Flattest Shooting Cartridges by Caliber
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2021
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
Produced by: @red11media
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely. - Sport
I vote for the .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer. 4600fps with a 50 gr. 22 Bullet in a necked down 378 Weatherby case. Absolutely no drop for the first 400 yards.
lol because it vaporized right at the muzzle.
😂
I prefer the 303 British customised to take a 150gr .22 platinum tipped hollow point fps is OVER 9,000!
At 3 cm after the end of the barrel then it just tumbles
Why not!
@@prepperjonpnw6482 that gun doent exist and the 303 is a Pusey gun
Another OUTSTANDING video Ron. I haven't been at it as long as you have, but its comforting and validating when I hear someone with your years and miles of experience lines up with my own.
There are trade offs when going for the fastest, flattest shooting cartridge. You mentioned 2 of em. Barrel life and action/magazine length are bigguns. So is rifle weight/compactness.
When I was paying $8.00 @ pound for powder back in the late 70's it didn't bother me to shoot 76.5 gr of IMR4831 in my Ole. 300 mag. Nowadays with powder at $50.00 a pound (when you can find it) it hurts a little more. I'd much rather shoot about 1/2 that charge in a .260 Rem with one of the high BC bullets. Twice as many shots, a fraction of the recoil, muzzle blast, meat damage and a lighter package to pack around. Maybe I'm just gettin OLD.
Years ago a gun writer came up with a formula to determine the LF (Lethality Factor) of any give caliber round. I know at the time I had it formulated on a Excel spread sheet. I cant remember exactly but it consisted of the caliber, BC, SD and velocity calculated to give you the LF at all ranges and at which range the chosen cartridge drops below the LF
Love my .204 Ruger (CZ 527 Varmint). For a varmint rifle, coyotes (my record is just under 300 yards, on a coyote - (and it got hit HARD, spun around once and dropped) and smaller...hard to beat. The 40 grainers are close to the 55 grain 22-250's. I believe they (40 g .204's) actually surpass after or around 400 yards. Not knocking the 22-250 in any way, shape or form - it is an awesome caliber, bar none (I have one)! I just like my .204 more, mostly because I still have the sight picture (red mist, lol), unlike the 22-250! How rude...I almost forgot to thank Ron Spomer for all his hard work putting this together for us all, big thanks Ron, well done!
OK MY FRIENDS, This man, RON SPOMER, may be the biggest thing ALIVE right now. His take on the essentials puts him in the Legend Class right now. No one else with his gravitas is presenting the physics of the Art of Shooting as accurately and succinctly as he is, right now.
SUBBED to this Channel!
Great follow up of previous, flat shooting video.
In the comments someone mentioned the 218 Bee, it was my first center fired cartridge I’ve ever shot, I was 11 or 12, in ‘57 or ‘58. A neighbor took me target shooting, after some paper targets we shot pop cans full of water and saw them explode, it was awesome.
In ‘59 we moved from Ohio to northern MN, where I was loaned a 30-49 Krag- Jorgensen by our school bus driver and shot my first deer. Trajectory like a mortar, but at 30 yards or so it didn’t matter.
Love these series about cartridges!
I applaud you Ron for doing more than many. Your topics have a spin off education aspect that so many don’t realize as they first watch your posts. But if you can ultimately give someone deductive reasoning, it will carry them far in their understanding of things. Thanks Ron
Thanks for your insights, Michael.
Excellent video Ron! No nonsense and to the point.
My hunting rifle is just an old 1944 8MM Mauser with updated hand loads. Performs very well for what I use it for but it took quite a bit of tinkering to make that happen. Upgraded powder and lighter bullet weight has turned it into a real contender but after watching your video I think a good look at the 6.5X300 might be in order
I use a k98 Mauser my self for hunting
I was glad to see the .220 Swift rank as near flattest. So many today love the .22-250 (a fine caliber) and have forgotten the Swift. 240 Weatherby is another semi forgotten speedster. I like the 6mm-284. It is a near equal to the 240 Weatherby.
The 240 seems to be the Weatherby chambering which offers the smallest increase in velocity compared to the non-Weatherby rounds. I thought I read that it was the least popular of the WMs, except for the 224. Just an observation.
Largely because nobody chambers an off the shelf rifle for the swift anymore, and rarely do you see factory ammo for it either…..at least I never really do at my local stores. Kinda like the old 243 win vs 6 rem competition, though I do see 6 rem ammo from time to time, but 243 is everywhere….including my gun safe lol
Really good video sir. Being from the Northern Great Plains, a flat shooting round with plenty of zip is a big deal to a lot of us up here. Sometimes we need to temper that a little with a heavier slug, but flat shooting rounds are what we like. Really enjoyed the video. Thanks!
Started hunting with a 22-250 but graduated to a 264 win mag. Still 2 of my favorites to shoot with.
My dad was an extreme marksman and a natural shot with anything even a bow . I didn't inherit his abilities,and he wasn't the best instructor for the reason I think was something everyone had. He squirrel hunted with a 22 revolver and I never saw him miss. We never had a high power and I was going Elk hunting and had to ask him what to choose. He told me a .270 bolt.with iron sights . I bought a 1990 Remington model 700 synthetic and factory free floated. It came with a 3x9 Scope. He loved it , but said " Do you really need a Scope " ❓ . The gun is tapped for iron sights , but I knew I needed the scope. Before I went I shot no less than 100 rounds through it. There were four guys that all bought Wetherbys . Two 300 win mags and a 340. They weren't free floated and had wood stocks. My 270 was unmatched at 300 yards. When we got out ,we were told to sight in . I opened my case up and the guide said " Leave it in , but if hit an Elk empty it. One of their guns didn't hit paper at 50 yards and the other two needed to be adjusted. We were in the Beartooth canyon . I took my Elk at 500 yard's with a 150 grain nozzeler . The best pattern was a 130 boat tail,but I shot twenty 150s before I went. I had a military guide and had a lot of help judging the drop. We went for a head shot . The first shot it flinched and ran I put the next one on the body and hit the top of the heart. There was no wind and I was benched on a rock . When we feil dressed it I found my round. It was spread and inside the rib cage. A ballistic expert judged the range and said it actually hit a rib going in . Practicing helped but it was 75 % luck. Dad acted like he knew the 270 was good for that shot. It wasn't and I should've had a 7mm and I consider using the 270 reckless ,but is very capable and flat. We thought it dropped between 3-4 feet. The one I will say if you can hit without a scope good ,but not me. My guide though hit me after he saw it was hit ,and couldn't get back on sight. I never saw it drop . All in all though for cost of rounds and availability the 270 is unmatched so dad was right. He was one of Patton's hand picked battle weary men . He was put in charge of a gun squad to rescue the 101 st . He made it within a day and a half to breaking into Bastogne. He also previous made it through the Hedge row country. He passed on a Thompson and had a lot of faith in the M1 but did pickup a 1911 from a fallen soldier.Thats probably why he wasn't that interested in big game hunting. No questioning his pick of calibers right or wrong. 😎
Model 70 , 270, my rifle for 50 yrs.👍
I know it's a wildcat round but the 6/284 was what my father Dave Nichols shot for 30 years after leaving big bore behind in match bench rest. The velocity Sq x similar mass means it carries a straight flat and powerful punch for a very long distance. Especially when compared with more mass and less velocity. We chronograph captured speeds above 4700 most times. Wish he was alive today, so much more I would love to have gotten to learn from him. He'd just begun to play with 6.5. Being retired he had nothing better to do than fool around with guns to shot very long range. That and build the gun he gave away every year at the SD match every fall.
@@jimburnsjr. We are comprised of the stains of our lives. Some are big, some deep, some light, some dark, mostly a mix of all. People ask me why I don't have pictures or video of events or items. Because I was busy living it. It's forever a stain on me that no other can change or take. Be present. When asked what the old man would do different when looking back upon life. He said I was busy working when all the firsts happened. The first word, first steps, first girlfriend, first heartache. Be present.
I love these comparisons. Great information and discussion. I’d like to see a couple factors covered in a segment like this. One factor of information would be how much drop is reduced in less air density in Dense Altitude. Another factor to cover would be the highest Ballistic Coefficient in each caliber. I really love watching your videos. Thank you for all the hard work.
That's what I'd like to know is the best BC out there. I have the 22-250 which is close to that 220 swift, and a 7mm STW which is really close to that 7mm RUM, and when you figure in hand loading it can be really fun no doubt.
The affect air has upon a bullet is 80 times greater than the affect of gravity on the bullet. Things are not really cut and dried with the bc of a bullet. Center of gravity and largely center of pressure have a lot to do with the bc which is mostly an educated guess comparison as far as I can tell. Even the rings around a solid bullet placed there to reduce barrel friction have an affect on air resistance. External ballistics is an interesting study and the more I study it the more I realize how little I truly know. I do know the faster a bullet goes the faster it slows down which give reason to the idea that adding mass creates better long range ballistics. At some point a slower heavier bullet will surpass the velocity of a smaller faster bullet in the flight of both bullets.
I'm surprised the Weatherby 30-378 didn't beat the 300 rum
Thanks Ron, excellent run down 👍
It’s amazing how old some of these caliber’s are and how well they have stayed on top. It’s always been the 257 Wby for me and Roy!
Roy was NOT a nice man, he got his start clearing a Old gun smith out of his custom rifles, he slapped the name Weatherby on thr old man's work. -- pretty shady guy... I own A LOT of guns, none have the name Weatherby on them.
Great review Ron, thanks for all the research and taking the time to produce this, love learning about the "flat" shooters!
Liked and shared.
I am by no means a long-range sniper kinda shooter, but i find this very intresting! Thanks, you've given me something to think about :-)
Greetings, T.
Ron, great job once again. thank you.
Thank you Ron for a video high on facts and low on BS. I like how you sum up at the end in that velocity is not everything when you consider what type of shooting you are going to do.
First new rifle I ever purchased was a 264 win mag in 1982, every rifle since then has been a compromise! Currently I shoot a 6.5prc, great cartridge and not a barrel burner. Btw, I bought a 700 classic in 220 swift when it came out in 1993, still have it, they don't call it the king of varmint cartridges for nothing.
Good video, keep them coming.
Swift is awesome! Reload. Keep your velocity around 3700. Seat a graphiite wad behind your bullet. My heavy barrel M-77 has 1000's rnds. still shoots!
@@curlyyoder 38.0gr imr4064 = 3750fps with a 55gr v-max electrocutes coyotes
Great job on this video. Endless possibilities: Bullet Weight segregation, Wind deflection, recoil by bullet weight....etc.
Thank you for this great comparison. Fascinating! 😎👍
Glad you mentioned the 7mm RUM. When I tell someone it’s as flat or flatter than a 22-250 they don’t want to believe it but your data backs it up. I started reading about this cartridge before they came out and shooting one about 6 months before you could buy one. RCBS had the dies out a year in advance and I had my Mod. 700 7mm re-chamber for it. There was no brass out yet so most of my brass still says 300 RUM on the end. I originally wanted to use something like a Barnes or Berger 140 gr. but the solid bullets are so long they have to seated WAY back in the case in order to fit in the magazine, so I end up with 139gr Hornady Boat tail and my early 70’s 700 BDL loves them. I called Hodgdon to see if I could get an OCL and happen to get a technician that had just finished working on loads for the 7 RUM just days earlier, within two days I had sheets data and a handy little packet reloading manual in my hand. I worked the loads up to around 3600 FPS. but backed them off to a little over 3500 using H870 . I don’t shoot it much (except for hunting deer size animals) for reasons you mentioned and H870 is no longer available so I use what I have sparingly. I once shot a trotting mule deer at 150 yards with it and it seemed like the instant I pulled the trigger he hit a trip wire. That little bullet passed clear through both shoulders and only left a half dollar size hole on the far side.
I love my 7mm-300 Norma mag with 162 gr. Hornady bullet. MV-3184, BC-.627, 300yd-8, 500yd-34.9, 1000yd-218.2. Zero at 100yd with accuracy load ( not full powder charge). Great video! Thanks for the range of info.
Why that big? Where do you stop? A Stinger missle? 22/250 is king of flat shooters. No it won’t knock down an elk. But you want to leave some meat on the bone.
Excellent presentation. I have no desire to feel the pain of a 6.5-300 Weatherby...lol
I enjoy your show it gets me to reading and learning and reinforcing my own knowledge and looking at cartridges and firearms I’m interested in .
Have already watched this video , but it was so entertaining and informative , I wanted to watch it again!! 👍❤️👍
Thank You Ron. I'm of the same mind as you on the better bc bullets. When you lean your mind to the idea of what Jim charmichal described as a train. The longer bullet bushes the same amount of air around its nose as the shorter lighter bullet. The longer heavier bullet loses nothing in wind resistance but gains more energy at the same velocity, and is carried further down range because of that factor. And that is bc.
6mm. The king.
30-378 has the win in my reloading manual for the 30s. You are a class act!!
yes it does sir
Look at 300 Raptor.
@@kukamungaphobia924I think this is S.A.M.I. cartridges only.
Just found your site and listened to a few presentations. Your knowledge appears to be very, very good. I cannot imagine the amount of time, etc you spend to achieve this knowledge. However, what really surprised me is the presentation. Wow! I have been a collector of WW1 & ww2 firearms for a long time. I also have collected a few more modern firearms such as Winchester model .348, 100 and 88 just as examples. Will certainly be tuning again. Thank you very much.
Well spoken, wonderful voice, easy to follow, quality audio, good look, educational, fun to watch...bravo sir, bravo.
Great video, I love the .257 weatherby for deer size and the 7mm rum for elk size those are my go to rounds.
If you are actually taking long shots the 7mm rum is good but if you are closer range, I found all you get is pin holes, little to no blood, and a dead deer (or elk). If it doesn't drop right where you shoot it, it can make for difficult tracking. My brother used to shoot a 7rum for whitetail but the longest shot was typically 200 yards, killed everything he ever shot but hardly ever left blood.
I love the 257 though.
@@brianatkinson8164 the lack of blood is an issue with the 257 as well I run 110 grain acubonds And shot over a dozen whitetail sika and axis and there is no blood a pinhole shot your luck yo find two drops where the animal is laying. The lungs and heart are jelly and the whole chest cavity is full of congealed jello from the velocity and energy dump but there is no exterminator blood to track I’ve yet to have one go more than 50 yards they normally drop on the spot but an off shot on a quartering animal that doesn’t go through both lungs and heart would present a problem from a tracking perspective.
22-250 and 220 Swift are 2 of my favorites
Yes and 243
@@ckryegrass11 yes can't forget the 243 that's what my wife's deer hunts with and what my daughter is gonna be getting for deer hunting this year
I'm ready to go to bed, and this video from Ron pops up. I'll watch it and sleep better. Ahhh....
Sometimes the challenge of trying to get ammo for some of these not so popular calibers is also a decider on what rifle to get. Awesome video very informative 👍
Really liked this, I always wanted a 264 Win mag. And have one now. I understand that they have been outdone now. I have shot a 243 Winchester for deer since I was 12. I have found in my reloading that either one of these will push a bullet at 3200-3300 fps and most of the time if you push an 80gr 243 or a 100gr 264 bullet much over 3400 with smaller bullets I start to lose accuracy.
264 win mag. Good choice. If only that was supported more than the inferior 6.5creed.
My dad used to shoot one, then he went to a 257 wby but still always loved his 264.
My father got me hooked early on to the 22-250, my grandpa introduced me to the 7mm mag…I’ve been shooting it for years
Agree with the 22-250 and also love the 25-06
Recently shot my brother's 22-250 rem. It was really fun, especially since the rifle was so accurate. Also shot his .223 which was also accurate af. The ammo was cheaper too...
That 7 mag is a killer. No tracking if you shoot straight. 👍👍👍👌👌👌
The 22-250 I speak about everytime i talk gun talk
Thank you for another awesome video👍
Great discussion on flat shooting rounds. Some surprising numbers. Thank you.
I’ll always be partial to my 7mm Mauser. With modern bullets, they are high velocity and have always had a flat trajectory. 20 inch drop at 400 yards isn’t too shabby.
My uncle has an 8mm Mauser that my grandfather brought home from WWII and he loads at home. He loves that thing!
I like your choice. I have a couple hand made 7x57's one of which is stamped .275 Rigby. GunBlue 490 says the sectional density and the velocity of the bullet are the important things to consider. The 7x57 has the right sectional densities for great penetration and the velocity sweet spot is from say 2700 to 2900 fps. I have harvested to very large elk with a 7x57. When Mauser developed it he got it right and that 98 action is the daddy of all good actions.
Awesome
I always wanted more firearms and reloading equipment since I first seen Hunters Catalogs in early 70's. I was in love them! Must have been destiny, but,others derailed my train.
4:44 "I invite you to send one in if you know it" I LOVED how your voice caught when you said this, knowing what was going to happen LMAO You Sir are a very brave man! Thanks for all your info, it is great to see, hear and learn from you.
My Dad made his own sporting rifles. He sporterized a WWII Mauser action for a .284. He chose the .284 because it was a flat shooting round. He got the most kills out of all the hunters in our party.
Ruining a finite resource
@@lmaolmoo4147 Nope. It's the bolt action that counts. We call it an improvement on existing technology.
Great discussion Ron, I love talking ballistics since I load my own. Haven't bought factory ammo for years. My love for speed exploded when I bought my Savage/Stevens 22-250 and absolutely fell in love with it. My fastest load recipe came right of the back of a jug of Hodgdon Varget. Calls for 38.5 grains of powder with a 40gr. Nosler ballistic tip. My actual 3 shot string through the Chrono was 4,375 fps. That is SMOKIN!! FAST. 🔥😉
Of course I don't shoot that load very often for the reasons you mentioned about barrel burnout. I mainly only use it for varmint hunting coyotes, but man it sure will reach out there and touch a coyote @300 yd plus with nearly zero bullet drop and will back flip a coyote like it was hit by lightning. I also load for .223,.243, .270, .35 Rem, and 45/70 plus a few other calibers.
I I love how even though you had done a review, your pride doesn't get in the way of a re-visit. Awesome stuff!!! Wish the 7mm weatherby got a mention, I may have a soft spot for it.
Been shooting a 22-250 and a 2506 for 40 years I won't give either one of them up
Definitely fun to look at. There's 2 guns I don't have, but wish I do. One is the 220 swift, the other is the 338 Lapua Mag. Even though the 338 isn't the fastest, it can get out there. Great video!
So, does that mean you have all of the others?
fun fact they necked the lapua down to 30 cal too. really wonder what the case could do in 7mm or 6.5 form
Before you buy that lupua try a 338 rum both rounds are almost identical but owning both I find the ,338 RUM a little more accurate. A 180 grain bullet smokes with 3800 at the muzzle
This is fantastic, Ron, thanks so much mate.
I have a Ruger .220 Swift - it’s a brilliant little rifle - heavy barrel and hits like a freight train. Really good to know the projectile drop at those distances.
I realised that anything I’ve hit around the 400-500 yard mark has been fairly lucky!! 3 1/2 foot drop at 500 yards really surprised me.
I reckon I’ll be hitting a few more feral pests now.
Blessings pal
.220 Swift ..... ohh heck yes , huge Thumbs-Up !! 🙂👍
@@waylonmccrae3546 such an amazing little round eh! So quick through the air and hits so hard!
@@Revheadrev I'm a big fan of .222 , .22-250 , .22 Hornet , etc. but that .220 Swift is a friggin' Lightning Bolt !! 😉👍
Great video Sir! I don't know the rifle game like I know the archery game. But I love learning new things.
I think hot rod cartridges are cool, even if I don't really shoot them. And I love the constant development by companies pushing the envelope to get as much juice out of em. Fun times to live in.
I’ve have been in a relationship with the 220 Swift since I was 8 years old , that’s going on 60 years ago . I grew up mostly in the hills of VIRIGINA and loved shooting groundhogs . What I loved about the Swift was the fact that the Whistle Pig was dead before he heard the shot … I could go on another this little caliber for an hour . I have won several bets with people with 22-250 about the speed of it . I’ll be following you now that I have seen some of your videos. I HAD a 7RUM till I allowed my brother to talk me out of it , big mistake .lol
You seem to be very knowledgeable, do you have any experience with a .204 Ruger? Cheers...
I have several 22.250's love them.....now your .220 swift...is that the same as a
.22hornet? If so which is faster?
back when i use to do a lot of comp shooting with my 22-250AI pushing a 55gr pill 3800fps the barrels would last about 6000 round before it was to degraded for comp use had one machined open and found that about 1/2 the rifling was gone and looked like charred wood the last 50mm of the barrel looked pristine. i did get a load that was pushing a 55gr vmax at 4007fps but the 1-10 barrel was making them pop at about 100M that was with HBN coated projectiles in a 28" pac-nor polygonal rifled barrel speed found by using a magnetospeed chrony
Ron. Just got my 28 Nosler a month ago. Found a load by tinkering. Not max charge. 160 grain SPEER btsp 3404fps. H1000 83.5 grains but with Remington 9 1/5m primers. Shoots .476 group 4 shots @100 yards. Christian Arms Mesa 26".
Love the channel. Thank you. Agree on bullet weights on range. I choose the SPEER due to I'm hunting with it. Just love that Speer btsp for hunting. Not sold on the ELDx.
Sir your plain spoken unpretentious videos are a refreshing change from all the vainglorious multi-sponsored, product endorsing rubbish which is currently overwhelming the internet. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to produce these entertaining and educating videos. Warmest regards from Scotland.
I am a long distance bench rest shooter and I have won more matches with a 30 cal 215 grain very high BC projectile than a 180 grain faster projectile with a lower BC.
1 in 9 twist 30 cal 26inch 100 thou off the lands federal gold match primers consistent powder
High bc berger 220g vld do the trick can't beat that 300
A 30 cal what? 30-06, 300wm? What cal you shooting?
@@tomserbaducci8559 Weatherby 300. Norma 300.
Good information, with a concise and an enjoyable video. Thank you, Ron :)
Glad you enjoyed it
A good review about velocity and ballistic coefficient. I think there has to be a consideration of muzzle and terminal energy. That requires a larger mass projectile. The low mass projectiles are great for shooting paper, not so much for dangerous animals.
Love this! Now can you do a video on the cartridges with the lowest wind deflection per caliber? I think that would be a more applicable video to long range hunting. Flat shooting with the longest point blank range isn’t as important with today’s riflescope and turrets.
It's on our calendar, Richard. Great minds think alike, eh? Thanks!
If you're using the best 6.5mm bullet in every 6.5cal cartridge...velocity should still win. I would think the 6.5 PRC would beat the 6.5CM or 260rem. 6.5-06 has about the same powder capacity as the PRC. The old 264 win mag should reach out there though. The winner might be the 26 Nosler or 6.5-300. There's one thing most hunters don't like though. The more powder you load, the longer the barrel needs to be.
Respectfully, I think MPBR is still super important and relevant to most hunters even if they think otherwise. Most folks don’t shoot enough to make turrets and anything more than reasonable bullet drop ethical. I think it’s as important as ever if not more important!
@@phild9813
I agree MPBR. In my area a 400 yard shot is rare but does happen. Longer distance is very rare, but its according to where you hunt. I set to Max Point Blank Range in deer season for years. Bumping 400 yards, 365 or 8 can't remember. It's not only simpler, it's faster. Hang a ribbon for wind and range at your max. Hold dead on for drop on anything between you and max. Ranging and dialing takes time. With that all said, wind is a bigger issue beyond 400 yards for light calibers and 600 for heavier. Drop is relatively constant once you have your dopes figured. Wind on the other hand is forever changing at least two points between you and your target. Most know this.
Flat shooting doesn't always equate to bucking the wind good. Where I will take the 308 Winchester over the 220 Swift.
Great job Ron!
Keep'em coming!
That would require an examination of many bullets per calibre @ velocity. By that I mean culling the worst of ten really good bullets by calibre and coefficient to get to five. The best charichteristics of each should be measured to the point where you have two distinct winners in the class and each of the two has a characteristic that stands out. Like penetration at specified velocity and range Etc. Rules and parameters should be set up to prevent manufacturers from coming up with a new type of (Magnum) syndrome like they caused in the 60's and 70's-80's
Great video 👍. This is a much clearer approach than pt1. I'll be looking forward to the windage comparison. That 6.5x300 is a smoking hot round for sure. I am confused a bit about the bullet selections though. I see ammo offered from 127gr-156gr. I would think something in the 160-170 range (maybe heavier) would be more appropriate. Although barrel life or chamber design might not support that.
Longer,heavier bullet shouldn't change bl. life. That's mainly heat issue.Lots of powder, lots of flame temp at the throat, lots of throat erosion. Not sure any useable twist could stabilize a 170-gr. .264. Berger's 153.5 grain already requires 1:7 twist.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors my thinking is that a longer heavier bullet would create more friction and move slower, causing the flame front to remain in the throat area for longer. But that is just speculation on my part. I could be completely wrong.
@@ruthlessone3khere’s the bottom-line, bullets in the 140 grain arena deliver best performance from .264 chambering. Thing is the barrel life is very short, less than 500 rounds for 1 MOA performance at 1000 yards as proven by High Master Classification Shooters competing with the 6.5/284 in NRA Long-Range Competition.
Thanks Ron. Great video.
Fascinating!!!
The .308 Norma Magnum (7.62×65mmBR) cartridge was created by Nils Kvale at Norma, Sweden
Good video! Thank you Ron. I own a .300 RUM and it really is a super speed flat shooting. 30 cal cartridge but commercially there is one caliber that will beat the 300 RUM is the 30-378 wby and as for the beast of beasts .30 cals, there is Lazzeroni here in my home state of AZ. The 7.82 mm Warbird and it is very rare and most likely a shooter would have to finance a box of 20 rounds of ammo. These are custom rifles and ammo.
I'm a Lazzeroni enjoyer, I've got 2. A 7.21 Firebird, and a 7.82 Warbird.
Realistically you Have to hand load them, or else your paying $7-$8 a round. But many judge a cartridge by its factory loads.
And most of Lazzeroni's ammo until recently only went up to the older 180 grain Nosler accubond. Now for hunting, this is fine. I mean even that old discounted version of the 180 accubond is going to be above 1,500ft.lbf of energy out past 1,000 yards, and you have to be careful with your bullet selection(his lineup ammo was 150-180 grain, and about the sturdiest bullets out their)as some rounds won't hold together on impact at closer ranges, just Essentially Exploding on impact. But until literally a few months ago, that was your best round out the factory. But Super longrange target shooting has taken off in the last decade, and with the newer high BC bullets the Warbird didn't make much sense with its antiquated factory ammo options. He finally came around to 212gr ELD-X very recently.
While I've been reloading in various 200s and 225 Match for years, I'm hoping his move to heavier higher BC Rounds straight from the box will bring a new wave of interest towards his cartridges.
With a 225 Match in my Lazzeroni I hung a stopsign at the 2000 yard post, then backed up the hill to the furthest line of sight at 2,410 and hit it on 3rd attempt.
I still have the stopsign.
People don't realize, this thing can stay truckin' (supersonic) further than a .338 lapua best load vs best load.
@Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin Amazing cartridge and yes if a person does not load their own rounds, it will be extremely costly. A round with this level of power would have to be fine tuned for that specific rifle. I also have been hand loading all of my calibers for over 30 years.
@@rumsin300 yea, ladder testing to the accuracy node is pretty important, with something you plan on shooting long range. But its common for people to buy like a weatherby or 300 RUM, and only use factory ammo, a simple ×8 scope with no turrets, and never even shoot beyond 200 yards...
Its like...Why buy something literally designed specifically for longrange hunting or general longrange shooting, only to use it as if it were a simple model 70 .308 from the 60s?
Lazzaroni is the Bugatti of rifles
Ron I really enjoy your videos, inciteful and alwatys that dash of fun 😊
Ron I enjoy and appreciate your topics and how much you've taught me. I stopped hunting years ago but still enjoy shooting and firearms , learning or talking about.
This might stir up a hornets nest and welcome all respectable replies. I got into long range precisely shooting after retiring and while enjoy it must admit the long range and precision part is improving but still a work in progress.
Bullet drop and external ballistics is a subject that can vary depending on who you listen to. This is something interesting and I ll share.
If it were possible to line up 10 rifles in different calibers or bullet weights exactly and could fire all at once and drop a bullet from the height of those barrels all of them would hit the ground at same time. They wouldn't hit at same distance the ones with faster MV and BC would travel farther because they cover more distance in same time but still gravity pulls the same even the bullet dropped straight down.
Think on that and give reply if disagree.
Im also a competitive long distance shooter........also 22 long rifle 50 yards. So something is missing here ??? Ive shot a many a rifle in my day ! But........ nearly all of them have the same bullet drop at 300/ 400/ 500 / 600 yards. With a 200 zero 300 yards 7 inches 400 yards 14 inches 500 yards 35 inches 600 yards 72 inches.
So......what am I missing here ? Every rifle and even bullet / powder load is almost the same relating to bullet drop. So where does this " flat shooting " come into play ???
This is pretty neat. As for the relationship of declined performance in relation to velocity and BC the only thing ive heard of involves the retention of velocity. A higher BC in theory retains velocity better and a higher BC typically corresponds to higher grain rounds. Heavier bullets are harder to get to a higher velocity but will retain its velocity over a longer range. A lighter round can be projected faster but can't retain the speed. The point that it becomes important is 1125fps or the speed of sound. All rounds become unstable through that transition until the bullet has enough weight to maintain stability through that turbulence.
I think I got all that right. 🤔 So a lighter round may be faster at the muzzle and be flatter at close range but will lose velocity quickly. A heavier round may drop more initially but retain its velocity better and be flatter shooting over a longer distance.
There's also a 97% chance that I have no idea what I'm talking about. 👋
Ur right on the money
@@CalebBerman All true, However, you failed to answer the ultimate burning question. Which caliber does God prefer? .375 H&H or .338 Win Mag. Or does he use his own wildcat? If so, you've got to tell us what it is!!!! Iam dying to know! On second thought, at that point, I'll probably be able to ask him personally.
God has the lighting round
Not all rounds
Correct.
Can I ask what brand is that button up shirt?
The 264 Winchester Magnum is a good performer . It drips 16 inches at 450 yards with a Remington 140 grain SPCLBT . I have had mine since 1967 and load them myself .
Great presentation and I enjoyed your enthusiasm for "fast"! As you say, flatter trajectory is a variable that depends on range; under 200 yds lighter projectiles perform well but between 500 - 900 yds the projectile weight usually needs to come up and depending on BC the twist rate to match. I have seen projectiles disintegrate in a puff of dust when the velocity pushes them to 350,000 RPM ...so the real "magic" is to match the BC, MV and stability for a variety of ranges. Let's try to put a "blanket" of say 1/2 MOA five shot group in the equation to be polite; the biggest difficulty I find with high MV is copper fouling deterioration of accuracy.
Heavier bullets do drop more, but they're also less sensitive to gusts of wind.
Well delivered information Ron! Shooters need to be aware of the potential differences each firearm can have over the published ballistic tables.
Only buy chrographing, or physically plotting impact points on targets will give the shooter definitive information to dependably work with.
I used to be the die hard high velocity shooter, but now find much more satisfaction from big, slower bullets. Enjoy them both, but find myself shooting milder recoiling firearms/calibers predominantly.
If the 30-378 Weatherby has more case volume than the 300 Remington ultra mag and sells a 28" barrel which would be faster then the 26" barrel of the 300 Remington ultra mag.
I was gonna say 30-378 is the fastest 30 caliber commercial in the world how could it not be the flattest
30-378 Weatherby edges out the 300rum
@@guycarlton53 yep
I think its because the Weatherby case cartridge shooters are all CNN/MSNBC viewers so we don't even acknowledge that group. :)
@@brokenchickenleg I understand there not as popular as 308 rounds you probably shoot in your ar 10 drinking Busch light but for people who actually look at ballistics weatherby does have the fastest shooting 24 caliber 25 caliber and 30 caliber and I’m not sure how that makes weatherby fans democrats but okay :)
Most Excellent!
First time watcher. And subscriber. Alot of good info.
P O Ackley wrote in one of his books if he had to choose one rifle and forsake all the others, he would choose the 220 swift. Not bad for a cartridge introduced in 1935.
After his elephant hunting, WMD Bell retired to his estate in Scotland. Instead of his beloved 7mm, he chose a 220 Swift to use as his deerstalking rifle until he passed away. 👍
I really like your discussion and i am so glad that i found your channel. You probably covered this already, but what about the 6.5x55 swedish mauser? I absolutely love what a sweet round that is and what a great overall round. I would love your view on it. Thanks.
There are actually two Seeds. One is loaded to safe pressure for the old rifles and then there is the one for modern rifles. Be careful.
Anyway I think half the enthusiasm for the new stuff in 6.5 is the cool names they cooked up for them. Sniper movies and all that. That Sweede is very close in performance to the new stuff as a practical matter.
@@ohiofarmer5918 Thank you for replying. My dad took a old swedish mauser and converted it into a sport rifle and I fell in love with it. I love the 6.5x55 swedish round because it does shoot so flat. I know there are so many other 6.5 rounds out there, but I love this round over so many others that I have used in the past. Thank you for the information.
It's not just BC and MV that determine how flat the bullet is, but it's also the spin rate (barrel twist, rifling, whatever you might know it as), and bullet weight.
Thanks Ron
Whenever you hear someone talk about barrel burnout in a big game hunting rifle, rest assured they’re a total blowhard. Thanks for confirming that Ron. Gets brought up way too much by a bunch of folks who have never burned out a barrel and never will-their barrels outlive them every time.
Probably, Ric, probably. Except for high volume rodent shooters.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors just wanted to mention the very scarce and unfortunately forgotten real champion of all rounds to this date because it is a blast (which I will revisit/resurrect at some point)!The said round was both made and rejected in 1942 and the reason for rejection was that the test shooter was literally killed by the immense amount of recoil: it's recoil impulse is about 10-12 times that of the .50BMG(!!!).It is Bloom AT-rifle project and it's crazy chambering of 14.5×148mm!Powder charge was more than two ounces (62 grams to be exact-it's two and a quarter ounces) of the best gunpowder and it propelled the giant BS-41 projectile which was exactly the same as the one that already was produced for 14.5×114mm and was weighting a whopping 1052 grain.. When was fired from the Bloom AT-rifle prototype it had the astonishing muzzle velocity of 5200 fps and since among all the small arms ordnance bullets the BS-41 projectile has the best B.C.-this makes it the flattest of all!
I never use max loads in any of my rifles. I tend to find my rifles' sweet spot by using different bullet weights, powder/powder weight ans seating depth combinations until I get a consistent accurate load (enough for my needs). This is usually about 70-80% of max velocity. Once found, I then use only that combination for that particular rifle. I've found this is an economical approach to hand loading across my range of rifles. 👍
@@idleonlooker1078 I generally consider myself as a firearm engineer and designer I guess and one of my main goals is achieving the maximum velocity not just for the firearm and/or caliber but for the propellant itself and then I begin taking care of the rest of the parameters like accuracy, cost, and everything else! Because it is the key to actually making the real game changer for me in future! It is because at the vastly elevated velocity levels you get a number of interesting effects with such a firearm that really turn it into a massively effective weapon!Two of them that are the most important are Gerlich effect and the effect of ablative hydroschock.Both of them start to take place when you get above 4000 fps:Gerlich effect does massively increase your AP capabilities with any type of bullets (besides when you get to above 5500 fps-you start getting a better penetration on armor type steels like AR-500 with your FMJ bullets than you get from an AP bullet at the same velocity!)-so I had an experiment where I managed to achieve as huge of a velocity as 9300 Fps(using an inconventional propellant obviously! Nothing mysterious though: just a granulated PETN)-with regular German 8mm bullets-AP and FMJ types and the results were very interesting! At 5500 both of them went through 2" of AR-550 but only FMJ made it through 2.5" in this case!And as for effectiveness against living tissues-the ablative hydroschock caused an instant transition of all the water that was directly in it's path from liquid to plasma which created an explosion inside of the whole thing so if it would have hit a person-survival would have been nearly impossible for him even if it hit the person's foot plus it would have sent shrapnel obviously and so might have injured or even killed whoever would have been standing next to him at that point! So the velocity is the key anyway!
@@johnsheppard1476 Your detailed knowledge of those higher velocities far exceeds mine. But as a civilian hunter I've never had the desire (or need) to go beyond what I require to achieve my immediate objective: accurate shot placement to ensure a quick humane kill on game out to 300yds. I am interested, though, by your experimentation and results at those very high velocities. Though I cannot immediately see any application for it in a purely civilian hunting arena, I guess in military circles your research would have a wide interest in application - especially in drilling through armour plate!! (I wonder if in that case, the bullet causes spall?) Yours is a very interesting post, and if you have any sites/info where I could learn more, it would be appreciated. Thanks! 👍
I like the 7mms. You get a lot of options for what projectile you want to use, they really split the difference between the light stuff in the heavy stuff in terms of range. I think you really need to be a superhuman, with some superhuman glass, to push the range of some of these 30 to 35 caliber over 200 grain bullets. Particularly when you consider the speed you really got to push them to get the most out of them. I just think 7 mm is a holistic organic choice in that way, aligned with the capabilities of peak human focus. As an added bonus, most of them have a accuracy node that will give your rifle barrels at least 1000 rounds. To that end, 28 Nosler I think is King of the Heap. You can get the most out of your 7 mm projectiles while still fitting in normal length magazines.
The 7x61 Sharp and Hart is still a popular cartridge in my home country, Namibia. Norma doesn't make the ammo anymore, so you have to reload yourself. But on the open Namib desert, you often have to shoot at 500 m. And a Springbok isn't that big.
Should have many more subscribers. Very informative & always interesting
thanks much for getting back to me, good job. GODSPEED
Finally someone who acknowledges the 7mm RUM. I have been using one for about 7 years, and Love it. Every deer I shot goes down, instantly. As you mentioned it is a very flat shooting round, but unless you have a long barrel, it is difficult to get all of the performance you can, a 26in barrel is not long enough. Because this cartridge is so over bore, i stick with long 180 gr Bergers. This bullet uses up some of that powder capacity which is what I want since i only have a 26in barrwl on my factory Remington 700. My project gun will be putting a 30 in barrel on my 7mm RUM. Thank you for the honest info you have on your videos.
Tony
Yeah I think that the 28 Nosler should have won in this comparison because like you said unless you have a really long 26+ inch barrel those velocities are hard to get. With the Nosler it will push the same bullet faster with a shorter barrel but gets edged out if you start getting into longer custom barrels. The 30-378 is also faster than than the RUM.
I love the 7mm ultra mag. Got several buck with it. My best shot was at 393 confirmed yards.
Be quiet we don’t want everyone having a 7mm RUM! If you have played firearms all your life and actually use them to shoot game you will find those that love a 22/250 will love the 7mm Rum for all the bigger game! I’ve had lots of calibres in my life but 22LR, 22/250,7mmRUM and a 12ga shot gun is a very useful mix! 💯👍🏼👌🏼🇦🇺
So I understand why the Cheytac rounds weren’t included in this particular video. Your criteria wouldn’t have put them in there. But I will say, if you’re including BC into the mix, these will be some of the highest on the list. The .408 at ~0.94 and the .375 at ~.98 to ~.99. If you’re looking at unreasonably long range, and you need a bullet to fly reliably through the air, it would be hard to beat these. If you’re limiting yourself to 1000 yards, then you have no real need for these rounds, especially with how hard they are to get and how expensive they are. But if you’re looking to hit a mile or more, these are some of the flattest shooting rounds out there simply because of how efficiently they cut through the air as they travel.
Just my 2 cents. Great video. I’ll have to start looking into the ultra mags sometime. Maybe even pick something up that shoots them haha
What reason did he provide?
Cheytac would blow all these others away.
Flattest is flattest. Why ignore the best and then call it the best?
In 1975, I purchased a Browning BAR in 7mm REM Mag. I had been a 30.06 user for about 6 years. The new gun amazed me in its flatness compared to my trusty 30.06. What’s more, retained energy was excellent. It was my big game gun of choice, using my own recipes of hand-loads. The balance of velocity, bullet weight, and exemplary BC made it a winning combination. The common wisdom of the day steered me away from the Weatherby 7mm. I’m sure it was even better!
@Anonbin Arymouse .. You should get opinions from other 7mm users. I haven’t purchased 7mm ammo for years. It was normally very common and highly available, but theses days, I’m not sure about availability. Look at the ballistic tables and shooting articles for recommendations regarding 7mm bullet weights AP for various game. I used mine only for deer and elk. I used 162 grain bullets almost exclusively.
Great fun info- superb lighting set-up also👍
Thanks John.
Ron, Very informative overall. Did you ever respond to the several subsequent queries regarding the 30-378 Wby Mag trumping the 300 RUM?
Indeed, 4200fps nozler ballistic tipped Weatherby ammo
Hi Ron, I'm unaware if you have seen Gunblue490's channel. It's very informative and I consider it to be one of the best gun channels on CZcams, as it covers material that relates to proper gun usage and bullet information. I'd think you'd enjoy it very much. Anyways thanks again Ron for an awesome video. Heck, I enjoy these videos so much I might have to become a patreon.
I also watch Gunblue490, great channel, very informative!
I'd buy both a cold beer.
Yes, I've seen a few of Gun Blue. The gentleman seems strong on experience, knowledge, and common sense.
Gunblue490's channel reminds me of sitting around listening to my Grandfather and his brothers. Very knowledgeable person.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors 27 Nosler wins, Same recall as the 7mm RM but much flatter. Why doesn't any body make it?
After tacking nots on All the riffens you had listed, I cam to the conclushen that 'Rifel Man ' had it rit! 30-0-30! 🤣🤣👏👏
Ron you are a Legend, thanks for all your work.
I appreciate that. Thanks for listening.
6.5-300 WBY with a 625BC 143gr bullet will shoot way out there really fast. 7 RUM is a beast too, but you'd need a 160gr bullet to match the BC of the 143gr in 6.5. I'd like to see what some ultra long range shooters can do with the 6.5-300. If it was that great they'd probably be using it instead of a 338 Edge or 338 Lapua. Interesting video Ron. Thanks.
It’s not that great. It would be, if all they were concerned with was velocity, but considering that velocity becomes far less important than BC now that we have rangefinders and ballistic reticles, it’s a good bet they’ll stick with the higher BC heavier bullets of the 338s vs the 6.5 you mentioned
416 barret 425g mtac rounds seem to be the top of hill as far as I can tell.
@@ricflair2779😊😊
Great video series, now how about the most efficient cartridge - the ones that do the most with the least powder.
Interesting idea, Stan. Not sure how I'd set the parameters on that. How do we define do the most? We do know that with powder volume vs. bore diameter and bullet mass we reach a point of diminishing returns. A 10% increase in powder no longer nets a significant gain in velocity. How to find the sweet spot... Hmmm.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I think an example in this could be 35Whelan vs 30-06. Same case yet the 35 has about the same speed even with a bit heavier bullet with a higher sectional density. There are so many variables and like you said different reloading manuals have different numbers so if I could check a few more I might find what I said above not as accurate a statement.
I actually did this a bit ago, I have a whole spreadsheet of data. My parameters were KE per grain of powder. There's a few new cartridges around now, but when I did the calculations the winner was a 7mm-08.
@@Freezer003 can you post a link to the spreadsheet?
I would think rather than grains of powder the best measure of hunting cartridge efficiency would be recoil over BC, with a lower product being the better measure like a golf score. Doing some quick math for a few common hunting calibers 6.5 Creedmoor edged out 243 Win for most bang for the buck efficiency. You could also use this to compare different loads within a single caliber. RIP Chuck Hawks!
Loved this one
I love my 22-250ai so i find myself taking it out the most just a fun and lovely round to shoot
Makes me wish I didn't sell my 6.5 x 300 Weatherby, though I couldn't find ammo and thought it wouldn't be as good as a 300 for hunting particularly with k.e.
Most hunting will stay inside 500yds anyway so any common round will work fine.
@@darrengarcia4937 absolutely, I am use to 40 and under.
Good video Ron! Theres just something fun about talking cartridges.
God Bless!
We haven't been able to keep up with new caliber development for three generations in my family cause it's the American way. I recall when my father purchased a Winchester Model 70 in 264 Win Mag.. because it was the flattest shooting rifle at the time. Then came the 7mm Rem mag., shortly thereafter.. But the .264 shoots like a dream..
Just noticed a similar comment as mine several month older. That is, I believe we overlooked the Lazzeroni cartridges. For example, the 7.82 mm Lazzeroni Warbird is capable of generating over 5,000 ft. lbs. of energy! That’s a 175 gr projectile at 3,500 fps. It’s head-head with the Weatherby offering. Lazzeroni’s 7.21 mm (.284) Firebird is also a top contender.
"Hunting"
"Extreme distances"
They really aren't the same thing. I guess unless you're hunting for a planet in a telescope.
Yes agreed, honestly high velocity is a diminishing return in terms of cost of powder, increased recoil, increased noise, barrel bore life, developing flinches, fatigue in longer shooting sessions. Plus bullet drop compensation isn't that difficult to factor, with a chart and a few clicks of a dial.
The real benefit in ballistic technology that pays dividends is the high BC bullets at moderate velocity because the wind is unpredictable and gravity is totally predictable. High BC bullets are usually (in most cases anyway) higher in sectional density so they play well with game penetration. This is primarily why the 6.5 Creedmoor has become a sweet spot, a convergence of cost, recoil, high BC bullets, and competence in most medium game and not being too overkill generally on varmints.
Yes Indeed, Lifted. This wasn't an endorsement of long range hunting, just a fun search for the flattest with some educational insights. Thanks for yours!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Certainly, I understood you weren't endorsing such. Thanks for the content!
@@exothermal.sprocket
I commented similarly before reading your text.
Should've read all comments before I responded.🤷🏻♂️🥴🤣
Nice job Ron!
@@kentuckywindage222 No worries. We strive to remain in a learning environment!
I agree... recoil...BC... performance out to 400 yrds..6•5 creedmoore will be hard to beat... but I'm old... and don't need the punishment of bigger rounds