I am from Russia, and there are difficulties with neutral language. Russian language has a division into feminine and masculine addresses, but at the same time, women's professions are called in the masculine gender, because it is considered neutral, but this is not true. Many women are trying to defend feminine gender markings in speech
I have heard about a similar discussion happening in Poland, with exactly the same reasoning. Even though it seems progressive on de surface, making women in certain professions use the masculine name is kind of pushing the idea that masculine = normal and neutral. But I understand both sides, in Poland some choose to use the masculine version and some the feminine version, whatever they think fits best! One way around it I've seen is using pan/pani (mister/mrs) in front of the job titel, saying for example "Pani adwokat" instead of adwokatka...
Been waiting a long time for someone to bring this up in a video. Growing up as an English speaker neutral language has been normal for me it has been others who force gender where it grammatically isn't neccisary in English. Wereas when I was younger I also spoke welsh which is very much a gendered language and I am somewhat glad I didn't live in a welsh language community as I feel that would have made social transition even harder as those closest to me have to adjust most words in a sentence rather than just pronouns. I am now learning estonian (to gossip at a family wedding in the summer) and its a language even more neutral than english and it's so refreshing you never have to think about gender at all everyone is referred to the same :)
Also, I have been learning kernowek (cornish) while I have been living here and like welsh it has hurt a little bit existing in a heavily gendered language :')
That's awesome! I didn't even know Welsh was so gendered! I tried learning it but I gave up 😅 I had the same experience, although I am Polish, I was living in the Netherlands when I came out so I didn't have to deal with people adjusting their entire sentences, as Dutch isn't a very gendered language. I'm guessing Estonian has a one pronoun situation like Finnish? Love that! Lovely to see other people who also like learning languages!
Wonderful video, thank you very much. A Polish genderfluid person here, who has lived in the UK, and now lives in Portugal. Totally relate to how different linguistic contexts call for a reimagining of yourself, including your own gender.
@@mattb1498 right? Fascinating how the language you speak forces you to reflect on how you present your gender identity! Thanks for sharing your perspective :)
The first person to consistently gender me correctly was actually a Spanish speaking friend of mine, who consistently uses the -o suffix for me. At the time, it made me question whether or not I preferred that or the less known gender neutral suffix, but looking back, I really appreciate her support. It must be difficult for trans people living in Spanish speaking places though, especially those who aren't out or have limited support. They basically have to choose between misgendering themselves or outing themselves, because there aren't many ways around using gendered language about yourself. One funny thing though, that I'm just now reminded of, is that when I was learning Spanish, and still very much an egg, I kept using the -o suffix for myself. I kept being corrected about that but it just felt right ... for some reason.
Oh man I had the same thing back when I had Spanish class in high school, kept using -o for myself because it "sounded more natural to me" 🤨🥚 I think the very gendered languages like Spanish or polish go both ways when it comes to trans people, because either you notice the misgendering more because it's more than just pronouns, OR you get more affirmation if everything that is said to/about you is in the correct gender...
Cool that the algorithm recommended a fellow queer metalhead with an interest in languages ✨ I actually do enjoy the gendered nature of Polish at times, as you also get bombarded with the gendered language that you enjoy as well, if you're lucky enough to have supportive ppl around you that is. pozdrowionka, zasubowałam 😸
Aahh dziękuję bardzo :) welcome to the channel! And yes, that is very true, once you do start being gendered correctly it is amazing in a language like polish, it was a huge thing for me when my family finally started using the right language for me :) always feels so nice to be called the right thing!
Hei, hauska tutustua 🙂 Being a Finnish trans person, it's true the non-gendered language is comfortable. Though there is no affirmation, there also is no misgendering - at least without expressly calling someone a gendered / sexed thing. Even without pronouns we still do have fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts and other gendered/sexed labels. Anyways, this meant for me I didn't really have to think about my gender growing up much, and only came to discover mine later.
Oh yes, of course, that makes sense. That's why I said pronouns were "the only issue" in quotation marks. Of course you'll still have to deal with being called someone's son/daughter/brother/sister. But it's interesting that you say that there is no affirmation, I didn't even think of that... what if someone DOES want to use gendered pronouns but there are none available 😭
I think the idea of gender bending across cultures is recognition that genders while undeniably biologically binary can still express themselves across a vast spectrum. Men can have long hair and soft voices and mannerisms.. Females can have short hair and gruff voices and mannerisms. To me it often feels likes its the trans and non binary community that is actually intolerant of this idea and seeks to push the notion that being different means you have to quickly find a whole new label for yourself instead of being ok with just being allowed to be on a different part of the binary spectrum end. Like what’s wrong with just being a soft spoken male who like frilly blouses? I don’t really get that
And no one is saying that you can't be a man who likes feminine things or a woman who likes masculine things. There are many people like that in the world and the trans community is not stopping them from expressing themselves. There's a difference between gender identity (what gender you are) and gender expression (how you express that gender). A man can dress up in typically feminine clothing (like drag) just because he enjoys wearing feminine clothes, and that's perfectly fine. There are however people who dress up in feminine clothing because they feel like that is what matches their gender identity better, for example someone born male wanting to wear feminine clothing because they don't identify as a man.
Besides, even though the concept of gender is a thing in a lot of cultures, that doesn't mean every culture has the same ideas of gender. The gender binary man/woman is something that has been spread by the Catholic church with colonization. Many cultures for example have a recognized "third gender", like Hawaii.
Physically speaking, sex is not binary (either or, exactly) but bimodal - that is, mostly pretty much the usual two but with all sorts of mixes, variations and degrees as well. A binary is one or the other, it cannot be a spectrum. A binary is two unconnected points, not a line. Everyone's body is different. You also seem to be mixing (and confusing?) different classes, like in your hair etc. examples. If you mean to be comparing two sides of the same thing, it's men/women and males/females, not men and females. It wasn't wrong and I agree, just mixed. Females can be (trans) men (or cis women, or non-binary) and yes, they can have any of those things. It's not about taking anything away or limiting or pushing other to be things, though some like to frame it like that. The argument is for the validity of the trans experience and including that as well, to also just be allowed to exist on a different part of the spectrum. It's to allow a possibility, not a demand for all to subscribe for themselves. Not "you have to", but "everyone may". Some may be over-eager to find a new comrade in gender, but that is then mistaken inclusion, not intolerance. The intolerant ones are the ones dismissing trans gender being a thing, denying their place on the spectrum being valid (note that you are talking about two different spectrums, one for sex, one for gender). Everyone may be who, what and how they are and like on the bimodal spectrum, including trans people. For some people being allowed to be trans doesn't mean anyone else must be. Labels also are just shorthand descriptors, and may fit and exist whether a person uses them or not. Finding a label for what you already are doesn't change you, only facilitates communication and understanding. Gender (mental and social) is related to sex yes, but the physical is not the same thing as the experience a person has. Usually corresponds but when that experience is at odds with the physical sex, you get transsexual transgender (why this is so is complicated and somewhat unclear, but it's a real persistent thing). Not all transgender people are transsexual that wish to alter their sex, they may be personally okay with their bodies, but being seen as the corresponding gender still feels wrong to them regardless how they are allowed to express it. There is a difference of their being and merely doing or expressing. An actor or reverse gender stereotypical person can DO the outward thing without BEING the gender inside. A transgender person needs to be seen and treated as their experienced gender, whatever their expression happens to be - they can be tomboys and tomgirls just as cis (just means not trans, only mentioned because there is a need to make the distinction) people can. Femininity and masculinity are just styles, what the culture recognizes as expressions and behaviors associated to a gender - associated, not the same. Genders are what the culture sees as the sexes being socially. Trans people in general very much agree you can be and stay your gender regardless of your style. Just that their gender is not the same as the gender corresponding to their physical sex they were born with, it feels wrong/bad. To answer you question, there is nothing wrong with being a soft spoken male (sex) who likes frilly blouses. Just don't call them a man (gender) if they happen to also be a trans woman. They may concede they are physically either wholly males or more or less modified male/female mixes but drawing attention to that can also be unpleasant and rude, even dangerous depending on surrounding situation. A soft spoken male (cis) man who likes frilly blouses however will still want to be called a man. There can also be a female man (trans man) who likes frilly blouses as well. All fine. The problem lies in assuming and insisting sex=gender. Your question pretty much only lightly implied gender and dealt with sex and expression. Perhaps you actually meant to ask "what’s wrong with just being a soft spoken man who like frilly blouses?" The answer is still, nothing's wrong with that. Just, like, trans women are not men, if that's what you were after, whether they like frilly things or not. Again, femininity and masculinity are something anyone can do and express - associated to but not the same as genders nor exclusive to them. Men and women are mental and social genders you can be. Sexes are classifications of the reproductive properties and roles of the body. I hope this helped in getting it.
I am from Russia, and there are difficulties with neutral language. Russian language has a division into feminine and masculine addresses, but at the same time, women's professions are called in the masculine gender, because it is considered neutral, but this is not true. Many women are trying to defend feminine gender markings in speech
I have heard about a similar discussion happening in Poland, with exactly the same reasoning. Even though it seems progressive on de surface, making women in certain professions use the masculine name is kind of pushing the idea that masculine = normal and neutral. But I understand both sides, in Poland some choose to use the masculine version and some the feminine version, whatever they think fits best!
One way around it I've seen is using pan/pani (mister/mrs) in front of the job titel, saying for example "Pani adwokat" instead of adwokatka...
Been waiting a long time for someone to bring this up in a video. Growing up as an English speaker neutral language has been normal for me it has been others who force gender where it grammatically isn't neccisary in English. Wereas when I was younger I also spoke welsh which is very much a gendered language and I am somewhat glad I didn't live in a welsh language community as I feel that would have made social transition even harder as those closest to me have to adjust most words in a sentence rather than just pronouns. I am now learning estonian (to gossip at a family wedding in the summer) and its a language even more neutral than english and it's so refreshing you never have to think about gender at all everyone is referred to the same :)
Also, I have been learning kernowek (cornish) while I have been living here and like welsh it has hurt a little bit existing in a heavily gendered language :')
That's awesome! I didn't even know Welsh was so gendered! I tried learning it but I gave up 😅
I had the same experience, although I am Polish, I was living in the Netherlands when I came out so I didn't have to deal with people adjusting their entire sentences, as Dutch isn't a very gendered language. I'm guessing Estonian has a one pronoun situation like Finnish? Love that!
Lovely to see other people who also like learning languages!
Wonderful video, thank you very much. A Polish genderfluid person here, who has lived in the UK, and now lives in Portugal. Totally relate to how different linguistic contexts call for a reimagining of yourself, including your own gender.
@@mattb1498 right? Fascinating how the language you speak forces you to reflect on how you present your gender identity! Thanks for sharing your perspective :)
you just earned yourself a subscriber I love you man 😊
Thank you so much! Glad you're enjoying my content ☺️
The first person to consistently gender me correctly was actually a Spanish speaking friend of mine, who consistently uses the -o suffix for me. At the time, it made me question whether or not I preferred that or the less known gender neutral suffix, but looking back, I really appreciate her support.
It must be difficult for trans people living in Spanish speaking places though, especially those who aren't out or have limited support. They basically have to choose between misgendering themselves or outing themselves, because there aren't many ways around using gendered language about yourself.
One funny thing though, that I'm just now reminded of, is that when I was learning Spanish, and still very much an egg, I kept using the -o suffix for myself. I kept being corrected about that but it just felt right ... for some reason.
Oh man I had the same thing back when I had Spanish class in high school, kept using -o for myself because it "sounded more natural to me" 🤨🥚
I think the very gendered languages like Spanish or polish go both ways when it comes to trans people, because either you notice the misgendering more because it's more than just pronouns, OR you get more affirmation if everything that is said to/about you is in the correct gender...
Cool that the algorithm recommended a fellow queer metalhead with an interest in languages ✨ I actually do enjoy the gendered nature of Polish at times, as you also get bombarded with the gendered language that you enjoy as well, if you're lucky enough to have supportive ppl around you that is. pozdrowionka, zasubowałam 😸
Aahh dziękuję bardzo :) welcome to the channel!
And yes, that is very true, once you do start being gendered correctly it is amazing in a language like polish, it was a huge thing for me when my family finally started using the right language for me :) always feels so nice to be called the right thing!
Hei, hauska tutustua 🙂
Being a Finnish trans person, it's true the non-gendered language is comfortable. Though there is no affirmation, there also is no misgendering - at least without expressly calling someone a gendered / sexed thing. Even without pronouns we still do have fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts and other gendered/sexed labels. Anyways, this meant for me I didn't really have to think about my gender growing up much, and only came to discover mine later.
Oh yes, of course, that makes sense. That's why I said pronouns were "the only issue" in quotation marks. Of course you'll still have to deal with being called someone's son/daughter/brother/sister.
But it's interesting that you say that there is no affirmation, I didn't even think of that... what if someone DOES want to use gendered pronouns but there are none available 😭
But it's very interesting to hear how the neutrality of Finnish affects trans people! Thanks for sharing :)
that was very interesting to watch and think about. thank u for sharing!
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
What is your definiton of being trans?
I don't have my "own" definition, but the definition of trans is not identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth!
I think the idea of gender bending across cultures is recognition that genders while undeniably biologically binary can still express themselves across a vast spectrum. Men can have long hair and soft voices and mannerisms.. Females can have short hair and gruff voices and mannerisms.
To me it often feels likes its the trans and non binary community that is actually intolerant of this idea and seeks to push the notion that being different means you have to quickly find a whole new label for yourself instead of being ok with just being allowed to be on a different part of the binary spectrum end. Like what’s wrong with just being a soft spoken male who like frilly blouses? I don’t really get that
Undeniably biologically binary? Have you never heard of intersex people?
And no one is saying that you can't be a man who likes feminine things or a woman who likes masculine things. There are many people like that in the world and the trans community is not stopping them from expressing themselves.
There's a difference between gender identity (what gender you are) and gender expression (how you express that gender). A man can dress up in typically feminine clothing (like drag) just because he enjoys wearing feminine clothes, and that's perfectly fine. There are however people who dress up in feminine clothing because they feel like that is what matches their gender identity better, for example someone born male wanting to wear feminine clothing because they don't identify as a man.
Besides, even though the concept of gender is a thing in a lot of cultures, that doesn't mean every culture has the same ideas of gender. The gender binary man/woman is something that has been spread by the Catholic church with colonization. Many cultures for example have a recognized "third gender", like Hawaii.
I'm a feminine trans man 😅
Physically speaking, sex is not binary (either or, exactly) but bimodal - that is, mostly pretty much the usual two but with all sorts of mixes, variations and degrees as well. A binary is one or the other, it cannot be a spectrum. A binary is two unconnected points, not a line. Everyone's body is different. You also seem to be mixing (and confusing?) different classes, like in your hair etc. examples. If you mean to be comparing two sides of the same thing, it's men/women and males/females, not men and females. It wasn't wrong and I agree, just mixed. Females can be (trans) men (or cis women, or non-binary) and yes, they can have any of those things.
It's not about taking anything away or limiting or pushing other to be things, though some like to frame it like that. The argument is for the validity of the trans experience and including that as well, to also just be allowed to exist on a different part of the spectrum. It's to allow a possibility, not a demand for all to subscribe for themselves. Not "you have to", but "everyone may". Some may be over-eager to find a new comrade in gender, but that is then mistaken inclusion, not intolerance. The intolerant ones are the ones dismissing trans gender being a thing, denying their place on the spectrum being valid (note that you are talking about two different spectrums, one for sex, one for gender). Everyone may be who, what and how they are and like on the bimodal spectrum, including trans people. For some people being allowed to be trans doesn't mean anyone else must be. Labels also are just shorthand descriptors, and may fit and exist whether a person uses them or not. Finding a label for what you already are doesn't change you, only facilitates communication and understanding.
Gender (mental and social) is related to sex yes, but the physical is not the same thing as the experience a person has. Usually corresponds but when that experience is at odds with the physical sex, you get transsexual transgender (why this is so is complicated and somewhat unclear, but it's a real persistent thing). Not all transgender people are transsexual that wish to alter their sex, they may be personally okay with their bodies, but being seen as the corresponding gender still feels wrong to them regardless how they are allowed to express it.
There is a difference of their being and merely doing or expressing. An actor or reverse gender stereotypical person can DO the outward thing without BEING the gender inside. A transgender person needs to be seen and treated as their experienced gender, whatever their expression happens to be - they can be tomboys and tomgirls just as cis (just means not trans, only mentioned because there is a need to make the distinction) people can. Femininity and masculinity are just styles, what the culture recognizes as expressions and behaviors associated to a gender - associated, not the same. Genders are what the culture sees as the sexes being socially. Trans people in general very much agree you can be and stay your gender regardless of your style. Just that their gender is not the same as the gender corresponding to their physical sex they were born with, it feels wrong/bad.
To answer you question, there is nothing wrong with being a soft spoken male (sex) who likes frilly blouses. Just don't call them a man (gender) if they happen to also be a trans woman. They may concede they are physically either wholly males or more or less modified male/female mixes but drawing attention to that can also be unpleasant and rude, even dangerous depending on surrounding situation. A soft spoken male (cis) man who likes frilly blouses however will still want to be called a man. There can also be a female man (trans man) who likes frilly blouses as well. All fine.
The problem lies in assuming and insisting sex=gender. Your question pretty much only lightly implied gender and dealt with sex and expression. Perhaps you actually meant to ask "what’s wrong with just being a soft spoken man who like frilly blouses?" The answer is still, nothing's wrong with that. Just, like, trans women are not men, if that's what you were after, whether they like frilly things or not. Again, femininity and masculinity are something anyone can do and express - associated to but not the same as genders nor exclusive to them. Men and women are mental and social genders you can be. Sexes are classifications of the reproductive properties and roles of the body.
I hope this helped in getting it.