique Okay
@corentinmusique Ha ha. On that subject we do have a course!
It would help if the page on the right was readable.
Just checked. Looks perfectly legible. Maybe you’re reading it on too small a screen?
But what ARE these modes? I feel a bit dissatisfied that the answer is given in terms of just listing the modes, because I can feel the presence of a mathematical construction rule that dictates how you obtain these modes and that these modes are also the only possible modes following these rules. I suspect it is something like 12 is 12 x 1, 6 x 2, 4 x 3, 3 x 4, 2 x 6, 1 x 12. 12 x 1 is the chromatic scale. 6 x 2 leads to 1 new mode, the whole tone scale. Then at 4 x 3 I get a bit lost. I can see that 1 + 2 is 1 new mode and that this same mode also covers 2 + 1 because if you transpose the scale 1 semitones you’d get the same results with 1 + 2 that you would get if not transposing and doing 2 + 1 . But at that point I get stuck, because I think, why was 4 groups of just 2 notes skipped? E.g. if you take the notes C, Eb, F# , A , C and treat this as 4 groups of just 1 interval of 3 semitones? Was this skipped because it has too few notes in it to act as a scale or is it too trivial or…?
There’s a danger of looking for connections that were perhaps not intended. Each mode offers a different melodic and harmonic landscape.
@@MusicMattersGB maybe Messiaen didn’t intend to use all possible combinations. But it seems highly unlikely (since there are so few options of dividing the 12 semitones of an octave in equally sized intervals and each group must have the same interval in order to fit the same pattern of steps inside it) that he missed one. So I just wonder if there is any known reason why C,Eb,F#,C in 4 groups wasn’t used by him, at least not in the sense as “this is a mode”?
I don’t know of a known reason.
@@MusicMattersGB I played around with it this morning and then I realized that the 1ST+ 2ST 4 groups scale of course also contains these notes and some more while also having 4 groups, so maybe the thing that I was missing is that if there is a more fine grained scale with equal number of groups, it isn’t necessary to add the restricted version with less notes as a separate mode.
Excellent reflection
Interesting! It must be very challenging to analyse a piece of Messiaen! Did he use different modes in a same piece?
Sure! Yes he does in some pieces.
I thought it was a video about limited transportation and that it was somehow named after Messi.
Not quite!
What i struggle with is the applicability. Even Messiaen himself didnt use all of them much, mostly the second. Its one thing to do math on the distribution of notes in the chromatic scale, but to create beauty with the result is a different matter entirely. Maybe you could show by example how to use them. Without that, its just quirky theory….
Sure. That could be another video. He does create wonderful music with these modes. Well worth a listen.
Alan Holdsworth
😀
The point of the limited transpositions is that once you transpose it is very audible. This produces a sense of "progression" without there being any functional harmonic progression as we'd recognize it. So it is actually based in the ear and how we hear the music, not theorizing for the sake of theorizing.
@scronchman0146 Absolutely
Ravel-Messiaen-Debussy-Holdsworth
Go folks. Expand your horizont!
Absolutely
Hi, are you from the south?
I was born in London and lived in the south but I’ve been in the north for over 40 years.
@@MusicMattersGB Is yours considered a "posh accent"? Some of your pronunciation sounds Frippish.
Not particularly posh!
Completely off topic but I've just noticed an uncanny resemblance between you and Richard Dawkins
I don't really see it.
The debate continues…😀
@@richarddoan9172 I don't see it either
😀
As a mathematician I cannot agree with the choice of the adjective "limited" in this context. It's misleading, as traditional modes don't have unlimited transpositions either, so I think "reduced" would have been a better choice for Messiaen.
Limited in the very mathematical sense that there are only so many possible transpositions.
@@MusicMattersGB Which is true for traditional modes too. They also have a limited amount of transpositions, so traditional modes are also "modes of limited transposition", in a strictly mathematical sense. Messiaen's modes just have fewer.
Absolutely
@@alessandropizzotti932 no, regular modes and scales have the maximum number, 12 of possible transpositions. These, by comparison are limited.
You are being unecessarily pendantic.
😀
ah yes, Depousi and Messi'ah 😅
😀