Isn't the process of holding and then releasing ourselves from silent gravamen just the life of a Christian in general? Don't we all take a bunch of positions on trust initially, and as we grow in maturity of our faith we see (sometimes years later) why somethings are described or handed down to us the way they are. There's nothing deceptive about it, they are indications that we are works in progress.
Thanks for the video Paul. What you are saying matches up with the early chapters of Carl Trueman's book "Crisis of Confidence," and this need to submit to others rather than expecting that we would be experts on everything, or that we are always right and infallible while all that came before was wrong or suspect.
“Our general aim therefore in this undertaking was, not to gratify this or that party in any their unreasonable demands; but to do that, which to our best understandings we conceived might most tend to the preservation of Peace and Unity in the Church; the procuring of Reverence, and exciting of Piety and Devotion in the Publick Worship of God; and the cutting off occasion from them that seek occasion of cavil or quarrel against the Liturgy of the Church.” Excerpt from the preface to the 1662 Book of Common Prayed of the Church of England.
Hi Paul, It's an interesting topic. Submitting to the church's confessional authority feels too much like what the Roman Catholics teach, Bible plus tradition. I attend services at a PCA and a Catholic Abbey. When I take Eucharist at the abbey, I do so on my terms according to my convictions, I do not broadcast them but partake silently. We all practice our faith true to our understanding of scripture and experience of the Lord, and we keep many things to ourselves for the peace and edification of the local body! We do this knowing God alone will determine the state of our hearts/deeds. Pastor Bill @ Love Song By the way, we went to Italy 6 yrs ago and loved it. Happy trails!
The only thing I would say here is that it is only mostly true. This is really common in the way that Paul describes. However, there are bad actors that have used this idea and manipulate it for their own purposes. Much of the past few synods have been trying to figure out how to deal with those bad actors. Not everyone wrestling is a bad actor, but this doesn’t mean the bad actors don’t exist. They certainly do.
Rowan Williams reflects on this in terms of stability and the "otherness of others" when he says" To put it a bit differently, the promise to live in stability is the most drastic way imaginable of recognising the otherness of others - just as in marriage." "Stability requires this daily discipline of mending; it is the opposite of an atmosphere in which one’s place always has to be fought for, where influence and hierarchy are a matter of unceasing struggle."
@@jimluebke3869 Yep, that's the Physics approach. However, I'm not sure that, in this case, Physics relates well to being a Christian. Christians are great at living with paradox: Trinity, Theodicy, Incarnation etc. and even to live as a human F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." Maybe stability should be included in the list of Christian paradoxes?
my silent gravamen with the CRC is a cautionary tale. I have evolved into a "None"for lack of a better word - a religious minimalist-or more accurately a christian essentialist. It has brought me to an "open place" to quote the psalmist. A place of authenticity and contentment.
I was distracted by the sun slowly encroaching on your video. Luckily you were able to escape just in time. I don’t think anyone can choose to believe something false because that would be pretending. Choosing to believe about what might be unknowable is what I think you are talking about though.
Bishop Barron (iirc) defines "faith" as what happens when you know someone well enough, and although you don't know everything about them perfectly, you trust them about the parts that you don't know well. Faith seems to be a sufficient answer to those issues where you are not in firm and unshakeable disagreement with orthodoxy. Mere doubts don't rise to this level, or even areas where you are somewhat far from being convinced. For what it's worth, it seems like something like gravamina are probably only necessary when your natural impulse would be to advocate for something that directly contradicts orthodoxy, to the point that you have to agree to be silent about it. On the other hand, there is a danger that a disagreement on a major issue could lead to further and even more troubling doubts -- if you're not convinced by clear Biblical teaching on one point, upon how many other points are you not convinced by clear Biblical teaching?
@@williambranch4283 In the Sistine Chapel, Adam certainly looks much less able to make a difference than G-d. Do you think that that fresco might have originally been titled "The Salvation of Adam", but renamed to "The Creation of Adam" when "Salvation" was too hot-button an issue? Seems like that would have been in keeping with the idea that artists create their best work from live issues.
@@jimluebke3869 The Pieta shows me that Michelangelo was a great sculptor at 23! You know as well as I, artists like Leonardo and Michelangelo created their human images from Italian paisans they saw every day ;-)
Keep hearing that word authenticity in many contexts. It reminds me again of how Western culture is still indebted to Heidegger and Nietzsche. What will be the next Zeitgeist?
13:12 @PVK Charles Taylor at 92 years old recently give a talk about this very subject. The title of the video the interview relates to language but in it he talks about this issue.
I would slightly edit "you choose to believe" to "you choose to say you believe." I'm surprised it's not more obvious to more people how this emphasis on creeds and propositions will ultimately undermine any/all institutions that rely on them. We might forget that the creeds of the past were reinforced with the power of the sword. A silent gravamen sounds a lot like "I had my fingers crossed" when we were kids.
Have you ever run a document review for an engineering procedure, product specification, or the like? Despite the fact that such documents are supposedly the product of objective reality, getting people to agree on 100% of it is an _ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE._ Getting everyone to 90% is as good as you're going to get sometimes. Then proceeding in something like "conciliar unity" after it has been signed off, is necessary for coordinated action. There aren't many swords these days, but social enforcement mechanisms are just as much in play -- much as they were back then as well, as one might forget.
@jimluebke3869 I take your point and basically agree with it, getting any group on the same page is a cat herding project in pretty much any domain. My point though was really more of a prediction, which can't be proven or disproven, and only time will tell, but that this emphasis on creeds, particularly for institutions that claim to act as moral arbiters, will ultimately be the undoing of those institutions. With an increasing emphasis on individual conscience (Paul's authenticity) in our interconnected pluralistic world, institutions that can somehow de-emphasize tribal marker distinctions and focus more on our shared humanity will have better long term prospects. Again, in my opinion. This prediction may be wrong and contradicts the current environment of drawing hard boundaries and demanding overt allegiance (Paul's submission). We're seeing this everywhere and it's deeply destabilizing to every institution. I'm predicting these movements are sowing the seeds of their own destruction. I'm not a practicing Christian, but I think the core Christian message of love your enemy is ultimately True.
@@roderickhare "You might like" algorithms allow likeminded people to find each other online. I think the future isn't necessarily a atomized as you fear, but it may look like Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash._ Loyalties in that story were only accidentally with geographical neighbors, they were tighter with creedal neighbors, because trust was higher. The Internet allows smaller and smaller subcultures to cluster together. We'll see what the optimal size for these groupings will end up being.
@@roderickhare The core Christian message is "love your enemy" ??? I've been in creedal and uncreedal churches and none of them even had that in the list of things they want you to sign on to. So you have your own idea what the core Christian message is. That's a popular position.
This concept of silent gravamin is very relatable as a confessional Lutheran (convert). We don't have a gravamin system officially but I've had a silent gravamin for quite a bit on closed communion. It was my largest difficulty coming in (and still is). I've always been very Ecunenical; in post Christian Canada I need all the Christian friends I can get. (And a wife too, if I limited marriage prospects to Lutherans I would die alone.) I can understand why a lot of Christians beleive differently and it feels unrealistic to demand extensive confessional subscription (I understand limits for belief in the real presence though). Us confessional Lutherans almost walk around like we have the magisrerial umph of the Papal Catholics/Orthodox when we don't we're supposedly sola scriptura. I submit to my church's doctrine/practice of closed communion (in both helping with the altar and visiting other churches) because my agreement and alignment with Lutheran Church Canada is so so close. That and my backup denomination (Anglican Church in North America) doesn't have any parishes within an hour transit commute. I might end up a very Lutheran ACNA Anglican in the future but for now I am commited to my Lutheran church and am very involved as a lay office-bearer.
Every Lutheran pastor I've heard quotes St. Paul's warnings about "eating and drinking to their own d**nation" when they are discouraging walk-ins from coming up to the rail. Those who are still interested are advised in writing to talk to the pastors first. This seems to be a workable vetting process. A lot of Lutheran denominations are very aware, even after 500 years, of their historic role as a counterweight to flawed Catholicism (both big C and little c). The very nature of communion was so thoroughly tied to the branchings of the Reformation, it's inevitable that those with a different understanding of what was happening would want to shield others from what consequences that might arise from getting it wrong.
Sunrises and sunsets go low-frequency light at the horizon, to high-frequency light closer to the zenith. What you're presenting there is unnatural. Why is that?
I think the content of this video must be extremely important if one is trying to understand the divide between church going people and non-church going people, because as a non-church going person, I truly don't understand the concepts going on in this video.
I think a very low resolution interpretation of what PVK is saying in this video is that those who are non-church going people are just choosing not to submit their wills to church leadership. I'm confident PVK knows all too well how and why some people's deep mistrust of their individual churches, based on either personal experience or historical scandals, etc, results in people who do want to submit to God but are wary of submitting to a church. In fact a can name a few TLC people whom I see as having this experience.
That is exactly how I feel, perfectly willing to submit to God, but unable to see any relationship between that and submitting to church leadership. I also find the way Paul is talking about "belief" to be contradictory to my understanding of the typical definition of belief, i.e. that belief is not something we can choose. If someone asks if you believe something, they're asking you to examine the inner workings of your mind and report back your findings; they're not asking you to decide anything.
10:23 this submission rather than being convinced (pisteuo) was the catalyst for Tom Harpur and the break in Faith/trust. Hard to be authentic if you must lie about your true heart? Hard to find guidance if you must deny your doubts?
I am pondering the thumbnail... Are you saying, "members like our brother in Canada still have a place in the CRC if they are willing to choose the authority of the church" ?
The gravamen fight is about what it means to be human...a difference in internal worlds. I heard a lot about "honest wrestling" here in the comments and from Synod...Wrestling doesn't always end with strength...Jacob was left with a limp after wrestling with God. The Christians I admire who have really wrestled have some sort of "limp" in their theological understandings but are the most contented and peaceful people I know. I noticed a lot of the speakers at Synod emphasizing "without reservation" were young...
If one reviews the covenant for office bearers, note how many times the idea 'submit' or 'submission' appears around the concept of 'We heartily believe and will promote and defend their doctrines... faithfully" . Yes. By making my mind and notions have greater authority than the church is the opposite of humility.
Sensible comments. I agree. And it's how I always understood things (and will continue to operate). I just wish this sensibility was more reflected in our covenant and church order. In my reading, it is not. Members are allowed to submit and simply agree; officebears are called to something much higher: Hearty believe. No reservations allowed. If I'm wrong, I'd love to have it pointed out to me.
From "Got questions": 'The Bible never uses the term visible church or invisible church. But the idea of the visible church versus the invisible church is a natural result of a biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation. The visible church is the expression of Christianity that people can see: the gathering and practices of the individuals in various church buildings on Sundays. The invisible church is the true church, which only God can see: born-again believers, past, present, and future. Because not everyone who attends church or performs religious deeds is saved, the visible church includes unbelievers. The invisible church is comprised of the redeemed and sealed by God." The use of terms like "born again" and "sealed" gestures vaguely towards certain denominations here, but mostly this answer is what you might call _Mere Christianity._
@@jimluebke3869 The Bible doesn't use the term Trinity either, so following your logic we can't use it either? I know you can say, and believe that there was an invisible church that was no where and yet everywhere, but all this is just assumptions on your part. If I ask you how you know this is certain, you can't appeal to anything expect your own preference. You certainly can't appeal to Austrian men in the 16th century, as that would just be being the question. So at the end of the day, you assume your own personal belief system, and you assume your own sole interpretation of text is correct. That's a very weak argument.
I asked a Christian friend, "Can you pray to God using David's prayer in the Bible"? He answered, "Why not? David is recognized as a prophet by Jews and some Christians. I said, OK, Please read his prayer. Psalm 44 : 23 Wake up, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Get up! Do not reject us forever. Then I asked My friend - Don't you respect your Bible's prayers? My friend was really shocked and asked me to continue this lovely conversation later. But he never did. I always say to him that the Bible is corrupted and Jews and Christians fabricated it on purpose. I hope one day, before it is too late, he opens his eyes, follows Jesus, and becomes a Muslim.
Listening to this guy one would believe that we are grafted into our denomination and not directly God's vine. If you disagree with what your church teaches, then you can continue if it does not bother you. Of course you can leave that church and find a church that is more acceptable. This view of the denomination or church hierarchy comes between us and God stems from man believing he is somehow God.
Human beings are only able to make choices at the margins. You can't force yourself 100%, but then, your life is impoverished if you don't have the willpower to push yourself to any degree.
There are multiple types of love. When you fall in love as a teenager, you don't choose it. When you commit yourself to self-sacrificing for the betterment of a woman and your family until you die, that's another type of love and it's something you choose. But those two types of love are simply homonyms, and it just causes confusion when people conflate them. I guess a similar thing is going on with the word "belief" in this video, but I'm not familiar with the alternate definition, so I just find it confusing.
@@jimluebke3869 already done. Early relationship lust is not a foundation for a family, of course. This is why the idea one would choose to believe in God, rings so true to me.
The silent gravamen makes perfect sense to me. Given how many ideas individual Catholics have within the framework of the greater Church, it’s quite a relatable issue for us. And there’s always going to be a Pope someone will have a problem with 😂 It’s so human
Tom Harpur went so far as to write books. Emerson gave a speech. Believers are a technicolor blend of accepted tenets. Devotion to our path grows with practice, it does not come from rationality. St John of the Cross. Conformity and authenticity do not need to be separated? I give the Carmelites as example. Luther wanted replacement, Theresa of Avila saw a need to reform, from within. Doubt is simply opening to new understanding. A first step to an open mind? Wholeness. Healing and 'to be whole' are the same word in German.
Ayaan's suggestion that college students are vis-a-vis Hamas because they protest the mass killings of Palestinians really delegitimizes her as a serious thinker in my opinion. Like really, Ayaan? You think that the only reason they are protesting is because they hate jews? Any sensible person would know that is obviously not the case. JBP makes a similar move that might be even more cringe and disappointing, given the high intellectual standard he supposedly holds himself to.
@@mostlydead3261 I did not deny any antisemitism. Obviously, that exists but to say that their protests are fueled by antisemitism is completely disingenuous. These kids (and we all) see families being blown to pieces every day and would prefer that not happen anymore - especially in our name via government spending.
Okay. What if it has to do with how my children are (not) being catechized and I don’t want to wait 3 years because they’ll be three years older by then. So it’s not just authenticity but also how my children and soon to be young men are being raised in the faith.
People still call plumbers at random instead of finding the most experienced one. If you submit to the church you found on Craigslist then you deserve what you get, and if you don’t like the work done (possibly dangerous) there might be a way to make it right or maybe not.
This sounds very CRC to me. Probably not useful to reuse the word Gravamen again though as it adds to confusion. If people want brighter lines with a Dutch flavour the URC awaits.
"I don't know what church she goes to and I'm not that interested in finding out" Oh, I think nowadays it's a fairly harmless passtime, like knowing which team your favorite college football player got drafted to. In fact I rejoice at how good-natured that kind of jostling has become. In some ways it's safer to leave theological debate (with all its ineffables and spotty evidence) in the hands of disagreeable people. Such people enjoy debate for its own sake, and would actually be disappointed if the debate was unavailable. People who would feel stricken if someone whose opinion they valued failed to bring a good argument, or fell silent completely. These debates should be kept away from people who insist on unity at any cost. The costs they have imposed, historically, have been quite high.
Maybe submitting to the church isn't useful anymore, I know this is in the context of the crc,this is more of a tangent but really you can just leave and join another denomination that aligns with what you conscience is telling you. It doesn't have to be political I see a lot of schism over time and I think its a product of American culture our individuality, if you think your community is wrong why should anyone submit to that? People renegotiate all the time I don't think that makes Christianity meaningless. i think it over time people make decisions based of what lies within their heart an inner coviction to do what is good. politics and the acquisition of influence and power set aside.
"The principal marks or characteristics of the true Church are, her Unity, Sanctity, Catholicity, and Apostolicity, to which may be added the Infallibility of her teaching and the Perpetuity of her existence." Gibbons, James; James Garton. Faith of Our Fathers (Annotated) . Garton Publishing. Kindle Edition.
"Unity of government is not less essential to the Church of Christ than unity of doctrine. Our Divine Saviour never speaks of His Churches, but of His Church. He does not say: “Upon this rock I will build my Churches,” but “upon this rock I will build My Church,”19 from which words we must conclude that it never was His intention to establish or to sanction various conflicting denominations, but one corporate body, with all the members united under one visible Head; for as the Church is a visible body, it must have a visible head." Gibbons, James; James Garton. Faith of Our Fathers (Annotated) . Garton Publishing. Kindle Edition.
That's such a California backyard, in a California suburb, where the roof lines are so close. Those fences just wouldn't survive anywhere that snows, and places that were settled before automobiles seem not to have houses squared-off next to one another despite the best efforts of Freemasons that supposedly ran the place.
No, it's deferring to another. If the cop says you should drive more carefully, is doing so lying even if you think you can drive faster safely? That's not lying, that's submitting to authority
@@PaulVanderKlay In your scenario it's not lying. But, if I have wholeheartedly promised without reservation that I believe I cannot drive faster safely... Then it is lying to say I believe that when I really don't even if my actions (submitting to the speed limit) are the same.
Submission to the church is a must as the church teaches and judges, but Christianity has not got the teaching in the NT, as confessions should be the same else there is not one faith. Christianity is taught to Christians instead of Christ of the NT, but accepting false teaching will not yield salvation, but it will yield Churchianity. A precise religion with a confession of faith to suit, but not an accurate one as I have found the church is limited in examination of its confession, but the truth is in the NT. I have sought the one faith and found it, which leaves me alienated from every church, until that is people do reason their faith accurately to admit false beliefs, and that means confessions must be examined against the teaching I have discovered. My Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' is easily accessible now, whilst my draft book isn't, and the conversation is well overdue.
I had exsperince of all salesmen have all levels of mastering emotions to need it being sold, lots of good can't roof very good hell I never sold much by eductions tricks like license specified guarantee workers his babble like travel require license for safety funny like fools gold puppets sharecroppers king tax get blind real quick with blind and deaf law emotions lose friendship real soon then lawyers enter tax thrones just need earning tax for weird freedoms to play ownership monopoly games need real owner to make deals for day renter by slave work cheap hard work for old bodies have many younger tales has slavery easy for durable body dust with proper cement straws create stronger babble walls. My babble church also trys but God never enters time clubs anymore taverns more honest with drinks workman blues can laugh at life babble trys to empty buckets never can be your time to go then timelessness your lawyer never lose your eternal spark no flesh and blood solve why when where at this time of blind mortal fears will finally be awoke to Universal Adam does laugh dreams toys still left in time still happenings get slower slower slower effects till stop sign stop old time can't join timelessness till mystery found.
"Silent Gravamen" - excellent, now I have a phrase for what I often think.
Isn't the process of holding and then releasing ourselves from silent gravamen just the life of a Christian in general? Don't we all take a bunch of positions on trust initially, and as we grow in maturity of our faith we see (sometimes years later) why somethings are described or handed down to us the way they are. There's nothing deceptive about it, they are indications that we are works in progress.
I so appreciate Paul making us Protestants so much more catholic.
I guess other current events have distracted him from his common query, "When does the Protest end?"
I prefer "more historically protestant/reformed"
@@jimluebke3869depends on what you're protesting, the repeal of a law in the HRE, the council of Trent, Vatican 2, etc.
😂Same thought!
A "different plane of perception" creates a judgement of "morally and utterly lost." cheers
Thx again Paul for being so open and honest and forthright. ❤
Thanks for the video Paul. What you are saying matches up with the early chapters of Carl Trueman's book "Crisis of Confidence," and this need to submit to others rather than expecting that we would be experts on everything, or that we are always right and infallible while all that came before was wrong or suspect.
You must submit or you become a church of one. The Ultimate Protestant.
Sounds like a challenge 😉
@@PresidentFoxman Reality show for this Little Corner?
@@jimluebke3869 I’d be up for it, but there would be some still competition. Especially if we have Mcmosav and Sam in the mix 😆
Submitting to your church is freeing.
“Our general aim therefore in this undertaking was, not to gratify this or that party in any their unreasonable demands; but to do that, which to our best understandings we conceived might most tend to the preservation of Peace and Unity in the Church; the procuring of Reverence, and exciting of Piety and Devotion in the Publick Worship of God; and the cutting off occasion from them that seek occasion of cavil or quarrel against the Liturgy of the Church.” Excerpt from the preface to the 1662 Book of Common Prayed of the Church of England.
Hi Paul, It's an interesting topic. Submitting to the church's confessional authority feels too much like what the Roman Catholics teach, Bible plus tradition. I attend services at a PCA and a Catholic Abbey. When I take Eucharist at the abbey, I do so on my terms according to my convictions, I do not broadcast them but partake silently. We all practice our faith true to our understanding of scripture and experience of the Lord, and we keep many things to ourselves for the peace and edification of the local body! We do this knowing God alone will determine the state of our hearts/deeds. Pastor Bill @ Love Song
By the way, we went to Italy 6 yrs ago and loved it. Happy trails!
Good to hear from you Bill.
The only thing I would say here is that it is only mostly true. This is really common in the way that Paul describes. However, there are bad actors that have used this idea and manipulate it for their own purposes. Much of the past few synods have been trying to figure out how to deal with those bad actors. Not everyone wrestling is a bad actor, but this doesn’t mean the bad actors don’t exist. They certainly do.
Rowan Williams reflects on this in terms of stability and the "otherness of others" when he says" To put it a bit differently, the promise to live in stability is the most
drastic way imaginable of recognising the otherness of others - just as in marriage."
"Stability requires this daily discipline of mending; it is the opposite of an atmosphere in which one’s place always has to be fought for, where influence and hierarchy are a matter of unceasing struggle."
Stability requires restoring forces against change.
@@jimluebke3869 Yep, that's the Physics approach. However, I'm not sure that, in this case, Physics relates well to being a Christian. Christians are great at living with paradox: Trinity, Theodicy, Incarnation etc. and even to live as a human F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."
Maybe stability should be included in the list of Christian paradoxes?
my silent gravamen with the CRC is a cautionary tale. I have evolved into a "None"for lack of a better word - a religious minimalist-or more accurately a christian essentialist. It has brought me to an "open place" to quote the psalmist. A place of authenticity and contentment.
I was distracted by the sun slowly encroaching on your video. Luckily you were able to escape just in time. I don’t think anyone can choose to believe something false because that would be pretending. Choosing to believe about what might be unknowable is what I think you are talking about though.
Living a lie is tough but not impossible if you put your mind to it :)
@@PresidentFoxman “my child would never do that “ is a common phrase I’ve heard from such people.
Bishop Barron (iirc) defines "faith" as what happens when you know someone well enough, and although you don't know everything about them perfectly, you trust them about the parts that you don't know well.
Faith seems to be a sufficient answer to those issues where you are not in firm and unshakeable disagreement with orthodoxy. Mere doubts don't rise to this level, or even areas where you are somewhat far from being convinced.
For what it's worth, it seems like something like gravamina are probably only necessary when your natural impulse would be to advocate for something that directly contradicts orthodoxy, to the point that you have to agree to be silent about it.
On the other hand, there is a danger that a disagreement on a major issue could lead to further and even more troubling doubts -- if you're not convinced by clear Biblical teaching on one point, upon how many other points are you not convinced by clear Biblical teaching?
Sola Gratia. Scripture doesn't convince me.
@@williambranch4283 In the Sistine Chapel, Adam certainly looks much less able to make a difference than G-d.
Do you think that that fresco might have originally been titled "The Salvation of Adam", but renamed to "The Creation of Adam" when "Salvation" was too hot-button an issue?
Seems like that would have been in keeping with the idea that artists create their best work from live issues.
@@jimluebke3869 The Pieta shows me that Michelangelo was a great sculptor at 23! You know as well as I, artists like Leonardo and Michelangelo created their human images from Italian paisans they saw every day ;-)
Keep hearing that word authenticity in many contexts. It reminds me again of how Western culture is still indebted to Heidegger and Nietzsche. What will be the next Zeitgeist?
Sure, Heidegger and Nietzsche deserve some payback for what they did to Western Civilization.
This is helpful. Thank you.
13:12 @PVK Charles Taylor at 92 years old recently give a talk about this very subject. The title of the video the interview relates to language but in it he talks about this issue.
youtu dot be/xcQhJgvoOa4?si=bHIlPb-8RHA81csd “Where Language Can Lead” ft. McGill University’s Charles Taylor I Saturdays at Seven Ep. 36
I choose to rest in my box while looking around the box, wondering about this and that but not worrying about this or that.
I would slightly edit "you choose to believe" to "you choose to say you believe." I'm surprised it's not more obvious to more people how this emphasis on creeds and propositions will ultimately undermine any/all institutions that rely on them. We might forget that the creeds of the past were reinforced with the power of the sword. A silent gravamen sounds a lot like "I had my fingers crossed" when we were kids.
Have you ever run a document review for an engineering procedure, product specification, or the like?
Despite the fact that such documents are supposedly the product of objective reality, getting people to agree on 100% of it is an _ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE._ Getting everyone to 90% is as good as you're going to get sometimes.
Then proceeding in something like "conciliar unity" after it has been signed off, is necessary for coordinated action.
There aren't many swords these days, but social enforcement mechanisms are just as much in play -- much as they were back then as well, as one might forget.
@@jimluebke3869requirements doc is a perfect analogy.
@jimluebke3869 I take your point and basically agree with it, getting any group on the same page is a cat herding project in pretty much any domain. My point though was really more of a prediction, which can't be proven or disproven, and only time will tell, but that this emphasis on creeds, particularly for institutions that claim to act as moral arbiters, will ultimately be the undoing of those institutions. With an increasing emphasis on individual conscience (Paul's authenticity) in our interconnected pluralistic world, institutions that can somehow de-emphasize tribal marker distinctions and focus more on our shared humanity will have better long term prospects. Again, in my opinion. This prediction may be wrong and contradicts the current environment of drawing hard boundaries and demanding overt allegiance (Paul's submission). We're seeing this everywhere and it's deeply destabilizing to every institution. I'm predicting these movements are sowing the seeds of their own destruction. I'm not a practicing Christian, but I think the core Christian message of love your enemy is ultimately True.
@@roderickhare "You might like" algorithms allow likeminded people to find each other online.
I think the future isn't necessarily a atomized as you fear, but it may look like Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash._
Loyalties in that story were only accidentally with geographical neighbors, they were tighter with creedal neighbors, because trust was higher.
The Internet allows smaller and smaller subcultures to cluster together. We'll see what the optimal size for these groupings will end up being.
@@roderickhare The core Christian message is "love your enemy" ??? I've been in creedal and uncreedal churches and none of them even had that in the list of things they want you to sign on to. So you have your own idea what the core Christian message is. That's a popular position.
Very helpful! Thanks Paul!
This concept of silent gravamin is very relatable as a confessional Lutheran (convert). We don't have a gravamin system officially but I've had a silent gravamin for quite a bit on closed communion. It was my largest difficulty coming in (and still is). I've always been very Ecunenical; in post Christian Canada I need all the Christian friends I can get. (And a wife too, if I limited marriage prospects to Lutherans I would die alone.) I can understand why a lot of Christians beleive differently and it feels unrealistic to demand extensive confessional subscription (I understand limits for belief in the real presence though). Us confessional Lutherans almost walk around like we have the magisrerial umph of the Papal Catholics/Orthodox when we don't we're supposedly sola scriptura. I submit to my church's doctrine/practice of closed communion (in both helping with the altar and visiting other churches) because my agreement and alignment with Lutheran Church Canada is so so close. That and my backup denomination (Anglican Church in North America) doesn't have any parishes within an hour transit commute. I might end up a very Lutheran ACNA Anglican in the future but for now I am commited to my Lutheran church and am very involved as a lay office-bearer.
Every Lutheran pastor I've heard quotes St. Paul's warnings about "eating and drinking to their own d**nation" when they are discouraging walk-ins from coming up to the rail.
Those who are still interested are advised in writing to talk to the pastors first. This seems to be a workable vetting process.
A lot of Lutheran denominations are very aware, even after 500 years, of their historic role as a counterweight to flawed Catholicism (both big C and little c).
The very nature of communion was so thoroughly tied to the branchings of the Reformation, it's inevitable that those with a different understanding of what was happening would want to shield others from what consequences that might arise from getting it wrong.
PVK, are you awake of how devastating your videos have been to the culture of authenticity? I think you've found the way to unite East and West. Wow.
Sunrises and sunsets go low-frequency light at the horizon, to high-frequency light closer to the zenith.
What you're presenting there is unnatural. Why is that?
I think the content of this video must be extremely important if one is trying to understand the divide between church going people and non-church going people, because as a non-church going person, I truly don't understand the concepts going on in this video.
I think a very low resolution interpretation of what PVK is saying in this video is that those who are non-church going people are just choosing not to submit their wills to church leadership. I'm confident PVK knows all too well how and why some people's deep mistrust of their individual churches, based on either personal experience or historical scandals, etc, results in people who do want to submit to God but are wary of submitting to a church. In fact a can name a few TLC people whom I see as having this experience.
That is exactly how I feel, perfectly willing to submit to God, but unable to see any relationship between that and submitting to church leadership. I also find the way Paul is talking about "belief" to be contradictory to my understanding of the typical definition of belief, i.e. that belief is not something we can choose. If someone asks if you believe something, they're asking you to examine the inner workings of your mind and report back your findings; they're not asking you to decide anything.
@@rossmcguinn2256what does a person do when discovery of God turns out to be a multi person, historical endeavor?
@@chrishoward8473 I don't think I understand your question, are you saying that the goal for religion is "discovery of God"?
@@rossmcguinn2256 yes. John 17:3
10:23 this submission rather than being convinced (pisteuo) was the catalyst for Tom Harpur and the break in Faith/trust. Hard to be authentic if you must lie about your true heart? Hard to find guidance if you must deny your doubts?
Loved the Trump impression!
I am pondering the thumbnail... Are you saying, "members like our brother in Canada still have a place in the CRC if they are willing to choose the authority of the church" ?
The gravamen fight is about what it means to be human...a difference in internal worlds. I heard a lot about "honest wrestling" here in the comments and from Synod...Wrestling doesn't always end with strength...Jacob was left with a limp after wrestling with God. The Christians I admire who have really wrestled have some sort of "limp" in their theological understandings but are the most contented and peaceful people I know. I noticed a lot of the speakers at Synod emphasizing "without reservation" were young...
The helps me understand how people are settled Catholics and Orthodox and haven't really looked into the aspects of their church I disagree with.
Very good video
If one reviews the covenant for office bearers, note how many times the idea 'submit' or 'submission' appears around the concept of 'We heartily believe and will promote and defend their doctrines... faithfully" . Yes. By making my mind and notions have greater authority than the church is the opposite of humility.
Sensible comments. I agree. And it's how I always understood things (and will continue to operate). I just wish this sensibility was more reflected in our covenant and church order. In my reading, it is not. Members are allowed to submit and simply agree; officebears are called to something much higher: Hearty believe. No reservations allowed. If I'm wrong, I'd love to have it pointed out to me.
"The Church"? Which church? Isn't there one?
Yes?
@@Phlebas9202 I would say that it the Orthodox Church.
@@kevinmac8629Nah the Baptists is the one true church, fight me orthobros.
From "Got questions":
'The Bible never uses the term visible church or invisible church. But the idea of the visible church versus the invisible church is a natural result of a biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation. The visible church is the expression of Christianity that people can see: the gathering and practices of the individuals in various church buildings on Sundays. The invisible church is the true church, which only God can see: born-again believers, past, present, and future. Because not everyone who attends church or performs religious deeds is saved, the visible church includes unbelievers. The invisible church is comprised of the redeemed and sealed by God."
The use of terms like "born again" and "sealed" gestures vaguely towards certain denominations here, but mostly this answer is what you might call _Mere Christianity._
@@jimluebke3869 The Bible doesn't use the term Trinity either, so following your logic we can't use it either?
I know you can say, and believe that there was an invisible church that was no where and yet everywhere, but all this is just assumptions on your part. If I ask you how you know this is certain, you can't appeal to anything expect your own preference. You certainly can't appeal to Austrian men in the 16th century, as that would just be being the question. So at the end of the day, you assume your own personal belief system, and you assume your own sole interpretation of text is correct. That's a very weak argument.
I asked a Christian friend, "Can you pray to God using David's prayer in the Bible"?
He answered, "Why not? David is recognized as a prophet by Jews and some Christians.
I said, OK, Please read his prayer.
Psalm 44 : 23 Wake up, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Get up! Do not reject us forever.
Then I asked My friend - Don't you respect your Bible's prayers?
My friend was really shocked and asked me to continue this lovely conversation later. But he never did.
I always say to him that the Bible is corrupted and Jews and Christians fabricated it on purpose. I hope one day, before it is too late, he opens his eyes, follows Jesus, and becomes a Muslim.
Listening to this guy one would believe that we are grafted into our denomination and not directly God's vine. If you disagree with what your church teaches, then you can continue if it does not bother you. Of course you can leave that church and find a church that is more acceptable.
This view of the denomination or church hierarchy comes between us and God stems from man believing he is somehow God.
From a Cal Bear to a Santa Cruz Slug, Hi!
I choose to love my wife, does that mean I do not love her?
Human beings are only able to make choices at the margins.
You can't force yourself 100%, but then, your life is impoverished if you don't have the willpower to push yourself to any degree.
There are multiple types of love. When you fall in love as a teenager, you don't choose it. When you commit yourself to self-sacrificing for the betterment of a woman and your family until you die, that's another type of love and it's something you choose. But those two types of love are simply homonyms, and it just causes confusion when people conflate them. I guess a similar thing is going on with the word "belief" in this video, but I'm not familiar with the alternate definition, so I just find it confusing.
I don't recommend asking her, whether she'd be entirely happy with the situation if you had to deliberately choose.
@@jimluebke3869 already done. Early relationship lust is not a foundation for a family, of course.
This is why the idea one would choose to believe in God, rings so true to me.
@@WongTag Lust isn't the only element of attraction.
The silent gravamen makes perfect sense to me. Given how many ideas individual Catholics have within the framework of the greater Church, it’s quite a relatable issue for us. And there’s always going to be a Pope someone will have a problem with 😂
It’s so human
Tom Harpur went so far as to write books. Emerson gave a speech. Believers are a technicolor blend of accepted tenets. Devotion to our path grows with practice, it does not come from rationality. St John of the Cross. Conformity and authenticity do not need to be separated? I give the Carmelites as example. Luther wanted replacement, Theresa of Avila saw a need to reform, from within. Doubt is simply opening to new understanding. A first step to an open mind? Wholeness. Healing and 'to be whole' are the same word in German.
vollständig
I'm not understanding how I submit to the church when, in my mind, I don't believe a particular thing.
Do you not believe, or do you question/not fully understand? I don't think those two things are the same at all!
Ayaan's suggestion that college students are vis-a-vis Hamas because they protest the mass killings of Palestinians really delegitimizes her as a serious thinker in my opinion. Like really, Ayaan? You think that the only reason they are protesting is because they hate jews? Any sensible person would know that is obviously not the case.
JBP makes a similar move that might be even more cringe and disappointing, given the high intellectual standard he supposedly holds himself to.
also p cringe to deny obvious antisemitism, and not something that will gain u a hearing in these circles..
@@mostlydead3261 I did not deny any antisemitism. Obviously, that exists but to say that their protests are fueled by antisemitism is completely disingenuous. These kids (and we all) see families being blown to pieces every day and would prefer that not happen anymore - especially in our name via government spending.
Okay. What if it has to do with how my children are (not) being catechized and I don’t want to wait 3 years because they’ll be three years older by then. So it’s not just authenticity but also how my children and soon to be young men are being raised in the faith.
People still call plumbers at random instead of finding the most experienced one. If you submit to the church you found on Craigslist then you deserve what you get, and if you don’t like the work done (possibly dangerous) there might be a way to make it right or maybe not.
@@verntweld51 and, when they want to make you a teacher or authority figure, you better know what you're signing on to!
On Hitchens .... a smart mature man. Atheism and theism are mental conditions not philosophies.
Gravamen? Gesundheit!
Brett…who is supposed to teach this? Let me help you…parents.
This sounds very CRC to me. Probably not useful to reuse the word Gravamen again though as it adds to confusion.
If people want brighter lines with a Dutch flavour the URC awaits.
"I don't know what church she goes to and I'm not that interested in finding out"
Oh, I think nowadays it's a fairly harmless passtime, like knowing which team your favorite college football player got drafted to. In fact I rejoice at how good-natured that kind of jostling has become.
In some ways it's safer to leave theological debate (with all its ineffables and spotty evidence) in the hands of disagreeable people. Such people enjoy debate for its own sake, and would actually be disappointed if the debate was unavailable. People who would feel stricken if someone whose opinion they valued failed to bring a good argument, or fell silent completely.
These debates should be kept away from people who insist on unity at any cost. The costs they have imposed, historically, have been quite high.
Maybe submitting to the church isn't useful anymore, I know this is in the context of the crc,this is more of a tangent but really you can just leave and join another denomination that aligns with what you conscience is telling you. It doesn't have to be political I see a lot of schism over time and I think its a product of American culture our individuality, if you think your community is wrong why should anyone submit to that? People renegotiate all the time I don't think that makes Christianity meaningless. i think it over time people make decisions based of what lies within their heart an inner coviction to do what is good. politics and the acquisition of influence and power set aside.
William the Silent. Loose lips sink ships.
"The principal marks or characteristics of the true Church are, her Unity, Sanctity, Catholicity, and Apostolicity, to which may be added the Infallibility of her teaching and the Perpetuity of her existence."
Gibbons, James; James Garton. Faith of Our Fathers (Annotated) . Garton Publishing. Kindle Edition.
"Unity of government is not less essential to the Church of Christ than unity of doctrine. Our Divine Saviour never speaks of His Churches, but of His Church. He does not say: “Upon this rock I will build my Churches,” but “upon this rock I will build My Church,”19 from which words we must conclude that it never was His intention to establish or to sanction various conflicting denominations, but one corporate body, with all the members united under one visible Head; for as the Church is a visible body, it must have a visible head."
Gibbons, James; James Garton. Faith of Our Fathers (Annotated) . Garton Publishing. Kindle Edition.
What about the Gravamen that tosses a wiffle ball over your pickett fence?.....'>.....
That's such a California backyard, in a California suburb, where the roof lines are so close.
Those fences just wouldn't survive anywhere that snows, and places that were settled before automobiles seem not to have houses squared-off next to one another despite the best efforts of Freemasons that supposedly ran the place.
Hey Paul, a “silent gravamen” is still lying. Also, it’s not submitting. It’s a way of saying “I know better”. Which is pride, not submission.
No, it's deferring to another. If the cop says you should drive more carefully, is doing so lying even if you think you can drive faster safely? That's not lying, that's submitting to authority
@@PaulVanderKlay In your scenario it's not lying. But, if I have wholeheartedly promised without reservation that I believe I cannot drive faster safely... Then it is lying to say I believe that when I really don't even if my actions (submitting to the speed limit) are the same.
@@Patrick_AnthonyI like the analogy.
Luke level jiu-jitsu. I have no idea what I think of this
Really? First?
Indeed
Submission to the church is a must as the church teaches and judges, but Christianity has not got the teaching in the NT, as confessions should be the same else there is not one faith. Christianity is taught to Christians instead of Christ of the NT, but accepting false teaching will not yield salvation, but it will yield Churchianity. A precise religion with a confession of faith to suit, but not an accurate one as I have found the church is limited in examination of its confession, but the truth is in the NT.
I have sought the one faith and found it, which leaves me alienated from every church, until that is people do reason their faith accurately to admit false beliefs, and that means confessions must be examined against the teaching I have discovered.
My Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' is easily accessible now, whilst my draft book isn't, and the conversation is well overdue.
Does Donald speak like that meyby i dont know.
PVK, what kind of mascot is that on your dad hat? A goblin, a snail, the blob??
Banana Slug. No natural predators. :)
Not first.
Will the not first be not last?
@@ProfesserLuigi neither hot nor cold. Not good... 😫
I had exsperince of all salesmen have all levels of mastering emotions to need it being sold, lots of good can't roof very good hell I never sold much by eductions tricks like license specified guarantee workers his babble like travel require license for safety funny like fools gold puppets sharecroppers king tax get blind real quick with blind and deaf law emotions lose friendship real soon then lawyers enter tax thrones just need earning tax for weird freedoms to play ownership monopoly games need real owner to make deals for day renter by slave work cheap hard work for old bodies have many younger tales has slavery easy for durable body dust with proper cement straws create stronger babble walls. My babble church also trys but God never enters time clubs anymore taverns more honest with drinks workman blues can laugh at life babble trys to empty buckets never can be your time to go then timelessness your lawyer never lose your eternal spark no flesh and blood solve why when where at this time of blind mortal fears will finally be awoke to Universal Adam does laugh dreams toys still left in time still happenings get slower slower slower effects till stop sign stop old time can't join timelessness till mystery found.