Kit-E18 Parallel Hybrid Combo Propulsion
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- In Episode 18 of our Design and Construction of a 50' Performance Catamaran from Schionning Designs, we are going over the Parallel Hybrid Combination Propulsion system we are adding to S/V Lynx. We will use this propulsion system on our double circumnavigation as we take S/V Lynx, a catamaran sailboat, on her fourteen year voyage. We go over all four types of propulsion systems we considered and show why we feel that a parallel hybrid combination diesel/electric is the best way for us to go on our boat. Join us as we talk about our hybrid propulsion system and find out if we are crazy... or not!
Our Website:
www.svlynx.com
0:00:00-Intro - Propulsion system video introduction.
0:00:22-S/V Lynx Logo Animation and Video Title
0:00:38-Four Propulsion Options
0:01:31-Which Propulsion System we purchased
0:08:53-Benefits of a Parallel Hybrid Combo
0:10:05-Advantages in detail
0:29:54-Other Hybrid Options
0:31:44-More fuel data
0:32:09-Information on Building a Solitaire 1520
0:33:00-Patron thanks and Sponsors - Sport
An excellent informative video. You make a very good case for a combo hybrid setup. I appreciate the way you make your arguments, tending to round up numbers on unfavourable considerations and round them down on the favourable. This way ‘reality’ may end up being better than estimations.
Also I like that you want to have the power the designer recommends, to be able to handle emergency situations. I hope that you never have a real need to use full power.
Much appreciated!
Excellent video again guys - great research, conservative calculations, assumptions and dependencies declared and explained. You are really helping to innovate and educate - thanks and well done. So happy you went Schionning as they are the best performance & value (Aussie bias maybe here) imho, and looking forward to your build videos.
Thanks, we are happy with our choice in kit builders as well, and we love Aussies! We visited Australia on our honeymoon, many years ago, and fell in love with the people and country. Everyone treated us so kindly. We can't wait to return on S/V Lynx and spend a whole lot more time in Australia (at least a year). It's one of the things that keeps us working on building the boat!
These videos are so informative and well organized. I like the walk thru of the thought process!
Glad you like them!
Some of the best research out there, thanks Phil.
We're glad you enjoyed the video!
Its great to actually see the facts and figures behind your decisions. Keep up the fine work on these videos. Hopefully more and more folks will subscribe …
All in good time, but we'll keep making videos no matter how fast or slow we grow!
Excellent discussion and research, as usual.
FYI Sailing Zatara, which live aboard a Privilege 585, family of five, parents and three grown teens. They are in the Med this year. They spent the first six months in the eastern med. They have two main engines and two generators, and minimal solar, and have run a/c quite a bit due to Med heat and admittedly motored more than normal. Anyway with fuel consumption and prices (over six months) averaging approx $6.50 a gallon they estimate their diesel bill for 2023 will be over US$20,000.00
You are doing it right.
Thanks for the encouragement! And yes, we watch Zatara :)
This was one of the best researched and presented cost comparison between these systems I have seen so far. Thank you very much! However, isn’t it necessary to consider the much shorter lifespan of batteries compared to Diesel engines? Maybe I a wrong, but isn’t it to be expected that you need to replace your batteries every 10-15 years depending on use? For a fully complete full cost comparison you would have to include an estimated resell value of your components at the end of your calculation period, that would cover that difference in lifespan, but is understandably very difficult as there are no real data for such old battery systems. It would depend heavily on assumptions.
You are welcome. We don't claim to know everything, but we try to share what we learn.
As for replacing the cells, yes, they only last so long, 8 to 10 years, most likely. But remember, we didn't figure in maintenance on the diesel engines either. A quick forum search shows that people spend about $1,000 a year if they do the work themselves. So two diesels would be $2,000 a year, and $10,000 in five years. The batteries won't cost as much and the maintenance on electric motors is practically nothing. BTW, that maintenance cost on the diesels doesn't include a rebuild every 10 to 15 years.
First let me just say I really love your videos and the enthusiasm you both have for this project! I feel honored you called me out and took the time to document all of this and answer my direct questions and I hope you aren't offended in any way, as I'm learning along the way myself and truly enjoy the dialog. Being a nerdy engineer who builds stuff as well I Iove this topic, and actually just got back from the Boot Show in Dusseldorf where I spent a couple of days meeting with a whole bunch of these hybrid system manufacturers and spoke with a variety of people much more knowledgeable than me on the subject as we may still add this to our build. Couple of clarifications and counterpoints
First off, there are absolutely no performance catamaran owners motor who 40% of the time. The highest estimate would be 15% and that is a stretch. On a recent 1,100-mile passage my wife and I did from Annapolis to Ft. Lauderdale we motored a total of 60 miles which is 5.5%. This same boat sailed from Cape Town to Ft. Lauderdale this same year using 1/3 of its fuel or roughly 90 gallons to cover 9,000 NM, that's 1%. The good news here is you guys also have a phenomenal performance cat you are building, and it will sail like a dream, and you won't be motoring remotely close to what you are thinking nor burning nearly as much fuel. If you don't believe your boat will perform this well, you are building the wrong boat (which I don't believe you are) The reason people are burning $1,500 worth of diesel is because they are doing stuff like charging batteries every 4th day, or are on an occasional passage where they have the winds against them or passage speed drops under 4 knots coupled with having a weather system heading their direction and in order to not be out when things get spicy they motor sail.
You forgot to add in on your 14-year journey, you'll need to replace your batteries in 10 years if you treat them well, and that adds $20k to your calculations (inflation happens here too!). Not sure how much they will degrade in their capacity as well, but this is a consideration that has to be factored in. Also, your flexible solar panels will maybe last 5-7 years that will give you this extra range, so you'll replace them twice as well. Now if you have rigid solar panels these will last 25 years so you are good to go if you chose rigid glass panels.
Weight calculations - you missed an option that actually is lighter. You say that a generator is necessary with the (2) 50hp diesel engine option, but there's another option and that's to use Integrel charging systems that replaces the need for a generator. Also, saying arbitrarily that you'll need less fuel on your boat when choosing this option is silly and stacking the deck. A performance catamaran won't use 100 gallons of fuel in 6 months of living aboard, so saying you need more 58 more gallons fuel is cheating the numbers to make your case for you. To add it up a performance catamaran with Integrel system apples to apples would be 1,100 lbs for the engines, 700 lbs for the fuel to make it fair, 150 lbs for the Integrel system and 200 lbs for the extra solar panels (again to make it fair). So, this set up is actually 100 pounds lighter...and I've sailed over 2,000 miles now aboard cats that have this exact set up that works flawlessly. Not to say the PHC propulsion system isn't sweet, but it is heavier.
With respect to fuel savings, you speculate that you'll be able to motor 25 NM, (assuming a bright sunny day where you aren't shading your solar panels). But you leave out that you'll get to the anchorage and have depleted batteries...and then have to fire up the engines & burn fuel to charge. You say you can run the A/C all night if you want...but not if you are saying your batteries will start every passage at full capacity. You are making the assumption you'll have sunny skies to perfectly have this work out. And you're ignoring the fact that you are talking about a performance catamaran that can be sailing in only 5knots of wind and not motoring.
One thing that is great is that you guys are the ones actually building this boat and you'll understand it inside and out, because finding a technician in the locations that understand or have seen this sort of system before is not going to happen. Having a super cool, but incredibly rare technology could end up costing you more when you have to fly a technician/parts halfway around the world to fix something and could take months longer to fix than those trusty diesels.
Also, I'm sure you've heard of the Elcano Challenge. I've been fortunate enough to speak personally with one of the crew on that Outremer (Adventura Zero) who is also a professional captain and multihull expert. He did state that it is 100% possible, but you will be sacrificing so much and constantly be thinking about energy consumption. I think the Hybrid solves that issue, and I know my wife and I are not so concerned about saving every last dollar in diesel fuel, and when the expense is such a low part of the equation.
All this being said, because you are purchasing the components direct and providing all the labor, I 100% agree with you that a Hybrid system of some sort does make sense. I'm paying people to build our boat though and the cost I've been quoted is over $100k, so for me it definitely does not make financial sense, for you guys I do see how you can justify the costs even if in reality it might just be closer to a break even. I want this to work, and it will someday, but today for a person buying a boat not building one, the dollars don't add up quite yet.
Cheers and thanks for calling me out! Keep the videos coming I'll be following along as you are both doing a great job and hope we get to share an anchorage out there one day!
First let me just say I really love your videos and the enthusiasm you both have for this project! I feel honored you called me out and took the time to document all of this and answer my direct questions and I hope you aren't offended in any way, as I'm learning along the way myself and truly enjoy the dialog.
Answer: Me too! I never take offense at a good honest discussion.
First off, there are absolutely no performance catamaran owners motor who 40% of the time. The highest estimate would be 15% and that is a stretch. On a recent 1,100-mile passage my wife and I did from Annapolis to Ft. Lauderdale we motored a total of 60 miles which is 5.5%. This same boat sailed from Cape Town to Ft. Lauderdale this same year using 1/3 of its fuel or roughly 90 gallons to cover 9,000 NM, that's 1%.
Answer: That’s a bold statement ‘no performance catamarans owners motor 40%’. I assume you have checked with them all? ;) You have to remember that different people sail in different conditions in different locations. Not all are always on the milk run and there are days you will be becalmed.
The reason people are burning $1,500 worth of diesel is because they are doing stuff like charging batteries every 4th day, or are on an occasional passage where they have the winds against them or passage speed drops under 4 knots coupled with having a weather system heading their direction and in order to not be out when things get spicy they motor sail.
Answer: Sure, but I used your numbers for the comparison, not my own. Now you want to change your story. :)
You forgot to add in on your 14-year journey, you'll need to replace your batteries in 10 years if you treat them well, and that adds $20k to your calculations (inflation happens here too!).
Answer: Here we have to seriously disagree… technology aways gets less expensive and better. When I looked into going with a hybrid, ten years ago, lithium batteries in this quantity were $80,000, now I spent $10,000, 1/8th the price. Or, on my Prius, those batteries were $10,000 the day I bought the car, and we replaced them, twelve years later, for $700. Batteries get cheaper, not more expensive.
Not sure how much they will degrade in their capacity as well, but this is a consideration that has to be factored in.
Answer: Already factored into replacing them. What you are not factoring in is the cost of maintenance on a diesel engine compared to electric motors. It isn’t even close. Over fourteen years, the expected maintenance and rebuild of a diesel is around $22,000. This are not my guesses, I got these from a long discussion about this on a forum, and the guys who were arguing that it doesn’t cost so much were the ones saying $1,000 a year and $8,000 for the rebuild. The others were claiming more costs. I went with the lower owners for this example of $22,000. Add that to the cost of the diesel system over time, and add in $10,000 to the Combo to replace the batteries (though it will likely be less since batteries get cheaper, but hey, I’ll go with what they cost now).
Also, your flexible solar panels will maybe last 5-7 years that will give you this extra range, so you'll replace them twice as well.
Answer: I am not using flexible solar panels, I have hard panels with Sunpower with Maxeon cells.
Reply will continue... (it was too long to post as one).
Weight calculations - you missed an option that actually is lighter. You say that a generator is necessary with the (2) 50hp diesel engine option, but there's another option and that's to use Integrel charging systems that replaces the need for a generator. Also, saying arbitrarily that you'll need less fuel on your boat when choosing this option is silly and stacking the deck. A performance catamaran won't use 100 gallons of fuel in 6 months of living aboard, so saying you need more 58 more gallons fuel is cheating the numbers to make your case for you.
Answer: Again, you are making assumptions about how much fuel is used on all boats. We have A/C for the entire boat, dive compressors, TVs, three freezers and one refrigerator, computers, ice makers, I could go on. There are other boats like us out there as well. More and less fuel is used on different boats, by different sailors, in different situations. However, having said that, in my experience sailors don’t tend to cross oceans with a diesel equipped catamaran, performance or otherwise, with their fuel tanks half full, they fill up their tanks and some even carry extra Jerry cans on deck in case they are becalmed for a week or more. That’s what happened to Sailing Zatara, or Sailing Nahoa, recently, when they were in the Indian Ocean. Or another boat I follow when they were crossing the Atlantic to the Caribbean. For us, if becalmed, we have solar and electric motors to increase our range, endlessly, so we don’t have to worry about running out of diesel. Finally, on this point, no matter how much you decide you are willing to reduce your diesel capacity on a diesel boat (and I wouldn’t do so at all), I can always go with less than you choose on the combo because I have solar panels and electric propulsion to get me places when I am becalmed and low on diesel fuel.
To add it up a performance catamaran with Integrel system apples to apples would be 1,100 lbs for the engines, 700 lbs for the fuel to make it fair, 150 lbs for the Integrel system and 200 lbs for the extra solar panels (again to make it fair).
Again, I must disagree. The Integrel system (which is god awfully expensive, BTW) still runs off the diesel engines, so no, you can’t get away with less fuel on board during ocean crossings than a combo hybrid (see reasons above). So, I’d keep the 158 gallons again and that adds all that diesel weight. The only reason we can reduce weight is that we can run off solar and regen, you don’t get that with the Integrel system.
With respect to fuel savings, you speculate that you'll be able to motor 25 NM, (assuming a bright sunny day where you aren't shading your solar panels). But you leave out that you'll get to the anchorage and have depleted batteries...and then have to fire up the engines & burn fuel to charge. You say you can run the A/C all night if you want...but not if you are saying your batteries will start every passage at full capacity.
Answer: Lots of assumptions there… first I never said I would run my A/C all night, I said I can. In certain very hot situations, I will, and if I must, I will refill my batteries with the generator before departure. But the point about A/C off batteries has to do with listening to a diesel run at night. I can refill the batteries in two hours of my 12 kw generator after folks wake up, then depart. But most of the time I won’t be running my A/C all night. Next, as you noted, we are a performance catamaran, and I was being very conservative in my estimates of 25 NM on battery power. Schionning tells me I will get more, not less due to reduced wetted surface (narrow hulls, and the hulls only draft about 2’), but for these comparisons I wanted to use a range number I could achieve easily on the electric motors. I was also conservative on my use of the solar power we get from recharging so that I had enough for arriving at the anchorage. Still, if I had to, I still have a generator on board or I can use the diesel and one electric motor.
You are making the assumption you'll have sunny skies to perfectly have this work out. And you're ignoring the fact that you are talking about a performance catamaran that can be sailing in only 5knots of wind and not motoring.
Answer: I did not make that assumption; I expect to sail in light winds. And, no, I am not assuming sunny skies all the time, but most of my calculations were for crossing oceans in the Trade Winds, so yes, I will likely have sunny skies at those times. At other times, like in Europe, I will burn a lot more diesel fuel, but that’s why I have combo boat, not a hybrid electric. When it is advantageous to be a diesel boat, we can be one, when it is advantages to be a hybrid electric, we can be that as well. I get to use the most efficient, or necessarily, option, as desired. That’s the main reason the combo system is the best.
Having a super cool, but incredibly rare technology could end up costing you more when you have to fly a technician/parts halfway around the world to fix something and could take months longer to fix than those trusty diesels.
Answer: I disagree again. Electric motors are incredibly reliable and not rare. They have been around for ages and are used all over the world. And, unlike the 200 moving parts of a diesel, each brushless electric motor only has a couple of bearings. If the control box has some issue, I have a diesel engine I can use until I fly in a replacement part. If I am somewhere I can’t do that, I still have that diesel and my sails to get to a location that does. I won’t be flying anyone around the world to work on my simple and practically maintenance free electric propulsion system. Better yet, I will need a diesel mechanic far less often due to running on electric a lot of the time and saving hours on my diesel.
…the cost I've been quoted is over $100k, so for me it definitely does not make financial sense, for you guys I do see how you can justify the costs even if in reality it might just be closer to a break even. I want this to work, and it will someday, but today for a person buying a boat not building one, the dollars don't add up quite yet.
Answer: Now that I can agree with completely! I would never pay that much. But, I have built our entire hybrid system (its all paid for already) for only $16,000 more than the diesels and generator system. Just the large savings in Maintenance will make that up during our long voyage. If I switched to the Integrel system, it would not save money, in fact, it would probably cost more than the generator (they recommend two for a cat, and that puts that system WAY up there in cost, far more than a generator!) It would save weight on the diesel boat, sure, but it would still not be lighter than my combo hybrid, just close to the same. And, I would not have the electric option for propulsion, which is critical to us as we hate the smell and noise of a diesel and will only use ours when we must.
Now, all this is discussion in good fun. I don’t claim to know the actual numbers, everything here is guesswork based off other people’s numbers, etc. Only sea trials will tell the entire story on S/V Lynx. I appreciate your time and effort in bringing your counter points and look forward to sharing the real numbers with you, and everyone, once we test these systems on the water. Maybe you’ll be able to say ‘I told you so’, maybe not :).
Even if you are right about the cost, the weight, the fuel, all of it… I would still go with this system just to get less time smelling, hearing, and procuring fuel for a diesel boat. Some comforts are worth the cost.
@@SailingSVLynx Thanks for the reply, I guess we will agree to disagree lol. I'm super happy there are early adopters and people willing to pioneer the technology so the entire industry/community can benefit, to that my hat is off to you guys!
I would say though that my comments are based off my personal firsthand experience sailing and living aboard. You may have covered this in a previous video, but to gain some help you viewer understand your level of expertise in this subject matter could you share:
In the past 10 years:
1) How many ocean miles have you actually sailed aboard a performance liveaboard catamaran? Can you tell us of some of the passages & conditions you've experienced yourself?
2) How many (days/weeks/months/years) have you actually lived aboard any sailboat anchoring out/cruising and not at a marina?
I'm always eager to learn from those who have done this before me, but there are a number of things that you say that make me wonder how much real-life cruising you have personally experienced so would be great if you can share. Admittedly, I only have about 5,000 sea miles under my belt so far (and countless power boating miles) and about 7 months of living aboard catamarans in far away from the Med, to Scandanavia, Caribbean, Bahamas, East Cost, and South Pacific. So, I'm no expert for sure just a guy trying to learn something that enjoys the hell out sailing!
Cheers! Happy boat building & video making!
@@kirkb3473 Kirk, first of all, I appreciate you sharing all of your opinions and knowledge, but why do people always fall back in discussions to, "I have more experience than you"? I have always been open about my sailing experience, it is all listed on my website. In fact, in my reply to you I stated, and I quote, " I don’t claim to know the actual numbers, everything here is guesswork based off other people’s numbers". I don't have much experience in sailing large catamarans, all my sailing of larger sailboats have been on monohulls. Everything I share in my videos is information I have gotten from years of reading, watching, and speaking with many skippers of catamarans and I have obtained a lot of information from talking to the experts at companies like Schionning Designs. I am a researcher by nature, and always self-taught. I don't claim to be an expert at sailing big liveaboard catamarans, I just quote experts or come to conclusions based on their experience. My only experience sailing cats was on my 18', which I taught myself to sail and owned until recently. I also have no experience building a big cat, but that won't stop me, I'll share all my plans, mistakes, and triumphs as I go.
I'm not afraid of taking on new things, I've done it all my life. Every time I do, someone always want to tell me I don't have enough experience. If that were the case, I would never have sailed across the North Sea on a racing mono at 11 years of age, never have build my own kit sailboat at that same age, never have built a TV from scratch at 15, never have become a Master Scuba Diver Trainer at 18, never have become the Lead Designer at two game companies (with no prior experience and having been told I can't get that job), never have climbed the 3,000' granite face of Glacier Point one year after teaching myself to climb, never have written 23 novels, never have started three corporations, and never have collaborated on the design of the Solitaire 1520, a new model of catamaran, which is now for sale by Schionning Designs. I'll just keep doing what people tell me I shouldn't or can't; it has worked for me all my life. I get my experience by doing it, and 'damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!' (David Glasgow Farragut, 1801-1870).
As for your sailing experience, like all others, I weigh what you say and take what you say into account, and then compare it to what I have previously learned from other skippers of cats before I come to any decisions. Like the Borg, "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile." :)
@@SailingSVLynx Rationalize: the attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's position) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.
So, to summarize the answers to my question since you skirted them:
1) Zero sea miles in a performance catamaran
2) Zero days living aboard
I do truly wish you guys nothing but success in this project, the world needs more doers out there and you and your wife are definitely two of them! Also, I sincerely hope you are able to come back and make that video 5-6 years from now explaining how all this stuff you read in books translated to real life cruising and that the stuff that pesky viewer Kirk B said was way off base! Hell, I'll even do a guest appearance in the video so you can roast me : )
Cheers!
I am growing my dream by watching your video. Thanks you Sir !!
We are glad you are enjoying the videos!
Wow! - The detail you've provided is soooo good. Thanks so much for sharing!!!
Mo-
Glad you liked it!
Can't wait to see it come together!
it won't be long now! We start the construction in March!
Wonderful video. Really appreciate your sharing of your thought process and experiences.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another excellent comparison explanation! and an awesome system!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the episode.
This setup makes a lot of sense. I would like to add that most of the motoring, even for round the world cruisers are short trips where the diesels don't even get to warm up. So most of the time people are running their diesels cold and/or in low RPMs which is actually damaging. If a regular diesel can run for lets say 7500 hours, hybrid diesel should run for the lifetime of the boat easily.
Yeah, we are excited about this propulsion system. However, we aren't the first to use it, another 50' catamaran circumnavigated with this setup and told us that it was the bees knees, so that's why we went with it. So, we know it works well. The diesel will be rarely used, mostly as a generator in overcast locations and as extra power when against a strong current. The rest of the time, the sails and electric motors will get us where we need to go.
Thanks for the european mesurements. On 11:58 there is a mistake: according to google 100 gallons is 378 litres not 598. But the weight is correct I guess.
Ooops! Sorry that slipped by.
Really good one🏋️👍🏋️, Thanks!
M K, thanks, we appreciate it!
Love your channel and what you are doing, I’m binging them in seemingly random order. Absolutely amazing work effort and documentation. I was looking at your BMS from the three videos where you built the prototypes. Each BMS you were using appears to be rated at 100A continuous and 200A momentary. Since you are planning 3 batteries in parallel (the two in series don’t add to available current) then I see you as having a maximum continuous draw of 300A @ 48V for 14,400 W available for both house and propulsion. The good news is as you already know, your 33kWh of cells are more than capable of outputting the needed current… it’s the BMS, and potentially the busbars. In order to run both engines at 20kW (40kW in total) then you will see a draw of 833A at 48V, plus a bit for house loads. Based on three battery packs that should be around 300A from each battery pack, which can probably only be done with upgraded relays instead of MOSFET versions like your board - which seems more suited for either higher voltage or lower continuous draws. I know that there are BMS models out there that support external relays, though it will need a separate shunt to measure draw instead of being built into the BMS. I think it might be that or or using 70AH batteries at 48V and having 9 in parallel. Sorry, and I hope that I’m wrong… I don’t have any affiliations, but Orion Jr seems like it would work with an external relay, there are likely other options as well. you might want to wire your 230AH cells as an actual single pack in situ on the catamaran in 3P8S structure.
The thing is, we don't plan to ever pull that kind of power from the electric motors. That's why we have an 80hp diesel. The electric motors are for low speeds, like doing 5 knots or less or tooling around in an anchorage or marina. Anything more than that, we will turn on the diesel when we need a lot of horsepower.
Excellent video. As an electronics engineer I approve of more electric. lol. Another consideration is the availability of diesel in remote locations. Especially with pacific islands migrating from diesel electricity generation to solar/wind.
That's a good point! We're glad you enjoyed the episode. :)
Very informative, excellently researched and well presented content - as usual. Thank you for your hard work. Would love to hear your thoughts and ideas on Lightning mitigation...
Thanks for your kind words. Unfortunately, if you ignore marketing stuff from companies selling lightning protection systems and just look at the science reports, there isn't much you can do to protect from lightning strikes. But, don't take our word for it, watch the latest Parley Revival video (link below) where Colin talks about how they have been struck by lightning, twice, and how his research shows that there isn't anything you can do to prevent these strikes and why. We already knew all that from our own research, but his research came to the same conclusion. He was just very unlucky to be hit twice (at 1 in 1000 boats being hit per year, he won that lottery twice).
czcams.com/video/raNxDQ3eqZk/video.html
I agree with you almost all your arguments for your chosen system and appreciate the detail you are sharing. Personally would strongly preface that you are basing your position on educated (sound) assumptions and theoretical projected performance statistics (not much else to do when you are at the leading edge), I am very much looking forward to seeing what real world performance you achieve, I am constantly surprised the single diesel option has not been more broadly adopted.
Would like to hear how you are managing the weight balance disparity that comes with the single engine system.
I understand that regen is a major element in your energy budget, have you considered the benefits of running two 12kw electric motors with selectable clutch rather than the single 25kw. On face value this idea seems daft.....adding more complexity, cost, etc....but....being able to selectively bring smaller electric motors on line for hydro regen might give you much broader range of boat speed where you can effectively engage hydro regen. I imagine you will need to be averaging quite fast boat speed to get significant regen from 25kw electric motors.....smaller motors can allow you to maintain consistent charge at lower speeds (ultimately this is strategically where the maximum benefits of regen for extending range exists), in the conditions (slightly lower than optimal) which one might expect to spend a significant amount of time sailing in.
Hey Bunyip, thanks for all the great questions! We are also looking forward to real world numbers, unfortunately, there weren't many to use at this time since there are no Solitaire 1490s out on the water yet (and of course, no 1520s either, since we are the first). These methods were the best we could do for making our decisions at this time. As for two 12 kw motors, that would be a nice option, but it isn't one that was offered for us. The thing is, we are a performance catamaran, so we will be sailing at decent speeds when there is wind, so regeneration will be possible during those times. For example, when we are sailing across oceans using the Trade Winds. However, we actually don't plan to use regeneration all that often since it slows your boat down significantly (1 to 2 knots). Most passages we don't need regeneration at all. Remember that 80% of our passages will be single day trips, and on a single day passage, we have enough electric motoring to cover the trip (unless we are completely becalmed, which means, we can't regen anyway with any size electric motor). Now, to answer your question about weight balance. Starting with the Port side engine compartment, we have: Diesel engine-606 lbs., Electric motor-135 lbs., Water heater-73 lbs., Total=814 lbs. In the Starboard side engine compartment we have: Electric motor + control box- 165 .bs., 22kWh lithium batteries-440 lbs., Electric dive compressor-203 lbs., Total=808 lbs. The dive compressor is separated from the electric motor area by a wall, but is very close by.
@@SailingSVLynx Thanks for such a prompt and complete response......every boat is different, with different setups and demands and no one really seams interested in providing detailed let alone basic real world energy budgets. So wasn’t expecting anything other that best educated guess.......just think an abundance of caution needs to be applied, it doesn’t take much of a miscalculation or over estimation to skew projected performance figures.
Great to see the extra detail on your weight distribution to.
I think sometimes there’s a tendency to over estimate the potential of energy production systems especially regen.......my understanding is most lithium recharging prefers consistent clean power input and this can sometimes be challenging to achieve in real world sailing conditions. But it seems that you have certainly got you head around the challenges, unlike some of the nay sayers.
Lynx’s propulsion will primarily be a Sail boat, secondary electric hybrid, and thirdly diesel hybrid, plenty of redundancy with one diesel......and so many more propulsion options .... I think it’s one of the best options.
I recall a couple of YT interviews with Bruce Wilson who owned “Waypoint” Lagoon 410 one of the first production electric cats talking about the benefits of smaller motors (amongst other gems), well worth a watch.
Good information! We are wanting to build a Vision 444 and love the simplicity of the Nanni diesels. One question, why cut the fuel tankage down to 100gals? If the boat is designed with the 150g tanks, why not keep the original tank size and fuel to 3/4 (assuming you are trying to not carry the extra weight). Then on very long passages you can top off the tank.
We considered it. The decision came down to space. The diesel fuel tanks are located in two of the forward deck lockers and we are trying to keep all the space we can in those lockers for things like fenders, etc.
@@SailingSVLynx That makes sense. I see the same things with other sailors having jerry cans hogging up valuable locker space or just lashing them to the deck. Always thought there would be a better way of Tankering fuel on long passages.
@@gmonnig I agree, I hate seeing all those jerry cans. It's one of the reasons we choose this propulsion system. Technically, we are never out of fuel since we can get more from solar and regen. So, we won't have 'range anxiety' on long passages nor feel the need to load up on over 1000 pounds of diesel fuel. We feel it is better to stay light and sail in less wind. That's another reason we aren't keeping the 158 gallon capacity, we don't want to fill it up with the weight anyway.
Nice video. Prefer 2 diesels paralleled. If that one diesel goes down. I'm looking forward to electric motor mount brackets for retro installation DIY becoming available, hooked up between the coupler and tranmission ? The reality and safety of having that diesel when you have to have it.! Again.. nice video guys.
To each their own. We have sails as our primary propulsion. Electric motors as a second, and a diesel as the third backup.
You have certainly done your math. I presume that all the figures given exclude house needs on both storage and generation side but have you considered the effects of adding additional batteries? Yes it is more weight and cost but assuming you have the generating capacity it delays when you have to turn on the diesel which could end up saving you money in the long term. Of course there is point of diminishing returns in there somewhere
Mostly, house needs were figured in. For example, we get a full charge of our batteries on a sunny day, but I allocated 8 kWh (1/3 of our usable bank) for House needs and only figured in motoring for 10 NM instead of 15 NM. We considered more batteries, but decided against the cost and weight simply because we may not need them. We want start out by matching the battery storage capacity to one day of solar recharge. If, later, we feel this is not sufficient, we can always add more batteries. Being a Performance catamaran, every pound makes a difference, and batteries are heavy.
It’s certainly an interesting way to view powering a Catamaran. The main issue I see is the unknown reliability of the electric drives. Especially the cooling system.
Actually, electric motors have been around for ages and are far more reliable than any ICE, with incredibly few moving parts, just a couple of bearings. Water cooling is also simple technology, again far less worrisome compared to the internal cooling of a diesel engine. We have much better things to worry about on a boat ;)
@@SailingSVLynx only time will tell!
@@jacksbackable No, time has already told; @Sailing SV Lynx is 100% correct. Reliability of electric motors is orders of magnitude superior to ICE. The data behind this is overwhelming, it is not "unknown". Whoever told you that is completely ignorant lol, tell them to do some basic research before professing such an incorrect opinion which is pure FUD.
@@jacksbackable On our boat, sure. But time has already weighed in on marine electric motors as they have been in use for very long. Here are some quotes from articles about their reliability.
From an article in Ocean Navigator...
"Are they reliable? Electric motors are mature technology and are much simpler than diesel engines. The number of things that can go wrong is much smaller. Generally they are more reliable."
Or from another source...
When compared to a combustion engine, electric motors have very few moving parts. (A brushless electric motor will consist of almost no wearing parts, just a few bearings) while the combustion engine contains upwards of 200 different moving parts.
The reduced number of moving parts means that fewer components in an electric motor experience wear over the life of the device. The reduced wear means that the motor’s individual components last longer. This leads to improved reliability and reduced maintenance, especially when compared to a combustion motor. That isn’t to say that an electric motor will last forever, just that the likelihood of a failure or repair is reduced.
(The only components of a brushless electric motor that experience the most wear are the bearings.)
In electric motors, bearings are used to reduce the friction between components, and to keep the shaft or rotor in proper position. Bearings come in many types and shapes. The most common types of bearings used in electric motors include simple sleeve, ball, roller and sealed. As bearings lose lubrication, they begin to fail, and must be serviced or replaced. (But replacing these bearings) is relatively inexpensive and easy to replace or repair upon failure. This ease of maintenance and low-cost repair are also key factors in the reliability of an electric motor.
Great explanation. Loving the video editing wizardry where you’re superimposed in the graphics! Something tells me that this build is going to go much better than other channels attempting this. Stopped watching one because it was getting a little depressing with the painfully slow progress. What is your projected timeline?
We are glad you are enjoying the videos! Our timeline is two years to splash, starting from the day we begin building (as soon as the damn 'atmosphric rivers' stop dowsing the build site). The first year is to build the shell, the second year is to add all the systems and do the finish work. It's a grueling schedule, to be sure, but we are excited to get to work!
Wow! Thank you so much for sharing this information on your parallel hybrid diesel/electric configuration! I've been researching potential vendors for components to install a similar, but smaller hp, system in a monohull, and your explanation is very helpful! Did you consider Beta, and if so, why didn't you choose them?
Yes, that was the first system we considered. We ruled them out on cost, they were extremely expensive.
Great info! Can this be copied into a mono hull? Say a brand new Catalina 425? Obviously you won’t need the 2nd electric motor.
I don't see why not :) Give Combi ePropulsion a call and tell them Captain Blood sent you.
You can get fuel at $4 a gallon in the USA maybe.........But The rest off world maybe not... Its appox $ 2 a Litre here in Austalia ( so 3.78 By 2 is $ 7.57 Ausssie a US gallon )
The price of diesel will be different all over the place, and the price will not remain the same anyway, likely rising. We figure, the less diesel we burn, the better, for a whole host of reasons. Yet, we still need a diesel engine on board for emergencies due to the density of energy vs batteries. Current batteries weigh too much. That's why we went with our parallel hybrid. When we can't sail, we will try to be an electric propulsion boat most of the time and a diesel boat the least amount of time, but we have the diesel engine when the situation requires it.
Wow the fact that the Combi engine had almost no electronics is super attractive. You also forgot to mention that electric motors have better torc than diesel engines at low speeds
Yes, that's one of the advantages of electric motors. Of course, diesels have their advantages as well. That's why we went with both. :)
I think your decision is pretty sound but I believe you have biased your figures to reach the conclusion you hoped to arrive at 🙂 (not that there is anything wrong with that, I do it all the time)
E.g. you mentioned on an 18 day passage you might regen 48kw(h) of power per day, but you mentioned only 22kwh of storage. It is unlikely that your requirements will be for sail/motor half a day each day. Also I don't believe you will be motoring for 40% of the time. I have a Schionning Waterline 1480, I am not as opposed to motoring as some however I would be embarrassed if I motored more than 20% of the time. I haven't kept a record but my gut says significantly less, but I still work, so some trips I motor home to make schedules. If I'm not on a schedule, some days I'll sail at 2kn or even less, they can be great days/nights and there is a lot to be learned by sailing in light winds if you don't mind the noise.
Well, motoring less would only help on those long passage numbers. And, yes, recharging 48kWh of energy is dependent on having the storage available. However, if the wind is blowing strongly enough to regenerate that amount of power, it is also unlikely I will need to motor all that much anyway. I doubt I will need to use my diesel that much on a Trade Winds passage with a performance cat, as my electric propulsion should do for most of the motoring, especially if I'm willing to slow down a bit, and generally, that's my plan. And if I really have to use diesel for a few days, I have a diesel engine and fuel on board as well.
@@SailingSVLynx I'm in agreement with your decision, I'm just having a bit of a giggle about your justification for doing so, I think you want it and have massaged the numbers to justify it. On paper with actuals, you will find diesel will come out ahead, even with your 14 year plan.
From a clean slate design, I would probably end up with something similar to yours but not because it was the smartest way but because it was pretty close and I think it is a nice solution.
My point on the 40% v 20% motoring is it will tip your cost spreadsheet balance the other way.
The 22kwh of storage v 48kwh of regen also tips the spreadsheet balance the other way.
I'm not criticising your decision, as I said I'd do something similar. I do think maybe for those watching and for those who may follow, maybe you should say it doesn't really add up, but it's not far off and I think it's neat, so I'm going for it.
@@whereswaldo1191 Of course, this is all on paper, so which one of us is correct is something that will have to wait for sea trials. However, one thing I didn't go over in any detail was the cost of maintenance, and that adds quite a bit of savings to the hybrid side of the equation, so I still think that our costs will be less. I may do an addendum to this video in the next one. It's hard to nail down numbers, but I did some quick reading on forums where boat owners were discussing maintenance costs on their diesels and the ones who were touting the lowest costs, by doing all the work themselves, still quoted $1,000 a year, per diesel engine over the life of the engine. And, that did not include the inevitable cost of a full rebuild down the line. If I add that rebuild into our 14 year voyage calculation and also compare replacing the entire lithium battery bank halfway through our voyage, we come out about $12,000 less on the one diesel vs electric motor and $11,500 less on the diesel vs diesel (because we will run it 75% less over the voyage, which means only 25% of the annual costs, but I included the full cost of a rebuild at $8,000). To look at those numbers, that's $1,000 x 14 years plus $8,000 for the rebuild (per normal diesel operation), or $22,000, while on the hybrid diesel that's $250 x 14 years plus a rebuild at $8,000 (though that may not happen in our 14 year voyage due to the much reduced run time, but I added it anyway). On the hybrid side, I compared the $22,000 for the standard diesel boat to $10,000 worth of replacement batteries. So, all total, that is a whopping $23,500 savings in maintenance! I also expect batteries will drop in price over that time, but I figured today's price anyway. Regardless of any of these estimations, I am pleased to see that our video helped you consider going with this combo system as a possibility. Hopefully, I am somewhat close on my numbers! But, even if I am off significantly, the wrong way, and it costs more for the hybrid combo setup over time, I would still go with that combo system for the benefits of less diesel use, which means less smelling of fumes, less noise, less difficulties in procuring diesel fuel, and added comforts of the larger battery bank.
@@SailingSVLynx sounds good, I'm jealous, we have outboards that drop down through the centre of each hull so we are limited in options.
"A real PITA" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Indeed!
What voltage are the Combi motors?
48v
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wah where is your chat system ? and where is your building site ? is there space for another Boat?
The S/V Lynx Loyal Patron chat system is for, well, Loyal Patrons. :) To access that, you would need to go to Patreon and sign up to become one of the S/V Lynx Patron Crew. As for the build site, it is in Southern California, and no, there isn't room for another boat there, sorry. Just enough room to build S/V Lynx.
@@SailingSVLynx but where can i build the boat when there is no space and how
@@alqubes I have no idea. It all depends on where you live. I can tell you that in Southern California, I spent 3 months searching for a location to build a kit cat. I had to deal with city officials, lawyers, stupid regulations, several written proposals, and countless phone calls and hours of scouring maps to discover a location. So, finding a place to build your own kit boat can be challenging, but in the end, all our work paid off and we did find a place to build. So, just do the work and see what you find in your area.
I think your weight savings maths should have assumed high output alternators over a Gen Set.... still would have been about equal in terms of weight savings.
I did mention alternators instead of a genset, but also talked about how you have to be underway to use those as they don't put enough load on a diesel to run at anchor. So, for our comparison, since we know we need to generate power at anchor, we do not consider high output alternators a viable option for S/V Lynx.
$48k seems like a deal for that entire system.
We thought so for all the versatility we get in this hybrid setup.
One comment. Power of the diesel engine doesn't directly translate into power of electric motor. Diesel has to be more powerful because of torque characteristics of the engine and propeller. Propeller isn't capable to translate all power into propusion, it has considerable losses, since it has to be capable to overcome the prop torque at low power. Electric motor has virtually the same torque at low RPM, as a consequence it has much higher overall efficiency. It pays to have a diesel generator, since it can run at it's optimal power and use electric motor for propulsion.
Unfortunately, this isn't really true. You shouldn't confuse torque with horsepower. The full torque at any RPM supplied by an electric motor is useful for things like low speed maneuvering in a marina, where a diesel has to get up to a high RPM to get to its torque band. However, when it comes to pushing the boat at higher speed, that's all about horsepower. If you have a 25 kw generator coupled with a 25 kw electric motor, first of all, you are going through several conversions of power before it gets to the prop, and each one loses energy. Even if you pretend that a 25 kw generator will give you the full 25 kw to the motor you would still only have 33.5 hp vs the 80 hp from the diesel and there are less loses on the diesel side since it goes through less conversions of energy.
Then there is weight. That generator can only supply enough power for one electric motor. If you want the full horsepower of two 25 kw electric motors, you need something like two 30 kw generators. That would still only give you 67 hp, and it would add 600+ pounds of weight to the boat and the added maintenance and cost to purchase two diesels, etc. Even so, you would still be underpowered compared to the single 80 hp diesel.
We are adding both systems to S/V Lynx because they each have their advantages, but the electric motors advantage is not boat speed, it is low speed maneuvering and low speed cruising with fuel savings as we use solar gained electricity to cruise along for 2 to 4 hours a day. But anytime we need real power and speed, the diesel will need to be used. This will become quite evident in a real world example when we finish S/V Lynx. We will have both two 25kw electric motors and an 80 hp diesel. It will therefore be quite easy to compare the boat speeds possible from diesel vs electric.
lol dont think you really know how electric batteries work the cubed rule is NOT a rule, i think you are goijg to have your motors spinning for about 3 seconds !
Fortunately, we don't have to guess. There are plenty of real world examples of electric motors and battery capacities on boats that show us we are not far off. However, we will post sea trials and actual range, speed, and time numbers for our boat once we get S/V Lynx in the water. We estimate 2.5 hours at 5 knots, you estimate 3 seconds. We'll see who is closer :)
For example: The Windelo is a 50' performance catamaran with a electric motor system, so similar to S/V Lynx. At 5 knots, they show 5kw being used. We have 33kw (26kw usable) of battery. If we divide our usable 26kw by 5kw, we can see we would get about 5 hours of motoring at that speed, but we are only planning on half of that to be conservative. www.windelo-catamaran.com/en/electric-hybrid-drive-system/
The spinning parts were making me feel sick, so I had to stop watching.
Sorry about that.
How big is your battery bank ??
33 kWh, though we ay increase to 44 kWh.