Criticisms of The EDH Rules Committee - Format Philosophy & Next Steps
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- The EDH rules committee has provided us with an update for the EDH format and where they want to take it, lets discuss!
#mtg #magicthegathering #cedh #edh #reaction
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Commander Rules Committee Tweet: / 1780245358817501186
APRIL 2024 “QUARTERLY” UPDATE (MTGCommander.net): mtgcommander.n...
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Commander players think Orcish Bowmasters is a problem in Casual EDH?
*laughs in Modern*
No they thought it was a issue in CEDH. I think the OP didn't push that well enough that it's CEDH that is stale
Laughs in legacy
@@xaropevic7918 wait legacy still exists? laughs in tynnyleaders pauper limited
Commander players didn't know this was an issue... This is one guy who's friends all tutor them up every game apparently
@@wademiller2376 it's an issue that gets diminished when tutros go down, nonthe less and issue
Rule zero, a rule that assumes people are rational, social and knowledgeable enough to olay a game with no rules.
Ah, yes, rule 0, the old fallback. It works 100% of the time.... 40% of the time.
If you're playing with friends or a regular group... it's unnecessary.
If you're playing against randoms... it's unhelpful.
If a card does nothing in the format when it gets unbanned what’s the point of the banning in the first place?
Since EDH is NOT A COMPETETIVE FORMAT and has not been since it's inception I see the issue is too many people trying to make it competitive. The singleton rule is core to the format and in place to minimize consistency and allow for new experiences and challenges each game. The multiplayer aspect will add to both of those values and increase the amount of unexpected interactions in a game.
The CRC's hands-off philosophy is pretty great (and more governments should move that direction). Frequent changes to the ban list will only create more problems and heartache. Deciding to accept your faults and drive on (e.g.: banned cards that maybe don't need to be banned) is wisdom. The comparative lack of structure to the format is why so many people prefer it. It's the wild west and should remain largely that way. Every change to the ban list (looser or tighter) will have unintended consequences so need to be treated with care.
Also, I see the commander RC as a bastion against WotC. I am so very thankful every time I play that they do not allow WotC to control the format because to date EDH has been about the purity of the game and not the desire for the dollar.
Personally if unbanning a card won't shake up things. why is the card still banned?
100% agree if it wont shake things up then it shouldnt be banned and how lutri can still be banned when they could jusy ban as a companion but even then the revised companion rules mean that it is essentially like 5 mana for a copy spell
10:20 just because something is unbanned and shakes the format up a lil bit doesn't mean it would invalidate decks. I think the Preordain unban in modern was fine, the card saw play, it changed the landscape if only slightly, yet all decks were still perfectly viable
that being said, I like the "hands off" approach of the comittee, I like the decentralization of commander where everyone could theoretically build up their own lil format with a personnalized banlist (or "unban" list), we can rule 0 unset or custom cards, there's a lot of fun stuff to be done
that being said I only play EDH with friends and mostly because they won't play 60 cards formats lol
Main RC issues:
1.) they ban for casual edh, yet dockside and cards alike are still legal. Card is egregious and even the cedh players hate it.
2.) rule zero is extremely difficult when most ppl get pickup games at an lgs and dont have their own playgroup.
Mindset & power level are an issue in casual edh; ppl cannot self govern and modern players especially when they pod up.
3.) there needs to be either:
More bans in casual,
A separation of edh & cedh,
OR a clear guide definition of what casual edh is and what’s taboo for casual pods.
I’ve said this before many times, falling back on ‘rule 0’ is a coward move.
We’ve all always played kitchen table which is rule 0.
Most stores, even with closer friends, known players, all just go ‘we do commander and it follow the official commander format, rules, and ban list”. There is ZERO more policing. Sure, you can scoop and walk off if you don’t like XYZ deck or card, but you’ll be labeled a quitter and quickly find no pods will sit with you.
Further to calling them cowards, they go about the social aspect ‘first’ and then cower behind ‘individuals love their deck and we would hate to see them have to move out even a single card’. Which is it, do you care about the social aspects at large or the individual?
What do you mean by falling back on rule 0?
@@bwahchannel9746 the large reason commander won’t or “shouldn’t” ban more cards is because it’s a social format and rule 0 should prevail.
The idea is rule 0 is your personal friend group or pod’s custom rules or cards you don’t allow - the idea is people and groups will moderate themselves so why have the committee mix up by being strict and completely banning cards.
This is great in theory and was always the rule for playing with friends at home - aka what we always called and played since the game started as kitchen table magic. House rules, made up formats, ignoring an annoying friend’s stupid play.
I’m calling them cowards because this has happened since 1993 already. The issue is, where a lot of people play is at a LGS. And around here, large USA city, any and all stores play commander only by the official rules and ban list.
Stores only do this for ease of running commander days and consistency for players. Nobody, and I mean nobody, at any store that I frequent or could easily go to plays anything else. There is never a rule 0 and if someone did try that, they’d be told no and to leave if they had banned cards.
At this point, just follow the vintage ban list and be done.
💯
@Morphling92 wow there's so much wrong with your understanding of the RC's role and intentions that it's hard to decide where to start.
I've got stuff to do so I'm not even going to bother, but you should know that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the format, rule zero, and how it's supposed to be implemented. 🤦🤦🤦
@@majinvegeta6364 what a productive comment. “You’re wrong and can’t tell you how but you are”.
Which indicates I’m not wrong.
The RC is wrong as they are allegedly stewards of the largest and most played format ever in magic. And while it’s “unofficial” it’s not. It’s the de facto and de jure format now as they collude with wizards and product is made specifically for it and the name even changed from EDH to officially commander for legal reasons.
As they are the ones in charge, they can’t hide behind a “rule 0” thing anytime they need to address issues. LGS don’t have time to implement 27 house rules or want to deal with customers who might be put off from crazy rule 0 things. Stores need consistency and purely following a widely published list of banned cards and rules is the most sensible way for them to approach structured play.
Again, do most LGS follow anything but the posted ban list and rules? Yes. I’ve first hand seen rule 0 attempts be met with “no thanks, we only follow the official rules and bans, please respect that or do not play”.
For me, I think cEDH has become very stale as someone who has played it since 2017 and still fervently enjoyed casual EDH, pre-Dockside and Thassa's Oracle though there were the defined best decks like for example Paradox Engine Thrasios/Tymna variants or like Food Chain Tazri, you'd still find whacky unique card choices or commander choices where I'd go "Hold on, what the fuck does this do?" then have a laugh, take my loss and go to game two or pack up for the night despite the cEDH mindset being to optimize as best as you can and I'd say that also ties into the existence of Dockside and Thassa's because Dockside invalidates the more eccentric artifact decks and the pace which Thoracle decks win is blisteringly fast where as when it was LabMan, there were hoops to jump through and Jace was debatably similar in terms of the mana you had to invest while both of the latter were quite interactable.
From the regular EDH perspective, the "EDH is stale" comment is a sentiment I've seen becoming a lot more prominent but I think it's a twofold issue or not really issue but as I'm typing I can't find a better word for it. There was a video put out by another content creator named Snail speaking on the first issue which basically speaks about the benchmark of budget cards like Counterspell, Sol Ring, etc being quite strong as they are so the next logical step is to fill your deck with cards that are strict improvements to what is already there, so Sol Ring becomes Mana Crypt, Counterspell becomes Mana Drain, etc so decks become same-y which is not really anyone's fault because going to gatherer for example and then typing what you are looking for text-wise can sometimes be unintuitive especially as a new player.
Ban-wise, I think that mindset has to be reevaluated in the sense of either committing to this chaotic format where stuff like Dockside, Thassa's, Bowmasters, etc exists by removing the more haymaker options for regular EDH like Iona, Rofellos, Prophet of Kruphix, Golos or even Paradox Engine and pushing harder for the Rule 0 conversation to be the method to equalize expectations while these haymakers exist in the format or stepping in and saying "a higher majority of the community is unhappy with these cards in the format, so these are getting the axe." whether it's even true or not, and while the power vacuum for Thoracle, Dockside and the like would be filled, I'm certain that the alternatives would be a lot less oppressive.
Food Chain Tazri was a blast. I remember the deck well. I spend countless hours brewing it and figuring out the lines for it.
A lot of the work done with the deck did eventually help with Atraxa, but it was a truly unique at the time.
The convergence of wincons isn't really a bad thing, since there are still quite a few commander specific strategies that don't involve ThoracleConsult, Dockside loops or Breach lines. Getting rid of the weaker and more random stuff is a good thing overall.
I like that a major complaint has been that, because EDH doesn't ban cards left and right like most other formats, somehow that makes the Commander Rules Committee stupid or useless. No - it means they just don't butt into the game when they don't need to. I'm happy that they don't ban a billion cards in the format that is designed as a no-holds-barred free-for-all. And that "EDH meta is so stale right now" argument is so stupid in a format that _has no meta._ cEDH somewhat has a meta, given the prevalence of Thoracle and Thracios/Tymna. But I don't know how Bowmasters fits into this argument at all. Yeah, it's powerful, but nowhere near game-breaking - it's only debilitating in a deck with a pinger/wheel package. It doesn't go in every deck like, say, Thoracle or the One Ring. But cEDH, again, only accounts for like 15% of EDH players. If the Rules Committee wants to make a cEDH-specific banlist featuring Thoracle/Dockside/Sheoldred/Bowmasters/etc, that's fine by me. But this entire argument seems to not be centered around the Rules Committee or the Advisory Committee themselves - it's just a bunch of pissy people asking the committees to neuter decks they don't like at their LGS's.
Do you think this predicates a formalized separation of 'cEDH' and 'Commander'? A format that IS tailored a bit closer to the vest for the sake of competition, and then one managed by this ethos?
Also- do you think that there should be more bans in line with cards already on the banlist? This philosophy update did not touch some of the open questions from their Banlist clarity work at the beginning of the year- namely that things like "Timetwister" were banned for the warping power they provided while ALSO being price-blocking to the average player. This philosophy seems to imply players SHOULD self-select to not play with things on the reserve list, but should the Reserve list- or at least extreme outliers on both power and price- on the Reserve list also end up banned as well on the same philosophy? That seems to be in line with the "Not for the sake of shake up" but more akin to "In keeping with consistency" but to be frank- I am on the fence when I think about it myself.
Pretty sure the issue with commander is the opposite of it being stale, so many new powerful cards are being shoved into it every month of every year for the last 5 years that it's a borderline rotating format.
"25% of the time you'll be winning the game" THANK YOU I think more commander players need to realize this. All things being equal, you'll lose most of your games!!! That's just how it works!
if it won't change anything to unban cards then why not unban them? doesn't the doc say deck diversity is good?
Yeah, I'm a pro olympian banlist, if it's banned it actually deserves to be banned. It did, and does things against the format spirit, AND IS THE TOP NOTCH EXAMPLE, not a biorythm, but a thoracle out of nowhere wincon
the banned cards in commander aren't there for power level issues mostly, but because they are super salty cards that don't lead to a satisfying experience.
like flash hulk, where for 2 mana at instant speed you could have won.
or many many land mass removal which leads to morons playing those without a plan in mind and ruining a game night, I've seen those upheavals.
@@dariomenegazzo8039 yeah but flash was fine. Hulk is the real problem here. He will be broken again by something. He was banned before. Now he is in limbo as casuals learned the card isn’t fun and it isn’t good enough for CEDH.
@@kevin_Masters flash was not fine lmao. Even without protein hulk, there are like 10 million ways flash can get abused
@@kevin_Mastersat least if u put protein hulk in your deck, you need to dedicate a few slots of Ur deck to commit to the combo. As long as there is a creature with good etb, flash can abuse it
I just wanted to stop by and say I’m glad you’ve expanded into EDH content! I still play Modern (Spirits & LE).
Modern isn’t even as bad right now after the VO ban, but damn - is it nice to take a break from the BS of Modern and play Commander.
Hope you feel the same way, and hope you also play Mill in EDH! Who are your commanders?
Happy to see folks enjoy it!
I used to exclusively avoid mill in EDH cause I played it so much in constructed but my Pheldagrif group Hug deck s wins primarily through self mill and I have a Mothman deck that's slowly being tuned!
The format is definitely stale if you’re a CEDH player. That being said, yes, the format is teeming with win conditions if you’re willing to play 10-20 turns a game. Please don’t make sweeping broad statements for the entire format when you barely play it lmao.
It’s not stale at all. Just because the best decks are the best doesn’t make it stale. I consume basically every cEDH content channel there is and follow all the bigger tournaments and there are plenty of decks that don’t appear in top 16 breaking thru every week.
@@jamesgreenwood1703 tell me you don’t play cedh without telling me you don’t play.
And CEDH has variety between not only different commanders but also within the same commanders as well. There’s innovation at the top level games that happen.
@@peace957 wow that’s a really good argument
My issue has always been they are inconsistent they preach rule zero, and then ban cards that while powerful and maybe best in a lot could just be a “rule zero” so which is it? Looking at Braids and Rofellos or even Iona in particular. Or cards like upheaval. Do I want to play against it… no, but how is it any worse than Armageddon which is not banned?
Ok I am not disagreeing with you on that sentiment but man you could have chosen so many better examples than the ones you did
Armaggedon is sadly the only answer to the green player having 20 lands on turn 5 because Wizard is afraid to print mass land destruction
@@laytonjr6601 Fair!I meant to say apocalypses lol
@@Yoshi6851you obviously do not understand how or why cards are banned in EDH. It's not that cards are "too good" like other formats. It's based on whether they create "unfun" play patterns. Braids forces players to sacrifice lands. If it only effected nonland permanents, then it would be fine. The same can be said for Upheaval. The reason Apocalypse isn't banned is because it has the built-in drawback of forcing the player who cast it to discard their hand thereby making it harder to exploit. Iona just locks one or two players out of the game. Sheldon was open to unbanning Rofellos. Sadly, he'll never get to though 😔😔😔
@@majinvegeta6364 i do get the rules philosophy, but the rules committee doesn’t ban consistently. Every stax card should be banned by that logic. But they don’t ban cards like stax or smokestack due to “rule zero”
So more so of one on one formats, when you add power creep into a format the lack of official bans of the the cards on the out lying power scale effectively is banning many more cards. Take bow master invalidates more cards and strategies than it empowers so wile it not being on the official ban list, it effectively grows the ban list.
I am going to make two Lurrus/Bjorna/Wernog decks,
One is a probably proxied CEDH list that is the meta blue farm deck, probably slightly worse since I want Lurrus as a companion and this forces Bjorna/Wernog instead of slightly better value commanders, yet it should still be the same deck, as blue farm does not rely on its commanders to win games, only for extra value.
The other deck is going to be my fun version, with 13 cards that start in the command zone, oops all artifact aristocrats with all the Oni-Cult Anvil / Hidden stockpile type effects I can find, that vomit out expendable artifacts to gain value off of.
"Without tutors, you're not going to be seeing it in most of your games." Brother, OBM is a black card.
Yes and yes. I'm not wasting a tutor on bowmasters...
MillGuy: "You're only going to win 25% of the time."
The Best Player in Each EDH Friend Group: "Tell me more about that..."
I totally agree with you, but it's NEVER an even field and one player can easily get a very high win rate. Not even from deck power but just from skill at playing the game.
You'd think they'd make it so you can have banned cards as commanders but they'd be ok in the 99 like Emrakul or Golos
I agree that Casual Commander or groups that can discuss their power level are pretty open to any type of deck.
However from a cEDH perspective we're currently in Midrange Hell where even Turbo decks struggle to push through. It would be nice to see bans/unbans to actually shake things up or be rid of Thassa's Orcale at the very least.
I personally would like it if there were more unbans in Commander. I totally respect why some of them were banned as some of them can lead to some pretty degenerate lists but honestly there's nuts stuff in the legal cards and I don't think the gameplay environment would be that hurt by returning at least a few of the banned things to the pool.
Ive never used rule zero and dont want to, i want a baseline format where i can just play the game. Not have to go through some checklist first. I use proxies so ill let them know that, and my deck is quite strong and leave it at that
I have seen around 4 bowmasters this year and they got removed like after top 2 triggers. 1 got countered.
More and more 1 mana removal and counters
I think no changes is fine, because at the end of the day it is a casual format.
But I would still like a ban on cards that match similar rules to bans made previously. Cards like Mox Diamond, a reserved list card that is ultimately a staple... But is priced out of the format for people unwilling to proxy, or can't. Or Thoracle, which even now still heavily influences cedh (though it has lessened thanks to a meta game shift... A deck having UB still automatically makes it a better contender.)
Bowmasters definitely not that big of a problem though. It's a necessary evil to keep decks in check. That dude's coping.
i think that lots of banned cards are absolutly fine to unban. Rofellos, the staxy black one... (pretty sure that a lot more i dunno long time without watching the banlist).
And i think they are powerfull but not even close to be banworthy.
Thoracle, Dockside, Mana Crypt all being legal makes a mockery of the supposed high power and "unfun"ness for a lot of the banned cards.
Braids comes down from the command zone and eventually forces players to sacrifice lands. It 💯% needs to be banned.
@@TeamSprocketcards are not banned in commander based on power level. They are banned for creating unfun play patterns. Being "too good" doesn't make cards unfun unless you're just salty about being bad at the game.
@@majinvegeta6364 Thoracle certainly qualifies as an 'unfun play pattern'.
While it CAN be answered... it practically requires everyone to ALSO be playing blue (white has a handful of cards that might work).
You can counterspell it.. which is MOSTLY blue with a couple white options.
You can stifle the effect.. which is ALL blue.
You can force a draw... which is MOSTLY blue with a couple white options.
Or you can turn off ETBs which is mostly white and Torpor Orb.
Labman and Jace are completely fine as they need to remain on the field and removing permanents is something EVERY color can reasonably do.
Not very fun when answering it FORCES everyone into playing blue OR running anti-ETB stax pieces.
@zackkelley2940 1st, There are black and red counterspells. There aren't many, but they exist. Black can also force card draw. The RC thinks green is the strongest color (I disagree) in the format, so saying that Thoracle puts it at a disadvantage will only make them like it more.
2nd, Thoracle is ultimately just another two card combo. It doesn't needlessly prolong the game nor lock people out of playing. It simply ends the game. Neither card in said combo comes out of the command zone either, so you still have to draw them out of the 99 just like a zillion other ways to win on the spot.
You can argue that it's too efficient, only costing UU and B for Demonic Consultation, but that's not likely to move the RC's position on the matter. Ultimately, you need a means to draw, mill, or exile your entire library before Thoracle is even a viable win con. Self mill and exiling your deck carry the inherent risk that if your combo is interrupted, you've effectively lost the game. If you are able to draw your entire library, you're going to win anyway. If not with this combo, then another. Banning one card won't change that.
What it would do is limit if not eliminate an entire deck archetype, card draw tribal. That goes against two of the three goals in the format's Rules Philosophy. It stifles creativity by reducing the number of viable strategies in the format, and it guts format stability by not only forcing players to change their decks but radically shifting the existing meta in the process.
Look, man, I see what you're getting at here, and you have a skeleton of a decent argument, but as it stands, it has too much going against it to convince the RC to make any real changes. Keep working on it, though. Address the holes in your position, and maybe with a little time and effort, you'll eventually have something to present to a member of the CAG. Good luck 👍👍👍
BM are not invincible. Of course, there are options to remove it. But I have been in games with bowmasters more than I care to recall, and it usually always degenerate. And it's always hard to remove. I'd almost want Hullbreacher back at least it would stop the bow master damage.
When did you become a cEDH or EDH player? I thought you only cared about Modern.
While this certainly has associated problems of it’s own, if they won’t change things for just the competitive side of the format then we need a rules committee for just the competitive side of the format.
That "exists" but the major organaizer try and appeal to the majority, so they use the same official banlist.
The problem is a lot of cedh players also dont want that either
Commander is stale?????? What I had to stop working when I heard you repeat that WILDDDD post.
They were talking about cedh
@@Abby_Affchen that makes even less sense.
@@Svergara1 it's all fish decks and stax decks basically. With some niche decks once in awhile
CEDH is as diverse as can be now. You have a lot of variety of styles and indeed flavors of those styles. Sure it may be a Rhystic Study format but the card provides a lot of variety in game play available.
@@Abby_Affchen cannot be more wrong lol. Stax decks do not do well in cEDH and have not done well for a very long time. I go to quite a few tournaments, whether they be SCG Con, Locals, or youtuber sponsored events. I have seen 2 stax decks in close to 100 pods. why? because stax doesn't work right now. the metagame is definitely more grindy, and trending towards midrange, but that means that players need to adjust the decks they play to survive in that environment. your turbo naus deck may not be the same level of bullshittery when everyone is playing more conservatively because of threats like atraxa, engines like t&k, etc.
yes, every deck with blue will run fish and rhystic. they're stupidly good cards. cEDH is inherently a high power format to play commander, and it isn't possible to say that this doesn't happen in other formats as well. metagames exist because a ton of people play this game. if you don't want a metagame, you need bans all the time, which negatively impacts the playerbase.
This may only be my opinion, but I don’t think Cedh was ever supposed to even exist in the first place. I like Legacy, so I play Cedh. I don’t really like casual games of commander. I play to win. However that’s not what commander is designed to do. It’s designed to have “fun”. I don’t like “fun” I like winning. That being said, this is why I don’t complain about CEDH. I UNDERSTAND commander wasn’t designed with me in mind. Legacy was. and I can use commander cards in legacy so it’s super fun to me.
But I also think that since Cedh is such a popular thing, that maybe it needs to be its own format at this point. Separate it from regular commander. Idk just thinking out loud
Hot take (maybe): ban all two color partners
If rule zero actually worked there would be no need be no ban list.
Crazy to me anyone would suggest bowmaster over thorracle or dockside. But I also think not banning things completely defeats the purpose of the list. Flash shaped the entire format and I promise lists with no red playing clone effects just to copy OPPOSING docksides is warping. I just think it's silly to try and act like ban worthy cards aren't still printed/haven't been in the last 5 years.
The reason why Thoracle and Dockside are not quite wanted to be banned is because they ultimately help the health of the cEDH format. They're amazingly powerful, and they win the game if they resolve usually - but that extreme and instant reward allows entirely new decks and strategies to exist by using these powerful cards as their win line. It provides a seemingly unfair and a very high bar to clear to be competitive, but it ultimately creates a lot more potential than it removes - ex. sneaking in a clone of an opponents dockside/Thoracle is fun to do and not something that could have happened without them, thus people have options in using AND fighting them.
Bow masters is being looked at for a ban because it doesn't directly win on its own and acts as an active detriment to healthy experimentations. With it existing, instead of a fast-paced high-power standard, it forces anything with 1 toughness that doesn't have a crucial ETB to just be cut from the deck - as its never not going to die to bow masters. Just because we are competitive does not mean we think stuff like stax pieces are fun win conditions to go for - think of bow masters like a stax piece you have to worry about at all times thanks to everyone drawing a ton of cards that can immediately remove anything with 1 or even 2 toughness.
It existing makes playing green, the heavy 1-toughness mana dork color, near impossible. Whereas Thoracle and Dockside offer new opportunities for combos to win. Like with casual commander, the mindset is not about what's fair or more powerful, Thoracle and Dockside are stronger by nautical miles - the mindset is about what is fun and gives the most options.
@@Ddelsol47 Holy shit dude bad take, they do the polar opposite and actively make cEDH worse by their existence, dockside is hugely game warping and is super abused by every deck that runs it and normally just says "I win the game if I trigger", it executes the pod for playing out mana rocks like how everyone does, it does not just punishes the board but outright executes them, thassa's oracle + demonic consultation + tainted pact is the most efficient win con in the entire game and give people absolutely no reason to not ever run blue and black in a tournament setting. Dockside also completely invalidates land stax cards like blood moon that basically don't see any play thanks to dockside.
In no way does those two cards make the game better, Bowmasters on the other hand does as it's a stax piece and removal, keeps creatures in check and drawing in check as well.
@@voluntarism335 you think as you will. I never called your take bad, I just simply provided the logic behind why the cEDH community as I've seen calls the current meta "midrange hell". You're right these (Thoracle, Dockside) are strong and game warping, but these allow you to win the game. Bowmasters is game warping, yet doesn't and instead punishes creature heavy metas and decks. Both are game warping - some provide consistent ways to win, others actively slow the game down.
It's as if you just... didn't read literally anything I said.
@@Ddelsol47 I read everything you typed out and it's all stupid
@@voluntarism335 same
There are certain cards on the ban list that I think time has passed by, looking at you Prime Time. However the point of EDH being stale is wild. You cannot keep up with the amount of commanders they are releasing these days. I constantly have 5-10 decks being brewed while new commanders are being dropped. Dan needs to either switch up the power level they are playing at or play out of their comfort zone.
Prime time si doing disgunting enoguh things in modern, I'm against unbanning cards that have a home in other eternal formats, and about unbanning cards that don't.
@@W4llh4k Fair enough. Idk I find the things people are doing in edh far surpass what prime time would do.
Prime Time absolutely needs to be banned. Just like dockside extortionist, as soon as it hits the table the game is no longer "put your opponent's life points to 0" but "steal, flicker and copy prime time as much as possible" especially with lands as powerful as field of the dead and lands that enter as a copy of another land
@laytonjr6601 there are tons of creatures that when they hit the board the entire game centers around them. Prime time would be the 6th best version of a land searcher in my dedicated sultai lands deck. I'm not trying to down play prime times strength. However any arguments I have heard for it staying banned can be applied to multiple other cards and prime time would not even be the best land search ability in the format.
@@Itachi__Uchihayou couldn't be more wrong. Primeval Titan's strength isn't his ability to ramp, it's that he can search for ANY two lands per trigger and put them directly into play. Not only does this make cards like Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers even more powerful, but this turns utility lands into a toolbox of uncounterable / difficult to interact with ability suite. This can be removal, stax, combo pieces, and more that are all far more accessible with the inclusion of Primeval Titan. Not only does this fundamentally alter how decks are constructed, but this forces players to include more land removal in order to answer the many cards Primeval can cheat into play before he's removed. The RC wisely doesn't want to see any of those changes to the format. Prime Time 💯% needs to stay BANNED!
Not really any cards that need to be banned in edh (I would like a golos unbanning though but thats my take). I do think though that cedh deserves to be treated as a constructed format with the amount of players it has. If cedh was going to have a banlist probably rhystic, underworld breach and thoracle would be first to go. (Dockside isn't that bad, fight me about it /j). The only card I would legitimately want to ban in edh would be sol ring.
the solring ban implies banning all precons, that's the only catch
Sol Ring has been printed in every precon. I agree that it should be banned (as well as mana crypt and many other fast mana like jewel lotus) but they will never do it
Sounds like your meta plays a lot of bowmasters... I havent seen it in ages, not tons of tutors where I play and they certainly aren't wasting it on a bowmasters
SOOO WHAT ABOUT NADU BAN THE BIRD
while I do think the rules committee should take a more aggressive approach to the ban list, i think orcish bowmasters misses the mark. I think from a balance perspective EDH is pretty good (with only a few egregious exceptions), with the only issues coming from how cards change from 1v1 to 1 v 3. Orish bowmasters isnt great on its own, its great for the same reason hullbreacher is good. Wheel effects are plentiful and powerful since each opponent draws. I think if you wanted to "balance the format" , you might need to need to seriously consider axing all wheels. *however, rule 0 talk to your friends, yada yada
Bowmasters can kill creatures from player A when player B is drawing excessively and that's not a fun play patern
@@laytonjr6601 Yeah it's a damn shame when an entire deck folds to a 1/1 creature
I think they need to just get rid of the ban list. 27k cards and they chose to ban so few and then stop. 🤣
I just love people complaining about cards not getting ban in commander. Don't like Orcish Bowmaster? Run more single target removal. Problem solved. This is a format where you can play what you want. Yes there is a ban list, but it is for game breaking cards... well, there are some exceptions to that, but thats another topic entirely.
Its CEDH that stale not casual.
The fact dockside extortionist is still legal BAFFLES me.
It's in tens of thousands of decks and they don't want to deal with the blowback from people who paid top dollar for it. Same deal with the reserved list.
If they are not going to ban cards then don't havr a ban list and if they are going to ban cards do it more regularly.
Honestly, dont really care about banning anything extra because i play at a social table BUT unban mah boi prime time, i want to play with him 😢
Day 5 without a Mill Mothman List
Shame mothman is UB garbage
@@ammonaustin9081 I still want a deck tech to proxy a universe within commander
So much to unpack here. Unbanning cards right now is clearly pointless with no argument there, but everything else you threw at this Dan guy was questionable.
Format is definitely stale. Sheer number of cards doesnt change that. You could make the same argument about Modern's card pool size, all it takes is a handful of unaddressed cards to sour a format. Right now they print a lot of unplayable crap, everything gets pushed with a few set-selling cards each release, and each year the format gets a little faster, problem cards go unbanned, RC just dissuades players' concerns by insisting they keep stuff on a "watch list". Wash rinse repeat. New legends either arent worth playing, or are so good they invalidate swaths of older legends (as commander choices). Look at edhrec and youll see the numbers back up that assessment, as the top commanders in the list are either very new legends, or legends that were always at/near the top and will never go away. Few to no recent commanders are popular because they do fun different things; instead, new commanders are only getting popular because theyre pushed. This contributes heavily to the stale environment. And it's absurd how stale edh is right now, youd think with all the pandering wotc does to the edh player base that they'd at least make interesting exciting new ways to play. Honestly I think part of it is the excessive number of releases per year; it was easier to keep the format fresh when they had a whole year or so to make a single release of commander products stand out and entice deckbuilders. Commander products coming with each new release is sorely felt as most of the decks feel generic or just echo stuff thats already been made, but tweaked to either be stronger or re-worked to fit better against multiple opponents. Ironically, getting new cards almost every month is is NOT keeping things fresh. It's like that Spongebob episode when Spongebob's one single krabby patty is compared against the hundreds of krabby patties Neptune made.
And to point out some unfair arguments you made. Dan never said he only cared about winning, he never claimed he was a try-hard, he just has a genuine concern with how stale commander is. And it IS stale right now, and I say that as a guy who only plays casually. Will you accuse ME of only caring about winning? And going with the "just run removal" argument? I guess no creature ever needed to be banned in the history of magic, turns out we all collectively just forgot to play removal!
If nothing else banning thoracle would make cedh more interesting
Nah, it really wouldn’t at all. Make cedh not as fun to play tbh, banning the most popular and powerful wincon ain’t a great idea + nobody in cedh is asking for a ban
@@archdruidman3493 I mean I am, it may be a win con but assembling a two card combo to suddenly win the game isn’t what I’d call healthy for the format. Yes it can be interacted with, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is the lamest way for any game of magic to end. It’s similar to the draws that have been happening in pioneer because of Amalia combo
@@videogamandrew having a 2 card combo exist isn’t inherently unhealthy for the format. It’s when that 2 card combo is exclusively the combo being played & almost entirely forcing decks to be played in blue/black for that wombo combo or be stomped, and I’d argue neither is happening in cedh right now. Being “lame” shouldn’t justify a banning, even though thoracle isn’t.
@@videogamandrewBlue is the only color that can interact with Thoracle. Unlike the Jace that makes you win the game if you draw from an empty library, removing Thoracle in response to the trigger does nothing because 0 devotion is greater or equal to the 0 cards in library
@@laytonjr6601lol no,
mana tithe, angel grace, torpor orb, hushbringer, elesh Norn, withering boon, peer into the abyss, praetor grasp, opposition agent, wheel of fortune, all the red counterspells, endurance, noxious revival...
And most of these are cedh staples. cEDH as a format are well equipped to be dealing with thassa outside of blue
Cedh is so stale plz give us a change in this awful midrange meta 😭
Midrange thriving seems like a pretty good indicator of a healthy format....
@@elahem6940 I don’t see how you can enjoy rhystic hell
@@elahem6940 Dockside causes artifacts decks and enchantment decks to be borderline unplayable. Whole thassa Oracle pushes a lot of other combos out of the format
I love cEDH rn
@Abby_Affchen
I dont think Thoracle pushes a lot of other combos out of the format. If youre in blue and black you’re playing that but your deck will be weak if thats all you rely on. Theres dozens of other great wincons and easy two card combos. I think the cedh meta is in a good place rn.
Honestly it sounds like the complaints are cEDH targetted, and it thats the case, just get cEDH its own banlist? Make everyone happy.
Dan be in here like I want cards like hullbreacher and karakas unbanned bc stale 🤦
“In high power you’re playing your expropriates” tell me don’t know anything about cEDH, without telling me you don’t know anything about cEDH.
"high-power" and cEDH are not the same, my example of "high-power" is heartless hitedsugu, wins turns 5-8. My Thrasios/Vial- smasher win turns 1-4.
Yeah you’re right about that, I should have said cEDH not high power. I was referring to him specifically saying in cEDH people play expropriate.
Also I’d add in my experience games don’t often end before turn 4 in cEDH. I have a Tayam and a Tivit deck. Neither are great at winning early but both are good at slowing games down and winning later than turn 4.
Unban Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
Golos is bad for the format because he erodes the color pie AND protects himself from removal.
CEDH is not a real format.
There are regularly 100 player tournaments that people travel to, just to play cEDH. Look at edhtop16 if you dont believe me.
By that logic you could argue that Vintage is not a real format since there arent as many Vintage tournaments. There are also Modo ques of cEDH, so wotcy kinda admits its a real thing.
The more EDH grows as a format, bigger cEDH gets aswell.
Unban everything! except ante, dexterity, and prophet of kruphix.
I'd unban Prophet too. It paid unfairly for the sins of slow players.
But yes, gimme that Fastbond!
@@B1gLupu prophet didn't pay the price for slow players, if you are in a pod of 4 prophet players, its super easy to lose track of whose turn it is. it happend at least once a night at my lgs.
@@Queuexdodge if you dont know who's turn it is, you are just kinda bad
@@B1gLupu you will lose track, I can guarantee it.
@@Queuexdodge I have played during PoK meta, and that wasnt ever a problem for us
The format isn't stale. They're just bad.
Feels like he plays against the same 3 players with the same decks over and over. 😂
They literally said they don’t ban or unban to shake up. W overprinting how can it be stale? Just find another pod if your pod is stale.
Edh players are probably the worst part of the format
In cEdh you’re playing expropriate aye? I guess I’ve been doing it wrong for years.
Just maybe get a tiny bit of Ed in cEdh cause you do kinda talk about it.
Just my advice 🤷♂️
And feel free to not play expropriate… you’ll be fine 😉
No man.. really really.. Orcish BowMasters trashed a bunch of decks that used to be very good beginners decks. You weren’t winning 25% w Mono green, say: Marwyn or Selvala even pre BowMasters but now they’ve gone from maybe 17% decks to like 8% decks and you’re just not gonna do that. It sux. These are the least expensive decks for non proxy events and OBM throttled them.
Yeah you can play answers to bowmasters and everyone does.. they play phantasmal image to copy it and kill the original and phyrexian metamorph etc and that’s the true crux of the problem. The best answer to OBM is to play another OBM. If that’s not toxic then I honestly don’t know what toxic would be.
Wizards hates poor people. So just make the dorks neigh unplayable w one printing that goes into 100% of black decks and about 60% of the decks in cEdh have black color ID
BowMasters are everywhere
Bowmasters killing all your mana dorks in mono green because the blue player decided to play Rhystic Study turn 1 is magic as Andrew Garfield intended.
Bowmasters and The One Ring possibly never getting a reprint (because they're from Universe Beyond) is the scariest part: their price will only grow
Just ban bowmasters and thoracle. It isn't that difficult.
But why?
For cedh? Those cards are fine in cedh
For casual? If they are a problem in your casual pod then just stop playing them
@@Djewell314 That requires talking to other people. We all know how socially stunted a lot of MTG players are....
@@Djewell314 most CEDH pods are in tournaments. So you can't rule 0 it out. And yes those cards are issues. Thoracle makes other combos basically unplayable. Dockside pushes artifact decks and enchantment decks out the format. Bowmasters I can deal with.
If those cards are banned it doesn't hurt casuals at all. But it helps CEDH. You can rule 0 them in casual if they do get banned.
I hope that clears it up
And dockside
@davidjewell1856 I personally find rule 0 exhausting. Furthermore, most of the time, it ends up being unproductive because someone at the table will still get salty anyway. The amount of power that's put into those cards is not only strong enough to warp formats like CEDH, but to create unhealthy play environments outside of that.
In my mind, thoracle falls into a similar argument as things like paradox engine and protean hulk - they aren't used honestly.
Bowmasters punishes card draw, one of the pillars of what makes commander games run. Yes, there's the argument of "just remove/counter it." However, it's a silly argument, as you could apply that to nearly every card on the ban list and have it be unbanned tomorrow. When bowmasters resolves, you either A) Answer it immediately and potentially still kills a 1 toughness creature, or B) It stays on board for at minimum one turn cycle and that player is now archenemy.
Lastly, let's be honest. We all know cards like dockside, thoracle and bowmasters don't belong at anything other than high power and CEDH tables. I'm the combo player in most pods where I win between turns 6-8 (depending on the deck and pod), so I'm even more on the high power side. However, to discuss these individual cards on top of everything else that goes into rule 0 discussions is, like I said before, exhausting.
The format is not stale your pod is stale
Dan's a clown on this to me. Commander's only stale when you shove the same 30 staples(exaggerating a bit but the point stands) in each and every deck
This just further confirms that CEDH is a homeless format. I know that Cedh players are afraid of not being included in the EDH sphere, but as time goes by, it seems necessary for CEDH to break apart.
I agree and disagree with this respectfully, the RC/CAG have made steps in the past to acknowledge and validate cEDH within the realms of regular EDH and to say they've been willing to make a change due to that side of the format with the Flash ban for example but outside of that yeah, I have to agree since then cEDH has mostly gone ignored despite the stagnation of it which has also bled down into casual with the prominence of Dockside/Thassa's/etc.
Cedh discourse is getting absolutely ridiculous. They don’t want their own format but they want absolute control over the current one.
I think everyone does this not just cEDH players
commander is probably the least stale format lmao
If you keep encountering the same problem in this game, you keep making the same mistake.
Just ban dockside and thassas Oracle. Dockside pushes artifact decks and enchantment decks out of CEDH. While Thassa's Oracle is the only combo you can basically play. Even breach first line is to go into Oracle.
Rule 0 only applies to casual Edh. Why should a format be promoted for tournaments play more and more and only have a banlist for casuals? Rule zero doesn't work in tournaments.
But if you aren't banning stuff at all than don't promote tournament play than. I can't rule zero a turn 0 win with Thassa's Oracle at a tournament so
T1 Bans:
Thoracle, Dockside, Rhystic study
T2 Bans:
Mana crypt, The One Ring, Drannith Magistrate
T3 Bans:
Bowmaster, Serra Ascendant
Magistrate is a counter to broken mechanics like Cascade and Discover, it prevents impulse draw and some graveyard recursion. As a creature every single deck should be able to remove it
OP doesn't understand the difference between the EDH banlist and other formats'.
People like to impulsively say something should be banned without ever looking at what it’s banning would do. This might be a hot take but the edh ban list is amazing rn
My group banned all reserve list cards because of accessibility issues and so we don't start "over proxying" in addition to the base rules.
People take a casual format too seriously.
Rule 0 just isn't something for an official game to have. If the philosophy is that banning cards just to shake up or fix a format is bad, then unban everything and say it is a rule 0 thing. If those are cards that do need to stay out of the format, then surely they are not the only ones. Rule 0 works for youtube videos and actual kitchen table magic. I play at events at my LGS exclusively because that is all that is available to me. While I have a good group and we rule 0 a few things out, that took years to facilitate, and it isn't perfect, but it is fun at least. No one wants to go to a MagicCon and then spend 3 hours getting Thoracle'd or Bowmaster'd, or whatever other unfun thing. You could rule 0 there, but then after the game and you sit down with a different pod, you are redoing it all over again.
TLDR: Allow the Rule 0 for actual kitchen table magic, and make a banlist for random groups and tournament play. Disclaimer the bans as such it if you gotta
Not that I'm that into commander.
But today I put back together my old deck.
Gideon tribal, btw.
I have a Gideon tribal subtheme in my Mageta the Lion deck
As someone who plays casual and competitive edh. I would say it could go both ways. I believe personally all cards on the ban list deserve their place there like the ever mentioned prime time. If anything I believe they should maybe ban more often, but I understand that they do not ban something unless the social aspect of commander is breached and I respect that. If anything I could maybe make an argument for the banning of the one ring, but I just see it as the colorless rhystic study.
I'm the opposite wave length, the banlist is dusty and as unmantained as the decks they want to protect. We need mor unbans, which dont invalidate, but create new deck ideas. Biorythm has benn banned for so long it is a joke to say it's worthy of being banned, same for sway the stars, and coalition victory. If any of those cards pubstomp as the notes say, someone is doing that, but with thoracle and faster.