A Plan to Transform New York’s Railways
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- čas přidán 17. 11. 2023
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From S-Bahns in Germany, to through-running subways in Tokyo, world-class regional rail transforms cities. In today's video, we talk about a plan to do just that for New York.
Effective Transit Alliance report: www.etany.org/modernizing-new...
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
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Heads up that the link leads to a 30% discount, not 40%
Canadian percents are metric. It’s probably nominally 1/3.
@@kitchin2 When I used a VPN it was still showing as 30% off. Also, the difference between 30% and 40% is not 1/3, that's just basic math.
@@kitchin2, thanks for the LOL! 😺!
> Re: people aren't travelling from White Plains to Long Branch today
Or another way to put it, You cannot judge the demand for a bridge by the amount of people who swim across the river.
Respectfully, i question that. Perhaps not to white plains from nj, but definitely to places like the botanical gardens (to see a Christmas garden railway show), the Bronx zoo, or to yankee stadium. All places that could be much easier to get on trains with through running.
Absolutely, it can be applied to so many issues
I love this metaphor!
The unsaid benefit is reduction in car traffic on GWB. So many of these connections are really only attractive to drive at the moment.
Using a couple lanes for tracks, as was initially intended, will free up even more capacity on the GWB
@@weenisw this is the “just one more lane bro” I can endorse
For sure!
Does the geometry work?@@weenisw
If only GWB train and subway tracks was built...
I am specifically a resident of Putnam County, New York, the commute to the city daily.
I am not able to take any jobs in NJ because of the strenuous commute.
If this happened, it would literally transform my life .
I really hope this becomes a reality for you. Crossrail has been transformational in my travels across the Greater London region. Better public transportational is always something to hope for and can be achieved if there is the will!
Same, in reverse: living in Bergen County NJ, I declined a job offer in Westchester NY because it was too difficult to commute.
Remembering when I was still in Putnam County and salivating at this
All the more reason to reach out to your elected reps and also the folks at the ETA! Help become part of the solution!
My family had a similar thing almost happen. We live in NJ and my dad got a job offer for a company in Stamford CT. If he took the job he would have to chose between commuting 3+ hrs a day on Amtrak or moving. Luckily he got a better job offer in NJ.
Oh man, as a Brooklynite, this would be game changing. Definitely going to share this with my reps!
The Atlantic Branch extension would be incredible!
@RMTransit not to mention if they were smart and used m8s for the bay ridge branch like I wanted them to
In order to pull this off, I still think all the rail and subway services in the New York City area should all use a single common transit pass system similar to the PASMO payment system used in the Tokyo region. That way, one pass allows you access to all transit services, extremely important for the cross-city commuter train service mentioned in this video.
I thought they all used omny card? Or is that just for the subway
@@JoeyLovesTrains the subway and the buses are using them, but LIRR, and metro north haven´t gotten them yet.
Meanwhile, NJtransit and PATH each decided to with separate smartcard systems.
@@J-Bahn what?! Why would PATH do something else?! I thought the fare system in New York was already figured out with the east contactless payment stuff.. dang
Perhaps I’d add one fare system to one common ticket/pass system as well, like the German Verkehrsverbünde
@@JoeyLovesTrains port authority is a pretty wretched institution. they’re using the same vendor that built omny to build a system that is pretty much omny. complete waste of money.
I'd like to clarify, on the NJ side of the map at 1:10, the NY portion of the Pascack Valley Line and the Port Jervis Line should be highlighted as part of Metro-North Railroad as while they are both operated by NJ Transit, service is under contract with Metro-North. And so the coaches and locomotives used on the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines are labelled Metro-North and NJ Transit depending on who owns the trainset! Unlike the Metro-North services east of the Hudson that terminate at Grand Central, the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines terminate at Hoboken Terminal.
The Port Jervis Line is actually a pretty neat line as it runs through some of the most remote and rural country found on the Metro-North system, and includes both its longest bridge, the Moodna Viaduct, and longest tunnel, the Otisville Tunnel. The Moodna Viaduct was constructed between 1906 and 1909 and spans the Moodna Creek valley for 3,200 feet/975 m and is 193 feet/59 m high at its highest point, making it the second-highest and second-longest railroad trestle east of the Mississippi River, behind the Poughkeepsie Bridge which is now the Walkway over the Hudson. The Otisville Tunnel is over 1,600 m in length and passes underneath the Shawagunk Ridge.
The Port Jervis line is certainly pretty! I was lucky enough to ride it the night after a snowfall. One of the best days of my life!
I live in Philly, where we built a Center City tunnel back in the early 80's and it was an absolute game changer for the city. It's really the area in which we lead most other cities in the region and on the continent in general. This project in NYC would be like the CC Commuter Connection tunnel, but on 10x the scale. Would be colossal for the region.
Yeah it's interesting that Philly is the only major city in the US which pretty much did go the RER route, although very underfunded, true to American ways.
Though you could operate it a whole lot better if the SEPTA leadership had not tried to use that against the unions, and the unions then won by hamstringing it in contracts. I don't know how they eventually will fix it to get the S-Bahn they were promised all those years ago, but even that getting screwed up shows the source of our problems cheapskate pro- transit politicians and bureaucrats and the anti-transit ones on top of that.
While the CC Commuter tunnel does a great job serving points north and west, it would be far better if more access from south and east were available as well. I mean yes, there are the AC line and PATCO but I feel that Gloucester and Camden counties could be better served with fast, efficient and frequent rail, getting more commuters out of their cars and off the bridges every morning
But the train frequency is down from years so. Sad.
totally agreed. PATCO should 100 % be expanded into Southeast Jersey, and also West into University City. Would go a LONG way. The AC line is remarkable to me in that it still runs tbh@@alcubierrevj
A few years ago, there was a football gameday service from New Haven or Stamford (which ran along the proposed new MN route in the Bronx and Queens), running to and stopping at Penn Station, and continuing to Secaucus where one transferred to the stadium shuttle. (They used NJ Transit equipment throughout.) With infrastructure already in place, there are plenty of little things that can be done right now to improve rail transit. I would venture to say that if there was only ONE agency running all of Metro NY’s rails, a LOT on this list could be possible. Great video!
You can have multiple agencies, having one giant agency like we already have? Port Authority of NY/NJ.
I would say it's really impractical to merge the '3 agencies' since you're dealing with 2 states, and there are certain services that is only of the interest of one state but not the other. The best example would be the NYC subway that doesn't even serve a single inch of track across the Hudson river in NJ. So if the new single agency still has to run the NYC subway, I can't see how either NY or NJ would agree to have a single agency that takes over all rail transit. This is not DC where probably the majority of the Metro network is already in MD/VA, since DC is small & the metro area is a little less centralized.
Best case is to see how other countries do it, plenty of countries and cities like London, Tokyo, Seoul, Paris, run across multiple jurisdictions, heck there are so many cities in the Tokyo system and they run it fine. I would first ask, how is it done somewhere else that has even more complex government structure than the US. @@davidfreeman3083
@@davidfreeman3083 NYC Subway can remain under the MTA umbrella while Metro North and LIRR merge into this new agency with NJ Transit Rail. MTA would basically remain to be the managing agency for NYC Subway and Bus services
I’ve taken this train once and it was a revelation in what is possible
Totally agree - but I think like many things in the US, the problem comes down to governance. I believe a constitutional change would be needed to allow NY, NJ and CT to be able to work together to form a true metropolitan transport agency.
Huh..I didn't know about the requirement about a change in the constitution...then again considering what I read about the mediocrity of transit operated by the bistate Port Authority of NY & NJ (PATH and the buses), there is a point....
Isn’t the Port Authority already an interstate compact? It just needed congressional approval.
If wmata can do it why can’t y’all
It’s a great idea. It makes a lot of sense. It would dramatically improve the lives of millions of people…and it’ll likely never happen because the US is such a poorly designed country. In a normal country the NYC region would be politically catered to and heavily supported by the federal government simply based on the sheer size of its population (in other words, voters) but in our wonderful system it’s largely ignored by one party and actively punished by the other.
Exactly. At the end of the day, the issue of through running is a political one rather than an operational one.
The Port Washington Branch is definitely a solid LIRR branch to start off with, but between Great Neck and Port Wash is single tracked which of course limits frequency and it can't double-track because of what's surrounding the ROW. In order to make the LIRR be a big part of it, it has to address its big issues, especially with its diesel branches, the Oyster Bay, Greenport Branch, Port Jeff Branch (between Huntington and Port Jeff) and the Montauk Branch. The Oyster Bay Branch is mostly double-tracked, however just like Port Washington, the end part between Locust Valley and Oyster Bay is single-tracked. The Port Jefferson Branch falls into the same problem, single-tracked between its last two stops of Stony Brook and Port Jeff.
But the Greenport Branch and the Montauk Branch are its biggest obstacles. On top of it being a diesel branch, it's single-tracked between Sayville ALL THE WAY to Montauk, for about 70 miles! The stations between Babylon and Sayville are double-tracked, but passed Sayville, it's not! The southern portion of the Central Branch between Bethpage and Babylon that some Montauk Branch trains use is also single-tracked and non-electrified as well. At the very least, electrify and double-track up to Speonk where regular service ends! For the Greenport Branch (a part of the Ronkonkoma Branch), it has historically been dark territory, as in no signals! It's all single-track between Ronkonkoma and Greenport, which is 46 miles.
From experience, I would kill for a direct trip from New Rochelle to NJ... the drive sucks and I've always said it would be a transit trip if we were in Europe
Second this. I was in New Rochelle fairly recently for a wedding, and getting to EWR was far more painful than it should’ve been. The first phase of this project that economically thru runs trains from New Brunswick, NJ to Stamford, CT needs to happen.
Direct train service in general would make a lot of journeys better
Just visited New York good luck with everyone to cooperate, a new tunnel under the Hudson is definitely needed.
I was just in New Rochelle from out of town. The trip from there to Newark Liberty Airport was such a pain. The first phase of the plan, utilizing Penn Access to provide frequent, thru running rail between New Brunswick, NJ and Stamford, CT would be amazing and could’ve saved me so much time!
As a New Rochelle resident, being able to have a train that could provide easier access to New Jersey or Queens would be game-changing. Currently the best way into Queens from New Rochelle is across the Throgs Neck Bridge. However, this is only really accessible if you have a car to drive it. If you don't, then there is no easy access unless you want to spend too much on an Uber or Lyft.
In general, it would be a great option for CT residents and Westchester residents as a whole, including Brooklyn, Queens, and NJ residents who would like easier access to those spots or any of the other locations as a whole.
There is a lot of trips I wish I could make easier into CT, NJ and Upstate. I can get into NJ fairly well, but better reach and higher speeds / more frequency would be incredible.
On the off chance I need to go to Jamaica, taking the nearby LIRR is actually really quite nice. It's far faster than the subway at a price premium, but in some instances that's justified. Expanding this option to more destinations across the "nearby" region would make some trips have the equivalent of a toll road for trains; pay a little more, save time and have a better experience.
Moreover, doing routes like this can help to relieve the congestion on Manhattan subway lines for folks going cross borough. There is going to be the IBX (eventually) but a higher speed mode would compliment that nicely, and help to serve Bronx to Brooklyn as well. My coworker has a 1.5 hour commute on that route, and I'm certain they'd pay a little extra to shave that down to 45 minutes.
If there could be some way to integrate OMNY into this as well... Amazing. To shuttle people from EWR to Manhattan just by tapping their phone or card would be amazing. It would have to be somewhat different for the higher fares, but regardless avoiding the need to buy tickets explicitly just makes the experience easier to understand for the huge amounts of tourists.
Agreed! NJ: we want OMNY! We want OMNY!
Also a one seat ride from NJ to Jamaicia would make accessing JFK SO MUCH EASIER!
@@J-Bahnalso making the air train free would make life so much easier! Most other American cities already have free transit to an airport. Why not New York??? (And Newark)
@@JoeyLovesTrains Oh yes it would, believe me! (as well as actually connecting the Airtrain to Terminal A) I will eventually make a video about this, but in the case of Newark, based on my calculations a $3 surcharge on each ticket out of Newark airport should cover all the revenue lost and more if the airtrain were made free.
Having an integrated fare payment method for integrated cross regional trains is common sense for sure, as is a fully intewgrated and rationalized fare scheme that incorporates NJT, LIRR, MNR, the Subway and the Path!
As someone who goes to school in New Brunswick, and often visits family in Stamford: YES PLEASE UES
As a local of New Jersey and who actively uses NJ Transit for non commuter uses, its not good and this proposal would be revolutionary for my life, but New York would never work with New Jersey on this, they are actively making the new penn station tunnel more difficult and expensive, love the video RM Transit
Well i think we need to try!
Also from New Jersey.
Never say never, if cities around the world can do it New York can too. Its impossible until it isn't!
Metro North's M8 multiple units are already capable of switching between 12.5kV 60Hz AC and 660V DC top contact third rail all they need is just to make an M10 version that can also use 12kV 25Hz AC and 750V bottom contact third rail
The Port Washington line has a large issue: the end part of the line is single tracked. It already limits LIRR service frequency as it is, and can't be upgraded due to RoW issues. Anything running on Port Washington will be limited by this section.
Glad someone mentioned this. Single track from Port Washington to Great Neck stations.
As a regular NJT commuter rail rider in the NYC area (NYP-Jrsy Ave) who recently experienced the RER-A line, I fully approve this presentation. Definitely a no-brainer idea which would benefit MANY!
However, my hunch is that Amtrak would seriously pushback on through running on the NEC.
(But wondering if this could ultimately be a PANYNJ operation. 🤔)
The current PSA plan has third rail thrown in because the M8s are incompatible with Amtrak's weird voltage (12 kV at 25 Hz). Any rolling stock used for this would need compatibility with two different types of third rail, overhead wires, and multiple voltages, all while still getting through the 63rd Street Tunnel. Even then, federal regulations can still be a potential monkey wrench in all of this, to say nothing of needing three states on board.
The less said about the Port Authority, the better.
@@sonicboy678 It's certainly doable, look at European trains. SNCF, Eurostar, Trenitalia, Renfe and DB rolling stock that do international trips are switchable between 25kv AC (France, UK, Belgium, Italy, Spain, German ICE track), 15kv AC (Germany, Austria), and 1500v DC (Netherlands). The 12kv/25hz I believe is only on the NJ section of the NEC, the CT section up through Boston runs 12kv/50hz which is what MNRR M8 trains run on when off 3rd rail, and NEC south of NJ is 25kv I do believe. Obviously Amtrak rolling stock has been able to switch between the 3 for a long time.
@@sonicboy678 The 3rd rail is the easy part, LIRR M9s already have a dual contact shoe that works on both the LIRR top contact 3rd rail and MNRR bottom contact 3rd rail. That could probably be retrofitted to M7s/M7As and M8s without too much trouble. The real problem would be adding ASCES to LIRR rolling stock. They use a different in cab signaling system that has more precise block management, but can't read line speed like ASCES can.
The problem really is the bureaucratic infighting and cooperation between not just these three but other ancillary agencies in the region. It just takes one of them to throw a spanner in to put a halt to it all. Not saying this can’t be done. Just knowing the people and politicians involved doesn’t give me great confidence.
Take for example one of the transportation modes you mentioned here. For better or worse (mostly worse for the riders) the metrocard is going away and is being replaced with OMNY. In and of itself a contactless system is great. Now both the subway and the PATH system use metro cards. So I, living here in say Hoboken can use the metro card and use path then use it again for the subway. That goes away with OMNY. To make matters worse is the Port Authority that runs PATH is using the same company that made OMNY for their new contactless system. That will not be OMNY. So we have two currently incompatible systems that will do the same function, built by the same company. Now do you understand what I’m getting at. This is the level of stupidity and power control that they have. Can you imagine what all the others involved in a regional system would be like.
It’s not that I don’t think we need this badly, we most certainly do. It’s the parties involved that I know will scuttle this just to protect their power.
This is the core issue and the only reason that something like this wasn‘t implemented decades ago.
Bureaucrats would literally lose budgets and jobs. That is the core function of these agencies, not to serve the public!
Imagine getting the governors of NY, NJ and CT and the NYC mayor on one page 😱
Its bad but places around the world face the same challenges
@@RMTransit but places around the world aren't the NY tri State area. There's a reason why our transit is sub par. I gave you one tiny glimpse. I can go into the rest of why the MTA is gumming up all the works at Penn station. Or that at best these Three (four if you extend this to PA) State agencies loathe each other and actively sabotage the other if possible. Then just to construct this all. Whatever timeframe they have you can toss it right now. It will take twice the time they imagine and three times the cost for half of it done if ever. Then unlike in other countries, we here in the States are a litigious group. Just one public interest group can and do get injunctions at the drop of a hat. So take it who's seen all this before and watch it just wither because of all this. This isn't going to be easy at all.
@@RMTransit Care to offer an example of something like the OMNY situation happening somewhere else (that isn't also in the US of course)? I get the sense that you may not understand the depth of how incredibly broken the political situation is in the NYC metro area.
This is a place where one of the few major public transit projects in the last few decades to actually get built, East Side Access, a project that cost 4 times what it was originally priced at $11 billion, actually made service worse for many. And it didn't even involve requiring multiple state agencies to coordinate!
Speaking of dual mode trains, part of the issue is that NYC actually has five different electrification standards: The NEC south of Harold interlocking in Queens (as well as the North Jersey Coast Line north of Aberdeen/Matawan) is 12kV 25Hz overhead line, the NEC north of Harold is 11kV 60Hz overhead line, the Morris and Essex Lines (as well as the North Jersey Coast Line south of Aberdeen/Matawan) is 25kV 60Hz overhead line, while Metro North is 750V bottom-contact third rail and LIRR is 750V top-contact third rail.
The reason the M8s aren't universally usable is because 25Hz-capable transformers are a little over twice as heavy as 60Hz-capable transformers, and the extra weight of the larger transformer plus the all-steel construction of the M8s made them too heavy to run by our standards. Now, if we were to buy something Aventra-, Desiro-, or FLIRT-based we could probably get trains that could comfortably handle all five standards while still remaining under 12'10" high (the height limit for trains into Grand Central Madison) and then have a truly universal EMU for the region.
The other thing to realize is that past long branch you have diesel power only as well.
@@storm.57z23 Yup; an actual universal MU would need a diesel engine under the car next to the power electronics to handle that gracefully.
@@storm.57z23 Can always electrify or short turn!
@@RMTransit The distance from Long Branch to Bay Head isn't even that far. I don't even know why they didn't electrify it in the first place.
Good video, but there are some caveats. Firstly, the Metro North tunnels into Grand Central are sub-surface tunnels, not deep bored. As such, they can't really be extended Southwards. Maybe the lower level platforms, but even then it would be an engineering feat, to say the least. The current Penn tunnels are also sub-surface. The M8s are good trains, but they have limitations. 1) They can't currently operate into Penn Station because the Penn vicinity still uses overhead wire energized with AC at 25hz, as opposed to the general 60hz used in the North American grid and the New Haven mainline. (US railroads like New Haven and the PRR once used AC power @25hz instead of 60hz because ... reasons, but some railroads have changed that in part or whole since). For that reason, when Penn Station Access is done, third rail will have to be extended onto the North Eastern Corridor to facilitate M8s even though there are overhead wires all the way. Metro North and LIRR also use different styles of 3rd rail, MN uses a system where the collector shoe on the train runs under the 3rd rail while LIRR uses "over running" 3rd rail as does the NY Subway. The M8s won't be able to go into the LIRR platforms at Grand Central Terminal because the 68th street tunnel is too small to accommodate anything other than a 3rd rail only M7 railcar, though the M3s would also physically fit. Finally, any through running plan is going to have to be co-ordinated between New York City, State and the State of New Jersey. That's going to be ... easier said than done.
in Europe there are trains able to run under 15kV@16.7hz, 25kv@50Hz, 1,5KV DC and 3KV DC only backdraw is that 16,7Hz trains need tree times bigger transformers than pure 50hz trains.
This would be a game changer. Currently taking a train from Connecticut to the Newark airport is doable, but you either need to take metro north to njtransit with a subway ride in between, which is slow and not cheap, or buy an Amtrak ticket, which is great, but you have to buy a ticket to a specific train in advance, which is not great if either the train gets delayed (happens often) or if the flight gets delayed. Amtrak can also be expensive or sell out since the northeast corridor is capacity limited.
Great video. Is there any discussion on building a connection from Atlantic Terminal to Fulton Street and on to Grand Central and Penn Station? I believe Alon Levy proposed this?
Thats in the later phases discussed in the report!
@@RMTransit Yay!
excellent video. This would be life changing for the tri state area as it definitely would lower traffic... Being raised in Yonkers, Going to planes like Newark or Connecticut was always considered a long trip and thus rarely did it... u laid this plan out perfectly
Thanks for the great videos. My suggestion: do one video focused on the food for each ship you travel on
Thanks for this video! Very cool high-level analysis. Would love to see NYC implement true regional transit!!
Glad to see Alternative G finally getting some time in the sun. I think the through running which should use SAS phase 3 and 4 capex would be through running of GC Madison to Atlantic terminal with two stations , 14th St and Fulton St which would take massive load off of lex.
These regional rail improvements would serve one-seat-ride/express needs and relieve enough pressure from the subways to justify de-interlining the subways
As someone who grew up in NJ and currently lives two blocks from a MetroNorth station, this would make it much easier to see my family without needing a car.
That said, this will never happen. NJ Transit will never be allowed in MetroNorth’s territory.
NY & NJ have a… complicated history. The 7 subway line was supposed to be extended into Secaucus Junction in NJ 10 years ago. It was federally funded, and they decided not to do it.
I like this idea a bit, it reminds me of an earlier idea from the RPA that was called T-REX.
If I had to make two proposals in addition, it’d be:
(1) A flying junction connecting the Oak Links line to the NEC at Hells Gate, allowing for MNR lines to go directly to Long Island.
(2) A tunnel linking Hoboken-WTC-Atlantic Terminal, making stops at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (ACG) and Clark St (NYTransit Museum)
I think the RPA proposal had a distinct advantage in that it continued Metro North service down through lower Manhattan before connecting to LIRR at Atlantic Terminal and running on into Long Island. That is likely a good deal more expensive than this proposal, but also brings a good deal more value by eliminating alleviating congestion on the 4/5/6 Subway through allowing direct service from the northern suburbs all the way to lower Manhattan (and beyond). In addition, this route could conceivably be connected directly to JFK Airport (via the Conduit Ave RoW), greatly improving access to JFK.
Thats in the later phases discussed in the report!
@@RMTransit appreciate the response! Yes, on review, I now see what you are referring to in the "Potential Future Investments" section. That being said, the southbound extension of Metro North through lower Manhattan to Staten Island proposed therein strikes me as less than ideal since the connection out to Staten Island would likely be prohibitively expensive and not generate enough trips to justify, but likely be necessary to have decent frequency of service (given the lack of potential yard space on the southern tip of Manhattan).
By contrast, I think the RPA's plan of the North/South Metro North spine continuing out to JFK airport would have many benefits, creating a one-seat ride for Westchester & CT to Lower Manhattan who would be replaced by Manhattan residents or tourists heading out to JFK, relieving pressure on some of the city's busiest subway lines and providing a much more convenient experience for all.
The true jewel in the crown of the RPA plan would be if a new central station could be created at the intersection of a North/South (MNRR, LIRR) line and East/West (NJT, LIRR, Amtrak) line. This could allow almost all cross-regional trips to be made with at most one transfer and truly expand the region's potential.
The one modification of the RPA's plan I'd propose is to try and to continue Metro North tracks south from Grand Central along Park Ave (à la the Effective Transit Alliance's proposal here) vs the RPA's proposal of an entirely new tunnel the length of 3rd Ave (which would effectively strand Grand Central).
But before we get to any of those ambitious plans, we really need to get our act together and take the easy win of through running/interoperating New Jersey Transit and LIRR on the lines already in existence. If we can't reach even that low-hanging fruit...
Great video. I love to see our regions powers acknowledge these plans and allow the public to discuss them
This would be fantastic
i love you and your videos.
This does cement my theory that most big transit projects nowdays are just some iteration of the S-Bahn principle
A project like this will really take a lot of cars off the road.
I hope public transport gets better in New York
Through-running regional rail is amazing. The Frontrunner does this and honestly is what makes it seem better than some other Intermountain West services and it makes improving service in the future (like 110 mph, electrification, and complete double tracking) something that even a deeply red and car-dependent state would even consider. If it works in Utah, then it sure as heck will in New York.
You really nailed this one Reese. Obviously there are a lot of road blocks in terms of the existing infra but you really made it clear how much sense this makes. If you know the new york area, you know that a lot of people who live in the suburbs in westchester, north jersey, and long island, know each other really well. There is no option to start on the LIRR and finish in bergen county, for example, but the demand is definitely there. Hope to see this implemented in the near future (~20 years by new york standards).
The coolest thing about the planned proposal is that we already have trains that can run on all of the proposed trackage, The M8’s can run on overhead power and both over and under running 3rd rail, so in theory, this service wouldn’t even need new trains, though NJT would need to add high platforms at a number of their stations which should be added anyways.
The one connection left out of this video involve Metro North trips into Long Island, a trip I would have had to do in order to see my cousin's family before 1985 (now living near a station in CT). The new New Haven trains can use the third rail on Long Island so that problem already has a solution but riders on the Hudson and Harlem divisions wold have to ride the proposed connection to Penn Station then transfer to any train running out to Long Island. Another connection which may now be dead is through running these services onto the Interboro Express lines. This is now dead as light rail has been chosen for this line but at least there will be a transfer from the heavy rail lines onto it.
This video ate
I live in NJ. This sounds like a great idea.
As a "Long Islander" (who still hasn't used the recent Grand Central Station option, but probably plans on doing so in a month or two) the thought of real cross Manhattan trains is fascinating and wonderful. For many people, doing a simple thing like going to a Jets/Giants game in the Meadowlands requires a number of station changes including Pen Station which means going from one section of the station to the other. It's complicated and difficult. More importantly, the problem between Pen Station and Grand Central is why the LIRR had to make a special tunnel to Grand Central in the first place.
See yall in a century when we finish phases 1 and 2
Don’t forget that we can thru-run trains into SEPTA for a train from New York to Philadelphia without Amtrak
Interesting you used the class 700 because I always thought New York would benefit from a s Bahn System with similar rolling stock
Well to be fair the Class700 is a German train and is basically an S-Bahn type of train. I hate the sound that thing makes when it drives on third rail though, but it is a nice train
@@MrJimheeren indeed, it's pretty much the closest London has to an S-Bahn
Phase 1 should also consider a link to LIRR Jamaica/JFK AirTran station (and also beyond to LI spine center & south). Having regional services that access major airports would help make travel for visitors & locals flying out, easier & welcoming
It does, but the Lirr needs at less 2 more flyovers, because their operations from Jamaica is so pathetic right now
I understand the the lines initially chosen were for both simplicity (PW is basically separate from rest of LIRR) and urban coverage (in Bronx and Queens), but for regional connectivity it doesn’t quite make sense. The smartest corridor in terms of connections would be Jamaica to Newark, with extensions out to Mineola and Trenton later on. Yes it would skip the most densely populated inner areas of NYC and conflict with existing service, but it would link the region much more effectively. Then we could look at more options, but the main point is to increased service in the core area to give people ways to speed across the region then transfer from a local hub.
Reece, the only trains that can run into Grand Central Madison are LIRR's M7s and M9s, M3s are banned because of their incompatibilities with electronic components in the East Side Access tunnels and their bilevel trains as well as MNRR M8s are banned because of height restrictions!!!
I live in N. Jersey, walking distance to a NJ train station. To get to Newark Airport, which is about a 20 minute drive by car, it would require me to go to either Hoboken or Penn Station, and would take 1.5 hours including the transfers. Allowing easier access to all of the area airports by rail would be a huge improvement for travellers, saving them money, and reducing traffic around the airports.
Reece, MNRR M8s are only slated for AC sources with 60 Hertz frequencies, they can't run on 25 Hertz frequencies!!
Very cool video. I realized I rode through-run in Japan but I didn't know there was a name for it. I rode a local Yokohama train all the way into Tokyo and I was a little bit confused at why this local city train was able to take me all the way into tokyo without me getting up.
Montreal started an umbrella organization (aRTM) 'recently' that took control of inter-regional planning. All modes are considered and resource and finance planning.
Montreal has had a number of 'Central' stations in its history. Its 'Wall Street' had a central station. All of them were stub track or used in that manner. I don't know where the financial sector went, but there's no transcon train anymore either.
The financial industry moved to Bay Street in Toronto
The ARTM has its issues, but at least in theory it has the authority to integrate things
@@RMTransit the ARTM has apparently been sidelined by CDPQ infra and their vision of public-private partnership megaprojects that CAQ aligns with. PQ or libs would likely be more amenable to mass transportation oriented and not profit-development driven transit planning.
@@SonsOfSevenless REM de l'Est may be ARTM as CDPQ moves on to Québec City?
The politics are as much of cocktail as transportation.
Would love to see a similar video highlighting Line 15 in Paris and how the IBX falls short and put forth an alternative proposal.
I live in a small town in Bergen County. I can say that this would benefit our region. The most viable option to get to NYC from my town is driving a car, second is the NJT train but it's not that great. However, to get to NYC, you either need to take the GWB which is crowded. Or, you can choose to take the NJTP which could be congested at times.
So, yes, we **NEED** improvement to our rail. It will benefit everybody.
less jerky movement when you are on screen... good info
This would be a dream come true if this actually happened
This makes so much sense. It would revolutionise transport in NYC, just like it has in London. Of course, it'll take 20 years and $20 billion to make it happen. lol.
I live on the PW branch in Queens. I don’t go to jersey much, but increased service into the city would be awesome.
You know here in London some of my city brethren don’t know how lucky we are two RER style lines tube and national rail and a massive bus fleet a man complained that he has to wait 5-6 mins on the Battersea power station ,station ,station ,sta….. branch blimey Reece
Cheers mate
😊😊
I would argue that we have 3 RER style lines. The third is the Northern City Line. You could credibly argue that that is only half a line, in which case Paris currently has 4.5 RER lines and will have 5 once the line E extension is completed.
Imagine if the northern city could be extended south admit would involve some construction to connect up with one of the southeastern or southern lines Moorgate is the sticking point ie re routing the tunnels ,all the best 😊😊
Have you checked out the regional planning association’s fourth regional plan in NYC? They have a much more ambitious RER style plan
The RPA’s T-REX is really bad, too much infrastructure for too little benefit.
I think one of the tougher things with these proposals are the intergovernmental and inter-organizational agreements & contribution of funds that would be necessary between NYS (and potentially NYC), NJ and NJ Transit, the MTA, and more than likely USDOT. One of the reasons regional rail works so well in places like Paris is because it is all operated within one region (Ile De France), curtailing the bureaucratic intricacies of funding and agreements between track owners, train operators, and the surrounding municipal and state governments.
I remember the first time taking the LIRR to Grand Central. I’ve never seen a train station in New York so empty
Hey Reece, why did the RER concept not work in Philly. Septa used to have thru running routes labeled R1, R2, R3, etc. they abounded that convention and went back to the end stations denoting the name of the line. They said very few people road the train past CenterCity and many were confused by the R naming.
The few that would go past CC didn't go much farther, but it beat having to change to go to Penn Medicine, for example. Anyhow, the through-running in Philly was really so that they could have trains not sitting idle at Sub Station or Reading Terminal and could use them as outbound trains to, e.g., the airport.
I know this could not be done quickly, but a Hoboken - WTC/Lower Manhattan - Brooklyn/Atlantic Terminal line would be a huge plus. Paired with timed transfers at both Newark, Secacus, and Jamaica would create a greater network. I know it would cost an outrageous amount but it would get so many people off the subway going from Penn Station and Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan.
After That they could add an Crossrail level Project: connecting Atlantic with Hoboken Terminal with a few deep level Manhattan stations
Use the transregional express ideal, utilize trains between schedule to increase capacity and lessen points where is crowding occurs and without relying on so much with other transit to create pressure. This requires new links to complete the rail network, improve junctions, update and incorporate technology to handle capacity, trafficking, reliability and safety. You can use the existing hub and terminal points for direct service and short turn trains, make use of the yards and facility and get people closer to those areas in the tri state while using the new links to travel longer distance like Trenton and New Haven. It can help monitor and help maintain existing infrastructure instead of replacing them like the Hudson tunnel and the second avenue subway which is needed for improvement of the subway system
The best way to increase terminal capacity in any city is through running... I have no idea why HS2 in the UK requires a huge rebuild of Euston, it would likely be far cheaper and more beneficial to build Thamslink 2 and have all the more local services run through a tunnel to Victoria and then south / westwards providing additional connectivity to boot.
Some precedent for this has been set with the joint Metro-North/NJ Transit football train that ran from New Haven to Secaucus Junction on game days a few years ago.
As an NJ resident on the NEC I must say that a NJT NEC combined with the Metro North New Haven line would be a huge benefit. Currently NJ residents either have to use overpriced/delayed Amtrak, transfer between Penn and GC and add an unnecessary hour, or drive and either take the gridlocked GW or the long route on the tapan-zee.
Bravo! I watch these kinds of channels now so it seems like a bit of a no-brainer for NYC... *but* I used to commute from NJ to NYC regularly and occasionally hopped on Metro-North to visit family in CT. It never occurred to me at the time that through-service would be a good idea --- even when I was trekking across the city from Penn to Grand Central for one reason or another. That said, more people need to be exposed to this idea!
Could New York also benefit from an Overground-style service that allows people to go from one suburb to another without going through the centre?
That one is difficult given the lack of disused tracks / mismanaged services in NYC. In fact, the only lines I can think of which can be turned into an Overground-styled service are the industrial tracks to South Brooklyn Marine Terminal (planned for the IBX) and the disused Rockaway Beach Branch (planned for QueensLink), the latter which also makes sense to be part of the subway instead of LIRR.
I like rethinknycs plan
omg YES please!
I recently took the Harlem line North to White Plains and the Metro North line tunnel track maintenance is so terrible. Speeds are limited due to sloppy tracks.
Finally! About time that someone made a video like this. Just one thing about the tunnel in between Grand Central and Penn Station. Since there's already tail tracks south of Grand Central, I would extend them to the existing LIRR tunnels into Penn Station. That would reduce the amount of new tunnel required for a thru-running regional rail system.
Heya, I’m one of the report’s authors! You’re touching on an interesting point here-a tunnel from Penn Station could connect to Grand Central in a few different possible ways. We actually had a lot of discussion on whether it made sense to connect Penn Station to the Metro-North lower level or to the deep LIRR caverns (the latter of which is the one with the long tail tracks). We eventually reasoned that connecting to the Metro-North lower level would be more practical since the Hudson and Harlem lines wouldn’t be able to through-run to New Jersey otherwise.
One thing I will say, though, is that it would actually be best to build a new tunnel out of Penn rather than just connecting Grand Central to the existing LIRR tunnels. And that’s because connecting to the existing tunnels would mean the trains would all have to share just four tracks, which would mean the frequencies couldn’t be as high and trains would be slower since they’d have to wait for signals-and one delayed train would be able to delay the entire system. So what we proposed was specifically connecting Grand Central to tracks 1 through 5 at Penn, which are the tracks that will connect to the new Gateway tunnels. So that way, there’d be two main service patterns through Penn-some would use the two sets while of existing tunnels, while the rest would use the new Gateway tunnels and this proposed tunnel to Grand Central, and these two sets of trains wouldn’t have to share tracks with each other at all.
Hey, thanks for seeing my comment! This is true, and I didn't actually think about how LIRR and MNRR Trains would have to share the tunnels. That said, I also didn't mention thru-running of LIRR and MNRR trains onto NJT tracks, because I would make that a longer term goal. First, get the LIRR and MNRR trains thru-running, since they are both a part of the MTA, and make them more integrated, with OMNY for universal fare payment, and more similar rolling stock. Then, get NJT services thru-running. Just one thing. I saw a proposal from a commenter on another video on NYC's Commuter Rail Networks, that called for merging LIRR and MNRR into one company, and seperating them from the MTA, so that that company could focus on Regional Rail, and the MTA could focus on Rapid Transit. I wanted to know your thoughts about that. Thanks!
This is an exciting proposal. I do think it would make more sense to build a tunnel under the narrows and run it through Brooklyn because the Staten Railway uses the same rolling stock as the R. But I love the idea of taking a train from Staten Island to Fulton even if I had to transfer there or taking in a tunnel directly to Grand Central after making a stop in the Financial District.
Also need to talk about the different third rail systems
Absolutely agree with the idea however there are multiple electrical voltages in use 25kv 60hz and 11kv 16.7-60hz AC wires used by New Jersey Transit and Amtrak 750v DC Third Rail Bottom and Top Contact use by Metro-North and Long Island Railroad. The solution here is ordering Class 710 derivative that can comply with United States FRA Regulations or more M8s the US FRA compliant version that's identical to Class 710 dual voltage AC/DC trains or buying Class 755 derivative followed by a Euro 9000 derived locomotive to run on NYC RER and unelectrified territory. Current trains capable of doing this are ALP-45DP P32DC-AM and LIRR DM30AC but not multiple units which is why a Class 755 derivative dual door due to Morris and Essex lines having low platforms is needed for RER NYC. 4:39 that is sometimes carried out as Metro-North train to the game.
6:49 that is called the gateway tunnel construction started this year
Yes, multiple power accepting trains are necessary
your arguments at 11:15 are so spot on and the big budgets but short sightedness of politicians and the public have been a missed opportunity for so long. these big budget transit options would transform new york from a great city to a super city, and it would drastically increase the convenience of people across the region and contribute massively to the economy, and property values even outside the city!
imagine how much more your place would be worth in new jersey if you can easily hop on a train to brookyln, connecticut and long island and it would take you 1/4 the time and expense to get there by car. just one small example. or being able to go upstate or to the catskills region from long island by train. the stations already exist, they just need to be linked, like NYC did with the 3 independent and private subway lines which are now the NYC subway system.
Just integrating the existing commuter rail services would be a game changer, to do an RER would completely transform the region from Trenton to New Haven
Let’s make this a political issue for the 2024 election!
As someone who lives along the Raritan Valley Line, I would like to critique the ETA's proposal for improving this line. For those who don't know the RVL uses the Conrail Lehigh Line between Aldene and Newark to connect the old CNJ mainline to the Northeast Corridor, thus sharing the tracks with freight trains. It works well enough, baring the occasional major delay, but I don't think this line will work for high frequency service.
The ETA is proposing that the Lehigh Line receive new tracks to expand capacity, along with electrfication, but I think the better solution is reactivate the old CNJ Main Line from Aldene to Elizabeth, where new grade separated ramps could be built to allow trains to curve onto the North East Corridor. A shuttle train could continue to serve the two stations on the Lehigh Line: Kean Univeristy and Roselle Park before termianting at Cranford. There are several benefits to this: 1) high frequency RVL (and in the future Allentown Amtrak) trains can avoid congested freight corridors 2)no need to fight freight companies on electrfication 3) more circumferential connections from points on the RVL to points south on the NEC and NJCL without going through Newark 4) allows more direct service from the RVL to New York 5) direct RVL connection to the Newark Airtrain while increasing the amount of service between the airport, newark penn, seccaucus, and NYP.
It would be a good one, better regional rail is so so so important
All you really need in terms of capital investment are changes to some platform heights (Perth Amboy, Little Silver, Monmouth Park and Jersey Avenue, as well as a number of platforms on the Hoboken Division) and adjustments to electrification systems (extending the third rail along the Empire Connector with a third rail changeover partway through and upgrading the Amtrak electrification to 60Hz) and you can get thru-running started very easily. I'm not too sure thru services need to go all the way out to the ends of the lines or use shorter terminals such as Matawan, Jersey Avenue Montclair State and Summit on the NJT side, and Stamford, Croton Harmon, Great Neck, Hicksville, Hempstead, Freeport, Long Beach and Far Rockaway on the MTA side. Like how in Tokyo some services thru-run onto the subway and some services continue to terminate at locations like Asakusa, Ueno, Akihabara, Tokyo, Shinagawa, Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro.
easier idea, would it be possible to pick to smallest loading gauge ie tunnel size, form factor, and order standardized equipment that could unify metro north and lirr, as well as run to new jersey. as it exists currently the lirr equipment doesnt have pantographs, the new haven equipment has been shown to run on amtrak voltages thanks to shore line east using m8s, im not sure if you would stil need dmus for certain branch lines. I'd like to see a video going over what equipment runs where and would it would take to unify the network as it exists today.
Thats what I discuss in the video, a universally compatible train. Likely something like an enhanced M8!
You neglected to discuss how in the world it would even be possible since there are three different railroads with three different fare structures involved. And we all know how easy it is to get agencies in New Jersey to agree on anything with agencies in New York.
While the New Haven line going to Penn Sta might be worthwhile they could and should start by bringing Hudson line trains into Penn. Amtrak already uses Hudson line tracks going north to Albany and beyond but of course that could be done without any massive spending, so no pas to grease.
It's nice crayons on a map but the GCT to Penn tunnel is practically impossible given all the subterranean obstacles. Few people would use it anyway.
It's very much possible, albeit difficult if you run into the lower level tracks. GCT is closer to more jobs, so it would likely be well used as well.
@@TMC_BCNo there's GCT facilities down there, plus the IRT subway is in the way.
@@Tokkemon It's possible go around them, I have maps of the area in question.
They might not need a steep incline to get from Grand Central to Penn Station.
They could build a ginormous loop like Amtrak trains use to get from the west side rail line into Penn Station.
There might not be space in midtown to build that, though.
The thing is I'm not sure why anyone would necessarily want to travel from Secaucus to White Plains or or say from Port Washington to New Haven. As a native New Yorker, I would like to see more service that link the outer boroughs more efficiently. At present the region's public transit is geared towards getting people into Manhattan. Your video is about moving people across the region, but just as important is moving people across the city. It takes my son two hours to go from his apartment in Brooklyn to get to my house in the NW Bronx by public transportation. It takes me about 45 minutes by car to get to him. It takes him an hour by public transportation to visit his sister on the other side of brooklyn, the journey which takes about 30 minutes by car.
I’m from Westchester and this would be transformative. Many of these trips are only attractive to make by car (taking the train to grand central then a subway trip with a transfer to Penn is really not attractive at all compared to driving) plus connection wait times. If I go somewhere in New Jersey I wouldn’t even consider the train right now but this would make me consider it
Worth noting that while the physical infrastructure necessary for this is relatively minimal, the political infrastructure required would be considerable. New Jersey Transit (which runs the trains to New Jersey) and the MTA (which runs MetroNorth and LIRR) are state agencies of two different states that usually don't get along. Every step of this would be a massive fight over who gets to run which trains and how to share the revenue and the cost of construction. This is a big part of why it took so long to get started on the Hudson Tunnel project.
@anscheisc That's not entirely true. NJT and Metro North operate two lines together that run through Bergen County, NJ, into Rockland and Orange Counties, NY. It's possible. As for the Hudson Tunnel project, that was more about funding and financial situations for each state at different times and stages of development and proposal. The Federal Gov't promised a certain amount of money, then backed out. NJ & NY, at one point, couldn't agree to funding if the Federal Gov't didn't take on a more prominent role in the project. NJ & NY work more closely than what most people believe. For something like this work, I see the Port of Authority of NY & NJ expanding its role as the overseer for transportation in the region. The PA of NY/NJ runs the Path trains (subway) between the states, airports (LGA, JFK, & EWR), and bridges and tunnels. This agency has been in place for the region since the 1920s. People will work together when they want to, and it benefits them.
@@dougadkins7006 I agree that the Port Authority would end up having to run a lot of this, and given how utterly dysfunctional the Port Authority often is I don't really see that as an encouraging sign
Pls remember one thing not every train has to go through the town center just like go transit
On Thameslink, the southern end shares tracks with Southern and Gatwick Express services that terminate at Victoria, and South Eastern services that terminate at Charing Cross and Cannon Street; and the northern end shares tracks with East Midlands services that terminate at St Pancras, Great Northern services that terminate at Kings Cross and Moorgate, and LNER services that terminate at Kings Cross.
On the Elizabeth line Line, the western end shares tracks with Great Western and Heathrow Express services that terminate at Paddington, and the eastern end shares tracks with Greater Anglia services that terminate at Liverpool Street.
Good thing New York doesn't have a town centre ;)
The East Side Access was a great project, but why do I feel it would have been better to connect the tracks to GCT's lower level loop tracks rather than having a separate station? It would have made through running much easier.
Ay I live on the Port Washington line. gotta rep.
I've been working on this for years
- A tunnel through Financial District to Penn Station and Grand Central for Long Island to Westchester Services
- Long Island to New Jersey Services use existing lines
- Many services to allow everyone to take transit in the region
- Jamaica and Penn Station should be the regional hubs
- Fairer fares
- But should Penn Access go to New Jersey? I might want to force a transfer at Penn Station for trains here to go to Long Island
Forcing transfers is rarely good. There should be more regional hubs than just Penn and Jamaica - extending more rail lines to Secaucus seems like a good idea!
@@RMTransit The only transfers that would be forced are people going from New Jersey to Westchester. And with an easy transfer upstairs or downstairs it wouldn’t be hard. Also, how do you intend for a big amount of people to not transfer at all most services would only be going to one branch anyway
@@collectivelyimprovingtrans2460Through-running is mainly for operational efficiency, and while direct service isn’t given to every branch, it makes to sense to pair different branches to only one branch on the other side for easier timetabling (meaning it’s easier to passengers to memorize, especially if on a clockface). Terminating trains at Penn is difficult, hence where the operational efficiency comes in.
@@TMC_BC You misunderstand me. I do want to pair branches with another, but his priority seems to be New Jersey to Westchester. I want this to focus on a bunch of other services though, none of which terminate at Penn Station (maybe Sunnyside)
these projects also need to include re-electrification of the Metro North in CT on the Danbury Branch, That is a not at all small region that probably could greatly benefit from more frequent service. Embarrassingly this branch used to be electrified and in the 1960s was de-electrified by bonehead management and switched to diesels. Lots of people drive over to Southeast to take that train into the city.
I think the biggest challenge would be getting MTA, Port Authority and NJ Transit to work together. And ConnDOT as I think the New Haven line is partially operated by CT.
All of this would be really nice and honestly I'm all for it. I do foresee the unions representing the workers of all three railroads, especially operating personnel, putting up a fight to this.
The NY Metro Area is long overdue for change and we also need to change the culture on how long and how expensive transit projects take to get done.
If NY/NJ can come together to create a governing agency to run (please not the Port Authority) the combined NJT, MN and LI system then it's off to the races. Expand OMNY for all.
With myself it would definitely expand my options for where I would like to work for my current job.
I just feel this is another regional plan pipe dream or something that will take them decades to implement.
For this to be a true RER, the trains must make multiple stops in Manhattan. Given the width of Manhattan, I don’t think that’s practical. However, extending the Hoboken line to the east side of Manhattan and connecting to Grand Central (Madison) to allow for through running would allow for multiple stops and can also partially obviate the need for the 2nd ave subway. Yes, it would cost more, but it would also distribute the load away from Penn