Video není dostupné.
Omlouváme se.
Christopher Hitchens on the Israeli Flotilla Raid
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 07. 2010
- Complete video at: fora.tv/2010/06...
Author Christopher Hitchens discusses his views on the May, 2010 Israeli attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. He argues that while the Gaza occupation is unjust, the activists on the flotilla most likely had ulterior motives.
-----
Christopher Hitchens, tackling nearly everything with unmatched enthusiasm, erudition and, at times venom, has up to now barely touched upon one subject: his own life.
After many years writing about world issues and traveling to some of the most dangerous places on the planet, comes his memoir Hitch-22. Though Hitchens can navigate any argument with great dexterity, his memoir focuses on those whom he has loved, those he has abhorred, and those who have helped shape him throughout his life. The memoir answers this question: How the hell did Christopher Hitchens become Christopher Hitchens?
With tenderness he writes about his parents -- his mother Yvonne, in particular, "a beautiful woman who loves me" and about his father, Commander Hitchens, whose "liver was that of a hero." In a form that is anything but shy, Hitchens describes his complex and warm relationship with his mother, whose Jewish heritage he discovered only after her suicide.
The memoir naturally touches upon friendships, both lost and found over the course of his life. Hitchens' many sketches of friendships and ex-friendships from Martin Amis to Noam Chomsky, Edward Said to Gore Vidal are delivered in a style that is at once ironic, witty and tough-minded. A legendary bon vivant with an unquenchable thirst for literature, Hitchens has at times ridiculed those who claim the personal is political, even though he has often seemed to illustrate that very idea.
Paul Holdengräber, in conversation with Hitchens, will goad him to help bring into focus the many sides of Hitch, thereby illustrating Robert Frost's dictum that "a liberal is a man too broad-minded to take his own side in a quarrel." - New York Public Library
"It makes me want to throw up things I've forgotten ever eating" classic
This was just days before he was taken ill and found out he had cancer. We lost such an important voice 18 months later. RIP Hitch but the word still travels
As I remember he said he woke up and could not get out of bed.. thought it was just exhaustion from traveling and promoting his book...but felt it was something else
@@conorwhite2066 Yep. He said he knows all about waking up feeling rough, but this was different.
Hitch had such faith in the United States. Oh my gosh what would he think now! Especially today now that our corrupt Supreme Court has given Trump, a treasonous traitor, immunity.
What I like about him is that he doesn't have an agenda for israel nor palestinians, but he states what is disingenuous and flawed about all the sides involved.
Here we are again
Wish he were here
He is never coming back. But you are free to join him... where he is now! If that is what you choose for yourself.
Hitchens understands what most people don't.
That there is two stories to every case and nothing is absolute when dealing with humans.
It's so great to see a non partial guy like him.
Many people understand that, its just not the voices that are highlighted by those in control who wants strife for reasons they have. And then there are illiterates who thinks having a opinion before you study something is not the hallmark of a idiot.
@@kefkahkefkah The latter being the majority in this case. Well said.
In such 'impartiality' today the supporters of Zionism are actually supporting a base-genocide. How cool is that?
"It makes me want to throw up things I've forgotten ever eating".
Awesome.
WE will miss this guy
🤣
Especially today huh
“If Jews born in Brooklyn have a right to a stake in Palestinians, then Palestinians born in Jerusalem have a right to a stake in Palestinian”
Americans pay for all of this!
Then by the logic Jews born in Jerusalem have right to a stake in Israel. So you’ve said nothing. Damn you’re dumb.
An arab is an occupier in the land of Israel and islam is the colonizer. Islam came to Israel with a sword and left the same way. So what's the problem now? Ain't no one will kiss your a$$ just because you're Muslim and no one will give you a special treatment. Islamonazi hypocrites who conquer and enslave others and claim to be endigenous to the lands they conquer. No such thing as Palestinian arabs and will never be..
Hitchens is amazing, makes me want to hear the entire interview, does anyone know where I can read or see it? Nevertheless thank you...
No one knows for sure whats after this life, but I hope hes at peace where ever he is.
He actually has constructive criticism and one can see he not subtly aiming at the destruction of Israel like so many so called 'peace activists' are actually working for.
He forgot (like many), that Turkey is still occupying half of Cyprus, despite UN condemnations. But not only no one is doing anything, or even talking about... Turkey has sold many of the stolen homes and lands to European buyers, mostly British ones. But I guess that's ok, cause they're not Jewish, and at least they share the loot with Europe...
The Solmanian
czcams.com/video/PI1eSJvO4w0/video.html
In a discussion about Israel and Palestine there is slightly deviating from the point to tangentially link another detail... and then there is totally leaving the point.
What relevance would it be to mention that an act that the current leader of Turkey did not commit, but continues the status quo to enforce, makes him more of a dick than to pseudo-threaten a genocide?
I dare say that it doesn't seem to hold any sort proportionality when compared to each other.
But yes... I'm sure he just forgot ¬.¬
Comando96 You're right, what Turkey is doing is much worse. And Ardogan is even more extreme in his opinions than the ones that perpetrated it.
I hope you aren't actually trying to blame Israel in "pseudo-genocide" (whatever that is; at least you're not one of the ass hats, who actually call it a genocide). Because the "occupation" is apparently one of the worst attempt at genocide. Since that "genocide" started the Palestinian population quadrupled, in large part thanks to Israeli medical and humanitarian effort, which reduced child mortality by 75%. So either Israel is really incompetent in pursuing said genocide, or that simply isn't their goal. By contrast the Jewish race is on the verge of extinction, their numbers dwindling by hundreds of thousands every year; in no small part because of the genocidal effort of the Palestinians and their supporters. Every day, Jews across the world are killed because of their belief; only in Israel are they allowed to fight back. In many middle eastern countries, the regimes ignore murders of Jews, and it's rarely punished; that's assuming the regime doesn't openly support it.
The Solmanian Oh not Israel. The Pseudo Genocide comment was directed towards Erdogan declaration that no one is to mention the Armenian Genocide... or he'll forcefully remove the rest of them from Turkey. Genocide requires extermination of the population... would mass deportation of be genocide? Dunno, so I'll call it a pseudo one.
Oh boy... Israel...
Its just so complicated an issue.
I certainly think that the extremist proportion of the Israeli settlers share the Genocide aim(you know, those ones who were caught by Israel trying to bomb the Mosque on top of the temple), but its not the overall goal of the country. The issue being that every interest group is pulling in every direction in Israel. The Government sometimes actively encourages settlement, whereas when it doesn't... it is powerless to act against its own citizens who continue it by themselves.
I would say that the Jews were either retained by a countries population, or expelled upon he formation and establishment of Israel. That's partly what made it grow so rapidly. There aren't too many Jews left elsewhere in the middle east. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were killed.
Honestly I'd say the answer for what happens depends upon the definition of Israel. If Israel is to be a Jewish State, where Jew's are referenced, then there needs to be a 2 state solution... anything less would require a hundred year slow an steady corralling of the Palestine population and squeezing their ability to operate and exist.
However, an interesting thought is that if Israel was merely to be a State for the Jews... but offer equal rights to its other citizens without discrimination then you could have a 1 state solution for the region... once Hamas is dealt with. They are the biggest threat to peace, and even members of the PLO think that.
Comando96 I'm really concerned over Turkey, for the Turkish citizens more than for the rest of the region. The country demographic is roughly split between Christian and Muslim, but Erdogan forcibly trying make it into what can only be described as Islamic Monarchy cannot end well. Even if people in Turkey don't care about him demonizing the Turkish Jewish population and constantly harassing them, with such a large proportion of non-Muslims pushing down that path will make civil war inevitable. With the Muslims and Christian also geographically split between east side and west side, it would be almost too easy for the Christian part to secede, if they felt they aren't properly represented.
As for Israel, the answer is simple. The Israelis don't want to choose one or the other: they want a Jewish state, that is also democratic. Even if it could've been done without disastrous result , absorbing millions of Palestinians as citizens will destroy the democracy. At best Israel will end up like Turkey with either side trying to maintain a tenuous grip over government. At worst, and probably inevitable in the long run, it'll become yet another Islamic Dictatorship/Theocracy. I could point out that in every country they resided (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, the Palestinian leadership always ended up trying to seize power in a violent fashion.
Most Israelis support the concept of two states as the inevitable result of the peace process. The problem is who'll be in charge of said state? PLO can't control their people, Hamas can't be trusted as a neighbor. I used to think there was hope that eventually a new leadership will rise to lead the Palestinians to peace. But both PLO&Hamas poisoned that well, by centering their education on Jew hatred, legitimizing terrorism and teaching rewritten history of the region. The Palestinians of today, are far more extremist than those of before the peace process.
The Solmanian The PLO, unlike Hamas don't have the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion on their webpage. They don't base themselves and their movement on Jew hating, nor support terrorism. I cannot speak for them rewriting the history of the region but I think its dangerous to throw both together as basically the same thing, since they are not!
The only problem with the PLO is that Mossad spied on the PLO and then sabotaged all attempts for them to acquire small arm weapons in the early stages of the preliminary Government of Palestine. With this there was a power vacuum and Hamas was spawned as a contesting Government... which actively encourages terrorism. So long as the PLO fail, which they do because they are undermined, sometimes by Mossad and other times by Hamas, then the PLO have no legitimacy, nor are viewed as a force. Whereas Hamas is perceived by the Palestinians as at the very least, a force that can achieve something.
If you could usurp that belief from people that Hamas is a good organisation and that the PLO was a force... a 2 state solution then is achievable. However some force within Israel really doesn't want this. I suspect its those who'd be in favor of the slow encirclement and expulsion/genocide of Palestinians...
Turkey...
The notion that Turkey is a member of Nato, and that they are a potential member to join the EU is insane.
There is a term called Deep State, specifically to describe Turkey.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state
To simplify it, the military industrial complex gone wild. The USA ain't got shit compared to this.
And you speak of a possible Civil War in Turkey... its been in one regarding its Kurdish population for over 15 years.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93PKK_conflict
The US and Europe have trodden on the Kurds time after time... but now they are our allies. _I bet Turkey is happy at this situation_ xD
I can just about understand why Turkey is n ally of the west... but only just. I cannot possible even begin to fathom why BOTH... BOTH Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the West's allies... aid Iraq and aid Kurdistan, break the alliance with Saudi Arabia unless certain terms and conditions are met... such as stopping their funding of Salafism(the theological version of Wahhabism) throughout the world. Theoretically you could offer a similar proposition to Turkey... but "Withdraw from Cyprus" would immediately be rejected and "be less dictator-y" would be met with a smile and dismissed.
If, and I hope one doesn't, a conflict between Turkey and any western forces occur I hope it is used as an opportunity to remove the Cyprus stain from NATO's past. But other than that I cannot think what the future will hold for Turkey. Hopefully the people do something, because it is only a danger to itself, the region and its citizens at this moment.
I feel very fortunate to be able to tune in to yotutube each day and be continuously educated by Hitchens. And his books are great as well. I'm not just an internet surfer. One should definitely pick up a variety of his past and current writings and delve a little deeper into his thoughts and ideas, some of which he doesn't have time to get into when debating or lecturing. Hitch-22 is an excellent read. I'm sure he'd rather you'd have read it.
As an Israeli atheist, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Since you mention the UN, Israel has flouted countless UN resolutions including 242, requiring them to hand back the lands stolen in 1967. So Israel is on shaky ground citing the UN as support for what it's doing. And anyway, even under the partition-plan, Israel is occupying land that was allocated to the Palestinian state. The partition plan was unfair. The Jews were only 1.3rd of the population but got 55% of the land. The Arabs might have accepted more democratic borders.
I was raised to believe that but I believe that this is the only life we have,so we need to live it well. I'd really like to think all the evil in the world will not go unpunished but I just cant.
Respect to your comment as well.
He is right on Turkey and Armenans though. But remember that Israel hasn't recognised that either, and has actually lobbied against recognising it for cynical strategic reasons.
I would’ve loved to still be able to hear his opinions.
the question was about Palestine and Israel and the answer was about Turkey and Armenians.
Hamas does not have loonies. It did not even exist before Israel invaded Gaza and the W Bank and began its 46 year (and counting long occupation. It is a legitimate resistance force
“Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered, but never before have I watched as soldiers enticed` children like mice into a trap and murdered them for sport.”
-Christopher Hedges, American Journalist on assignment in Gaza
Hitchens was part Jewish and still no fucks given
Judaism is a belief system, not a race. Hitchens had some ancestors who were of the Jewish faith. He is NOT, "part Jewish", lol. You aren't beholden to believe what you grandparents believed.
@@theephemeralglade1935 The Jews are a race of people as well as a religion and are genetically connected, proven by DNA. That's why the Nazis wanted to not mix 'pure Aryan blood' with 'Jewish blood'. Converting to Catholicism did not save Rome's baptised Jews, they were rounded up and sent to their deaths late in the War. If you have a DNA test it can come up that you are Ashkenazi Jewish (European), Sephardi Jewish, (from Spain or North Africa) or Mizrahi Jews (from the ME). As Jews have traditionally rarely accepted converts or married non-Jews, all of these geographically different Jews have a closer unified link between each other than the areas from which they came. Askenazi Jews are genetically more closely linked to Mizrachi Jews than any European DNA.
The Jewish people came from Judea (West Bank) but were expelled from Judea by the Romans in 132AD by the Emperor Hadrian. You don't understand the difference between religious faith and ethnicity.
@@theephemeralglade1935 the lol just makes you look conceited and stupid when you know the facts
@@adambaker8689 Even though that is true, it doesn't affect my point whatsoever.
You aren't beholden to believe what you grandparents believed.
LOL!
@@theephemeralglade1935 Sweet Jesus, again, it's ethnic! If you have 1 black grandfather and you're mainly white, it doesn't mean that you can say, "I have no African lineage because I don't believe in it." It's not something you can change like religion. You can choose to not practice Judaism, the Chief Rabbi can do that, but it doesn't mean that you're no longer a Jew. You're stuck with it, much like a Chinese person is stuck with being Asian or Congolese person is stuck with being African...it is what it is.
So you do see that the Palestinians are analogous to the native peoples and are the victims of European colonialists?
You seem to understand that what was done to the Indians centuries ago was a crime -- yet defend Israel's treatment of the natives of Palestine.
Why is that?
Hitch is great. He speaks the truth and anyone who is hurt, I would say, obviously has a guilty conscience, or, is so brain conditioned that they cannot see their way out.
You just made one more fan for yourself ,Mr.Christopher hitchens!!!!!!!
0:43 Nothing has made me more happy to be Jewish than this statement. Very interesting for someone like me who thinks religion and its desire to persist is harmful and ridiculous.
Ever worked with the stuff? Do you know the nature of WP? Do you know how shells are dispersed? You've just shown how stupid your' rhetoric is. 'Homes were bombed'. Hamas has never fired WP shells so why would there be compelling evidence of WP destruction & chemical traces directly in areas where civilians live? Hamas shells are home made & crude. Why? because sophisticated means of deployment (for Hamas) is easily picked up by IDF Tech.One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter TRUE!
Educated people in the west don't support Hamas, anymore than we supported IRA, Maumau,Fretelin, or any other group that wanted to end occupations, like Israel's.However, Israel is a democracy, not a theocracy, and allowing religious groups to flout international law is up to the elected government. Hamas is what Begin and Jewish right wanted, as they supported it back in 1970s, and educated people understand that Israeli brutal oppression has swelled the ranks of Hamas and Hisbollah.
Brilliant as always. Hitch should have taken more care of his health, he looks awful here. Far too much booze and far too many cigs.
@Ian Michael I agree. Though selfish, it would have been amazing to see what he would have said about it. The Trump era especially.
He looks spectacular here compared to only a few months later when unfortunately there was no stopping the cancer
"if they should be brave enough" as far as I can tell they boarded a war-bound ship with no means of defence under the very real threat of their lives being ended, and then they were. In what context is it ok for these talking heads to call in to question their courageousness?
...that Palestinians are not currently occupying Israeli land and denying them the right of self-determination, right of return etc. And therefore the plight of the Palestinians in occupied territories are in that sense very urgent, which makes their struggle for liberation justified. The means they have taken is again, regretfully very violent, but that is shaped by the decades of oppression and their perception that there is no alternative.
Ans here is even an analogy to help you understand the situation. If someone tries to shoot you dead but you successfully wrest the gun away from them and later, in the interest of peace, you hand them back the gun and they proceed to try shoot you again and you again take the gun away - how many times do you hand it back before you say this is totally crazy? Even crazier is to make yourself even more vulnerable to yet the next attack on your life.
Awesome interview, thank you
I live in israel, I am jewish, I am an athiest and I approve :)
are you jewish or atheist
@BelfastAtheist avoid making assumptions about Zionists. A lot of different kinds of people support Israel, from religious fundamentalists to liberal atheists. It's part of the reason why Israeli politics are so diverse.
"not a single nation on earth was willing to accept jewish refugees from Germany."
You accuse me of inaccuracies and generalisation, what of yours? It is certainly true that the refugee policy during and before WWII was atrocious, resulting in less than half acceptance. But most countries, including US, UK, Spain, Switzerland, China and some later to be conquered surrounding states, still had limited acceptance quotas in place.
Well said.
I have a couple of friend who think likewise, if it makes you feel any better.
Unfortunately, idiocy rules these days, it seems as though people care little of doubt and skepticism.
On each side we have people saying "Burn the opposition" with no progress, when each side knows very little of the whole truth.
Wonder what the late great Hitchens thought about THE USS LIBERTY?
It was used in civilian areas. It spreads over 100 shards over a 250 metre diameter. IDF denied using the shells, even when The Times photographed the shell casings, marked with the classic M825A1 designation (made in USA). It's against the law to use it in civilian areas. How do you think so many homes were burnt in Gaza during 2009 attacks? Most of those in Gaza want no wars. Hamas etc are guilty yes, but so are IDF & Govt. of Israel & USA.
1940. Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, insists, "The only solution is Eretz Israel at least Western Eretz Israel [all land west of the Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe."1958. Jewish philosopher Martin Buber tells a NY audience, "When we returned to Palestine the majority of Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler"
This is an excellent point, and I know that my country, Australia, certainly has a terrible refugee record and needs to be improved. That is something that human rights activists are constantly working on.
However, that is only a part of the problem. It is treating the symptom rather than the cause. These refugees are displaced, their homes occupied and they have a right not just to citizenship elsewhere, but also to some kind of resolution within Palestine.
Lol, well this comment aged like shyte. How are those cultural enrichers working out?
"How they get themselves called activists I don't know"
Hitch telling it like it is :)
Also, straight from Wikipedia: "Israel reported that seven soldiers were injured in the clash. Four soldiers were moderately wounded, of which two were initially in critical condition, and an additional three soldiers were lightly wounded. Two of the injured soldiers sustained gunshot wounds. One was shot in the knee, in addition to three fractures and a crack in the hand, a deep cut in the left ear, a stab wound to the chest, internal bleeding, and cuts. The other one was shot in the abdomen.
Yes, in fact I do. I am against all theocracies because they are by definition discriminatory and often also happen to be incredibly oppressive. But that is really irrelevant is it not. 'Just because evil exists does not mean that I should be evil'
Hitch was totally sozzled.. XD
(and still the smartest man in the room.)
G-d rest his soul, Christopher Hitchens was a great, great, great man.
the numbers of people killed is irrelevant, the act of aggression by hamas by firing rockets is the reason 1400 Palestinians lost their lives
I think it is more accurate to say that a massive injustice was perpetrated during the founding of the state of Israel. During the same time I believe millions of Germans died during the de-germanification of eastern Europe. If the UN plan had been followed even slightly by both sides then any perceived injustice would have been vanishingly small as to be considered irrelevant.
Jews came to the table for the initial UN 2 state plan. The Arabs didn't want to play ball. And they have been stepping on rakes ever since.
What a deft speaker and incisive thinker. No, I don't agree with everything he stands for , but respect his ability to carry an argument to a logical conclusion, his integrity, and intellectual prowess. He appears, as well, to have been a consummate gentleman. We were fortunate to have counted him among us. G-d rest his atheist soul.
I've actually heard of Deir Yassin, but not many other massacares.
They aren't a tiny minority, they are the people who fueled the revolution. And that leader was elected in Egypt because of FREE DEMOCRATIC elections.
It's fact that Egypt threatened Israel for weeks leading up to the 1967 war. They kicked out UN peacekeepers from Sinai and massed 7 divisions, including 4 armored divisions, on Israel's borders. Nasser did make bellicose speeches threatening to invade. He did close international shipping lanes to Israeli traffic, a clear act of war. And yes, the IDF was still better prepared and better trained and struck first and faster, a very good thing. Lesson, don't rattle sabres when you're unprepared.
God bless Christopher Hitchens.
This is how you speak when you want your books on the front shelves.
RIP Hitchens. If nothing else you were entertaining,
If nothing else he was brilliant and morally courageous.
so what , is that an argument ?
Also there is a reason 'Bill of rights' was written in inverted commas. That indicates that I was using term loosely to refer to the Basic Law and Declaration of Independece, something which, in the absence of a constitution, is effectively their 'bill of rights'
So he was asked about the raid, gave a highly articulate but directionless ramble, then attacked the Turkish leader (albeit a deserved attack). Israel is a state that justifies its existence, its illegal WMD and its ethnic ceansing of Palestine on a passage in the Bible. This should be ripe pickings for a real Atheist, but as is always the case with Hitchens and his ilk, he's reluctant to attack Israel, never mind Judaism.
The Catholics (that easiest of targets) and the Muslims (now the second easiest target as our state media feeds the narrative that they're all potential terrorists) have been done to death, but Israel and its support remains relatively unscathed. The occupation is wrong - though he doesn't make it clear if he means morally or politically - I give him that, but that's as far as he goes.
I'm not sure if the Atheists that constantly spare Israel/Judaism their wrath do it out of fear, or if they're really just common garden variety bigots. Whatever it is, it's weak.
Tokiofritz Hitchens was very much against zionism and the injustices committed by Israel, but at the same time he still dislikes Hamas and any form of "Jihad".
cos he is jewish
Tokiofritz Bullshit
Bit late to this party but as an atheist supporter of Israel let me remind you thay when Israel was formed, borders were pretty fluid in the middle east with the British being the guys drawing the lines in the sand.
An apologist for the powerful and merciless. It’s truly sad what happened to Hitchens from the late 90s to his death. Especially when he was on the side of the weak and oppressed prior to this period. He was way too soft on Israel, but I guess finding out that he was Jewish by default from his mother’s side bore some prejudice or neutered any urge for really critical analysis about the crimes that have been inflicted on the Palestinians. He betrayed the Palestinian cause, while constantly reminding everyone that he backed the Iraq war because it would be a betrayal of his solidarity with the Kurds. Eloquent and erudite, yes, but that doesn’t mean you are right about everything. Entertaining and the listenable but too many conflicting and contradictory statements throughout his many years of book tours, lectures and debates to be mentioned in the same breath as say Noam Chomsky, who doesn’t let his prejudices or bias blind his judgement on what is right or wrong in a given situation or subject.
As for the issue of Israeli citizenship. You cannot possibly claim that Jews and Arabs are treated equally under their laws. Most telling is the issue of immigration and right of return. The state is also founded on the statement that it is a state of the "Jewish people", which is I believe now a part of its 'Bill of Rights'. Government resources are also disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs. Therefore, I ask you, why should they stay? This seems like forced removal to me.
“Makes me want to throw up the things i’e ever forgotten eating!!” 😂🤣😂
He was just unadulterated class!! RIP Mr hitchens.
Christopher Botch it up Botchens.
Just to add another final point, all colonial powers experienced revolts, Romans were opposed, French in Indo-China,and N Africa Britain in India & Africa, America in Philippines, Dutch in Indonesia, Germans in France and Balkans. That is normal, that is why Palestinians resent Israel, how Hamas came to power, why you have rockets from Gaza. Don't you learn world history in your schools? As the last colonial power, Israel is experiencing exactly the same opposition as other colonial powers.
They do share it. 1 million Arabs live in Israel.
They could've shared it in 1948. The Arabs refused and chose war.
The Egyptians 'occupied' Gaza and the Jordanians 'occupied' the West Bank (Judea and Samaria). At no point did the smashed armies of the Arabs say "You know what? Maybe just go back to the original offer. Here's your new Palestine. For the first time in history - a Palestinian State."
But they didn't. They just continued to try and drive the Jews into the sea. What's changed?
By the same logic of "they don't deserve a country because they lost the wars" the Israelis have to abide by that same logic. They lost countless wars over Caanan/Zion/Israel/Judea.
Israel is far less safe trying to maintain a hostile population outside its legal borders. The argument about defence is no different to the propaganda you hear by every other expansionist government. "Oh, we're doing it for our own safety." Please. Read the internal documents of Israeli politicians in the early years. There is practically no mention of security. What they talk about is access to water and other such things.
It is not irredentism either since Israel did not annex any territories based on historical possession but retained lands won in defensive wars as bargaining chips for future peace negotiations and for defensibility. It has, in point of fact, given back much of the land and at various points has offered virtually all of it back in exchange for peace.
I think you'll find that's incorrect. Christians and jews lived in arab lands as dhimmis and were persecuted by them. Additionally, there are currently conflicts between Hindus and muslims in India, Buddhists and muslims in Thailand, muslims and christian copts in Egypt, not to mention with the jews and shia vs sunni.
I wasn't given anything, btw.
It is not a war crime to defend yourself against those who repeatedly try to kill your people and wipe you out (as their very charters have as their stated goal). And if Israel was so interest in land grabbing then why did it give back the Gaza Strip, entire Sinai, Southern Lebanon, and parts of the West Bank? Why did it withdraw from conquest of even more areas during defensive wars?
No - Israel fights defensive wars or will respond when provoked to its limit. And it gives back land for peace when it can still maintain its defensibility (and you see how well that worked out). You point out no lies - you produce them - and yes - that is what makes you an anti-semite. You also ignore who started all the aggression and wars and who still vows to eliminate the other. And yet in Israel, Arabs represent 20% of the population.
Yeah there was already a significant Jewish population back when it was the British Mandate of Palestine, but it is definitely, undeniably not bollocks that millions MORE people migrated to that region after the founding of the State of Israel.
And at the end of the day I'm not making a point that 'Muslims' or any other religious or ethnic group should rule the area. My point is that Palestinians deserve the right to exist as an independent, self governing state regardless of religion.
Millions of people from Europe did not migrate into Jordan - or Iraq - or Syria - or Israel.
No not disagreement as such, but rather refusal to acknowledge any fault on Israel's behalf or rationalising away all their errors. An unbiased stance would argue for self-defence, whilst at the same time acknowledging that aerial blitzes and blockades of civilian cities are going too far, for example.
The occupation is unjust, or there were ulterior motives. Pick one.
Jews 3% in 1878, rising to 30% at partition, allocated more than half of the area of Palestine, and Arab 70% less than half. May 14,1948. Ben Gurion declares establishment of the State of Israel. In the fighting that follows 725,000 Palestinian refugees lose their homes, with 394 out of 475 Palestinian villages eradicated, leading Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan later to declare, "There is not a single Jewish village in this country that has not been built on the site of an Arab village.
@vide0gameCaster Just because they were the nationalities you stated doesn't mean that they are not friends of Hamas.
Oh, and the USSR invaded Afghanistan not to force communism on the Afghan people. They had already thrown their weight by and large behind socialism in a revolution in the 70s. The USSR invaded after that regime began to struggle in the face of an onslaught by rural warlords.
"one guy we don't like" it's more than that, Saddam openly stated he had those weapons and that he was going to use them. What i he did have them and we hadn't acted? We would be in a much more dangerous situation now. If you think removing dictatorships is causing damage to contries then you must feel sorry for Nazi Germany and the USSR when Hitler and Stalin died.
@Helenmary123 The Nazis invaded sovereign land. The only parties that have ever had sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza renounced their claim: Israel is the only legitimate claimant. It's like if Poland had said "we don't want that land any more". And no, the annexation is not a violation of international law: the armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan specifically stated that borders were mutable if militarily necessary. Please, do your research, make citations.
Israeli attack on the Flotilla proved that Israel never left Gaza, though for propaganda purposes Israel trumpets that it has retreated from Gaza....a BIG favor to Palestinians.Wow.
@MrNietzsche1990 This is also not true. Palestine never had sovereignty over that land. As such, they had no claim for it. The only claimants were Israel and Jordan, and the only country who recognized Jordan's claim was Britain. In fact, the armistice agreements signed between Jordan and Egypt and Israel specifically stated that the borders could be changed by military necessity, and considering the attack, the change was militarily necessary. The war was defensive, so it's not imperialism.
if new arab settlements are illegal, why does the UN not condemn their construction?
why does the world not claim that new houses built by arabs in the west bank are an obstacle for peace?
No one is advocating support for Hamas' terrorist tactics, Hitchens for example is a firm opponent of such methods. But to say that Palestine should not employ violent means is not the same as saying that they should just go away and let Israel have their land. In fact its ironic that you are criticising Palestinian violence when your argument at the beginning was that 'might is right'.
Actually, none of the ethnically cleansed natives ended up in Israel -- with rights or without. Obviously the tens of thousands killed by the Zionists didn't. Nor the 700,000 driven out in 1948 who by international law have the right of return but who are not allowed to by the Zionists.
You may be talking about the small minority of Palestinians who were allowed to stay to give Israel the pretense it is a democracy. And there is no way in hell they have the same rights as the Ashkenazis
I never said that Israeli law distinguish between Jew and non-Jew "in almost all matters". However, there are very important distinctions in the law such as those you mentioned, and also social inequalities. The fact that you seem to dismiss these types of discrimination reflect a certain bias in you for the state of Israel. Other indicators include stories of personal tragedy and the preference for Israeli/Jewish grievance ('self-defence') over other competing interests (self-determination)
They don't need to do the killing themselves - the IDF does it for them, guards them while they rip out trees, protects their illegal settlements, etc. IDF has some very good snipers, able to pump 5 bullets into a nine-year old girl from a couple of hundred metres, shoot down a woman and her three kids after they've been told to go by other IDF, or artillery to bombard a house that other IDF has just filled up with civilians, and then they can wear those cutesy T-shirts, boasting about it.
@vakasim
According to Reuters Erdogan said:
"There are currently 170,000 Armenians living in our country. Only 70,000 of them are Turkish citizens, but we are tolerating the remaining 100,000."
He then said "I may have to tell these 100,000 to go back to their country because they are not my citizens. I don't have to keep them in my country."
That isn't really relevent considering Native Americans have been wiped out and now represent a minority ethnic group within the USA. Compare that to the Middle East, in which Israel is sorrounded entirely by Arab countries and Arab people. You also have to bare in mind that people are still alive from when the nation of Israel first came to pass. The European colonisation of the Americas happened hundreds of years ago.
In summary, your point was ridiculous.
Now you contradict yourself. You claim to be incredulous at Israel's victory in 1967, yet now you refer to the 1973 War, when yes, Israeli intelligence failed and Israel was caught in a surprise attack and initially faced substantial losses. Naturally, the advantage goes to the attacker, and Israel fought a harsh battle on two fronts against Syria and Egypt, both of which were supplied by the USSR. By the time the US airlift came through, though, Israel was already turning the tide in its favor.
I know. the PKK are indeed terrorists in my opinion, but it is hypocritical of Erdogan to be fighting the PKK over this claim yet claim that organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah are not really terrorists and call them "freedom-fighters".
"... the point of the Jewish existence is to show there's no redemption." That's a chilling statement...I wish I knew the context of that reference. However, I doubt if I'll ever read Hitchens' book to find out.
Me too, was hoping to find some clarity in the comments
@BelfastAtheist The reason why Israel invaded Lebanon, in 1982 was because since 1980, the Palestinian militias were taking advantage of the Lebanon Civil war(which they helped start) to use southern lebanon to launch rockets into southern Israel. Really though? Stolen land? From Who? Who did the land in northern Israel belong to? Syria? No. But then why were they raiding and killing Israeli civilians? And once again, I dont know why they happened, they just did, if you wanna find out, look itup
Those 'so called' Jews were Jewish enough for the Nazis - and they're Jewish enough to be in Israel. But you're correct in this regard - before 1948 the Jews of Palestine ( the territory - not the country. There was NEVER a country called Palestine) were considered Palestinian Jews.
No other nation has such a historical connection or provenance to that land. Be you Jew, Christian or Muslim, believer or non believer, at least you can see from their books that the Jews were there.
How easy for him to say it, not being Jewish, not being mocked, accused of everything under the sun, hounded, yelled at, stalked, spat on, beaten, urinated on, of missing a few relatives because they'd been killed by Jew-haters, or worse.
Damn it, I'm a living breathing human being, not some point in someone else's theological, philosophical or political theories. All theories can go to hell before a human being. They're not worth a tear of a child.
(cont.)
@BelfastAtheist No you are trying to change the direction of the argument. I wont deny that i misinterpreted your previous response, but you have yet to admit that there is clearly logic in the argument that the occupation of the Golan heights is rooted in security needs and purposes. I dont know why the Syrians bombed and raided Israeli towns, just as I dont know why the arab world attacked in 1948, 1967(well were about to attack), 1980, and 2006.
Erdogan isn't a thug?
The Army, in Turkey, has traditionally been a stabilizing force; Erdogan has had peremptorily dismissed if not actually imprisoned scores of Turkish generals and hundreds of other officers but it is obvious that you wouldn't call this "thuggish."
Erdogan has also diplomatically isolated Turkey, a nation, what with Russia and Persia always breathing down its neck, has always had to have had friends abroad; the last time Turkey was so isolated it lost a big war with Russia.
Apologies, confusion and typo on my part. I meant the green line of course.
Israel's continue settlement expansion is however making even this resolution look more and more untenable. Especially as Israel also have a huge lobby in the US as well as their strategic significance.
I grow tired of this conversation. Every morning I wake to another 10 biased replies and I have to spend an hour responding. Perhaps I will come back to it in a few weeks when I reread Chomsky
There is no reason, aside from the extremes of both participants as to why Israel and Palestine can not exist side by side.
Martin Buber was a profound theologian and Zionist who said: "We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a refugee population in Diaspora."
Hitchens is what you get when you combine genius intellect with courage and a strong moral compass. He would have been the first to admit he was not perfect. Hell, if he was alive today he’d retract his position on the war of Iraq. But what Hitchens had was that unwavering pulse on what many knew but were scared to say, and the impeccable ability to communicate the idea with precision and the right nuance.
@BelfastAtheist The UN is absolutely wrong regarding the annexation of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. The armistice treaties with Syria and Jordan specifically said that borders could be changed according to military necessity. That's something Syria and Jordan agreed to. And yes, if it's necessary for security, it does trump international law. The lives of millions of people is more important than what the law says if the law doesn't protect those people.
Israel is actually now a geographically strategic Western base from which to fight against any (and probable) future African invading land armies.