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My 2 years comparing audio equipment: Audiofool placebo, marginal gains, law of diminishing returns
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2024
- My frame of reference. Equipment that I have tried/owned.
IEMs:
Thieaudio Prestige Ltd £1149
Campfire Audio Dorado £1099
Elise Audio X Helios Symphonium SE £1099
Thieaudio Monarch Mk III £899
Thieaudio Monarch Mk II £800
Sennheiser IE600 £600
Thieaudio Hype 4 £350
Fiio FD5 £295
Ziigaat Cincotres £255
Ziigaat Doscinco £255
Penon Serial £247
Fiio FH3 £99-120
Fiio JD7 £89
KZ ZS10 Pro £45
DAPs:
Hiby R6 £1400
Sony NW-WM1AM2 (Uncapped) £1300
Fiio M23 £649
Hiby R6 Pro 2 £600
Hiby R5 Gen 2 £450
Sony A306 £329
Sony A55 £200
Hiby M300 £200
LG-V60 £200
Hiby R3 Gen 2 £179
In my experience, with the specific equipment listed (IEMs/DAPs), I have not heard the difference or scale of difference in certain equipment as often claimed by "audiophiles". I have never seen any "audiophile" making claims to have any objective evidence. Something like a proper blind A/B test demonstrating they can consistently tell differences between X/Y/Z equipment.
I have encountered what I call the price of entry barrier fallacy. This is when an "audiophile" claims that the reason I cannot hear "significant difference" between equipment is because certain equipment has to cost X amount to be capable of revealing a difference. For DAPs I was told that I won't hear differences between specific £200-600 devices and need to compare to a £4000 Cayin DAP. Most recently I was told that "tranducers" need to cost over £800 (Thieaudio Monarch Mk III & Prestige Ltd) to hear "significant difference" between the LG-V60 and Fiio M23. I have no idea if the Monarch Mk III, Prestige Ltd, Hype 4 use the same or different transducers.
In a single listening/testing session I have tried the Thieaudio Prestige Ltd, Monarch Mk III on the Sony A55, Hiby R5 Gen 2 & Hiby R6 and heard no "significant difference" between those DAPs. I don't think I could tell the difference in a blind A/B either. The £1400 Hiby R6 perhaps sounded fractionally cleaner, maybe 1 or 2% but that is likely just placebo. The 3 DAPs probably did not sound 100% identical but the difference between them was barely perceptible/marginal. Perhaps 1 or 2%.
With the Hiby R5 Gen 2 I heard multiple "audiophile" reviews claim that the "Class A" Amp mode significantly/audibly improved/changed the sound. When I tried it I heard no difference at all, let alone improvement. The only caveat to add is that obviously my testing was done on my specific IEMs at that time which would have been somewhat different to those of the "audiophiles".
The largest difference/jump in quality that I have experienced in the past 2/3 years was when I heard the KZ ZS10 Pro after using the AKG EO-IG955 & Samsung EO-EG920BW with my Samsung Note 9. The KZ ZS10 Pros were significantly better. What I would call a "night and day" difference.
Price barrier of entry fallacy: • Thou shalt not blasphe...
My frame of reference. Equipment that I have tried/owned.
IEMs:
Thieaudio Prestige Ltd £1149
Campfire Audio Dorado £1099
Elise Audio X Helios Symphonium SE £1099
Thieaudio Monarch Mk III £899
Thieaudio Monarch Mk II £800
Sennheiser IE600 £600
Thieaudio Hype 4 £350
Fiio FD5 £295
Ziigaat Cincotres £255
Ziigaat Doscinco £255
Penon Serial £247
Fiio FH3 £99-120
Fiio JD7 £89
KZ ZS10 Pro £45
DAPs:
Hiby R6 £1400
Sony NW-WM1AM2 (Uncapped) £1300
Fiio M23 £649
Hiby R6 Pro 2 £600
Hiby R5 Gen 2 £450
Sony A306 £329
Sony A55 £200
Hiby M300 £200
LG-V60 £200
Hiby R3 Gen 2 £179
If I had very long arms(I'm in Australia), I'd shake your hand for this video. This subject is very rarely explored thoroughly. Well done.
Great video. Most channels don't do this because they're clearly shilling and their channels would flat out die. No theme reviews does a great job showing A/B comparisons with volume matching.
The only time i heard any difference is with higher impedance headphones connected to a proper amp, probably because they got the power it needed. Iems on the other hand are very sensitive, most of these "gains" in sound probably are just slight changes in the FR rather than any tangible improvement in sound. So yeah i agree, i feel most of the people who promote these improvements are too deep in the rabbit hole and justifying their purchases by becoming a part of an exclusive club.
One Word:
Diversification.
In this hobby, people like to enclose themselves on 1 specific form factor and kept on buying up for marginal to miniscule upgrade.
I bought a Swan OS10 2 years ago and it shook me, it sound as good, as 3 of my kilobuck headphones.
After that I stopped buying any iems or headphones for 1+ years.
If you're actually an audiophile, try different gears, don't lock yourself up on iem/headphones/ speakers form factors.
I spent some cash and upgrading the Swan to KEF LXS+ Polk 10"Sub. sold some cans and IEMs to pay for it. Also bought some portable speakers, heck even neck speakers 😂.
In the end, having different medium actually give me way more enjoyment, way different experience for each listening, wherever and whenever I am. Now I care more for gears that enable more use case like Bluetooth and TWS Dongle than chasing DAP or Dac/Amps.
Good video and well done for standing up to audiophoo nonsense, you deserve a like and follow from a fellow brit.
As a user of Symphonium Meteor (from Elise audio) and a Hiby R6 iii there is zero recognisable difference between Class A and Class AB, except for battery life but it could be useful hand warmer in Class A use during winter
Thanks for the video! What would be your comparison between the Prestige LTD and Monarch MKIII in terms of sound?
With regards to Iem's ,my most expensive are 7hz timeless and Letshuoer s12. I dont think i need to buy anymore, and im happy about that .I have lots of very budget Iem's, and they also sound great.Not as good as the 7hz, but perfectly good enough and i could happily live with them to.Paying over a grand for in ears is fooking mental .
After expending several thousands of euros, I can admit that I can't hear anything going beyond the MP145 with an Apple Dongle.
For ~120€ you can experience the best audio I'm able to hear.
Excellent video. Love your take. Regarding the Doscinco, after all this time with it, where do you place it? How does it compare with your other IEMs? In general, and, of course, bass. Thanks.
The Doscinco is my favourite. It has the best and most bass. Very enjoyable to listen to for me.
@@PerputuallyCensored Greeat to hear that. I spent a lot of time researching and ended buying the Doscinco few months ago, one of your videos helped a lot. But I don't have a lot of experience with other IEMs, so thanks for your insight.
@@torjones-7 Hope you like it.
@PerputuallyCensored i have fatfreq grand maestro and other multikilobuck iems. I enjoy and im impressed with doscinco just as much as any iem. Only $250. My fatfreq died on me after only a month and it costs 10 times as much.
Why do you prefer iems to over ear headphones? I have both but I can hear more difference between sources with over ears than iems
Prefer the sound of IEMs. Better bass, more intimate, more detail. More practical also to wear with hats/under a hat. I don't like Headphones really but each to his own.
I agree that differences between sources can probably be heard more easily with overears than IEMs.
@@PerputuallyCensored you are right about diminishing returns on higher price equipment. I have spent a lot trying to get the best sound possible, but now I enjoy my music on 150 quid dt 900 pro x and fiio m23. I don't think that the M23 is better sounding than comparable daps but I do like how the music comes across from a really black background. But I'm definitely done with spending a lot and expecting price to match performance. Your videos have helped me come to this realization, so thank you luke, saved me money
@@matthewsaul2531 That's great. Glad you got something from it. It can be a bit of ghost chasing in audio for sure. Enjoy.
@@PerputuallyCensored Headphones are a boon in winter because they also keep your ears warm. IEM's in summer because they don't make your ears sweat.
I've always been a source sceptic, unless dealing with non-zero output impedance. Luckily $10 CX dongle solves the issue. IEMs possibly reach diminishing returns around $80. I wonder what you would think of Truthear Hexa compared to your higher end IEMs.
Very similar experiences over the last 35+ years of buying audio gear.
I've not heard it, but the HiBy R4 at around £250 is supposed to be a game changer. Apparently.
I've reached what I consider to be to be my personal summit fi DAP in the RS8, and it sounds amazing with the Moondrop Variations but they're the only IEM's I've tried so far.
IMHO; the music ALWAYS comes first!
I have one on the way, paid £190 😮
Just that you usually have to spend around twice for what you get.
Is the limit of 20k songs still there? My HiBy gets no use because of that idiotic limitation.
@@leonardofernandez6488 the limit applies to files that are not in folders, if you organize them into folders then there should be no limit
The R4 seems to be very popular but I'll not be purchasing one.
what iem do you recommend to someone who is senstive to sibilance and wants stong but tight bass
Doscinco is the best I have for both.
Great video Luke and I agree 100% with the price points that you have mentioned. I have been in the Audio game for a long time and have come to the realisation that my opinion on this subject is highly controversial and many of your viewers would not like to hear it 🙏
Great video thanks. I was wondering if it’s better to use wired buds with phone jack or usb c with the hiby m300? Maybe this is not a good question as most wired earbuds have a jack.
Use whatever you see fit. I have never used wired USB C termination for IEMs so I can't comment. I only use the 3.5mm termination.
Great review.
Do you know how the shangling m5 ultra compare to those? Specially the fiio m23 and hiby r2pro?
Afraid I haven't used the Shanling.
How big is the difference in sound playback between your Hype 4s and your FIIO FH3s with whatever source you choose? Is it worth the price difference? You have owned a couple of IEMs that would be endgame for me, I just wonder if they are that much better than a good 300-dollar set?
The Hype 4 is better in terms of the bass, separation and layering. If you like a bit more sparkle to your treble it also has that. It is “endgame” enough for me. Excellent value. It doesn’t blow the FH3 away though and I find the FH3 overall smoother to deal with not so good recordings and sibilance a bit better.
Just noticed your last question...
There is very little difference between the top end stuff (Monarch II, Prestige Ltd) and something like the Fiio FH3. The FH3 for me is pretty close to the best IEM I have heard, Monarch Mk II. The difference is at most 5%. You are paying hundreds for fractional gains in audio.
Curious to hear what you think about the new Ziigaat Arete. Would you say the Doscinco and Cincotres are different enough to warrant this new cousin? Are you going to review it?
Hadn't even heard of it until I read your comment. I'll not be reviewing it no. More than happy with the 2 Ziigaats I have.
Nice video but I would like to hear more about the issue you are talking about also for the iems.You didn t say a lot there..How different- or not do they sound?
What part specifically? I'm not sure which bit you're referring to. I did say that the percentage between the FH3 and the Prestige Ltd was at most 5%.
What about dongle dac (say the Fiio KA17) vs a larger dac amp (like the Fiio Q15). Will there be a noticeable difference when using IEM?
I haven't used any of that equipment I'm afraid.
Yes.
No. Iems don't require much power, so no need for much amplification, and most modern DACs are quite transparent, so you aren't likely to hear any difference. Moreover, the dongle you have mentioned is extremely powerful, so it should even drive most headphones well.
My opinion - industry in general, starting with manufacturers/sellers and ending with reviewers (many of which are more properly called advertisers), simply abuses all this "audiophile" stuff. They intentionally cultivate this "beliefs" and everything. To a point where "audiophile" almost sounds derogative to me. Almost in a way flatearther does as an example.
Even though i've been interested in audio gear for decades at this point - each time i want to buy something new it is a huge pain to navigate all this garbage. It is incredibly hard to choose something reasonable, not cheap junk, but without paying too much "audiophile tax" either. Especially living in a place where going to a store and trying a bunch of stuff is not possible. It is quite sad.
So... thanks for having a reasonable point of view and doing reasonable, practical comparisons. Even though they are still subjective and still without any blind tests, but i do understand the difficulties of setting that up. Especially without access to free "review samples".
Also - from all the players, apart from old/discontinued ones and old phones (dealing with old stuff has its challenges, for example buying refurbished old phones is basically a lottery), hiby m300 does seem like a very interesting option. Small, light, good batery life, modern android...
Other than the system wide up sampling the Hiby 300 is excellent.
Bought Beoplay EX bluetooth earbuds and it sounds at worse equal to my Sennheiser IE 900, for a fraction of a price... Bang and Olufsen knows what they are doing.
So if your conclusion is that the sweet spot for diminishing return in iem is 100 pounds, then at this price oint do you prefer fh3 over jd7 ( at the same price point is it better to put all the money on a single driver of higher quality, or do we get better sound with the money spread on 3 drivers of lesser quality but that may perform better in their own frequency range) ? thank you
The FH3 deals well with everything in my library so it is the better all rounder of the two but the JD7 isn't far off. It just deals a bit less well with sibilant recordings. Only you can determine value and what you consider to be diminishing returns. However, the best IEM I have heard (Monarch Mk2 £800) isn't much better than the FH3 to my ears. Marginally better. Roughly 5%.
@@PerputuallyCensored so if there is only 5% improvement from jd7 to MMk2 so there is only 2% improvement between jd7 and doscinco ?
@@amanieux I've not put a number on every difference between every IEM. That 5% was specific to the FH3 & Monarch Mk2, not the JD7. I would say try things over asking other people questions. The only way you'll know is through direct experience. You may agree or disagree with my perceptions/opinions so those are only useful to a point. I also wouldn't get fixated on degrees of improvement. All my IEMs sound good and I enjoy music on them. That is the most relevant and important thing. I enjoy the Doscincos the most of everything I have at present. That doesn't mean they are "better" necessarily. Ultimately it is down to preference as each set varies slightly.
I know it is better to judge by our own ears rather than reading other subjective opinion but in france there are no hifi place we can hear iems, only speakers.
@@amanieux Unfortunately it is the same for me in the UK, for the most part. I have to "blind buy" and see if I like it. With things i didn't love I sold them via EBay, such as the Penon Serial.
Would you say hype 4 is worth the price difference vs. cincotres?
Only you can determine that. I would say that, in this hobby, the Hype 4 are good value. The Cincotres is very good but the Hype 4 is a bit different and has somewhat sharpened layering, separation compared to the Cincotres.
audiophiles is horoscope for males
I like that sass 😂
I was the commenter from your last video. I was stating that if you cannot tell the difference between the WM1AM2 versus the LG v60, then the limitation was your transducers. It's very easy to decipher that the LG is using a off the shelf DAC chip and the Sony is not. Sony uses their own proprietary S-Master digital amplification with large high quality capacitors. It is definitely much more difficult to decipher one off the shelf DAC chip versus another one, but you should be able to decipher between the different technologies - DS, R2R, Chord dacs, Sony S-master. The transducers I recommended were MEST Mark II, Monarch Mark II, Shure KSE 1200/1500 electrostatic earphones. If you get a chance to try the electrostatics out, you will definitely hear a difference. They are incredibly resolving.
Regarding the law of the diminishing returns, this is an expensive hobby, not an investment.
Unfortunately the Monarch Mk II were too big for me. They are the best IEM I have heard. In my video comparing the Sony and LG I did say that on certain tracks I did hear a difference, albeit not a massive one. The Sony had the wider soundstage. However, on other tracks that difference was not there. It isn’t uniform and what you listen to is a variable in my experience.
I'm glad you're able to decipher some difference. Some people can (varying degrees ie golden ears vs bronze ears) and some people cannot depending on how good your hearing is. The reviewer that you reference in your video, "Super reviews" admits that he can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless music and in my opinion is doing a big disservice to the community.
Another thing, you will find that the higher end earphones will pair better with some DAPs over others, whereas the lower end not so much. The more resolving the transducer, the pickier it is with sources.
I doubt most people can. Pretty much every person if the "lossy" file is is above 300kbps and a good recording. I wouldn't call his honesty "a big disservice to the community" but to each their own. I have personally upsampled MP3s to 96kHz 24bit using software and any system will read it as such, even though technically it is identical to a lossy MP3 track. If I were to do a non blind test with many an audiophile I'm willing to bet they would claim to hear differences in the higher resolution track, even though it is identical to the MP3 in resolution.
for IEMs anything above $300 is a waste of Money now a days where even $100 iems can offer the same or even better tuning and overall sound then iem that cost thousands of dollars
This price fallacy... you have to spend say 1k. But what if the in=ears are cheaper on black friday? Now the same are not so good anymore? What a ...