2.5-Hour Long Run Cap: Smart or Ridiculous?
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
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This video illustrates how unique training is to an individual. But when you're new or trying to hit a breakthrough, it can be hard to determine how hard to push, to know when to back off or determine what kind of training works best for you. Our team of coaches get to work 1:1 with athletes to find the sweet spot and we are ready to help you crush your next goal. Our team is ready to help and you can learn more about our options here: readysetmarathon.com/run-coaching-services/
Obviously the more stress one puts on one’s body the greater the likelihood of injury. Conversely no stress, a sedentary lifestyle, is a desasterous health plan. Moderation can be difficult for some of us. I’m competing at 70 years old this year. I started sniffing glue and gasoline at 13 years old, shooting drugs at 15. I started running around 60, did my first marathon at 62. To suggest that my running plan should mimic a healthy 30 year old is ridiculous and dangerous. Jeez, I’m so grateful just to be able to run in the morning and listen to music. Makes me glad to be alive. Have fun, take it easy and enjoy yourself, life’s too precious to be taken so seriously. If somebody enjoys running a 12 minute mile fantastic! Good for one’s health and sanity, not harming anybody else. If somebody needs to judge them that’s their deal. I’m reasonable hoping to win or place in my age division but what I’m determined to do is smile and have fun.
Yes, this!! There is already a barrier to entry in trying something new in that it's intimidating...why must people make it feel more so? As you say, the whole point of taking up something like running in adulthood is to increase longevity, brighten mood and just get more out of life. So glad you are here with us and you found your way out of a destructive lifestyle and living a life with perspective and gratitude!
You'll never beat eliud kipchoge with that attitude.
Just kidding keep up the good work. I hope when I make it to your age I'm able to still run.
Love this!! Best wishes on a wonderful, healthy season with plenty of age group placings!!
Slow runner here! If I capped my long run at 2,5 h, I wouldn’t get much further than a half marathon distance. So I am running for longer and it is fun for me.
Exactlyyyyy...it's FUN for you!!
Same here
The best advice I received from Coach Jane when I started running was, "If you run, you are a runner" and "Run your own race". I finished my first Marathon in 5:57:24, just under the six-hour cutoff. I appreciated how the faster finishers would shout words of encouragement on their way back, like "You can do it!" or "You're doing great". I love the running community and am excited to run my second marathon this year with a new goal! Oh, plus the runners who stayed to cheer us across the finish line were icing on the cake! ❤
You're amazing, Joshua!! And know you are making so much more progress in training for your second marathon with Coach Remy! So happy to have such an enthusiastic, hard-working athlete on our team. Can't wait to see what you do next. And yes, being at a finish line watching finishes of every level is such an emotional experience. Every finisher is one to be celebrated!
I had a long run today, 20 miles in 4:08. I am training for my 4th marathon, the last one took me 4:30 but I finished strong. So now I run a mile more each Sunday, but very slowly, to avoid going over to zone 3. I have never been injured from running, and have run up to 22 miles during marathon training periods in the past, still no injuries. I am 52 years old, but I always build up very slowly and stay in zone 2 on runs 18 miles or longer. My point is: even as an older runner, if you build up slowly enough, know when to back up, stay in zone 2 for the most part, and don't skip long runs while trying to build up, there is no reason to get injured. Thank you for your videos, I have learned enormously much from them, keep up the great work!
I train much like this and all good 😊
I think people don’t take into the account of the build up a slower runner or necessarily the goal or the type of run they are doing. I run in zone 2 and am a slower runner. Ten miles will take me 2 hours and the top of my marathon training will take 4 hours for 20 miles. May be slow but it’s enjoyable and I’m not drained either
Same here!!
Exactly! You're running nice and easy, taking it all in, enjoying your time out there and recovering well. I find it's rarely the amount of time that's leading to injury...it's way too much time running hard. So glad to hear how much you're enjoying your journey!
This is exactly my case. It’s all about keeping it fun and injury free. It’s incredible to see how much we can achieve growing slowly but consistently.
I personally completed my first full marathon 3 weeks ago in 5:30hrs under a scorching sunny 85F and 95% humidity day with no injuries and no pain from start to finish, incredibly humbled by the experience. And @runningwithjane was such an amazing source of tips to get me here - which included peaking my training cycle 2 weeks before the race with a 4 hr run (which was a perfect 20miler to precision), adding a “buffer” week every other week in between instead of increasing mileage linearly (which means, run 30 miles then 25-28, then 33-35, then back to 30, then maybe 37-40, 35, 45, etc), and of course, fueling, hydrating and stretching as needed.
This is similar to what I do…it works well. Long,yet slow. I’m 63
I ran 20 miles 3 weeks before my first marathon; it took me a little longer than 3 hours. I didn't get injured and it gave me a lot of confidence going into the race. Sometimes, you need to do what's right for you.
Yep, yep!! Doing a marathon is a BIG deal and your first one especially can be really intimidating...confidence and mindset is important!!
Gosh Jane, can you hear me shaking my head?! This is SPOT ON. Can we collectively agree that it's important to listen to our bodies and consider how we want to feel on the day of the race itself? Every "body" is different, so to will be their recovery and training, THANK YOU always for the sane reminder to think for ourselves!!
Yes, let's collectively agree!! Let's try our best to not let our own egos and others' opinions get in the way. So appreciate your thoughts! Also, are you at Boston again this year?? I'm sitting this one out, but maybe next year! Don't have FOMO yet, but we'll see come marathon Monday.
@@runningwithjane yes, running with a friend who is a first-timer! SO excited for her. I remember sitting with you in the tent that morning last year 😊
Have the MOST fun!@@teachingasfastasican5785
I ran my first marathon in 4:51. I felt great at the end and was passing guys in their 20’s the last three miles. I will never be a fast runner. Many of my long training runs were over 2.5 hours. My goal was to get to the start line injury free and I met my goal! For someone in their 50’s, I felt like I was in the best shape of my life.
Sounds like you did it right in the best way for YOU!! Rocked that first marathon!!
jane you are a fighter for ALL runners- YOU ARE A MOTIVATING PRESENCE.
keep it up. why is the elite 7 min pace person even watching your videos...........
Thank you so much!!
You are SO ON POINT about every person being an individual athlete and training is not black and white issue. As runners we have to stop with the thinking that the way we do our training is the way every runner should do training. I suffer from osteoarthritis in both knees so my marathon training plans have to include more low impact endurance cross training like cycling, rowing as well as more strength and mobility training. Yes, I can still do 3 -3:30 long runs without issues but sometimes I have to take a step back or a week off from running because as you so well stated, running its high-impact. So again, we have have to stop with the "my training plan is the best training plan for every runner" because it's not. Oh and thank you for touching on how we need to stop it with the pace shaming. Keep up the good content.
Thank you for sharing your experience and how you've determined what works best for YOU! I do understand that with so much info out there it can be hard for a newer runner/marathoner to know how hard to push without overstepping...hence the high rate of overuse injuries, but it is rare that it's debilitating long term. I definitely do my very best to help people navigate it all to avoid injury and be able to make running a long game!
Yes, ridiculous and a bit elitist. As someone who does marathons in the 5-7 hour range I quite often do long runs over 4 hours. Granted, I go very slowly and add in walking or hiking. Isn't the point of a long run to build up time on your feet? And also to try out nutrition and running gear? I've also done several 50Ks and 50-mile ultras. I guess it's what your ultimate training goal is - distance or speed.
Thank you for sharing your experience! You're doing amazing things and clearly training in a smart way to achieve your goals!
@@runningwithjane Thank you! In my 40 years of running (I'm 65) I've found that it's always been speedwork that had gotten me injured, not long slow runs. I would bet that people who believe in a 2.5 hour long run cap are running the long runs too fast.
I probably shouldn't comment since my longest runs were just under 2 hours and only a touch less than 9 miles, and now two years ago when I was 57, but I never started running until age 50ish So I will say, the most beneficial aspect of training is all of the above, Coach Jane's advice seems to be great advice to me. Running, strength training, rest and recovery, as well as nutrition. I found that strength training (weight lifting) was the most beneficial (in my opinion) to preventing injury, and also extra TIME. Most people run on a "weekly" training cycle, I trained on a 10 day schedule, with an extra day for rest and recovery after a 2 hour run, or a heavy strength training day. Well, that was my 2 cents worth, an extra rest day or lighter training day, will not hurt anyone.
Best source of running advice on CZcams.
Well if that isn't the nicest! Thank you. I'm so happy to hear you find it to provide so much value.
I started running at 50 due to being on the verge of Type 2 diabetes. I started watching my diet and walking. Walking led to jogging and jogging led to running. I started with 5Ks and worked my way up to a 1/2 marathon. Well after a 1/2 I just had to try a marathon...4 hours and 35 minutes. I just wanted to finish! Anyways, my 20 mile long run prior to the marathon was approximately 3 hours give or take.
Good advice. I have always followed Pfitzinger's advice of maxing out at the total time you expect to run for the marathon. This will usually get me to 21-23 miles for my longest long run as I would run this at my easier long run pace (my long runs have therefore been maxed at between 3.5 and 4.5 hours, depending on where I was in my marathon journey). But in any case, I watch how I am responding to these runs and consider how the cumulative stress of ALL my training is impacting me.
Thousands of runners have completed their first marathon using Jeff Galloway run walk run method and training plans. Every plan has a longest long run of at LEAST full race distance. For most people who complete his plan that’s at least five hours.
Exactly!! I actually had planned to mention it in the video but didn't make it in. And he's the official coach/has the official plan for the Disney races!!
Yeah this is a tough one. I feel like a pro runner might say we have no business training for a marathon unless we can run 32 km within 2.5-3h at our “easy” pace. At my snail’s pace I likely will cap my longest run at 3h and be happy to get in 25 km. So what? I’m 58 yo, doing my first marathon in 13 years and taking each long run as it comes. I wholeheartedly agree this is a highly individual decision. The best thing I can do for myself is listen to my body and improve over time! 🎉🎉
exactly! It's not the distance, it's the time on feet and how good you feel.
I have run two marathons. I am a slow runner 12:00min/mi in my training runs. Peak marathon training long run is 20 miles. This is easily over 4 hours. I had a coach for both races. I would think they would know what is right for me and my goals 😮
Exactly! And great coaches have your best interest in mind - trying to balance what you need to get your goals without pushing you too much. And it sounds like you had good experiences and that's what it's all about!
Funny story: Training for my first marathon and was facing first 20 mile run on training plan. A day or two before the run, Coach Jane changed instructions for run to “timed run 3-1/2 hours” (I think she was worried I wasn’t ready to run 20 miles). Well I did the run and in exactly 3-1/2 hours I ran exactly 20 miles. Wow did I feel like I nailed it. Having now run the marathon it’s hard to imagine I could have been successful without first getting some experience at long run times and distances during training. Maybe situation is different for elite runners but for most of us the marathon is going to be a long day.
Love this video. Thank you, Jane.
You are so welcome!
Just ran 20 miles for my peak long run in 3hrs 20mins. My first marathon is three weeks away. I feel very well prepared, and the build up to that distance has been gradual over 23 weeks and a big part was nailing my nutrition and it took me all this time to get it right. Love this channel and the honest advice! Thanks and keep it coming! Sending love from the UK!
Yes, the practice is so key and sounds like you are feeling confident and strong going into race day! Appreciate the kind words and so glad you're here. Congrats on all of your hard work, and best of luck and let us know how it goes, Mike!!
Thanks, I will do! Hoping for a good day 🙏
Quick race report: I made it! - I ran 4hrs 10 for my first marathon. Really happy with the time even though I had a hydration disaster on the day due to a bottle leaking issue! It meant that at 20 miles I started to slow down.. but managed to bring it home. I actually love that I still have that 4hr target for my next race in October. Really enjoyed the day, though you wouldn’t know from my expression in the race photos! Can’t wait to get back into training again!
@@mikeharding1016 Thanks so much for reporting back! You crushed it!! I agree - no better way to finish than having a great experience and hungry for more. I'm so so proud of you!!
I'm a super slow runner. And I regularly run 2 hours a day on weekdays, and then do 2.5-4 hours for my long run on the weekend (sometimes weekdays too). I even do back to back long runs.
Since I'm slow and keep my runs at a low intensity, I've been able rack up lots of kilometers consistently. All without injury! And logged lots of time on feet, of course lol.
I just think of my training style as ultra training 😂. I love being out for hours all morning running.
Great video! ❤
Yes! Thanks for sharing how this works for you!! When we don't up the intensity, we can go for a long time and recover well!
Thank you for this video! I love your common sense and sound advice. I am a very slow runner and just completed my first marathon and Dopey challenge. I had several long runs (run/walk) over 4 hours. I never got injured or ill. I finished the marathon strong! I dont think I would have been prepared at all if I had capped my long runs at 3 hours.
Having confidence going in is so important! Sounds like you trained smart. So proud you on Dopey!!
Critical thinking! Love it. Thanks for challenging this paradigm. Outliers (actual or perceived) deserve training that suits them & may in fact establish new norms.
Hear hear!!
I often run more than 2.5 hours just because I enjoy doing so. My first reason for running has always been enjoyment, and races and training have always been secondary. Several times I year I get the urge to do a long run "just because", and so I lace up early in the morning and run until I decide to quit. Usually these runs end up being somewhere between 3 and 6 hours and range from 20-35 miles. This has never caused an injury, even though I typically run only 20-25 miles a week.
Jane, you give great advice! I am 59 and just completed my first marathon. My longest runs in training were 2:51, 3:10 and 3:35. These runs were mostly in zone 2 and gave me the confidence to know I could make 26.2. I personally think if you hold your long run to a maximum of 2:30 hours that you are setting yourself up for failure and possible injury during the race. Trust in Jane! 😂
Hi Jim! It's the zone 2 part that's truly so important!! If we can truly find that zone, and build up to the distances over time...we could just run and run and run! Perfect way to build the necessary aerobic endurance and recover properly, too.
I agree. Not all runners are the same level in endurance, running experience, abilities, goals, etc. Listen to your body and Coach Jane.
We are on the same page for sure! We are all so different.
I think the commenter who assumed anyone completing a marathon in more than 4 hours is a beginner, should take time to consider the many seasoned, older runners who may have been running for decades and now have naturally slower paces.
Gosh, right?!!
Nice sweatshirt coach. Even Jack Daniels changed things in the later editions of his book and the 2.5 hour cap and 25-30% limit was just a guideline used with judgment for his athletes. If you are crazy enough to do the marathon you have to be prepared for the distance. A good plan for the less experienced is the Hal Higdon Novice I which builds to a maximum of 40 miles/week with one 20 mile long run. This basic plan is still used by Chicago CARA with thousands of runners successfully completing the distance each year. If you have a coach, he/she will guide you in your training based upon your individual strengths and weaknesses. Good running to all!
Great video Jane, I really appreciate you standing up for us tortoises who love running even though we’ll never get on one of those podiums. I only run half marathons because I just don’t have the time to train for longer races. And my finishing time is around the three hour mark so yes, I do train longer than 2,5 hours. I also think the idea that your long run must be around 35% of your total weekly mileage absolutely irrealistic for mere mortals who do not have the time to log huge numbers. Due to time constraints I can only run three times per week if I also want to do strength training. That means that there is no math on this earth that will make 35% work. My long run is around 50% of my total and as long as I have to work an office job, cook meals, walk the dog and get sufficient sleep, I can not do more weekly runs.
Yes, training should fit into your life not the other way around! We all have different constraints and different goals. So happy to hear you've found what works for you, Yolanda!
It's funny coming back to running now. Never heard of this Daniels guy which tells you how long it's been. I read Tim Noakes Lore of Running cover to cover in the day. It was nice to get back to running and hear going 22 miles for a marathon could instead be substituted for a 3 hour long run especially when this is the first time back thanks to your channel. I also added a 2 hour run during the week as well, just staying healthy and enjoying the runs.
I found your post and the comments below very interesting. Many are in line with my experience. The arithmetic for the slow pace and time on your feet is very personal. For sub 3 hour marathons, 20 miles at slow pace is roughly the same as time on your feet for the marathon. I take nearly twice that time. I found that a 3 hour long run is insufficient (start tiring about 4.5 hours in) but a long slow run with the marathon time on my feet resulted in injury. My plan is that the longest run is within an hour or more of my target marathon time. That would make my long run at 16 to 18 miles.
Intensity is an important factor to consider.
Yep, 100% agree!
If capping long runs at 3 hours was really a thing-there would be no such thing as ultras or ultrarunners! I find it baffling that road runners argue whether doing a 3h15m long run is going to be detrimental to, yet to prepare for ultras (and particularly longer events and those with a lot of vert)-training will involve 4, 6, even 8 hour runs! For my last ultra, my longest training run was over 6 hours. I felt strong and prepared. I don’t think running any less than that would have mentally and physically prepared me to go for 12 hours on race day.
Thank you for this. I’m getting back into running after having kids and I definitely feel so slow right now but I really enjoy running and I look forward to getting better. I want to be a runner for life. We don’t need gatekeepers!
100%!! Love that you are taking time for YOU!! We give so much of ourselves as moms and that me time and going after our own goals is so important.
i think its up to the person 2.5 to 3 hours is fine for a fast runner they will cover 30 + ks in that time but anyone slower may want to feel what beein on the feet for 4 rs or more because in many marathons lots of runners like myself are out there for 4.5 to 6 hours giving it their all so for them a longer long run would be important for most of my sunday social runs are about 3 hours sometimes longer and that's just a social run not training for anything
I'm doing a marathon this spring my first, looking at 4.5 hours been building slowly on marathon plan no undue effects yet but at 67 you do listen to your body of it doesn't feel right I pull back the pace.......Great video Jane thanks👍
Easy pace, slow build and cutback weeks are key! Keep going - you got this!
All good points Jane. Even in my prime, younger years 2.5 hours wouldn't be enough for me to get in the 20 mile runs. I think back then I was doing them in about 3 hours and at the time I was running 3.40 in the marathon. At my current speed and fitness I suspect I'd top out at 30km for about 3 hours. But I agree you have to look at each individual runner and see what their limitations are and injury risk. I think it is so important to get that 18 to 20 mile run done. It builds confidence and inner strength. The more runs I got in of that distance the better my race usually went. Thoughtful video and I agree with many of your take aways
Context, context, context folks.. time on feet depends on running experience,fitness, medical history ect ect.How about absorb any you tube information: do your research :take the information or reject the info go with what fits where you are!
Question: any research rationale as to why cap a run @ 2.5hrs.
Have fun: be kind and enjoy the running journey ❤️ keep going Jane
peace out 🙏
Thank you for this! I understand that it can be hard to sift through all the info, and I realize that a 1:1 coach is not accessible to everyone so I try to make best practices as clear as possible so that people can do their best training on their own. But no, I will never be able to cater to every single runner of every level, age, etc. And I would love to see the 2.5/3-hour rationale as well...people still reiterating it here in the comments but I have still yet to see why that's the magic number. So much more to consider. Appreciate your comment!
My opinion as a "faster" runner: for me the goal is to get as fast as possible.
My experience is that running almost every day for shorter and a little faster more often, brings more gains than doing sessions that take very long or are very hard one day and doing barely anything the next day, because you are too tired and need more recovery time.
The balance and recoverytime is crucial.
Example: I did a 32k longrun with marathonpace in it today, but stayed well under the 2,5 hours, so tomorrow I can do a 1 hour Z1 run as recovery.
When I go over 2,5 hours, I am too tired the next day to do a decent run.
So my focus is on "faster" recovery and more runs (even breaking up a long run or threshold session in two runs on the same day helps).
I think that matches the Jack Daniels vision.
But I do understand that if you can only run 3 times a week (because of limited time), things are different.
I would probably do more on those 3 days.
Agree that we are only as good as our recovery. If you're truly going easy pace on a long run, and you can keep your HR consistently in Z2 throughout the miles, recovery can go very smoothly. I try to encourage runners to run at least 5 days/week for marathon training so I certainly agree with you there as well. People definitely need to be mindful of what their own bodies can handle. Sounds like you've found exactly what works well for you!
Thank you! Makes perfect sense to me! (4:54 Marathoner here)😊
Glad you found it helpful!
As someone who runs long runs of up to over 3 hours at least once a month, with one minute walking break every 3km, I think, like any sport - The long build up of fitness is important.
Yes!! I definitely see people do too much too soon all the time and that's really where the risk goes up big time...when you take your time to build and do it in a smart way, your body adapts and responds in the right way.
I'm not a sub 4 hour marathon runner, I'm a sub 4.5 hour marathon runner. My longest run for training would be around 3 hours. I cannot stand these cookie cutter coaches that think everyone is 100% the same. Thank you for coming out with this video.
So glad you're finding your groove and what works best for you!
I’m willing to bet those making those comments aren’t confident in themselves therefore want to bring others down. I know some may say it with good intentions but as you stated we are all different. In the Marines I was not taught to efficiently run and we ran a lot! I was taught to efficiently endure pain and suffering for longer and longer for good reason. I know comparing that to recreational running is a bit ridiculous but it’s similar in a sense when it comes to long distance running. How else do you continue to improve without pushing the limits competitively or recreationally? You shouldn’t go beyond your limits every run but I believe it’s key to do so at times to improve and more importantly build self confidence! Keep up the great work, live the content!
Yes, I love that you touched on the mental side of it all, too! Time for the adaptations to occur is key as well as keeping things on the slower end. We can do a lot more than we think and our bodies can often do more than we give them credit for if we can fuel and recover it right.
I’ve run 9 marathons from age 39-47, every single one involved a 3 hr long, 20 mile run at the end, as part of a 35-40 mile week. One was on only a 29-mile week. This has left me injured or ill exactly 0 times. I do a slow buildup of the long run, maybe 15 one week, 13.5 the next, then 16 the next, then 14.5, then 17, etc. And I strength train my legs. I don’t have big speed goals, just want to enjoy it all. 3 hr training runs have been no problem.
You're amazing, Shannon!! Thank you for sharing what has worked well for you and this is a great example of how people can run for longer without injury.
Agreed! When I first started training for my very first marathon my long run was four and a half hours. It still took me 6 hours to finish the marathon I had no problems no injuries
Congrats on that first marathon and training well for it!
Good video also, you know if somebody gets into ultra running and trail running I made sure you’re doing a lot of your time walking so it’s hard to judge was equal but 56 hours like in the mountain trails and the long run is common so I think it’s all about perspective if you’re going at a easier pace and you can handle longhours roads you know it’s you know if you were doing one and a half hours but going really really hard that’s probably a harder work out and going longer going slow my two cents but I’m not a marathon runner I’m supposed to stay on the trail
Haha, love your trail runner's perspective!! I think a lot of people need it. Are trails different than roads, yes, but that's often because we let our egos get in the way and go too fast when if we just treated it like a trail run and slowed down we'd be able to go so much farther for longer. Thanks for your insight!
Good video and info.
Just one suggestion, when you talk about "Fueling," please take into consideration the difference between the carb fueled athletes and the "Fat Adapted" athletes. After Adapted athletic might be able to run while in a fasted stated and do quite well.
Research how many runners and professional athletes are now converting to the Ketogenic life style. If one is truly fat Adapted they will Allwa
Always have litterly Thousands of calories on board that they can access for energy. Oh, and I forgot the US Military is beginning to emplacement thulis strategy as well.
Great video! How about splitting up the long run a bit between 2 days? I have my first marathon late this fall and I'm aiming for a 5.5 hour marathon finish. My coach is programming my peak week to have a 2-hour long run on Saturday, then a 3-hour long run on Sunday. What are your thoughts on that approach?
I definitely understand why your coach would program that. I think it can be a really sound way to train. I would personally probably have someone still do more like 3:30/3:45 for the longer one and shorten that first one, but each runner is unique and there is more than one way to prepare for a strong race.
The key for time/distance is it has to be appropriate for the runner and the event. It makes no sense if training for 5k but 4+ hours on your feet training for an Ultra? Pretty-much mandatory.
Lots of considerations for sure and yep, it's individual! What the goal for them matters as well!
4.5 hours marathoner here, did couple of 3.5 and 4.0 hours long runs last year for my marathon and i am glad i did.....finish strong at the end of the race.
Love to hear that...congrats!!
Thanks, Jane. I've done 3 marathons, and my 20-mile pace has gone from 9:29(3h 9m) to 10:01(3h 20m) to 10:29(3h 29m). Only in the 3rd, with the slowest training, did I make my sub-4 goal, with a max weekly mileage of 50, running 5 days/wk.
I'm thinking that to get down to 3:45 or even 3:30 I will need to hit 55-60+/wk. Would you recommend leaving the longest runs at 20 mi and increasing the shorter runs by a mile or 2, or maybe even adding a 6th run? Thanks again, Layne
Hi Layne! Isn't it wild how that works?! Same for me...fastest marathon came from slowest average paces in training. With the goal you have, I'm usually helping runners get to that 55-60+ range as long as they've had at least a couple previous cycles to build to that (which obviously you have). It's hard for *most* people to get to that mileage without a 6th day, but depends on your schedule. I also think 6 days is better, because that means 3 true recovery run days that are shorter and light on pace. (And I think up to 20 is plenty.)
Thanks so much! Will look at adding in the 6th day. I'm often shooting to go to bed at 8:30 to get up at 4:30 - not sure how much earlier I can push my schedule 😊@@runningwithjane
@@LayneBracy1 I've been trying to run slower to get faster as well. FWIW, Hal Higdon's advanced marathon plans are 6 days: 3 easy runs Mon-Wed, 1 tempo/interval/hills day, rest on Friday, then a medium-long easy or pace run on Saturday, followed by the Long SLOW Distance run on Sunday, every other week. I like how he emphasizes that it's better to err on the side of running slower; if you think you're running too fast, you probably are.
I understand! The 60+ range can be so tough to navigate. Hope you find your sweet spot and get that next big goal! @@LayneBracy1
Ok, so I am SUPER late with a comment on this video, but I couldn't help but throw this out there as it seems to really hit about what Coach is talking about. A guy at our local running store ( who is a sub 3 hour marathoner) was talking to a lady about an experience he had pacing a friend of his. His friend wanted to be under 4:30. He figured no problem and was happy to help his friend. He said that was the hardest marathon he had ever done. Every joint, tendon, foot, etc. was in agony to make it to the finish. Why? Because he never ran on his feet for that long of a continuous timeframe. He was laughing about it, but it really puts the "practice time on your feet" into perspective. We are all different, and those things must factor into a proper training plan. Great video, here.
Thank you SO much for coming here and leaving this comment!! It's easy to judge when you've never been in someone's shoes. Black and white training is not the way. Also love how supportive this friend was though!!
Hi, Jane. Your longer long run philosophy makes a lot of sense to me. Can you recommend a book or training plan for the marathon I can purchase that shares your views on longer long runs? My HM PB is 1h30 , recent. I'm signed up for my first marathon (Oct 2024, flat), targeting sub-3:20.
Hi Jimmy! Mcmillan has lots of plans and you can probably find one that suits your needs. Here is his stance on long runs: www.mcmillanrunning.com/longest-long-run-marathon/ I also write customized plans, so that could be an option, too, as it would be unique to you, your schedule and the course you're training for. Info here: readysetmarathon.com/run-coaching-services/
This is such a hot button topic within the running community. The Hanson Project recommends no more than a 16-mi long run for non-elites, while other sources go up to 22-mi regardless of experience. Do what works for you.
Even Galloway's plan goes up to 26 miles! Which I personally would never advise in my coaching, but I'm not going to sit here and say that it's wrong. Because it's run-walk and very individualized, it's also a very different approach than most are doing. So yep, I agree with you!
@@runningwithjane Thx Jane :-)
I agree with how personalized this needs to be. While training for my first marathon my longest run was over 3.5 hours, but I was doing plenty of down weeks between longer runs during that peak period to give my body plenty of time for recovery.
Exactly!! The recovery between is a huge piece!
I'm 34 now and just took seriously about running in last September of 2023. Each months I tried to progress my distance of easy run and long run at MAF pace. Now I can run my longest run 35km at 6:10mn/1km for about 3:30 hours without getting any injuries. I did back to back 3x km long run for 5 consecutive weeks already. Should I just keep do 3x km long run or over 3 hours long run like that?
We all have our own journey, to say that you have to run no more that a certain time shows a lack of empathy and knowledge of what running is all about. I have 8 marathons (training for my 9th) and most of my training is slow so that I don't get injured. My long runs passed 16 miles definitelly go over 2.5 hours but that's so that I can continue running. You do an amazing job at sharing what runing is all about, unfortunately hater will hate... that's what they are good at but please keep doing what you are doing you really make a difference.
Thanks for the kind words, Christian!
My slow pace is 12 mins a mile and I loved my 15 mile run. Looking forward to my 18 mile run this Sunday. If you don’t want to get injured, may I suggest heavy squats and deadlifts a couple times a week.
I love this! I love that you are looking forward to the increased mileage! 100% on those strength exercises...it doesn't need to be complicated...just consistent!
Great and insightful video I'm doing a marathon on the 6th of October 24 33 weeks off cud and I'm using your training plan for beginners 18 week should I do the 18 then start back to week 4 n build up again or next week just do the same week twice through 2 week 18. Thank you in advance 🙂
Hi Warren! Did you see this video and plan? It may make more sense since your marathon isn't until October. czcams.com/video/T9PfLfThUgg/video.html Otherwise, I'd say, yes, nothing wrong with doing 2 weeks in a row...you'll be that much more prepared!
Thank you il double up the weeks as I've previously ran 10ks and half marathons so I'm not a fully beginner, am I right in running all my runs in aerobic heart rate that my garmin had predicted for me of my previous runs. Thank you again for replying back to me 🙂
It really depends on context. I subscribe to the 3 hour *rule* because of the beating my joints take while on the roads.
It really depends on how the long runs are run as well. JDs 2Q plans can be absolutely brutal. Like 17 mile runs with threshold repeats mixed in along with a bunch of other paces. if you’re doing HARD work, 2.5 hours makes sense and really isn’t for people who haven’t built up for it. (I.e JD isn’t a couch to marathon program)
If you’re doing an easy paced steady run, then it’s probably ok to go past 3 hours. Jeff Galloway famously programs 3 or even 4 hour runs with his run/walk/run method.
This goes to show that there are plenty of ways to tackle a marathon and the one that you can do happy and injury free is the one for you.
Ultras I feel are a different beast and I don’t think JD is the best resource on trail ultras. Even in his book I think he deferred to someone else. Trails are less impact on the joints and naturally include walking breaks when the terrain starts getting steep or technical.
I’m sorry about trolls attacking you in the comments section. It’s ok to disagree with the ideas but you should never attack the person.
That being said, I don’t think Jack Daniel’s was trying to gatekeep slower runners with his 2.5 hour rule. I feel he was honestly trying to protect newer runners with less than ideal form from injury.
What do yoiu make of back to back runs (e.g. Saturday evening, Sunday morning) or double runs on "long run" day instead of an extremely long run? Sometimes time is a consideration more becuase of scheduling rather than an unwillingness to spend over 3 hours on my feet.
Hi Joanne! Yes, I think this works great for some people! I had a runner who, because of the nature of his work, couldn't really run for more than 2:15 at a time. So he would run a medium long run on Friday night and then do 2:15 the next morning. He had a great marathon and got a PR. Is this what I would suggest for him reaching his potential? Probably not, but it worked for what he needed. If you know that capping at 3 hours is best for you, then getting that cumulative fatigue by also running the day before, etc. can be a good strategy.
Isnt run volume a direct adaptation of your training, with proper respect to our recovery times as an individual, should we be pushing our limitations? As I progress from a 5k to an ultra runner I would need to constantly challenge my fitness adaptation to reach the next distance capability ?
Yes!! Is there more overuse injury risk as time on feet increases, yes, but this is a high-impact sport that is never going to be free from that risk. But the reason many love this sport is due to the challenge and ALL sports come with an element of risk of hurting yourself.
So what zone are you supposed to race the actual marathon in? And how can you estimate your goal pace if you're always doing long runs in zone 2?
If it's your first marathon, better typically to not have a goal time. Of course, you still want to have a general idea of what you can handle. Using a shorter distance time with a race predictor calculator will do this. Nothing wrong with being in zone 2 for the early miles in a marathon...will lead to a much stronger finish.
Also, I was thinking this is probably the only reason I don’t have a CZcams channel me and a couple people were gonna start one up at one time on nutrition and everything and the reason we decided not to it was I’ve got enough in my life that I don’t need all these people who just complainabout every word you say and everything it’s it’s ridiculous pastor friend of mine said he had a CZcams channel for a little while and he says, but every word he said on his little channel trying to help people was just ripped apart, so good video I think your plans are good from what I’ve heard about
Thanks Todd! 've actually been so lucky to have mostly supportive comments and I love this community!! These comments were no big deal - I know not everyone's going to agree with me and that's OK. I've had lots of athletes hear about this "rule" though and honestly wondering so something I knew was important to discuss.
It's all about recovery and benefits gained out of the run - how much more benefit would be from running 3 hours vs 4 hours and what would it take to recover from this? Capping long runs will allow to grow quicker at the end. Perhaps it will make more sense to have two capped long runs back to back than one 4 hour run. If you train for 100km or 24 hour run , it doesn't mean you should have 50km or 12 hour long or longer runs, isn't it?
Yeah, this is some weird generalization. Ultra Runners nearly always go over 3 hours. My PR is 3:13, I often go over 3 hours for a long run especially on trails. I do see some sanity around not making your long run be more than 50% of your total miles. Running a 20 miler when you don't cross 40 miles for the week... I question how much value there is there. There is probably more value in increasing weekday volume to get over that 40 mpw and maybe sticking to 16-18 mile long run might have more value.
I do think the more experience you have running long distance the less likely you are to get injured running big days (meaning 4+ hours on your feet).
Training for a 100 miler, I did two 50Ks (so almost 5 hours of moderate effort), and then a moderate-hard effort trail 20 miler than was 3:45 mins. I didn't get injured. I was mostly in Z2, HR average in Z2 for all those moderate effort long runs.
Fasted running? Just avoid 🙃
Great comment, lots of good stuff.
It was easy for me to listen to a stream and assume it was pertinent to me and my fitness level. I had so many injuries before i finally worked out that im not the target audience and to just listen to my body.
I still watch streamers but I keep that life lesson in mind.
Smart!! Yes, lots to take away at times and then you need to assess how that fits best for you!
My 13 mile training run today took 2 and a half hours. Guess I'll just give up now 🤔
LOL! Don't do that! I hope your run was a great one and awesome job getting out there! That's what it's all about!
While i agree there are some individual considerations to be taken account of and having a blanket approach limit is probably not a great idea (like the 10% rule)
You also need to consider chronic vs acute load as well. Stacking your long run too much vs the rest of your weekly runs can increase the risk on injury considerably. (as an extreme example 50% long run and 50% on rest of weekly runs) and while i agree that going over 3 hours has some merit occasionally especially towards the peak of your training block, the vast majority of recreational runners by FAR probably shouldn't.
Its not just the injury risk that increases you also need to consider that it also increases the recovery time and that graph IS NOT LINEAR...
if 1 hour of running has a hypothetical 1% chance of injury it would not make a 3 hour run 3%, it would be closer to 4-5% and the same thing happens with recovery.
You can limit the impact of this with strength training, nutrition and recovery but the honest truth is that most recreational runners (myself included) suck at doing this consistently
and even if you do it only reduces it and could warrant increasing it by some but how much would be very individual and should only be done by intermediate to advanced runners who knows their limits in mileage and recovery very well.
Even then there is still the classical case of diminishing returns
Ultimately the intent is not gatekeeping the runners from great results. It's gatekeeping them from injuryville or just plain burnout
Appreciate your thoughts and dialogue. Definitely not saying all who suggest this approach are gatekeeping; I know some coaches have best interest in mind. I disagree that the "vast majority of rec. runners" should not go over 3 hours. Why is that the decided amount of time that creates diminishing returns? In my experience way more injuries happening on the early end from runners who do too much too soon and run too fast vs. the runner who is smart, consistent , runs easy and has a slow build. Most of all the point is everyone is different and I'm not into a specific cap for all.
@@runningwithjane I agree that a specific cap for all isn't great but like the 10% rule it is a good starting point for those new that don't have access to a running coach.
On the diminishing returns. Like i explained the longer you go the more recovery time increases due to various physiological changes that happen during the run. That change is not linear (which is important to note and why i had it in all caps)
One 3 hours run will have a longer recovery time than 3 separate 1 hour runs on separate days.
Now that also doesn't mean that JUST splitting your run time/effort evenly is ideal.
I think most can agree that it isn't a uhh "great" training strategy.
You want some of those changes to take place which is why the long run is key.
But there is a sweet spot or tipping point where the rewards get less and less because The recovery time and injury risk increases more and more.
And for most people (especially men) that sweet spot is around the 2-3 hour mark. Which is what i trying to say. You can sure...
But it ain't ideal
Once you hit the 3 hour long run maybe and length to shorter weekly runs (if the schedule allows.
And yes sometimes people don't have time during the week. I myself have to get up at like 3-4am to get my weekly runs in. and in such cases where you simply dont have time during the week going over 3 is really your only option.
Now there is an argument to be made that women can go a little longer because they are affected less in longer runs but i would guess that most probably shouldn't go to far above 3 hours either.
Again the point of blanket approaches is to be a safety net for newbies with limited access to information.
Those who have access to a coach that can make individual considerations sure
I hate those sorts of elitist comments. I’ve been running for five years and I just finished my first marathon right at 7 hrs. Yes, I’m slow. Yes, my half pr is over the 2.5 hr mark these people are arguing for. Yes, I need a very different sort of training plan than someone looking to BQ. But that doesn’t mean I’m not a runner or that I just shouldn’t bother with the marathon.
Congrats on your first marathon finish!! Hope you're enjoying the process - that's what it's all about!
I think it all depends on your goals and the intensity at which you do your long run. I think that there is a point of diminishing returns if a runner does more than 2.5 to 3 hours above their aerobic max heart rate, or the top of zone 2. If you’re a slower runner or if training for ultras, especially 50+ mi, you pretty much need to go longer than 3 hours and you need to keep the majority of the run under the aerobic max, and even well under, if going beyond 3 hours. You mention this around the 8 minute mark. I think that the people making the negative comments don’t understand the concept fully, especially the part about using common sense.
Slow runner here. I cap my long runs around 3.5 hours but mostly because if I start 5am, by then it can get really hot around here (Indonesia). Also, hungry.
Thanks for sharing with us what works for you!! Gosh, yes, you're for sure dealing with a lot of heat and humidity!
What about me I’m 53 and my goal a week is 5 k gain I only run trails am I doing to much miles are not important to me
Hmm let me start by saying I’m 54 years old. I’m a 3:40 marathoner and my coach has me running my easy runs very easy and my hard runs hard. She makes sure to build my long runs gradually. My top mileage during a marathon cycle is 55 miles and my longest run during the cycle is 23 miles with a combination of easy/marathon pace/half marathon pace/ easy ant that take 2:45 -3:00 hours.
23 miles in 3 hours would be 7:50/mile pace... Ultimately all about trusting your coach and knowing yourself...if it works for you, it works for you.
Id say for slow marathoners like 4 1/2hrs a couple of 3 1/4hr longruns will work well. Another way to substitute a really longrun is to run the day before for 90mins...this will provide a nice pre fatigue but also a 24hr semi recovery til the 3 1/4 hr longrun. Cheers
I agree - glad you brought this up! Sometimes doing a medium long run the day before and then a longer run in that sub-2.5/3-hour timeframe works really well for people! There are definitely options. A big reason a coach can be helpful, but of course I understand that's not an option for all people so this is a good thing to play around with!
I see what you're saying Jane, the whole 2.5 hr max feels very "one size fits all"
Well, i used to run and walk uphills for 5 to 6 hours and its barely 20km. just being outside and running with no specific goal and destination is super fun for me. F elitist😅 I know its different but, i hike for 12 to 15hrs during summer seasons. Its amazing and fun!
Yes, yes, yes!! Stressing about pace and trying to finish under a certain time, etc. is really what's putting people at injury risk. Your journey sounds amazing!
Oh my. I guess everything has an opinion on the internet. Lol. So here is mine and it happens to aline with Jane. My 20 milers generally take me around 3 hours and that is with adding marathon paces. If its all slow miles then im more around 3:20. And im not getting injured from it. However I run my easy miles easy and have less impact on my body. So my opinion is do what your body is capable of. If 2:30:00 feels right and you're getting injured running longer then stick with that. However.. Id suggest some strength training to fix that. We are all on our own journey.
i run on rugged trails that is impossible to run it due to conditions my daily 8-10 milers are 1.5 to 2 hrs . my long runs of 4+ hrs and 21 mi. . im still injury free
i meant to say running it in its entireity .
Yes, exactly how it's not all black and white. It's an easy argument to say that trail runners can go out longer because of differing terrain and the forced walk breaks up steep inclines, etc. but I also just think trail runners are much better at checking their ego and not worrying about pace. Your training sounds awesome!@@fitnessfreak498
Anyone that can't spell "beginner" is disregarded. 🤷♂️🤡
I think you are missing the point with 2,5 hours. JD running formula is saying first-time marathon runners shouldn't run more than 2.5 hours. The hypothesis behind the statement is that first-time marathon runners won't benefit from training longer. So he is talking about FIRST TIME marathon runner. You do not address the tempo you run your long run 3 hours in. I doubt that it is close to marathon tempo and hence you can do it longer. There is to small benefit for first time runner running longer than 2.5 hours for first time runner but high risk for injuries. Many trainers recommend long run 30K in the Marathon program, but 30K is for many longer than 2,5 Hours. So rather focus hitting 30K the focus should be 2,5H.
Please about coffee? It’s bad?
I have seen those kinds of comments about how some people should not attempt a marathon. I took it as arrogance. Period.
Lots of gatekeeping jerks out there for sure. People who aren't even close to elite saying these things...from a 2:45 marathon to 6+ hours...we are all amateurs not getting paid so it doesn't make any sense.
Why they gotta be saying "beginner" like it's some kind of character flaw? Like it's a moral failing to be new to something? Some people are just jerks.
More exercise related injuries stem from people going too hard too fast than any other cause.
Could not agree more with everything you said!
What is ridiculous is that first comment. Most number of people run over 4 hours for a marathon, so does that mean that they are all beginners?
Yeah, like what??! Level and pace are not synonymous.
There is no best running coach
That's true!
General advice for thr general public is generally bad advice for a lot of people.
We are all different and sometimes have to find out what works for us. Might as well enjoy the process 😅
Yes and those important keywords of "find out!" There will always be trial and error and stumbles in a journey...sure wouldn't be as rewarding otherwise.
Yeah it's all individual. Some people can't do more than 3 hours. Some people thrive on it.
It's really that simple!