Joe's been intaking so much test and GH over the years that his view on PED use in MMA & sports in general is highly skewed, he's given natty passes to certain guys on his podcast that would cause natural disasters if they ever decided to pee in the sea
If I was 18 y/o and someone said "inject this hormone and take this pill to go the olympics" 99/100 times I would do it. Can't blame the athletes, it starts with the people providing the drugs and protocol.
Same. Tell a young man he can have glory all he has to do is take a lil something. He’ll take it. They wake up early, train and eat like they’re machines. Their entire life revolves around lifting. Of course they’ll take something that makes them better at it.
I trained with a guy who had fled from a middle eastern country where he was on the national weightlifting team. He said every day he walked into the coach's office and they gave him a cup full of pills and said "swallow this" and he wasn't even allowed to ask what it was.
This is (thank effing god) NOT a reaction video my friend. It’s a delightfully well put together and detailed analysis. Reaction videos are the death of CZcams 😂
If doping isn't systematically used in the US, the only reason is because it's a fringe sport (in the US) with not enough money to sustain such a system.
Agreed. NFL, NHL, NBA, CrossFit to start with. Closed leagues, where doping is monitored but results are withheld by the governing bodies of the aforementioned.
@@TheRookyMarky Their is no Systematic doping scheme in place. It's individuals making the choice not the entire league or the Government mandate to win at all costs
With that logic at some point a systematic doping protocol will be found for track and field, swimming, gymnastics, and basketball since their very popular in the US.
Mat is lucky to have fans like you creating supportive content to qualify his comments. I try to remain open minded so I can hear this sort of information and see a more clear view. I also am thankful for the specific information you shared I have not seen that before. I will use it as I try to continue creating honest fiction around the subject. Thanks Zach, keep it up- I am sure your dad is proud!
I think Mat Fraser gets a lot of shit just cuz he does CrossFit. Granted I am not a person super familiar with Olympic lifting but his Olympic lifts are pretty beautiful and you do have to respect his accomplishments IMO.
It’s naive to say that in the US you only have individual rogue cases that go out on their own and dope. Out of context you have the big money sports in the US NFL and Baseball being the mains, both to this day have systemic PED plans, you could even throw WWE in there. They literally are all juiced, no questions. So the system is there, USADA do test these athletes, and for the most part we don’t hear of too many positive cases. So why is it so hard to think that Olympic sport athletes in the US aren’t in similar systems. , and able to pass USADA tests that Brock Lesnar (MMA) and the likes have being passing for years 💴 💴💴
How much money do you think is in weightlifting in the us? It’s more fringe than powerlifting. There just isn’t the funding or resources to do it. The nfl, wwe, etc doesn’t use good testing protocols. What would work to get around those tests wouldn’t work against WADA, comparing those tests to wada is like comparing a 2nd grade math test to trigonometry tests. There isn’t enough funding or resources for individuals or even American weightlifting as a whole to figure out ways to cheat the system effectively consistently
NFL, major league baseball and WWE (and the NBA and NHL as long as you're at it) don't use USADA or the USADA named-athlete random testing system. There's big money there, so that's a risk they're not going to take. The use of USADA (or, perhaps, a USADA-based system) in testing MMA athletes was not in place for most of Lesnar's career there; since it's been put in place, there's been quite a few athletes who have notably "downsized". That being said, pretty sure that there's enough money in MMA for some of the folks to get sophisticated enough to plan-around things. Now, as far as the Olympics and US athletes go. . . perhaps T&F athletes (and maybe a swimmer or two) can acquire the funds to get some medical advice and monitoring to dodge random drug tests but, in the post-2012 era, doing that is getting harder with more sensitive assays and more public pressure. However, US T&F athletes definitely were "excellent" -- but, notably, FAILED -- cheats in the 2000-2012 time frame, so perhaps they could do it again. But weightlifting in the US??? Where are they getting the money to do this sort of stuff and why the hell would they do it? Win some T&F events and an Olympic gold in T&F and there is some money to be made (same with swimming), but what the FFFF is motivating an weightlifter to put in some time with anabolics? It definitely could just be the desire to win, and it HAS been for some of the mid-level US lifters (and even 1-2 elite lifters); but clearly that wasn't enough to get them to invest the money required to not get caught.
Systemic doping is less prevalent in the US and many other first world countries. In sports overall, individual doping is more prevalent in the US than all comparable countries. This may have to do with accessability of substances, culture, and other factors. Is there a reason to believe that US weightlifting is an outlier in US sports, and dope relatively less? Or is the US the dirtiest among first world countries, as in other sports?
I'll say this, Matt is 100% on drugs while competing at the crossfit games, and if people doubt this then all they need to take a look at is the fact that he had a second puberty where he gained more size and strength then he did during his first puberty. So I don't really respect his opinion on this given that he is a fake natty, and yes, so are most of the others he competes against but the problem here is "most" and the fact that crossfit is supposed to be a tested sport.
But can't all these statements for USA being clean at top level be also applied to the chinese weightlifting team? Which I'm sure you've implied several times are not clean. The top athletes haven't been caught, those who have competed and been caught are up and coming and are discarded. The lifters don't have sudden jumps(that we know) in performance and have a long history of meets.
I don't know the full context of Chinese drug use but I do know that China is a country that is literally enslaving citizens as we speak for the purpose of "bettering" their family country. They also forced millions of babies to be murdered or into orphanages for their one child policy. It's not a stretch to think they would dope their athletes
@@mustang8206 I don't know where you got that second statement from. You could have multiple children. You just had to pay a fine. And most small villages and towns weren't even heavily enforced with the policy. I don't see how you could reach that conclusion unless you've got a mediaeval view on abortion.
@@theclasssy3320 You must not have been watching the news! China kills and enslaves its citizen so the US needs to kill and enslave them to save them from the CCP. The world needs to sanction them back to medieval times because they are so bad to their citizens. Woke up, man!
@@theclasssy3320 First off you need to do better research. Second off I don't have a "medieval definition of abortion" I have a factual definition of abortion. Even someone who has a barbaric definition of abortion like you can surely see the issues of forced abortion
exactly. They literally could have an athlete test positive, not say anything about it, and we'd never know since all their testing is internal. Really brings into question the honesty of the sport, especially when almost all of the failed tests are lower popularity athletes
@@ShellSide I actually think they send all samples to a “WADA” testing facility according to their anti-doping policy, but so does the Union Cycliste Internationale and Lance Armstrong never popped positive on a test. So there’s obviously ways to cheat.
@@JoeyAme they use the WADA labs for testing but the collection is done through a contract with Drug Free Sport who only report information back to them and have no public reporting like USADA.
@@ShellSide yeah that makes sense after hearing Matt talk about getting a 24hr notice prior to them collecting a sample. Defiantly feel there’s some shenanigans going on. It would be devastating to CF if the “fittest” bodies were actually a result of PED and not the CF way of life.
@@JoeyAme its just the paleo diet man I swear! All of our ancestors used to look like that before they invented processed foods lol but yes, I follow Mattie Rogers on instagram and USADA shows up all the time unannounced. I imagine that there are lots of drug protocols or micro-dosing protocols you could enact without worrying about failing a test if you always knew you had 24 hours notice
You don't need to be a sport/medical expert for PED to know that all elite athletes from all over the world using steroids. Track and field athletes, weight lifters, elite competitors in cycling, swimming, triathlon etc. All you need to conclude that is common sense. Statement that American athletes don't use roids is nave if some kid said that. But sad by an elite sportsman it is just cynicism.
I’m glad you made the statement about the out of state testing pool. It’s crazy how many people don’t even know about it and think everyone just “stops so it’s out of their system in time”
Great video as always Zack. One thought I had is that I wondered if the evidence of the governing body sanctioning lower-tier lifters ("nobodies") who will never compete on an elite stage, is just performative to demonstrate that they are "tough on drugs and doping." We see this all the time in NCAA collegiate sports, where lower level programs get hammered with severe sanctions for minor offenses, while the most elite programs in their respective sports consistently evade policing. Just a thought I had while watching. Thanks for the content.
Zach, how dare you be reasonable and measured. This is the internet, dammit. We want screaming, sensationalism, and black-and-white thinking, summed up in short snappy comments that we can like and comment "lol" to.
I think part of the problem here is the garbled thesis and tone. Mat (in context) states that the US team (oly lifts specifically) are clean. I think a lot of this would have been avoided if he had just said "cleaner" instead of making a defintive statement. Then when it comes to your analysis, your arguement for the vast majority of the video is a 10+ min "what about-ism". The fact that the Russian teams have a well-developed and comprehensive drug protocol for their athletes is almost entirely irrelevant to the claim that was made. You talk about grey areas a lot in the video but regardless of this I felt you failed in your tone, which was overly dismissive to the idea that effective protocols exist in the US in spite of USADA/WADA. We have extremely strong anecdotely evidence that WADA and its affiliates are either not very good at catching any group with even modest sophisication or that they are sometimes complicit in covering up cheating.
Calm down English major. And no this isn't "what about-ism" his point is that the US Olympic Weightlifting team is cleaner than other countries. And he supports this claim by showing how rampant steroid use is on other teams but NOT on the American team
Fraser’s fake ignorance of PEDs is so annoying and I wish they just wouldn’t talk about it. The fact they obviously can’t say they’re using just makes it pointless to bring up. America probably knows they won’t win golds in weightlifting so the doping is far less prevalent compared to athletics, swimming gymnastics etc. Zack you can’t go by who has been caught. The US would have the most advanced ways to beat tests, and the most cash.
but like you said there's no cash in weightlifting for them, cause they're not winning. And there's no big system to support them and do this for them either like in other sports. Fraser talking about this is laughable definitely. What *is* curious, is that the US people are still doing ok, especially the women are doing well. And that seems really suspicious if they're clean.
Zack you should do a reaction to Clarence’s most recent video on his antidoping views since it seems you both have different opinions on it and it would be interesting to see what you would say
Im a lifter from Albania and the doping ishue is everywhere its a big problem that should be regulated beacuse is making the image of weightlifing look very bad
i love how people can't fathom the difference between "some of our athletes choose to cheat" and "the government condones cheating, circumvents testing for you to cheat, and literally gives you shit to cheat with that you have to use to be allowed to compete" are even close to the same thing
Zack, you said in the end that PED is cheating. Do you mean it in a way like towards current rules of federation or in overall? Because why not just let them use drugs? Overdose of ANYTHING (food, excercise,working) is lethal.
My coach, former Czechoslovakian national lifter, who's job was to train eat and sleep, weighting 90kg and told me he was on "chemical support" known and unknown substances (he claims the tested a new drug on them) snatched 155 CaJ 190 and cleaned 200kg as his pb. So you need a bit more then a good program a lot of food and sleep with drugs to help you out to be at the top
This is awesome Zack. Must have taken ages to put this together. Would love to see this expand to a whole series into controversial topics in weightlifting. Keep up the great work
3:31 I has used dianabol in my past...a light cicle, im was16 years old,but dianabol was amazing unbelievable boost of strong,in only 4 days improve 18 kg of bench press,i take dianabol in tablets, i remember that i has first work out i used my 90 kg in bench press ,Thursday return at gym and try 90kg and was very light ,try 100kg and i note that i could increase other KG ,at end i put 108 kg and i do my 3x8...unfortunately some day after i has a bylateral inflammation on forearms/elbow brachioladialis , extensor radialis and epicondyle humeral...
i remember frazer saying one day, anyone saying we take steroids, are making excuses for their bad performances,lol, so my question is, how does someone that finishes down the field,ie 3 4 5th etc get caught drug cheating, what does that say about the winner, ie frazer ?
Zack, I know what you're saying (well done for the video btw) and I totally agree that the Easter block countries have abused drugs more than anyone else. BUT you can't say USA isn't as bad as other countries simply because they haven't been exposed just yet, similar to China. If it wasn't for the film 'Icarus' (which is an American film), and the actual events they speak of in it, we never would've learned about Russia's dirty methods. But the thing is who would even attempt to put a powerful country like the US in such a position, especially, since no other country would even try to make an 'American Icarus' film. Also, CJ Cummins, for example, is strong AF for someone of his age and for someone who power jerks. Don't you think there's a good chance he might be on stuff? To sum up, what I'm trying to say is that any country would try to cheat and win as it would sit well with their media.
Thing is, most us lifters have squat numbers really close to russians or the chinese, some even surpassing them by far. Yet they get demolished in snatch and clean&jerk. How do you respond to this? If you can, that is.
Btw I'm not saying your point isn't valid. The us doesn't have national training camps or coaches to begin with. Everyone lifts at his own, private gym. There isn't a national team, per se, so it is harder to make mass doping a thing.
I dont think that has much to do with doping, just programming. They only need to be able to squat what they want to clean. Any more strength work is a waste of resources and extra fatigue. It's the same reason these guys dont have very big deadlifts relatively speaking (around ~320kg) they could probably pull waaay more but they dont need to if they're already making all their pulls in the clean.
The argument is that the US is MORE clean. We have no known state-mandated doping like that of the Russian and Bulgarian teams. If we have a positive test, it seems to be on an individual and not as the training team as a whole rather than that of the soviets/ modern Russians/ Bulgarians/ or any other country that has a proven history of mandated doping.
Great video! Sad to see people doesn’t realise he is talking specifically about weightlifting and even more so specifically to his own person experience.
There is no “eastern block”, the cold war has been over for a while and the ussr has fallen a long time ago. Those are separated countries and should be considered accordingly. It’s not “usa 5 popped, eastern block 20” it’s “usa 5, Poland 2, Ukraine 3,...”. Makes no sense to group up different countries and increase the total number just because they are similar and share a past. The USA pops are not counted together with the UK’s, so every nation should be treated just as a single nation. This doesn’t make your point invalid. Doping is more common elsewhere maybe (or just badly hidden) but still elsewhere are different countries
So true about Matt’s comments on JRE. People are taking it out of context and making absolute statements as opposed to understanding the minutiae of doping in sport and the context in the world of weightlifting.
I don't see what people are taking out of context. What he said is very clear and the inference is made that he's clean, the US is clean and everyone else isn't. Rogan then replied with - ""Isn't that fucked up, that statement you just said, but I know it to be true. When you said the USA is one of the few countries that competes clean. It's actually true and so strange." It's pretty clear what he is saying right there , there is no charitable reading off that that can water it down to something less ridiculous
Brilliant stuff, Zack. This really puts this whole debate into perspective for me. It's clear now that people in the know have more than enough information to judge the landscape of international doping fairly and see the differences between countries while the rest of us are in the dark, but the information is there and people like you are starting to get it out so we have a better understanding of the reality of a sport which has for decades remained mysterious in many ways. Thanks.
The US offers one of the most elite sports systems on the planet. They also have very stringent anti-doping programs. But it gets really awkward when every Olympics they top the medal board. I mean if all these smaller countries have state sponsored doping mechanisms why are they struggling in the medals tally. I know there's almost no country in the world to match the US's athelete pipeline. So many sports career potential is available in the US where most countries have a smaller number of choices. But it's still insane to me that the US, Russia and China nearly always top the medals tally at every Olympics. How are they beating state sponsored doping?
As you said, USA (Russia and China too) being one of the Most Elite on the planet is largely due to their status as a world power. They have the funds and facilities to pump out elite athletes with very little contradictory lifestyle elements, whereas less affluent countries do not enjoy this luxury so much. These lesser countries then support 'state doping' out of necessity to compete. The state wants medals and the Athlete cannot afford the whole system by themselves. This spreads the blame across the Athlete and the State if caught, but also allows the 'State' to enhance, experiment etc without the Athletes consent/direct control. (See Bulgaria, more extreme results) In USA, the Individual athlete is in a position of lifestyle to perform the system by themselves. The state has no need to interfere as the athlete is pushed to a high level by the system and is able to afford the 'supplementation' at their own expense (This might be coach/athlete/team etc vs solo athlete but still vs State). This places a barrier between the State and the Individual (Interestingly a founding theme of USA) if blame comes knocking. This then creates a system of capitalism across the whole Athletic industry, where individuals can, due to their affluent lifestyles pick and choose what and where, even if athletics are worth pursuing for them. This unfortunately puts the efficacy of the Doping System at the hands of the Athlete (or whichever smaller unit is responsible). You can see in USA weightlifting, as mentioned in the video, USA coaches grasp for information from other people in these fields, there is no systemic overarching library to source methods from, whereas in the 'State Systems' (Just look at the Russian documentation across Weightlifting) there are researched and established methods, removing requirements of time and energy to learn and experiment and fail tests from the individual athlete. Yes, everybody dopes. Some countries have better systems for it than others, some countries have better systems for other Athlete producing aspects. From the results we can deduce that necessity and organized doping might produce better results than ability and luxury alone. My thoughts, anyway.
I dont think that you can compare the usa to russia and i think matts Statement is somehow right. In the usa its not systemical doping its maybe one group of athletes or just one person that does it. in comparison russia has had a doping system where al lot of athletes were doped and thats why the country is generally suspicios. Im from germany and we had an very comperabel problem in east germany where kids at the age of 16 where doped and i think thats why now germany has had just so few examples of doping in recent times because we fear our own past. For me i think thats a improvement.
2:26 Furosemide, Stanozolol, etc. And then, at the bottom of the list, Caffeine lol. As a fellow coffee addict, this is an outrage. Courier Mail: The caffeine test was shown to be inaccurate - what do you reckon was the problem? Alex Watson: The IOC had been led to believe the test by professor Manfred Donike was accurate but they dropped it because they realised that to make a determination of someone’s caffeine use from that test was completely flawed. The whole point was to stop people taking it in massive doses but they told us before we left at a team meeting that we cannot fail the caffeine test by taking caffeine in normal form via chocolate, coke or caffeine. Courier Mail: So how much did you have? Alex Watson: We estimated I had over the course of the 12 hours fencing event I had 10 to 12 cups of coffee. I just look at it I would rather it had not have happened. I would have liked to have completed the competition because I was having a good tournament and won the showjumping. The ridiculous thing was we were getting the coffee from open hospitality booths at the fencing venue. Richard Phelps the Bortish athlete gave a statement saying he drank considerably more coffee on the day of the fencing and his level was five times lower than mine. The whole thing was a flawed test. It was urine testing not blood. Dude was up to win a medal, but was pulled out mid-competition.
@@arvidpetersson2252 Not really. Modern testing will make it if anything at least harder to get away with things. So even if people aren't clean, it's not like they can go full blast.
I'm fairly sure that top level Strongman is pretty wink wink nudge nudge, based on some comments by the competitors about testing. It's not Olympic weightlifting but if you're looking for huge guys doing crazy, inhuman stuff, it's probably what you're looking for.
A guy that talks about being clean isn't clean. Matt when he started was literally nothing...no natural anything. But some how with a whole lot of kipping pullups and kettlebell swings he got to this level.
East Germany was the most institutional and structured drug use in track and field. They also spent an insane amount of money just for developing and training throughout their whole country.
At Least you can quantify that with the insane results they got by medal count compared to country size. If we go by that measurement the US is no were close to clean...
Excellent video about a subject that people are EXTREMELY prickly about. There is rightfully no attempt here to discredit the talent and hard work of any individual lifters, but to willfully ignore a verifiable systemic difference between the approaches of different nations is doing a disservice to the integrity of the sport across the board
As an Aussie, I think Dean Lukin in 1984 is a good example of the systemic nature of this. Look at the lifts that won gold in the super heavyweights in 1980 and then in 1988 and compare to Dean’s lifts in 84. Huge difference.
P.S. In and of years 90' a Journalist went a some College in California in L.A. and ask on many guys that practiced sports this question: If it exited a drug that if you take in 3 months you become the best famous and rich Athletes on the Planet ,but after 3 years this drug kill you at 100%, witch are your choice?You take or not?Well in almost 80% of answer guys say yes! Now ,this was only a questions not has nothing on scientific or statistic, fortunately dont exist a drug like this, and answers on guys most probably was make without reflect much...but in every case is a interesting for understand a young guy...
Hi Zack please don't be naive - everyone at a high level is on gear. Do you really think that there are some naturals that can out compete those that are juicing hard? Of course not. Yes they are the best of the best genetically, and they all take gear, which evens the playing field. There is no (zero) way that you can compete on a similar playing field and be natural. It is ridiculous when people think that eg one person that medalled cheated and the rest were natural - inches within the same time/score. Taking PEDs when you have good genetics gives you a DRASTIC advantage. If everyone was natural then you'd have random people performing hugely above everyone (the rare cheaters)
I’m a pharmacist and HOLY SHIT!!!! Throw out sex, age, natural ability...the fact these people have functioning livers, no blood clots or kidney issues are amazing. Starting elite athletes around 15 or younger? Instantly closes the growth plates in their bones stunting their height permanently. Yes the athlete would cycle on and off before a competition but when would they start again? How many competitions in a year could they participate in without a noticeable decline in strength or psyche? Many forget once one is off cycle the weight you were throwing around 3 weeks ago now you’re struggling with gets in your head....(see Sha’carri Richardson’s dead last performance at Prefontaine this year). She was mouthing off because she quit with 30 meters left knowing she was not in the right headspace after seeing everyone in front of her. Gear makes you feel invincible. Tapering off incorrectly makes you feel soft, weak and slow, maybe emotional.
Thats honestly sad about the tatiana kashirina case. No human should be messing with their hormones during puberty, and having basically state sponsored hormone use is very detrimental to her health. I bet she will have future liver and kidney problems, as well as increased insulin resistance and possibly even diabetes, as the diet of a super heavyweight isnt exactly blood sugar friendly
"undercover reporters went to Gatlin’s training camp in Florida. Here the athlete’s coach and athletics agent offered to supply and administer testosterone and growth hormone. The reporters posed as production company employers looking for substances to help an actor get into shape.They reportedly recorded Gatlin’s coach, the former Olympic gold medalist Dennis Mitchell, and the agent, Robert Wagner, claiming doping in athletics was still widespread and that doping tests proving the use of any banned substances could be avoided." Say Hello to the reality Mat 😂
these things are commercially driven in the us while in European and Asian countries they are not, especially back in the days. Other countries demand more gold medals regardless of the popularity of the sport to gain international fame or to simply " beat USA" in the cold war background. That is why we see doping occurs more in the commercially popular events such as tennis, football, swimming, tracks in the US, because in here, powerlifting and body building are way more popular than weightlifting(and have way more doping problems). Thus it is less economically beneficial to dope in weightlifting for Americans. That's why athletes like Lochte gets handed most advanced pills made by top labs and get on the "asthma list" while Mat Fraser would have to beg and pay millions to get(not saying he would have doped if he had the access).
Great video man. I'm so sick of the circle jerk of "EVERY PRO ATHLETE IS ROIDED OUT OF THEIR MINDS" that seems to be so widely accepted these days. This is a breath of fresh air.
Just make a psuedo open league where ped are legal but only the most dangerous drugs are banned and the lifters can sign waivers and such acknowledging they're aware of and educated on what they're taking and let the chips fall where they may
The thing is, with many modern PEDs it is very, very hard to detect them, and with a state program it would be very easy to control and regulate use by medical professionals to avoid detection and maximize results. Icarus showed exactly how complex this could be, and I don't think Russia have stopped I just think they improved. Now I don't want to state "everyone is on steroids" because honestly, outside of a few key examples, we don't have evidence. But I'm a scientist by profession, I work on observation and reason. Looking at top tier echelons of any sport you have a wide variety of athletes, but they are all gifted in terms of their athletic potential, they have to be. In terms of genetic potential (god I hate the way the fitness community uses the term "genetics") most of these people are similar, they have a minor advantage over one another. So it is very odd to me when you have people giving others who are equally talented, but also on PEDs, a run for their money. If an athlete is at the same skill level, but should have a strength and speed advantage over any natural athlete, if an athlete gives them a hard competition, logic dictates that athlete is also enhanced. This is basically what Zack is saying at times (I think), but in a much more in depth with far more evidence and thought to it. This is a long comment already, but I would like to make a final point. (Congratulations if you made it this far). Concerning professional sports, there is so much riding on the line that the vast majority of athletes will take any advantage. When it comes to the olympics national pride is on the line, I highly doubt any nation is against using any means to win, especially the superpowers. Modern PEDs are becoming INSANE in the degree of their impact on athletic ability and on their undetectability (just listen to the top doctors at USADA talking about this). You don't even have to be on them at that time, many PEDs have a permanent impact on physiology, though to a far lesser degree than continuous use. So these athletes might be enhanced, but not currently using. There are so many possibilities. I sincerely think we should just call it quits, get over the ridiculous morality involved, and legalize them in sport. Most professional athletes at a high level have likely been exposed to PEDs, maybe they don't take them, but much of the elite does in virtually any sport. They enhance strength, speed, recovery time, and you literally cannot compete as an unenhanced athlete unless you are in a primarily skill based sport, and even then the advantage is undeniable.
Hey zack. Do you think that a person representing a country, which culture is based on results, in the olympics is not “heavily suggested” to use drugs?
Guys and Girls remember the First Important Commandment in Sport(Olympic Games & other Professional Sport) "Nobody real clean Athletes can win VS doped Athletes" is impossible that a professional and doped athletes lost vs a real clean athletes,is like a simple math "rules" 1+1= 2 ! Now i want talk on "Second Important Commandment" on Professional Sportsmen, W.A.D.A. is not one step behind drugs systems, but two step behind,and now a "clean" example on this second rules: Tyson Gay(amazing talent & doped athletes) has lost VS Usain Bolt(they has passed all antidrug test) ,and if the first and second rules are right, how is possible that real not doped athletes has beat a doped athletes(Tyson Guy & others Athletes)? The answer is easy, is IMPOSSIBLE and then Usain Bolt not was real clean. In 2006 before Olympic Games on 2008 in Beijing a famous Scientific Magazine "Science" spoke on new Era of the doping the GENETIC or GENE DOPING, impossible to find with common antidrug test blood/urine ,and W.A.D.A. in 2008 not has the possibility to discover this type of doping,even today is enormous difficult and expensive find who have used this system of doping!
Posting my response today. Thanks for the shoutout man.
zack summoned the delts
Love your content man, keep up the good work 💪🏽
ALGOOOOOOO
Sweet man thank you!
C O N S U M E
Joe's been intaking so much test and GH over the years that his view on PED use in MMA & sports in general is highly skewed, he's given natty passes to certain guys on his podcast that would cause natural disasters if they ever decided to pee in the sea
literally called the rock natty. 280lbs at 50 years old, shredded, just chicken and broccoli
@@craigsbenedict Not to mention the fact that he's WAY bigger than he was at 25 lmao
Joe just agrees with whoever shows up on his show.
@@craigsbenedict I've heard Joe say multiple times that the Rock is probably using. Idk what you're referring to
Don't forget the laughable schilling Rogan did for jon Jones during the "picogram" debacle
Who needs steroids when you’ve got the chaos / anti-chaos training methodology
reverse movement technology was given to us by the machine elves
i release hornets in my gym for extra chaos
A good ol philosopher called Nate Diaz once said,” Everyone is on steroid”
And that philosopher popped for Ligandrol.
@@Padbot1 makes for good anecdotal evidence for that statement
@@sergiocalderon6325 str8 facts
@@Padbot1 He do not say everyone except me... He was right 🤣.
that's why he's the fan favorite.
MEAT HEAD CHEMIST MEETS GIRAFFE, LET’S GO
someone send this video to derrek from more dishes more bishes
@@TheJdong34 I spammed him yesterday.
There's a grey area in being clean for the Olympics
_Connor Murphy has entered the chat_
If he can suck on the grey area, he's all for it
I would hope they’re clean. I know Olympic lifting doesn’t work up too much of a sweat but you still need to be hygienic
@@iceboxchamberlain1 the clean & jerk at the olympics is literally an event what do you mean
@@TheComedyButchers clean and jerk is only clean is you clean after you jerk
...I'll allow this.
@@TheComedyButchers it's a joke
Supraphysiological amounts of spam will be directed at Derek
If I was 18 y/o and someone said "inject this hormone and take this pill to go the olympics" 99/100 times I would do it. Can't blame the athletes, it starts with the people providing the drugs and protocol.
Same. Tell a young man he can have glory all he has to do is take a lil something. He’ll take it. They wake up early, train and eat like they’re machines. Their entire life revolves around lifting. Of course they’ll take something that makes them better at it.
@@dumahh6887 lol there’s no moral highground when tren makes you a god
Actually, it starts with people that would do anything to compete at the Olympics. Demand creates its own supply.
I trained with a guy who had fled from a middle eastern country where he was on the national weightlifting team. He said every day he walked into the coach's office and they gave him a cup full of pills and said "swallow this" and he wasn't even allowed to ask what it was.
@@dumahh6887 so glad this dumbass hate for drugs is still going strong
The turn-around for a reaction video of this quality is *chef’s kiss*
This is (thank effing god) NOT a reaction video my friend. It’s a delightfully well put together and detailed analysis. Reaction videos are the death of CZcams 😂
@@gimlee44222 I suppose you’re right haha, I just said the above as a ‘reaction’ to Fraser’s comments first came to mind
Wake up babe new Zack Telander video
If doping isn't systematically used in the US, the only reason is because it's a fringe sport (in the US) with not enough money to sustain such a system.
This is the answer. Any sport with $ in the US is def not clean
Agreed. NFL, NHL, NBA, CrossFit to start with. Closed leagues, where doping is monitored but results are withheld by the governing bodies of the aforementioned.
@@The1juhi Every year a few guys in the NFL get popped for PED use and 4 games suspension. Easy to lookup on CZcams.
@@TheRookyMarky Their is no Systematic doping scheme in place. It's individuals making the choice not the entire league or the Government mandate to win at all costs
With that logic at some point a systematic doping protocol will be found for track and field, swimming, gymnastics, and basketball since their very popular in the US.
This video felt like a documentary short from HBO. So high quality!
Mat is lucky to have fans like you creating supportive content to qualify his comments. I try to remain open minded so I can hear this sort of information and see a more clear view. I also am thankful for the specific information you shared I have not seen that before. I will use it as I try to continue creating honest fiction around the subject. Thanks Zach, keep it up- I am sure your dad is proud!
I think Mat Fraser gets a lot of shit just cuz he does CrossFit. Granted I am not a person super familiar with Olympic lifting but his Olympic lifts are pretty beautiful and you do have to respect his accomplishments IMO.
5:47 Order 66 Derek from MPMD, the Giraffe Lord himself has sanctioned it
Now we must spam Derek's comments and inboxes
@@josephaugustinerhodenhiser1353 I just commented in Derek's latest video.
@@thechairman74 as did I, I'll go upvote/like your comment lol
MPMD is and has always been a joke to me. Dude literally tries to sell online coaching for dating, not just workouts.
@@IDiggPattyMayonnaise I’ve been watching for months and he hasn’t once mentioned date coaching...
I guess saying that US competitors are "relatively clean" would be better phrasing.
It’s naive to say that in the US you only have individual rogue cases that go out on their own and dope. Out of context you have the big money sports in the US NFL and Baseball being the mains, both to this day have systemic PED plans, you could even throw WWE in there. They literally are all juiced, no questions. So the system is there, USADA do test these athletes, and for the most part we don’t hear of too many positive cases. So why is it so hard to think that Olympic sport athletes in the US aren’t in similar systems. , and able to pass USADA tests that Brock Lesnar (MMA) and the likes have being passing for years 💴 💴💴
Yeah, it seems that only the government can have a doping program and not the individual sport groups, cuz, yeah.
How much money do you think is in weightlifting in the us? It’s more fringe than powerlifting. There just isn’t the funding or resources to do it. The nfl, wwe, etc doesn’t use good testing protocols. What would work to get around those tests wouldn’t work against WADA, comparing those tests to wada is like comparing a 2nd grade math test to trigonometry tests. There isn’t enough funding or resources for individuals or even American weightlifting as a whole to figure out ways to cheat the system effectively consistently
NFL, major league baseball and WWE (and the NBA and NHL as long as you're at it) don't use USADA or the USADA named-athlete random testing system. There's big money there, so that's a risk they're not going to take. The use of USADA (or, perhaps, a USADA-based system) in testing MMA athletes was not in place for most of Lesnar's career there; since it's been put in place, there's been quite a few athletes who have notably "downsized". That being said, pretty sure that there's enough money in MMA for some of the folks to get sophisticated enough to plan-around things.
Now, as far as the Olympics and US athletes go. . . perhaps T&F athletes (and maybe a swimmer or two) can acquire the funds to get some medical advice and monitoring to dodge random drug tests but, in the post-2012 era, doing that is getting harder with more sensitive assays and more public pressure. However, US T&F athletes definitely were "excellent" -- but, notably, FAILED -- cheats in the 2000-2012 time frame, so perhaps they could do it again. But weightlifting in the US??? Where are they getting the money to do this sort of stuff and why the hell would they do it? Win some T&F events and an Olympic gold in T&F and there is some money to be made (same with swimming), but what the FFFF is motivating an weightlifter to put in some time with anabolics? It definitely could just be the desire to win, and it HAS been for some of the mid-level US lifters (and even 1-2 elite lifters); but clearly that wasn't enough to get them to invest the money required to not get caught.
Systemic doping is less prevalent in the US and many other first world countries.
In sports overall, individual doping is more prevalent in the US than all comparable countries. This may have to do with accessability of substances, culture, and other factors.
Is there a reason to believe that US weightlifting is an outlier in US sports, and dope relatively less?
Or is the US the dirtiest among first world countries, as in other sports?
Why do you think the US is the dirtiest among first world countries?
There is no possible way that the US could defeat all these nations on copious amounts of gear.
And how do you know the US is dirtier than other first world countries
I'll say this, Matt is 100% on drugs while competing at the crossfit games, and if people doubt this then all they need to take a look at is the fact that he had a second puberty where he gained more size and strength then he did during his first puberty.
So I don't really respect his opinion on this given that he is a fake natty, and yes, so are most of the others he competes against but the problem here is "most" and the fact that crossfit is supposed to be a tested sport.
But can't all these statements for USA being clean at top level be also applied to the chinese weightlifting team? Which I'm sure you've implied several times are not clean. The top athletes haven't been caught, those who have competed and been caught are up and coming and are discarded. The lifters don't have sudden jumps(that we know) in performance and have a long history of meets.
Liao Hui from China was busted in 2011.. He was China's most elite at the time...
I don't know the full context of Chinese drug use but I do know that China is a country that is literally enslaving citizens as we speak for the purpose of "bettering" their family country. They also forced millions of babies to be murdered or into orphanages for their one child policy. It's not a stretch to think they would dope their athletes
@@mustang8206 I don't know where you got that second statement from. You could have multiple children. You just had to pay a fine. And most small villages and towns weren't even heavily enforced with the policy. I don't see how you could reach that conclusion unless you've got a mediaeval view on abortion.
@@theclasssy3320 You must not have been watching the news! China kills and enslaves its citizen so the US needs to kill and enslave them to save them from the CCP.
The world needs to sanction them back to medieval times because they are so bad to their citizens.
Woke up, man!
@@theclasssy3320 First off you need to do better research. Second off I don't have a "medieval definition of abortion" I have a factual definition of abortion. Even someone who has a barbaric definition of abortion like you can surely see the issues of forced abortion
Are we gonna ignore that Crossfit doesn't use USADA.
exactly. They literally could have an athlete test positive, not say anything about it, and we'd never know since all their testing is internal. Really brings into question the honesty of the sport, especially when almost all of the failed tests are lower popularity athletes
@@ShellSide I actually think they send all samples to a “WADA” testing facility according to their anti-doping policy, but so does the Union Cycliste Internationale and Lance Armstrong never popped positive on a test. So there’s obviously ways to cheat.
@@JoeyAme they use the WADA labs for testing but the collection is done through a contract with Drug Free Sport who only report information back to them and have no public reporting like USADA.
@@ShellSide yeah that makes sense after hearing Matt talk about getting a 24hr notice prior to them collecting a sample. Defiantly feel there’s some shenanigans going on. It would be devastating to CF if the “fittest” bodies were actually a result of PED and not the CF way of life.
@@JoeyAme its just the paleo diet man I swear! All of our ancestors used to look like that before they invented processed foods lol but yes, I follow Mattie Rogers on instagram and USADA shows up all the time unannounced. I imagine that there are lots of drug protocols or micro-dosing protocols you could enact without worrying about failing a test if you always knew you had 24 hours notice
You don't need to be a sport/medical expert for PED to know that all elite athletes from all over the world using steroids. Track and field athletes, weight lifters, elite competitors in cycling, swimming, triathlon etc. All you need to conclude that is common sense. Statement that American athletes don't use roids is nave if some kid said that. But sad by an elite sportsman it is just cynicism.
Didn't Max Aita say Japan has never had a positive test? I wonder if he meant weightlifting specifically.
I’m glad you made the statement about the out of state testing pool. It’s crazy how many people don’t even know about it and think everyone just “stops so it’s out of their system in time”
Great video as always Zack. One thought I had is that I wondered if the evidence of the governing body sanctioning lower-tier lifters ("nobodies") who will never compete on an elite stage, is just performative to demonstrate that they are "tough on drugs and doping." We see this all the time in NCAA collegiate sports, where lower level programs get hammered with severe sanctions for minor offenses, while the most elite programs in their respective sports consistently evade policing. Just a thought I had while watching. Thanks for the content.
really interesting video, thank mr telander
what are you doing her Pala? Go back to intergram messing with the esl profile!
Zach, how dare you be reasonable and measured. This is the internet, dammit. We want screaming, sensationalism, and black-and-white thinking, summed up in short snappy comments that we can like and comment "lol" to.
lol
I think part of the problem here is the garbled thesis and tone.
Mat (in context) states that the US team (oly lifts specifically) are clean. I think a lot of this would have been avoided if he had just said "cleaner" instead of making a defintive statement.
Then when it comes to your analysis, your arguement for the vast majority of the video is a 10+ min "what about-ism". The fact that the Russian teams have a well-developed and comprehensive drug protocol for their athletes is almost entirely irrelevant to the claim that was made.
You talk about grey areas a lot in the video but regardless of this I felt you failed in your tone, which was overly dismissive to the idea that effective protocols exist in the US in spite of USADA/WADA.
We have extremely strong anecdotely evidence that WADA and its affiliates are either not very good at catching any group with even modest sophisication or that they are sometimes complicit in covering up cheating.
Best response so far
Calm down English major. And no this isn't "what about-ism" his point is that the US Olympic Weightlifting team is cleaner than other countries. And he supports this claim by showing how rampant steroid use is on other teams but NOT on the American team
Fraser’s fake ignorance of PEDs is so annoying and I wish they just wouldn’t talk about it. The fact they obviously can’t say they’re using just makes it pointless to bring up. America probably knows they won’t win golds in weightlifting so the doping is far less prevalent compared to athletics, swimming gymnastics etc. Zack you can’t go by who has been caught. The US would have the most advanced ways to beat tests, and the most cash.
"I'd never even heard of testosterone, I had to google it" - Mat Fraser, probably.
but like you said there's no cash in weightlifting for them, cause they're not winning. And there's no big system to support them and do this for them either like in other sports. Fraser talking about this is laughable definitely.
What *is* curious, is that the US people are still doing ok, especially the women are doing well. And that seems really suspicious if they're clean.
Zack you should do a reaction to Clarence’s most recent video on his antidoping views since it seems you both have different opinions on it and it would be interesting to see what you would say
Im a lifter from Albania and the doping ishue is everywhere its a big problem that should be regulated beacuse is making the image of weightlifing look very bad
i love how people can't fathom the difference between "some of our athletes choose to cheat" and "the government condones cheating, circumvents testing for you to cheat, and literally gives you shit to cheat with that you have to use to be allowed to compete" are even close to the same thing
Zack, you said in the end that PED is cheating. Do you mean it in a way like towards current rules of federation or in overall? Because why not just let them use drugs? Overdose of ANYTHING (food, excercise,working) is lethal.
My coach, former Czechoslovakian national lifter, who's job was to train eat and sleep, weighting 90kg and told me he was on "chemical support" known and unknown substances (he claims the tested a new drug on them) snatched 155 CaJ 190 and cleaned 200kg as his pb. So you need a bit more then a good program a lot of food and sleep with drugs to help you out to be at the top
Of course you need everything in your favor to be among the best
This is awesome Zack. Must have taken ages to put this together. Would love to see this expand to a whole series into controversial topics in weightlifting. Keep up the great work
3:31 I has used dianabol in my past...a light cicle, im was16 years old,but dianabol was amazing unbelievable boost of strong,in only 4 days improve 18 kg of bench press,i take dianabol in tablets, i remember that i has first work out i used my 90 kg in bench press ,Thursday return at gym and try 90kg and was very light ,try 100kg and i note that i could increase other KG ,at end i put 108 kg and i do my 3x8...unfortunately some day after i has a bylateral inflammation on forearms/elbow brachioladialis , extensor radialis and epicondyle humeral...
i remember frazer saying one day, anyone saying we take steroids, are making excuses for their bad performances,lol, so my question is, how does someone that finishes down the field,ie 3 4 5th etc get caught drug cheating, what does that say about the winner, ie frazer ?
Zack, I know what you're saying (well done for the video btw) and I totally agree that the Easter block countries have abused drugs more than anyone else. BUT you can't say USA isn't as bad as other countries simply because they haven't been exposed just yet, similar to China. If it wasn't for the film 'Icarus' (which is an American film), and the actual events they speak of in it, we never would've learned about Russia's dirty methods. But the thing is who would even attempt to put a powerful country like the US in such a position, especially, since no other country would even try to make an 'American Icarus' film.
Also, CJ Cummins, for example, is strong AF for someone of his age and for someone who power jerks. Don't you think there's a good chance he might be on stuff?
To sum up, what I'm trying to say is that any country would try to cheat and win as it would sit well with their media.
Thing is, most us lifters have squat numbers really close to russians or the chinese, some even surpassing them by far. Yet they get demolished in snatch and clean&jerk. How do you respond to this? If you can, that is.
Btw I'm not saying your point isn't valid. The us doesn't have national training camps or coaches to begin with. Everyone lifts at his own, private gym. There isn't a national team, per se, so it is harder to make mass doping a thing.
I dont think that has much to do with doping, just programming.
They only need to be able to squat what they want to clean. Any more strength work is a waste of resources and extra fatigue.
It's the same reason these guys dont have very big deadlifts relatively speaking (around ~320kg) they could probably pull waaay more but they dont need to if they're already making all their pulls in the clean.
this whole video is ironic - considering Matt is a drug cheat in crossfit and retired to save his body from the drug abuse
get over here derek
Spam his Instagram inbox and comments
The argument is that the US is MORE clean. We have no known state-mandated doping like that of the Russian and Bulgarian teams. If we have a positive test, it seems to be on an individual and not as the training team as a whole rather than that of the soviets/ modern Russians/ Bulgarians/ or any other country that has a proven history of mandated doping.
Great video! Sad to see people doesn’t realise he is talking specifically about weightlifting and even more so specifically to his own person experience.
Very true
Don’t need need drugs to be better. Try no fap, no really try it. Been hitting pr’s recently thanks to it and my mind is also healed.
There is no “eastern block”, the cold war has been over for a while and the ussr has fallen a long time ago. Those are separated countries and should be considered accordingly. It’s not “usa 5 popped, eastern block 20” it’s “usa 5, Poland 2, Ukraine 3,...”. Makes no sense to group up different countries and increase the total number just because they are similar and share a past. The USA pops are not counted together with the UK’s, so every nation should be treated just as a single nation. This doesn’t make your point invalid. Doping is more common elsewhere maybe (or just badly hidden) but still elsewhere are different countries
There may not be an eastern block anymore and the cold war may have been over along time ago, but try telling that to Russia....
So true about Matt’s comments on JRE. People are taking it out of context and making absolute statements as opposed to understanding the minutiae of doping in sport and the context in the world of weightlifting.
I don't see what people are taking out of context. What he said is very clear and the inference is made that he's clean, the US is clean and everyone else isn't. Rogan then replied with - ""Isn't that fucked up, that statement you just said, but I know it to be true. When you said the USA is one of the few countries that competes clean. It's actually true and so strange."
It's pretty clear what he is saying right there , there is no charitable reading off that that can water it down to something less ridiculous
@@user-dd7pq2to3o exactly!
someone send this video to derrek from more dishes more bishes
Brilliant stuff, Zack. This really puts this whole debate into perspective for me. It's clear now that people in the know have more than enough information to judge the landscape of international doping fairly and see the differences between countries while the rest of us are in the dark, but the information is there and people like you are starting to get it out so we have a better understanding of the reality of a sport which has for decades remained mysterious in many ways. Thanks.
The US offers one of the most elite sports systems on the planet. They also have very stringent anti-doping programs. But it gets really awkward when every Olympics they top the medal board. I mean if all these smaller countries have state sponsored doping mechanisms why are they struggling in the medals tally. I know there's almost no country in the world to match the US's athelete pipeline. So many sports career potential is available in the US where most countries have a smaller number of choices. But it's still insane to me that the US, Russia and China nearly always top the medals tally at every Olympics. How are they beating state sponsored doping?
As you said, USA (Russia and China too) being one of the Most Elite on the planet is largely due to their status as a world power. They have the funds and facilities to pump out elite athletes with very little contradictory lifestyle elements, whereas less affluent countries do not enjoy this luxury so much.
These lesser countries then support 'state doping' out of necessity to compete. The state wants medals and the Athlete cannot afford the whole system by themselves. This spreads the blame across the Athlete and the State if caught, but also allows the 'State' to enhance, experiment etc without the Athletes consent/direct control. (See Bulgaria, more extreme results)
In USA, the Individual athlete is in a position of lifestyle to perform the system by themselves. The state has no need to interfere as the athlete is pushed to a high level by the system and is able to afford the 'supplementation' at their own expense (This might be coach/athlete/team etc vs solo athlete but still vs State). This places a barrier between the State and the Individual (Interestingly a founding theme of USA) if blame comes knocking.
This then creates a system of capitalism across the whole Athletic industry, where individuals can, due to their affluent lifestyles pick and choose what and where, even if athletics are worth pursuing for them. This unfortunately puts the efficacy of the Doping System at the hands of the Athlete (or whichever smaller unit is responsible). You can see in USA weightlifting, as mentioned in the video, USA coaches grasp for information from other people in these fields, there is no systemic overarching library to source methods from, whereas in the 'State Systems' (Just look at the Russian documentation across Weightlifting) there are researched and established methods, removing requirements of time and energy to learn and experiment and fail tests from the individual athlete.
Yes, everybody dopes. Some countries have better systems for it than others, some countries have better systems for other Athlete producing aspects. From the results we can deduce that necessity and organized doping might produce better results than ability and luxury alone.
My thoughts, anyway.
Zack-Sama has again expanded my pineal gland with another banger of a video
The music in the back just adds that very nice touch to this video
I dont think that you can compare the usa to russia and i think matts Statement is somehow right. In the usa its not systemical doping its maybe one group of athletes or just one person that does it. in comparison russia has had a doping system where al lot of athletes were doped and thats why the country is generally suspicios. Im from germany and we had an very comperabel problem in east germany where kids at the age of 16 where doped and i think thats why now germany has had just so few examples of doping in recent times because we fear our own past. For me i think thats a improvement.
2:26 Furosemide, Stanozolol, etc. And then, at the bottom of the list, Caffeine lol.
As a fellow coffee addict, this is an outrage.
Courier Mail: The caffeine test was shown to be inaccurate - what do you reckon was the problem?
Alex Watson: The IOC had been led to believe the test by professor Manfred Donike was accurate but they dropped it because they realised that to make a determination of someone’s caffeine use from that test was completely flawed. The whole point was to stop people taking it in massive doses but they told us before we left at a team meeting that we cannot fail the caffeine test by taking caffeine in normal form via chocolate, coke or caffeine.
Courier Mail: So how much did you have?
Alex Watson: We estimated I had over the course of the 12 hours fencing event I had 10 to 12 cups of coffee. I just look at it I would rather it had not have happened. I would have liked to have completed the competition because I was having a good tournament and won the showjumping. The ridiculous thing was we were getting the coffee from open hospitality booths at the fencing venue. Richard Phelps the Bortish athlete gave a statement saying he drank considerably more coffee on the day of the fencing and his level was five times lower than mine. The whole thing was a flawed test. It was urine testing not blood.
Dude was up to win a medal, but was pulled out mid-competition.
Nate diaz has entered the chat
Was about to comment on Dereks page. But I see the delts already have been summoned
Santa Claus is real too
I'd like to see an Olympic event with every athlete dosed to the gils.
That would be dope.
Could probably just go watch an 80's Olympics.
Ironmind videos
That’s what you’re already watching
@@arvidpetersson2252 Not really. Modern testing will make it if anything at least harder to get away with things. So even if people aren't clean, it's not like they can go full blast.
I'm fairly sure that top level Strongman is pretty wink wink nudge nudge, based on some comments by the competitors about testing.
It's not Olympic weightlifting but if you're looking for huge guys doing crazy, inhuman stuff, it's probably what you're looking for.
America is juicy just like everyone else, we just aren't as good at it.
In usa there was sistematic doping in baseball so its just where the money is at
This video should be considered *the* definitive response on this topic!
Facts bruh
State doping bad. Individual doping good. Got it 👌
Wow, this video totally went over your head, didn't it?
poor guy on the usada sanction list done for cannabinoids lol
I'll tell you what though, that dianabol does work wonders. Puts a shit load on my lifts.
thoughts on the juji drama
A guy that talks about being clean isn't clean. Matt when he started was literally nothing...no natural anything. But some how with a whole lot of kipping pullups and kettlebell swings he got to this level.
East Germany was the most institutional and structured drug use in track and field. They also spent an insane amount of money just for developing and training throughout their whole country.
At Least you can quantify that with the insane results they got by medal count compared to country size. If we go by that measurement the US is no were close to clean...
@@goodtaste4 Could also point out The US being the wealthiest country with the most opportunity to pursue such endeavors unlike others.
Excellent video about a subject that people are EXTREMELY prickly about. There is rightfully no attempt here to discredit the talent and hard work of any individual lifters, but to willfully ignore a verifiable systemic difference between the approaches of different nations is doing a disservice to the integrity of the sport across the board
For future reference if you don't, you should post the video you speak of in the video in description of comment section.
As an Aussie, I think Dean Lukin in 1984 is a good example of the systemic nature of this. Look at the lifts that won gold in the super heavyweights in 1980 and then in 1988 and compare to Dean’s lifts in 84. Huge difference.
P.S. In and of years 90' a Journalist went a some College in California in L.A. and ask on many guys that practiced sports this question: If it exited a drug that if you take in 3 months you become the best famous and rich Athletes on the Planet ,but after 3 years this drug kill you at 100%, witch are your choice?You take or not?Well in almost 80% of answer guys say yes! Now ,this was only a questions not has nothing on scientific or statistic, fortunately dont exist a drug like this, and answers on guys most probably was make without reflect much...but in every case is a interesting for understand a young guy...
Hey Zack should begginers to Weightlifting do SL/SS or start training right away with a coach?
Aye man new to strength training and found your channel.i like ur shit keep it up 💯
Lol'd @ "NPC 1, 2 and 3"
Take away: never, ever listen to Joe Rogan or promote his show in any way.
2:42, 6 athletes were busted for PED use in an Equestrian sport....jesus even animals are juicing now!
Hi Zack please don't be naive - everyone at a high level is on gear. Do you really think that there are some naturals that can out compete those that are juicing hard? Of course not. Yes they are the best of the best genetically, and they all take gear, which evens the playing field. There is no (zero) way that you can compete on a similar playing field and be natural.
It is ridiculous when people think that eg one person that medalled cheated and the rest were natural - inches within the same time/score. Taking PEDs when you have good genetics gives you a DRASTIC advantage. If everyone was natural then you'd have random people performing hugely above everyone (the rare cheaters)
It’s almost impossible to compete in the Olympics without PEDs at this point. I feel like only the Skateboarding, and BMX events are clean.
5:23 Worlds collide
I’m upset this channel doesn’t have more subscriptions. Kudos to Telander popularizing this sport through critical topics.
big algo's in the chat
Love how this popped up on my feed because of Derek from MPMD commented on it as well
13:31 Bruh I just forgot what the entire video was about, I'm weak.
@MorePlatesMoreDates
Review this
Are you for train Zack?
I’m a pharmacist and HOLY SHIT!!!! Throw out sex, age, natural ability...the fact these people have functioning livers, no blood clots or kidney issues are amazing. Starting elite athletes around 15 or younger? Instantly closes the growth plates in their bones stunting their height permanently. Yes the athlete would cycle on and off before a competition but when would they start again? How many competitions in a year could they participate in without a noticeable decline in strength or psyche? Many forget once one is off cycle the weight you were throwing around 3 weeks ago now you’re struggling with gets in your head....(see Sha’carri Richardson’s dead last performance at Prefontaine this year). She was mouthing off because she quit with 30 meters left knowing she was not in the right headspace after seeing everyone in front of her. Gear makes you feel invincible. Tapering off incorrectly makes you feel soft, weak and slow, maybe emotional.
Cheat and then Robles comes on the screen 😂
@@toximan2008 she served a 2 year ban for peds
Thats honestly sad about the tatiana kashirina case. No human should be messing with their hormones during puberty, and having basically state sponsored hormone use is very detrimental to her health. I bet she will have future liver and kidney problems, as well as increased insulin resistance and possibly even diabetes, as the diet of a super heavyweight isnt exactly blood sugar friendly
Oh yeah...:)))) The country with the highest usage of PEDs among general public, but our athletes.. they are clean . Yeah fo sure
Lol. You think the US has the highest ped use of the general public? 🤣
All he needed to say was "cleaner" - clean assumes that everyone is clean.
"undercover reporters went to Gatlin’s training camp in Florida. Here the athlete’s coach and athletics agent offered to supply and administer testosterone and growth hormone. The reporters posed as production company employers looking for substances to help an actor get into shape.They reportedly recorded Gatlin’s coach, the former Olympic gold medalist Dennis Mitchell, and the agent, Robert Wagner, claiming doping in athletics was still widespread and that doping tests proving the use of any banned substances could be avoided." Say Hello to the reality Mat 😂
these things are commercially driven in the us while in European and Asian countries they are not, especially back in the days. Other countries demand more gold medals regardless of the popularity of the sport to gain international fame or to simply " beat USA" in the cold war background. That is why we see doping occurs more in the commercially popular events such as tennis, football, swimming, tracks in the US, because in here, powerlifting and body building are way more popular than weightlifting(and have way more doping problems). Thus it is less economically beneficial to dope in weightlifting for Americans. That's why athletes like Lochte gets handed most advanced pills made by top labs and get on the "asthma list" while Mat Fraser would have to beg and pay millions to get(not saying he would have doped if he had the access).
I don't agree with Zack on everything but I like his channel because he uses his brain. We're just different. No sheep here
Great video man. I'm so sick of the circle jerk of "EVERY PRO ATHLETE IS ROIDED OUT OF THEIR MINDS" that seems to be so widely accepted these days. This is a breath of fresh air.
Always love your input. Thanks
Just make a psuedo open league where ped are legal but only the most dangerous drugs are banned and the lifters can sign waivers and such acknowledging they're aware of and educated on what they're taking and let the chips fall where they may
Competes clean at what? Because it sure as hell ain't running. 🤣
The thing is, with many modern PEDs it is very, very hard to detect them, and with a state program it would be very easy to control and regulate use by medical professionals to avoid detection and maximize results.
Icarus showed exactly how complex this could be, and I don't think Russia have stopped I just think they improved.
Now I don't want to state "everyone is on steroids" because honestly, outside of a few key examples, we don't have evidence. But I'm a scientist by profession, I work on observation and reason. Looking at top tier echelons of any sport you have a wide variety of athletes, but they are all gifted in terms of their athletic potential, they have to be.
In terms of genetic potential (god I hate the way the fitness community uses the term "genetics") most of these people are similar, they have a minor advantage over one another. So it is very odd to me when you have people giving others who are equally talented, but also on PEDs, a run for their money.
If an athlete is at the same skill level, but should have a strength and speed advantage over any natural athlete, if an athlete gives them a hard competition, logic dictates that athlete is also enhanced.
This is basically what Zack is saying at times (I think), but in a much more in depth with far more evidence and thought to it.
This is a long comment already, but I would like to make a final point. (Congratulations if you made it this far).
Concerning professional sports, there is so much riding on the line that the vast majority of athletes will take any advantage. When it comes to the olympics national pride is on the line, I highly doubt any nation is against using any means to win, especially the superpowers.
Modern PEDs are becoming INSANE in the degree of their impact on athletic ability and on their undetectability (just listen to the top doctors at USADA talking about this). You don't even have to be on them at that time, many PEDs have a permanent impact on physiology, though to a far lesser degree than continuous use. So these athletes might be enhanced, but not currently using. There are so many possibilities.
I sincerely think we should just call it quits, get over the ridiculous morality involved, and legalize them in sport. Most professional athletes at a high level have likely been exposed to PEDs, maybe they don't take them, but much of the elite does in virtually any sport. They enhance strength, speed, recovery time, and you literally cannot compete as an unenhanced athlete unless you are in a primarily skill based sport, and even then the advantage is undeniable.
Hey zack. Do you think that a person representing a country, which culture is based on results, in the olympics is not “heavily suggested” to use drugs?
Guys and Girls remember the First Important Commandment in Sport(Olympic Games & other Professional Sport) "Nobody real clean Athletes can win VS doped Athletes" is impossible that a professional and doped athletes lost vs a real clean athletes,is like a simple math "rules" 1+1= 2 ! Now i want talk on "Second Important Commandment" on Professional Sportsmen, W.A.D.A. is not one step behind drugs systems, but two step behind,and now a "clean" example on this second rules: Tyson Gay(amazing talent & doped athletes) has lost VS Usain Bolt(they has passed all antidrug test) ,and if the first and second rules are right, how is possible that real not doped athletes has beat a doped athletes(Tyson Guy & others Athletes)? The answer is easy, is IMPOSSIBLE and then Usain Bolt not was real clean. In 2006 before Olympic Games on 2008 in Beijing a famous Scientific Magazine "Science" spoke on new Era of the doping the GENETIC or GENE DOPING, impossible to find with common antidrug test blood/urine ,and W.A.D.A. in 2008 not has the possibility to discover this type of doping,even today is enormous difficult and expensive find who have used this system of doping!
This was very informative, thank you.