This is frankly one of the best interviews I've ever seen. Not only is the interviewer knowledgeable about the industry and directly references the state-of-the-art "competition" (i.e., Frore), but the interviewee is clearly technical and not just a PR guy, despite his position. Really a pleasure to watch this interview.
and hes scared of saying the watts of cooling. this is probably not worth it since it will probably only add a couple of minutes until a mobile chip will start overheating.
I watched a couple of interviews about that frore product as it was interesting, but clearly those interviews are sales extravaganzas lol, not hating on the player, but jez, the people that are interested in these things are thinking about the technical specs - like who do you think you're selling to bro haha
i am skeptical of this tech, the air going through it wont be 100% dust free, i dont see how such small components can work with dust, i am all for their promises of cooling on mobile devices but i dont see it working in irl situation better than what we already have
Honestly i've found at times (not every interview :P ) PCworld journalists to come through with really strong interviews - such as this one, they seem to do their homework and have some understanding combined with great questions and conversation - Ace!.
Good to hear a brief comparison with FRORE Airjet. I recall in one previous interview, Frore mentioned that back pressure is an important metric for their cooling performance, and this one is about 60% of that of Airjet. Interested to see a real-world comparison when this MEMS chip is in production.
@@xmaverickhunterkxthey don't provide enough cooling for Intel and AMD chips, hopefully the technology improves enough by the time Qualcum laptops become mainstream, they are efficient enough to use it. Apple's laptops are efficient enough too but Apple these years is very slow to adopt new technologies.
Man, this guy is what I wish other tech company CXOs would be like. Knowledgeable, respectful, to the point, and not trying to embellish anything. I don't really have much of a use case for ear buds or sub 3mm cooling'; but if this guy is an example of what that company is like, I might just buy something for the sake of it.
Kudos to interviewer for such a great question! That's peak critical thinking; if one is talking about arrays of smaller chips, the number of valves would indeed impact efficiency and design. Would be interesting to see if scaling up is actually practical when compared to a larger model.
Mark is known for his great interviews. He grilled the AMD spokesperson pretty good a couple of weeks ago and it was so refreshingly oldschool that I remember we didn't always used to get all our tech information from CZcamsrs for whom journalism was an acquired side aspect of their job.
I been following xMEMS for some time because I thinks MEMS based speaker are a really neat tech, but that is another good application of the tech, nice to see them taking the opportunity
It'll be B2B and likely seen in thin light products wanting better performance. So laptops, tablets, mobile gaming devices, SBCs, SFF builds, and such.
This sounds like this could cause micro cracks in chips & cause interference related issues in chip with earths magnetic fields or even generate Eddy currents within chips due to nearby magnetic fields
I wonder will they get caked with dust and stop working like fans, can they run in reverse to push the dust out and then run normal to start cooling again.
@@raymonddsouza8948wait a min! Wut. The tech is indeed impressive. How does one reverse the flow of air? Thought it worked by moving a thin piece back and forth with a piezoelectric effect. Like someone waving an old hand fan. I would like to see why this wasn't done before, and what advances in manufacturing or materials it took before it could be done. It is a solid piece of tech. Uh um literally!
Will they also launch the world's smallest replaceable HEPA filter? :D This might be more useful in a data center, with heavily filtered air. You could have cooling mounted right to the SSD (or something else that doesn't take gobs of power) and then require less case wide cooling.
I didn't bring this up, but xMEMS says that it's IP58 dust- and moisture-resistant. To be honest, the IP specs don't seem to go into too much detail as to what that means in terms of particulate size and so on. It's a good question, though.
This sounds like this could cause micro cracks in chips & cause interference related issues in chip with earths magnetic fields or even generate Eddy currents within chips due to nearby magnetic fields
@@soulsbourne Piezoelectrics do not use magnetic force, and besides, the electronics inside a phone are already exposed to tons of rapidly varying magnetic and electric fields.
For anyone actually looking for an answer at how effective it is at cooling. On a snap dragon 8 gen 2 with a vapor chamber that's 2 inches by 2 inches by 0.1 inches, and paired with 8 gigs of lpddr4 ram running a game like CODM on maximum graphics, it'll be able to keep it 4.5 degrees farenheit cooler than with the vapor chamber alone.
@@ezrakornfeld8436Haven't seen the entire video. Seen this company float a golf ball with a tiny chip. Think it was them. It was an amazing demonstration, and made me think holy shit.
I do wonder how airflow would work with smartphones when they've basically been trending towards sealing for water resistance purposes. If you're then opening up paths for airflow, how does that get dealt with in terms of water ingress.
It looks like this may be used to move heat away from the chips themselves to somewhere else within the device, likely a heatsink or similar, the hot air carrying that heat away. The point being it moves the heat away from where it will limit performance (like the surface of a chip), to somewhere where that heat is not going to cause a problem, like a heatsink or perhaps even to the outer casing of the phone (and then conduction pulls the heat out of the phone), but all this happens within a sealed device, rather than having open airflow in and out of the device. Just my guess.
@@raymonddsouza8948 air will never be as efficient as direct contact in terms of heat transfer. Hence my struggle to understand. I don't understand why you won't just use a heatpipe or graphene sheet or similar.
@@cassiohuithis is definitely more suited towards consumer electronics that doesnt need ingress protection, this technology would definitely replace the traditional heatsink + small fan combo in smaller devices such as a microcontroller, no way this would replace vapor chamber for smartphones anytime soon.
This is amazing. I have been saying Frore needs to start getting into products reaching out etc.. and now to see more people doing this.. I LOVE it.. This is going to be game changer I swear on it..
8 inch wafers means +130nm, 180/250/350nm. The 8in to 12in transition was in the early 2000's and 130nm and 90nm where the "new" processes during the transition period.
In standard lithography, you are absolutely right and you present a good summary, however, MEMS wafers are specifically designed for micro-electromechanical systems. They have different properties, such as thickness, positive photoresist coatings, and additional layers, to accommodate the MEMS - 1nm min feature 0.5 μm - fabrication processes. Handling and processing ultra-thin MEMS wafers often require special tools like carrier wafers or support wafers, typically blank plates.
The silicon-on-insulator micromachining PiezoMUMPs process has the following general features: 1. A silicon-on-insulator (SOI) wafer is used as the starting substrate. The substrate has the following characteristics: • 150 mm (100) oriented SOI wafer. o Silicon thickness: 10 ± 1 µm o Oxide thickness: 1 ± 0.05 µm o Handle wafer (Substrate) thickness: 400 ± 5 µm 2. The Silicon layer is doped, then patterned and etched down to the Oxide layer. This layer can be used for mechanical structures, resistor structures, and/or electrical routing. 3. The Substrate can be patterned and etched from the “bottom” side to the Oxide layer. This allows for through-hole structures. 4. A thermal oxide layer is patterned and etched to provide isolation between the SOI layer and the AlN and PadMetal layers. 5. A piezoelectric layer, AlN, allows for the development of piezoelectric sensors. 6. A pad-metal feature that allows finer metal features and precision alignment but limited to areas not etched in the silicon device layer.
Dude.. awesome idea! Let's take it up a notch and sandwich a peltier component in between the chip and mems cooler and you'll have such a killer product.
I was thinking the same. With vents providing openings, this definitely my first concern. Maybe the vented areas are sealed off separately from everything else that doesn’t need to be cooled as much.
@@minivuvu Good idea. However wouldn't they still leave the cooler itself prone to getting clogged? I suppose as long as it could be cleaned with compressed air or a light rinse it would be ok, I'm just curious because they didn't mention it in the video.
The problem is mainstream markets. Not even seeing airjet or developer tryout boards even after a couple of years. Then again only if Samsung, Apple, OnePlus, Google, Xiaomi etc integrate this meMs FoS package every year otherwise it's another niche product for edge AI
This is actually really really cool. My main concern has nothing to do with the product, but rather with the smartphone manufacturers that will refuse to implement it because it might not allow waterproofing or create a single 1mm slot in the phone's shell that gives designers an aneurysm. Although perhaps merely moving the heat somewhere else inside the shell might be an advantage already.
integrating this inside a low profile nvme m.2 ssd would be a gamechanger for cooling the controller without relying on external airflow to stop throttling and manage the drive's endurance. Of course, vibrations would be a factor to consider
I'm skeptical how something 1mm would effectively cool a phone because they are talking about cooling the chip by getting small areas but it's not just the chip that heats up, it's also the body. So I'm curious how this chip would stand up to laws of thermodynamics.
Will you need two openings in the phone to let out the hot air and replace it with cold air, but this will only make you IP68. Or do you make this piece waterproof?
Integrated cooling via 3D stacking would certainly be interesting for a big efficiency gain in power and area utilization. Given the limited surface area, I'm certain it will always be limited to very lower power chips though.
I really appreciate the tech you are dealing in and its huge, but I have one question: What about dust? in general, the PC fan get dirty and we just open it and clean it once or twice a year. I hope it blow the air out of the device at certain level, if this chip is not ready for blowing the air out of the device then what is the point of circulating hot air inside the device!
With how hot some of the fastest SSD's are getting. If they could collaborate with the right companies, this would be a fantastic opportunity to get rid of the potential overheating problem. And even if it costs a bit extra, most people only need the fastest SSD's for their OS so then Windows will run faster and more responsive. People can still get the cheaper/ slightly slower less hot SSD's for expanding storage. So it should realistically not add that much cost to a PC, I'm sure laptops could greatly benefit from this cooling technology.
I wonder how good these are inside a sealed phone, or will this require some holes to work? And will it cancel the big gains in water protection rating?
Perhaps it would be possible to have a tiny heat pipe or even a more simple metal plate to deliver the heat from the main sealed body into a very small non sealed cavity in from which it would circulate the air? Just an idea, I have no knowledge to base this concept off.
Not too fast without proper testing. What happens if they get plugged with dust, degradation lifetime and power to cooling efficiency compared to other methods?
I think there is an issue with approaching smartphone cooling given the ever greater emphasis on efficiency in smartphones. We want more performance, but we can't very well increase the power because we dont want a larger battery, so that means we want more performance at the same power... Active cooling will still require some additional power to run and will thus provide a worse experience on smartphones that tend to already have rather limited battery lifes.
The specs seem pretty insane. 39 times smaller than AirJet but at 39% the airflow. Stack 3 of these and it wins across the board. I'm curious what the sound profile is like, especially at higher capacities.
I have my doubts that it would scale linearly or that heat removal is as efficient as Frore (it generates significantly less backplane pressure, which is presumably the critical variable that affects heat removal), but in mobile devices where heatsinking into the LCD successfully removes quite a bit of the heat and SoC power usage rarely goes above 5W, this could be a total game changer for improving the performance envelope. Most SoCs won't even go above 50-60C inside the core in order to prevent heat buildup from making holding the device uncomfortable -- with active heat removal, they could probably allow them to turbo up to 70-80C without affecting the skin-temperature feel of the device. Probably will be a game changer for preventing battery degradation and getting local AI chatbots running on mobile devices within the next couple of years.
I'm interested to see how this tech can go. I wonder how good the audio is of headphones that use it compared to other methods. Also for chiplet cooling, how efficient is it as far as power and airflow compared to fans? I wonder how long these things can last without degrading or is there a chance in some months of using it for cooling they can get plugged up with dust? If they did get plugged with dust, can they easily be cleaned?
This is nice tech but whats the tolerance die micro vibrations produced by ultrasonic pulse would it be safe for the chips they are cooling what if there are micro fractures due to it and make a soc useless it should be tested
I don't think phones need this at the moment. 95% of phones are doing well enough with passive cooling and have more than enough performance by a factor of x2. However, ... bring this tech to laptops already. GOD DAMN ! It's been almost 5years.
It doesn't need any power Mr powers, you just charge capacitors in sequence using prime lattice 7 x 1,000uf -> 11 x 500uf -> 13 x 250uf -> 17 x 125uf -> 19 x 63uf -> 23 x 31uf -> 29 x 15uf, just has to be half, one series array to full multiplier at 220v 200mhz, because capacitors just store voltage, especially small ones. Going by half is the most efficient cycle using less than one arrays worth for any size array, just has to be PNP. The prime offset makes the full multiplier always discoherent in every four stages forcing the charge pump with 558 timer logics.
Newtons pSI measured in LBS - lol sound and micro thermals at the nanoscale in MEMS/NEMS measurement of pressure, use "minute differential pressure sensors" (MDPS's), resonant MEMS pressure sensors are the most accurate and stable pressure sensors available. In a counterintuitive paradigm shift that turns intrinsic thermal noise from an impediment to a constituent of the sensor by harvesting it as the driving force, obviating the need for external actuation and realizing ‘noise-driven’ sensors, microspeakers and microcoolers, is what is being discussed, not drag racing cars! 🤣
The thing is that after all these years and all the promise of these things, Frore’s AirJet product is still not widely deployed out in the field. Not sure what the holdup is on this tech.
Itll be internal in a device, so dust will be up to the device manufacturer to solve. The mems device wont be involved with the device's dust seal, itll be right on top of the chip directly soldered to it or otherwise attached permanently.
Dust is what happens with traditional cooling solutions that push aír into the device with fans. This technology might get rid of this issue, at least spreading the heat away from the source so it can be pushed away by fans, that's a problem for thermal dissipation design.
I really hope this technology becomes so cheap that we can just get rid of spinning fans eventually. It's probably 20-30 years away, but a man can hope.
@@POVwithRCwhat do you mean by that? By your logic you should not air cool chips because vibration from fans will kill the silicon? If chips can outlive constant thermal cycling (30-90+C) then these vibrations or no big deal
@@pretentious_a_nessYour example wasn't by my logic. Bit of a difference between a fan humming along at a few thousand cycles a minute buffered by a by air cooler and something humming along at 120k direct to chip. Why are you so offended by someone asking a question? Also, thermal cycling is a totally different set of forces and ideas.
This sounds like this could cause micro cracks in chips & cause interference related issues in chip with earths magnetic fields or even generate Eddy currents within chips due to nearby magnetic fields
Sure for phones this isnt quite as good as they are sealed for water resistance so all it would be doing is cycling the hot air and waiting on the chassis for heat transfer? Thats why you have vapour chambers setup currently linked to thr chassis to help distribute rhe heat quicker. If the phone was open to air then yeah this sounds promising but i dont see that happening unless ive missed something obvious?
That would be an interesting concept with MEMs. They have basically been working on a similar idea since the 90's with microchannels, the silicon itself being the cooling block, but never really went anywhere. The idea got new life in ~2010 thanks to 3d stacking. It was thought that it would be a good way to remove heat from chip stacks.
Cool thing about MEMS at least what I know is that they are extremely reliable because of lack of moving parts. A lot of car components/sensors specially the ones that determine if you were in a car crash use this tech because it is reliable. The actual air bag has issues but not the sensors.
@@erikpienk yes i know they have no moving parts but they will vibrate with this and the air moving could move particles that maybe damage the silicon ,my question was if they fuse this with silicon die of a gpu or cpu will it damage it overtime?
I don't like them referring them as a 'chip' - they need a unique name, here are some freebees: "Harmonic/Sonic/Piezoelectric/Vibrational Heat Exchanger/Dissipator/Sink/Unit/Pump/Module" (HHE, HHD, HHS, HHU, SHD, SHU, SHP, PHD, etc.) or some more creative names like: "Pulse-Pulse Cooler", "Tremor-Tech Cooler", "Silent Force Cooler" Tons of marketable, fun, and way more appropriate names than 'chip'.
This is frankly one of the best interviews I've ever seen. Not only is the interviewer knowledgeable about the industry and directly references the state-of-the-art "competition" (i.e., Frore), but the interviewee is clearly technical and not just a PR guy, despite his position.
Really a pleasure to watch this interview.
and hes scared of saying the watts of cooling. this is probably not worth it since it will probably only add a couple of minutes until a mobile chip will start overheating.
I watched a couple of interviews about that frore product as it was interesting, but clearly those interviews are sales extravaganzas lol, not hating on the player, but jez, the people that are interested in these things are thinking about the technical specs - like who do you think you're selling to bro haha
i am skeptical of this tech, the air going through it wont be 100% dust free, i dont see how such small components can work with dust, i am all for their promises of cooling on mobile devices but i dont see it working in irl situation better than what we already have
Honestly i've found at times (not every interview :P ) PCworld journalists to come through with really strong interviews - such as this one, they seem to do their homework and have some understanding combined with great questions and conversation - Ace!.
Note - a part of producing a great interview is also the person being interviewed ;)
Good to hear a brief comparison with FRORE Airjet. I recall in one previous interview, Frore mentioned that back pressure is an important metric for their cooling performance, and this one is about 60% of that of Airjet. Interested to see a real-world comparison when this MEMS chip is in production.
I was about to write about solid state cooling by FRORE. Solid State cooling perfect for laptops.
@@Ram8as Yet, years later we have 0 laptops with it... what's the deal?
@@xmaverickhunterkxthey don't provide enough cooling for Intel and AMD chips, hopefully the technology improves enough by the time Qualcum laptops become mainstream, they are efficient enough to use it. Apple's laptops are efficient enough too but Apple these years is very slow to adopt new technologies.
@@xmaverickhunterkxthey're being used in other things but it doesn't scale as easily even though it's more efficient
@@Ram8as I'll believe that when it starts scaling.
Man, this guy is what I wish other tech company CXOs would be like. Knowledgeable, respectful, to the point, and not trying to embellish anything. I don't really have much of a use case for ear buds or sub 3mm cooling'; but if this guy is an example of what that company is like, I might just buy something for the sake of it.
Kudos to interviewer for such a great question! That's peak critical thinking; if one is talking about arrays of smaller chips, the number of valves would indeed impact efficiency and design. Would be interesting to see if scaling up is actually practical when compared to a larger model.
Mark is known for his great interviews. He grilled the AMD spokesperson pretty good a couple of weeks ago and it was so refreshingly oldschool that I remember we didn't always used to get all our tech information from CZcamsrs for whom journalism was an acquired side aspect of their job.
really great interview, great answers as well, can't promise or oversell too much
I been following xMEMS for some time because I thinks MEMS based speaker are a really neat tech, but that is another good application of the tech, nice to see them taking the opportunity
So I've always wanted a pair of in ear headphones, with a tiny fan and vents so my ears don't get sweaty.
The future is now.
It is always crazy to see these things working. But they never really talk about pricing. =x
Consumers would never buy it. It's meant to be installed in something you would then buy
It's B2B, people won't be installing this themselves.
@@JBrinx18 This one, OK. But Frore? They could be selling their Airjets like poptarts for people doing mods.
It'll be B2B and likely seen in thin light products wanting better performance. So laptops, tablets, mobile gaming devices, SBCs, SFF builds, and such.
This sounds like this could cause micro cracks in chips & cause interference related issues in chip with earths magnetic fields or even generate Eddy currents within chips due to nearby magnetic fields
This was such a good interview, I was so surprised this was coming from PC world, didn’t know they did interview interviews this good
I wonder will they get caked with dust and stop working like fans, can they run in reverse to push the dust out and then run normal to start cooling again.
Yes, he showed the demo of the chips being able to push air and pull air, bi-directional. Very cool.
@@raymonddsouza8948wait a min! Wut.
The tech is indeed impressive.
How does one reverse the flow of air? Thought it worked by moving a thin piece back and forth with a piezoelectric effect. Like someone waving an old hand fan.
I would like to see why this wasn't done before, and what advances in manufacturing or materials it took before it could be done.
It is a solid piece of tech. Uh um literally!
We've came full circle. Computers used to "whirr" now it "thumps" 😂😂
what about if dust get on the valve that small and also longevity on the moving mems itself?
Will they also launch the world's smallest replaceable HEPA filter? :D
This might be more useful in a data center, with heavily filtered air. You could have cooling mounted right to the SSD (or something else that doesn't take gobs of power) and then require less case wide cooling.
I didn't bring this up, but xMEMS says that it's IP58 dust- and moisture-resistant. To be honest, the IP specs don't seem to go into too much detail as to what that means in terms of particulate size and so on. It's a good question, though.
Maybe it works inside a sealed phone, just spreading the heat around. Not as efficient as a heatpipe for sure, but much smaller.
This sounds like this could cause micro cracks in chips & cause interference related issues in chip with earths magnetic fields or even generate Eddy currents within chips due to nearby magnetic fields
@@soulsbourne Piezoelectrics do not use magnetic force, and besides, the electronics inside a phone are already exposed to tons of rapidly varying magnetic and electric fields.
For anyone actually looking for an answer at how effective it is at cooling.
On a snap dragon 8 gen 2 with a vapor chamber that's 2 inches by 2 inches by 0.1 inches, and paired with 8 gigs of lpddr4 ram running a game like CODM on maximum graphics, it'll be able to keep it 4.5 degrees farenheit cooler than with the vapor chamber alone.
HOLY SHIT THAT TINY THING?!??
@@ezrakornfeld8436
It displaces a shitload of air for it's size yes
Wow that's impressive
@@ezrakornfeld8436Haven't seen the entire video.
Seen this company float a golf ball with a tiny chip. Think it was them.
It was an amazing demonstration, and made me think holy shit.
I can see gaming phones will improve a lot more in the future if this is implemented
I hope the competition can cause these solutions to become more mainstream Ive been waiting for a thin and light with this kind of solution
I do wonder how airflow would work with smartphones when they've basically been trending towards sealing for water resistance purposes. If you're then opening up paths for airflow, how does that get dealt with in terms of water ingress.
@@eirinym agree, same comment as mine above. I struggle to understand how it would work without venting the hot air.
It looks like this may be used to move heat away from the chips themselves to somewhere else within the device, likely a heatsink or similar, the hot air carrying that heat away. The point being it moves the heat away from where it will limit performance (like the surface of a chip), to somewhere where that heat is not going to cause a problem, like a heatsink or perhaps even to the outer casing of the phone (and then conduction pulls the heat out of the phone), but all this happens within a sealed device, rather than having open airflow in and out of the device. Just my guess.
@@raymonddsouza8948 air will never be as efficient as direct contact in terms of heat transfer. Hence my struggle to understand. I don't understand why you won't just use a heatpipe or graphene sheet or similar.
@@cassiohuithis is definitely more suited towards consumer electronics that doesnt need ingress protection, this technology would definitely replace the traditional heatsink + small fan combo in smaller devices such as a microcontroller, no way this would replace vapor chamber for smartphones anytime soon.
@@sephylle Agreed. This is definitely exciting, just probably not in the smartphone space.
This is amazing. I have been saying Frore needs to start getting into products reaching out etc.. and now to see more people doing this.. I LOVE it.. This is going to be game changer I swear on it..
8 inch wafers means +130nm, 180/250/350nm.
The 8in to 12in transition was in the early 2000's and 130nm and 90nm where the "new" processes during the transition period.
In standard lithography, you are absolutely right and you present a good summary, however, MEMS wafers are specifically designed for micro-electromechanical systems.
They have different properties, such as thickness, positive photoresist coatings, and additional layers, to accommodate the MEMS - 1nm min feature 0.5 μm - fabrication processes.
Handling and processing ultra-thin MEMS wafers often require special tools like carrier wafers or support wafers, typically blank plates.
The silicon-on-insulator micromachining PiezoMUMPs process has the following general features:
1. A silicon-on-insulator (SOI) wafer is used as the starting substrate. The substrate has the following characteristics:
• 150 mm (100) oriented SOI wafer.
o Silicon thickness: 10 ± 1 µm
o Oxide thickness: 1 ± 0.05 µm
o Handle wafer (Substrate) thickness: 400 ± 5 µm
2. The Silicon layer is doped, then patterned and etched down to the Oxide layer. This layer can be used for mechanical structures, resistor structures, and/or electrical routing.
3. The Substrate can be patterned and etched from the “bottom” side to the Oxide layer. This allows for through-hole structures.
4. A thermal oxide layer is patterned and etched to provide isolation between the SOI layer and the AlN and PadMetal layers.
5. A piezoelectric layer, AlN, allows for the development of piezoelectric sensors.
6. A pad-metal feature that allows finer metal features and precision alignment but limited to areas not etched in the silicon device layer.
Dude.. awesome idea! Let's take it up a notch and sandwich a peltier component in between the chip and mems cooler and you'll have such a killer product.
Awesome idea. How does this effect water/dust resistance ratings? How much water and dust can these chips take?
I was thinking the same. With vents providing openings, this definitely my first concern. Maybe the vented areas are sealed off separately from everything else that doesn’t need to be cooled as much.
@@minivuvu Good idea. However wouldn't they still leave the cooler itself prone to getting clogged? I suppose as long as it could be cleaned with compressed air or a light rinse it would be ok, I'm just curious because they didn't mention it in the video.
The problem is mainstream markets. Not even seeing airjet or developer tryout boards even after a couple of years. Then again only if Samsung, Apple, OnePlus, Google, Xiaomi etc integrate this meMs FoS package every year otherwise it's another niche product for edge AI
I’m a special ed and I even find this fascinating good job great job. I hope that my son grows up to be an engineer.🇺🇸🦈🇵🇷
How difficult would it be to put that cooling chip into your headphones as an anti-sweat guard or air-conditioning?
Been hearing about these for yeeeeeears. So glad to see them finally coming to fruition!
Absolute pleasure to watch the whole thing.
This is actually really really cool.
My main concern has nothing to do with the product, but rather with the smartphone manufacturers that will refuse to implement it because it might not allow waterproofing or create a single 1mm slot in the phone's shell that gives designers an aneurysm. Although perhaps merely moving the heat somewhere else inside the shell might be an advantage already.
A glass speaker is an interesting idea. I look forward to durability and longevity testing.
integrating this inside a low profile nvme m.2 ssd would be a gamechanger for cooling the controller without relying on external airflow to stop throttling and manage the drive's endurance. Of course, vibrations would be a factor to consider
Wish they had a stackable variant for more pressure. I need about 100x more pressure for my product. I wouldn't mind stacking 100 of them.
This technology has been talked about and showcased for many years, but it never makes it beyond a presentation...
I'm skeptical how something 1mm would effectively cool a phone because they are talking about cooling the chip by getting small areas but it's not just the chip that heats up, it's also the body.
So I'm curious how this chip would stand up to laws of thermodynamics.
hope thses will be on sail for DIY use as i can see them being usable for a lot
M.2 gen 5 needs this
Can be used in routers and oled tvs
OLED would be groundbreaking. It can cool down LEDs so they can be brighter.
Will you need two openings in the phone to let out the hot air and replace it with cold air, but this will only make you IP68. Or do you make this piece waterproof?
I'm extremely excited for the notion of a mems vapour chamber heat pipe integrated with the peizo airflow mems chips
Integrated cooling via 3D stacking would certainly be interesting for a big efficiency gain in power and area utilization. Given the limited surface area, I'm certain it will always be limited to very lower power chips though.
I really appreciate the tech you are dealing in and its huge, but I have one question: What about dust?
in general, the PC fan get dirty and we just open it and clean it once or twice a year.
I hope it blow the air out of the device at certain level, if this chip is not ready for blowing the air out of the device then what is the point of circulating hot air inside the device!
How so you exhausted the air out of the phone? Sealed liquid cooling makes more sense for phones. Can this chip move liquid with some tweaking?
With how hot some of the fastest SSD's are getting. If they could collaborate with the right companies, this would be a fantastic opportunity to get rid of the potential overheating problem.
And even if it costs a bit extra, most people only need the fastest SSD's for their OS so then Windows will run faster and more responsive. People can still get the cheaper/ slightly slower less hot SSD's for expanding storage. So it should realistically not add that much cost to a PC, I'm sure laptops could greatly benefit from this cooling technology.
I wonder how good these are inside a sealed phone, or will this require some holes to work? And will it cancel the big gains in water protection rating?
Perhaps it would be possible to have a tiny heat pipe or even a more simple metal plate to deliver the heat from the main sealed body into a very small non sealed cavity in from which it would circulate the air? Just an idea, I have no knowledge to base this concept off.
Literary very cool stuff, but how do you deal with dust particles on this scale? Will it not get caked in dust and eventually just stop working?
Gaming handhelds will benefit from this
Wow myself and Linus teck tips have been saying someone needs to do this for years now thanks for catching up.
hope it goes mainstream fast
Not too fast without proper testing. What happens if they get plugged with dust, degradation lifetime and power to cooling efficiency compared to other methods?
I think there is an issue with approaching smartphone cooling given the ever greater emphasis on efficiency in smartphones. We want more performance, but we can't very well increase the power because we dont want a larger battery, so that means we want more performance at the same power... Active cooling will still require some additional power to run and will thus provide a worse experience on smartphones that tend to already have rather limited battery lifes.
True but this is different I've herd it doesn't take much power at all from the battery and it's small for a reason imo that's impressive
Might need a conductor to release the heat to the environment, as mobile phones are typically water resistant, so external airflow near non existant.
Is this for air only or could they also pump a thin cooling liquid?
Should have a little fin at the end to direct the air away from mother board
noctua, hire this man
what about water proof phones, if the whole phone is sealed so that water cant get in, how the hot air will come out from those phones?
I want to know one thing, will this affect the water resistance of devices?
What I'm worried about is the dust accumulation and durability of the MEMs cooling fan.
The specs seem pretty insane. 39 times smaller than AirJet but at 39% the airflow. Stack 3 of these and it wins across the board. I'm curious what the sound profile is like, especially at higher capacities.
I have my doubts that it would scale linearly or that heat removal is as efficient as Frore (it generates significantly less backplane pressure, which is presumably the critical variable that affects heat removal), but in mobile devices where heatsinking into the LCD successfully removes quite a bit of the heat and SoC power usage rarely goes above 5W, this could be a total game changer for improving the performance envelope. Most SoCs won't even go above 50-60C inside the core in order to prevent heat buildup from making holding the device uncomfortable -- with active heat removal, they could probably allow them to turbo up to 70-80C without affecting the skin-temperature feel of the device.
Probably will be a game changer for preventing battery degradation and getting local AI chatbots running on mobile devices within the next couple of years.
@@emilemil1 not sure if it works stacked, to be honest...
Awesome. Competition is great for any industry!!!
I'm interested to see how this tech can go. I wonder how good the audio is of headphones that use it compared to other methods. Also for chiplet cooling, how efficient is it as far as power and airflow compared to fans? I wonder how long these things can last without degrading or is there a chance in some months of using it for cooling they can get plugged up with dust? If they did get plugged with dust, can they easily be cleaned?
This is nice tech but whats the tolerance die micro vibrations produced by ultrasonic pulse would it be safe for the chips they are cooling what if there are micro fractures due to it and make a soc useless it should be tested
What's the efficiency like? Obviously if the thing has low efficiency it will generate heat and may have little value.
Now this one is looking much more interesting unlike the first one claiming it can cool without air vents according to the guy that presented it.
I hate people who dodge questions with non-answers.
So you hate politicians and salesmen 😅
@@tungfok1036 exactly
that dude was so underwhelmed during the demo lmfao bro you are literally witnessing a generation shift in the cooling market lmfao
Airflow? On waterproof smartphones that are going to also be covered in a case? Lol
I don't think phones need this at the moment. 95% of phones are doing well enough with passive cooling and have more than enough performance by a factor of x2.
However, ... bring this tech to laptops already. GOD DAMN ! It's been almost 5years.
Proper competition going on chip air cooling.
maybe cooling the CPU won't be an issue in future.
Keep supporting both FRORE and MEMS then.
Very interesting tech i wish to see this in our future smartphones because the weak point that suffer the smartphones is the thermal
What a cool idea. Let's move quickly CPU not peltier, your own. Enter these as a layer it can keep current CPU''s 20° cooler.
It doesn't need any power Mr powers, you just charge capacitors in sequence using prime lattice 7 x 1,000uf -> 11 x 500uf -> 13 x 250uf -> 17 x 125uf -> 19 x 63uf -> 23 x 31uf -> 29 x 15uf, just has to be half, one series array to full multiplier at 220v 200mhz, because capacitors just store voltage, especially small ones. Going by half is the most efficient cycle using less than one arrays worth for any size array, just has to be PNP. The prime offset makes the full multiplier always discoherent in every four stages forcing the charge pump with 558 timer logics.
Brother what
I think this technology will be big!
But how do you clean it when it clogs up with dust and hair?
One of the problem about smartphone, they are used in harsh enviroment. Waterproof may not as good as before.
What a great interview
What is the max newtons thrust from one of these chips?
Newtons pSI measured in LBS - lol sound and micro thermals at the nanoscale in MEMS/NEMS measurement of pressure, use "minute differential pressure sensors" (MDPS's), resonant MEMS pressure sensors are the most accurate and stable pressure sensors available. In a counterintuitive paradigm shift that turns intrinsic thermal noise from an impediment to a constituent of the sensor by harvesting it as the driving force, obviating the need for external actuation and realizing ‘noise-driven’ sensors, microspeakers and microcoolers, is what is being discussed, not drag racing cars! 🤣
How loud is it?
Can this technology also move liquids?
soo what, do we get new headphone technology ? Also could we build supermall and compact and silent vacuum cleaners with this?
So we add moving to the phone
So how much is this going to cost repair
scale this up and we can have truly SILENT fans
with most phones being waterproof now, how would this be effective if the chip has nowhere to exhaust the heat out of the device?
Can this technology be used for active aero control on vehicles? More energy-efficient cars and longer range airplanes, for example.
The thing is that after all these years and all the promise of these things, Frore’s AirJet product is still not widely deployed out in the field. Not sure what the holdup is on this tech.
What about dust build-up?
this is my biggest question for this tech. It has some great potential but if it jams up after 30 days from build up it's worthless.
Itll be internal in a device, so dust will be up to the device manufacturer to solve. The mems device wont be involved with the device's dust seal, itll be right on top of the chip directly soldered to it or otherwise attached permanently.
Dust is what happens with traditional cooling solutions that push aír into the device with fans. This technology might get rid of this issue, at least spreading the heat away from the source so it can be pushed away by fans, that's a problem for thermal dissipation design.
WOW! looks really good.
5:08 I guess that kind of true, redmagic is the only phones I know that has a built-in cooling fan.
There were the legion phones too.
Would love this and airjet to be available on CPU and GPU applications
pretty sure some other people called him Professor X. and he is xMEMS right?
Follow your instincts. That is where true wisdom manifests itself.
Make an NVMe heatsink, xMEMs & Frore! Esp for desktop users, this would be minimal power draw for a big win.
Whats the difference between this and Frore systems?
I really interested in this technology and wait it to spread aout
I really hope this technology becomes so cheap that we can just get rid of spinning fans eventually. It's probably 20-30 years away, but a man can hope.
Curious how something vibing at a few hundred K on an SOC would impact longevity.
A lot of mems devices are active and internally vibrate without issue. Mems can vibrate for practically eternity.
@@AaronALAIJust because the mems can that doesn't mean what it is attached to can
@@POVwithRCwhat do you mean by that? By your logic you should not air cool chips because vibration from fans will kill the silicon? If chips can outlive constant thermal cycling (30-90+C) then these vibrations or no big deal
@@pretentious_a_nessYour example wasn't by my logic. Bit of a difference between a fan humming along at a few thousand cycles a minute buffered by a by air cooler and something humming along at 120k direct to chip. Why are you so offended by someone asking a question?
Also, thermal cycling is a totally different set of forces and ideas.
This sounds like this could cause micro cracks in chips & cause interference related issues in chip with earths magnetic fields or even generate Eddy currents within chips due to nearby magnetic fields
Sure for phones this isnt quite as good as they are sealed for water resistance so all it would be doing is cycling the hot air and waiting on the chassis for heat transfer?
Thats why you have vapour chambers setup currently linked to thr chassis to help distribute rhe heat quicker. If the phone was open to air then yeah this sounds promising but i dont see that happening unless ive missed something obvious?
I wonder how this would work on the phone with sealed pressurized nitrogen cooling loop.
FRORE has competition, maybe not in the same market, but the more players there are the quicker we'll see this technology in our devices.
Imagine a thin liquid cooling block powered by the MEMS... a CPU liquid cooling block being its own pump :)
That would be an interesting concept with MEMs.
They have basically been working on a similar idea since the 90's with microchannels, the silicon itself being the cooling block, but never really went anywhere.
The idea got new life in ~2010 thanks to 3d stacking. It was thought that it would be a good way to remove heat from chip stacks.
Murata were doing very similar 20 yrs ago, have the patents run out.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
if you place it with silicon die this will make it vibrate , so what about metal fatigue? will it crack the die ?
Cool thing about MEMS at least what I know is that they are extremely reliable because of lack of moving parts. A lot of car components/sensors specially the ones that determine if you were in a car crash use this tech because it is reliable. The actual air bag has issues but not the sensors.
@@erikpienk yes i know they have no moving parts but they will vibrate with this and the air moving could move particles that maybe damage the silicon ,my question was if they fuse this with silicon die of a gpu or cpu will it damage it overtime?
I don't like them referring them as a 'chip' - they need a unique name, here are some freebees: "Harmonic/Sonic/Piezoelectric/Vibrational Heat Exchanger/Dissipator/Sink/Unit/Pump/Module" (HHE, HHD, HHS, HHU, SHD, SHU, SHP, PHD, etc.) or some more creative names like: "Pulse-Pulse Cooler", "Tremor-Tech Cooler", "Silent Force Cooler"
Tons of marketable, fun, and way more appropriate names than 'chip'.
Chip sounds more straightforward than what you suggested.
probably just for gaming phones with vent right? because smartphones like samsung and apple are airtight
How much power does it draw?
1mm is incredibly small
I'd love to see this in a DAP, those things get hot.