Cooling 50,000 Degrees... Lightning Thermal System Breakdown
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Jordan and Andrew go through the thermal system on the Ford F-150 Lightning.
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Outro:
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#Ford #Lightning #F150 - Zábava
This spaghetti system only makes me more excited to see how Tesla will address thermal management for towing more than 14k lbs on their truck. Sandy's comparison between the Mach E & Tesla's thermal management was definitely an eye opener.
Model 3 is most efficient vehicle @ 132 mpg, and can TOW 3500 lbs.
💯
@@markplott4820 Somehow I doubt you checked the facts befor pressing "Reply" on that one. Data means NOTHING when you mix them up...
Anyway, to drive a larger vehicle and trailer, you'd be looking at 5x or 6x the average consumption. Things will heat up.
As an example, Model 3 can't actually hold speeds over 200 kph well, even though it doesn't even need 100 kW for it. Just overheats.
@@Cloxxki - model 3 SR is an every day car , using LFP. not DRIFTING, Burnouts, Dragging, or Tracking in that model.
PERFORMANCE model 3 is a different BEAST of a car , WON 1st place 🥇in 2020 pikes peak w/o overheating.
all STOCK , no mods.
2021 mod S PLAID, has Dual condenser, has Carbon wrapped Rotors, to withstand heat.
PLAID perform well , despite bad Condition @ pikes peak in 2022.
there going to be so many purpose built things: 1. better energy management2. better vehicle weight 3. better air flow around the truck 4. smooth underside 5. better battery internal resistance 6. more efficient motors
all the trolls in here are acting like this truck is bad and it absolutely is not. They are serving my business beautifully so far. I’ll likely still buy a cybertruck to drive personally but the max tow Pro models we have are flawless as of yet
Good to hear
"Trolls"? "Realists"
For a minute there I thought you were going to make it through an episode without saying "Tasla". Psych! Not the case. That says a lot about the engineering for Tesla: from laughing stock to benchmark.
And that's the difference between a clean sheet of paper cooling system design like Tesla and a parts bin raid based design like Ford has done twice now: Mach E and Lightning. While the parts bin raid seems to be faster time to production, it also locks in a lot more assembly labor and parts cost. I sure hope Ford has a team doing a clean sheet of paper cooling system design to reduce their costs when the price squeeze hits (when demand and supply equalize for EVs). Otherwise they will see their profits evaporate.
Well said.
Ford already has the Labor and parts cost covered. If this was the first and only product they make it would be very inefficient to do this.
But they build a LOT of F-150's every year.. The extra labor is not as significant of a factor for them.
It is a messy and complicated system compared to Tesla for sure.
I wonder what 3 more iterations of Fords cooling system will look like after Farley starts swinging the performance or fired hammer.
'a clean sheet of paper' is not what we imagine but a process that needs to go thru many iterations to achieve the goals. it's neither clean nor cheap. Tesla's scrap piles are record setting in the auto industry but things will get better with time.
a big/older manufacturer doesn't want to start from scratch as that generates both waste (scraps) and time delays. that is not to say simpler solutions can't be deployed on subsequent generations...
This confirms that Ford loves hoses and pipes so it can connect all parts, bits and pieces from various module vendors to cobble together their electric vehicles. Reminds me of old Tinker Toys where you had to take weird pieces and make them fit together to make something.
Smart to use old parts but it'd be better to design and then source parts.
The amount of hoses on these cars is ridiculous, good luck to the techs who try to locate leaks on them 😂
Exactly I’m a tech one of these will never enter my shop ! It’s going to be one giant leak in 5 or 6 years .
Lol and remember most evs don't allow dye in their a.c system. Imagine trying to get the sniffer down there
@@DoingthingswithDAN There's a difference in the A/C oil. The electric cars need non-conductive oil - lets see how many problems Jiffy Lube can cause with contamination.
@@KingSobieski exactly! leaving only the combustible sniffer the only method left to find leaks. Not sure if you have done a.c. work for automotive before but it's very frustrating trying to find a leak without dye.
Love mine, no noise in the cabin, its quite as can get. One thing, when we talk about legacy burden, one could make a point that is also an advantage. Getting this to market quickly and without real impact to quality of product, easy service, lots of parts for repairs / accidents, etc etc.
New things are always nice.
I love these tear down videos. It’s fascinating to see how these companies approach engineering challenges differently. I hope you plan to do a tear down of Hyundai’s latest EV platform. Maybe the upcoming Ioniq 6? No apologies for the shirt, Jordan. That’s a great color on you!
Thank you!
Diplomatic phrase of the day.
.
"There's only so much optimisation that you can achieve if the modules that you're putting in the vehicle are common, or carryover, or supplier driven with other programs"
.
Translation
"We're afraid it's still a "parts bin" system"
Stop talking nonsense!? Which bin!? Do you see any ICE hardware there!? Grow up!!! It’s parts from suppliers which ford is already developing their own in house btw
The first ford mache had LG motor and motor controller and also MAGNA motor too but now it’s all made in house by ford. Go watch max Weber auto
@@carholic-sz3qv
Definition of "parts bin" in this context....
"Modules common, carryover, supplier driven from other programs"
Directly quoted from the video?
As in "carried over" from other vehicles.... Parts already in the Ford system?
(You said yourself "parts from suppliers")
We could start with every hose you could see there? Pumps, Valves, Compressors (x2!) (Probably?)
Personally I'll take the opinion of the *expert* making the comment, who's actually looked at *every* piece of "hardware" there.
Why did you assume I was talking about "motors"?
I didn't mention that.
But if you want to compare, check your info.
The Mach E (from memory) had off the shelf *drive units* from Magna (front) and *Borg Warner* (rear) as detailed in the Munro teardown.
Grow up yourself.
You're really quite "sensitive" on the subject?
.
The boot's on the other foot now? 😉
Exactly. "Munro Live" has turned into "Diplomacy Live".
Like the bright shirt. Helps seperate from background.
Great shirt, Jordan, and great video.
Camera person did a great job. Nice shirt. Always interesting information.
Glad you enjoyed it
Sandy almost passed out with the number of hoses on the Mach E, with this one he would be in a coma. lol
And yet the Mach E has had no reported issues with cooling leaks. I have 33000 miles on my Mach E with no problems, while my model 3 has had to be taken to Tesla services twice with only 19000 miles on it.
Heck I almost am.
@@irfanhusein1445 Service for what?
@@irfanhusein1445 Small sample size certainly, but we can't forget these cooling systems run at *very* low temperatures and pressures compared to what an ICE vehicle needs to deal with, so the coolant lines don't concern me that much. Regarding the Mach, any problems with public charging? I've been looking at a Mach -E.
Nonsense!!! This is actually much more simpler and improved 🤡
Nice spaghettini yum!🍝🍴
Cool reporting on a hot topic - you stayed chill.
Thanks for a clearer understanding of the hidden costs of Inventory Builds (using off the shelf parts).
Glad it was helpful!
"Inventory builds"
Nice term!
(You're going to annoy some here😉)
5:30 - You told about two alternatives in HV modules: first alternative being: DCDC converter and AC charger both as separate modules from suppliers (Ford F-150 Lightning), with dual coolant lines and dual HV connectors. Versus second alternative being: one integrated component designed and/or made in-house (Tesla Model 3/Model Y/Model S since MY22). There is actually a third way: an integrated unit for both of these function from a supplier. See BMW iX3, iX, i4, where they source an integrated CCU (combined charging unit) for both of these functions, supplied by Panasonic.
One of the problems with integration however is: once Tesla has integrated the AC charger too tighthly, they cannot easily update it from lets say a 9.6 kW charger to a 19.2 kW charger. You can already see, how Tesla Model 3, Y, S MY 22 fall behind the competition, as they only offer around 10 kW of charging power, when some competitors offer around 20 kW AC charging as an option. This is important for Europe, where 22 kW AC chargers are wide spread.
Another issue is different markets of the world like EU (3 phase/1phase AC), USA (1 phase AC), China (3 phase AC), which will likely need different AC chargers and different charging inlets (CCS T2, CCS T1, GB/T). With a modular design, the onbord AC charger can be swapped independently from the DCDC convertes. With integrated stuff, several integrated variants must be designed, manufactured and stored for the different markets.
The same is true if you wanted to add AC-charging related features like Vehicle-To-Load or Vehicle-To-Grid. In case of modules, they can be swapped for other modules, supporting these functions like Ford did with the Pro Power system. In case of highly integrated onbord chargers, they eventually need to be redesigned and re-integrated into their environment. Tesla obviously still has some way to go towards that goal.
Thanks for the rundown on the thermal management system, the first real detail of the max tow package. I paid $1k for max towing without knowing what it was, now I am so happy I did. Keep the good info coming! I hope you will include how the cab and battery are heated too.
Thank you Jordan and Andrew - excellent engineering analysis!
Thank you for taking the time to share with us.
Absolutely fantastic; thank you
I read all 392 comments to date. By far, the leading concern is the complexity/reliability and associated accessibility to find and repair issues in the cooling system. Not being able to readily access all components of this system is a potential deal breaker to me. I believe it would be beneficial for Munro to do a Q&A video on the Lightning like they did for the 4680 battery pack and address these and other issues. They could possibly help assuage my concerns.
Great job, thank you.
Thanks for watching!
so many hoses
Thats a good thing!
Thanks love this channel
Our pleasure!
Nice job guys.
Thanks!
Thanks!
AWESOME content!
Thanks!
Would it not be more efficient and less cost for ONE larger variable flow rate compressor? adds excessive complexity and cost
Concerned with all the future leaks and how to service that second towing a/c compressor.
Nonsense!!!! It’s a low pressure/temperature system no need to worry about that crap
@@carholic-sz3qv Your nonsense is Nonsense.
Love the special effects on the shirt. Shows you don't take yourself too seriously!
Thank you!
You're very welcome!
Very cool shirt, the colour looks great on the video.
Thank you! Cheers!
Tan enhancement color😉
Nice rundown. One thing that wasn't quite clear to me is if the "pony chiller" loop is always isolated from the main loop (beyond the expansion function), or if at low loads the main chiller can run indpendently.
Really appreciate the insight you guys present.
Nice shirt! And good video
Are there meatballs included in that spaghetti tray?
All that spaghetti
And no meatballs
With apologies to Josh White.
Or
All those potatoes
And no meat
With apologies to Fats Waller.
Hi Guys, Very nice video! Did you try to review CAN communications between the modules in the thermal management system? Would be nice to see such report
Need to keep the dealer's service centers happy by the looks of it.
Jordan the shirt is great. You always have my attention…so easy on the eyes 😊
Oh thank you!
If you talk about the thermal management system overall, you should have included the resistive PTC cabin heater(s) for heating the cabin.
What is PTC?
@@bru512 Positive Temperature Coefficient (of resistance) - it means the resistance of the heating element changes with temperature. If its cold, it has low resistance and draws a lot of power generating a lot of heat. If its warmer outside, its resistance rises and it draws less power generating less heat. Therefore, it has self-regulating features. PTC cabin heaters make it clear, that their energy comes from electricity and that a peak power draw is relatively short.
I thought you must make a burnout to heat this thingy.
You didn't show a 4 way refrigerant switchover valve to allow the system to operate as a heat-pump. Did I Miss something or does this truck use restive heating??
Does it preheat the battery for fast charging and hard use?
Yes. Resistive heating. You gotta leave something on the table to improve next time. LOL.
😀
Really interesting video! Based on what you're seeing, do you think having the Max Tow Package increases fast charging capabilities by reducing thermal throttling?
I’d like to see more of that semi trailing irs.
I'd like to know if you have to remove the cab or truck bed to service some of those components and hoses.
Glad to see Ford doing a decant job, and hope the electric division of Ford is able to survive the switch to EV's.
👀 where👀?
.
#stillpartsbin
I’m also happy to see them survive the switch unlike those idiots! Negative people out there! We need as much EVs on the roads as possible
@@carholic-sz3qv
Now convince me you support "all" EV companies.
The vast majority would be "happy" to see them (Ford) survive the disruption.
.
Many of us would have been even happier if
1) They had realised (admitted) there WAS a disruption much earlier.
And
2) They (along with others) hadn't actively fought those trying to move it forward
(we still have certain suspect comments even from Jim now and then)
(Take a look at your own "comment history")
Ford will do great so long as they don't copy Tesla's anti-consumer practices. Such as the unrepairable 4680, over charging customers for the vehicles, anti-independent repair, charging $15,000 for NON self driving, etc.
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn You know, if you want to buy a Mach E battery, it will cost you the same price as a brand new Mach E. Also that sealed battery that Tesla uses is rumoured to be the million mile battery. There will be advancements and cheaper alternative battery by the time you reach that mile, you probably not care for fixing old tech battery.
Curiosity question. When your costing reports are prepared, how do you establish cost for a component that may be used on multiple platforms? Are your reports based on the planning volume of the specific model? Lightning vs F150 for example. Another great video. Thanks
Will be interesting to see how this compares to the Cybertruck when it comes out. Seems like a better comparison than the Model 3
what I saw in all the effort to eliminate a cooling reservoir is an overly complicated design with more failure points, This is a problem with new vehicles many have major component failures before 100,000 miles. CVT transmissions, variable valve timing, gear driven water pumps, turbo chargers on gas engines
If your car's thermal management system is having trouble, you might be in for a heated discussion with your mechanic.
[rimshot] 🥁 [/rimshot]
Let's get them out of the way?
"Steamy" discussion.
Vent your anger.
May reach boiling point.
Hot and bothered.
Etc
@@rogerstarkey5390 Don't forget the other side, such as getting the cold shoulder!!
It will be a case of book it in online with a credit card and a credit check. No human even having time as you just have to arrange the loan from a bank!
Nonsense!!!! This isn’t an ICE! Things are relatively much simpler with lower pressures and temperatures….. no turbo no transmission no gearbox…… grow up
The second compressor sits in the legacy transmission hump of the cab. Creative use of space.
Please Ford, continue like this. I prefer to change hoses than a whole electronic unit just to save some hoses and heat exchangers. F150s are workhorses trucks, not a fancy car, so repairability and avalability with a good price is really important.
I live in a place where is goes reguraly to 115F , second compressor puts my mind at ease .
In my line of business well call the “legacy burden” technical debt. I think it’s good way of describing the situation. You have some debt to pay in order to improve the system.
What brand of pasta sauce is best for this spaghetti?
You talked about getting heat out of the system, but how does heat get into the cabin? You didn't mention a heat pump, is it resistive heating?
Great review!! After seeing this I would never buy one. This is trouble waiting for a place to happen!!!
This looks like a DIY project if I want to be nice.
In plain English it's a clusterfuck job...
Can't wait to see a CyberTruck Breakdown video...
It's important for people to realize that the pressure in the liquid coolant loops are unlike those found in combustion vehicles. They never reach anything close to boiling, thus are only pressurized by the pumps that circulate the fluid. (OK, there's a bit of thermal expansion as well, thus the small expansion tank)
I much prefer these more recent videos over Mr. Munro's nonstop Tesla ads that we saw in the past.
"interesting" perspective (as usual)
.
@@rogerstarkey5390 Ah! I have a fan (or a stalker).
As someone who's turned a lot of wrenches the FIRST thought I had seeing all the lines was how accessible that all is when the systems get older and leaks happen. How much has to get removed before you can get access to something, the whole cab of the truck? I already shy away ftom Ford as a buyer because their engineering is done to speed production and minimize cost on the assembly line but that creates problems and quite a few nightmares when servicing breakdowns in the future. And harder repair procedures mean higher costing repairs and customer dissatisfaction overall.
🤗👍THANKS JORDAN AND ANDREW and ERIC,THE WHOLE MUNRO TEAM FOR MAKING THIS FOR US (on UTUBE)AND HOPEFULLY creating more Interest for sales 🤔
JORDAN We love ❤️ the bright SALMON shirt 😎and it matches your black pants , and ANDREW matches what we expect an engineer to look 👀 like 😁 NO OFFENSE ANDREW 🤗💚💚💚
Thanks
Yes, there may be more hoses, components, fasteners, etc., on the Mach-E and Lightning when compared to a Tesla and therefore more failure points. And that may be driven by having to use off the shelf parts for maximizing ROI. But, do they work? Do Fords tend to have lots of failures when it comes to internal cooling and HVAC applications?
There may be more parts, but that doesn't always mean low quality.
It’s a clusterfack
Its perfect!
@@brunoheggli2888 a perfect clusterf*ck
How many hoses in total? How does this compare to Rivian?
I was nice to see legacy OEM engineers getting some positive call outs. They are coming around to making changes that are further from the path they have been on. Heck they might just be tired of being called out for bad execution on Munro videos!😆
So...I wouldn't mind if Jordan was shirtless🤣 Maybe just save it for the Munro Topless Calendar😉
You mentioned compressors "kicking on" - do automotive compressors not yet use inverter control?
Isn't that thermal valve passive, not static?
Did you mention what the coolant was ? Two five way valves and hoses everywhere should have never made it to production. Can we assume the overflow tank is user accessible to maintain coolant levels along with a switch inside the tank to warn of a low level ? Running two aluminum lines all the way across the car to take advantage of a radiator in the front seems wasteful. Could the radiator(s) be in the back with small electric fans to force the heat out the back be possible ?
So many parts, it's amazing we have manufacturers willing to juggle thousands of parts to make a vehicle.
How much longer until we see 3D printed gyroid heat exchangers in production vehicles?
Wouldn't the model 3 preformance be able to handle a towing load? If it can manage the heat of charging in 1 hour it can probably tow if it was a heavier car.
I’ve been a technician for over 35 years replacing some of those cooling lines is going to be a nightmare ! Ford needs to come up with a manifold system to eliminate some of that tangled mess! Does Ford have any idea what the road salt is going to do to those aluminum lines 😂.
I like the shirt.
What ah mess,🤣great video.
do the body mounts have rubber donoughts or rubber bushings
I like the shirt
Plain and simple - it's a cobbled together mess. Rube Goldberg might be impressed.
Interesting and complex.
Looking forward to the battery tare down. When I watched the Mach-E battery tare down noticed the high current wiring was a small gauge may be #6. Checked my temp rise table for single conductor in air, looks like a 150degC rise when fast charging at 350A, very large delta T cycling expecting connections to get loose over time.
Some where is heard that when you do pedal to the metal the motors use 1000A, way off my table but it looks like a 400degC temp rise.
I'm looking forward to the battery TEAR down 😉
Where do you see any complexity there!? Wait till you see the ICE! 🤡 this is a low pressure and temperature system
Ouch! 2nd recall on the way!!
Could the thermal heat exchange be improved by having a small computer fan blowing on it for non max towing F150?
It’s scary to see how many hoses this has. However I’ve had no issues at all with my Mach E. I have 46,000 miles on mine and had to spend only $20 on a tire rotation. No other maintenance needed.
Mindblowing,gamechanging!
Only if you have a small mind..... And it's the wrong game.
Revolutionary visionary insane amazing!
Someone’s shoes are melting. Also lots of connections to have fluid leaks.
12:25 Generator Units? Are these inverters?
Gotta love the comments from youtube certified engineers who are pissed that actual engineers at Munroe Asc. like this vehicle.
I'm "loving" the comments from the "increasingly sensitive" types who can't stand the "diplomatic critique" of this system by the Munro team.
(That wouldn't include you by any chance?)
And here's me thinking you had a short circuit and it was just the top you were wearing!
You guys do a very good job explaining the complex engineering, but I do miss Sandy's candor and judgment. That said, I suppose he has other fish to fry and avoiding idiotic comments from keyboard warriors will keep him in the game longer :-)
Sandy is a busy man these days.
Cory to Jordan
"If we show Sandy, will he upset Ford?"
"Probably"
"Don't show him just yet" 😉
Sandy definitely would’ve called this crap 😂😂
I much prefer Jordan's presentations. Clear, concise, and well spoken. Sandy tends to wander.
Can you please do a video on different body in white fasteners and how u can attach components to sheet metal,also can you do a video on automotive headlights and optics?. Thanks for great explaination and effort
I would like to see more in headlights tech as well. I’m hoping the recent changes in headlight law will bring innovations the Europeans have had for decades
The BEST Fastener is NO Fastener, in the FIRST place.
DELETE.
@@MGXsport - USA is a DECADE behind Asia & EU.
Japan already can use CAMERAS instead of mirror.
@@markplott4820 yes but sometimes you are forced to use them ....I know munro rules and of course fasteners are undesirable but sometimes they are a necessary evil :)
Ford is always just hoses, hoses everywhere. They need to take some notes from Toyota/Honda
FUD motors is Screwed & Hosed.
@@markplott4820 yea not like getting screwed by Elon eh Plott?
A Tundra EV would be better? Such insight.
@@ProjectFairmont - lol.
@@ProjectFairmont yes, it would. Thank you.
Why have ford's always been spaghetti monsters? In 2008 we cross shopped a new ford power stroke vs a dodge with the cummins. The dodge was wide open under the hood where the ford was jam packed with hoses and wires and not an ounce of room to do anything.
Repairing that mess would be like trying to untie the Gordian Knot! Munro is kissing up to these EV companies.
That's a bit harsh. I'd say they're being polite.
Nicely put, and imagine how much energy 2 compressors drain from the battery pack!
@@bartwaggoner2000 makes me excited to see how much they improve on the next lightning from the all new blue oval city in TN in 2025.
Farley said it would be controversially styled and have at least 75-100 more miles of range out of the same size battery pack as this truck has.
So I'm thinking heat pump, battery pre conditioning, 300+kwh charging, 800v system etc for that ground up truck. Interesting he also said mach e would get lfp next year and the lightning would get lfp pack's in 2024(he didn't clarify though if that's 2024 model year or 2024 calender year?
@@4literv6
So, "Farley said" it'll be like another truck which shall not be spoken of....?😉
@@rogerstarkey5390 basically yes, although the ram ev truck has yet to debut. Should be an interesting space in just a few more year's.
Lordstown might actually get the endurance out thanks to foxconn. Atlis motor vehicle might bring the xt to market.
Rivian supposedly has an r2 series truck with dual in house motors and lfp pack's coming in 2024 ish. 🤔
When you say truck you must also include the elements the truck will be in whether it's snow, salt, mud or underwater. That looks like it's going to be spaghetti mess when it goes outside. Road grime will make that a dead piece in short order. Why bother with that when gasoline is more energy dense?
It will be interesting to compare Cybertruck and Lightning thermal management
TESLA Design & ENGINEERING are superior.
Tesla thermal system is WORLD CLASS.
Cybertruck will be a BADASS truck.
Yeah, eventually when the cyber truck sees the light of day
It actually won't.
I'd say "predictable" would be closer.
.
But....
It WILL be interesting to compare the NEXT Lightning because
A) They'll have a template/ benchmark, and
B) They'll have development time, and
C) They've essentially got one (more) chance to get it right.
.
That's assuming they survive that long.
@@jowarrior We’ll have to see if Tesla hits their mark. As of two days ago, the Carwow reported Cybertruck preproduction testing had been completed. I certainly would expect that for a vehicle which is promised to enter production somewhere around mid year 2023. Some spy photos show a vehicle which looks almost the same in sheet metal as the concept, but with less aggressive wheel styling. There is also a humongous beam wiper mounted the driver side, stowed in the vertical position. I guess if you aren’t in SoCal, it actually does rain. There’s no word yet on the the cabin interior. Supposedly Tesla is sticking to its guns that the single motor version will start around $40K US. Of course Tesla actually being willing to produce the cheap version so you can actually purchase one is another question. We shall see…
@@jowarrior - 2022 Tooling is happening now, and PRODUCTION in 2023.
All these systems should be designed under the flatbed. That way, the front cabin area keeps it’s quite moment
So, it shouldn't catch fire under load? Im confused...
I dont see any electric fan for the radiator n ac ?
So many hoses.
The mountings on that extra compressor aren't going to wear then? 🙄
Scary mounts.
@@bru512
Imaging taking the vehicle off road?
Medium potholes at any speed are surely going to "stress" that unit?
That plumbing needs some refining, what a MESS
Looks like an improvement over the Mach E, but still way to many lines and connections.. But you didn't address those issues here. Thing here is that it is still a cobbled together system instead of a totally ground up design. That means compromise, increased cost, and less efficient design.
Fair assessment.
Are there plans to do videos on other product types, or are most commissioned by manufacturer, and content confidential? I find these rather interesting, would love to see so much more.
You're going to need a really big box
What's wrong with the shirt? I like it. 👍