Yes but tldr they squandered it lost it cyric took it did the same then kelemvor took death from cyric the dead three reclaimed their stuff from cyric.
bhaal is basically the dad that often goes to jail and do serious crimes and influences his kids badly only one realizes how toxic it is and asks for help from Grandpa Withers. Withers doesn't hesitates to fight for custody and won.
I love that Withers/Jergal's reasoning is basically "If my successors are going to directly interfere in the affairs of mankind, then it's only fitting I'm allowed the same"
Accept Bhaal: You become his meat puppet after the Brain is dead. Reject Bhaal: You get adopted by Jergal, named his chosen, possibly become immortal, Uncle Minsc and Auntie Jaheira are proud of you. I know everybody has different priorities but for me personally it's a rather easy choice.
And as someone mentioned in another post your also kind of his grandkid. Well adopted, since Bhaal isn't actually the son of Jergal, he just got some of Jergals powers in a deal with him and myrkul and bane.
@@scorpiowarrior7841 Durge isn't specifically referred to as his Chosen, but Chosen are defined in bg3/5e lore as individuals imbued with divine power to do a deity or deities' bidding/fight for their cause. Post-ressurection Durge would qualify as a Chosen of Jergal by definition, even if neither Durge nor Withers seem interested in using it as a formal title like they had as Bhaal's Chosen. (Detailed explanation below the cut) Even though Bhaal only reclaimed The Dark Urge for himself, he did kill Durge the person in the process and the rest of their soul that had grown post-amnesia should have been left godless and unclaimed in the Fugue Plane for eternity. And since their soul is both unclaimed and incomplete, it wouldn't work like the (relatively) straightforward resurrections Withers usually offers up when a companion dies - while companion's souls are at least still intact after their temporary deaths, there's quite literally not enough of Durge's soul left to copy-paste back into our plane. As a result, in order for Withers/Jergal to bring Durge back to continue their fight - aka the cause they've been "Chosen" for - he would have to claim what's left of their soul for himself - the Petitioning Hexalys13 is referring too and what he means by being their advocate in the city of the dead - and then imbue it and their mortal body with some of what remains of his power over death - "I, too, hold some power, and invest a portion of it in thee." Sure, it's not a kind of power Durge could actively wield like the Slayer Form Bhaal provides, but only divine power could keep them alive and unchanged despite a massive portion of their soul being taken. And there's a good chance Jergal is the only deity who's capable of bringing a soul back in such a damaged state. Myrkul bringing Isobel back as part of his deal with Ketheric is the closest other example we get, and even then that's him likely using some of Jergal's old powers to more or less kidnap a complete and claimed soul and bring it back after what should have been too much time passed.
@@violetbluejay Also for Isobel's ressurection that could have technically been done by just a level 17 cleric with enough money for a true ressurection so why impressive it doesnt require a god per say. Though one thing i noticed is. Isobel's ressurection and Ketheric's are very different considering he is listed as an undead but she isnt. Its weird. Maybe there is notes or dialogue that explain this that i was too lazy to notice.
I love how the game tells you time and time again who he truly is, but never the direct answer. He can revive the dead at will if he wants, is a intelligent undead with divine powers, is a scribe of the dead, he awakens inside a temple of a forgotten god, and even speaks Old English. Jergal, you son of a bitch
I never got it since I never met him in his coffin in Act 1 (he just shows up at the Tiefling party night in my camp), but my friend told me the statue in his Crypt is literally Jergal statue, and plaques in the Crypt are all about Jergal, so from the get go it's quite obvious he is an avatar of Jergal
Fun Fact for the first Withers encounter, aka how I knew he was absolutely Jergal before this reveal. If you play a cleric of Kelemvor (current God of Death and all around pretty chill dude himself in the lore), you get special dialogue options when meeting Withers the first time. I don't remember exactly what it is, but it's along the lines of "I feel like i know you." To which he replies, "You kinda do." Paraphrased, obviously.
For those who haven't read the books throughout the game, Withers is almost 100% guaranteed to be Jergal, the god of the dead. He conceded his throne to the dead three (Bhaal, Myrul, and Bane)
He is! There is a book you can find in a tomb in act 3 that features a long-passed adventurer's description of meeting Jergal in person, and they describe it exactly like the scene when Withers comes out of the tomb, down to the same "wilt thou answer my question" and physical description. So cool.
I question Jergal's intent. Original tellings were that he gave up his portfolio as the god of death, tyranny, and murder willingly to Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane for no other reason than he had grown bored over the eons, only to take on the new role as the Scribe of Death. I never believed that. I believe he always had an ulterior motive behind abandoning his role in the divine pantheon. What is it? Who can say. Perhaps he felt powerless in his role and sought to defy Ao and the High Being via his unorthodox means. Perhaps he seeks to bring about the Final End of all and this is how he intends that goal. Or perhaps he truly is just bored and this is him kicking the nest just to see what stirs. It amuses me to think that Jergal is much more powerful and dangerous than his fellow gods ever gave him credit for.
He IS Jergal. Game files state so, and an official art book syates Withers as Jergal. "AskedJergalAbout" Alfiras Murder, as Dark Urge. (I don't call my Urge characters Durges or Gurges.)
@@KenS1267 Actually this is a standard practice for Larian. They introduce a number of Origin characters, put them on the cover and in the trailers.. and then slip a hidden Origin character who is the REAL Protagonist of the story into the final release. Divinity: Original Sin 2 did this with Fane, who is never depicted on the cover art or anything but has the most ties to the entire plot out of all the other Origin characters.
I remember that they stated the Dark Urge was going to be the default, but due to it being so brutal and dark they decided to make Tav. As said above me, BG is about the Bhaalspawn. I believe "Durge the Redeemed" is the canon storyline for this reason.
I kinda wish Larian had leaned into the fake out. Narrator continues and the credits start to roll - only to have them suddenly interrupted by our boy Withers.
Disagree. It would be best the first time, but after that, most players would only perceive it as a break in the flow of the scene. Once it isn't a surprise it will be an annoyance
Although not said, I can easily imagine Jaheira and Minsc being proud of seeing the heart and legacy of a good-aligned Charname and Imoen live on in the redeemed Dark Urge.
If you talk to the halfling detective about what you are when investigating the murders she is actually very chill about it and talks about how it was Bhaal that gets us into these messes but Bhaalspawn that have gotten us out of it, and that you can continue their legacy. Jaheria is also very proud of a Durge who resists and talks about how she saw the nightmares CHARNAME had as a source of pride for resisting father.
I just realized that The Dark Urge is very different from the common Bhaalspawn. Unlike Gorion's Ward, the main character of the first two games, The Dark Urge wasn't made by Bhaal knocking up a female of The Dark Urge's race, he/she is directly created from Bhaal's blood (which explains why Gorion's Ward had nightmares tempting him/her to give in to the instinct to murder, but never had the powerful impulses The Dark Urge had). And the fact that the default Dark Urge is an albino dragonborn is very interesting, there were no dragonborn on Faerun or anywhere else on Toril before Bhaal's death during the Time of Troubles, they were still in Abeir until the Spellplague happened 15 years later after Baldur's Gate 2 Throne of Bhaal.
I’m glad someone said it. I wasn’t sure if Larian was just being creative. Bear in mind there are continuity issues going from TSR who did write the “time of troubles” to WotC who is responsible for the idiocy of the spell plague. The one nagging thing I don’t like is a polymorphed red dragon calling Tiamat an arch devil. She is a deity in her own right, much the same way Kurtulmak is.
@@mikewaterfield3599 That doesn't mean he is correct. According to the 2nd Edition sourcebook "Draconomicon", sages for many ages debated whether she is a devil or demon, but they never came to an official conclusion.
I was NOT expecting to hear it, and after hearing it so many times in my childhood it was like that scene from Ratatouille where everything came rushing back.
That, and when she hollers "For the Fallen!" Heh I am glad that they brought some of the characters back from the first game. Glad I wasn't the only one grinning when I heard that.
Withers is literally one of my favourite characters in the game LOL our sassy skeletal grandfather who also happens to be a god that has stepped down from his throne 😂
Only the quick-save/quick-load keys are more powerful in BG3 than Withers/Jergal. I've said it before and I'll say it again: For a God of Death (and compared to his three successors), Withers/Jergal is quite the pleasant character in this game. His whole dialogue sequence with Arabella felt ... heart-warming. Kinda like what you would wish your own perfect authority figure or role-model (grandfather/father/mother) would've been like with you when you were a child. I know I wish my own parents would've been a bit more Withers-like when I was growing up. Well, minus the mummy-looking exterior, perhaps.. :D
I'm not a big video game guy, I most play the mainstream games. But between VGs, Movies and TV there are very few moments while consuming media where I felt the need to jump up in excitement and this is one of them. There is something SOOOOOOO satisfying about watching a character defy their predetermined fate and every part of this scene delivered.
I wish the companions reacted more to this or scenes where the person gets hurt, like in dragon age inquisition. Particularly your love interest saying something when you die would’ve been nice lol
It's not a love interest, but Astarion does react differently when you get knocked out if you play the dark urge. He says something like, "get up my dagger-happy friend".
Iirc my companions have reacted when Tav goes down at least? Lae’zel says something like. “No! *gith word I can’t remember* You can’t die!” Wyll i think just yells “No!” I know also that Tav has lines for every companion getting knocked out/killed
So glad I did Dark Urge as my first playthrough. There was so much more richness to the story with a true conflict at the heart of the MC. None of the other origins have much internal conflict except for maybe Shadowheart who i've yet to play as.
As it was, so it is again. A Hero has risen from a legacy of Death. Cool reference to previous Baldur's Gate games))) Jergal is just a magnificent SOB!
hold on, he invests a portion of his very power into the ex-bhaalspawn. Wouldnt that be... a portion of divinity? Granted, dark urge had that before, just from a different one
Really wish the game had allowed for the Bhaalspawn not just to be redeemed, but to reclaim their blood, not for Bhaal, but to become something divine in their own right (as Bhaalspawn have the potential to)
They'd only be a god that is inferior to the one whose blood they had taken. Even if one may have ascended, they'd be on the bully list compared to literally every other god (even the bitch-ass dead 3). Gale tried that when he captured some of the karsite weave with the crown in his origin playthrough. Mystra just fucking evaporated him in their duel and told him he shouldn't have tried lmao.
@@SirStanleytheStumbler Yeah, he's getting a lot of good work done. helping the disabled, helping kids and helping the abused to re take control of their fate. real stand up guy our Mr.Withers.
3:03 - I really wish that this part took longer and looked A LOT more painful!!!.. It seems a tad to "nice and gentle" for the literal God of Murder whom you pissed off to just twitch you a little and gently take out your Baal God blood. Also, while I can understand the party members not giving too much reaction, out of fear perhaps (A pissed off literal God just killed the most powerful member of your team) I do wish they would be a tad bit more upset about your "death" especially if romanced!
Well... I can top the whole "romantic partner is too indifferent"-thing: I let myself be boned by Harleep (thank God I could get it to take on a female form, lol) ... and Shadowheart was standing right next to the bed while the succubus was riding my Tav. When it was over, I immediately walked over to Shadowheart and wanted to "talk about our relationship". Then I asked for a kiss and she simply replied "I thought you'd never ask", smiling as sweetly as ever. I'm pretty sure Karlach and Minsc disapproved when I got naked for the succubus, but no "Shadowheart disapproves"-message. I know she's pretty open minded when it comes to err... sharing, but... come on, girl! :D
The way I interpreted it, he literally just took ALL the blood out of your body. Imagine your heart pumping but nothing flowing, and then your cells literally starving and choking from no oxygen or nutrients.
@@1SaG - Yeah seems that no one, romanced or not has any comment about Haarlep right after the deed.. (not until later after you leave the house of hope and have 1 long sleep, at a certain scene). Some disapprove of you getting nekid, some dont, most if not all disapprove of you making the vow.
Jergal is so strange for me. He helps Arabella, he gets upset if You dont have a spouse, he saves You from damnation after self sacrifice and throws a party once the world is saved.This hardly qualifies for a neutral god, he seems a lawful good deity.
He is neutral, cosmically speaking. He just likes you and doesn't like the Dead Three. To Withers/Jergal The fact that the dead three are 'Evil' is irrelevant, they're annoying. There's an ending where he throws you into the Fugue Plane for spoiling his party, that's definitely not 'Good'.
So im curious about something. Dark urge died, right? So shouldn't they have been cured? Tadpole gone? In Act 1, when my Durge dealt with the dwarf after he died, i saw the tadpole run off into the bushes
A Question for Jergal and everyone here. You are really dead there. Does this mean your parasite fled like the others? I mean it should in theory? So you should no longer have a parasite after this event.
Jergal is not forgettable! He's so well voice acted and once you figure out yeah, that's HIM his whole just standing there, watching everyone motif starts to make sense.
@@TheFoxYoukai YES other people who caught the significance of that line. OOooooo I already liked Withers but now it's like dude. welcome to the party can we get you anything? perhaps more to write upon? a stiff drink?? A big STONG melt your heart inside your chest with just a laugh Karlach?
Ive come to a realisation, i am really bad at playing evil characters. Im trying to play an evil durge and now im in act 3 i realise that i just cant accept bhaal
Eh, its still canon so far as I am aware. Canon just now also says that eventually it was dismantled by Kelemvor because he is too nice a guy to really make people suffer for being faithless like Myrkul and Cyric were. Now you just wander a sort of really boring purgatory for eternity, which is still worse then a nice after life provided by a patron god but not bad enough to make Kelemvor feel bad for punishing otherwise good people who just refused to worship a god.
@@mizu7662 Cyric never had any say on the wall. Kelemvor directly took Myrkul's place, and his home of the Fugue Plane. The 'dead' three are mere demi-gods now, about as powerful as Vlaakith.
I think that there was another motivating factor behind "Withers" reviving the Bhaalspawn. A small twinge of guilt, perhaps? For abandoning his divine office out of mere boredom and dividing it amongst 3 undeserving maggots, who would go on to abuse their newfound status to commit all manner of atrocities against the mortal races? Perhaps he just wanted to ease his consciensce just a little bit? Although, that is just a biased and unfounded theory.
It's interesting to see an exarch of Kelemvor like Withers to let the Dark Urge live after abandoning their God. I guess he must regret granting godhood to bhaal.
I mean withers kinda predates kelemvor by A LOT seeing as the title of god of death went through like 2 or 3 people between jergal (withers) before kelemvor took up the mantle
You know what I like about redeemed Durge? The fact that never is it ever mentioned or hinted at (at least to my knowledge) that if Durge rejects their inheritance, they'll be punished by death. This is unlike how the companions' storylines go. You will know, to some extent, which choices might lead to their death or what ending awaits them through subtly done interactions. But not Durge. You won't know what even hit you until it's too late.
I do recall seeing "Gorion's Ward" mentioned in a book in Jergal's temple near the start. I think Jaheira mentions meeting other bhaalspawn, too. I haven't beaten the game yet though. Honestly I hope they just leave the identity of Charname vague like the Elder Scrolls does for previous protagonists rather than some enforced "canon" version. Honestly I'm a little surprised they didn't add an option for importing a save file.
@@ENCHANTMEN_ Sadly, WotC demanded that the horrendous novels with ""Abdel Adrian"" be the official canon that Larian had to work with for the game. Hence also why Viconia is now a cartoon villain.
Wyll mentions at some point that he met Gorion’s Ward, and there’s Gorion’s mausoleum in the graveyard in the city. Those are the closest you’ll get to it, alongside Sarevok, Minsc and Jaheira, afaik. The ward doesn’t seem to get a specific name in BG3
Something tells me he aims to either reclaim his godhood, or become a different god instead. He clearly has a plan for the adventurers whatever that may be, and he openly loathes Murkul, Bane as well as Bhaal by abusing their power.
@AlcheaNemesis I have one issue with the claim that Larian are faithful to D&D 5th to a fault. I agree they should have told WOTC what to go do with themselves, like Bioware did before them. Bioware followed the rule set of the time their D&D games were developed, but they told WOTC to shove their 'lore.' However, Larian portrays the 'Dead' Three as being gods in BG3, but they are not gods in 5th edition lore. So they obviously could, and therefore should have followed the BG's series game lore for the character cameos. Larian really did Viconia and Sarevok dirty, to name just two.
I knew from the get go, not researching anything...on my first encounter, I knew this God was no ordinary undead, hell no......way too divine in terms of death to be an ordinary undead and I was right.
Jergel in a nutshell Jergel:No i will not stand for this, Urge i will help you help me to help you piss off your father that is my successor. Urge: Thank you bone daddy
Originally it was the only custom character but they added the "Tav" option because they were worried people would complain about being forced to play the dark urge.
Depends how you interpret the "death will not claim you while i endure" part. Dies he mean death bc of this specific cause, or death itself. I think its just this ressurection.
It’s hard to say if he’s being literal. But the cut epilogue had Jergal telling the good aligned dark urge to stay ready, because he may need them again soon. So it’s pretty clear jergal does have bigger plans for dark urge.
I was unsure about this too... Withers (Jergal) tells us he is "Eternal" and that "death will not claim you while I endure". I decided that he does indeed make you immortal, he calls you "child of none" so your soul has nowhere to go if you were to die and Jeral said he would not allow that. So it is now my canon that my pc is immortal after this. I do wish the others had more dialogue about it though or that it was mentioned somewhere in game at least other than Astarion saying it was "very Twee"...LOL
I got killed by Orin in the duel, then we killed her. It seemed like a good idea to disaploint Bhaal. Littlw did I know that fucked up my whole game ending. Great.
I'm still playing Act 1 with my Dark Urge character but I'm wondering something (feel free with the spoilers obviously). Do you need to do some amount of resisting prior to having the choice to reject Bhaal ? Wither makes it sound like the character is a hero for rejecting the god of murder but he could just be rejecting authority and being bound to the god. Basically is the rejecting Bhaal part the end of a redemption arc or can it be the last minute decision of a heinous murder still attached to his freedom?
Your dark urges prior to this scene will only affect characters and give you some boons. You can literally do a full on bad durge playthrough and still reject Bhaal.
It has to do with 'direct' meddling. The Three Stooges couldn't come down in all their demi-power glory and make things happen - Ao dictated that mortals had to be free to decide their own fates. The deities of Faerun can manipulate, encourage, entice, etc. They cannot say "You will do this, and I am casting a geas to make you, random citizen #243 who doesn't even worship me do what I say". They had to empower fallible, killable, free-willed mortals and let things play out from there. What they did was so irresponsible, meddling with the balance of souls like that. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul aren't known for common sense or impulse control, and a good deal of the cosmic issues faced in the Realms over the last 2 centuries can be traced directly back to those Three, lol.
@@etainapgwynnedd827 I see. interesting. don't mean to be argumentative but I do note that "direct" meddling is at best vague in DND terms, considering bhaalspawns are a thing and myrkul could just bail ketheric's mortal ass when nearing death.
From what I understand in the official world of DnD/Baldur's Gate, is that any god can influence the world via mortals, as almost every god/goddess has a cult, church, or following, but they can never fully manifest onto the Material Plane. So think of it like in the Elder Scrolls games, the Daedra and Gods can't fully enter the world at full power, and instead can only do so through Avatars of reduced power, Chosen/Champions, or boons and gifts. In this instance, Bhaal is merely reclaiming a vessel of his power, as the Dark Urge is just a creation formed from him. Withers is hinted at being a "retired" god to put it in plain terms, and while he can't fully change fates, he still has access to some of his old power and can altar them a bit, as long as there is a loophole he can abuse. So for example, it is the PC's fate to fight the Netherbrain, be it destroy it or dominate it, Withers takes that and just applies it to the Dark Urge after Bhaal reclaimed his power. He is essentially abusing a loophole in a contract. But that is why the hirelings he can give you aren't fully characters, they are like simulacrums of the original, as he can't fully revive those people.
Im surprised Jergal is not evil despite originaly holding all the portofolos of the dead three, Strife, Murder, Death, In the game he behaves as lawful good, not lawful nutral as its stated in the source material. Its also stated that he now serves Kelemvor yet somehow retains more authority then Kelemvor. As Kelemvor would have judged the bhaal spawn differently by smashing her soul into the wall of the faithless as he did in Never Winter Nights 2. Supersceeding a gods judgment by no longer being a god him self is fantastic and scarry at the same time. I wonder where he gets his authority and power from, as he is no longer recieving faith to sustain his godhood, staus and power.
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withers really turned up and said "no faith, no gods, no bitches, no afterlife, i will not stand for it"
And Bhaal has to accept it, as Withers is far more powerful.
@@richardshiflett5181 Bhaal only holds some portion of his power. He was much more than 3 of them combined.
@@ladyselin35 Not any more though. Kelemvor is the real Chad of Death these days.
@@Draec didnt Jeargal hired his realm to those three and hed come and take it whenever hed like?
Yes but tldr they squandered it lost it cyric took it did the same then kelemvor took death from cyric the dead three reclaimed their stuff from cyric.
Grandpa Jergal basically just stole custody over their grandkid from their worthless disappointment of a son Bhaal.
Well, you've won my corner of the internet for today
If Bhaal can't keep his kids in check then he's the disappointment
_wheeze_
bhaal is basically the dad that often goes to jail and do serious crimes and influences his kids badly only one realizes how toxic it is and asks for help from Grandpa Withers. Withers doesn't hesitates to fight for custody and won.
It is true though, Withers is our grandfather. Never occured to me :)
I love that Withers/Jergal's reasoning is basically "If my successors are going to directly interfere in the affairs of mankind, then it's only fitting I'm allowed the same"
Accept Bhaal: You become his meat puppet after the Brain is dead.
Reject Bhaal: You get adopted by Jergal, named his chosen, possibly become immortal, Uncle Minsc and Auntie Jaheira are proud of you.
I know everybody has different priorities but for me personally it's a rather easy choice.
wait wait wait waitttt....Does he really name you his chosen?
@@scorpiowarrior7841 It’s never strictly stated. If not his Chosen, then the Dark Urge is at least the first Petitioner Jergal has had in centuries.
And as someone mentioned in another post your also kind of his grandkid. Well adopted, since Bhaal isn't actually the son of Jergal, he just got some of Jergals powers in a deal with him and myrkul and bane.
@@scorpiowarrior7841 Durge isn't specifically referred to as his Chosen, but Chosen are defined in bg3/5e lore as individuals imbued with divine power to do a deity or deities' bidding/fight for their cause. Post-ressurection Durge would qualify as a Chosen of Jergal by definition, even if neither Durge nor Withers seem interested in using it as a formal title like they had as Bhaal's Chosen. (Detailed explanation below the cut)
Even though Bhaal only reclaimed The Dark Urge for himself, he did kill Durge the person in the process and the rest of their soul that had grown post-amnesia should have been left godless and unclaimed in the Fugue Plane for eternity. And since their soul is both unclaimed and incomplete, it wouldn't work like the (relatively) straightforward resurrections Withers usually offers up when a companion dies - while companion's souls are at least still intact after their temporary deaths, there's quite literally not enough of Durge's soul left to copy-paste back into our plane. As a result, in order for Withers/Jergal to bring Durge back to continue their fight - aka the cause they've been "Chosen" for - he would have to claim what's left of their soul for himself - the Petitioning Hexalys13 is referring too and what he means by being their advocate in the city of the dead - and then imbue it and their mortal body with some of what remains of his power over death - "I, too, hold some power, and invest a portion of it in thee."
Sure, it's not a kind of power Durge could actively wield like the Slayer Form Bhaal provides, but only divine power could keep them alive and unchanged despite a massive portion of their soul being taken. And there's a good chance Jergal is the only deity who's capable of bringing a soul back in such a damaged state. Myrkul bringing Isobel back as part of his deal with Ketheric is the closest other example we get, and even then that's him likely using some of Jergal's old powers to more or less kidnap a complete and claimed soul and bring it back after what should have been too much time passed.
@@violetbluejay Also for Isobel's ressurection that could have technically been done by just a level 17 cleric with enough money for a true ressurection so why impressive it doesnt require a god per say. Though one thing i noticed is. Isobel's ressurection and Ketheric's are very different considering he is listed as an undead but she isnt. Its weird. Maybe there is notes or dialogue that explain this that i was too lazy to notice.
I love how the game tells you time and time again who he truly is, but never the direct answer. He can revive the dead at will if he wants, is a intelligent undead with divine powers, is a scribe of the dead, he awakens inside a temple of a forgotten god, and even speaks Old English. Jergal, you son of a bitch
He also has the power to protect the soul of that bard from Bhaal. Only someone more powerful can do that.
I never got it since I never met him in his coffin in Act 1 (he just shows up at the Tiefling party night in my camp), but my friend told me the statue in his Crypt is literally Jergal statue, and plaques in the Crypt are all about Jergal, so from the get go it's quite obvious he is an avatar of Jergal
@@richardshiflett5181Oh, that is actually pretty sweet
But...there's a book that literally says who he is in game...
Bard soul? Alfira?
Fun Fact for the first Withers encounter, aka how I knew he was absolutely Jergal before this reveal.
If you play a cleric of Kelemvor (current God of Death and all around pretty chill dude himself in the lore), you get special dialogue options when meeting Withers the first time. I don't remember exactly what it is, but it's along the lines of "I feel like i know you." To which he replies, "You kinda do."
Paraphrased, obviously.
"Thank you, Bone Man, for being nice."
"I am not Nice" Skeletor
Remember folks: the dwarf giant space hamster didn't doubt you for a second, so make sure you never let him down.
For those who haven't read the books throughout the game, Withers is almost 100% guaranteed to be Jergal, the god of the dead. He conceded his throne to the dead three (Bhaal, Myrul, and Bane)
He is! There is a book you can find in a tomb in act 3 that features a long-passed adventurer's description of meeting Jergal in person, and they describe it exactly like the scene when Withers comes out of the tomb, down to the same "wilt thou answer my question" and physical description. So cool.
I question Jergal's intent. Original tellings were that he gave up his portfolio as the god of death, tyranny, and murder willingly to Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane for no other reason than he had grown bored over the eons, only to take on the new role as the Scribe of Death.
I never believed that. I believe he always had an ulterior motive behind abandoning his role in the divine pantheon. What is it? Who can say. Perhaps he felt powerless in his role and sought to defy Ao and the High Being via his unorthodox means. Perhaps he seeks to bring about the Final End of all and this is how he intends that goal. Or perhaps he truly is just bored and this is him kicking the nest just to see what stirs.
It amuses me to think that Jergal is much more powerful and dangerous than his fellow gods ever gave him credit for.
I did wonder if at the end, where he has his speech, whether he stripped them of their power or...at least say that something will happen.
@@spade749He is Just a cool death god
He IS Jergal. Game files state so, and an official art book syates Withers as Jergal.
"AskedJergalAbout" Alfiras Murder, as Dark Urge. (I don't call my Urge characters Durges or Gurges.)
It really seems that The Dark Urge was meant to be the canon playthrough, as it has so many unique encounters and story variations.
the first 2 games follows another bhaal spawn u play as too, so i think so as well
I wonder why they backed off it. Baldur's Gate has always been about the Bhaalspawn.
It was, kinda. It was going to be the only playthrough before they added basic tav.
@@KenS1267 Actually this is a standard practice for Larian. They introduce a number of Origin characters, put them on the cover and in the trailers.. and then slip a hidden Origin character who is the REAL Protagonist of the story into the final release.
Divinity: Original Sin 2 did this with Fane, who is never depicted on the cover art or anything but has the most ties to the entire plot out of all the other Origin characters.
I remember that they stated the Dark Urge was going to be the default, but due to it being so brutal and dark they decided to make Tav. As said above me, BG is about the Bhaalspawn. I believe "Durge the Redeemed" is the canon storyline for this reason.
He may look like a bag of bones, but Withers, aka Grandpa Jergal is the best character watching over The Dark Urge.
And here, we watched Bhaal’s child become Jergal’s Chosen 🖤
I kinda wish Larian had leaned into the fake out. Narrator continues and the credits start to roll - only to have them suddenly interrupted by our boy Withers.
"where dost thou think thou are going? Thou hast a fight to finish"
Just like when you lost to Thor in your first combat against him in GOW Ragnarok. It would be cool.
@@edschramm6757Wakest up, Urgerai. Thou hast a kingdom to burn.
Disagree. It would be best the first time, but after that, most players would only perceive it as a break in the flow of the scene. Once it isn't a surprise it will be an annoyance
Although not said, I can easily imagine Jaheira and Minsc being proud of seeing the heart and legacy of a good-aligned Charname and Imoen live on in the redeemed Dark Urge.
If you talk to the halfling detective about what you are when investigating the murders she is actually very chill about it and talks about how it was Bhaal that gets us into these messes but Bhaalspawn that have gotten us out of it, and that you can continue their legacy. Jaheria is also very proud of a Durge who resists and talks about how she saw the nightmares CHARNAME had as a source of pride for resisting father.
btw, what happened to imoen ?
@@raquedabord898 probably dead since orin and dark urge are the last bhaalspawn alive
@@raquedabord898 Died of old age.
She passed away peacefully. @@raquedabord898
I just realized that The Dark Urge is very different from the common Bhaalspawn. Unlike Gorion's Ward, the main character of the first two games, The Dark Urge wasn't made by Bhaal knocking up a female of The Dark Urge's race, he/she is directly created from Bhaal's blood (which explains why Gorion's Ward had nightmares tempting him/her to give in to the instinct to murder, but never had the powerful impulses The Dark Urge had). And the fact that the default Dark Urge is an albino dragonborn is very interesting, there were no dragonborn on Faerun or anywhere else on Toril before Bhaal's death during the Time of Troubles, they were still in Abeir until the Spellplague happened 15 years later after Baldur's Gate 2 Throne of Bhaal.
Always enjoy reading your insightful comments! Thanks LightStreak
I’m glad someone said it. I wasn’t sure if Larian was just being creative. Bear in mind there are continuity issues going from TSR who did write the “time of troubles” to WotC who is responsible for the idiocy of the spell plague. The one nagging thing I don’t like is a polymorphed red dragon calling Tiamat an arch devil. She is a deity in her own right, much the same way Kurtulmak is.
@@mikewaterfield3599 I don't remember Tiamat ever being called an "arch devil"...
@@LightStreak567 there’s a potential encounter with Voss’s dragon polymorphed in the sewers who calls her one.
@@mikewaterfield3599 That doesn't mean he is correct. According to the 2nd Edition sourcebook "Draconomicon", sages for many ages debated whether she is a devil or demon, but they never came to an official conclusion.
Withers is a badass, very well thought out character, this game never ceases to impress.
That line at the end "Nature's servant awaits" hit me in the core memory HARD.
I was NOT expecting to hear it, and after hearing it so many times in my childhood it was like that scene from Ratatouille where everything came rushing back.
Made a lot of sense for my Dark Urge Druid when I got there.
That, and when she hollers "For the Fallen!" Heh I am glad that they brought some of the characters back from the first game. Glad I wasn't the only one grinning when I heard that.
what a brilliant way to incorporate character respecs into the story
Withers is literally one of my favourite characters in the game LOL our sassy skeletal grandfather who also happens to be a god that has stepped down from his throne 😂
I love the "Nature's servant awaits" reference at the end...
Wonder if Minsc should have his reference also there, or a reference then?
What is it referencing?
@@fedorustimenko3057It was one of her lines in the first Baldur's Gate, when you clicked on her.
Only the quick-save/quick-load keys are more powerful in BG3 than Withers/Jergal.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: For a God of Death (and compared to his three successors), Withers/Jergal is quite the pleasant character in this game. His whole dialogue sequence with Arabella felt ... heart-warming. Kinda like what you would wish your own perfect authority figure or role-model (grandfather/father/mother) would've been like with you when you were a child. I know I wish my own parents would've been a bit more Withers-like when I was growing up. Well, minus the mummy-looking exterior, perhaps.. :D
5:42 The dreaded 'continue' bug. When are they going to fix this...
It still goes on. Literally kills all RP.
I'm not a big video game guy, I most play the mainstream games. But between VGs, Movies and TV there are very few moments while consuming media where I felt the need to jump up in excitement and this is one of them. There is something SOOOOOOO satisfying about watching a character defy their predetermined fate and every part of this scene delivered.
This was a truly redeeming moment for Jergal.
I wish the companions reacted more to this or scenes where the person gets hurt, like in dragon age inquisition. Particularly your love interest saying something when you die would’ve been nice lol
It's not a love interest, but Astarion does react differently when you get knocked out if you play the dark urge. He says something like, "get up my dagger-happy friend".
Iirc my companions have reacted when Tav goes down at least?
Lae’zel says something like. “No! *gith word I can’t remember* You can’t die!”
Wyll i think just yells “No!”
I know also that Tav has lines for every companion getting knocked out/killed
@antman1672 no! My dear dagger happy friend
Or normal
NO! YOU CANT DIE GET UP DAMN YOU
@@FlowerSong606gale says "NOW IS NO TIME TO DIE! YOU MUST GET UP"
I had astarian say " NOOOO, MY SWEET, BLOODTHIRSTY FRIEND" when i died once
I love how Withers basically reveals he’s Jergal
So glad I did Dark Urge as my first playthrough. There was so much more richness to the story with a true conflict at the heart of the MC. None of the other origins have much internal conflict except for maybe Shadowheart who i've yet to play as.
the chad Withers vs the virgin Bhaal
So many good lines, even within these divergent paths!
As it was, so it is again.
A Hero has risen from a legacy of Death.
Cool reference to previous Baldur's Gate games)))
Jergal is just a magnificent SOB!
God this game is so well written. Wither's speech was just... chills. Literal chills.
hold on, he invests a portion of his very power into the ex-bhaalspawn.
Wouldnt that be... a portion of divinity? Granted, dark urge had that before, just from a different one
Chosen... of a small, smouldering remnant.
Really wish the game had allowed for the Bhaalspawn not just to be redeemed, but to reclaim their blood, not for Bhaal, but to become something divine in their own right (as Bhaalspawn have the potential to)
I feel like you could make a case that durge becomes a chosen of jergal (withers)
@@lfnic True, but when I say divine, I mean they have the actual potential to become gods that rival or overpower Bhaal.
@@Norinia thats fair, dlc posibility fr
They'd only be a god that is inferior to the one whose blood they had taken. Even if one may have ascended, they'd be on the bully list compared to literally every other god (even the bitch-ass dead 3).
Gale tried that when he captured some of the karsite weave with the crown in his origin playthrough. Mystra just fucking evaporated him in their duel and told him he shouldn't have tried lmao.
@@Norinia Ah, the old JRPG route.
Jergal, the original God of Death.
Retirement suits him.
@@SirStanleytheStumbler Yeah, he's getting a lot of good work done. helping the disabled, helping kids and helping the abused to re take control of their fate. real stand up guy our Mr.Withers.
Whoa, Geralt moving on up.
3:03 - I really wish that this part took longer and looked A LOT more painful!!!.. It seems a tad to "nice and gentle" for the literal God of Murder whom you pissed off to just twitch you a little and gently take out your Baal God blood. Also, while I can understand the party members not giving too much reaction, out of fear perhaps (A pissed off literal God just killed the most powerful member of your team) I do wish they would be a tad bit more upset about your "death" especially if romanced!
Well... I can top the whole "romantic partner is too indifferent"-thing:
I let myself be boned by Harleep (thank God I could get it to take on a female form, lol) ... and Shadowheart was standing right next to the bed while the succubus was riding my Tav. When it was over, I immediately walked over to Shadowheart and wanted to "talk about our relationship". Then I asked for a kiss and she simply replied "I thought you'd never ask", smiling as sweetly as ever. I'm pretty sure Karlach and Minsc disapproved when I got naked for the succubus, but no "Shadowheart disapproves"-message. I know she's pretty open minded when it comes to err... sharing, but... come on, girl! :D
The way I interpreted it, he literally just took ALL the blood out of your body. Imagine your heart pumping but nothing flowing, and then your cells literally starving and choking from no oxygen or nutrients.
@@1SaG - Yeah seems that no one, romanced or not has any comment about Haarlep right after the deed.. (not until later after you leave the house of hope and have 1 long sleep, at a certain scene).
Some disapprove of you getting nekid, some dont, most if not all disapprove of you making the vow.
Bhaal unplugged the Dark Urge...
Leaving room for Withers to apply some jumper cables.
After completing my 1st playthrough, I thought that was it, no more bg3. After watching this, twice. Time for my 2nd playthrough.
I love this scene! I just wish the game format let us be in one of our parties arms when Withers walks in.
Jergal is so strange for me. He helps Arabella, he gets upset if You dont have a spouse, he saves You from damnation after self sacrifice and throws a party once the world is saved.This hardly qualifies for a neutral god, he seems a lawful good deity.
He is neutral, cosmically speaking. He just likes you and doesn't like the Dead Three.
To Withers/Jergal The fact that the dead three are 'Evil' is irrelevant, they're annoying.
There's an ending where he throws you into the Fugue Plane for spoiling his party, that's definitely not 'Good'.
5:00 Rise, if you would. For that is your curse.
I'm going to create a cleric of lathander dark urge dragonborn called "partysnax"
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It's a skyrim reference
I see what you did there 😂👌
Withers really be here like "Nah mate, this is my kid now."
Withers really said "im tired, you're the new jergal now, have fun"
This game is going to take me 3 freaking years to finish ❤
An optimist I see ;)
He's definitely jergal
you know what would be really cool, if somehow the darkurges was the same baalspawn from previous games
Ok now I really have to play Dark Urge!
Who is it that keeps sauntering in the background?
So im curious about something. Dark urge died, right? So shouldn't they have been cured? Tadpole gone? In Act 1, when my Durge dealt with the dwarf after he died, i saw the tadpole run off into the bushes
A Question for Jergal and everyone here. You are really dead there. Does this mean your parasite fled like the others? I mean it should in theory? So you should no longer have a parasite after this event.
Nature's servant awaits
so not only does it confirms to be the best background but also gives value to the most forgettable character in camp
Well I mean, Jergal is the quite literal god of Death. He has immense value in that alone :p
Jergal is not forgettable! He's so well voice acted and once you figure out yeah, that's HIM his whole just standing there, watching everyone motif starts to make sense.
@@TheFoxYoukai YES other people who caught the significance of that line. OOooooo I already liked Withers but now it's like dude. welcome to the party can we get you anything? perhaps more to write upon? a stiff drink?? A big STONG melt your heart inside your chest with just a laugh Karlach?
Man I know Dark Urge is good but I just can't stomach killing Alviera she's just to wholesome
@@ErenKruger-qx3dt Knock her out before you long rest that night. Save scum if you need. Another NPC will take her place.
The guy in the Background XD
is withers jergal, or an avatar of jergal? Like what that scythe guy was to myrkul
Ive come to a realisation, i am really bad at playing evil characters. Im trying to play an evil durge and now im in act 3 i realise that i just cant accept bhaal
Revival Scroll: Do I mean nothing to you!?
4:18 I forgot that Wall of the Faithless was decanonized. There goes my dream for Mask of the Betrayer re-release.
Eh, its still canon so far as I am aware. Canon just now also says that eventually it was dismantled by Kelemvor because he is too nice a guy to really make people suffer for being faithless like Myrkul and Cyric were. Now you just wander a sort of really boring purgatory for eternity, which is still worse then a nice after life provided by a patron god but not bad enough to make Kelemvor feel bad for punishing otherwise good people who just refused to worship a god.
@@mizu7662
Blah, what a cop out. At least Kaelyn's crusade succeeded, in a way.
@@mizu7662 Cyric never had any say on the wall. Kelemvor directly took Myrkul's place, and his home of the Fugue Plane. The 'dead' three are mere demi-gods now, about as powerful as Vlaakith.
@@budakbaongsiah Mask of the Betrayer was a great game. It did everything BG3 did, many years before Larian even existed.
@@Lonewanderer30 I could have sworn Cyric was god of the dead for awhile? I thought he held all 3 of the dead 3's portfolios at one point.
So the Dark Urge can be redeemed. Good to knw
I think that there was another motivating factor behind "Withers" reviving the Bhaalspawn. A small twinge of guilt, perhaps? For abandoning his divine office out of mere boredom and dividing it amongst 3 undeserving maggots, who would go on to abuse their newfound status to commit all manner of atrocities against the mortal races? Perhaps he just wanted to ease his consciensce just a little bit? Although, that is just a biased and unfounded theory.
Bhaal being a baby: im taking my toy and going home
Withers the adult: no thats not yours anymore. *yoink
Lol the "continue" bug
Is this the only way d urge can get the "in my name" absolute ending?
Withers ROCKS!
It's interesting to see an exarch of Kelemvor like Withers to let the Dark Urge live after abandoning their God. I guess he must regret granting godhood to bhaal.
I mean withers kinda predates kelemvor by A LOT seeing as the title of god of death went through like 2 or 3 people between jergal (withers) before kelemvor took up the mantle
Meanwhile Ao:
*I... will allow that....*
Man, Withers is so badass
He’s clearly Jergal.
wish i went with this lol. I accepted the Slayer and had to kill Jaheira because she came to kill me.
What's that armor?
Withers is the ultimate wingman
You know what I like about redeemed Durge? The fact that never is it ever mentioned or hinted at (at least to my knowledge) that if Durge rejects their inheritance, they'll be punished by death. This is unlike how the companions' storylines go. You will know, to some extent, which choices might lead to their death or what ending awaits them through subtly done interactions. But not Durge. You won't know what even hit you until it's too late.
This is super cool 😮 5:03
So I’ve spoiled this all for myself and I’m wondering. Does the BG1 protagonist make an appearance? Are they talked about at all?
I do recall seeing "Gorion's Ward" mentioned in a book in Jergal's temple near the start. I think Jaheira mentions meeting other bhaalspawn, too. I haven't beaten the game yet though.
Honestly I hope they just leave the identity of Charname vague like the Elder Scrolls does for previous protagonists rather than some enforced "canon" version. Honestly I'm a little surprised they didn't add an option for importing a save file.
@@ENCHANTMEN_a save file from a 20 yr old game? Or the remakes from a different company?
@@ENCHANTMEN_ Sadly, WotC demanded that the horrendous novels with ""Abdel Adrian"" be the official canon that Larian had to work with for the game. Hence also why Viconia is now a cartoon villain.
Wyll mentions at some point that he met Gorion’s Ward, and there’s Gorion’s mausoleum in the graveyard in the city. Those are the closest you’ll get to it, alongside Sarevok, Minsc and Jaheira, afaik. The ward doesn’t seem to get a specific name in BG3
they are talked about/referenced a few times, but no appearance no.
What armor is that?
Something tells me he aims to either reclaim his godhood, or become a different god instead. He clearly has a plan for the adventurers whatever that may be, and he openly loathes Murkul, Bane as well as Bhaal by abusing their power.
@AlcheaNemesis I have one issue with the claim that Larian are faithful to D&D 5th to a fault. I agree they should have told WOTC what to go do with themselves, like Bioware did before them. Bioware followed the rule set of the time their D&D games were developed, but they told WOTC to shove their 'lore.' However, Larian portrays the 'Dead' Three as being gods in BG3, but they are not gods in 5th edition lore. So they obviously could, and therefore should have followed the BG's series game lore for the character cameos. Larian really did Viconia and Sarevok dirty, to name just two.
Jergal was always my favorite of the pantheon in such in my games he was still the God if Death in my stories. BG3 solidified it for me 😂
I knew from the get go, not researching anything...on my first encounter, I knew this God was no ordinary undead, hell no......way too divine in terms of death to be an ordinary undead and I was right.
I know if nobody got me BOO GOT MEEEEEE!
Withers for the WIN!!
Withers sounds like Irenicus.
Jergel in a nutshell
Jergel:No i will not stand for this, Urge i will help you help me to help you piss off your father that is my successor.
Urge: Thank you bone daddy
Is the dark urge thing the most “canon” character? It seems like there is so much more content for it now
Originally it was the only custom character but they added the "Tav" option because they were worried people would complain about being forced to play the dark urge.
I got this scene a few days ago. I wonder what happens if you didn't release WIthers before.
If you do not release Withers, he eventually just shows up at your camp
what I would give to experience this masterpiece for the first time all over again
6:17 WITHERS SAYS 'YOU' INSTEAD OF 'THEE'??? 😮😮😮
So not sure if im hearing right but did Withers(Jergal) make guy immortal?
no. he just resurrected you
Depends how you interpret the "death will not claim you while i endure" part. Dies he mean death bc of this specific cause, or death itself. I think its just this ressurection.
It’s hard to say if he’s being literal. But the cut epilogue had Jergal telling the good aligned dark urge to stay ready, because he may need them again soon. So it’s pretty clear jergal does have bigger plans for dark urge.
I was unsure about this too... Withers (Jergal) tells us he is "Eternal" and that "death will not claim you while I endure". I decided that he does indeed make you immortal, he calls you "child of none" so your soul has nowhere to go if you were to die and Jeral said he would not allow that. So it is now my canon that my pc is immortal after this.
I do wish the others had more dialogue about it though or that it was mentioned somewhere in game at least other than Astarion saying it was "very Twee"...LOL
@@FranWest. "immortal" in the sense that Jergal can always revive you probably.
I got killed by Orin in the duel, then we killed her. It seemed like a good idea to disaploint Bhaal. Littlw did I know that fucked up my whole game ending. Great.
Bhaal kinda sounds like Garrett from witcher
Just who is withers I feel he's like the realms caretaker
Not directly interfering but helps just enough to keep the balance
Do you know Jergal...
As much as I love the narrator for this game I definitely think withers should of been the one to do it lol
I like BG3 Granny Jaheira so much more than BG1 and 2's versions.
Oh hello Doug Cockle.
What armor is the drow wearing?
Elven Chain
I'm still playing Act 1 with my Dark Urge character but I'm wondering something (feel free with the spoilers obviously). Do you need to do some amount of resisting prior to having the choice to reject Bhaal ? Wither makes it sound like the character is a hero for rejecting the god of murder but he could just be rejecting authority and being bound to the god. Basically is the rejecting Bhaal part the end of a redemption arc or can it be the last minute decision of a heinous murder still attached to his freedom?
I believe you get the option to reject hime regardless of your previous choices though I'm not 100% sure
Your dark urges prior to this scene will only affect characters and give you some boons. You can literally do a full on bad durge playthrough and still reject Bhaal.
Is that Matt Mercer as Minsc?
Yes
I thought Ao prevents deities from meddling in Faerun? How come the dead 3 could do what they wanted?
It has to do with 'direct' meddling. The Three Stooges couldn't come down in all their demi-power glory and make things happen - Ao dictated that mortals had to be free to decide their own fates. The deities of Faerun can manipulate, encourage, entice, etc. They cannot say "You will do this, and I am casting a geas to make you, random citizen #243 who doesn't even worship me do what I say". They had to empower fallible, killable, free-willed mortals and let things play out from there. What they did was so irresponsible, meddling with the balance of souls like that. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul aren't known for common sense or impulse control, and a good deal of the cosmic issues faced in the Realms over the last 2 centuries can be traced directly back to those Three, lol.
@@etainapgwynnedd827 I see. interesting. don't mean to be argumentative but I do note that "direct" meddling is at best vague in DND terms, considering bhaalspawns are a thing and myrkul could just bail ketheric's mortal ass when nearing death.
@@jescruz5465Well, they're still those gods' agents carrying out their will instead of direct avatars.
From what I understand in the official world of DnD/Baldur's Gate, is that any god can influence the world via mortals, as almost every god/goddess has a cult, church, or following, but they can never fully manifest onto the Material Plane. So think of it like in the Elder Scrolls games, the Daedra and Gods can't fully enter the world at full power, and instead can only do so through Avatars of reduced power, Chosen/Champions, or boons and gifts. In this instance, Bhaal is merely reclaiming a vessel of his power, as the Dark Urge is just a creation formed from him. Withers is hinted at being a "retired" god to put it in plain terms, and while he can't fully change fates, he still has access to some of his old power and can altar them a bit, as long as there is a loophole he can abuse. So for example, it is the PC's fate to fight the Netherbrain, be it destroy it or dominate it, Withers takes that and just applies it to the Dark Urge after Bhaal reclaimed his power. He is essentially abusing a loophole in a contract. But that is why the hirelings he can give you aren't fully characters, they are like simulacrums of the original, as he can't fully revive those people.
Im surprised Jergal is not evil despite originaly holding all the portofolos of the dead three, Strife, Murder, Death,
In the game he behaves as lawful good, not lawful nutral as its stated in the source material. Its also stated that he now serves Kelemvor yet somehow retains more authority then Kelemvor. As Kelemvor would have judged the bhaal spawn differently by smashing her soul into the wall of the faithless as he did in Never Winter Nights 2. Supersceeding a gods judgment by no longer being a god him self is fantastic and scarry at the same time. I wonder where he gets his authority and power from, as he is no longer recieving faith to sustain his godhood, staus and power.
Good Guy Jergal