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The SOONG-Type Androids
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2019
- Let's look at the background history and purpose of the Soong-Type Androids, such as Lt.Cmdr Data and Lore as well as the prototype, B4 as well as the project's creator, Noonian Soong.
So you could say this video looks at the DataLORE!
Gettit?
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Star Trek, Star Trek Enterprise/Voyager/Deep Space Nine/Discovery/Picard and The Next Generation are all owned and distributed by CBS.
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This Video is for critical purposes with commentary.
“The Measure of a Man”, where Data was given rights, was 2365, not 67, as it was Season 2.
I’ve always wondered how Juliana could go all that time without finding out she was an Android. I mean, she never in all those years had a medical check up or anything involving a tricorder scan? Never went through a transporter that would have recorded deconstructing an inorganic form rather than a human? Never fell hard enough to break a bone, but didn’t and wondered why? And I can only wonder what happens after she eats and drinks...
All known Soong type androids can consume food and drinks
source: czcams.com/video/ok5l26Fs0LI/video.html
and like Cerifiably Ingame stated she emitted a false bio reading to fool sensors so unless doctors still need to draw blood or used X-rays in the 25th century it quite possible no one who examine her would know she wasn't flesh and blood which afterall was the point.
*Never fell hard enough to break a bone, but didn’t and wondered why?*
Actually in the episode, she shuts off after she finds out the truth by falling, well actually leaping, Data already figure out and she needed to jump from a great height...so it actually possible this might have happen sometime before she met her second husband
"I designed her to shut down in the event the truth was discovered. When you put that chip back in, she will wake up and remember nothing. All you have to do is make up some excuse about what happened to her." ~Soong Hologram, TNG Inheritance
Juliana's body actually gave off false life signs that were able to fool medical scanners. Dr. Crusher actually commented on the fact that her medical scans of her showed a human woman without any signs that she was an android. So she is/was the most advanced Soong type android in existence. They should have followed up with Data's relationship with her.
@thunderbird002 I don't know if the transporter is able to determine if something is organic or inorganic. Data used the transporter all the time, and it didn't seem to have any issues with him.
@@henrynorcrossii3363 It's not about the transporter noticing it and worrying, but the transporter-operator!
Data is a KNOWN android, hence no one cares that the transporter would notice beaming anorganic stuff about.
But Juliana is supposed to be a real human! The transporter-chiefs must really wonder:
"Why the heck is there next to no carbon and water in there? Where's all the 60% water a human is made of?!? Why so much Titanium?!?!"
xD
@@MistedMind I rather thought that a transporter operator wouldn't have that much knowledge about what is being transported. Only that the transport is going correctly.
The REAL Soong legacy: How many times can Brent Spiner sneak back into Trek NOT as Data???
Hes so smart and sneaky, he built a time machine and appeared on an 80s-90s TV sitcom, acting as a bit of a hillbilly. Truly an evil genius!
@@brokenacoustic I also remember him on an episode of The Outer Limits, involving an alien invasion of Earth.
@Mike DeMarco Nooo! 😮😮😮
The Mad Atheist and cheers
@@brokenacoustic lets not forget his scientific involvement during the Battle of 1996 in Area 51
Brent Spiner is an awesome actor. He made Data one of the best characters in the Trek universe.
Yes. And when watching Data vs. Brent.. it really is like they are two totally different people. Different personality, mannerisms, etc..
He did such a good job it's jarring seeing him in the Data make up and costume but being himself it's like we are looking at a mirror universe
3 dr soongs, lore, b4
He played a regular character on Nightcourt and was hilarious.
He would make a great cast for Grand Admral Thrawn
Lore is what happens when you're born already an adult. He acts like an overgrown toddler. Jealous, selfish, greedy and with no compassion for others. Summoning the Crystalline Entity to destroy the colony is the android version of stamping his foot and screaming.
As you mentioned, Data was given the chance to grow mentally. The same way a human would.
@JayMane so far Trump hasn't summoned a world-eating supermonster. but I will grant you that's a "yet"
HRC was the Borg Queen. So take a pick
@JayMane Trump was born as a fully formed adult?
Effectively the same result - he was raised rich, in a bubble without ever experiencing adversity. No problem money couldn't solve. Thus, he's arrived ass-first in his 70's without problem solving skills, self awareness or even basic empathy, much like a newborn.
@JayMane Ok, i'll try to do that, rather than make a throwaway goofy joke.
Data wasn't only one of the most remarkable technologies in the Federation, but also one of the most remarkable officers and men in the Federation.
In his effort to become like us, he showed us what it truly means to be human.
PongoXBongo Data was also fully functional.
@@carlive9532 LOL, Tasha can testify to that ; )
Scott Gray Tasha is a Romulan now.
@@SavageDarknessGames No that's Sela, her daughter from an alternate timeline
Creepy scene...
Data: I'm scared!
Picard: data, turn off your emotion chip, now!
Data: click, done, sir
Picard: data, there are times when i envy you..
. . . then he runs into Deanna going into the jacuzzi in a two piece. . then turns the chip back on.
@@slimdudeDJC " Fully Functional "
@@BELCAN57 I jist imagined him saying that, and its a work of art.
Close if I’m not mistaken it goes
Data: I believe I’m feeling anxiety. It is a most intriguing sensation...
Picard: data perhaps it would be best if you deactivate your emotion chip.
Data: done
Picard: data there are times I envy you.
Sorry that movie is probably my favorite so I can see that scene almost perfectly.
@@BELCAN57 Actually, he was fully functional two words Tasha Yar.
I believe the reason the "Soong Family line" are all mega-genius-level brilliant creators is because he really has no family line at all. They are all clones of the same Soong. He's been cloning himself for centuries, and maybe there is another clone still out there. Thus, you open the doors for new "Soong-type" androids...
I thought that Arik Soong and Noonian were the same guy and he just escaped again, changed his name and continued with androids instead of augments. Maybe augmented himself a bit so he could live longer. He does looks 200 years old when Data meets him.
Perhaps he perfected his work and mad himself a android
I like that theory!!
Data was BY FAR the most successful ... He interacted with humans in a way that made them respect and love him, and he reached a point where he sacrificed himself for a "Friend" ....
And the moment he made that sacrifice was the moment when Star Trek died.
@@PeterPanik_ Yup, pretty much. Been a mess ever since.
Rest in Peace Data...
"Was I a good Android?"
"No Data.. you were the best artificial human who has ever lived."
"No, because you aren't an android. You're a robot. To answer your question though, you were the best robot who ever existed."
So you're an aging Dr. Soong. You know how to make a virtually immortal android body. You know how to download a human mind into it so seamlessly that the person didn't even know they were an android. And you just die?
Grin. I see a story line there.
Someone already beat you to it. There is a series of STNG novels about Dr. Soong living in an android body, reappearing on the enterprise when B-4 starts to degrade, and giving up his life so that Data can use his android body. Then Data's experiences as he takes over his father's life outside starfleet.
Couldn’t they retcon Soong dying that he was like Julianna and Android designed to die ?
Kenneth Draper I liked those books. I’m glad they included the part about being transferred in real time while being aware, and how he was aware of his existence in BOTH bodies at the same time. Otherwise, you’d just be a copy.
Cold Equations. Damn good series.
@@kdrapertrucker i hope they include this storyline into Picard somehow
Aside from Juliana, who was made to be exactly human, and indistinguishable to humans, Data was really the bridge. Data wasn't given true emotions, but through his years aboard the enterprise, his experiences helped him develop some very clear emotional likenesses. He developed attachments. His relationship with Tasha was special to him. While he couldn't emotionally process her death, he absolutely felt her absence. His relationship with Geordi was also extemely close. Geordi was his best friend, and on multiple occasions Data shows obvious attachment and care for Geordi's wellbeing, even over his other crewmates. His attachment to Picard was obvious, as he more than anyone else, influenced Data's drive for humanity.
Also, Data enjoyed spending time with his crewmates outside the job. He never missed senior staff poker night. He used it as a way to study human behavior, but he also immersed himself into it (even dressing the part), even learning to bluff.
Given enough time, Data likely would have learned all of the emotions, or at least how and when to mimic and employ them. He does so with perfect precision (sterness and anger) in Redemption II, when Hobson is being insubordinate.
Broken down, all human action can be simplified into logical decisions, regardless of how chaotic or irrational they seem. So, given enough time, Data may very well have developed an emotional range similar to a human, on his own, simply through continued experience.
I think that both Data and Lore had emotions but Data's were limited so that he doesn't take any and everything perceived offense personally and try to get back at the offender out of spite. If Data truly didn't have emotions, he would have been able to enjoy and be fascinated by things, form bonds with people and his cat, or get annoyed with people mispronouncing his name. And we do see him clearly express all of these.
As Brent Spiner would say, it was all worth it to work with his three favorite people. Lore, B4, and Soong.
"Often Wrong" Soong had a broken heart, couldn't tell his boys apart...
Lal
It was a joke, his three favorite people are all himself.
A
Thanks for giving us the data and lore on, uh, Data and Lore!
It's interesting to note that the Soong family never did give up their goal to improve on humanity, they just changed the path to reach this goal.
Data has been one of my favorite characters in Star Trek.
Marc Lytle There are a ton of great moments, and I know this is a dark horse contender... but I think the “life forms” song is my very favorite Star Trek moment. It always makes me laugh, and it always makes me tear up a bit at the same time.
@@holographicbunny3297 Just chuckled remembering that, and the looks the others gave him.
"Because, as we've established, Lore was turning into a bit of a dick." I died. XD
TNG episode *_The Nth degree…_* [the one where Lt Barkley becomes hyper intelligent] - A missed opportunity
*Data:* "Excuse me Lieutenant Barkley, sorry for interrupting your violin masterclass.… I was wondering if with your enhanced intellect you could fix my deceased daughter Lal. And if you could show me what went wrong and the secret to creating more Soong type androids, it would be most appreciated." [Hands Lt Barkley a Personal Access Display Device]
*Lt. Barkley:* "Certainly Mr Data, I have always appreciated your kindness, let's see, a cascade failure…you did save her engrams? …good.
Got it! class dismissed. [starts furiously typing on the PADD] let's go to your lab Mr Data, I'm entering the data [wry smile] in this pad as we go, then after we test it I can download all the construction techniques straight into your mind for future offspring …
Have you considered letting me upgrade you Mr Data? I have some concepts - although perhaps it's better to do so with your next child after Lal, I'll show you the specifications"…
Also known as lt broccoli and a holo adict
Sure the time machine awaits you to go back time to be a writer at CBS for TNG.
I always thought that Data may have continued working on Lal in secret. Especially in consideration of what Star Fleet had attempted to do the last time she was activated.
@@henrynorcrossii3363 Didn't he save lals memory or personality in his positronic brain, and then he downloaded his mind/memories into B4. Does this mean B4 has two androids in his head?
@@difficultbastard yes he did. That's one of the reasons why I think he continued to work on her neuro-net after she shut down. I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to get her back to working order with a different appearance. Perhaps with artificial life signs based on his mother. After Star Fleet attempted to have her seized he may have set her up in a new life somewhere with or without her previous memories.
The trick with Juliana is that her mind was a copy from an organic being. Lore and Data both had established personalities that had to be build from scratch through a combination of creativity and experience. While her body was more sophisticated, her mind was unoriginal in comparison. Given that Data’s mind was the most psychologically stable, and original, I would give the award to him. Would you be willing to please put together an informational vid on the Luna Class?
Jason Robbins I agree. With Juliana, the “operating system” was already there. The hardware just had to be made to run it. With Data and Lore, enough software had to be in place to get them started, but needed to be able to get out of the way as the individual personalities formed. I imagine the former would be trickier in terms of the technology needed to copy a human mind onto an artificial neural network, but the latter would have been trickier from a software design perspective.
Juliana could also never be told she was an android or she would shut down, soong explains this in the holoprogram data finds
Soong probably worked on mind uploading with his mentor. They both independently perfected the technology.
I would make the argument that Juliana the Android, is unique from the organic life-form that provided the original neuron patterns. If Dr.Soone had successfully developed a completely dynamic positronc neural network, the synapses pattern of Juliana the Android would eventually evolve to become unique from the original bass pattern. And had she survived, I'm sure Juliana's neural synapses pattern would have become unique from her Android counterpart as well.
I would argue Juliana technically wasn't an android at all, but rather a cyborg. In practical terms she was an organic life form inhabiting a synthetic body, the fact that her physical brain was synthetic as well is arguably incidental.
Data is by far my most favorite character in the Star Trek universe.
The real amazing thing here was brent spinners amazing acting range!
I always felt Data ended up with more relatives than any of the human characters from Star Trek. And there were great stories around all of them!
Creates blinking algorithms and a reason for breathing but went with the creepy skin colour
Soong's dedication to realism was matched only by his love for the twilight films.
I think the pale skin was intentional for the prototypes, something that could be swapped out at a later date (or artificially recolored?). It's possible that the Federation has laws against creating exact android duplicates (see what happened with Jim Kirk a couple times), so the alabaster skin was a way of breaking the verisimilitude and saying "this near-exact double of me isn't an exact double. I'm not going to commit marriage fraud or fake my own death with one of these things."
There are countless humanoid species with all sorts of colors.
If Data wouldn't tell you he is an android, you would just assume he is a species you haven't seen before
I think he was trying to find how close to the uncanny valley he could get without falling in, or at least that's the rationale I use to tell myself that it's not a raging plot hole.
The colours match exactly Frankenstein's monster, which was also described as being so horrbile to behold that its own creator fled from it, and others tried to kill it on sight, with only one blind man being able to tolerate the monster's presence.
I think it was Roddenberry's attempt to prove that notion to be nonsense. Data _is_ Frankenstein's monster: An artificial human being built from scratch, but without human limitations: Superhumanly strong, intelligent, more energy efficient, immune to disease, and immortal. Except that his name is Data Soong, not Adam Frankenstein, but that is a superficial detail; much like the monster's complexion, incidentally.
I noticed the stills from when Data and Bashir met. In a way they are like distant cousins, as Bashir was an augment 🤓
Bashir's story is kind of sad. I hate his character, he's just such a smug asshole, but given what happened to him, it makes ME feel like the asshole. Dammit, DS9 writers!
Bashir was not related to the augments of ariks era,he was augmented years after he was born
@@tixxoncraft likely using work from or influenced by Soong, he was a genius pioneer in the field and it seems unlikely he wouldn't have had some impact I'd say it's still apt to call them cousins of a sort
Since Data WAS an Officer in Starfleet, I think it SHOULD be a Personnel File video! It just makes sense!
essentially Lore was an evil badass with a mind of his own
The Offspring was one of my favorite TNG episodes at the end of it: Data thanks him for the sympathy, but points out that she is there with him: that her presence enriched his life so much that he could not allow her to pass in oblivion. That is why he transferred her memories into himself. Perhaps one of the most powerful moments in the entire series.
Lore: *indirectly slaughters thousands of humans*
Certifiably Ingame: H e b e c a m e a b i t o f a d i c k
I consider Lore a tragic villain in a way. One of my favorite scenes with lore is in the Episode 'Brothers' where he defiantly and resolutely says he's leaving Data and Soong to go away, only to be stopped by Soong saying " _i'm dying_ " which makes Lore almost panic and despair, his voice cracking up as he says " _You can't die, you look fine... You look fine._ ", and that honestly always makes me tear up. So him then killing Soong I don't think was intentional, but rather the combination of his emotions with the emotion-chip causing a dangerous psychosis in his system.
The most successful is without a doubt, Data, while Juliana is... Human.
Data is one of my favorite Star Trek characters ever if not the favorite one. Now I love Dr. McCoy, Spock, Kirk and the rest of the gang but Data is a Robit and I love Robits.
What I like it is the alternate timeline / future book about Data called _Children of Soong_ , where it goes down a rather, dark path.
[blank stare] "What's a robit"
@@WobblesandBean Roooobits!
Love me some robits. Beep boop.
I always thought the episode where Data creates his daughter ("Offspring"? I dunno, can't remember which ep it was these days) was one of the most well written and touching episodes of the whole series. For an episode with no action or crazy science adventurism, it's still very engaging and leaves the viewer thinking about the various issues it touched on before emotional and very sad conclusion.
Bonus: I recall experiencing strong emotional reactions throughout much of the episode, but the part where Lal couldn't fit at school with the rest of kids and Data did his best to be a good parent was like being shot with phase rifle at full power right in the feels. Combining childhood issues of not fitting in at school as a kid with the awkward yet we'll meaning attempts by Data the help his daughter cope with the situation was just so real and relatable for me that even now I can feel the tightness in my chest when recalling the scene. Great writing and execution all around. IMO they should've won an Emmy for this episode.
For me, it's when Lal's cascade failure starts, and both Data and the Admiral are attempting to repair her. When the Admiral comes out of the science lab to talk with the other officers, and he's explaining just how hard Data was working to try and save Lal... I always get choked up just thinking about it.
@@cruzcoda yeah, that the exact part gets me too. Also, once it becomes clear that Data's lack of emotion is stopping him from being able to properly mourn her passing, well that's just lot heavier than the typical ST:TNG plot line tends to get.
I find it unbelievable that Data never tried again.
@@cruzcoda his hands... they move so fast
David Wührer probably too painful even though Data wouldn’t recognize the pain or loss.
Data was more successful. Julianne was a copy of life where data was a unique life
This really gives more context to the 1st episode of Picard
We never learnt where Shinzon actually got b4 from in the first place.
And I think Data is lefthanded, whilst Lore is righthanded.
Probably the Tal-Shiar/Zhat Vash bought it off some Ferengi peddler that harvested the planet previously. They were aligned to support Shinzon.
@@oldtwinsna8347 Was that mentioned in the movie? My explanation is the writers just didn't care or think that far.
Now the Maddox bio-androids are the most advanced, still rooted in Soong tech though.
You've forgotten all about the prototype of the very first variety of soong design android - Mark Zuckerberg.
Sure, there are some human qualities missing, but I'm sure later editions will iron those wrinkles out.
Mark is not a android hes a worthless Libtard!
@@subsoro8522 r/whoosh
@@subsoro8522 lol, why the hate? (reads about the ban against Alex Jones....) Ah, you miss the lizard conspiracies :P
He's just a Millennial billionaire to me, who made his fortune on an idea that he partly built, partly stole. Nothing wrong with that, Bill Gates did the same thing and so did President Trump.
Please he's not an android, all those creepy features come from being a Rothschild and culminated as a result of genetic deficiencies form centuries of rampant inbreeding.
@@time391 He was given the code by the CIA. He didn't do anything except be a frontman, selling his soul for a dollar.
Data is fully functional, fully functional.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
"I MADE A ROBOT WITH A DICK, YO"
EP2 SO1
Exactly what I look for in my trans girlfriends coincidentally...
Programmed in multiple techniques.
In the TNG novels, Dr. Soong's body may have perished but he had an even more advanced android body awaiting his consciousness to transfer over into.
and we just got another character for the new Picard Series!
Oh that is from the Cold Equations trilogy. Dr. Soong barely survived from Lore's attack and transferred himself into a younger android body. During the interim, he created a new advanced body for Data after learning of his death in Nemesis, while searching for the Juliana android. However, due to the events of the Borg massive invasion in Destiny trilogy, Soong loses the almost finished body and eventually sacrifices his own body so that Data can revive himself from B4's positronic brain (part of his engram was saved but fading slowly from B4's mind asserting itself). That seems to be the final time Dr. Soong was seen in the TNG novel series.
Tng novels aren't/shouldn't be Canon
William Campbell, yeah, that's the generally accepted norm that they aren't...
@@randybentley2633 stop talking about them then
alright...... looks like I'm going on a binge watch of TNG.
again.
Great Recap. I knew 90% of this but I still enjoyed how to you presented it. This is great recap for anyone watching Star Trek Picard
Noonian Soong ... related to (Khan) Noonien Singh? ... kind of---both characters (it's said) were named after a friend of Gene Roddenberry's, Kim Noonien Singh, whom Roddenberry hadn't heard from and so put his name in on the chance that Kim would hear it and contact Gene.
In the video it said that he created augments or superhumans , maybe that's where Khan came from...
"How can it not know what it is? (Decker: BLADE RUNNER ). It's still an Android even if it doesn't know what it is. So, Juliana is the culmination of his work a complete success.
This is making me wonder about the creation of Soji and Dahj.
Just think, now, Dr Soong (Alton Inigo) has a Borg cube to take apart and learn from and develop. I wonder what he can do with that?
Great work man. Thanks for this it was awesome.
Ah Data! One of Soong's greatest creations.
Data always had emotions....they were just software and poorly emulated. The asic chip he later got to process emotions. At least that is how I saw it.
They weren't emotions. Data repeatedly states throughout the series that he has no emotions. What he has are a mimicry of human emotional reactions. For example, when faced with new information, he acquires a confused or intreged expression; even though he's not actually confused or intreged.
In essence, he appears to have emotions, even though he doesn't have them. This is the explanation given during the Ecounter at Farpoint pilot.
@@chrisbingley I always suspected that he had emotions, but he just didn't recognize them for what they were. There were many times when he had a response that he could only have with emotions.
For example when he was attempting to save Lal. An emotionless robot would have run through the available information, and concluded that she couldn't be saved. Data was attempting to save his child, and he continued working past the point that an emotionless robot would have given up. Also his little alien child pen pal who's planet was going to be destroyed. Doctor Pulaski recognized his emotions by caring for and wanting to help her. I still don't believe it was an accident when he turned up the volume.
Doctor Pulaski deserved more time, or at least a few guest starring roles. Her character had so much potential beyond being a less likeable female McCoy.
@@henrynorcrossii3363 What about that time he was held prisoner by that collector guy. Collector guy kills the slave who had befriended, and was helping Data escape, and when Data is holding him in his (deadly) weapon sights, and is being beamed out in rescue, the transporter technician mentions that he has to deactivate the weapon firing. Data says something along the lines that exotic weapon must have reacted to the transport beam, making it misfire. The film it so that the staff readily accept this explanation, but audience is left suspicious.
@@difficultbastard Data probably liked her, and he wasn't aware that he was about to be rescued. Frankly I think he was pissed off, and he had the legitimate excuse needed to end the collector's life. That person had outright murdered a person directly in front of him, and he had the self-defense/defense of the lives of others to use in any inquiry about the killing.
@@henrynorcrossii3363 Yeah, that's what I was hinting at. He was firing after the death, so it was done in anger/hate..so revenge. He doesn't even seem to be fully aware of it, as mentioned before here, because otherwise his explanation would be a lie/coverup. There's a number of occasions like this, from little reactions that don't fully add up to a logic completely devoid of emotion, to full blown extended plot points, that CAN be explained away, but leave suspicion, such as when he was beaten at a game, and removes himself from duty, when he cannot figure out why he lost. The amount of occasions, and the deliberate way in which the are filmed (pausing at face closeups), lead me to believe that although there may not have a specific collusion between the writers toward this end, that he is simply hinted at maybe having emotions to often for it to be ignored.
His emotions seem muted, and he doesn't seem to realise he is experiencing them, during, or after upon reflection, but I'm convincing something is happening.
I have to admit, the one thing that made me sad was when Data's daughter Lal died. Not that she died, but that she, that is her character didn't continue on for some time. I think it might have added another dimension to Data and their own dynamic might have been interesting. For instance.....dating or some other type of interpersonal relationship.
So Dr Soong created 5 androids, not counting his wife. B4, Data and Lore had names obviously but what of the two original androids/sons? Were they nameless? What became of them?
I always assumed their positronic brains failed much Data's daughter Lol did and were deactivated.
@@mstrdonmyshrt4219 the one that was all kissy with riker or the one in the painting
Can’t wait to see Data more in Picard
batnacks The trailer was misleading, but probably intentionally, because Data and the other Anndroids that appeared in the previous series are not in it apart from the fact that they're all dead. Still I thought it was kind of cool what they did with the flesh and blood android concept. I don't think it was very fair of Starfleet to ban all synthetic life, but I am curious to see where this goes.
The amazing thing about the soonian androids is that his technology inevitably produced unique individuals with distinct personalities. I wonder how many soonian androids it would take to equal or surpass a federation capital ship's computer system.
I would say Data is the most successful cause , he tried to create another android . This off the subject of this video . I think it is wrong for Lore to be taken apart . Lore was never put on trail for his action with the rogue borg cube . He was put to death by being taken apart . This happens well after Soong Type Android has been declared a life form .
@Victor Snider: Correct, however, there is something to be said for the fact that the one whom sentenced him to death... was Data - another Soong type android. One could then argue, that Data is the most logically equipped person to judge Lore, hence, a trial has already been completed - and with the speed Data's mind works, then he may well have already weighted the alternatives and outcomes of his decision, quite thoroughly.
Of course, Lore was, according to some sources, not actually destroyed - just deactivated and disassembled - this is not quite the same as "death" to a humanoid, even though the state is functionally similar - for an android, they can be reassembled and rehabilitated once one understands them well enough to do so.
Perhaps Lore was never reassembled, because Data deemed that it was not yet possible to rehabilitate him, but he had the ambition that this would eventually be possible?
@@predabot__6778 You bring up many fine points to think about . I would say Lore should have been put trail for his crimes by another body outside of the Star fleet .
Maybe there should have been a trial, but come on Lore had multiple chances and each time he proved he was evil. First, Soong activated him, he became unstable and Soong had to deactivate him, but not before Lore called the Crystalline Entity in on the colonist and had the colony destroyed. Then the Enterprise finds him and reactivates him and he tries to have the ship and crew destroyed by the same Crystalline Entity. They had to beam his ass into space. Then he stole Data's emotion chip and killed Soong when he was unknowingly summoned by Soong along with Data. Took control of a rogue group of Borg and attacked the Federation. He absolutely deserved deactivation.
@@tboneforreal I agree Lore has display that he is evil .
For a Soong type android being disassembled is not a death sentence. They can be reassembled, and continue their lives from where they left off. Unless it's the result of massive damage.
Where is Data's Daughter Lal? She was made by data but was based off of Data's on design specifications. So she's sort of a Soong type android?
True. In the novels, data through whatever means returns or a reasonable facsimile thereof. He eventually i believe gives himself some upgrades and reactivates Lal, and lives for a time as father and daughter.
Yes, admiral Hansen (the guy who tries to seperate Lal and Data), specifically states that Lal is a Soong-type android...it becomes his main argument for separating them. He says that it's too risky to allow the only two known Soong type androids to possibly be destroyed by "one lucky shot from a Romulan"
Matt M then why allow Data to function as an officer in Starfleet then.
The one lucky shot argument is big reason to keep children off ships too.
Anybody wonder why Data can’t be replicated since he is a walking talking tin can?
@@2bituser569 I'm not saying it was a good argument lol... But it was the argument that "Starfleet Research" felt was strong enough to justify approving the Admiral to seperate Lal from Data.
Picard said it was a fine argument, but he disagreed with it.
Picard said he would not allow the separation and said he would take it to Starfleet Command himself, but never got a chance because Lal's brain suffered systems failure while the argument was happening.
As for the other question, it was stated numerous times that data couldn't be replicated because no one could figure out how to make a stable positronic brain. It was supposedly only something Soong had been able to do. Starfleet Research proposed taking Data apart to figure out the secret, but data argued that they didn't have the expertise to create a stable positronic brain and that detail became one of main drivers that concerned Picard enough to start that whole trial for data's rights. Data thought he figured it out when he discovered a new technology at a conference, so he created Lal....but then it turned out he wasn't actually able to do it and Lal's brain suffered a cascade failure
@@mattm7378 Well he is just an admiral. Have you seen how many bonkers admirals there are in star fleet?
Great video. I often wonder about the other types of androids we’ve seen throughout Trek. Like the Mudd type androids.
I think they were for the most part closer to modern AI's and expert systems, or a smaller version of a starship's main computer. Intelligent, but not actually sentient: they can solve certain types of problems and (within certain limits) can respond to unexpected requests, but don't really have much initiative or will of their own.
In star trek it seems that making an Android body is relatively easy, as Mudd has tons of them laying around, the real challenge is having the Android have sentience, as Mudd's are pretty much just crude Holo deck program of himself mashed into a Android body.
Daystrom's M4 computer was a copy of his brain patterns. It was neither an android (because it was not human-like in hardware or appearance) nor, technically, an artificial intelligence (just a copy of a natural one); it was at best a robot (once it got the Enterprise as its body) or a cyborg (if you consider the brain copy "organic").
But in principle you could just plunk that electronic brain into an android body made of cloned living human tissue. And that should qualify as an android.
Although the M4 computer might have to remote control its human body.
Spock's brain was once put into a robotic body. Almost the same thing.
Another artificial human-like mind is that of Dr Moriarty that Geordi LaForge accidentally had the Enterprise-D computer create in a game of Cluedo. So that doesn't seem to have been a major challenge.
The Binaries also created a human-like mind intentionally to distract from their hijacking the Enterprise-D's core memory. (Or was it bubble memory? It certainly wasn't punch tape.)
Voyager's Emergency Medical Hologram (which inexplicably is not called Rimmer) is also a human-like mind, but that, just like the M4 computer, is also based on a copy of a human brain. An alien civilisation thought he was an android though.
My theory is that the Crystaline Entity fled when the Tripoli showed up then when it realized it wasn't a threat it returned.
Data is the obvious cause he had screen time and attachment, but Julianna is a close second. B4 is a template, hence, he was just a construct. taking Data's memories was just making B4 a backup.
@Daniel Appleton it wasn't handling her emotions that was an issue, her positronic net wasn't stable, if the emotions had been designed on purpose and the net was stable, but something that cant last longer than a few weeks isn't super successful.
Clearly a video on Lewis Zimmerman needs to come next
Yeah, sending a bunch of sophisticated medical programs to do mining work instead of just programming some barebones holograms with no feelings or the capacity to learn. Genius.
Although, considering how easy it is to make an AI in the Trek world (just get a single word wrong in a computer command).
Sooooo...... given that she remarried and nobody noticed it's safe to say he also perfected the self lubricating fleshlight insert......
I mean, that's old tec in star trek. Holo decks were built around it. Side she was an old lady so if she was a little dry that could be understood.
Only Noonien Soong would build a sex robot so advanced that she leaves him and remarries. He must've had three or four less-advanced Julianas on standby.
They're actually all sexbots
She was married, so there was no need to emulate that aspect....
@Мармеладов ТВ They run on imagination and dreams. They use non-newtonion motors that never wear out. The skin is made out of recycled fleshlights (Soong was really into the Green movement).
When you said Star Trek, I felt that
Data got his rights from that trial in 'Measure of a Man' circa 2365, not 2367.
Who cares?
WHO WOULDN’T?
@@theostaschik6870 i get when it comes to technical accuracy, but that was an honest mistake. No need for that kinda talk. I mean the OP even says 'circa'...
Data is my favorite character of Star Trek. Sorry if I made you upset due to the comment (even though it is true that a lot of people care about the star date)
@@theostaschik6870 nah dude, it's alright. I get it. Over things I'm pretty passionate I react in a similar way. Have a good one!
If you have never seen it, one of Rodenberry's earlier pilots "The Questor Tapes" is a great look into the early proto development of what would later be reworked for STTNG and become the Data and Soong story's.
Thanks for the tip! I love Roddenberry's visions, but I was unaware of this.
In a way, Data was more human than many, if not most, of us - and that constantly. He looked at things not *just* with a cold, analytical and logical mind. He always added his own personality, his drive for curiosity and a childish sense of awe and wonder. Data routinely combined all these elements on the fly and made decisions when needed, all while being open for things outside his own world. He was superior, sure - but he also had the ability to assess his own value to this capability. Is it truly important who is objectively "better" at something?
I truly love Brents performance, as a child and now as an adult =) His episodes were always highlights in terms of actual story. It often made me reflect on my own behavior, what I could have learned - made perhaps differently. It made me question my own thought patters, how I used to view things. That's the true success of THE Soong-Type Android, at least for me. I could learn from this ... magnificent machine that had the spirit of an explorer, a seeker of knowledge, and the soul of ... well, a fellow sentient being ^-^
_Stay safe everyone_
Appreciate the information! I would like to see a video on Data.
I'm ambivalent about not seeing "OOOOH SHIIIIIIIIT!" spammed all over the comments.
Actually adding something to this conversation, I'd say that Juliana is the "objective ideal" culmination of the project, but Data and Lore share the crown as the ones who truly "bridge the gap"... you can't cross a boundary if you just wake up on the far side.
The fact that Juliana doesn’t realize she’s an android makes her the biggest achievement in the intent of having an artificial live form as close as possible to organic live forms
damn I just realized I didn't pay attention to the entire video. Better watch it again.
Data was the best. Period. Reason: he chose to give up his life for his family.
Data himself was obviously the most successful version. He had all of the strengths in the end. And none of their weaknesses.!
Wonderful video!! It's a thorough and detailed summary of the 4 known Soong androids. Thank you!! Looking forward to your video on Data.
If you think about it, Soong's family never did stop in their effort to make better humans, they just changed how they pursued their goal.
I also think that Data is the must successful to this point. Juliana is the most human like but I would argue that this is because she is more of a copy of an actual humans brain patterns.
Yes her human like body is incredible at hiding her artificial origin but that is imho not the biggest point to judge an android on.
Data on the other hand became more and more human like through his experiences. Even the emotion chip just provided him with more experiences. He became more human like by himself not by taking another humans brain patterns and implanting it into an android body.
His mental and emotional development from just imitating human behavior without larger understanding to the level of actual understanding of the human / sentient condition and of emotions is a much bigger success in my opinion.
I agree. Juliana is, as you say, a copy of a human brain, put into a soong android...an accomplishment of a different sort, but much of the work already done. Data is self actualised from scratch.
Considering the emergent capacities of holograms like the Doctor, I'd say Starfleet has gotten pretty close to replicating the results in a different way.if somebody can figure out how to build a body than a holomatrix can live inside, they would be able to produce Androids whenever they wanted.
The Holo-Doctor doesn't have it's own body though, but rather is just a projection of the subroutines run by the various Super-Computers about the starships.
Only with a mobile emitter from the 2900 century (!!!) the Doc can have his program made mobile outside a ship!
And even then I'm not sure if the ship-computer needs to continuously communicate with the emitter, much like the Steam-Stream, where your PC-machine renders your game and you hand-held mini-console just has a screen and buttons to steer through the game.
memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Mobile_emitter
The EMH was probably based on the Dr Moriarty that LaForge created by accident.
David Wührer create sentient holograms just by repeating the phrase about being capable of defeating Data.
Etterra I agree, however the only reason that the doctor was able to move freely was because of technology from 500 years in the future, which consequently I have to wonder why Relativity never confiscated, because it seems like a major oversight on their part to allow Voyager to keep 29th century technology. they were so obsessed with not altering the timeline, yet the acquisition of that device significantly impacted Voyager's future.
I have started to wonder if Dr Julian Bashir and Juliana and Dr Soong are somehow connected. With the possibility Dr Soong supplanted his income through discreetly carrying on his other family inherited work genetics.
I'm here after the 1st episode of Picard. I had to rewatch this.. it definitely has more relevance!!!!!!
Oh wasn't it so plot convenient, that human-like androids couldn't be mass produced?
" Lore was turning into a bit of a dick" LOL
Juliana's status as an artificial person seems to be the closest approximation to actual humanity that Dr. Soong ever achieved. However, she reminds me of the old philosophical question in coin collecting: "If a counterfeit fools everyone, is it still a counterfeit?" Data, by comparison, had the most human experiences. He grew the most. He was even given a taste of emotion by Q long before he had that emotion chip. He had a frame of reference for many human experiences that we've never seen Lore or B4 have; the turning off of his internal chronometer to experience time passing differently when watching (or ignoring) a kettle of water come to a boil. He had sex. He painted and tried to write poetry. He even experienced true organic tissue grafted onto his arm by the Borg Queen, so he had experienced a true and genuine sensation of having organic tissue connected to his positronic brain, something Lore and B4 certainly never experienced. In short, Data's growth through his experiences most closely parallels a human life. In my opinion.
Lore is the most succesful because he figured out how to communicate w/the Crystal Entity & got the renegade Borg to treat him like a god. definitely exceeded his programming.
I thought his skin was gold, but just didn't show up properly on screen.
The one question I have is: Why Data never took Soong's name as is "father", and call himself Data Soong? He's always referred to as Data or Mr. Data, why not Mr. Soong?
gschneyer perhaps data never thought he was worthy of sharing the name, or that Data was his full name since that was his designation
I liked the interaction between Daya and Spock, where they were “jealous” of each other’s natural abilities: Data’s lack of emotions and Spock’s abandonment of his. Also I wonder if B’Elanna Torres got to work on B4 or Lore at Starfleet, since she had a hand in creating stable android life in the Delta Quadrant. (And then killing it.)
I like the way Adventure Time played homage to B4 from star trek. Beemo was designated B.Mo...Be more. Just like Data strived to be more.
Me: "I don't want the video to end."
Also Me: "I can see that _______."
Some say he was inspired to make androids when he found a old Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus on the beach.
There's a throwaway line in the Julianna episode that suggest Data can age as well.
No mention of Lal? Granted she wasn't a full success but Data was able to build a temporarily functioning soong-type positronic brain which was blossoming emotion beyond its programming.
She had a cascade failure of her matrix as I recall. Pretty serious stuff. Like cloning a human and then turn out fine for 5 minutes then suddenly die of the most horrific type of death like their organs foldings inwards. I think that's why they classified her as a bad science experiment that wasn't fully vetted out, hence Data did not try again.
I would love Voyagers doctor and Data to team up with 7 of 9 in the new show.
robots , adroids and cybernetic lifeforms oh my. you know that also has a robotic veron of them, Zerg. food for thought
I agree. He says in “First Contact” that he was made to evolve, as well as his father says it when he dreams and talks to him. Because he was evolving, his emotions came about as well. He just always thought they weren’t as intense so he didn’t feel them, when in fact, he did. When talking to his mother about Lal, he looks away in the distance for a second when he describes her death. He grieved. His father said he would grieve him as well “in his own way.” I believe that he made Data like that on purpose. He was going to evolve to become the precious and kind personality he was, the “good” personality, or he was going to evolve to end up like Lore. I believe that is why he waited to give him the emotion chip. To trust that he was ready to experience the strong feelings of those emotions.
This is a very detailed and good video. I think that Data did have emotions all along but Dr. Soong programmed him to be much more mellow and reserved than Lore so that he doesn't get offended easily and lash out at people or let negative emotions influence his good judgment because, with his superhuman strength and abilities, it would have been disastrous for everyone around him if Data were to ever lose his temper over anything or panic in a critical situation and screw up. Throughout the TV and movie series, we can clearly see that Data was capable of enjoying things, being curious and intrigued, getting annoyed when people mispronounce his name, bonding with people and his cat, and showing caring and concern for others, often even more than himself. All of which would have been impossible if he really didn't have emotions at all. I think that Lore is a tragic character in that he had emotions from the start and couldn't turn them off when they became inconvenient and debilitating, something that Data was able to do when he got his emotion chip. I think that Lore got the short end of the stick and it wasn't totally his fault that he turned out the way he did. Data was lucky that he had a better start in life and that people generally treated him better. He also lived among humans and observed them as an android long enough that he was able to handle his emotions more responsibly when he finally did install the chip that allowed him to feel them as intensely as Lore.
All my favourite Trek characters touch on this tech & biology intersection: Data, Seven-of-Nine, and the EMH (a.k.a. "Joe").
I wanted to see a team up with the outsiders/superhumans, so Data interacting with seven (which we may get to see), but also I fancied seeing how ODO would react to either. It would be interesting to see what they could accomplish in a mission together.
difficultbastard would be nice to see an original character from ds9. Imagine an assimilated Odo or founder be like terminator from t2
@@2bituser569 I had actually briefly wondered about an assimilated founder. I'm also curious to know how 8472 would interact with founders, and when thinking along similar lines, how those..is it Hirogen? (hunters like the predator in delta quadrant) would fair againt the dominions foot soldiers. So many interactions we never see.
Andy B I still think it was rather hilarious that it took the EMH so many years to come up with Joe.
it would actually be really interesting if they brought Odo back in Picard, which I doubt they will do but I would love to see.
Can't wait for PICARD I'm getting really excited
You have the best and richest content on Star Trek - Thank you and keep up the great work :)
No one ever talks about the TOS androids, which were of at least 3 different types.
Korby-type using alien tech from Exo-III
Mudd-type using tech from extragalactic aliens
And Flint-type using tech developed over Flint’s 6000 year lifetime.
All easily passed for human most of the time. I find it strange that Soong never mentions studying any of those types of androids.
Ied love to see a video on Data as while I know the General flow of his life after the show I know very little of his starfleet career before that like how did he end up joining and been aloud to join?
As for who was the most successful ied say it was probably Lore as his sociopathic nature definitely made him the most human, but if your measuring stick is who became the best they can be it’s Data, or maybe Data4 I don’t know what to call that one as it’s not actually Data or B4 it’s something new that has the joys of remembering both life’s.
Lore, was a psychopath! No doubt!
In Star Trek Picard there was a scene showing Soong Type androids standing in storage like those Androids in Alien Isolation.
look I know you're just doing your job objectively but Data is a person in every sense of the term and a wonderful one at that. I would also argue that he did develop his own forms of emotions without the chip, as shown multiple times throughout the series, and that those emotions are no less valid than the ones provided by the emotion chip.
11:39 So "Star Trek: Picard" retconned this, Data is still dead and B-4 is still B-4 and also disassembled.
Rubbish, isn't it?
I gotta say B4 was, given his limited technology, he was still able to make a choice that even Data couldn't. To allow all he was to be erased, knowing it was the most appropriate, and beneficial action to be made. B4 understood that through his sacrifice, he was to accomplish more good than he ever could while activated.
Data, even was against the erasure of B4 to enable the return of his "consciousness". He was against it, despite the "Data Ident" having a more than significantly increased value to Starfleet/The Federation/Universe et al.
B4 could both see this, and make that difficult honorable decision. Data couldn't make that tough, but (in a 'ends justify the means' kinda way) correct decision.
The Universe is a better place with Data in it, than B4 unfortunately for B4.
ffejpsycho I half agree with you. I do think it was incredibly selfless of B4 to agree to be overwritten, but I also understand Data's point of view. I don't care how much value I am to others. When I die I do not want to be copied. Besides I wouldn't be unique if people could just copy me like that. I can see both sides.
Good old of'en wrong Soong. I loved that episode when Soong and Data were talking about why humans like old stuff. That episode was a real tear-jerker along with the episode where Picard visited his brother in France.
Great video- I loved it Rick!
The Federation didn't exist yet in Enterprise, so they couldn't confiscate Arik Soong's work.