the difference is only in that how anybody answers the last question on reality. There's a long chain of questions we ask to ourselves and then we create a divine substance or whatever. Accepting God, making choice of living or not, trying to live despite anything etc.
Positing gods existence would only offer meaning culturally or individually not objectively. Existentialism is trying to answer that question for yourself which is something we all must do.
@@TheMachiavellians no it’s definitely objective also no existentialism isn’t answering that question for yourself it’s just you using circular reasoning as if you’re somehow God yourself
As a long time student of Aristotle, Nietzsche and Rand this is like music to my ears. The world is what it is, there is no fundamental problem of perception or concepts (like so many claim) to open up the doors to holy revelation and/or arbitrary deductions. There is this world, and no world beyond. Values and morality are facts of human life and they pertain to human life here on this earth. Live well and prosper people!
Let's stay sharp on those problems of conception, nonfundimental though they be, with cognitive linguistics and general Semantics. I am convinced they are the way to the next level.
0:06. Leaving eternity to one side. What do you think Jack, can a theological believer live a meaningful life? Oh, I think they can Fred. For one thing its got to be a challenge to divide up your mind that way, I mean between a 'living here on earth' orientation and a 'heavens surely comming' orientation. Challenges like that, I suppose, can give your life meaning, even if I myself want to live my life with my mind all of one peice.
'I have no more meaning than a pebble on Jupiter.' I want to be important to the universe. I want to be acknowledged---cosmicly. Just being a part of nature with conciousness, and sharing an existence with that pebble, is not good enough.
@@TheMachiavellians The fantasy to be above nature and the world IS part of the schtick. Two other parts. 1) 'I have no more meaning than a pebble'--- that is said to other people. The motivation is control over people. 'You should feel like you have no more meaning than a pebble on Jupiter. God will give you meaning and, like Moses, I will lead you to him.' 2) It seems to me many theists knows a lot more about God than they have questions. The situation is ripe for pontification. 'I'm an expert on God.' Contradictory statements are ignored, the God concept being so protean.
You know I feel Nietzche blames nihilsm too much on christianity I mean its not hard to imagine an ideal a world that is better than this world even without Christianity, there was potentially nihilists even before the Hellenic area, like Heraclitus who was blackpilled because of the idea of the constant change in the universe and that nothing stays the same, so Christianity isnt the sole cause of nihilism, it can be due to disappointment of any kind. Also I find that his solutions arent any good either and feels like a cope to be honest, like what even is the "ubermensch", Fiction!
Christianity in Germany isn’t a big deal? You have to consider two things. One: which is the biggest spread of nihilism which even the writer of Faust brought up in that book. Two: the time, which even Arthur brought this up: it would be good to buy books if you could also buy the time to read them. Not quite unless you get jokes. His idea of the Uber is not quite to be taken literally. Taking it as a joke which he does a lot to more or less incite rage from people and so on because he doesn’t want to be worshiped. But however it isn’t a joke. He rightfully blames Christians for Christians are NOT Christians. They never followed Jesus, falsified his teachings and life for political gain. There is a video on why Nietzsche didn’t view Jesus as a hero and it explains why: the cult around him. Ou could explain Jesus as the Uber that Nietzsche mentioned. A man free of resentment, was not overly attached to people or the world and found meaning, he didn’t demand to spread it by force and didn’t seek political power which he was killed for political power for the power of politics at the time. His followers took his corpse after and his life and pretended to be all for his teachings but neglected the man who made them and who loved them.
That's a great question. Nietzsche rejected the metaphysical "true world" as you mentioned for several reasons. He wanted to affirm the world of the senses because he actually considered it to be "reality". This stable, eternal world of metaphysics is opposed to what we actually observe about reality. What we see is a world of becoming not being. The metaphysicians have made the real world into a fable and Nietzsche was trying to restore its epistemological status. Philosophers propensity to ignore the senses and trust reason without evidence is considered nihilistic because it is life denying. Nihilism is the act of denying life and/or depreciating existence. To the degree that the senses show becoming, passing away and change, they do not lie. - Nietzsche
You should go very far.I do not know who you are, but i understand that you have spent thousands of hours studying theology but mainly Nietzsche.I have studied Nietzsche intensely and i have analyzed him more than almost anyone.You are the only one, who not only understands and presents it perfectly, but also maybe studies it and embodies it more than even me.
I concur. I am tired of theologists who misrepresent Nietzsche, most likely intentionally. I have read 9 books of Nietzsche's and I do agree that Nietzsche is getting correctly represented here. I have also read and studied the Bible cover to cover and labeling it a nihilistic or ascetic philosophy pertaining to this existence we are all apart of seems to me a reasonable conclusion.
Meaning is understanding. The opposite of a nihilist is someone who thinks understanding is possible. I contend meaning is possible only if nature is natural and that supernaturalism is the nihilistic position.
What gives gemstones their value? Sure they are pretty to look at, yet some are more costly irrespective of their beauty. It is their rarity which brings great value and so to with life its temporal nature brings its greatest value. Eternity is true meaninglessness! Thank our lucky stars it is only a product of the mind coupled with sordid desire, a desire not properly vetted!
Great video because this statement that you choose to upload this video, which "there is no meaning in life without god" is in my opinion, if we took a Nietzschean stance were Peterson contradicts himself by criticizing communism, socialism and the progressive, because all of those mouvements are still made upon christian values and viewpoint meaning : salvation, emancipation, the ceasing of suffering, equality amongst all humans. Until Peterson adopts this christian framework, I am afraid for him, that the socialist mouvements that he criticized so much is bound to happen, again and again. What I am trying to say, that if we took a Nietzscehan view at all this, there is not a lot of difference between Peterson and the communism, it is like comparing water with ice. The question is why not hinge our value upon something else than ? Perhaps honor like in ancient Greece ? Or beauty in the 17th century of France ? or maybe alienation as the supreme value like in Ancient Egypts ?
That's right. In a Nietzschean perspective, Christianity, communism, socialism, liberalism or democracy are all the same fundamentally. All of these ideologies utilize a Christian moral framework. They just differ in how to achieve the desired state and how far it should be pursued. Beneath all of them is the assumption of equal value which derives from the Christian belief in equality before god. Once you see the connection it all makes sense doesn't it. Peterson has some really serious issues philosophically. I still have respect for the guy but I just feel that what he is doing will ultimately be self defeating like you said. His post-modern psychological interpretation of the bible might actually contribute to its demise because its so removed from the original context. Sadly people mistake ambiguity for profundity. Once the novelty wears off people will lose interest.
@@TheMachiavellianshe Christian moral framework is still very present in the western, perhaps even stronger than ever, and for me, Peterson is merely another symptom of this Christian moral sentiment. Particularly in the domain of art. For example, as a student in painting, a disciple, I call a real artist, a person who has practiced intensely and mimicked the great classics for at least 20 years. Almost nobody can be called an artist in their twenties. They are not ripe enough. Only in there 40’s, are there real painters or a man of culture, of taste. I am 23 years old, and I cannot consider myself an artist yet. But who thinks that way nowadays in art ? Everything is about emancipation, liberation of constraints ! Nobody wants there ego hurt, and listen to the masters of the past. Nobody wants to be a slave first in the domain of art. That to me is a consequence of Christian value moral framework in the domain of art.
The belief of Christians is eternal life through Jesus. The people you speak of are not Christians. Let's be clear here; these are not the teachings of Jesus or the church at all.
'Without God life has no meaning.' Meaning, meaning, meaning. But they never say 'importance'. 'Without God life has no importance.' Now if that is not what he/they mean to say, I sure would like to be informed as to what they did mean to say.
That's actually a good point. I'm assuming that for 'them' its all ultimately the same. It's very important to the Christian to believe life is meaningless without their faith. That's their best defense. That's all they have left.
@@TheMachiavellians God is the default answer to anything a religious person doesn't know. The question has to have some significance. From Where did the universe come from? to Where should I send my kids to school? The advantage; it makes for quick answers from a place of authority. It saves me from having to think, and especially, from having to think about thinking.
Pebble on Jupiter?Jupiter is a jovian aka gas planet!😂 This fellow professes to know what gives meaning to life, yet does not know the meaning of a planet. This is why he works in a field of "knowledge/theology" where nothing can be verified, where as in the real world his ineptitude is on full display.
In my mind the question 'Can life be meaningful without God' converts to 'Can understanding be possible in a world where miracles occur?' The first question all hinges on what one means by 'meaningful'. The second question is an attempt to make the ironical point 'Let's waste time discussing a more mysterious thing ( God ) and ignore a simpler subject ( miracles ), where perhaps we could find some clarity.'
@@TheMachiavellians Often speaking to religionists is unproductive because because during those discussions they are using words differently than we do. They will not allow themselves to be pinned down to any specifics. And when they do say something half specific, they contradict it five minutes later. Vagaries, obscurantism, and topic hopping. They are defending their worldview territory. I give up trying to show them their mistakes, their contradictions. I'm going to try just asking clarifying questions and, importantly, sharing my worldview. I'm fooling myself. They talk like they have the knowledge and certainty of God.
You sound like a broken record. We already got the point, christianity is the belief that the real reward is in the after life. This gideo could have been like 8nminutes shorter. Bit still thabks 🤣🤣
Jordan Peterson is incapable of giving a coherent and intelligible answer to anything connected to his religious convictions. He resorts to obfuscating sophistry and word salad when attempting to explain what he thinks he means. The net result of the majority of his many public ramblings on the subject, is to leave his audience and his interlocutor none the wiser either. If you can't explain your point in terms that a five year old could understand, then you either don't know your subject well enough or you don't want anyone else to know you don't know it.
@TheMachiavellians czcams.com/video/zmrv9NSKKYE/video.htmlsi=myF9A-wFABGrvUm6 This is quite a good unpacking of Peterson that also includes him summarising what he believes, when in a discussion with Sam Harris. He is a deeply intelligent but troubled and confused human being.
Well, to be fair, he has been on many powerful prescription medications. They are drugged rants. As Nietzsche pointed out with Kant, it is also the case with Peterson, that his philosophy is merely a confession of his own personal subjective convictions. Peterson's arguments are intentionally made obfuscated to avoid getting called out on the flaws.
Meaning doesn’t necessarily hinge upon God. Take a look at the existentialists and absurdists
the difference is only in that how anybody answers the last question on reality. There's a long chain of questions we ask to ourselves and then we create a divine substance or whatever. Accepting God, making choice of living or not, trying to live despite anything etc.
Positing gods existence would only offer meaning culturally or individually not objectively. Existentialism is trying to answer that question for yourself which is something we all must do.
@@TheMachiavellians no it’s definitely objective also no existentialism isn’t answering that question for yourself it’s just you using circular reasoning as if you’re somehow God yourself
Yeah they’re both full of crap 😂 meaning 100% hinges on God’s existence full stop you silly cow 🤦♂️
@@vladyslavstepulenko8155 you don’t create anything you donut 🤦♂️ God exists whether you want him to or not and whether you choose to believe or not
As a long time student of Aristotle, Nietzsche and Rand this is like music to my ears. The world is what it is, there is no fundamental problem of perception or concepts (like so many claim) to open up the doors to holy revelation and/or arbitrary deductions. There is this world, and no world beyond. Values and morality are facts of human life and they pertain to human life here on this earth. Live well and prosper people!
Let's stay sharp on those problems of conception, nonfundimental though they be, with cognitive linguistics and general Semantics. I am convinced they are the way to the next level.
Nietzsche would not say values and morality are ‘facts’ of life. If anything, they are interpretations of life but certainly not ‘facts’.
Lol Rand? 😂 fucking hell Tuval Hariri was right there is a useless class 🤦♂️
@@charlesdesobry9446 Nietzsche was a lunatic and so are all of you 🤣🤦♂️
Rand? 🤣 bloody hell Yuval Hariri was right there is a useless class of stupid people 🤦♂️
0:06. Leaving eternity to one side.
What do you think Jack, can a theological believer live a meaningful life?
Oh, I think they can Fred. For one thing its got to be a challenge to divide up your mind that way, I mean between a 'living here on earth' orientation and a 'heavens surely comming' orientation. Challenges like that, I suppose, can give your life meaning, even if I myself want to live my life with my mind all of one peice.
The afterlife is the only thing worth living for but hey if you people want to stay depressed be my guest 🤣
'I have no more meaning than a pebble on Jupiter.' I want to be important to the universe. I want to be acknowledged---cosmicly. Just being a part of nature with conciousness, and sharing an existence with that pebble, is not good enough.
Perhaps they want to be above nature and the world, not apart of it.
@@TheMachiavellians The fantasy to be above nature and the world IS part of the schtick. Two other parts. 1) 'I have no more meaning than a pebble'--- that is said to other people. The motivation is control over people. 'You should feel like you have no more meaning than a pebble on Jupiter. God will give you meaning and, like Moses, I will lead you to him.' 2) It seems to me many theists knows a lot more about God than they have questions. The situation is ripe for pontification. 'I'm an expert on God.' Contradictory statements are ignored, the God concept being so protean.
There are about as many pebbles on Jupiter as there are
parakeets.
@@liamhickey359 Yes because it's a gas giant, or so we're told. Actually, we don't know what Jupiter is. We don't know a lot of what we think we know.
Great video. I think you should bring back the intense music you used to use. I gave the video a somber but optimistic tone
No. He should not.
You know I feel Nietzche blames nihilsm too much on christianity I mean its not hard to imagine an ideal a world that is better than this world even without Christianity, there was potentially nihilists even before the Hellenic area, like Heraclitus who was blackpilled because of the idea of the constant change in the universe and that nothing stays the same, so Christianity isnt the sole cause of nihilism, it can be due to disappointment of any kind. Also I find that his solutions arent any good either and feels like a cope to be honest, like what even is the "ubermensch", Fiction!
Christianity in Germany isn’t a big deal?
You have to consider two things.
One: which is the biggest spread of nihilism which even the writer of Faust brought up in that book.
Two: the time, which even Arthur brought this up: it would be good to buy books if you could also buy the time to read them.
Not quite unless you get jokes.
His idea of the Uber is not quite to be taken literally.
Taking it as a joke which he does a lot to more or less incite rage from people and so on because he doesn’t want to be worshiped.
But however it isn’t a joke.
He rightfully blames Christians for Christians are NOT Christians.
They never followed Jesus, falsified his teachings and life for political gain.
There is a video on why Nietzsche didn’t view Jesus as a hero and it explains why: the cult around him.
Ou could explain Jesus as the Uber that Nietzsche mentioned.
A man free of resentment, was not overly attached to people or the world and found meaning, he didn’t demand to spread it by force and didn’t seek political power which he was killed for political power for the power of politics at the time.
His followers took his corpse after and his life and pretended to be all for his teachings but neglected the man who made them and who loved them.
The guy was an idiot and none of you can even agree on what the hell he was talking about
@@silent_stalker3687 like I said none of you know what he was talking about
@@silent_stalker3687 also how exactly have Christian’s “never followed Jesus” name one way Nietzsche was correct
@@silent_stalker3687 lol “cult” 😂 2 billion people is not a “cult” sweetheart
according to your definition of nihilism,was Nietzche's rejection of reality that exists beyond our sensory experience is considered nihilism too?
That's a great question. Nietzsche rejected the metaphysical "true world" as you mentioned for several reasons. He wanted to affirm the world of the senses because he actually considered it to be "reality". This stable, eternal world of metaphysics is opposed to what we actually observe about reality. What we see is a world of becoming not being. The metaphysicians have made the real world into a fable and Nietzsche was trying to restore its epistemological status. Philosophers propensity to ignore the senses and trust reason without evidence is considered nihilistic because it is life denying. Nihilism is the act of denying life and/or depreciating existence.
To the degree that the senses show becoming, passing away and change, they do not lie. - Nietzsche
You should go very far.I do not know who you are, but i understand that you have spent thousands of hours studying theology but mainly Nietzsche.I have studied Nietzsche intensely and i have analyzed him more than almost anyone.You are the only one, who not only understands and presents it perfectly, but also maybe studies it and embodies it more than even me.
I concur. I am tired of theologists who misrepresent Nietzsche, most likely intentionally. I have read 9 books of Nietzsche's and I do agree that Nietzsche is getting correctly represented here. I have also read and studied the Bible cover to cover and labeling it a nihilistic or ascetic philosophy pertaining to this existence we are all apart of seems to me a reasonable conclusion.
Meaning is understanding. The opposite of a nihilist is someone who thinks understanding is possible. I contend meaning is possible only if nature is natural and that supernaturalism is the nihilistic position.
0:06. Is someone here taking seriously the possibility found in the statement life is meaningless unless you live for an eternity?
What gives gemstones their value? Sure they are pretty to look at, yet some are more costly irrespective of their beauty. It is their rarity which brings great value and so to with life its temporal nature brings its greatest value. Eternity is true meaninglessness! Thank our lucky stars it is only a product of the mind coupled with sordid desire, a desire not properly vetted!
Great video because this statement that you choose to upload this video, which "there is no meaning in life without god" is in my opinion, if we took a Nietzschean stance were Peterson contradicts himself by criticizing communism, socialism and the progressive, because all of those mouvements are still made upon christian values and viewpoint meaning : salvation, emancipation, the ceasing of suffering, equality amongst all humans. Until Peterson adopts this christian framework, I am afraid for him, that the socialist mouvements that he criticized so much is bound to happen, again and again. What I am trying to say, that if we took a Nietzscehan view at all this, there is not a lot of difference between Peterson and the communism, it is like comparing water with ice.
The question is why not hinge our value upon something else than ? Perhaps honor like in ancient Greece ? Or beauty in the 17th century of France ? or maybe alienation as the supreme value like in Ancient Egypts ?
That's right. In a Nietzschean perspective, Christianity, communism, socialism, liberalism or democracy are all the same fundamentally. All of these ideologies utilize a Christian moral framework. They just differ in how to achieve the desired state and how far it should be pursued. Beneath all of them is the assumption of equal value which derives from the Christian belief in equality before god. Once you see the connection it all makes sense doesn't it.
Peterson has some really serious issues philosophically. I still have respect for the guy but I just feel that what he is doing will ultimately be self defeating like you said. His post-modern psychological interpretation of the bible might actually contribute to its demise because its so removed from the original context. Sadly people mistake ambiguity for profundity. Once the novelty wears off people will lose interest.
@@TheMachiavellianshe Christian moral framework is still very present in the western, perhaps even stronger than ever, and for me, Peterson is merely another symptom of this Christian moral sentiment. Particularly in the domain of art.
For example, as a student in painting, a disciple, I call a real artist, a person who has practiced intensely and mimicked the great classics for at least 20 years. Almost nobody can be called an artist in their twenties. They are not ripe enough. Only in there 40’s, are there real painters or a man of culture, of taste. I am 23 years old, and I cannot consider myself an artist yet. But who thinks that way nowadays in art ? Everything is about emancipation, liberation of constraints ! Nobody wants there ego hurt, and listen to the masters of the past. Nobody wants to be a slave first in the domain of art. That to me is a consequence of Christian value moral framework in the domain of art.
0:08. At the highest and most abstract level words, apparently, have no meaning.
that's rough maan..
This is a great summary
The belief of Christians is eternal life through Jesus. The people you speak of are not Christians. Let's be clear here; these are not the teachings of Jesus or the church at all.
Absolutely nailed it. Great analysis.
'Without God life has no meaning.' Meaning, meaning, meaning. But they never say 'importance'. 'Without God life has no importance.' Now if that is not what he/they mean to say, I sure would like to be informed as to what they did mean to say.
That's actually a good point. I'm assuming that for 'them' its all ultimately the same. It's very important to the Christian to believe life is meaningless without their faith. That's their best defense. That's all they have left.
@@TheMachiavellians God is the default answer to anything a religious person doesn't know. The question has to have some significance. From Where did the universe come from? to Where should I send my kids to school? The advantage; it makes for quick answers from a place of authority. It saves me from having to think, and especially, from having to think about thinking.
Pebble on Jupiter?Jupiter is a jovian aka gas planet!😂 This fellow professes to know what gives meaning to life, yet does not know the meaning of a planet. This is why he works in a field of "knowledge/theology" where nothing can be verified, where as in the real world his ineptitude is on full display.
In my mind the question 'Can life be meaningful without God' converts to 'Can understanding be possible in a world where miracles occur?' The first question all hinges on what one means by 'meaningful'. The second question is an attempt to make the ironical point 'Let's waste time discussing a more mysterious thing ( God ) and ignore a simpler subject ( miracles ), where perhaps we could find some clarity.'
I've been thinking the same. Asking whether or not god exists is not productive.
@@TheMachiavellians Often speaking to religionists is unproductive because because during those discussions they are using words differently than we do. They will not allow themselves to be pinned down to any specifics. And when they do say something half specific, they contradict it five minutes later. Vagaries, obscurantism, and topic hopping. They are defending their worldview territory. I give up trying to show them their mistakes, their contradictions. I'm going to try just asking clarifying questions and, importantly, sharing my worldview. I'm fooling myself. They talk like they have the knowledge and certainty of God.
You sound like a broken record. We already got the point, christianity is the belief that the real reward is in the after life. This gideo could have been like 8nminutes shorter. Bit still thabks 🤣🤣
Jordan Peterson is incapable of giving a coherent and intelligible answer to anything connected to his religious convictions. He resorts to obfuscating sophistry and word salad when attempting to explain what he thinks he means. The net result of the majority of his many public ramblings on the subject, is to leave his audience and his interlocutor none the wiser either.
If you can't explain your point in terms that a five year old could understand, then you either don't know your subject well enough or you don't want anyone else to know you don't know it.
What do you mean by religious convictions? Lol
@TheMachiavellians
czcams.com/video/zmrv9NSKKYE/video.htmlsi=myF9A-wFABGrvUm6
This is quite a good unpacking of Peterson that also includes him summarising what he believes, when in a discussion with Sam Harris. He is a deeply intelligent but troubled and confused human being.
Well, to be fair, he has been on many powerful prescription medications. They are drugged rants. As Nietzsche pointed out with Kant, it is also the case with Peterson, that his philosophy is merely a confession of his own personal subjective convictions. Peterson's arguments are intentionally made obfuscated to avoid getting called out on the flaws.
Objective meaning absolutely hinges upon God. Without God we only have subjective meaning. What we do from there is to be decided by us.