Reposting my comment from the previous upload. Great content as usual, Dale. The easiest way to explain it is to look at the black horse butt/rump piece (that you have included in this video) with yellow circles encapsulating the shells. The whole piece together is called horse butt/rump and the circled yellow ovals are the shells. I've only seen the "horsebutt" leather being cut and for the grain-out. A tannery that is trying to make shell cordovan specifically will cut off the "horse butt strips" and keep the ovular shells separate. They create two products by doing this. (2 shells) Shell cordovan and a horsehide strip -- the strip looks like a big mustache when cropped off. If you leave it un-cropped, the mustache and shells together, you get a complete "horse butt/rump". The horsehide strips are often very cool because they are pit tanned along side the shells in a nice vegetable tannage (tree bark tanning). The strips are a nice veg product but you don't see them used very often for two reasons. First, the horsehide strips are very narrow and they are an odd shape -- not easily cut into many patterns. Secondly, the horsehides in general have very rough and inconsistent grain...lots of scars/scratches/bug bites/etc -- it's a challenge to cut pattern pieces and avoid the imperfections. You do see the horsehide strips from Horween being used in gun holsters. Because the leather is vegetable tanned, a holster maker can wet mold the strip around a gun blank to make a form-fitted holster. Hope this helps. It's all quite confusing. Leather is a language.
Horse butt seems to have no crease compared with cow hide. If making a men clutch bag (laptop size) with horse rump, does it certainly have the shell component as you will need one big piece of bigger than a4 size leather?
Many thanks for this video, Sir. I was looking up the differences between shell cordovan and horsebutt (horserump) horsebutt (horserump) horsebutt (horserump) horsebutt (horserump) - 😁 but only you could explain it clearly and with examples. Thank you and enjoy your life! ❤
Hi bro - I am an expert in skin (it's my specialty as a physician). I think perhaps I can shed some light on this topic. Although I deal with human skin, the anatomy (meaning the tissue histology of the skin, not the body parts) is essentially the same for all mammals. The shell just refers to that particular part of the horse but, circled in the picture: All leather is "hide" or skin. Skin is composed of epidermis (outer surface), dermis (tissue just below epidermis, which is also called "corium" as labeled in your pic) and sub-cutis (or sub-cutaneous tissue) deep to the dermis, which is a mostly fatty layer. There is a little bit of muscle in skin, which is attached to the hairs and sweat glands, called periadnexal smooth muscle, but is a minimal component of skin, and located mostly in the dermis/corium. Your (or your horse's - it is the same anatomical structural makeup pretty much in all mammals, as I mentioned, with some technical differences) "actual" muscle, called skeletal muscle - the muscle you voluntarily control (unlike smooth muscle, which is not in your voluntary control), would cover the "twitch" muscles you are referring to, and this is very deep to the skin, not part of, or attached (for all practical purposes) to the overlying skin - it is separated by the sub-cutis, the deepest layer of skin. The shell cordovan is simply the "skin" or "hide" from that anatomic location.- the circled part, and the very top, most external layer, I believe, is shaved off. The "strip" or "horsebutt" is the skin or hide north (or proximal, toward the front of the horse), and may be treated a number of ways, but is simply from a different part of the horse, above the shell. Usually, I think, the horsebutt includes the superficial (external) layer, as opposed to the shell, but that is not what differentiates it anatomically - although it would change the appearance and feel of the leather. I don't know if this outer layer is ever split from the strip, but if so, or if it was sanded down, this would make the strip appear closer to what shell looks and feels like, in the sense that it would be smoother and shinier. The "flesh" is just the deepest part of the corium or dermis, which is the fibrous layer of skin (which is composed mostly of collagen, which is a kind of fibrous tissue, and may or may not have "hyaline" components - something you referred to in your video) - it is where the dermis meets the sub-cutis. The "flesh" layer is what you would see on "rough-out" leather. It is the "rough" part of the skin (you could also call it "flesh-out" leather, for clarification, although no one does). Well, I never thought I would be chatting so much about a horse's ass :)
Not confusing, just more information. 😎 I was an avid equestrian growing up and knowing about leather, quality and excellence of craft is very important. I’m searching for a high quality pair of custom MTO work boots 🥾. I’m thinking about Flame 🔥 Panda 🐼. I use glycerine saddle soap for cleaning and Lexoil for conditioning all my shoes and boots, same as I use on hose tack all my life. These items are very reasonable and do a superb job. No need to buy expensive Saphir or other boutique care items. Try it . You will be amazed. Not crazy about the brown biker jacket. They are supposed to be black. End of story. Nice video. 👍☮️🌞🌟🐎🥾❤️
I’m taking anatomy in college at the moment and it was really interesting hearing about all the layers of the skin and muscle when referring to boots. Maybe my tests wouldn’t kick my butt if they were on shell cordovan.
TLDR: Shell cordovan is the connective tissue/fascia underneath the actual skin of the horse's hindquarters. If you ever dissect a cadaver or an animal, you will find similar fibrous layers throughout the body. A fascinating fact is that the process of tanning shell was developed by the Goths during the migration period, once they had settled in Iberia.
Look at the horserump leather's edge, and the same for cowhide. Horse is dense, not spongy. Cowhide is more spongy. Horse is more water resistant, and more abrasion resistant.
I might be crazy, but around the 20min mark when you’re saying you can’t tell the difference between horse rump and cowhide and you have the three examples on screen, it definitely looks like the horse breaks in smoother in between the rolls without the little scaling that you can see on both the cowhide examples.
Orientation of leather also matters. Less for creasing in shell but sometimes different orientations will catch the light differently. Especially with light colours like saddle brown the orientation becomes very apparent. Great video. I learned a lot
Adding to the confusion - Viberg just dropped their 2030 service boot in “double cordovan” which it is claiming is unshaved horse butt. Based on the 1700$+ price one would think this is more special than regular shell Cordovan?
Am I wrong? Your toscanello horserump might has shell in it, making it does not crease. But your navy horseump does not have shell so it crease like normal leather.
man this is a profound insight, and I think you may be correct!! some of my horse rumps look different from other ones. this could very well be the case!!
I have a question. What is the texture on those beautiful shinki horsebutt boots from/called? The lines in the vamp and the almost marbles cells in the toe? What are they? Is that from the shell or is that just a characteristic of horse leather? And what is the proper term for that texture/marbling?
man that's a great texture!! i just refer to it as its "honeycomb pattern" but i realize that's probably not the proper term. if i find out i'll let you know!
@@DalesLeatherworks Thanks man! Because of your video on the Renav Shinki boots, I reached out to Ray via Instagram and asked about getting a pair, but unfortunately the leather is still out of stock. Instead I just put down a deposit for Badalassi Carlo Minerva Cognac engineer boots (unapologetically inspired by John Lofgren's engineers) haha. If the fit on the engineers is good, I'll definitely be getting a pair of shinki boots from Ray when that damned tannery finally restocks.
So if you get horsebutt boots that have the shell intact, they have to be the toughest boots you can get. A layer of shell sandwiched inside the horse leather sounds indestructible to me.
yessir that's pretty much the case! though i've seen some super thick leathers recently that are SO much thicker and more durable than anything i've ever seen, shell included. the reason why shell is used in footwear is because the weight and temper is ideal for footwear and it just happens to be thin and pliable enough to work as boots but also offer more durabilty over other leathers in the same weight/temper category if that makes sense!
For someone that wants 1 pair of boots that will last 40 years would you go to the viberg price point or would something cheaper(5-600) ish do just as good
That’s a great question, it comes down to what you consider your grail boot, at which point price becomes a secondary concern especially if you’re planning on owning them for that long. That said, my Vibergs in Shinki horserump could easily be a one and done boot and those were $900
I’m going to assume that whole cut horse butt contains some shell in order to get large enough pieces to make a whole cut boot/shoe.🧐🤷♂️🤔 The whole cut horse butt taupe 5” from Viberg are still $900 U.S. 🤷♂️
That's what all types of leather are all about, the center fibrous part: some have the grain, some don't. The flesh layer, though, tends to be a fascia and fat layer rather than muscle; I suppose this factor, plus the species of the skin bearer, is what defines the qualities of leather raw material, aside age and gender of the animal. In the case of shell cordovan, the "shell" seems to be a thick and strong fascia layer between the "corium" (fibrous center) and the "flesh": there are different ways to describe this anatomically but nonetheless it's some type of tough collagen tissue beneath leather. Now, the "cordovan" name comes from Spanish "cordobán", which designated the dark color of high quality tanned male goat skin used for repoussè, hence the cordovan shell would be a term loaned to refer of the quality of the material produced out of the shell and the color (that classic black or dark brown that characterize the shell cordovan), that's interesting!! This color was attained by using some specific tannins that were much more durable and gave those colors to the leather, which is a hint of how the shell cordovan was tanned at first.
Note: I think you are confusing flesh (the lower layer from the inside of the animal to the outside) with the corium or fibrous layer of the skin in between flesh and grain (outer skin from inside to the outside, where the hair is). The flesh is eliminated during tanning and later when the whole skin is tanned, the corium or fibrous layer gets shaved after the tanning process, along with the grain to obtain a "pure" shell, though I think it can also be split by an splitting machine that does a division through cutting the layers precisely. Shaving the grain and the core is a common procedure in leather making nowadays because it allows rectification of the presentation of the skin through embossing, performed by some special machinery that press a faux grain on the shaved skin. The leather shavings are usually sold for animal food.
Am I the only one who dislikes those " rolls " on a well worn shell cordovan boot ? Something about it reminds me of a boot that doesn;t look like it fits right , and gets crumpled up. For me, not a good look.
I would never ever buy a shell cordavan bokt, only because it reminds me of the fake patton or platton plastic leather look , whichever way it's spelled, to dish out that much money and wear it in public , people who doesn't know leather will no doubt think your wearing that fake plastic leather look . Yes you do care what people think , you want to sport them and get compliments , but with shell most would think plastic leather look , that's fact.
yeah, ostrich costs less but might look more expensive to the people you need to impress. Even these military and work boot styles give a less expensive signal. Better to stick with oxfords, balmorals and vintage Jordans.
Reposting my comment from the previous upload. Great content as usual, Dale.
The easiest way to explain it is to look at the black horse butt/rump piece (that you have included in this video) with yellow circles encapsulating the shells. The whole piece together is called horse butt/rump and the circled yellow ovals are the shells. I've only seen the "horsebutt" leather being cut and for the grain-out. A tannery that is trying to make shell cordovan specifically will cut off the "horse butt strips" and keep the ovular shells separate. They create two products by doing this. (2 shells) Shell cordovan and a horsehide strip -- the strip looks like a big mustache when cropped off. If you leave it un-cropped, the mustache and shells together, you get a complete "horse butt/rump". The horsehide strips are often very cool because they are pit tanned along side the shells in a nice vegetable tannage (tree bark tanning). The strips are a nice veg product but you don't see them used very often for two reasons. First, the horsehide strips are very narrow and they are an odd shape -- not easily cut into many patterns. Secondly, the horsehides in general have very rough and inconsistent grain...lots of scars/scratches/bug bites/etc -- it's a challenge to cut pattern pieces and avoid the imperfections. You do see the horsehide strips from Horween being used in gun holsters. Because the leather is vegetable tanned, a holster maker can wet mold the strip around a gun blank to make a form-fitted holster. Hope this helps. It's all quite confusing. Leather is a language.
Horse butt seems to have no crease compared with cow hide. If making a men clutch bag (laptop size) with horse rump, does it certainly have the shell component as you will need one big piece of bigger than a4 size leather?
Many thanks for this video, Sir. I was looking up the differences between shell cordovan and horsebutt (horserump) horsebutt (horserump) horsebutt (horserump) horsebutt (horserump) - 😁 but only you could explain it clearly and with examples. Thank you and enjoy your life! ❤
Glad it was helpful my friend!!!
i just ordered a pair of john lofgren horsebutt boots and this was extremely helpful. i love all of your videos.
Very informative and necessary information to be acknowledge by the boot community congratulations Sir. Excellent video.
Thank you so much kind sir!!!!
Hi bro - I am an expert in skin (it's my specialty as a physician). I think perhaps I can shed some light on this topic. Although I deal with human skin, the anatomy (meaning the tissue histology of the skin, not the body parts) is essentially the same for all mammals. The shell just refers to that particular part of the horse but, circled in the picture: All leather is "hide" or skin. Skin is composed of epidermis (outer surface), dermis (tissue just below epidermis, which is also called "corium" as labeled in your pic) and sub-cutis (or sub-cutaneous tissue) deep to the dermis, which is a mostly fatty layer. There is a little bit of muscle in skin, which is attached to the hairs and sweat glands, called periadnexal smooth muscle, but is a minimal component of skin, and located mostly in the dermis/corium. Your (or your horse's - it is the same anatomical structural makeup pretty much in all mammals, as I mentioned, with some technical differences) "actual" muscle, called skeletal muscle - the muscle you voluntarily control (unlike smooth muscle, which is not in your voluntary control), would cover the "twitch" muscles you are referring to, and this is very deep to the skin, not part of, or attached (for all practical purposes) to the overlying skin - it is separated by the sub-cutis, the deepest layer of skin. The shell cordovan is simply the "skin" or "hide" from that anatomic location.- the circled part, and the very top, most external layer, I believe, is shaved off. The "strip" or "horsebutt" is the skin or hide north (or proximal, toward the front of the horse), and may be treated a number of ways, but is simply from a different part of the horse, above the shell. Usually, I think, the horsebutt includes the superficial (external) layer, as opposed to the shell, but that is not what differentiates it anatomically - although it would change the appearance and feel of the leather. I don't know if this outer layer is ever split from the strip, but if so, or if it was sanded down, this would make the strip appear closer to what shell looks and feels like, in the sense that it would be smoother and shinier. The "flesh" is just the deepest part of the corium or dermis, which is the fibrous layer of skin (which is composed mostly of collagen, which is a kind of fibrous tissue, and may or may not have "hyaline" components - something you referred to in your video) - it is where the dermis meets the sub-cutis. The "flesh" layer is what you would see on "rough-out" leather. It is the "rough" part of the skin (you could also call it "flesh-out" leather, for clarification, although no one does). Well, I never thought I would be chatting so much about a horse's ass :)
My favorite go to resource for my favorite hobby! Thank you for what you do. Nice done as always
Thank you for your always-amazing and encouraging comments my man!!!!
This is fantastic, I've been waiting for a video like this.
that's so great to hear, I hope it lives up to your expectations!!!
Not confusing, just more information. 😎 I was an avid equestrian growing up and knowing about leather, quality and excellence of craft is very important. I’m searching for a high quality pair of custom MTO work boots 🥾. I’m thinking about Flame 🔥 Panda 🐼. I use glycerine saddle soap for cleaning and Lexoil for conditioning all my shoes and boots, same as I use on hose tack all my life. These items are very reasonable and do a superb job. No need to buy expensive Saphir or other boutique care items. Try it . You will be amazed. Not crazy about the brown biker jacket. They are supposed to be black. End of story.
Nice video. 👍☮️🌞🌟🐎🥾❤️
wow this is amazing feedback, thank you so much!!!!
I’m taking anatomy in college at the moment and it was really interesting hearing about all the layers of the skin and muscle when referring to boots. Maybe my tests wouldn’t kick my butt if they were on shell cordovan.
Amazing insights here!!! Thank you for all of this knowledge and paving the way for novice guys like me! :)
Thank you very much for your useful information !!! It's all clear...
so glad to hear it!!!
TLDR: Shell cordovan is the connective tissue/fascia underneath the actual skin of the horse's hindquarters. If you ever dissect a cadaver or an animal, you will find similar fibrous layers throughout the body.
A fascinating fact is that the process of tanning shell was developed by the Goths during the migration period, once they had settled in Iberia.
That’s fascinating!! Where can I find out more? Thanks for this!
What?! That's wild!
Thank you for the lesson again!! Great resource!
That was great, man! Thank you for your research.
Look at the horserump leather's edge, and the same for cowhide. Horse is dense, not spongy. Cowhide is more spongy. Horse is more water resistant, and more abrasion resistant.
I might be crazy, but around the 20min mark when you’re saying you can’t tell the difference between horse rump and cowhide and you have the three examples on screen, it definitely looks like the horse breaks in smoother in between the rolls without the little scaling that you can see on both the cowhide examples.
Orientation of leather also matters. Less for creasing in shell but sometimes different orientations will catch the light differently. Especially with light colours like saddle brown the orientation becomes very apparent. Great video. I learned a lot
Adding to the confusion - Viberg just dropped their 2030 service boot in “double cordovan” which it is claiming is unshaved horse butt. Based on the 1700$+ price one would think this is more special than regular shell Cordovan?
That's where the "berg" part of Viberg shows up...
Am I wrong?
Your toscanello horserump might has shell in it, making it does not crease. But your navy horseump does not have shell so it crease like normal leather.
man this is a profound insight, and I think you may be correct!! some of my horse rumps look different from other ones. this could very well be the case!!
Great topic!
I have a question. What is the texture on those beautiful shinki horsebutt boots from/called? The lines in the vamp and the almost marbles cells in the toe? What are they? Is that from the shell or is that just a characteristic of horse leather? And what is the proper term for that texture/marbling?
man that's a great texture!! i just refer to it as its "honeycomb pattern" but i realize that's probably not the proper term. if i find out i'll let you know!
@@DalesLeatherworks Thanks man! Because of your video on the Renav Shinki boots, I reached out to Ray via Instagram and asked about getting a pair, but unfortunately the leather is still out of stock. Instead I just put down a deposit for Badalassi Carlo Minerva Cognac engineer boots (unapologetically inspired by John Lofgren's engineers) haha. If the fit on the engineers is good, I'll definitely be getting a pair of shinki boots from Ray when that damned tannery finally restocks.
@@lucasbrucas9632 man it sounds like you made a very good choice!! wear those badalassi's in good health my friend!!
So if you get horsebutt boots that have the shell intact, they have to be the toughest boots you can get. A layer of shell sandwiched inside the horse leather sounds indestructible to me.
yessir that's pretty much the case! though i've seen some super thick leathers recently that are SO much thicker and more durable than anything i've ever seen, shell included. the reason why shell is used in footwear is because the weight and temper is ideal for footwear and it just happens to be thin and pliable enough to work as boots but also offer more durabilty over other leathers in the same weight/temper category if that makes sense!
Another good one!
Thanks so much!!!
Dale, I appreciate your research
thanks so much kind sir!!!
what boot leather is most prone to stretching and what is your experience in a boot becoming too loose?
A lot of my Chromexcel has stretched a lot (not all, but most) and yes it can become quite loose!!
For someone that wants 1 pair of boots that will last 40 years would you go to the viberg price point or would something cheaper(5-600) ish do just as good
That’s a great question, it comes down to what you consider your grail boot, at which point price becomes a secondary concern especially if you’re planning on owning them for that long. That said, my Vibergs in Shinki horserump could easily be a one and done boot and those were $900
Another question - what does it mean with the “Shell intact” for Shinki
when will you do a update on the shrunken bison boot
good idea, I need to soon!!
I’m going to assume that whole cut horse butt contains some shell in order to get large enough pieces to make a whole cut boot/shoe.🧐🤷♂️🤔
The whole cut horse butt taupe 5” from Viberg are still $900 U.S. 🤷♂️
That's what all types of leather are all about, the center fibrous part: some have the grain, some don't. The flesh layer, though, tends to be a fascia and fat layer rather than muscle; I suppose this factor, plus the species of the skin bearer, is what defines the qualities of leather raw material, aside age and gender of the animal. In the case of shell cordovan, the "shell" seems to be a thick and strong fascia layer between the "corium" (fibrous center) and the "flesh": there are different ways to describe this anatomically but nonetheless it's some type of tough collagen tissue beneath leather.
Now, the "cordovan" name comes from Spanish "cordobán", which designated the dark color of high quality tanned male goat skin used for repoussè, hence the cordovan shell would be a term loaned to refer of the quality of the material produced out of the shell and the color (that classic black or dark brown that characterize the shell cordovan), that's interesting!! This color was attained by using some specific tannins that were much more durable and gave those colors to the leather, which is a hint of how the shell cordovan was tanned at first.
Note: I think you are confusing flesh (the lower layer from the inside of the animal to the outside) with the corium or fibrous layer of the skin in between flesh and grain (outer skin from inside to the outside, where the hair is). The flesh is eliminated during tanning and later when the whole skin is tanned, the corium or fibrous layer gets shaved after the tanning process, along with the grain to obtain a "pure" shell, though I think it can also be split by an splitting machine that does a division through cutting the layers precisely. Shaving the grain and the core is a common procedure in leather making nowadays because it allows rectification of the presentation of the skin through embossing, performed by some special machinery that press a faux grain on the shaved skin. The leather shavings are usually sold for animal food.
For conditioning house hide boots, would you use a cream designed for shell or just your normal leather cream?
that depends! i use venetian shoe cream on cordovan but saphir renovateur on horse rump
I use VSC on everything.
Thank you for the information. What products do you use to take care of your boot collection ?
Mostly Venetian!
Great video! Hard to find information. Any idea where I could get strips of shell cordovan in say 8x3 or 10x4 inches for stropping knives? Thanks!
thank you! good question, i see buckleguy.com sells shell and so does rmleathersupply.com and many others, it's just expensive!
@@DalesLeatherworks Thanks for the info!
Cromexcell is not the hide its the tanning process 😉 so you could in reality get cromexcell pig if they used pighide right??
You could!!! I wouldn’t recommend it though!!
@@DalesLeatherworks why not lol🤣🤣
the heck happened y the private then reupload?
I had some corrections to make!!! 😅😅😅
Am I the only one who dislikes those " rolls " on a well worn shell cordovan boot ? Something about it reminds me of a boot that doesn;t look like it fits right , and gets crumpled up. For me, not a good look.
It’s fascia. That’s all.
I would never ever buy a shell cordavan bokt, only because it reminds me of the fake patton or platton plastic leather look , whichever way it's spelled, to dish out that much money and wear it in public , people who doesn't know leather will no doubt think your wearing that fake plastic leather look . Yes you do care what people think , you want to sport them and get compliments , but with shell most would think plastic leather look , that's fact.
yeah, ostrich costs less but might look more expensive to the people you need to impress.
Even these military and work boot styles give a less expensive signal. Better to stick with oxfords, balmorals and vintage Jordans.