Interested in getting first access to my options strategy data library where I analyze the performance of popular options strategies with various trade management rules? Sign up for my newsletter and see the welcome email for more information: pfnews.substack.com/subscribe Get $200 to $250 in free stock when opening a new tastyworks brokerage account: geni.us/tastyworks TO CLARIFY: This can happen with any brokerage firm. It's not about your brokerage because you can get assigned after-hours with any brokerage. But I do think it is messed up how long it took to get the assignment notice. It was impossible for this trader to exercise their long 409 put because they did not have enough buying power to short 500 shares of TSLA at $409/share. The assignment settled well after the exercise cutoff time. I got my time zones mixed up in some of the images. 2PM my time is when the market closes. 3:16PM as seen on my chart is 4:16PM CT. Either way, the information stands. I hope you learned something to watch out for in this video. If you also lost money during this TSLA expiration date and feel Robinhood was negligent in this situation, please refer to the following video and send an email to the address included within: czcams.com/video/WgNCzsKGBHs/video.html -Chris
So best practice is to close spread before expiration. If you haven't you need to notify broker to exercise long in case spot falls between strikes after hours ? Could this solution cause complications too. Also how long after Friday expiration close would one be at risk for this to happen?
Oh, meaning both long and short puts are still in the after market? it's just no one is buying the put from him, during after market? and leaving him short put in the money and gotta buy those shares. Am i right? effed this is so complicated, im new with spread
This is actually an issue with the broker's risk mitigation department/guidelines. If the trader files a dispute with FINRA, they should be protected through arbitration. Any option contact that expires ITM (including the trader's 409 put protection), should be automatically exercised by the broker (just like the 410p was exercised). The broker knows OPRA's guidelines about option assignments up until 4:30pm est. The trader needs to lawyer up.
You are correct, on all points trader diffidently needs a lawyer. The customer agreements are written very tightly with a lot of "outs" for the broker. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible for the little guy to win in arbitration which is exactly why big companies force binding arbitration.
@@lProN00bl The option did not expire ITM. It moved ITM during the after-hours session and the option buyer exercised wihin the option cutoff time. Apparently Robinhood's policy is to notify the seller of the option as opposed to automatically exercising his long position. Brokers have different policies and you should know EXACTLY what they are.
@@BJJJUDO If you do credit trades please read my post above. The circumstances in this case are very unusual. You MUST know how your broker would handle a similar situation. However, all this could have been avoided if the trader had placed an exit order ahead of time. ALWAYS BUY BACK THE POSITION FOR PENNIES. This should be an open order placed immediately after the original credit trade was in place.
Put out a video today covering this when somebody said you already made one. Nice work, thanks for being quick on the draw getting this message out, and good vid.
Thanks Adam! I put it together quickly after correspondence with a trader since it is an important topic. It seems many others were in a similar situation with the TSLA move.
@@ngphil11 Technically this applies only to the short leg of the spread, because that's the one you risk assignment on. Obviously, you can't be assigned on the long leg because you own it. But what is more common to do is to simply close all legs of the spread as a vehicle. In a Credit/Debit spread what this does is trigger a "Buy To Close" order on the short leg and "Sell To Close" on the long leg. But, getting back to your question, if you elect to close only a single leg of the spread to avoid assignment in extended hours trading, then you should "Buy To Close" the short leg.
Philip Ng I’ve let short positions expire worthless successfully but there’s always that chance that they could end up in the money, especially with stocks that are capable of moving the way Tesla does. I had a Facebook credit spread a couple weeks ago, and it changed direction right at expiration so I bought it back. If I hadn’t I would have been in trouble. It ended up in the money at market close. Only you can make that decision. Do your homework. Pay close attention. And preserve capital. Good luck.
Kevin Stone VERY helpful answer! 1. Using the video example, but say the market is moving in MY favor, strongly, so I decide to let them both expire worthless. BUT, after the close, or very near to the close, a SIGNIFICANT news announcement hits, i.e. War with Chyna!, or whatever. And say similar or even more massive drop of TSLA, post close (eg. they lost their giga factory there due to extreme stress on international relations). I assume things could even be worse, correct? 2. What if my power and/or internet goes out an hour before close, i.e. power out due to storm, and ISP out due to whatever; ur just likely screwed right? I’ll try cell phone order submitted but dicey for sure. 3. Setting a Stop MARKET on the short strikes seems like the only and best answer, as I was intending to trade a 50 point wide SPX credit spread, or two of them, i.e. Iron Condor. My only remaining challenge, seems stupid I am sure, but I haven’t yet figured out how to put that stop in at 2X my Initial Credit, using ThinkorSwim, TOS, I just don’t know how to mechanically enter it, and so far, tech support not helpful, any screenshot example most appreciated. 4. Why would anyone trade TOS and pay those option commissions when Robinhood is free??
That happened to me too, over the long weekend, same scenario...after midnight I was informed. I had a (3) 162.50/161.50 TQQQ put spread and it expired well in the money. I should have closed the spread sooner but I’m new to options and had no clue of any loss over the max loss. I figured I’m already losing 100 I might as well wait and see if there’s a chance that the stock will rise again before expiration. On the day before expiration, Thursday night at midnight, I got a email from my broker telling me that (2) of my short legs from 2 of those spreads were exercised and my buying power read 50K loss. I recieved a margin call and some T Reg thing I’ve never heard of. I was given 200 shares of TQQQ. I told them to sell the shares and sell the 2 long positions for me right away. My losses were limited and no options should be exercised in the middle of the night. It was wrong and seemed fishy. The next day my buying power went back to normal, the shares were gone, and the long legs were gone. A scary scary situation that I don’t wish happen to anybody. I’m not doing anymore option spreads until next weeks spreads are closed. I lost a lot if money due to this last crash, and I’ve been watching all these videos for over 6 months on options and I have learned a lot. I don’t feel like I’m uneducated just need the hands in experience at this point and learn from my mistakes. But it was heart dropping. Thanks for this video. Nice to know I’m not the only one. I still don’t understand how my position was exercised so late in the night. I hate robinhood Smfh
Thank you! It happened to me (with TD Ameritrade, it's why I'm watching this video) as well and couldn't understand why. Luckily, I only lost $1700 and was able to recoup about 75% of my loss the following Monday by selling ALL that had been assigned afterhours :( ... I'm sure it was the same broker. This video NEEDS to be shared!
General rule: Never hold options to expiration, especially spreads or other complex option strategies. You run the risk of asymmetric execution during after hours trading. This can lead to devastating losses even if you think you've hedged. ALWAYS close out your positions unless you're perfectly fine with EVERY POSSIBLE OUTCOME that can happen during after hours trading.
Thanks. Very good cautionary video. But narration could be much less repetitive, and be concise and to the point. For newer traders who may never have experienced this, the excessive repetition of the almost same point, may serve to confuse rather than clarify. Well done, this video needs to be made.
You're a really great guy making this video and probably avoiding big losses to who knows how many traders. The world needs people like you. My most sincere appreciation
Great video. I think another solution is to place a GTC limit order with your profit target as soon as you open the position. I used 50% but 90% is also valid. This limit order would have auto closed his position for a few dollars that Friday and not exposed him to any risk with after hour market movements.
Why didn't the brokerage auto exercise his protection leg in a spread? They automatically liquidate the shares but didn't auto exercise when he got assigned?
The brokerage has a lot of rights but if its their policy to auto-liquidate they should have done it. This was just stupid of the brokerage because it will hurt them in the long run.
@@matthewscheifer1169 The clearing house, not the broker, executes assignments. Notice of the assignment wasn't sent to the broker until after the cutoff time for exercise. Stop blaming the broker. It was the trader's fault for (1) not reading the assignment risk disclosures, (2) not knowing the broker's rules for automatic exercise and the notification deadline for exercise, (3) not closing his short puts; (4) not realizing that each day and every day that he holds a short option, he is at risk of assignment, not just during the hours when options trade, but up to 90 minutes after the close; (5) failing to realize that the notion that the maximum loss on a credit spread is the spread minus credit does not take into account the possibility that only the short leg is exercised. There's more than one way this could happen. E.g., what if the stock settles between the strikes?
@@kenneth6847 The trader was stupid for (1) not bothering to read the assignment risk disclosures, (2) not closing his short puts; (3) not realizing that each day he holds a short option, he is at risk of assignment not just during the hours when options trade, but up to 90 minutes after the close; (4) failing to realize that the notion that the maximum loss on a credit spread is the spread minus credit assumes does not take into account the possibility that only the short leg is exercised. There's more than one way this could happen. E.g., what if the stock settles between the strikes?
I wish you expanded on this video and unexpected risk. I have 2 questions: 1) I thought in the money options are automatically exercised. If options can be exercised after the close into after hours trading, why would his other protective option not have been automatically exercised? 2) Is there no way to tie such an options trade together such that if one is exercised the other one is exercised? Because could this same thing not also happen if there was a mid day flash crash, where there was a large selloff, where one side of the vertical is exercised and then a recovery before you realize your option was exercised.
This almost happened to me on a Microsoft spread. Thankfully, my brokerage firm stepped in and saved me from a $100,000 loss. I was about to get another job before I found out.
So if his account has money to buy 500 shares at 409. The long 409 put should exercise as well. So we should always close all option ourselves before expiration date to be safe.
This problem is well known among experienced options traders but you never see it discussed in public on CZcams or anywhere else for that matter. Kudos to Projectoption for making the subject of this video. The basic problem is that while stocks trade after the retail markets close, options don't. So your options do not expire at 4:00PM Eastern Time (day of expiration), but you cannot trade them after 4:00. If the aftermarket changes the status of your options, there is not much you can do about it to avoid a loss. Normally, when it happens, it is a sustainable loss and that is how most of us come to understand this issue. However, in a worst case scenario, as in the occurrence described in this video, the result can be catastrophic. The CBOE could fix this if they wanted to, but they don't want to. It is not the retail traders making money from this, so it will never end.
Yeah, this practice is messed up, I'm still new to options and this is the first time I've heard of this problem, glad I have haven't tried messing around with Put spreads yet, and definitely will be paying to close out any OTM option before expiration now.....
Yuling Li They can profit from it. Trading arms of hedge firms and banks have their own algo’s to pick off arbitrage opportunities this creates. CBOE makes money off this. They also make money from all the people having to close positions early to avoid this. They won’t change it unless masses of people stop trading options in protest.
I use TOS and they will automatically exercise the protective leg of an options spread in a case like that. Call your brokerage firm and see if they have that default settings or give them permission to. But like Chris said the best option is to buy back short positions before the market closes.
Yeah tastyworks closes options that are close to being ITM at expiration as well. The brokerage in question should have exercised the trader's long 409 put for them. It's what any trader would want to happen if assigned on the short option in their spread.
I use TOS as well, they have a team that is very good when it comes closing options but they are not perfect. It requires human intelligence and attention, which has two points of failure. I had a short optioned exercised like this, when I called them they said you need to call them to make sure they exercise. Fortunately in my case it worked in my favor because the next Monday stock made me money, but from that point on I always close my positions shortly before 1pm on Friday.
TOS is NOT TastyWorks by the way, the founder of TastyWorks developed TOS years ago and sold it to Interactive Brokers (SORRY, TD Ameritrade, not IB, my apologies). TasyWorks is a very good broker IMHO, they alway send you an email if you have expiring positions that week 👍
So, to summarize: 1) Don't use margin or at least be responsible with how much margin you do use, and 2) Close all options positions before close Thanks for the info!
Thank you for sharing this. I have a trade expiring Friday and was not planning to buy it back until I saw this. Valuable lesson learned. I hope the affected trader recovers quickly and safely.
@Sanford Winston buy an ITM Call/Put (if seller ask is 0) to avoid the worst case scenario that is being discussed here . ( you may as well buy an ITM call/put in the next expiry so that you will be completely safe in case if you are unable to exit your short position in the current expiry)
Never, I repeat NEVER let options expire worthless. Close all legs at least 2-3 DTE or at 85-95% of max profit. It's not worth it holding onto expiration because we are living in unprecedented time. Learn to understand risk. After-hours and pre-market will either make you or break you during these volatile markets.
@@xxxs8309 around 0.25 leaves way too much juice in. I default to 0.05 ..hell, my opening trade some times got that 0.25 to milk on. But sure, always close before exp.
@@johto I do that sometimes but all it depends on the strike price , if it is above 60, there is no point in keeping the trade on unless you are very comfortable with the stock.Two weeks ago I sold 12 puts on OTRK with 60 price strike at 6dollar each now they are worth 0.5 and I'll close the trade at 0.25, with a realized gain of almost 7000 dollars,I'll sacrifice 300 dollars that's fine
If near to expiration and the option premium is usually zero cost, it is hard to close the position as no one is going to buy to close it. Beside, it may incurred additional commission if we close it during or expiration day. Then what is your advise on this?
But the commission is a lot cheaper than the alternative. Typically, you can close for a few cents a share. And sometimes I'll put a closing order in a few days early with a Good til Canceled. After that is fingers crossed. And if it's just not closing call the broker and ask them not to assign.
Wow this is terrible that this can happen, two things should be changed: 1. Options should not not be able to be exercised after hours on the expiration date. 2. As long as they made this trade as a combined credit spread and didn't make each trade individually, one option shouldn't get assigned without the other one also getting assigned.
This is good to know. Can't trade option BH or AH, I would have assumed too that the contract ends at 4pm est that day. How could they let it exercise even AH, and after one thought option already it is expired. Am just glad it was not me :(
Options can be exercised every trading day, not just expiration day, from 9:30AM ET to 5:30PM ET, Each and every day that you hold a short option, that option is at risk of early assignment. Don't let anyone tell you option are only exercised on expiration day. The risk of assignment was disclosed to you when you opened your account. You need to read those disclosures. As for your notion that "one option shouldn't get assigned without the other one also getting assigned.," what if only the short option is ITM? Hmm? Did you ever stop to consider that possibility? Once the short option is exercised, the spread ceases to exist. If you don't bother to monitor price action during after-hours trading, how will you know whether you should exercise or whether you are at risk of assignment?
@@cpfamily6431 Options trade from 9AM ET-4PM ET, but the underlying stock trades before, during and after those hours, each and every trading day, not just expiration day. Options can be exercised every trading day, not just expiration day, from 9:30AM ET to 5:30PM ET. Each and every day that you hold a short option, that option is at risk of assignment. Don't let anyone tell you that options can only be exercised on expiration day. You also have to consider the possibility that only the short option of the credit spread becomes ITM and gets exercised,. Once that happens, the spread ceases to exist and you are left with an OTM long option. If this was a put credit spread, you might wake up the next day to discover that you have been assigned 100 shares of stock and are now required to pay for them. Do you have the capital to buy 100 shares of the stock? The CZcams option gurus promote option credit spreads as a safe, easy strategy to generate weekly income. These people are only interested in generating ad revenue from their clickbait videos.
Such a great video to learn from! I feel HORRIBLE for the person who took this loss though... I've been trading options (almost entirely vertical put spreads w/.30 delta or less) for almost a year now and i have yet to let one of them expire. I ALWAYS close my positions prior to expiration because, to be honest, expiration mechanics scare the crap out of me! Despite all of my reading it still seems like so much can go against me on that day and it's just too much for me to risk. Thank you for this video and keep up the great work man!
@@synnic6051 never early no. Like I said, I always close once I've either got my profit target or I hit my loss %. Over a thousand positions and not one has been cleared by the options clearing authority
Thank you for the fore-warning: Correctly: the lesson learned is that it would be safer to " Buy to Close" the Bull Put Spread's OTM position very close to the expiration and not allow the option to reach expiration on its own. Could have happened to anybody.
@@shibity you can, just take out a personal loan for 15k when the market crashes and use margin to leverage at the money leaps options on blue chip stocks xD
Had similar situation occur when I first started selling options. Assignment is late notice and you are paying interest the whole time. Pen risk end of day close on TSLA is a few % so I’m confused why the broker didn’t call to close out the position. I switched to selling on the SPX primarily bc it’s cash settled which is advantageous in so many ways. Sorry to hear what happened to this fellow. Few people know the finer workings of the risk in selling options, thanks for getting great info out there.
Some brokers will warn you to close out your short option (or close it for you) if it gets close to being ITM, especially on expiration day. But your broker is not under any obligation to babysit the your position for you. Why didn't the trader exercise his 409 put himself?
People don't feel like talking about losses and bad plays, but those help to pave the route to success. Living is getting it wrong at times, reflecting (not b*tching) on it and improving your method. Cheers mate.
And just so if anyone wondering about early assignments due to ex-dividend dates, you dont have to worry about it when you have a credit put spreads. That's why I like them over debit spreads. Because, you are always obligated to buy if the short leg is assigned.
This kind of thing should not be happening at all. Options regulatory council needs to prevent this kind of thing. The ability to exercise an option should depend on the stock's Closing price at 4pm on expiration Friday especially since a trader cant trade options on stocks after 4pm. What happens to the stock price after 4pm should be irrelevant. It is stupid and very costly. Something needs to be done!
It's part of the trade, the buyer of the option can decide if they exercise the option. And they can do so basically whenever. It's pure convenience on the broker side that they default to exercising the option if you are in the money. Also funny enough what you described as the solution caused this whole accident. The 409 option wasn't exercised because the closing price wasn't in the money. As a rule of thumb one should always close option positions manually before the last day as the huge volatility works against you as the option seller. A maybe better solution would be to have no separate exercise cutoff time, however I can't comment on that as I don't have any competence to discuss that part.
@@mwfiaedev5835 The short strike wasn't ITM either at the close on Friday. However, both the long and short strikes went ITM on Friday (after hours)after it was announced that TSLA would not be included in the S&P 500. The long option should've been exercised automatically by the broker and the person would've never suffered the big loss.
I agree! Options expiring on Friday’s should have the same cut off notice for the underlying share price when normal market hours close. Seems very unfair for the options to be exercised in the after market hours and nothing can be done with the options
ricomajestic remember, the option is a contract - it gives the right of exercise to the purchaser, not to a broker, so a broker can’t exercise. They should all at least provide instant alerts to the client if an option goes in the money in after hours on the expiration date.
@@TochkaZreniya Actually that is not true. Most brokers will automatically exercise your option at expiration in a situation like this if it is in ITM unless you tell them not to. At least that's what TOS would do.
Wow, what a horrible scenario! THANK YOU for this video! I also noticed you have replied to literally dozens of commenters...even duplicate questions, very honorable! THANK YOU! Just subbed 👍
This is why I no longer keep options trades open after the day before expiration regardless of position, too much risk involved that close to expiration. I buy contracts with 2-3 weeks minimum left before expiration and always close my positions 1-2 days before expiration
jabberwocky1969 not necessarily, I’ve had brokers close open calls early on expiration day when the underlying shares are on a run up, screwing me out of profits. I just don’t like dealing with all the negative potential variables on expiration day, so I usually close my weekly Friday expirations on the Wednesday or Thursday before in most cases. Or at the very latest before noon on expiration day, wether it’s a long or short position
Boyer Industries You said the BROKER closed your long call position. Did they, legally, can do it? Why the broker would do it? Are they the counterpart?
Thats why I like Covered Calls. If for some reason I get assigned after close day of expiration it means I met maximum profit. For Spreads and Iron Condors Tasty Trade teaches taking profit @ 50% on 45 DTE positions. Around 21 days evaluate the trade and decide to take profit, roll it out, or hold on for little while longer. I will even take 25-30% profit if it happens in the first two weeks. Always assume that it best to take profits early and reset with a new trade. I really hate holding on to any trade to day of expiration (exception being Covered Calls - If there is no profit rolling out why close the Covered Call?).
Sometimes consistency pays off, Now it's my 2nd year in the online market and it's been great, though I have has my share of losses but looking at my numbers I can't complain.
I love the online market and how it's helped people make money all over the world 💰 but I have been quite unlucky trying to make money from it I trade in the FX and stock market but I can't seem to make any profit from it, I have spent most of my capital investing poorly. Watching these guys online have really gotten me nowhere. How have you been making money?.
Don't feel bad about your losses. The stock market is as complicated as it is compelling. Earning off the your trades takes years of constant practice. It takes skill and Expertise something you can't buy but develop faster by employing the help of a professional broker.
Traders need to understand something It would be foolish to go into something you've never done before and gain.. unlike someone who has been into it everyday and night for years.. just like a school you need to write exams and pass before you can be certified or in this case make profit..... A pro trader is always advised.
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The video covers well how an after-hour ITM put credit spread can go wrong. It also does remind people the best way to avoid catastrophe is to close the short. However, it left out a lot of the deep discussion in case the short was not closed and what choices one could have, and what their potential pros and cons are. The host said the dude could have exercised his long put position to have saved the damage. In reality, at that moment, the dude would not know his short put would for sure be assigned. I doubt his broker would even let him exercise the long put since his fund was way below what he needed to borrow. Anyway... many people made videos at the time to catch that hype and gain viewership, but nobody actually talked about the realistic nuances, which is kinda disappointing.
The CZcams option gurus teach that your maximum risk on a credit spread is the value of the spread minus the credit. They never talk about the risk of assignment from large moves during after-hours trading. They never discuss the capital requirements to exercise a call or a put; instead, they naively assume that the long option in the credit spread will "automatically" be exercised, offsetting the presumed assignment on the short option. They promote credit spreads as an easy, low-risk way to generate weekly income. They never talk about the low expected value of this option strategy. One bad trade can wipe out weeks of profits. In this trader's case, one bad TSLA credit spread trade wiped out his $30,000 account. He was one of the lucky ones. Other TSLA credit spread traders report in this thread losses of $300,000 or more. Why did this trader, knowing he did not have the capital to buy 500 shares of TSLA @$410/share if assigned on his puts, fail to exit those puts prior to the close of the regular session? Why wasn't he monitoring after-hours trading? How could he not know the risk of assignment from larger moves in after-hours trading? This type of risk is identified in the mandatory risk disclosures.
I never let my options expire even if it is OTM I close it out. It’s not worth the risk to keep the contracts open. After watching this I’m even more certain not to let my options expire.
I tried closing contracts that were "worthless", but my brokerage platform said "N/A" and I felt forced to hold my contracts open. I guess I could have called the brokerage firm.
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Great info. Isn't it something that brokerage firm should take care to save their customers (credit/debit spreads are the most conservative strategies within options). Could you please name a brokerage firms, who takes care of these scenarios automatically? Do we have a chance of this scenario occurring before expiration?
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@@vking4535 With my brokerage at least, the strike price does not need to reach the strike of your long leg. If the short leg gets assigned, the brokerage automatically exercises your long leg, regardless if the stock price reached it or not.
The market isn’t technically closed, it’s just past the “regular session”. You can still buy and trade stocks and technically trade options if your brokerage allows that.
This exact same scenario happened to me. Still can't believe these wrongheaded rules even exist. OCC listening? Some facts: - S&P released critical index information while the options markets were still open. That is potentially illegal and is never supposed to happen. - A seemingly very safe $1 wide spread disappears only in after-hours and assignment occurred. This rule appears to be completely asinine. Again..OCC ? I probably have not been trading options quite as long as Chris but I am far from new. I would wager that very traders even know this potentiality is even possible. It shouldn't be!
If you don’t understand this can happen, you should not be trading options! It’s very basic stuff. Nobody reads all the details you are ‘required’ to read before requesting options level in your account, then they have this shit happen and freak out. A short leg is always RISK. What’s the very first rule of trading (anything)? Always control your risk!
@@gavinliu2121 But beginners are TOLD that, repeatedly. But they get all goo-goo eyed over hearing about 500% profits in one day. And that’s entirely possible, hell I’ve had trades make over 10x in half a day, sometimes even in 15 minutes. But risk is always lurking. Nobody is preying on anyone else, it’s just a very vicious game. If you don’t understand the rules, and the possibilities, don’t play!
@@barrycw1 I’ll never be able to say ‘the exact same scenario happened to me’. I’ve had my share of bad trades, but not over simple details like letting expiring short options go into afterhours. There is so much free education available, nobody has an excuse for doing something that crazy. As soon as you say things like “ A seemingly very safe $1 wide spread disappears... ” and then try to blame the clearing house or the broker, it shows you haven’t educated yourself about options and trading rules. The trade didn’t vanish, it played out according to the rules you didn’t understand. Not trying to make you feel worse about it, but it gets old hearing people try to blame the ‘system’ that they didn’t understand.
Great video! Scott Sheridan at Tastyworks has been saying this for years to Tastyworks customers! NEVER EVER leave an OTM spread on to expire worthless! This is why Tastyworks has free/zero closing commissions.
You should also talk about scenario where the stock gives out dividend. The short leg could get exercised early (like before ex-dividend date) even though the short leg still has extrinsic value. In this case the extrinsic value is less than the dividend, so it's make sense to exercise the option.
Options are a gamble and nothing more. Everyone can think they have the market and charts figured out, but the big boys with the big $$$ got you beat. Invest in good companies and you’ll get good results
Thanks for the video. Usually I never let a position expire, one time I came close. I was in a losing FB Iron Condor(IC) and I was riding it on Friday expiration. The short call was ITM and I was hoping that the stock would lower to allow the challenge call side to become OTM. In the middle of the day the stock never went OTM and I closed the position for a small loss. Luckily that position stayed ITM especially after watching this vid. Now I will never let anything go to expiration - you are no longer in control of the position after the close/after expiration.
I think you can let the long option expire if it's worthless so you can save on the commission and if it by chance moves in the money you can exercise it before 4:30pm as in this case. Is this correct?
@@rupulstilskin I have no idea. I don't know how to exercise a position after hours. I've been assigned and have exercised a protective option, but never after hours
Because selling a put a little bit over the put that you bought decreases the price essentially. He wasn’t buying a 409 put outright, he was reducing the cost with the short 410 put
Thank you for sharing this. I'll be closing my positions from here on out instead of letting them expire. Max profit isn't worth the potential of losing large sums of money.
You got it! You just have to make sure to close the short options. You can't get assigned on options you own. I trade with tastyworks and they automatically close near-the-money options for you before expiration to avoid this type of thing. Some commenters have mentioned their brokerages do the same.
**** It's well worth noting that during most of the first 3 hours of the TSLA regular trading session on the 9/4/20 option expiration day, the trader's credit-spread options were all ITM; during that time, TSLA traded down to 372, placing all the trader's options 37 to 38 points DEEP IN THE MONEY! Despite the writing on the wall, the trader did not exit his credit spreads. I suppose he was determined to keep every penny of the chump change he got for selling those spreads.
It depends on if you can take assignment. If you short a put and you have no problem being assigned to take stock, then you don't need to close. If you have a covered call, getting assigned on the short call just means selling your shares. You can't lose huge sums of money in either scenario (assuming we are talking about a cash-secured put). In this spread example, the assignment led to a massively leveraged position and that's why it was a huge problem.
I knew they are exercised/assigned after hours, BUT I did not know the price they use is the aftermarket/extended hours price not the price at the close of trading. Tricky!
@{Forbidden.Knowledge} That's not the point - the fact they used the aftermarket price and not the closing price at 4:00 ET to determine ITM/OTM and they did not exercise his long position which would normally hedge the short position. Not many traders realize this.
@@chrisguli2865 They still use the closing price to decide what to automatically exercise. If you own calls or puts you have the right to exercise them at the strike price. It doesn't matter the reason why which might not necessarily be related to the underlying price.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Chris, I was not aware this could happen. I feel for the guy, I really do. I hope that he recovers However, as appealing as TSLA options are I wouldn't go near them even if Elon was to personally donate them!! I'll stick to picking up small crumbs of profit from BAC, T, SO etc... While I take nothing for granted they at least allow me to sleep at night.
Great video man. I have a small group comprised of some newer traders and we talked about this extensively. You literally may have saved someone's life with this video.
Always close out credit spreads on equity and ETF options. SPX weekly options are cash settled at close on expiration day at 3 PM CT so you don't have to worry about after hours price moves.
Yeah...thanks for the reminder on this.However, while you don't have to worry about assignment risk, the SPX is SO VOLATILE that it can really hurt you. Especially if you are doing 0 DTE (same day expiration trades). Still it is good to know that it is GOOD PRACTICE to just sell short positions before expiration as a RULE of THUMB
In this case they should have, but without knowing the purpose of the puts the broker should not exercise. I sell puts to buy stocks at times and sometimes sell just for the easy money, so it's not really always black and white.
Philip Rollins I would think exercising an ITM put for you client would be a no brainer. very sad scenario, especially if they opened the trade as a spread.
That was a hard lesson to learn there, I feel for the guy or girl but he or she should of just took the 500 and called it a wrap. This is a classic case of doing to much.
thank you for the heads up. I do nothing but put credit spreads and I've always let everything expire. Now I know this can happen and will close it before it expires to avoid this problem.
@@MrJStew11 as CB just said, it only applies to the short option (what you have sold). When buying puts, you own them and cannot be assigned, rather YOU have the right to exercise them (which will result in assignment to another trader I think).
That’s crazy. I didn’t know that. Always thought options expire right at market close. I guess if he was aware of the after hours move he could have exercised his 409 put, after he was assigned...?
Great video! Very informative and what a valuable lesson! Thank you for providing this info since I would rather learn from you on youtube than to be that guy losing $30,000 after hours!
Very good explanation. Very understandable. I didn't know about little details like options being vulnerable to 'after' market moves on expiration day until it happened to come up when I was asking my brokerage other questions.
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This happened to me with MU once. I woke up with 100 shares confused as to how I got assigned but MU just bounces back so I sold it the next day. I was wondering about this for the longest time. I understand now. Sucks he couldn't hold his shares to sell it pre market the next day. What a way to blow up a small account :(
Wow thats super annoying. Thanks for sharing. Hence the importance of closing otm spreads for pennies, and having a broker with cheap commissions. But honestly, 8 points otm is not far enough or is not safe enough for Tesla stock I would have definitely closed it intraday. What kind of stock moved so much after hours on a Friday that is ridiculous in summary or in conclusion don't trade Tesla.
This was a news driven move after hours when the S&P 500 committee decision came out. Doo doo occurs but it is sooooo important to aquire a deep understanding of any instrument you trade, especially derivatives.
Hello Chris, thanks for sharing this. I don't get the meaning of the closing Bell, I though the market would close at 4pm and was not able to take any action after 4 pm.
You can exercise any option you own after the market closes. There's about an hour and a half to do so, but less depending on your brokerage firm. Apparently Robinhood does not allow after-hours exercising. But you can still be assigned because getting assigned doesn't have to do with your brokerage firm's rules. ANY trader at ANY brokerage firm who is short an option can be assigned.
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If Tesla goes back above $410 next week, that dudes going to literally explode. If only he could have met his margin call before it was liquidated he probably would be made whole in just a few days.
Better to close out with surety rather than play mental what if scenarios with yourself (even with a large account)...opportunities always come and go especially with TSLA. FOMO is a malady all traders have to guard against.
This reminds me of my friend who was short some $10 calls on KODK after it had ran up on that bs news, around the $4-5 dollar range. When he woke up that morning that trump talked about the KODK deal to produce vaccines, the price ran all the way to $60 and he lost about 33k. Mind you, this guy had like a 60k account, so this was a serious blow. I haven't seen him around since. It made me really sad. Of course, in hindsight, he should have just kept the position open, or bought puts at the top to help insulate him from some of the losses, but he closed them out near $40 I believe and left his desk. Always keep in mind that unlimited risk is truly so, black swans can occur and you don't want to be unprotected from these novelties.
sometimes, this made me feel (the safest) only buying calls or puts, at least if shit happens, you only lost the premium rather than a whole shit of the account.
@@ahmadhusaini8420 yes sell put vertical and sell credit verticals .. that gives you constant premium while providing a protection. I do it at 10-15% probability of losing money. I dont make much per transaction, but almost sure that I will make $200-$500 per day with my current investment. With little bit of risk, I can go update to $1000 but then it can create situation like above ..so I avoid it
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TO CLARIFY: This can happen with any brokerage firm. It's not about your brokerage because you can get assigned after-hours with any brokerage. But I do think it is messed up how long it took to get the assignment notice. It was impossible for this trader to exercise their long 409 put because they did not have enough buying power to short 500 shares of TSLA at $409/share. The assignment settled well after the exercise cutoff time. I got my time zones mixed up in some of the images. 2PM my time is when the market closes. 3:16PM as seen on my chart is 4:16PM CT. Either way, the information stands. I hope you learned something to watch out for in this video.
If you also lost money during this TSLA expiration date and feel Robinhood was negligent in this situation, please refer to the following video and send an email to the address included within: czcams.com/video/WgNCzsKGBHs/video.html
-Chris
It's all good CB👍. Thanks for taking the time to post the vid. Looking forward to the SME vids!
So best practice is to close spread before expiration.
If you haven't you need to notify broker to exercise long in case spot falls between strikes after hours ? Could this solution cause complications too.
Also how long after Friday expiration close would one be at risk for this to happen?
@@3756hans Chris said an hour and a half (4:30 Central time) you are at risk according to OIC.
Oh, meaning both long and short puts are still in the after market? it's just no one is buying the put from him, during after market? and leaving him short put in the money and gotta buy those shares. Am i right? effed this is so complicated, im new with spread
Same exact thing happened to me except I was long the 416 short the 417. My broker gave me 200 shares
This is actually an issue with the broker's risk mitigation department/guidelines. If the trader files a dispute with FINRA, they should be protected through arbitration. Any option contact that expires ITM (including the trader's 409 put protection), should be automatically exercised by the broker (just like the 410p was exercised). The broker knows OPRA's guidelines about option assignments up until 4:30pm est. The trader needs to lawyer up.
Yeah that never made sense to me. Fidelity tells you every time if the option expires in the money, it will be exercised automatically,
You are correct, on all points trader diffidently needs a lawyer. The customer agreements are written very tightly with a lot of "outs" for the broker. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible for the little guy to win in arbitration which is exactly why big companies force binding arbitration.
@@lProN00bl The option did not expire ITM. It moved ITM during the after-hours session and the option buyer exercised wihin the option cutoff time. Apparently Robinhood's policy is to notify the seller of the option as opposed to automatically exercising his long position. Brokers have different policies and you should know EXACTLY what they are.
@@BJJJUDO If you do credit trades please read my post above. The circumstances in this case are very unusual. You MUST know how your broker would handle a similar situation. However, all this could have been avoided if the trader had placed an exit order ahead of time. ALWAYS BUY BACK THE POSITION FOR PENNIES. This should be an open order placed immediately after the original credit trade was in place.
@@hattrick2219 Exactly, It's worth the few bucks not to worry about the extra 90 minutes.
Put out a video today covering this when somebody said you already made one. Nice work, thanks for being quick on the draw getting this message out, and good vid.
Love your vids man
True man, Just posted a video about my biggest losses on my channel if youre interested, id love to hear your feedback
Watched your video right before this one and realized I should watch this several times to ingrain it in my head. Sad story.
Thanks Adam! I put it together quickly after correspondence with a trader since it is an important topic. It seems many others were in a similar situation with the TSLA move.
Could this also happen with debit spreads?
Moral of the story - CLOSE OUT POSITIONS BEFORE EXPIRATION!
I’m new to options; does this apply to both long and short positions?
@@ngphil11 Technically this applies only to the short leg of the spread, because that's the one you risk assignment on. Obviously, you can't be assigned on the long leg because you own it. But what is more common to do is to simply close all legs of the spread as a vehicle. In a Credit/Debit spread what this does is trigger a "Buy To Close" order on the short leg and "Sell To Close" on the long leg. But, getting back to your question, if you elect to close only a single leg of the spread to avoid assignment in extended hours trading, then you should "Buy To Close" the short leg.
Philip Ng I’ve let short positions expire worthless successfully but there’s always that chance that they could end up in the money, especially with stocks that are capable of moving the way Tesla does. I had a Facebook credit spread a couple weeks ago, and it changed direction right at expiration so I bought it back. If I hadn’t I would have been in trouble. It ended up in the money at market close. Only you can make that decision. Do your homework. Pay close attention. And preserve capital. Good luck.
What about if the both legs of the spread are in the money? Do you still close them for a loss?
Kevin Stone VERY helpful answer! 1. Using the video example, but say the market is moving in MY favor, strongly, so I decide to let them both expire worthless. BUT, after the close, or very near to the close, a SIGNIFICANT news announcement hits, i.e. War with Chyna!, or whatever. And say similar or even more massive drop of TSLA, post close (eg. they lost their giga factory there due to extreme stress on international relations). I assume things could even be worse, correct? 2. What if my power and/or internet goes out an hour before close, i.e. power out due to storm, and ISP out due to whatever; ur just likely screwed right? I’ll try cell phone order submitted but dicey for sure. 3. Setting a Stop MARKET on the short strikes seems like the only and best answer, as I was intending to trade a 50 point wide SPX credit spread, or two of them, i.e. Iron Condor. My only remaining challenge, seems stupid I am sure, but I haven’t yet figured out how to put that stop in at 2X my Initial Credit, using ThinkorSwim, TOS, I just don’t know how to mechanically enter it, and so far, tech support not helpful, any screenshot example most appreciated. 4. Why would anyone trade TOS and pay those option commissions when Robinhood is free??
That happened to me too, over the long weekend, same scenario...after midnight I was informed. I had a (3) 162.50/161.50 TQQQ put spread and it expired well in the money. I should have closed the spread sooner but I’m new to options and had no clue of any loss over the max loss. I figured I’m already losing 100 I might as well wait and see if there’s a chance that the stock will rise again before expiration. On the day before expiration, Thursday night at midnight, I got a email from my broker telling me that (2) of my short legs from 2 of those spreads were exercised and my buying power read 50K loss. I recieved a margin call and some T Reg thing I’ve never heard of. I was given 200 shares of TQQQ. I told them to sell the shares and sell the 2 long positions for me right away. My losses were limited and no options should be exercised in the middle of the night. It was wrong and seemed fishy. The next day my buying power went back to normal, the shares were gone, and the long legs were gone. A scary scary situation that I don’t wish happen to anybody. I’m not doing anymore option spreads until next weeks spreads are closed. I lost a lot if money due to this last crash, and I’ve been watching all these videos for over 6 months on options and I have learned a lot. I don’t feel like I’m uneducated just need the hands in experience at this point and learn from my mistakes. But it was heart dropping. Thanks for this video. Nice to know I’m not the only one. I still don’t understand how my position was exercised so late in the night. I hate robinhood Smfh
It wasn’t exercised it the middle of the night, that’s just when they decided to tell you. Can’t believe anyone uses robinhood. Shitty brokerage.
Thank you! It happened to me (with TD Ameritrade, it's why I'm watching this video) as well and couldn't understand why. Luckily, I only lost $1700 and was able to recoup about 75% of my loss the following Monday by selling ALL that had been assigned afterhours :( ... I'm sure it was the same broker. This video NEEDS to be shared!
Which broker was it?
Which broker?
Schwab still does this shit.
General rule: Never hold options to expiration, especially spreads or other complex option strategies. You run the risk of asymmetric execution during after hours trading. This can lead to devastating losses even if you think you've hedged. ALWAYS close out your positions unless you're perfectly fine with EVERY POSSIBLE OUTCOME that can happen during after hours trading.
I dunno how individuals can feel comfortable with this. What if you go into a coma from a car wreck days before?
@@lakecityransom you can set an activation rule to trigger order/s to close your option positions on a specified date.
Thanks. Very good cautionary video. But narration could be much less repetitive, and be concise and to the point. For newer traders who may never have experienced this, the excessive repetition of the almost same point, may serve to confuse rather than clarify. Well done, this video needs to be made.
You're a really great guy making this video and probably avoiding big losses to who knows how many traders. The world needs people like you. My most sincere appreciation
Moral of the story, Sell before expiration day! This is a nightmare.
Close position on expiration day at the open. That's the moral.
Or even don’t trade what you don’t understand
This is the only comment that matters.
So he had to close his positions before expiration, understood.
Basically lol
but also make sure that the market is open to be able to close the position.
Yes. Good moral . noted.
Its never good to wait until day of expiration anyway, shitty brokerage firm
just the short legs
God dam, that dude went broke from a supposedly conservative trade.That really sucks man.
he was cheap, wanted to save some coins, he could buy those puts back before closing
@@MESSY-AF Yea, probably wanted to save on commissions too.
I will say that the person who exercised those puts was smart. They took full advantage of the policies surrounding options.
Great video. I think another solution is to place a GTC limit order with your profit target as soon as you open the position. I used 50% but 90% is also valid. This limit order would have auto closed his position for a few dollars that Friday and not exposed him to any risk with after hour market movements.
I agree. I'm doing this starting today to protect myself a little bit better.
GTC limit orders execute during market hours only. Would not have saved him.
@@free322001 correct
Why didn't the brokerage auto exercise his protection leg in a spread? They automatically liquidate the shares but didn't auto exercise when he got assigned?
@@herrickinman9303 but once the trader got assigned the brokerage should have detected that they held shares and an option that was worth exercising.
The brokerage has a lot of rights but if its their policy to auto-liquidate they should have done it. This was just stupid of the brokerage because it will hurt them in the long run.
@@matthewscheifer1169 The clearing house, not the broker, executes assignments. Notice of the assignment wasn't sent to the broker until after the cutoff time for exercise. Stop blaming the broker. It was the trader's fault for
(1) not reading the assignment risk disclosures,
(2) not knowing the broker's rules for automatic exercise and the notification deadline for exercise,
(3) not closing his short puts;
(4) not realizing that each day and every day that he holds a short option, he is at risk of assignment, not just during the hours when options trade, but up to 90 minutes after the close;
(5) failing to realize that the notion that the maximum loss on a credit spread is the spread minus credit does not take into account the possibility that only the short leg is exercised. There's more than one way this could happen. E.g., what if the stock settles between the strikes?
@@kenneth6847 The trader was stupid for
(1) not bothering to read the assignment risk disclosures,
(2) not closing his short puts;
(3) not realizing that each day he holds a short option, he is at risk of assignment not just during the hours when options trade, but up to 90 minutes after the close;
(4) failing to realize that the notion that the maximum loss on a credit spread is the spread minus credit assumes does not take into account the possibility that only the short leg is exercised. There's more than one way this could happen. E.g., what if the stock settles between the strikes?
Because you can't always win, and the brokerage can always control risks on their end.
I wish you expanded on this video and unexpected risk. I have 2 questions: 1) I thought in the money options are automatically exercised. If options can be exercised after the close into after hours trading, why would his other protective option not have been automatically exercised? 2) Is there no way to tie such an options trade together such that if one is exercised the other one is exercised? Because could this same thing not also happen if there was a mid day flash crash, where there was a large selloff, where one side of the vertical is exercised and then a recovery before you realize your option was exercised.
This almost happened to me on a Microsoft spread. Thankfully, my brokerage firm stepped in and saved me from a $100,000 loss. I was about to get another job before I found out.
Care to share what did your broker done?
How did they save you?
@@MrDavid949 they hedged my trade for me.
So if his account has money to buy 500 shares at 409. The long 409 put should exercise as well. So we should always close all option ourselves before expiration date to be safe.
It seems irresponsible and negligent that his broker didn't exercise the other leg automatically.
Yap totally the brokers fault
Alejandro Rosario I'm kinda new to options trading..when did your contract expire? On that Friday?
@@beyondfinance7755 The terminologies sound a bit confusing to me. In your case, did TD Ameritrade automatically do the right thing for you?
the broker is not supposed to make decisions for you.
@@beyondfinance7755 just dont fuck with credit spreads like a gay bear and you wont ever have this problem
This problem is well known among experienced options traders but you never see it discussed in public on CZcams or anywhere else for that matter. Kudos to Projectoption for making the subject of this video. The basic problem is that while stocks trade after the retail markets close, options don't. So your options do not expire at 4:00PM Eastern Time (day of expiration), but you cannot trade them after 4:00. If the aftermarket changes the status of your options, there is not much you can do about it to avoid a loss. Normally, when it happens, it is a sustainable loss and that is how most of us come to understand this issue. However, in a worst case scenario, as in the occurrence described in this video, the result can be catastrophic. The CBOE could fix this if they wanted to, but they don't want to. It is not the retail traders making money from this, so it will never end.
Thank you for the comment this is really insightful. Basically, don't hold options past expiration PERIOD would seem to be the takeaway
Yeah, this practice is messed up, I'm still new to options and this is the first time I've heard of this problem, glad I have haven't tried messing around with Put spreads yet, and definitely will be paying to close out any OTM option before expiration now.....
Is this intended by CBOE? Or they just didn’t bother to fix it
@Humble Grumble I know the rule but don't know about its INTENTION? could you please elaborate?
Yuling Li They can profit from it. Trading arms of hedge firms and banks have their own algo’s to pick off arbitrage opportunities this creates. CBOE makes money off this. They also make money from all the people having to close positions early to avoid this. They won’t change it unless masses of people stop trading options in protest.
I use TOS and they will automatically exercise the protective leg of an options spread in a case like that. Call your brokerage firm and see if they have that default settings or give them permission to. But like Chris said the best option is to buy back short positions before the market closes.
Yeah tastyworks closes options that are close to being ITM at expiration as well. The brokerage in question should have exercised the trader's long 409 put for them. It's what any trader would want to happen if assigned on the short option in their spread.
I use TOS as well, they have a team that is very good when it comes closing options but they are not perfect. It requires human intelligence and attention, which has two points of failure. I had a short optioned exercised like this, when I called them they said you need to call them to make sure they exercise. Fortunately in my case it worked in my favor because the next Monday stock made me money, but from that point on I always close my positions shortly before 1pm on Friday.
They didn't in my case. I use TOS as well.
TOS is NOT TastyWorks by the way, the founder of TastyWorks developed TOS years ago and sold it to Interactive Brokers (SORRY, TD Ameritrade, not IB, my apologies).
TasyWorks is a very good broker IMHO, they alway send you an email if you have expiring positions that week 👍
@@pogster56 who said tastyworks and TOS were the same?
So, to summarize:
1) Don't use margin or at least be responsible with how much margin you do use, and
2) Close all options positions before close
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for the summary
Thank you for sharing this. I have a trade expiring Friday and was not planning to buy it back until I saw this. Valuable lesson learned. I hope the affected trader recovers quickly and safely.
@Sanford Winston buy an ITM Call/Put (if seller ask is 0) to avoid the worst case scenario that is being discussed here . ( you may as well buy an ITM call/put in the next expiry so that you will be completely safe in case if you are unable to exit your short position in the current expiry)
Never, I repeat NEVER let options expire worthless. Close all legs at least 2-3 DTE or at 85-95% of max profit. It's not worth it holding onto expiration because we are living in unprecedented time. Learn to understand risk. After-hours and pre-market will either make you or break you during these volatile markets.
I agree I always close when a put is around 0.25, not worth keeping it on Friday till the end
@@xxxs8309 around 0.25 leaves way too much juice in. I default to 0.05 ..hell, my opening trade some times got that 0.25 to milk on. But sure, always close before exp.
@@johto I do that sometimes but all it depends on the strike price , if it is above 60, there is no point in keeping the trade on unless you are very comfortable with the stock.Two weeks ago I sold 12 puts on OTRK with 60 price strike at 6dollar each now they are worth 0.5 and I'll close the trade at 0.25, with a realized gain of almost 7000 dollars,I'll sacrifice 300 dollars that's fine
@@xxxs8309 Sure, its about the % 👍
Yes!
If near to expiration and the option premium is usually zero cost, it is hard to close the position as no one is going to buy to close it. Beside, it may incurred additional commission if we close it during or expiration day. Then what is your advise on this?
So true. Amen
But the commission is a lot cheaper than the alternative. Typically, you can close for a few cents a share. And sometimes I'll put a closing order in a few days early with a Good til Canceled. After that is fingers crossed. And if it's just not closing call the broker and ask them not to assign.
That happened to me. Luckily all were out of the money.
This person needed to BUY back his put, not sell it.
Wow this is terrible that this can happen, two things should be changed:
1. Options should not not be able to be exercised after hours on the expiration date.
2. As long as they made this trade as a combined credit spread and didn't make each trade individually, one option shouldn't get assigned without the other one also getting assigned.
Exactly!
This is good to know. Can't trade option BH or AH, I would have assumed too that the contract ends at 4pm est that day. How could they let it exercise even AH, and after one thought option already it is expired. Am just glad it was not me :(
Agreed something not right about this
Options can be exercised every trading day, not just expiration day, from 9:30AM ET to 5:30PM ET, Each and every day that you hold a short option, that option is at risk of early assignment. Don't let anyone tell you option are only exercised on expiration day. The risk of assignment was disclosed to you when you opened your account. You need to read those disclosures.
As for your notion that "one option shouldn't get assigned without the other one also getting assigned.," what if only the short option is ITM? Hmm? Did you ever stop to consider that possibility? Once the short option is exercised, the spread ceases to exist.
If you don't bother to monitor price action during after-hours trading, how will you know whether you should exercise or whether you are at risk of assignment?
@@cpfamily6431 Options trade from 9AM ET-4PM ET, but the underlying stock trades before, during and after those hours, each and every trading day, not just expiration day.
Options can be exercised every trading day, not just expiration day, from 9:30AM ET to 5:30PM ET. Each and every day that you hold a short option, that option is at risk of assignment. Don't let anyone tell you that options can only be exercised on expiration day.
You also have to consider the possibility that only the short option of the credit spread becomes ITM and gets exercised,. Once that happens, the spread ceases to exist and you are left with an OTM long option. If this was a put credit spread, you might wake up the next day to discover that you have been assigned 100 shares of stock and are now required to pay for them.
Do you have the capital to buy 100 shares of the stock?
The CZcams option gurus promote option credit spreads as a safe, easy strategy to generate weekly income. These people are only interested in generating ad revenue from their clickbait videos.
Such a great video to learn from! I feel HORRIBLE for the person who took this loss though... I've been trading options (almost entirely vertical put spreads w/.30 delta or less) for almost a year now and i have yet to let one of them expire. I ALWAYS close my positions prior to expiration because, to be honest, expiration mechanics scare the crap out of me! Despite all of my reading it still seems like so much can go against me on that day and it's just too much for me to risk. Thank you for this video and keep up the great work man!
Have you ever had an early assigned on your spreads? What day was it? Was the long option automatically exercised to cover the short option?
@@synnic6051 never early no. Like I said, I always close once I've either got my profit target or I hit my loss %. Over a thousand positions and not one has been cleared by the options clearing authority
@@jesser8502 Just curious, for over a thousand positions in a year, how do you track them to make sure they are closed before expiration?
As an options writer I generally closeout the position before op ex date. It's too risky to let it expire. I've been called in the past.
Thank you for the fore-warning: Correctly: the lesson learned is that it would be safer to " Buy to Close" the Bull Put Spread's OTM position very close to the expiration and not allow the option to reach expiration on its own. Could have happened to anybody.
The ironic thing is, if he was allowed to keep his Tesla shares to this day he would have doubled his money!
If he had 205k in his account when he was assigned.
Well that's the risk you take when you trade options as opposed to owning shares :L
If only we could all buy stock with money we don't have.
@@shibity you can, just take out a personal loan for 15k when the market crashes and use margin to leverage at the money leaps options on blue chip stocks xD
@@swordsdboss options are not stocks
Had similar situation occur when I first started selling options. Assignment is late notice and you are paying interest the whole time. Pen risk end of
day close on TSLA is a few % so I’m confused why the broker didn’t call to close out the position.
I switched to selling on the SPX primarily bc it’s cash settled which is advantageous in so many ways. Sorry to hear what happened to this fellow. Few people know the finer workings of the risk in selling options, thanks for getting great info out there.
Some brokers will warn you to close out your short option (or close it for you) if it gets close to being ITM, especially on expiration day. But your broker is not under any obligation to babysit the your position for you. Why didn't the trader exercise his 409 put himself?
People don't feel like talking about losses and bad plays, but those help to pave the route to success. Living is getting it wrong at times, reflecting (not b*tching) on it and improving your method. Cheers mate.
This is some of the most important info I've heard in a long time... very glad I watched this. It's so easy to forget about the after hour activities.
And just so if anyone wondering about early assignments due to ex-dividend dates, you dont have to worry about it when you have a credit put spreads. That's why I like them over debit spreads. Because, you are always obligated to buy if the short leg is assigned.
Close them spreads before expiration, not worth the risk!! 👍
This kind of thing should not be happening at all. Options regulatory council needs to prevent this kind of thing. The ability to exercise an option should depend on the stock's Closing price at 4pm on expiration Friday especially since a trader cant trade options on stocks after 4pm. What happens to the stock price after 4pm should be irrelevant. It is stupid and very costly. Something needs to be done!
It's part of the trade, the buyer of the option can decide if they exercise the option. And they can do so basically whenever.
It's pure convenience on the broker side that they default to exercising the option if you are in the money.
Also funny enough what you described as the solution caused this whole accident. The 409 option wasn't exercised because the closing price wasn't in the money.
As a rule of thumb one should always close option positions manually before the last day as the huge volatility works against you as the option seller.
A maybe better solution would be to have no separate exercise cutoff time, however I can't comment on that as I don't have any competence to discuss that part.
@@mwfiaedev5835 The short strike wasn't ITM either at the close on Friday. However, both the long and short strikes went ITM on Friday (after hours)after it was announced that TSLA would not be included in the S&P 500. The long option should've been exercised automatically by the broker and the person would've never suffered the big loss.
I agree! Options expiring on Friday’s should have the same cut off notice for the underlying share price when normal market hours close. Seems very unfair for the options to be exercised in the after market hours and nothing can be done with the options
ricomajestic remember, the option is a contract - it gives the right of exercise to the purchaser, not to a broker, so a broker can’t exercise. They should all at least provide instant alerts to the client if an option goes in the money in after hours on the expiration date.
@@TochkaZreniya Actually that is not true. Most brokers will automatically exercise your option at expiration in a situation like this if it is in ITM unless you tell them not to. At least that's what TOS would do.
Wow, what a horrible scenario! THANK YOU for this video! I also noticed you have replied to literally dozens of commenters...even duplicate questions, very honorable! THANK YOU! Just subbed 👍
This is why I no longer keep options trades open after the day before expiration regardless of position, too much risk involved that close to expiration. I buy contracts with 2-3 weeks minimum left before expiration and always close my positions 1-2 days before expiration
The threat is with short options.
jabberwocky1969 not necessarily, I’ve had brokers close open calls early on expiration day when the underlying shares are on a run up, screwing me out of profits. I just don’t like dealing with all the negative potential variables on expiration day, so I usually close my weekly Friday expirations on the Wednesday or Thursday before in most cases. Or at the very latest before noon on expiration day, wether it’s a long or short position
Yep. Thats a common sense. I thought everybody knew this shit. I guess not, huh.
Boyer Industries You said the BROKER closed your long call position. Did they, legally, can do it? Why the broker would do it? Are they the counterpart?
Thats why I like Covered Calls. If for some reason I get assigned after close day of expiration it means I met maximum profit. For Spreads and Iron Condors Tasty Trade teaches taking profit @ 50% on 45 DTE positions. Around 21 days evaluate the trade and decide to take profit, roll it out, or hold on for little while longer. I will even take 25-30% profit if it happens in the first two weeks.
Always assume that it best to take profits early and reset with a new trade. I really hate holding on to any trade to day of expiration (exception being Covered Calls - If there is no profit rolling out why close the Covered Call?).
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The video covers well how an after-hour ITM put credit spread can go wrong. It also does remind people the best way to avoid catastrophe is to close the short. However, it left out a lot of the deep discussion in case the short was not closed and what choices one could have, and what their potential pros and cons are. The host said the dude could have exercised his long put position to have saved the damage. In reality, at that moment, the dude would not know his short put would for sure be assigned. I doubt his broker would even let him exercise the long put since his fund was way below what he needed to borrow. Anyway... many people made videos at the time to catch that hype and gain viewership, but nobody actually talked about the realistic nuances, which is kinda disappointing.
The CZcams option gurus teach that your maximum risk on a credit spread is the value of the spread minus the credit. They never talk about the risk of assignment from large moves during after-hours trading. They never discuss the capital requirements to exercise a call or a put; instead, they naively assume that the long option in the credit spread will "automatically" be exercised, offsetting the presumed assignment on the short option.
They promote credit spreads as an easy, low-risk way to generate weekly income. They never talk about the low expected value of this option strategy. One bad trade can wipe out weeks of profits. In this trader's case, one bad TSLA credit spread trade wiped out his $30,000 account. He was one of the lucky ones. Other TSLA credit spread traders report in this thread losses of $300,000 or more.
Why did this trader, knowing he did not have the capital to buy 500 shares of TSLA @$410/share if assigned on his puts, fail to exit those puts prior to the close of the regular session? Why wasn't he monitoring after-hours trading? How could he not know the risk of assignment from larger moves in after-hours trading? This type of risk is identified in the mandatory risk disclosures.
I never let my options expire even if it is OTM I close it out. It’s not worth the risk to keep the contracts open. After watching this I’m even more certain not to let my options expire.
Do you day trade using call debit spreads?
Osmar Castillo nope I don’t day trade.
I tried closing contracts that were "worthless", but my brokerage platform said "N/A" and I felt forced to hold my contracts open. I guess I could have called the brokerage firm.
Q uantum no you can’t close the contracts worthless. You gotta pay at least 1 cent x 100 and in some cases 5 cents x100 to close.
@@nikhilshetty007 Yep better to lose $25 than $30,000 as in this case! TDA minimum is 0.05 I think.
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Great info. Isn't it something that brokerage firm should take care to save their customers (credit/debit spreads are the most conservative strategies within options). Could you please name a brokerage firms, who takes care of these scenarios automatically? Do we have a chance of this scenario occurring before expiration?
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This past Labor Day, I learned to close out all positions before a holiday weekend😂
Had I done that, would of locked in 1900. Instead I'm down to 300 😭
This is now the adult homework so to speak haha. Nice
Why over a holiday weekend?
@@johnwaas4864 more days for shit to hit the fan
Do tell!
How come the 409 put didn't get automatically exercised?
I have the same question.
Because the strike price never reached 409 that day (Friday) and it went worthless, 409 PUT buy order was invalid on Monday.
I belive that excercise on after hours trading is only manual, you have to do this yourself.
@@vking4535 With my brokerage at least, the strike price does not need to reach the strike of your long leg. If the short leg gets assigned, the brokerage automatically exercises your long leg, regardless if the stock price reached it or not.
@@PoopLoop202 I didn't know that long options that are OTM can also be exercised. How is that possible???
That should be illegal. When the mkt closes it should close for everyone.
indeed, my frend
Exactly
it had extended hour , as same as pre-market hour
The market isn’t technically closed, it’s just past the “regular session”. You can still buy and trade stocks and technically trade options if your brokerage allows that.
It does! YOU, Java, call call your broker (3:00 - 4:30 C) and exercise your ITM put just like anyone else.
Thanks so much for the warning! Too bad so many "experts" don't seem to know about this
This exact same scenario happened to me. Still can't believe these wrongheaded rules even exist. OCC listening?
Some facts:
- S&P released critical index information while the options markets were still open. That is potentially illegal and is never supposed to happen.
- A seemingly very safe $1 wide spread disappears only in after-hours and assignment occurred. This rule appears to be completely asinine. Again..OCC ?
I probably have not been trading options quite as long as Chris but I am far from new. I would wager that very traders even know this potentiality is even possible. It shouldn't be!
a game that is designed to cultivate on beginners.
If you don’t understand this can happen, you should not be trading options! It’s very basic stuff. Nobody reads all the details you are ‘required’ to read before requesting options level in your account, then they have this shit happen and freak out. A short leg is always RISK. What’s the very first rule of trading (anything)? Always control your risk!
@@gavinliu2121 But beginners are TOLD that, repeatedly. But they get all goo-goo eyed over hearing about 500% profits in one day. And that’s entirely possible, hell I’ve had trades make over 10x in half a day, sometimes even in 15 minutes. But risk is always lurking. Nobody is preying on anyone else, it’s just a very vicious game. If you don’t understand the rules, and the possibilities, don’t play!
@@brucea550 Okay Einstein LOL
@@barrycw1 I’ll never be able to say ‘the exact same scenario happened to me’. I’ve had my share of bad trades, but not over simple details like letting expiring short options go into afterhours. There is so much free education available, nobody has an excuse for doing something that crazy.
As soon as you say things like “ A seemingly very safe $1 wide spread disappears... ” and then try to blame the clearing house or the broker, it shows you haven’t educated yourself about options and trading rules. The trade didn’t vanish, it played out according to the rules you didn’t understand. Not trying to make you feel worse about it, but it gets old hearing people try to blame the ‘system’ that they didn’t understand.
Great video!
Scott Sheridan at Tastyworks has been saying this for years to Tastyworks customers!
NEVER EVER leave an OTM spread on to expire worthless!
This is why Tastyworks has free/zero closing commissions.
Even still .. Scott would take care of this.
Thought my video was glitching in the beginning
I've always advocated my family and friends to always close before expiration, feels bad for those who let their options expire and this happens
I greatly appreciate this very rare but possible scenario. Great explanation thanks a lot!
You should also talk about scenario where the stock gives out dividend. The short leg could get exercised early (like before ex-dividend date) even though the short leg still has extrinsic value. In this case the extrinsic value is less than the dividend, so it's make sense to exercise the option.
Right, that's an assignment scenario, but that's a different discussion than what is going on and explained in this video.
@@projectfinance Yes, let's not make this confusing.
TD ameritrade closes every negative otm option on my account on fridays. Now I now why. Thanks for the info.
Looks like it is called "pin risk"
Exactly why you always close it out at end. Even if you have to spend a little extra to not achieve max profit never want this unnecessary risk.
True man, Just posted a video about my biggest losses on my channel if youre interested, id love to hear your feedback
Options are a gamble and nothing more. Everyone can think they have the market and charts figured out, but the big boys with the big $$$ got you beat. Invest in good companies and you’ll get good results
What are you even talking about...options can be used to offset risk
This is a bad thought that should have been kept inside their mind and not escape into the wild.
simple
close your option trades before expiration. that should be options 101
Thanks for the video. Usually I never let a position expire, one time I came close. I was in a losing FB Iron Condor(IC) and I was riding it on Friday expiration. The short call was ITM and I was hoping that the stock would lower to allow the challenge call side to become OTM. In the middle of the day the stock never went OTM and I closed the position for a small loss. Luckily that position stayed ITM especially after watching this vid. Now I will never let anything go to expiration - you are no longer in control of the position after the close/after expiration.
I think you can let the long option expire if it's worthless so you can save on the commission and if it by chance moves in the money you can exercise it before 4:30pm as in this case. Is this correct?
@@rupulstilskin I have no idea. I don't know how to exercise a position after hours. I've been assigned and have exercised a protective option, but never after hours
With $TSLA ask and bid how was he able to sell a $1 spread with $1 premium.
Because selling a put a little bit over the put that you bought decreases the price essentially. He wasn’t buying a 409 put outright, he was reducing the cost with the short 410 put
Thank you for sharing this. I'll be closing my positions from here on out instead of letting them expire. Max profit isn't worth the potential of losing large sums of money.
You got it! You just have to make sure to close the short options. You can't get assigned on options you own. I trade with tastyworks and they automatically close near-the-money options for you before expiration to avoid this type of thing. Some commenters have mentioned their brokerages do the same.
Save some commission, just buy back the sold strike. Only the buyer of the option has the right to exercise.
This is why I always get out on Thursday
**** It's well worth noting that during most of the first 3 hours of the TSLA regular trading session on the 9/4/20 option expiration day, the trader's credit-spread options were all ITM; during that time, TSLA traded down to 372, placing all the trader's options 37 to 38 points DEEP IN THE MONEY! Despite the writing on the wall, the trader did not exit his credit spreads. I suppose he was determined to keep every penny of the chump change he got for selling those spreads.
Correct. But either way he should not have owed more than the max loss which was $500 dollars.
Guy was there collecting pennies and lost whopping 30K. Sending prayers to him. Thank you for this video chris.
yeah man, feels terrible. imagine going to bed thinking you pocketed a nice $2500 only to wake up to that nightmare.
He probably should have collected pennies on T or BAC or WTRH or WKHS lol.
@@G33KST4R He has since committed suicide. RIP sir :-( Please be careful everyone.
A Hass wtf? :/
@@pazuzuxx Source?
Always need to close positions before closing on expiration
Great reminder!
Even with selling puts and covered calls?
@@TheSupermannbatman yeah for selling puts bit for covered calls would depend of your willing to take the risk of assignment
@@TheSupermannbatman With selling puts especially!
It depends on if you can take assignment. If you short a put and you have no problem being assigned to take stock, then you don't need to close. If you have a covered call, getting assigned on the short call just means selling your shares. You can't lose huge sums of money in either scenario (assuming we are talking about a cash-secured put). In this spread example, the assignment led to a massively leveraged position and that's why it was a huge problem.
Wow I never knew they can exercise after market close
Yes market closes at 400 pm but you can still trade up to 415 pm
@@charlierobles316 but you can't trade options after market close
I knew they are exercised/assigned after hours, BUT I did not know the price they use is the aftermarket/extended hours price not the price at the close of trading. Tricky!
@{Forbidden.Knowledge} That's not the point - the fact they used the aftermarket price and not the closing price at 4:00 ET to determine ITM/OTM and they did not exercise his long position which would normally hedge the short position. Not many traders realize this.
@@chrisguli2865 They still use the closing price to decide what to automatically exercise. If you own calls or puts you have the right to exercise them at the strike price. It doesn't matter the reason why which might not necessarily be related to the underlying price.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Chris, I was not aware this could happen. I feel for the guy, I really do. I hope that he recovers
However, as appealing as TSLA options are I wouldn't go near them even if Elon was to personally donate them!! I'll stick to picking up small crumbs of profit from BAC, T, SO etc... While I take nothing for granted they at least allow me to sleep at night.
Thank you for sharing this, a lesson everyone needs to keep in mind.
This is so sad 😞, I try to close all positions before they expire. But I am always stressed about spreads...thanks for this video 👍
Same issue here. Sometimes spread can be quite high. As no one trading that option pairs.
Great video man. I have a small group comprised of some newer traders and we talked about this extensively. You literally may have saved someone's life with this video.
Always close out credit spreads on equity and ETF options. SPX weekly options are cash settled at close on expiration day at 3 PM CT so you don't have to worry about after hours price moves.
Very good remark on SPX cash settled, thank you.
Thanks for this informative massage !
Yeah...thanks for the reminder on this.However, while you don't have to worry about assignment risk, the SPX is SO VOLATILE that it can really hurt you. Especially if you are doing 0 DTE (same day expiration trades).
Still it is good to know that it is GOOD PRACTICE to just sell short positions before expiration as a RULE of THUMB
Why wouldn’t the broker exercise the leg of the debit spread that the traded bought?
Theyre not obligated to which is BS
@{Forbidden.Knowledge} TDA would have exercised the long; do you know which brokerage he was using; because not ALL brokerages would do this.
Exactly, this should be standard.
{Forbidden.Knowledge} great thing to post here lol
Most likely Robinhood
Thank you for sharing this very heavy lesson Chris! This a great video that all new options traders need to watch and take to heart.
Why wouldn’t their broker exercise the 409’s for them???
In this case they should have, but without knowing the purpose of the puts the broker should not exercise. I sell puts to buy stocks at times and sometimes sell just for the easy money, so it's not really always black and white.
Philip Rollins I would think exercising an ITM put for you client would be a no brainer. very sad scenario, especially if they opened the trade as a spread.
That was a hard lesson to learn there, I feel for the guy or girl but he or she should of just took the 500 and called it a wrap. This is a classic case of doing to much.
SPX - can’t get assigned.
What a nightmare.
thank you for the heads up. I do nothing but put credit spreads and I've always let everything expire. Now I know this can happen and will close it before it expires to avoid this problem.
You got it. You just need to close out the short option to be sure, as you can't get assigned on an option you own.
@@projectfinance we all know shit happens but to actually know what can happen, it's marvelous. Thanks for making great beneficial videos!!
@@enyamet so this can happen with buying puts as well? I was thinking it was just for selling.
@@MrJStew11 as CB just said, it only applies to the short option (what you have sold). When buying puts, you own them and cannot be assigned, rather YOU have the right to exercise them (which will result in assignment to another trader I think).
@@3fortheroad Thanks for clarifying
That’s crazy. I didn’t know that. Always thought options expire right at market close. I guess if he was aware of the after hours move he could have exercised his 409 put, after he was assigned...?
Daniel Salvaggio he should have in advance...
@Dam Winchester Not having 100 shares should not be problem, you are just short 100 shares. And you could always buy 100 shares anyway.
Great video! Very informative and what a valuable lesson! Thank you for providing this info since I would rather learn from you on youtube than to be that guy losing $30,000 after hours!
Very good explanation. Very understandable. I didn't know about little details like options being vulnerable to 'after' market moves on expiration day until it happened to come up when I was asking my brokerage other questions.
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This happened to me with MU once. I woke up with 100 shares confused as to how I got assigned but MU just bounces back so I sold it the next day.
I was wondering about this for the longest time. I understand now. Sucks he couldn't hold his shares to sell it pre market the next day. What a way to blow up a small account :(
Yeah it is truly unfortunate and sad. I'm hoping there is some resolution met between the brokerage firm and trader.
Wow thats super annoying. Thanks for sharing. Hence the importance of closing otm spreads for pennies, and having a broker with cheap commissions. But honestly, 8 points otm is not far enough or is not safe enough for Tesla stock I would have definitely closed it intraday. What kind of stock moved so much after hours on a Friday that is ridiculous in summary or in conclusion don't trade Tesla.
This was a news driven move after hours when the S&P 500 committee decision came out. Doo doo occurs but it is sooooo important to aquire a deep understanding of any instrument you trade, especially derivatives.
@@marthak1618 ya for sure, but I honestly thinj the mistake here was assuming 8 points otm was safe for a stock like tesla
Exactly! that guy had some serious balls holding into close, only $8 away from his strike price, especially with Tesla
@@ShihabPersonalFinance I agree... An equity that can swing up 100 pts in a day can swing down the same. Get out!
Never ever hold to expiration. Don't get greedy for 100% just close it and roll your buying power to another position.
Well said Ataraxia_Atom ...
Cool name btw~
Chris, you are a god! Please keep doing what you are doing. it is such a tremendous service to all of us learning to trade options
Hello Chris, thanks for sharing this. I don't get the meaning of the closing Bell, I though the market would close at 4pm and was not able to take any action after 4 pm.
You can exercise any option you own after the market closes. There's about an hour and a half to do so, but less depending on your brokerage firm. Apparently Robinhood does not allow after-hours exercising. But you can still be assigned because getting assigned doesn't have to do with your brokerage firm's rules. ANY trader at ANY brokerage firm who is short an option can be assigned.
@@projectfinance ok thanks, but I do not understand how the stock market prices can move after the closing Bell. As you explained.
@@VivalatinaJewelry Stocks trade for a number of hours after and before regular market hours. It's called "after-hours" or "extended session" trading.
They did that me one time that was assigned 10 contracts to my account one day before the expiration day !
In the immortal words of Rick, "Brain hurty."
you've been quiet. I hope you're ok
A couple months now..
This guy came into the trading fraternity’s live stream the day of and brought this up. He got shafted.
That was him? Lmaoo
I was just wondering if it was that guy 😂
oooooh, it all makes sense now. Everybody was confused lol. Ouch
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Even more important is to know what NOT TO DO".
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Thanks for sharing this info. Projectoption you are good you lay it out as it is.
Thanks for the warning.
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The option shouldve been automatically exercised when the put was assigned...robinhood actually does this at the same time
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My son is also learning how to make money on forex trading this year with the same trader. He is quite excited about it and trader has been so helpful.
He has helped me with my stock selection and even trading, I am glad he gave me his full assistance and i could make so much profits so far within 2 weeks.
@@arieljasper3751 I have heard a lot about his trading systems in forex, stock market. but i don' t know how get in line.
I'm exited consultant Ben Foster let me join his top earning trading platform & ever since i started trading with foster i have never regretted it.
No doubt BEN FOSTER Trading Services is very good, I invested $5,000 and cashed out $14,700 after 3 weeks. I still wonder how they get their analysis.
I thinks this pandemic has taught people the importance of multiple streams of income unfortunately having a job doesn't means security.if y'all had other sources of income I bet alot of y'all here waiting on this gdam check won't be here...
Another massive source of income idea should be Trading. To be more precise,the forex market or Gold(ETF).
I have been investing in this avenues for a while now and my investment has been great with constant inflows of profits
There're actually 2 possible ways to enter the forex market.Either as a trade or an investor.
I chose to be investor,having a portfolio manager handle my trading account since I have no experience in trading
Wow feel more comfortable seeing you recommend Expert Cassey I can also attest to her professional skills I was able to withdraw $5,500USd worth of Bitcoin last week......
I lost about $4000 to some unprofessional brokers before I was linked to Expert CASSEY and believe me she helped me recover the $4000 and made an extra profit of $20,550 in the space of 2week,
I'm not here to converse for her but to testify just for what I'm sure of,
Forex trading is more profitable when you invest under the guidance of an Expert broker
If Tesla goes back above $410 next week, that dudes going to literally explode. If only he could have met his margin call before it was liquidated he probably would be made whole in just a few days.
They are at 370 now. Still holding? Careful with this strategy!
Woulda coulda shoulda
SY BENTLEY 400 now
425 lol
Better to close out with surety rather than play mental what if scenarios with yourself (even with a large account)...opportunities always come and go especially with TSLA. FOMO is a malady all traders have to guard against.
This reminds me of my friend who was short some $10 calls on KODK after it had ran up on that bs news, around the $4-5 dollar range. When he woke up that morning that trump talked about the KODK deal to produce vaccines, the price ran all the way to $60 and he lost about 33k. Mind you, this guy had like a 60k account, so this was a serious blow. I haven't seen him around since. It made me really sad. Of course, in hindsight, he should have just kept the position open, or bought puts at the top to help insulate him from some of the losses, but he closed them out near $40 I believe and left his desk.
Always keep in mind that unlimited risk is truly so, black swans can occur and you don't want to be unprotected from these novelties.
Thanks bud.... I'll write that in my NEVER DO list.
sometimes, this made me feel (the safest) only buying calls or puts, at least if shit happens, you only lost the premium rather than a whole shit of the account.
@@ahmadhusaini8420 - nope ..the best strategy is to sell covered options and close your sell position before expiration day.
@@dheerajs2838 how is that? havent learned. Is it different from sell put vertical?
@@ahmadhusaini8420 yes sell put vertical and sell credit verticals .. that gives you constant premium while providing a protection. I do it at 10-15% probability of losing money. I dont make much per transaction, but almost sure that I will make $200-$500 per day with my current investment. With little bit of risk, I can go update to $1000 but then it can create situation like above ..so I avoid it