What always gave me chills was the Vorlon asking if they would be alone. Like a frightened child. Like the Shadow sounded. And then you realize neither one was good or bad, wrong or right. They just were different.
@@confusedzentradi The Vorlons weren't right but the Shadows were pretty wrong. And for such an advanced race they had no real understanding of evolution.
I remember watching this scene and was amazed that the Shadow asking like a little child if he was going with them. The Vorlon sounding like a child too. I'm glad I found this scene.
***** not so sure about him snapping necks, older doesnt mean stronger, for example the shadows are much older than the vorlons but it seems that is far easier to kill a shadow than a vorlon.
I love how they ended the war with the Shadows. Not by some super-powerful ancient weapon, not by killing one guy (ship) and the rest of the army falls down (I'm looking at you Game of Thrones). No, they finished it with a truce and the end of the cycle. Older races are leaving the galaxy and are giving younger races the chance to grow. It feels satisfying and not cliche.
@@insertanynameyouwant5311 The fact that these two brilliant long-form shows aired at the same time is just astounding to me, even now, 20+ years later.
I disliked it. The climax of the war had been prepared so carefully over more than 3 seasons and now a "get the hell out of our galaxy"? like a John Wayne western? It deserved better. While I did like the opposite philosophical stances of both the Shadows and Vorlons and the fact that Sheridan refused to choose, but it just felt so hokey, I don't know, seen it a dozen times and every time it feels jarring that a show is so well written ends up with this rather lukewarm lame resolution of the central conflict. I expected better.
simultaneously inspiring and frightening to be told "this place is yours now we leave it to the next generation See you when it's time for you to join us"
It's almost like a invitation to make sure your race survives long enough to evolve to beings of energy and join the older races "beyond the rim" for a new journey
The Vorlons and the Shadows. Two immensely powerful and ancient peoples, feared by the younger races, and yet faced with the possibility of being without Lorien, their caretaker and teacher, they seem like children, afraid to go on a journey without their parents, or to be alone.
notice that their humility towards Lorien actually answers their questions. The Vorlon are not "alone" and don't wnat to become "alone", while the shadows answer what they want, they want Lorien to go with them.
I always thought this was a sad episode.. Despite the Shadows and Vorlons being godlike.. They needed guidance and childlike themselves.... JMS got B5 absolutely spot on.. Best SF series of all time..
It was really cool how the Vorlon and the Shadow were talking they sounded like children begging there parents not to leave them because they are afraid to be alone
+Tracey Morgan It seems, they stayed behind not just because they thought they should guide, they were afraid to move on into the unknown. They really did look up to this being and his species.
slitor And that was the most genuine question they have ever asked in the entire show, in a voice & tone they have never used. Of the entire scene, that line I remember most clearly... it embodied so much.
+slitor It showed to me, that no matter how old the shadows or vorlons were..to Lorien they were still like children..and they looked to him and spoke to him like a child would..wanting their hand held afraid to go alone without daddy/mommy...very touching
0:26 - The almost childlike way the Shadow asked Lorien if he would be going with them is something I never forgot. Even in the midst of their endless war with each other, the Vorlons and Shadows, and likely all of the other First Ones, saw him as their “father”, and held him in the highest regard. How many races did he nurture and guide over the countless millennia? Few shows had such a storyline that remained so strong, and left so many lasting memories, as did B5.
Lorien was wrong about one thing: he believed love was an illusion. What really makes you see this is the way he appears and interacts with the Shadows and Vorlons. He choose to hide and isolate himself because he believed that failed as a teacher and father figure to them. Seeing what his children had become must have been the most painful thing that he had to endure, and lied to himself to ease the pain. But when he met up with and spoke with them again, he spoke to them with great affection and assured them that they would never be alone. In the moment, Lorien showed that for as long of a life as he has had, he was still very much capable of feeling and appreciating love.
He didn't think love was an illusion. He believed that belief in the concept of 'eternal love' was a luxury afforded to those whose lives are fleeting, to mortals.
No, he didn't believe it to be an illusion. But when you get to be as ancient as he is, you see how it can be a fleeting thing, that it will eventually fade and people will drift apart from each other. Remember, he is the very first sapient being in the galaxy. He has been around for a very, very long time.
I love the fact that Lorien was played by Wayne Alexander who also portrayed The Inquistor who was remembered not as as messenger, remembered not as reformer, not as a prophet, not as a hero, not even as...Sabastian, remembered only as Jack. Gotta love B5.
And when they, the evolved Minbari and other evolved races go to meet Lorien, the Vorlons and the Shadows, each of them express happiness that the "Younger" races have reached their level and joined them on a higher plane of existence.
@@girlgarde IIRC, why did he choose to be mostly bald with some hair and a mustache? Why not completely bald and totally hairless? IIRC, he has an awkward combination where he wants to retain some parts of his head hair and facial hair, but then is bald with large patches of hair missing...resembling a guy experiencing baldness but doesn't want to go totally bald because he wants to hang on to his hair.
@@Intranetusa Maybe they just grow up and stop caring about such a trivial and not important detail :) And c'mon he was just energy - maybe he just liked this looks somewhere from his favourite old, old, very old movie?
What i always loved about this show are the non-humanoid aliens. Even when the CGI was limited, they didn't shy away from showing strange, non-humanoid creatures in main roles, something I never quite liked about Star Trek. Heck, i still think the designs for the Vorlon and the Shadows are great.
yes..tought the shadows were quite an exception as they showed very little due to obvious filming reasons.. the rest of the races were "humanoid" .. they played with masks and limbs but save for some insectoid ones they were vastly "humanoid"
@@Platschu LOL! I was just about to say that, like the Orfa, Swapmarans, Shivans and the Kambutckas ( they look like a fucked up club sandwich ) 😄 Star Control 2 was good for that also.
i think this scene is best described by sheridan's argument the both shadows and vorlons behaved like a divorced couple putting their kids to fight and decide who they love more. is about grow and letting go. is nature's law.
@Leo Polled Hadn't thought of that. Good point. Come to think of it, Delenn was pretty much Galadrial. Her bone piece even stood in for Galadrial's tiara. Only difference is she stays.
@@jamesmartin9401 There are lots of correlations between Babylon 5 and LOTR. In some ways Kosh is like Gandalf - a secret representative of higher powers manipulating events to create an army of light.
@@DeltaPi314 Oh, geez, another B5 fanboy Star Trek hater. Funny thing is, most Star Trek fans like Babylon 5. Y'all are just parroting JMS getting his feelings hurt by Paramount/CBS.
Those two suddenly sound so innocent and lost. They were more afraid to venture forth instead of the reasons they gave, and much more in need of guidance than the younger races.
Lorien is a First Born. His kind are the parents, the Guardians of Order and Chaos, to the Vorlons and the Shadows; that's why they sound so child-like. Lorien is the only parent that stayed with them when the rest of the First Born left. Now they need him one final time: to guide them into the unknown.
+Nigel Baldes agreed and Lorien being the very first one..would be like a god to everyone even the other first ones..because he was...THE first one..wow..what a title
I found it so ironic that the whole arc(s), involving the Vorlons and Shadows could be boiled down to one simple thing. They were afraid of being lonely or forgotten, Kind of a childish thing, for such ancient beings to fear
Ask your grandparents how they feel when you forget to call them. Ask your parents the same. No one likes to be alone. Even people who live alone need contact with others, however temporary.
This scene is actually sad after everything that the Shadows and Vorlons went trough ,all the fighting , what mess they did in the galaxy, they finally understand that maybe they made a mistake and starting to realize what they did, the way they asked Lorean if he will come w/them is moving, they don't want to be alone.. another thing I loved that Sheridan joined them he deserve to be there as he and later Delenn helped them to understand what mess they did he should be there w/them.. I wonder if Sinclair was there too and if Delenn joined them?
I read somewhere that people think so that he is there. I think JMS tried to do something w/his story and Talia but dropped it in season 2 when the actress wanted to leave
You know what I just now realize. Besides the shadows, and the Vorlons. The other races that stayed behind home planets still might have their technology left behind.
The reason he said what he said about younger races is eventually each of the older races transformed into energy and so when we get older in the galaxy we will pass beyond the rim and give the younger races the same opportunity we had. Even the shadows were in suits like the vorlon because they were energy creatures just like the rest.
To a higher bring, the Vorlons and Shadows are like these two an angry pet birds in a cage, alone in their own way, but happy to be with their mentor on a trip beyond the rim.
Yeah and while they were praking, Lorien getting annoyed with their raucous: "Stop this! Order!" To which the Vorlon exclaims "See, he agrees with us!!!" and Lorien raising his eyes, sighing, speaking quitely "Will they ever learn? Time to put their toys away"
It’s funny, moments ago they were ruthless and bent on the execution of billions to continue their war And then when that old man told them to leave, they asked if he could come with them to the next Galaxy. Like two children afraid of traveling a great distance without a parent. Odd how prospective changes so quickly for those two
Lorian is a grandparent telling the parents of the grandchildren that he very much admires what they are growing into to step aside and let them grow and be themselves
as much as i would love to have seen babylon 5 continue in more shows or other forms, i'm glad they have kept it contained to the show (and the few novelized continuations). its a fantastic story that isnt bogged down or otherwise sullied by mediocrity or modern "political correctness"
In the end, B5 is a reflection of our history, which is why it's lessons are so universal and not bogged down by the political culture of 'current year'. It represents a long view of history and the recognition of the mistakes and triumphs that happen over and over. And it does so with the humility of just telling the story instead of shoving it down your throat or judging you. It respects the viewers' intelligence to figure it out.
I will never understand anyone who says babylon 5 isn't political. It's like calling the original Star Trek right wing. The hell it is. Were we watching the same show?? Mostly I think people weren't as jaded when they first watched it. Any modern audience watching it now would kneejerk their way to orbit from the * strong female characters * anti-religion themes * multiculturalism themes * anti-fascim themes * bodily autonomy themes * anti-war themes etc
@@tsm688 "anti-religion themes" >remembers the episode where every alien race shows off their religion, ending the episode with Sheridan _personally introducing_ the aliens to a representative of _every single human religion._ besides, I never said the show was not "political," but it was not brazen in its messaging nor was it pushing for irrational and backwards-thinking points like so much of the, and I reiterate the point I made in my first comment; "political correctness" *_(AKA SJW's and people of that sort who are skewing legitimate talking points into brazen madness)_* AKA the B5 had good points to make and it made them in an aesthetically pleasing manner. It was not woke-ass propaganda like, lets say, Indiana Jones and the 'death of Disney' which is straight-up propaganda and a destruction of one of the most revered franchises of cinema.
Every Sunday morning this was on Norwegian tv(or maybe Saturday) and as a kid I was a devoted follower.. Norway has never made sci fi.. we are way to down to earth (puke)
I had to set my alarm clock so that I could record it at 3 in the morning as a kid, because it aired at this ungodly time here in germany and our VCR couldn't be programmed.
The ancient godlike beings are just as much afraid of loneliness as we are. It is the nature of all consciousness to connect with another, to be part of a community.
Absolutely loved this show!!! Back in the Philippines this'd be my Wednesday night event, with Star Trek: TNG on Fridays and SeaQuest DSV on Thursdays... Never liked all the latinovela and the local melodrama crap that they turn up on a regular basis (even worse nowadays when the stupid fucks started ripping off koreanovela shticks!!!) makes me think of reconsuming vomit a thousand times over!!!
+Pearl Blake lol, you are like a long lost cousin. My older family members was always watching the spanish novelas and portuguese novelas, while I was cringing and hoping for B5 or TNG/DS9. I'll admit though, I find some of the Korean Novelas a little more tolerable because they can be funny.
As I've grown older. And I stopped doing things such as watching wrestling and preordering games. Lorien's speech gives me comfort. My time doing these things are over, my twight has risen. It's time for the new fans to come into their own.
After the magic dissapeared there was a nice little idea in the Crusade series that unfortunatly didn't have the budget staff or writing to succed. Where "The hand" from that other dimension was even more powerful and mysterious than the shadows supposedly.
Ok, let me put a Grimdark spin on this. Ten million years in the future the humans and minbaris evolve together and transcend into beings of pure energy without need of physical vessels. They have done their jobs as mentors of the galaxy and are about to transcend. They reach over the rim, just to find one individual of unknown species waiting there for them. "Where are the others? Where are the Vorlons? Where are the Shadows? Where is Lorien?" The Humans and Minbari ask. "I am all that is left" comes the answer.
I always wondered if when he mentioned the ones who went ahead of them and who they missed, was he refering to others of their respective races or other First Ones races
Personally I think he meant all the other First Ones races. The Vorlons and Shadows stayed behind while the other races left, and I think that generally they had very good relations with each other, or at least a level of respect and understanding. The Vorlons and Shadows were enemies, but even they were never out to destroy each other.
I always liked to think the Vorlons and Shadows have been actually on very friendly terms. Maybe they even had a sort of friendship where they shared planets with each other exchaging knowledge a long time ago. They might have respected each other as equals even if they had opposing views which at some point lead to disagreements and open hostilites when the younger races appeared starting to explore the galaxy. They wanted to know which of the views was 'correct' not realising that it's not about who's correct or wrong and they just forgot it and lost their way.
Okay, so, the two major theories of life in the universe are that there's life everywhere, or that life on Earth is unique. And if the latter is actually true... Aside from natural immortality... What if WE are The First Ones???? Minds blown!
I have Babylon 5 series from S1 to S5, but not the movies yet, but in the store or the shop I bought the 5 seasons of B5 from I still drop by to check if they had got The B5 movies such as The Beginning, The 3rd Space etc in their shop, but not yet. I don't like to watch series, which is downloaded from the net all the time :) Said by Lorien to Sheridan : You are between tick and tack :)
For the most part, yes. They may be advanced beings but they still have emotions. Kosh was afraid to die and the Vorlons and Shadows were afraid of being alone in the cold emptiness between galaxies. They volunteered to become the guardians of the younger races so they wouldn't have to leave their home.
Cap Sheridan in Z'ha'dum, when he met Lorien and thought he was dead and when Sheridan dreamed he asked in the dream to the non coporial life form Who are you? What do want?
The one thing I realized watching this scene again. The Vorlon and Shadows (and all other First Ones) just left. What things did they leave behind without cleaning up after themselves?
The Shadows left technology behind the Drakh would later use. (Deathcloud, operating devices for ships, engineered viruses) In a way, they didn't seem to mind if their technology would cause some more chaos among the younger races. (In the sense of "If it doesn't kill them it will make them stronger") The Vorlons seemed much more careful and left their secrets heavily guarded. So much that it would take about a million years before any race was advanced enough to enter their space and survive. The other remaining First Ones had a lot of time to travel between the stars for all those years, most likely they took everything with them.
@@JH24821 I can see the Shadows leaving some of their tech behind to help the Younger Races grow and evolve faster as it caused Chaos amongst the younger races thanks to the Drakh and to the Shadows, Chaos is good as it helps those involved grow stronger if they survive. As for the Vorlons, they undoubtedly wished to keep a degree of order amongst the Younger Races which is why they made it impossible for them to get at their technology BUT made it so when they were evolved enough, they could access it and add to their knowledge so they'd be ready to go beyond the Rim.
@@girlgarde If I remember correctly the home world of the Vorlons becomes a second Earth for Humanity after the first earth is lost to Sol's destruction. They actually programmed their defenses to deactivate in a million years so that a million years more matured Humanity inherits their tech.
@@nunyabuizness2953 Why DID the sun blow up anyway? It's not scheduled to go nova for 5 billion years at least plus before it goes nova, it's suppose to bloat into a red giant and possibly consume the Earth in the process. Anyhow, you're right that Humanity ends up moving to the Vorlon homeworld after Earth's destruction. I do wonder though which "parent" race the Humans favour, the Vorlons or the Shadows? I see them revering both equally as Humans are generally balanced between order and chaos. Most of us aren't Nazis but most of us aren't rigid and glacial.
@@girlgarde It was implied that an unknown alien race opened slip space portals in the sun which reduced its mass to the point that fusion blew it apart. No it isn't scheduled to go nova at all because it's too small. The red giant phase is actually it shedding its outer layers until eventually all that's left is a slowly cooling white dwarf star. Most of the younger races would probably view the Vorlons in a more positive light. Their ideology is more forgiving. Humanity would probably feel gratitude to the Vorlons for allowing them to inherit their home world and technology after a million years of evolution. They would probably happily greet them among the other first ones when it's their turn to leave beyond the rim.
I was always wondering, what happened with the first one, once the left "Beyond the rim". They obviously did not get dissolved, or did not just disappear like that. As they even stated " you will meet again those, that we have been missing for so long". Or is it just all peace an beauty behind the rim?
A better solution would have been for the Vorlons and Shadows to re-evaluate their ideological differences, cooperate or at least stop manipulating the other races. I can’t see why they should be expected to push off on Sheridan or Lorien’s say so?
I alwasy wondered about Lorien's ship. Was it his, his peoples, some random Old One's vehicle he "borrowed"? He doesn't appear to take it when he leaves but it's never mentioned again.
They never learn. We are not alone. We are like cells in a body. But the Universe is our "body". We are all a part of it. Sun, moon, planets, and even the once thought empty spaces in-between. There is only the illusion of separation/distance. It doesn't actually exist. We are One. One is All. We are All. Don't let a mere matter of our limited perceptions deny you the joy of the Truth.
Two elder god, two siblings at each other's throats, two scared ones. Honestly, they are like youngsters. They want something and lost it. That really scares me.
What do the first ones do beyond the rim? Why are they going there? What is there? Though I know that it was meant to be taken litterally, I always equated the term "Beyond the rim" as more or less synonymous with transcending to another plane of existence entirely. I'd like to think that "beyond the rim" is where species go where they have matured; in a way making the galaxies into these cosmic play-pens, where younger races struggle to understand themselves during their age of growing up; "beyond the rim" is more or less as foreign a concept to us as "go to work" or "the outside world" is to a kid stuck at a fenced-off daycare center.
![Babylon 5 - [4x06] - Into the Fire - Immortality](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0OI4kah6Rp4/mqdefault.jpg)
![Babylon 5 - [4x06] - Into the Fire - Immortality](/img/tr.png)
I love, love, LOVE how small and scared the Shadow sounds.
“Will you…come with us…?”
Me too. It was that thing of an ancient, powerful, eldritch race, suddenly unsure of its dogma or its purpose, is scared and in need of reassurance.
What always gave me chills was the Vorlon asking if they would be alone. Like a frightened child. Like the Shadow sounded. And then you realize neither one was good or bad, wrong or right. They just were different.
@@confusedzentradi And a reminder of how lonely an immortal can become.
Both. Because being fair - the Volons weren't the 'good guys' either. So seeing them both humbled and scared is a nice touch.
@@confusedzentradi The Vorlons weren't right but the Shadows were pretty wrong. And for such an advanced race they had no real understanding of evolution.
I remember watching this scene and was amazed that the Shadow asking like a little child if he was going with them. The Vorlon sounding like a child too. I'm glad I found this scene.
after all, they are lost children of those more ancient than them...
Got the same feeling. Though nearly god-like compared to humans, they, in turn, were children compared to races older than them.
***** not so sure about him snapping necks, older doesnt mean stronger, for example the shadows are much older than the vorlons but it seems that is far easier to kill a shadow than a vorlon.
To them, Lorien was a legend just like to the younger races of B5 both the Vorlons and the Shadows were legends.
Parents and kids...
brav0wing It's like when you're a little kid, and you learn that there's a higher authority than even Mom and Dad. Grandma and Grandpa.
I love how they ended the war with the Shadows. Not by some super-powerful ancient weapon, not by killing one guy (ship) and the rest of the army falls down (I'm looking at you Game of Thrones). No, they finished it with a truce and the end of the cycle. Older races are leaving the galaxy and are giving younger races the chance to grow. It feels satisfying and not cliche.
Dominion war also ended fine
@@insertanynameyouwant5311 only because the Founders were about to go extinct thanks to an engineered bioweapon
@@insertanynameyouwant5311 The fact that these two brilliant long-form shows aired at the same time is just astounding to me, even now, 20+ years later.
I disliked it. The climax of the war had been prepared so carefully over more than 3 seasons and now a "get the hell out of our galaxy"? like a John Wayne western? It deserved better. While I did like the opposite philosophical stances of both the Shadows and Vorlons and the fact that Sheridan refused to choose, but it just felt so hokey, I don't know, seen it a dozen times and every time it feels jarring that a show is so well written ends up with this rather lukewarm lame resolution of the central conflict. I expected better.
Words are powerful just as weapons and ships. And they used to put two powerful entities in their place.
“We will wait for you.” It doesn’t matter how many times I watch this clip. That piece touches my soul. Every. Single. Time.
simultaneously inspiring and frightening to be told "this place is yours now we leave it to the next generation See you when it's time for you to join us"
@@WardNightstone don't forget they all come back to Sheridan.
It's almost like a invitation to make sure your race survives long enough to evolve to beings of energy and join the older races "beyond the rim" for a new journey
This show has opened my eyes to the possibility that there are truly races that were the first ones
A prelude to a sad goodbye in the future for Sheridan when his time runs out and a journey into a new destiny.
The Vorlons and the Shadows. Two immensely powerful and ancient peoples, feared by the younger races, and yet faced with the possibility of being without Lorien, their caretaker and teacher, they seem like children, afraid to go on a journey without their parents, or to be alone.
That was their test and it's a hard lesson to learn.
notice that their humility towards Lorien actually answers their questions. The Vorlon are not "alone" and don't wnat to become "alone", while the shadows answer what they want, they want Lorien to go with them.
Then it would seem that the Vorlons and Shadows despite being quite alien, are more Human then we first believed them to be.
This was dumb lol
I think that part of it is still feeling like Lorien is better and wiser than them, that they are desperate for his approval.
I always thought this was a sad episode.. Despite the Shadows and Vorlons being godlike.. They needed guidance and childlike themselves.... JMS got B5 absolutely spot on.. Best SF series of all time..
So true!
Yep!!
Let's hope he has the same thunder in the reboot.
In the end they answered their own questions:
Who are you? I am alone
What do you want? Not to be alone
Where are you going? A path to loneliness.
indeed XD
Like a drifter, they were born to walk alone.
I never thought of that.
Excellent
"Are you coming with us ?" gets me everytime.. it saddens me
I wonder, did they get the guy who played Morden to also voice that Shadow? It'd make sense in a way, that they'd use his voice.
It was really cool how the Vorlon and the Shadow were talking they sounded like children begging there parents not to leave them because they are afraid to be alone
+Tracey Morgan It seems, they stayed behind not just because they thought they should guide, they were afraid to move on into the unknown. They really did look up to this being and his species.
Why else do you think the Shadows took refuge on Z'ha'dum?They wanted to remain close to Lorien.
The shadows always thought returning to Z'ha'dum was respecting lorien.
Best part of the series. Children afraid to be alone...
Yeah, I kinda thought that was retarded, not cool.
"Will you come with us" I love that sentence spoken by that char
slitor And that was the most genuine question they have ever asked in the entire show, in a voice & tone they have never used. Of the entire scene, that line I remember most clearly... it embodied so much.
+slitor A lost child asking for its fathers forgiveness and love again.
+slitor A child asking their older brother to walk with them in the dark.
+slitor It showed to me, that no matter how old the shadows or vorlons were..to Lorien they were still like children..and they looked to him and spoke to him like a child would..wanting their hand held afraid to go alone without daddy/mommy...very touching
Yep, touching. Strong stuff. :)
best science fiction show ever made. such a shame we won't ever see it's like again.
🌹RIP.🌹 to all the B5 actors & actresses now sadly departed.
0:26 - The almost childlike way the Shadow asked Lorien if he would be going with them is something I never forgot. Even in the midst of their endless war with each other, the Vorlons and Shadows, and likely all of the other First Ones, saw him as their “father”, and held him in the highest regard. How many races did he nurture and guide over the countless millennia? Few shows had such a storyline that remained so strong, and left so many lasting memories, as did B5.
Lorien was wrong about one thing: he believed love was an illusion. What really makes you see this is the way he appears and interacts with the Shadows and Vorlons. He choose to hide and isolate himself because he believed that failed as a teacher and father figure to them. Seeing what his children had become must have been the most painful thing that he had to endure, and lied to himself to ease the pain. But when he met up with and spoke with them again, he spoke to them with great affection and assured them that they would never be alone. In the moment, Lorien showed that for as long of a life as he has had, he was still very much capable of feeling and appreciating love.
He didn't think love was an illusion. He believed that belief in the concept of 'eternal love' was a luxury afforded to those whose lives are fleeting, to mortals.
No, he didn't believe it to be an illusion. But when you get to be as ancient as he is, you see how it can be a fleeting thing, that it will eventually fade and people will drift apart from each other. Remember, he is the very first sapient being in the galaxy. He has been around for a very, very long time.
exactly.
these two aliens were so original in concept and very well done
(Darkness is lifted, all ships return to normal).
Marcus: Did we just win?
Ivanova: Don't jinx it.
I love the fact that Lorien was played by Wayne Alexander who also portrayed The Inquistor who was remembered not as as messenger, remembered not as reformer, not as a prophet, not as a hero, not even as...Sabastian,
remembered only as Jack.
Gotta love B5.
I think he also played a Narn in season 3 episode. The one where Lord Refa is lured into a trap on the Narn home world by Londo.
I still get chills thinking to the far future when the evolved humans in their encounter suits have to say farewell to the galaxy just like this.
They have encounter suits and can turn into beings of energy, yet still haven't found a cure for baldness.
@@Intranetusa The evolved Human may simply choose to be bald in his Human form because he wants to be that way.
And when they, the evolved Minbari and other evolved races go to meet Lorien, the Vorlons and the Shadows, each of them express happiness that the "Younger" races have reached their level and joined them on a higher plane of existence.
@@girlgarde IIRC, why did he choose to be mostly bald with some hair and a mustache? Why not completely bald and totally hairless? IIRC, he has an awkward combination where he wants to retain some parts of his head hair and facial hair, but then is bald with large patches of hair missing...resembling a guy experiencing baldness but doesn't want to go totally bald because he wants to hang on to his hair.
@@Intranetusa Maybe they just grow up and stop caring about such a trivial and not important detail :) And c'mon he was just energy - maybe he just liked this looks somewhere from his favourite old, old, very old movie?
What i always loved about this show are the non-humanoid aliens. Even when the CGI was limited, they didn't shy away from showing strange, non-humanoid creatures in main roles, something I never quite liked about Star Trek. Heck, i still think the designs for the Vorlon and the Shadows are great.
We think so highly of ourselves and our "phenotype." Life appears in many forms, and humanoid is only one such type.
yes..tought the shadows were quite an exception as they showed very little due to obvious filming reasons.. the rest of the races were "humanoid" .. they played with masks and limbs but save for some insectoid ones they were vastly "humanoid"
Check the aliens of the "Ascendancy" PC game. They showed just 1-1 picture and a few paragraph of backstory, but I loved those aliens.
@@Platschu LOL! I was just about to say that, like the Orfa, Swapmarans, Shivans and the Kambutckas ( they look like a fucked up club sandwich ) 😄 Star Control 2 was good for that also.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the 'Gods' have left the Galaxy.
i think this scene is best described by sheridan's argument the both shadows and vorlons behaved like a divorced couple putting their kids to fight and decide who they love more. is about grow and letting go. is nature's law.
They were more like children of divorced parents repeating the same mistakes.
"The time of the Elves is over."
@Leo Polled Hadn't thought of that. Good point. Come to think of it, Delenn was pretty much Galadrial. Her bone piece even stood in for Galadrial's tiara. Only difference is she stays.
@@jamesmartin9401 There are lots of correlations between Babylon 5 and LOTR. In some ways Kosh is like Gandalf - a secret representative of higher powers manipulating events to create an army of light.
Also reads as "Overused resolution trope" but still better much better than anything Star Trek had dragged to the table in the last 50 years.
@@DeltaPi314 Oh, geez, another B5 fanboy Star Trek hater. Funny thing is, most Star Trek fans like Babylon 5. Y'all are just parroting JMS getting his feelings hurt by Paramount/CBS.
Those two suddenly sound so innocent and lost. They were more afraid to venture forth instead of the reasons they gave, and much more in need of guidance than the younger races.
+V Guyver They almost sound childlike in this scene.
Yeah, it always cracked me up how much like children they sounded at this point.
Yep, strong stuff to see the angels and demons more like humans. Or like something they all share.
Lorien is a First Born. His kind are the parents, the Guardians of Order and Chaos, to the Vorlons and the Shadows; that's why they sound so child-like. Lorien is the only parent that stayed with them when the rest of the First Born left. Now they need him one final time: to guide them into the unknown.
One of the best ending ever. "This is all yours now" it's like the gods handing down the torch to us.
+Nigel Baldes agreed and Lorien being the very first one..would be like a god to everyone even the other first ones..because he was...THE first one..wow..what a title
I thought is was more like: The playground is now yours. We have outgrown it. We will see you again, when you do the same.
@@jtsavidge more like the other way around, the kids have outgrown the need for a babysitter and must learn to live on their own
The gods aren't perfect either, they only sought to teach us what they have learned. Sometimes a child can outgrow and you will learn from the child.
A very Space Odyssey line. It would have been interesting to have follow up episodes explore the world's of the first ones who left.
oh man! the voice of the Shadow is shockingly sweet!
Loved this show. Miss great shows like this.
this make b5 stand out of the other sifi stuff
dragdragon23 yeah the villain useally dies but here you found out they are childern that don't want to be alone
I found it so ironic that the whole arc(s), involving the Vorlons and Shadows could be boiled down to one simple thing. They were afraid of being lonely or forgotten, Kind of a childish thing, for such ancient beings to fear
Ask your grandparents how they feel when you forget to call them. Ask your parents the same.
No one likes to be alone. Even people who live alone need contact with others, however temporary.
Everyone would be a child standing next to Lorien.
And the shadows/vorlons disagreed on how to parent their kids.
hell is separation from god. to b completely alone in a dark place of nothingless. ask any pow what the worse torture is to b left alone
@@NateSean You exactly hit the point of this scene :)
"Did we just win?" "Don't jinx it."
This one of the best scenes in the entire history of cinema.
I myself am like the shaodws and vorlons, I never would want to leave my parents.
"Get the hell out of our galaxy!"
"ZOG!"
zog yes? zog no?
All that time, all that understanding and the first ones still sound like children, scared of the dark. Scared to go out into it.
Can't blame them too much. If there's a darkness to be scared of, it's what's between the galaxies.
How Lord of the Rings. As the Elves sail off into the west with Gandalf . . .
This scene is actually sad after everything that the Shadows and Vorlons went trough ,all the fighting , what mess they did in the galaxy, they finally understand that maybe they made a mistake and starting to realize what they did, the way they asked Lorean if he will come w/them is moving, they don't want to be alone..
another thing I loved that Sheridan joined them he deserve to be there as he and later Delenn helped them to understand what mess they did he should be there w/them.. I wonder if Sinclair was there too and if Delenn joined them?
I wonder the same about Jason Ironhead.
I would say yes, their where others that have journeyed beyond the rim before them, I think he was one of them.
I read somewhere that people think so that he is there. I think JMS tried to do something w/his story and Talia but dropped it in season 2 when the actress wanted to leave
You know what I just now realize. Besides the shadows, and the Vorlons. The other races that stayed behind home planets still might have their technology left behind.
I like how these powerful races sounded like children asking the parent not to leave them and being scared to be alone.
All of the power those races had, and at the end it boiled down to the simplest of feelings
The desire to not be alone in the dark.
But they had one another. And when they reached the other First Ones, they would have them. So, I do not understand the "being alone " part.
this has to be one of the best shows of its genre
"Did we just win?" lol. Man I loved Marcus :)
Lorien was always friendly with the shadows. They were the first race he encountered when exploring the galaxy
Miss this great show
The reason he said what he said about younger races is eventually each of the older races transformed into energy and so when we get older in the galaxy we will pass beyond the rim and give the younger races the same opportunity we had.
Even the shadows were in suits like the vorlon because they were energy creatures just like the rest.
Lorian makes me think of a benign version of Cthulhu; a being of unimaginable age, power and knowledge who seeks to protect and to guide.
Time always sounds the same no matter how beautiful and heartbreaking.
To a higher bring, the Vorlons and Shadows are like these two an angry pet birds in a cage, alone in their own way, but happy to be with their mentor on a trip beyond the rim.
Road Trip To Beyond The Rim: Vorlons and Shadows "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" while pranking each other before Lorien disciplines them.
Yeah and while they were praking, Lorien getting annoyed with their raucous: "Stop this! Order!" To which the Vorlon exclaims "See, he agrees with us!!!" and Lorien raising his eyes, sighing, speaking quitely "Will they ever learn? Time to put their toys away"
It’s funny, moments ago they were ruthless and bent on the execution of billions to continue their war
And then when that old man told them to leave, they asked if he could come with them to the next Galaxy.
Like two children afraid of traveling a great distance without a parent.
Odd how prospective changes so quickly for those two
There's life out there. And it's as lonely as we are.
Always wondered what is beyond the rim.
I like to think everyone who passes beyond the rim is defending the galaxy for the younger races from possible outsiders who would do them harm
Lorian is a grandparent telling the parents of the grandchildren that he very much admires what they are growing into to step aside and let them grow and be themselves
i always wondered what the first ones are doing beyond the galaxy.
You are never alone.
Sounds like great parenting advice. Teach the younger ones and when your time comes step aside and allow them to grow into their own destiny.
BEAUTIFUL!
as much as i would love to have seen babylon 5 continue in more shows or other forms, i'm glad they have kept it contained to the show (and the few novelized continuations). its a fantastic story that isnt bogged down or otherwise sullied by mediocrity or modern "political correctness"
If they remade B5 now it will be a complete shit show.
@@DeltaPi314 *_exactly._*
In the end, B5 is a reflection of our history, which is why it's lessons are so universal and not bogged down by the political culture of 'current year'. It represents a long view of history and the recognition of the mistakes and triumphs that happen over and over. And it does so with the humility of just telling the story instead of shoving it down your throat or judging you. It respects the viewers' intelligence to figure it out.
I will never understand anyone who says babylon 5 isn't political. It's like calling the original Star Trek right wing. The hell it is. Were we watching the same show??
Mostly I think people weren't as jaded when they first watched it. Any modern audience watching it now would kneejerk their way to orbit from the
* strong female characters
* anti-religion themes
* multiculturalism themes
* anti-fascim themes
* bodily autonomy themes
* anti-war themes
etc
@@tsm688 "anti-religion themes"
>remembers the episode where every alien race shows off their religion, ending the episode with Sheridan _personally introducing_ the aliens to a representative of _every single human religion._
besides, I never said the show was not "political," but it was not brazen in its messaging nor was it pushing for irrational and backwards-thinking points like so much of the, and I reiterate the point I made in my first comment; "political correctness" *_(AKA SJW's and people of that sort who are skewing legitimate talking points into brazen madness)_*
AKA the B5 had good points to make and it made them in an aesthetically pleasing manner. It was not woke-ass propaganda like, lets say, Indiana Jones and the 'death of Disney' which is straight-up propaganda and a destruction of one of the most revered franchises of cinema.
I like how both the Vorlons and the Shadows are like scared children here. They are afraod of "being alone."
Every Sunday morning this was on Norwegian tv(or maybe Saturday) and as a kid I was a devoted follower.. Norway has never made sci fi.. we are way to down to earth (puke)
I had to set my alarm clock so that I could record it at 3 in the morning as a kid, because it aired at this ungodly time here in germany and our VCR couldn't be programmed.
This is so sad to me. But they are going home!
The ancient godlike beings are just as much afraid of loneliness as we are.
It is the nature of all consciousness to connect with another, to be part of a community.
Don't jinx it.
Absolutely loved this show!!! Back in the Philippines this'd be my Wednesday night event, with Star Trek: TNG on Fridays and SeaQuest DSV on Thursdays... Never liked all the latinovela and the local melodrama crap that they turn up on a regular basis (even worse nowadays when the stupid fucks started ripping off koreanovela shticks!!!) makes me think of reconsuming vomit a thousand times over!!!
+Pearl Blake lol, you are like a long lost cousin. My older family members was always watching the spanish novelas and portuguese novelas, while I was cringing and hoping for B5 or TNG/DS9. I'll admit though, I find some of the Korean Novelas a little more tolerable because they can be funny.
Wow that volume...
As I've grown older. And I stopped doing things such as watching wrestling and preordering games. Lorien's speech gives me comfort. My time doing these things are over, my twight has risen. It's time for the new fans to come into their own.
One of the greatest moments in Babylon 5.
The saddest moment in the best scifi show ever. The first ones added so much to this universe, after the left the show somehow seems empty.
nothing **good** got left behind... just the drakh. kind of dumb.
After the magic dissapeared there was a nice little idea in the Crusade series that unfortunatly didn't have the budget staff or writing to succed. Where "The hand" from that other dimension was even more powerful and mysterious than the shadows supposedly.
The eons gone, the races prospered or destroyed, the ancients at the end of their time asked the one question that matters
"Where is my mom?"
Ok, let me put a Grimdark spin on this.
Ten million years in the future the humans and minbaris evolve together and transcend into beings of pure energy without need of physical vessels.
They have done their jobs as mentors of the galaxy and are about to transcend. They reach over the rim, just to find one individual of unknown species waiting there for them.
"Where are the others? Where are the Vorlons? Where are the Shadows? Where is Lorien?" The Humans and Minbari ask.
"I am all that is left" comes the answer.
RIP Vorlon Empire
All these worlds now, are yours...Except Europa.
beautiful
I Love it this Show my friends. That Great Classic. Thanks.
0:26 Damn, that shadow has a sexy voice...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Someday I will meet my maker. I will ask the same thing. I cry so much when I see this scene.
I always wondered if when he mentioned the ones who went ahead of them and who they missed, was he refering to others of their respective races or other First Ones races
Personally I think he meant all the other First Ones races. The Vorlons and Shadows stayed behind while the other races left, and I think that generally they had very good relations with each other, or at least a level of respect and understanding. The Vorlons and Shadows were enemies, but even they were never out to destroy each other.
I always liked to think the Vorlons and Shadows have been actually on very friendly terms. Maybe they even had a sort of friendship where they shared planets with each other exchaging knowledge a long time ago. They might have respected each other as equals even if they had opposing views which at some point lead to disagreements and open hostilites when the younger races appeared starting to explore the galaxy. They wanted to know which of the views was 'correct' not realising that it's not about who's correct or wrong and they just forgot it and lost their way.
This whole series is basically the transition from type 2 to type 3 or even 4 kardashev
Okay, so, the two major theories of life in the universe are that there's life everywhere, or that life on Earth is unique.
And if the latter is actually true...
Aside from natural immortality...
What if WE are The First Ones????
Minds blown!
Both major theories are equally terrifying ..
But we are definitely not the first ones
Never got used to the shadows talking.
Classic series shame they never digitally remastered and added more space battles to it!
I have Babylon 5 series from S1 to S5, but not the movies yet, but in the store or the shop I bought the 5 seasons of B5 from I still drop by to check if they had got The B5 movies such as The Beginning, The 3rd Space etc in their shop, but not yet. I don't like to watch series, which is downloaded from the net all the time :) Said by Lorien to Sheridan : You are between tick and tack :)
3rd space is good, in the beginning didnt see, but the rest is just trash.
till all are one Seems like the proper blessing here even if it's from a different series
volume is too low
All that bloodshed caused by powerful Vorlorns and Shadows who were too afraid to venture beyond the rim without a chaperone?
For the most part, yes. They may be advanced beings but they still have emotions. Kosh was afraid to die and the Vorlons and Shadows were afraid of being alone in the cold emptiness between galaxies. They volunteered to become the guardians of the younger races so they wouldn't have to leave their home.
Cap Sheridan in Z'ha'dum, when he met Lorien and thought he was dead and when Sheridan dreamed he asked in the dream to the non coporial life form Who are you? What do want?
The one thing I realized watching this scene again. The Vorlon and Shadows (and all other First Ones) just left. What things did they leave behind without cleaning up after themselves?
The Shadows left technology behind the Drakh would later use. (Deathcloud, operating devices for ships, engineered viruses) In a way, they didn't seem to mind if their technology would cause some more chaos among the younger races. (In the sense of "If it doesn't kill them it will make them stronger") The Vorlons seemed much more careful and left their secrets heavily guarded. So much that it would take about a million years before any race was advanced enough to enter their space and survive. The other remaining First Ones had a lot of time to travel between the stars for all those years, most likely they took everything with them.
@@JH24821 I can see the Shadows leaving some of their tech behind to help the Younger Races grow and evolve faster as it caused Chaos amongst the younger races thanks to the Drakh and to the Shadows, Chaos is good as it helps those involved grow stronger if they survive.
As for the Vorlons, they undoubtedly wished to keep a degree of order amongst the Younger Races which is why they made it impossible for them to get at their technology BUT made it so when they were evolved enough, they could access it and add to their knowledge so they'd be ready to go beyond the Rim.
@@girlgarde If I remember correctly the home world of the Vorlons becomes a second Earth for Humanity after the first earth is lost to Sol's destruction. They actually programmed their defenses to deactivate in a million years so that a million years more matured Humanity inherits their tech.
@@nunyabuizness2953 Why DID the sun blow up anyway? It's not scheduled to go nova for 5 billion years at least plus before it goes nova, it's suppose to bloat into a red giant and possibly consume the Earth in the process.
Anyhow, you're right that Humanity ends up moving to the Vorlon homeworld after Earth's destruction. I do wonder though which "parent" race the Humans favour, the Vorlons or the Shadows? I see them revering both equally as Humans are generally balanced between order and chaos. Most of us aren't Nazis but most of us aren't rigid and glacial.
@@girlgarde It was implied that an unknown alien race opened slip space portals in the sun which reduced its mass to the point that fusion blew it apart.
No it isn't scheduled to go nova at all because it's too small. The red giant phase is actually it shedding its outer layers until eventually all that's left is a slowly cooling white dwarf star.
Most of the younger races would probably view the Vorlons in a more positive light. Their ideology is more forgiving.
Humanity would probably feel gratitude to the Vorlons for allowing them to inherit their home world and technology after a million years of evolution. They would probably happily greet them among the other first ones when it's their turn to leave beyond the rim.
They forgot Frodo
Wait for us Mira.
Loriens energy form is so big. Not sure, but this could be the only time we get a view of that. (You can compare it to the white stars)
The next time is the series finale. When Sheridan goes off to die (in a White Star), he meets Lorien again.
@@adaeptzulander2928 True, now you mention it. That one is a bit harder to judge the size if I recall correct though.
2:00 I fear you may have a very long wait.
Everyone afraid to say - Vorlon's would win. Biggest fleet.
So deep a show.
I was always wondering, what happened with the first one, once the left "Beyond the rim". They obviously did not get dissolved, or did not just disappear like that. As they even stated " you will meet again those, that we have been missing for so long". Or is it just all peace an beauty behind the rim?
A better solution would have been for the Vorlons and Shadows to re-evaluate their ideological differences, cooperate or at least stop manipulating the other races. I can’t see why they should be expected to push off on Sheridan or Lorien’s say so?
1:06 -- JON SNOW !
I alwasy wondered about Lorien's ship. Was it his, his peoples, some random Old One's vehicle he "borrowed"? He doesn't appear to take it when he leaves but it's never mentioned again.
in the end the vorlons and shadows ended up being two children lol
They never learn. We are not alone. We are like cells in a body. But the Universe is our "body". We are all a part of it. Sun, moon, planets, and even the once thought empty spaces in-between. There is only the illusion of separation/distance. It doesn't actually exist. We are One. One is All. We are All. Don't let a mere matter of our limited perceptions deny you the joy of the Truth.
Two elder god, two siblings at each other's throats, two scared ones.
Honestly, they are like youngsters.
They want something and lost it.
That really scares me.
What do the first ones do beyond the rim? Why are they going there? What is there? Though I know that it was meant to be taken litterally, I always equated the term "Beyond the rim" as more or less synonymous with transcending to another plane of existence entirely. I'd like to think that "beyond the rim" is where species go where they have matured; in a way making the galaxies into these cosmic play-pens, where younger races struggle to understand themselves during their age of growing up; "beyond the rim" is more or less as foreign a concept to us as "go to work" or "the outside world" is to a kid stuck at a fenced-off daycare center.
Marcus "Did we just win?"
Ivanova "Don't jinx it!"
We operate between chaos and order. Too much to either side, and it is unpleasant.
Gonna meet the violence with defiance and Alliance
'cause the giants left the playground with a lot of blood and sorrow