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The Puzzle of the Ashkenazic Bottleneck | Jim Stone | TEDxBeaconStreet
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Scientists have wondered for many years why Ashkenazic Jews are disproportionally subject to certain genetic diseases.
A geneticist named Shai Carmi found a surprising answer using modern genome analysis tools. Carmi has written that in the fourteenth century the root stock of this now large population consisted of only about 350 breeding individuals. This finding can explain the disease proclivities -- but it contradicts virtually all historical sources.
This talk explores how to bring history and science back together. The only credible union of the two involves some disturbing conclusions and suggests the possibility of a slow but thorough medieval genocide. x This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community. Learn more at www.ted.com/tedx
I think it's important to note that the figure of 6 million Jews in the Roman Empire includes those still in Judea as well as all throughout the empire. Many of those Jews stayed in places like North Africa and Spain, stayed in Judea (there was a Jewish population of probably hundreds of thousands in the land of Israel up to the Middle Ages), or migrated to Babylon and Persia (lots of Jews went there from the Galilee during the third century), possibly other places like Yemen as well.
Ashkenazi Jews in particular are descendants of Jews who lived in southern Europe, mainly Italy, before migrating north. So the core population was much smaller than 6 million. I think it's quite possible that massacres, especially by Crusaders, as well as the plague may have played a part in the bottleneck though.
Correct. Thank you.
He also WAY overestimates the Jewish population of Europe. Around the 12th century CE there were no more than 750000 Jews in WORLD.
Esau didn't have 12 son's that's why,,, y'all from Jacob's brother....
Many jews were killed during the Plague. They were blamed for the Plague and burned at the stake.
@@corey1time897 Those are literally all mythological characters so it doesn’t matter anyway.
I am a geneticist and have given talks on this subject. I have come to the exact same conclusion, i.e. the Medieval Genocide of European Jews was highly effective, and explains the genetic record. One thing however is that Ashkenazi Jews are interesting in that there Genetic makeup indicates that the founding population was a 50:50 mixture of Middle Eastern and European DNA (most similar to Northern Italy). In addition, about half of all Jewish Men's Y-chromosomes have middle-eastern haplotypes. My thinking on this is that the Askenazi Jewish population got started by male Jewish traders settling in Italy and marrying local woman.
I read somewhere on line recently that the Romans took some Jews (predominantly/solely male) from the middle East to Italy as slaves and that at least some of them married local women. Do you think this could be true?
Ashkenazi jews are European converts
I gonna tell my wife we are cousins.
All humans are cousins
@@gabrielmiller1226 Ha!!! Right?! We’re all cousins on some level! 😂👊😂
What's her opinion on interbreeding?
😂
@@lorimav idk ask his niece/daughter.
A lot of speculation really, I'm very doubtful about his conclusions..
It's amazing that the Ashkenazi Jews of today are all descended from 330 people who were alive in 1350 AD.
Nonsense
ashkenazi are converted white European
@@ArifMo516I’m ashkenazi and my great grandparents were most definitely not what somebody would call “white”.
That is non-sense. The genetic data is clear, Ashkenazi Jews as a group lie right in the middle between Arabs and Italians. They are a wonderful mixture.
@@ArifMo516
@@warrenkruger1966Thank you. I don’t like to focus on genetics too much, considering much of my family was killed because of it, but I won’t allow people to deny my history. The fact that Ashkenazi Jews even exist today is a miracle, there probably were many other groups like us that died out.
10:10 he said if they drifted away there would be something in the oral tradition, then 5 seconds later he said so it must have been mass slaughter... and yet nothing in the oral tradition of the survivors? hmmmm....
right
Going from millions to 330 doesn't leave a lot of jewish survivors for the stories to be in their oral tradition at great length, depth, range, etc. As this guy mentions if millions drifted away there would be linguistic markers, genetic markers, and oral traditions in the communities the jews drifted through and to. Just look at the linguistic markers of historical events in places like Spain, the UK, the USA, etc. They adopted words, expressions, accents, and grammar from historical large scale population movements.
Yup. But there IS history. The priests weren't the only ones who could read and write. And they did. But not in the European languages. And usually as an aside in religious works on various topics. Which is why when he asked various secular academics in Israel, they had no clue. He didn't ask in the right places.
he says "jews were treated pretty well in this period, there's no way they were persecuted or converted" and then "there was a lot of intolerance in this period, they were killed in mass murder", I mean which one is going to be? or maybe he wasn't clear about the dates
I thought he was talking about the government in the first part and the general population in the second
@@user-qy9ys7ux6v a very poorly explained video
No. He argued the in *Poland* they weren't persecuted back then. In the western Europe they definitely were. Also, there are many descriptions of the massacres of Jews during the Crusades.
@@uriakramer _"...the western EU..."
There was no EU back then, bro!
EU and Europe are not synonyms.
@@uriakramer
At first we were treated well. Its a pattern that repeated a lot. The king of Poland at the time a Ki8ng Boleslav,saw the massive persecution of the Jews of WEurope and saw an opportunity and invited Jews to come in hoping we would kickstart their economy. So for the first few hundred years it wasn't so bad there. Jews were given various rights and priviledges to get us to come. Then things changed and the persecutions started there also.
Ashkenazi Jews are also very much intermarried. In my family tree there are multiple instances of individuals from different branches marrying. I have heard this anecdotally about Jews in Lithuania, where one of grandfathers came from. I think it was probably true of German Jews as well.
I'm a fan of genetics and history. This presentation started well yet deteriorated rapidly to myths and legends. A waste of 20 minutes.
A waste of a comment and internet server space
The only issue I have with his presentation, is the way he frames his conclusion.
The hypothesis seems at least possible. The Vatican record seems to loosely support it.
"a waste of 20 minutes" seems a bit harsh.
Everything Trump Touches Dies go read a wikipedia page before u waste everyone's time. The definition of Ashkenazi Jews should suffice.
@@alecpayne18 Everything Biden touches dies, but neither Trump nor Biden have anything to do with this topic.
I don't understand. You test current-day ashkenazi, whose ancestors didn't convert because if so they wouldn't be ashkenazi, and then you ask where are the people who didn't become their ancestors, and say they were killed? Couldn't they simply be the ones that didn't go to Poland, that stayed in the way, and became non-Ashkenazi.
They wouldn't be nearly annihilated with no written record of all the massacres. But look what you're saying, how could there have been all of those mass conversions of such a high number, and I kind of don't understand what you're saying.?
He addressed that - you'd see more genetic traces in Christian populations. We don't see them
@@stephengould4343 *** Don't know who this fellow is, but he has no clue about European History and even less about the Middle East during the same time ...
Yes something clearly amiss here. Some serious intelligence is needed.
Since we have solved far more complex problems such as deep understanding of how physics works I don't see why this can't be solved.
But there's a problem. Politics and identity 🙄!
One thing is clear and overlooked right now. The virtual genocide of the Palestinian population. But that is continually covered up and distorted by Israel with the backing of the U.S. because of the latter's geopolitical interests in the area. What's new!
You actually do see traces in the Christian populations. Many people of European descent in North America and Europe are finding out they have 1-2% Ashkenazi heritage with no traceable ancestor. Meaning, it's most likely that large numbers of Ashkenazi and Sephardic, adopted local customs and eventually integrated into European communities. We can see the same phenomenon occurring in North America and Europe today, where many Jews of all backgrounds are simply becoming part of the broader population with less and less attachment to their Jewish heritage. The most LIKELY answer is it was a combination of all of these reasons. Any one on it's own isn't as probable to have caused such a decrease. But when you combine integration, migration, dispersal, atrocity, plague and other possibilities, all of a sudden you have a much much larger number of Ashkenazi Jews leaving the larger group.
I'm not convinced Jim can rule out dispersal that easily, unless you were going to have a large genetic testing of the population. Though, as people are starting to check their DNA on ancestry websites, more people are discovering Ashkenazic ancestry.
Bruh it’s also interesting how the Rhineland massacres existed and that most Jews stayed in Germany after them. Can’t believe this guy missed that. In addition I read a little bit about a rabbi that lived 500 years ago who went to Poland at some point, but went out of favor and went back to Germany
No such thing as European Jewish in Mitochondrial DNA .. just European - they never were that’s why they “ disappeared .. this is the most current data but we shall see..
@@anthonylemkendorf3114 the Judean DNA is the male line, not the female line
How about conversion?
And another massacre was the plague massacres
I do think that a lot of early Jews converted or otherwise blended into the European population. It doesn't explain everything, but it does explain a lot. Besides, we assume that Jews have always stuck together and never split up even though there's evidence worldwide that that that occurred. Also, there's this assumption that unlike the 10s of thousands of tribal peoples that have existed that Jews are the only people that never marry outside or convert to something else, which is complete bunk. I do believe that unorganized mass pogroms killed millions of Jewish people over the centuries which led to a bottleneck among those Jews who actually remained Jews, but many, like a few of my ancestors converted centuries ago.
Rodney Stark in his book "the Rise of Christianity" posits that Jews in the Roman diaspora evolved into a hybrid religious cultural group in that they spoke and many worshipped in Greek, adopted Pagan habits, and when Christianity developed, saw in it a continuity with Judaism and were ripe for conversion. Combine this with the edict to go forth a convert, Christian evangelists from the Holy Land would likely have first gone to Jewish communities in the diaspora where their message was more easily understood. As such, many Jews in the diaspora converted to Christianity which had much more in common than Paganism. Also, he refers to "God-fearers" who were gentiles who admired and followed the monotheism and teaching of Judaism but did not want or were not able to formally convert, as being a large part of the "Jews" in the diaspora and many of the early converts.
His case is based on confusing the small population that became East European Ashkenazi Jews in the Middle Ages with the whole world population of Roman, Spanish, and Middle Eastern Jews over a thousand years. Very sloppy logic with no supporting facts, just speculation.
@@Sheen023 According to the genetic testing their paternal & maternal lineage is predominantly middle eastern.
@@Sheen023 No.
@@Dotsetc??
@@Sheen023
Exactly
Most nowadays jews are Ashkenazi of khazars origin. DNA proved that. Caspian sea used to be called khazars sea in Persians, Turkish and Azerbaijani maps, some of them until now.
Most of them come from Russia and close countries close to their roots khazars.
@@user-qy9ys7ux6v
DNA proved that Ashkenazi are of Khazars origion, never been Semites, never been from middle east.
He's missing something super obvious... WHY don't the Ashkenazi jews have a oral tradition and writings talking about what happened? As they're experts at remembering history in general & could read/write and could easily pass messages to OTHER Jews outside the region as this only works if they genocide was 100% & all records were destroyed.
But they did keep records of the hypocrisies, and slanders that were causing the public attitude. As the professor said, this was the result of a widespread trend, and so the cultural attitude was all there was to observe and that would not have needed a lot of communicating anyway, since they all were dealing with it. They do talk about it now though a lot.
I wrote a similar comment. While he has a positive message, he is simply wrong on the facts. Jews were ultra-literate. They kept records of every tragedy and celebration. When they commemorate the destruction of their temple/Jerusalem each year, they read a book of lamentations. It chronicles tragedies that befell them since the great exile. The absence of a record to back this man's thesis, is proof enough that he is simply wrong.
@Herbal Shaman Are they the post Babylonian exile or converts? Those are mutually exclusive!
If I had to guess, you sound like a Muslim repeating something you heard in order to fight any Jewish connection to Israel.
there is. The Hebrew Chronicles of Mainz.
The Bible is a good place to start. I am studying it now about them.
I think he is underestimating conversion as a cause. Yes it's true that both Jewish and Christian authorities discouraged mating between the religions, but we know that authorities cannot generally regulate such things very well. If you are attracted to someone you will try to find some way to get close to them.
I am 8 % Ashkenazi, were are my relatives here?
Me.
32.3% here
Hi cousin. Yes we are.
Is it true that you guys are khazar turks?
I may be a distant relative.. supposedly at least 30th cousins..
Extrapolating from the present attitudes and events to the past colors what one is observing and is not an approach a historian should take in my opinion. Especially considering that no facts other than lack of genetic diversity are actually presented.
well, this sounds interesting but I can barely hear him.
I thought I was the only one who could hardly hear him.
What's the purpose of this anti-semitic talk?
@@RudydeGroot , I may have missed something.
What are you referring to, in qualifying the presentation as such?
that's just his Depends sound in the background. You can filter it out.
put the volume up dork
the idea there were only 350 breeding Ashkenazi Jews in the 14th Century is complete idiocy.
That's literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard..
DNA doesn’t lie
@@gr4215 0_o
That might be a good point. Now, he said the calculation was good, but it could be good to take a second look at that. He should have done it, instead he just rambled without evidence...
I had my DNA tested by My Ancestry, an Israeli company from my understanding. I am about 85% Ashkenazi, a mixture of Italian, Greek and other South European, and 2% Nigerian/West African(!). My own immediate family are very Reform Jews who came from London and Brooklyn NY. Our parents have passed and were buried as Jews, The only one of my siblings who has children (my niece and nephews) married into a Chinese family. We have hung onto our culture(s) but are not very religious at all.
I'm proud of my Jewish background and actually think it's a shame that the language my grandparents spoke, Yiddish, was specifically not taught to my parents and can now mostly be only heard in Haredi/ultraOrthodox communities that for religious reasons would have nothing to do with me or my family.
The point of all this is that we are all more mixed than we think. I believe that discrimination based on religious traditions, both internal and antisemitism from nonJews, plays a part in the genetic bottleneck. The forces at play are still happening now. Us secular Jews are 'breeding out', meeting Sephardic Jews, or are more tolerant of people not of Ashkenazic background adopting Ashkenazic culture or the Jewish religion. Genetically, this is good as this reduces the impact of Jewish genetic disease.
Hello possible cousin from the homeland. I’m just researching my dna & were clueless to the possibility of being Ashkenazi at all!! Figured we were more Native American. I’m in rural Rocky Mountains and clueless on Judaism. I’m excited for a new spiritual road ahead! Glad to see another validated dna link in this discussion! Wondering if we really are such a small ancient order! Shalom!!
For a more scientific take on the Jewish origin debate, recent DNA analysis of Ashkenazic Jews - a Jewish ethnic group - revealed that their maternal line is European. It has also been found that their DNA only has 3% ancient ancestry which links them with the Eastern Mediterranean (also known as the Middle East) - namely Israel, Lebanon, parts of Syria, and western Jordan. This is the part of the world Jewish people are said to have originally come from - according to the Old Testament. But 3% is a minuscule amount, and similar to what modern Europeans as a whole share with Neanderthals. So given that the genetic ancestry link is so low, The majority of ashkenazi can't be descended from the tribe of Judah, reason being, the pressence of the Coahim gene. In a significant percentage of Jewish males across the world, it is very common. It is also common in many "nonjewish" groups such as Italians and southern Spaniards.
Source: I made it the f*** up
Very interesting!
Why is no one mentioning that Jews were not only in one direction. Hello Africa?
Sephardim, not Ashkenazim, mostly. Like my daughter's husband's family that went from Belmas in Spain to Fez in Morroco.
why do they never speak of the(jews) in west africa? its definitely sad to see people ignore jews just because they went below the sahara@@yehuditrouzaud5878
Makes more sense to say that the plague wiped out the Jewish population. Absence of historical evidence doesn't provide a rationale to speculate on an unsubstantiated historical event; quite the opposite. Wouldn't this contradict his winners bias argument either way? As an aside, I have 6% Ashkenazic genes in me as a Mexican and most of my genetic stock comes from Spain; clearly my Jewish folk didn't migrate to Poland. The diseases he references would only kick in if you have two recessive alleles. My Jewish ancestors were definitely having children outside of their own group to not have those recessive genes manifest themselves.
Some. Not all. Jews did get and die from the plague and you can see in accounts such as the diary of Gluckel of Hamlein how even the rumor that there was plague in the area would send people fleeing in a panic. However, the historical record said also that Jews died in smaller numbers than the surrounding populations (possibly because various Jewish practices resulted in better hygiene plus some separation from the rest of the population) but that triggered massacres because their neighbors decided that meant the Jews were responsible.
@@yehuditrouzaud5878 rite on shvesterle !!
Jewish law has hygiene written into it such as ritual bathing (mikveh) and daily hand washing as well as other things like not eating certain animal parts that are close to the entrails. this vastly differed from the average Christian layman at the time.
@@queeneggplant well bubeleh you hit the nail right on the kop.
Zay gebensht mit mazl un brokhe....Sholem🕎
Colonial-era Mexican families descend from Sephardic Jews, not from Ashkenazic Jews, but some ethnicity calculators at 23andMe and FamilyTreeDNA can mislabel these DNA segments as "Ashkenazic" when they are simply shared with Ashkenazim or similar to Ashkenazim.
I'm not convinced. Not saying it didn't happen, nor can happen, but even in the Middle Ages there would still be some clues - manuscripts written by other states witnessing attrocities; songs; poems; place names. There would also, surely be some reference in Jewish works - where literacy was more widespread.
The figure of 6 million Jews in the Roman Period seems very high too - it would make the population of present day Italy about 60 million. The population of England in 1600 was still only about 3 million; France maybe 6-7million. Seems to me there were fewer Jews to begin with, a long 'uninteresting' and unascribed period of assimilation (which also party explains the non-Jewish DNA in Ashkenazi Jews); conversion (priests and individuals and families turning a blind eye to converting Jews or a Jewish woman, say, marrying into the family) and, of course yes, genocidal killings.
I don't understand. He first argues that it can't be persecution b/c Jews were treated well in the Roman Empire and dark ages but then says it's due to mass slaughter. Those two arguments seem to contradict each other....completely. Unless I'm missing something.
You’re missing something. ADD is a thing, but stupidity is permanent. Let’s hope its ADD. 👍
I think you missed or misunderstood some of what was said.
It's a reasonable hypothesis, is what I took away.
You didn't misunderstand it. Your just looking at the wrong people. If you looked at the real jews it would make since. Who were the people ruling Europe during the dark ages until the 1400s? They were slaughtered and kicked out of Spain and Portugal and went into slavery.
yikes. Would be happy to hear what I missed if you care to explain.
@@philippesantini2425 what did I miss?
Weak evidence
As I'm hearing this I keep having this nagging thought pop into my head, "what if Ashkenazi were an especially susceptible gene pool to plague?" Is that possible?
No. In fact, because they had a tradition of ritual handwashing and bathing, they had a slightly better survival rate, which was one of the reasons they were accused of causing the plague.
Interesting.
Makes you think.
How terrible we humans are!
Sooo sad.😢
Let's talk about the genetic diseases that the Ashkenazi gets !
This guy's arguments don't seem very solid to me.
Example: He said only Priests were literate. Actually, there were some other ppl who were literate, namely, Jewish men, especially rabbinic scholars of that era (inluding the Tosafists and Rishonim) of which we have plenty of surviving literature...
Well articulated but unscientific
Who is Jim Stone? Is he an academic? In which discipline?
I don't necessarily reject his views; but I'm not sure what framework he's working in.
It solidified an almost 50/59 blend of southern European and levantine ancestry for Ashkenazim
Who is Jim Stone and what is his relationship to the subject if he's neither a geneticist nor a historian? What's his discipline?
Eh. No need for an "appeal to authority" There are plenty of "historians" and "geneticists" who get it completely wrong or have agendas of their own. Like Eran Elhaik and Schlomo Sand. I mean, sure it's helpful to question, but it's not something that should make anyone automatically conclude his theories are wrong.
@@jessereichbach588 What in my comment makes you rhink I'm going to "automatically" conclude anyrhing? My question is a question. It's not rhetorical.
@@ejb7969 Fair enough. It's just the 90% of comments stating he's not a geneticist or historian conclude with "nothing he says matters". Which is fallacious. Sorry if I mistakenly lumped you into this rather large group of nitwits. My mistake.
@@jessereichbach588 Appreciated. And I do agree with your first sentence, that credentialed people can "get it completely wrong or have agendas of their own" when talking about their associated discipline. Many fields are so broad that experts in one narrow area can easily go off the rails outside of their specialty, with or without an agenda. (With: Scott Atlas on Covid; without: Linus Pauling on Vitamin C in the 1970s.)
@@ejb7969 I would also suggest that there are "hobbyists" or "pseudo-amateurs" in many fields that know as much as many "professionals". Obviously this is going to be less frequent than the amount that believe they know as much as professionals lol. But they do exist. You can see this a lot in Amateur Historians as history is something not necessitating a mathematical or complex scientific skill. One of the largest areas being War and Battle "Historians". I find that those fields where the data and scientific material is broadly available and to an extent understandable, you will find more cross-over between amateur and professional since they are often using the same evidentiary material. At least, once those with the scientific skill and access to necessary laboratory mechanisms have completed their side of the work. Such as carbon-dating or geological record.
Welcome to the grievance ages: If can't explain something, a genocide must have happened.
Not scientific. I would expect some caution about this conclusion and alternative hypotheses.
oh shut up
@@onefreebird1 why should he ?
@@Yalah20 Because the scientific process of skeptical hypothesis testing is more conducive to truth than wild speculation.
There are so many plausible hypotheses to be considered.
Very unconvincing argument
This is really quite off in many ways.
How is it off?
Sooo how did so many ashkenazi jews show up in eastern europe? He said they didn't escape to eastern europe in large numbers? IT IS IN THE HISTORY BOOKS. Khazars, Khazars, it is fully documented, please hit the pc incorrect "ignore" button again.
The Khazar theory has been debunked so many times it is getting boring. I wonder how these Turkish Khazars had a language, Yiddish, that is extremely close to German - so close, that if you're speak German, you can understand alot of it? Did they head West to Germany before trekking back East to Poland from Turkey? This theory is so full of holes you could make a sieve out of it....
Oh THE HISTORY BOOKS. 🤪
I looked at the Eurogenes K13 Oracle Populations of my maternal Ashkenazi Jewish DNA relative matches.
My maternal grandmother's mother Ruth Rosenthal was Ashkenazi Jewish.
Her father, Max Rosenthal immigrated from Romania,and her mother Irene Hosias immigrated from Latvia.
What I noticed is that my maternal Ashkenazi Jewish DNA relatives seem to be genetically close to Sicilians,Southern Italians,Greeks, Italian Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Algerian Jews.
Most of the European of Ashkenazi Jews seems to come from Western Mediterraneans.
Israel is actually a country in the Eastern Mediterranean region.
I looked at Ashkenazi Jewish DNA matches with different Mitochondria DNA haplogroups and Y DNA haplogroups.
Even though there is diversity of haplogroups, the oracle population sharing are similar.
A 2010 study on Jewish ancestry by Atzmon-Ostrer et al. stated "Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry", as both groups - the Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews - shared common ancestors in the Middle East about 2500 years ago. The study examines genetic markers spread across the entire genome and shows that the Jewish groups (Ashkenazi and non Ashkenazi) share large swaths of DNA, indicating close relationships and that each of the Jewish groups in the study (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi) has its own genetic signature but is more closely related to the other Jewish groups than to their fellow non-Jewish countrymen. The study also found that with respect to non-Jewish European groups, the population most closely related to Ashkenazi Jews are modern-day Italians. The study speculated that the genetic-similarity between Ashkenazi Jews and Italians may be due to inter-marriage and conversions in the time of the Roman Empire. It was also found that any two Ashkenazi Jewish participants in the study shared about as much DNA as fourth or fifth cousins.
The Khazar story is not true, but the Rhineland persecution is true. The Rhenish "Shum" cities were known as the cradle of Ashkenazi Jews. On my father's side, I have a line that goes back to the three Jewish cities of Shpeyer, Worms, and Mainz. (SHUM). My father's father's mother emigrated from Mayence with her family after Napoleon took over. They moved to Pennsylvania.I know Napoleon is known as friendly to Jews, but that family was culturally more German than French. The massacres and forced conversions began in 1096. First Crusade. Ultimately, vast numbers of those Jewish refugees resettled in eastern Europe. Thus the anomaly of Yiddish (a German language) being spoken by Jews living among nations of Slavs, like Russians, Poles, Ukrainians.
The Crusaders were NOT like "Dschihadists", they fought against real Dschihadists. Complete Middle East was once christian und conquered by islamic armies in the centuries before crusades und the first Crusade was an answer to a call for help of Alexious I. Commenus, Emperor of Byzanz, a christian land - today it is Istanbul, because of the conquer through islamic armies later.
langnasenaffe german boy shut up !!
@Alexander Rummel Before: English is not my native language. So sorry for every grammatical fault. :D
The Roman Empires state religion was christianity since the year 391. Then, 395, after the splitting oft western and eastern rome eastern rome was a christian country. And the middle east was part of the eastern roman empire. if the peoples there were christian or pagan I do not know. But it was owned by the christian eastern roman empire and muslim armied conquered it.
It took about 800 years till the muslim armies stood on the walls of the city of Bazantium and then Alexious I. Commenus called for help - and the pope called for the first crusade.
Dchihadists liberated Arabia and North Africa and Asia minor from 400 years of Christian occupation. There were 2 reconoquestas in the region.
Richtig
But on the way they practiced on the Jews they encountered. Particularly encouraged if they owed them money. Wiped out whole communities in the same day. They were so feared that there were people who committed suicide when news came that they were approaching. There actually is a reacord. The priests weren't the only ones who could read and write. Most Jews could as well. And did.
It was not forbidden to learn to read in the Middle Ages. This guy’s not exactly rock solid on his facts. By his own admission he’s neither a professional geneticist nor a professional historian. His hypothesis doesn’t make much sense.
I think what he says makes a lot of sense but he made no mention of Sephardic jews. Of those millions of jews in the Roman empire wouldn't many of them have been Sephardic Jews?
Well, people who would become the Sephardim and Mizrachim. The split in traditions was just developing at the same point as the bottleneck took place (which was probably really over a 100-150 year period. Not all at once).
Hey, the comments here are pretty critical. A lot of the criticisms are levied against claims that actually make sense, but might require some background info or good notetaking. I heard him make a couple mistakes, but they seem like he misspoke. Academics generally agree with his conclusion.
Which academics? None that I’m aware of. He has no evidence for his theory.
I am a Jain but after seeing my genetic tests found I am having jews ancestry!
Wow,, Jain? I can't believe.
Things that make you go hmmm???
It was real in my mind
Its fake
@@alecpayne18 No, it's true.
Pogroms in Europe since the Crusade up to the 30 Year War happened regularly. The whole oral History around those Progroms are to be found allover Europe.
Whenever a City banned their Jews they were „vogelfrei“, every good Christian could feel entitled to kill this homeless Wanderer.
Only if a powerful Bishop or a strong higher Nobleman declared them to be his „Mündel“ they might have another 30 Year of relativ Security.
I am not a Historian but I am quite sure that in the Bishop Citys and surrounding Monasteries one could find written Evidence.
Over 200 Years many homeless Wanderer could get killed and others changed into Christianity.
But that the late Middleage was a deadly Time for Jews is a quite but known Truth.
A tiny population in the 14th century? I’m pretty sure I read the bottleneck was in the 9th century
No. It was in the 14th century
@@maxsmart99 The bottleneck occurred EARLIER than the 14th century, as we know now as a result of a genetic study of Tzarfati Jews from late-12th-century Norwich, England. Tzarfati Jews were some of the ancestors of Ashkenazim.
2 things here. First the estimate for the number Jews in the Roman empire at 7 million is an old estimate it has been said by historians it may be well wrong. Secondly the Ashkenazi may be descended from relatively few immigrants from Germany to Poland/Lithuania.
It's most likely they descend from less than 100-200 individuals who migrated into the Roman Empire in the first few centuries CE. Which is why Ashkenazi Jews have predominantly southern European heritage mixed with their Jewish heritage. Like Italian, Greek etc... Which is also partly why Ashkenazi Jews often appear so similar to Italians probably and why you can usually find Ashkenazi actors playing Italians in many movies. As time went on French, German, Dutch, Austrian etc.. admixed into the population. But the foundation is mostly Mid Eastern and Southern European.
While I sympathize with the spirit of his lecture, I believe he's dead wrong on the numbers. If the Jewish population of Europe had been driven down to just a couple of thousand there would have been a record of such a catastrophe in Jewish history. There's no record of such a genocide even within the horrible depictions of the Crusader massacres in Jewish lore. Such an event would have been noted among the two or three thousand who were left, don't you think? According to most geneticists the population numbers were larger, maybe 25-30 thousand, which doesn't include the Jews already in Polish lands and other parts of Eastern Europe before the Jewish migration eastward from Western Europe.
As a rabbinical scholar you’re fully right. The problem is that the secular world has no proper understanding of these material that I’m forwarding to you. you can read some rabbinical books one of them is called “saider hadores”, “Megillah Yuvon.” And “Megillah eivuh” also there is a poetry book that Jews read every year in the fast day of Tisha B’uv” called the “kinus”. As well a lot of details are written in diaries called “ the pinkus”. Thanks
talk about your circumcision on the 8 th day lol
The Ashkenazi, whose origins go back to the Khazars of the Caucasus, have the right to convert to Judaism, but they do not have the right to kill and displace the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine.
I mean their necks are pretty thin, but I wouldn’t go that far!
Can't hear you
This is far FAR beyond Ancient Aliens territory. Self described amateur Historian and amateur Geneticist comes up with a theory, then totally discounts at least 1000 years of history to make it fit, and thus summarily declares 'history' to be wrong and himself to be right. Plus, no-one else thought of it before him. His idea that a coordinated slaughter of millions of people dispersed across towns and cities of Europe took place, that somehow the dozens of fragmented and warring polities got together in a unprecedented coordinated action to wipe out the Jews Europe-wide with 99.9% success and accuracy - BUT at the same time managed to keep it a super-secret from pesky Historians (and basically any observers or record keepers at all) is in itself beyond fantastical. Not even science fiction can hold this level of reality-bending. That's like keeping the crusades a secret, something that millions are indirectly or directly involved with, taking place across a continent over multiple human lifetimes, something that affected the course of human history. The idea that it was not recorded because it didn't make the 'winners' look good... I don't even know where to start with that, I am amazed this speculation and disregard for 1000 years of human historical knowledge can be taken seriously by anyone at all. If it was true, you would pretty much discount any history and anything we know beyond living memory because the historical record is so easily shown to be lacking of any accuracy at all, as laid out in the video. All you need to do is come up with a theory and then say 'Hey, guess what, recorded History is wrong and my new theory is right,'.
Next LevelBros No, he actually presents indisputable scientific evidence that no unbiased geneticist disputes.
He may be an amateur, but his research and theories are all drawn from the findings of established scientists and historians. Its not new. Though opinions may vary on the scale or detail of his conclusions, the historic records showing horrible violence against Jews during the Middle Ages is widely available and not just from the Vatican.
@@ceebee4750 they were booted from multiple countries bc they made a habit of sacrificing Christian children. Use free/spoke.
@@teddmented The only scientific evidence was that there was a DNA bottleneck. Mr. Stone has no scientific or archaeological data to support his own theory.
I looked at the Eurogenes K13 Oracle Populations of my maternal Ashkenazi Jewish DNA relative matches.
My maternal grandmother's mother Ruth Rosenthal was Ashkenazi Jewish.
Her father, Max Rosenthal immigrated from Romania,and her mother Irene Hosias immigrated from Latvia.
What I noticed is that my maternal Ashkenazi Jewish DNA relatives seem to be genetically close to Sicilians,Southern Italians,Greeks, Italian Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Algerian Jews.
Most of the European of Ashkenazi Jews seems to come from Western Mediterraneans.
Israel is actually a country in the Eastern Mediterranean region.
I looked at Ashkenazi Jewish DNA matches with different Mitochondria DNA haplogroups and Y DNA haplogroups.
Even though there is diversity of haplogroups, the oracle population sharing are similar.
A 2010 study on Jewish ancestry by Atzmon-Ostrer et al. stated "Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry", as both groups - the Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews - shared common ancestors in the Middle East about 2500 years ago. The study examines genetic markers spread across the entire genome and shows that the Jewish groups (Ashkenazi and non Ashkenazi) share large swaths of DNA, indicating close relationships and that each of the Jewish groups in the study (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi) has its own genetic signature but is more closely related to the other Jewish groups than to their fellow non-Jewish countrymen. The study also found that with respect to non-Jewish European groups, the population most closely related to Ashkenazi Jews are modern-day Italians. The study speculated that the genetic-similarity between Ashkenazi Jews and Italians may be due to inter-marriage and conversions in the time of the Roman Empire. It was also found that any two Ashkenazi Jewish participants in the study shared about as much DNA as fourth or fifth cousins.
If Stone's theory were true, you would think that there would be some writing about these genocides coming from the myriad literate and scholarly Jews who lived in every corner of Ashkenaz during every century of the diaspora. Also, I would love to see the mathematical modeling that made it possible that 10 million Jews originated from only 330 Jews 1000 years ago. I'm not doubting it, I just would find it very interesting to see how that plays out century to century. Where and when the migrations (and how many people) took place.
Bruh, dithering nonsense. How can we accept a hypothetical genocide without a shred of evidence, based on 3 straw-man hypotheses that you selected? That’s called compound delusion. Ted shouldn’t allow ungrounded tales, it’s bad for humanity.
Not a delusion. The priests weren't the only ones who knew how to write. So could the Jews. But they wrote in Hebrew or Yiddish for our own needs. Man asked a bunch of secular academics instead of Torah scholars so he didn't get the answer he wanted because the academics don't study those sources for history.
Can we conclude also that Sephardim enjoyed a much better life among the Muslims?
You cant hear a single word. 😢
He way underestimates assimilation in Roman and Greek times. And in the middle ages Jews were always moving around Europe, not in mass migrations, but in smaller numbers. With disbursement comes attrition. In the Talmud it says only 20% of the Israelites left Egypt with Moses.
Mr. Stone is also incorrect about who was literate in the Middle Ages. The Nobility and merchant classes were literate. Also Jewish men were taught hebrew so they could pray. Yiddish (a mix of Hebrew and German) has been around since the 10th century. It uses the same alphabet as Hebrew. So the Jews had a high literacy rate in Written Yiddish.
The only thing I agree with Mr. Stone is the that there was a bottle neck. But his theory has an absence of evidence, which is not "evidence"
A very scientific & refreshing approach at citing the known history of the Ashkenazim and attempting to methodically connect the blurry dots of their dispersal.
It's not scientific, it's completely fake, and nonsensical.
Why did Ted have this dude on to spitball..
It was real in my... imagination. Thanks science man!
Its fake this is entirely ahistorical
"It was real in my imagination. In my imagination, it was true, I gave the apple to her." - Herman Rosenblat
can you explain why? I am curious. not that I like his explanation.
@@alexs.9912 explain what?
Wasn't the Otoman empire durring that time? Wouldn't its intollerance of those reluctant to convert to islam have had a large roll for this supposedly-mysterious evidence of mass slaughter?
no, otomans never made it to the western europe
The Ottomans actually let in the Jews in the 1400s.
Oh please! Could please leave that islamophobia and racism aside and look at history with a rational understanding? ! Ottomans were not genocidal against jews at all ! Infact, they provided shelter for jews!
@Aescher Mae, no because Islam at that time was very tolerant, it was a sin to kill others of the Book. It was only Christianity that was intolerant at that time, in the city of Jueralism under Islamic rule Christians, Jews and Muslim co-existed, the Crusades ruined that coexistence .
@@mikeaskme3530 not only in Jerusalem, rather jews and christians existed peacefully in all traditional muslim societies.
The jews converted to all religions
Thank you for telling us the truth other people hid from us.
It would be helpful to get a clearer understanding of what 330 "breeding individuals" means. The speaker makes it sound as though only 330 people living then have descendants who are alive today. Forgive my audacity, but I find that extremely difficult to believe. For example, there is a fair amount of scientific consensus that all people living today have genes from four women who lived in Africa in pre-historic times. However, that doesn't mean that we have genes _only_ from those four women, just that the descendants of those four women. Rather, it means that those four women are distinctive in that they're the only people whose genes are present in _every_ person alive today.
For someone who admits that he knows little about history or genetics, declaring that the rest of the genetic history of the Jews is wrong is pretty audacious.
As you say your understanding of genetics is wrong. All our genetics goes back to that small group. This is always true in any species. The difference in genetics today is the accumulation and spread of mutations since then.
Geneticists are confident that the Yiddish Jews (not necessarily all Jews) descend from a very small founder population.
There is genetic data from mitochondrial DNA that suggests that today’s Ashkenazi were all derived from about three hundred women. That’s what the genetics says, so even if it is hard for you to believe, genetic evidence is very strong.
Tolerance was high and low at the same time?
Sometimes the higher ups welcomed Jews, but the peasants were very prejudiced. Also, there were borrowers who wanted to drive away Jews so they would not have to repay their debts.
Ashkenazi isn’t an ethnicity it’s a tribe of people who have their origins in Europe…. Races are European Africans south Asians and orientals ….
This is what it is. His.story wrote by the king that won. Always was thus. Denial of a idea does not change its origin. This is why we wander. And fight back. Nice attempt to explain why.
I don't buy it. For one thing, he doesn't distinguish between Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews. My understanding is that there were always more Sephardic and non-Ashkenazi Jews until the Inquisition than Ashkenazis. Another thing, the Roman Empire wasn't just Europe. I think the author deliberately combined the two groups to make the Ashkenazi set seem larger than it was. 6 million Ashkenazi during the Roman period in Europe seems a bit off. I think it's to cynically promote the idea that Jews were constantly being genocided when it's really that there weren't that many Ashkenazis. Besides, after supposedly being wiped out , why did they stay? More likely, there were never that many Ashkenazi to start with and they grew in size later and the vast majority other Jewish weren't actually in Europe to begin with.
I guess it’s a miracle my children are here.
Many Jewish people were literate throughout history. There are records of the Rhineland massacres of 1096. Why no mention of this?
Dna identifies your regional origin and Ashkenazi Jews originate in Eastern Europe namely around Poland
So who is ashkenazi descent?! These comments make me think we’re all ashkenazi but who has verified it? One other commenter and myself seem to be aware of our dna here as Ashkenazi. Are we really not a bottle necked group as suggested?
Never heard of Ashkenazi till ancestry told me it existed. In me!
No offense to anyone maybe Ted talks has it wrong here but
I were hoping to find other Ashkenazi ‘cousins’ commenting. That makes a suggestion to me about our dna.
Close your eyes watching this and imagine Goofy :D
I only have the apoc3 Ashkenazi longevity gene.
Not true Poland had ovens also
Interesting
Mass slaughter wouldn't account for 6 million deaths back in the day. Look into both mass conversions to Christianity and Islam. For instance look at Palestinians' genes sequences and compare them to Sephardic Jews. The Ashkenazi Jews are a smaller subgroup that split off to Europe, hence the small gene pool.
Gog and magog
Zeeshan Hanif Truth
...have nothing to do with Ashkenazi Jews.
@Joyce Williams Explain what?
@@sim3onbk2 There all descendants of Japheth
Hardly a revelation. Jewish liturgy records this in the sidur, via the piyutim. So do the Rishonim. Most 16 year-old yeshiva educated boys and girls could have told you this.
Yes. Secular academics in Israel, unless he hit lucky and got someone with a Yeshiva education, which does happen sometimes, aren't going to be able to tell him. It wasn't a mystery at all. He just didn't ask the right sources.
It seems like somebody like Maimonides would've recorded this decimation?
Some. But he was in Spain and then North Africa (Egypt. He was the Sultan's doctor). So he mostly wrote about his own experiences. He did talk a little bit about the Jewish community in France, particularly the Torah scholars.That was in relation to his own family history. He did have a largish and long correspondence with the Jews in Yemen, so we also know about the hard time they were having.
Rhineland Massacres existed
Jim brings up a very convincing argument that Ashkenazi are not related to ancient Jews by blood. If we trust the genetic analysis that suggests that there were 300 people being the genetic origin in the 14th century, this means that Ashkenazi could not belong to the tribe of Juda or any other tribes mentioned in Bible. They probably came out of some village in Eastern Europe the same way as slavic people and were developing along Polish slavs, etc. They might have accepted judaism at some stage and invited the authentic clergery , hence the input of male genetic material and an absense of female lines.
There is zero relationship between his claims of mass slaughter and your claim that Jews aren’t frothe Middle East. If anything he says the opposite, but that wasn’t his point.
Common behavoiur in genocides
Ridiculous, killing that many wouldn't be possible especially when they could of blended in with the euro population, they look close enough too.
It was only *unconverted* Jews who could not marry Christians. The Church always welcomed converts.
A lot of grabble in this. It's wierd to try and see genocide everywhere.
Why you don't consider that they immigrated to the Eastern countries trough Russia and Turkey during many coincidents and wars that took place at that time, and in almost 200 years they were probably forced or they eagerly wanted to homogenize with their target countries and they converted to Islam not to Christianity.
The Jewish diaspora goes as far as India and China.
He has family
Who is this guy? He’s got no credentials and very little background in Judaic history. When actual historians and geneticists “don’t like” your story, what are the odds that you’re the one who’s right? Pretty tiny. Has *any* scholar endorsed this guy? And btw the name was Richard the Lionheart, not “Lionhearted.” Mass slaughter on the scale he’s suggesting would have left some traces, even in the Middle Ages. He thinks that historians before him couldn’t have come up with this story? With no evidence to back him up, he’s basically just making stuff up. Sorry, I appreciate his sympathetic attitude, but he’s just not credible.
Maybe it wasn't 6mil but 6.66mil?
Roma Yeap, SOS
The Roma are the only one worse LOL.
666mil you mean?
Around 1450, Johannes Gutenberg introduced the first movable type printing system in Europe. Printed Bibles were distributed leading to protestantism. Before that time the Bible wasn't read in most places because they didn't have one. The verses from Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 may have caused the genocide on these people. History itself actually endorses or proves this scientific bottleneck.
By the way not all here are humans
16:45 what Israel is doing to the Palestinians
Nope
No evidence
I Also have a theory based on on the timeline you provided around that time was the Hebrew/Moor/Islamic rule maybe they Ashkanaz(i) were classified by their lineage nationality opposed to their religion as Ashkanaz in the bible is Europe Genesis 10:2-5
Garrett Wilson It’s not consistent with the genetic science
@@teddmented do you mean the testing of mitochondria which only passes through the mother?
You can't find out where you come from by testing the earth, you must test the seed.
Everything Trump Touches Dies the lineage goes back to Abraham ever wonder why it doesn't go back to Jacob? it's because Esau and Jacob are the sons of Isaac and grand sons of Abraham. Now Esau mixed in so well with the children of japheth they became indistinguishable ie; Herodian Jews
@@Utillitarian but if you want to keep a myth going this is what you do , test the earth only LOL
Biblical genealogy is pure myth. Jews, traditionally named the places they traveled, using biblical names. But those biblical names had absolutely nothing to do with the actual areas or people where they traveled. It's the same as the English naming New world sites like "New York", "Brighton Beach", "New England" etc... The Spanish did the same all across the entire new world, often using Saint names that had no connection to these new places "San Juan", "San Jose" etc.. The Jews did the same, but instead of using previous place names, they would pick a name from Biblical genealogy.