Genitour or Elite Skirmisher?
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2022
- If you have access to both the Genitour and Elite Skirmisher, which one should you pick? Well, it's complicated...
1:10 Castle Age comparison
4:11 Elite Skirmisher vs Genitour
4:40 vs crossbows
5:30 vs pikemen
6:00 vs cavalry archers
7:17 vs elephant archers
8:10 vs camel archers
9:20 Imperial Age comparison
10:11 Elite Skirmisher vs Elite Genitour
10:38 vs arbalester
11:15 vs halberdier
11:37 vs heavy cavalry archer
12:20 Elite camel archer vs cav archers
13:05 vs elite elephant archer
14:00 Imperial Skirmisher vs Elite Genitour
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Previous (outdated) Genitour video: • Genitours AoE2 (outdat...
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - Hry
The answer is, of course, Teutonic Knight
Call an ambulance but not for meeeeeeee
You'll catch them..... Eventually...
@@9051team Their base can't run away!
Compelled by faith, thou have no choice.
funny thing is that Genitour actually is a great choice for anti archer damage for teutons due to the faster movement speed making up for lacking bracer (not by much, but every little bit helps)
a big difference with cav archers is that it is much harder to avoid the fight against genitours than against skirms
thats the biggest i think
@@jakab174 yea. mobility makes a huge difference, at least at higher level play. chosing engagements is big
Id actually say thats even more important with xbow than with ca.
CA outruns both genitour and skirm. It cant run circles around genitours, but it can flee and strike again at a different place.
However, xbow can run from skirms, making even a small group of xbow a real nuissance to clear up with skirms because you will have to chase over half the map. Genitours on the other hand can just clear them up instantly.
@@CG-eh6oe good point
i had a game against spain, conquistadors would have been much harder to counter if i dont have these units. They just cant hit and run
If you have the Vietnamese and the Berbers as teammates, you should get the legendary "Imperial Genitour". Does it make sense historically? Who cares, sounds like a fun addition!
😂😂😂👍
And if you're allied with an elephant civ, you should get the imperial elephant skirmisher
@@afz902k 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
10:52 elite skirmisher with blood lines wow what a unit
they breed just the finest of skirmishers
111111
I don't like where this is going... eugenics in AoE2?
It's coming in the new DLC the Whittakers
well bred skirmishers do matter
The civ that would benefit the most of the Genitour has to be the Turks, right? They go from having non-Elite Skirmishers to fully upgraded Genitours with yet another 20 HP from the unique tech. There's even additional synergies like preferring fast imperial strategies where the Genitour seems to arguably outshine the Skirmisher anyway and being a gun powder civ that should be able to easily handle Pikes and Helbardiers. Seems like a match made in heaven!
Can Turks get imp skirm with Vietnamese ally?
@@battleforevermore No
There's the question, why would you use skirm like units in a teamgame
@@StraightEdgeNexus elite genitours with extra 20hp is quite tanky af
@@StraightEdgeNexus "Why skirms in a team game?" Because the gold is running low. Maybe your trade got disrupted. Maybe you quickly need to build up mass. Have you never encountered trash battles in late-game team games?
A Turk player likely already has the infrastructure to mass genitours, because they tend to build cav archers. The typical Turks units are Cav Archers, Janissary and Bombard Cannons (and Camels), all very gold intensive. They do get the Hussar for free (and are likely to already have researched blood lines and husbandry), but that is all the trash they can count on. So adding the genitour as a way to supplement your forces when gold runs low is a godsend. Especially if they are used to pad your cav archer force to fight through slow trickling trade as a way to keep up numbers.
I miss the intro :( I am really happy every time i see it
same :(
@@darkmx0z let's make the intro come back!!
@@cfv7461 Im with you
Wasn't it in the previous video? Or maybe two videos ago
@@WikiHL it was, is like a mirage appearing some times and others not
I think one of the most important situations wasn't addressed. The chase down. Early castle if your opponent comes across to your base with crossbows and you show up with several gen, they arent escaping. No chance to run back to base safely.
I really wish more civs had constant access to genitour. It could be like the step lancer or ele archer where a small handful have them in their tech tree.
The Spanish, Portugese and Berbers should have them as they are based on the Iberian light cavalry units called Jinetes
I think Turks would be an excellent civ to be given access to the genitour! We need more regional-unique units
agree some other civs should get the genitour, as it stands the camel archer (along with cheaper cavalry) fillls such a big hole that we rarely see genitours , because they're almost unnecessary, whereas if other civs (that lacked the counters that berbers have access to) had access to genitours, we would actually see them used
Yeah Genitours should have been a regional unit instead, give Berbers new team bonus. Probably Kasbah effect can be turned into team bonus but obviously with lower percentages, then as new UT you can get something that specifically affects the Genitours or both Genitours and Camel Archers
@@CrnaStrela You could make it a regional unit, and still let the Berbers have the same team bonus.
Alternatively, you could give an additional bonus for civs that already have the unit. For example:
Team Bonus: Genitors are available at the Archery Range. For teammates that already had access to Genitors, they gain +50% build speed.
I think I'll try to change into genitour because you can flee when the battle seems losing. Also, it's faster to reach hill to get hill bonus.
Another worthwhile consideration might be not whether they win in a counter matchup, but how fast they can win it. Particularly in the castle age tests, skirmishers seemed to be clearing out a lot of their targets way faster than the genitour did, which could be relevant if you're bringing them to protect other units.
Definitely interesting. Both have merits.
This is very enlightening. As a modder, I like to make imperial skirmishers and genitours into regular parts of the tech tree, and the balance has always been quite a challenge for me. Thanks for clearing that up!
One of the things that would have been helpful to include was their effectiveness against Mangudai.
Look at the test against heavy cavalry archer. Mangudai are similar, taking more damage and dealing more damage.
@@lagg1e I guess you might be right, but the fast fire rate of the mangudai and that 1 extra attack can make a HUGE difference, just like the Lithuanians' tower shields on skirms makes them WAY stronger than normal ones vs cav archers or even arbalests.
I can't imagine the amount of work that goes into these videos, kudos!
Ah yes~ The classic team up of 1182 where the Berbers and Vietnamese helped the Aztecs fight back against the Lazer Raptors during the third Viking Age
Always a good day when Spirit uploads
Always informative. Thanks. I like the dramatic zoom to "go in deeper" at 1:50. :)
Ahhh there it is, the video I suggested / requestedand and was looking forward, too.
Thanks for the long and well made explanation and again for covering this topic SotL. ;)
It doesn't make sense to me that Genitors take anti- cavalry bonus damage, but don't get any benefit from Parthian tactics. They're either cavalry archers or they aren't. Needs to be consistent.
Doesn't make any sense but it's probably a balancing issue
@@MidwestBoom They almost never get used so it should be fine to try out...
yeah they should benefit from Parthian tactics, same as Arambai.
Brilliant video. As always. Loving these deeps dives!
Thanks!
That definitly changed my view of the genitours
I prefer Genitor in case enemy mass Mango or have a lot of Knight. They also very good when raiding because I can send them stand directly under enemy TC then start attacking villager around with other units
There's an intangible happiness in getting to use a unit which is not normally available.
Very well done video! I love to see the comparison with imperial skirms too
So in the case of camel archers I think you forgot to mention one thing, genitour has 3s reload time which is fixed and cannot be improved anymore while Camel Archers have 2s reload time and can be further brought down to 1.64s reload time, that's almost twice as fast as Genitour reload on top of higher base damage basically makes them much better against cav archers. So in a situation where you are able train camel archers and when you know your opponents are going for cav archers, there's little reason to go for Genitours especially if the opponent also throw halbs as meatshield.
Nice to see not all of SOTL's videos are sneaking in ads.
Spirit, never worry about longer videos, I'd watch a whole hour of video with your soothing voice
"Short end of the javelin"
-Spirit of the Law, 2022
That zoom on "to go a bit deeper" killed me
The reasons why I love your videos is that I love AoE 2 DE and I love Maths and statistics. Never stop these videos, please!
If you make the 2nd part of this video, please include all possible cav archer bonuses that whether they apply to them or not. It was a bit dissappointing that Parthian tactics doesn't affect them and I'd like to know which upgrades do.
I havn't played aoe2 in so long but I watch your videos as soon as they come out every time because they're always amazing. Keep up the great work my friend, and be well.
That's a fine video, great job
9:48 it should add up to +4 vs cav archers in imperial, since CA recieve damage from both archer and cav archer armor classes, the elite genitour has a +1 base +3 bonus damage vs CA adding up to +4
Didn't expect Doremy pfp here
@@elephantt2077 Touhou fans playing AoE2, let's gooooooo!
Does the Dravidian +25% attack speed affect Genitours as well? If so, it would be among the best in terms of countering archers.
We'll find out next video.
yes but dravidians dont get husbandry or bloodlines though
I'm more curious about the increased counter damage Gujara mounted units get
@@Jallorn 200 IQ play, but not sure if the bonus damage is enough to compensate for missing armour
@@spaak3465 Fair, it just feels like a fun combo
Oh i remeber now being so confused by the first genetour in the older game, like a miltia throwing spears with a cav archer portrait. I did not know what it was supposed to be back then
Yeah, that blew my mind actually. Totally forgot about them until he showed it.
I was getting anxious about whether you would mention Vietnamese Imperial Skirmishers!
Or Vietnamese Genitours with +20% HP. ;)
I have bene playing the berbers the last 2 weeks and this video is exactly what my brain wanted, what timing.
Genitours can more easily avoid dangerous fights, or dodge mangonel shots.
Also, if you happen to have shitty skirms, genitours would be a very welcome addition. I'm also thinking about cavalry civs running into a bunch of archers, for whom the genitour will not be as big of a speed hindrance.
Please don't worry that these Videos go on for too long, We love them like this. Also pls take a look at Condottieri and which ones become the best with Civ Bonuses
Hey Spirit of the Law👋i have never commented on one of your videos before despite watching many of them but i just wanted to let you know that i enjoy your videos a lot. I dont even play the game i just play the old aoe2 game from time to time offline but your videos are so entertaining and your calm voice makes them so realxing to watch :) keep up the good work brother
Something very important which should have been mentioned in the video as to why skirms are generally favored over genitours is that skirms can be massed beginning in feudal. Genitours will perform better in most cases, but is it better to have 10 skirms or 1 genitour in early Castle?
What about surviving siege? Aren't skirmisher dying instantly from a mangonel?
Yay new video!
I feel now that SOTL has covered every possible question any one can have about AOE. Just amazing !
Aha so I was using them right! They are really appealing now after the patch, especially in imperial age but also in early castle I think! You can switch to genitours with just the blacksmith upgrades (and as Berbers you should already have the cavalry techs) without having to invest also in elite skirmishers
I had subtitles turned on from another video I was watching and I'm dying to learn more about these "janitor sieves" you speak of
And who could forget the ELITE JANITORS!?!? Iconic
#14:00 I've waited the whole video for this. :')
Always liked Genitours. Don't think I ever used them much.
Thanks!
I want a swiss Nation which has the third spearman upgrade as a team bonus. Like calling it the swiss guard or imperial Halbedier.
It says at 11:41 that the skirms are doing 12 damage while genitours are doing 9.. isn't it wrong? Each shot of the genitour seems to be giving more damage, maybe the elite bonus
No it's not elite bonuses, I believe SOTL did made a mistake here, Skirms only deal 1 damage against FU cav archers so majority of their dmg are from bonus dmg which are 4 against archers + 2 against mounted archers for total 7 + 1 = 8 dmg, while Elite Genitours have 1 more attack which reduced by FU CA would resulted in 2 dmg + 5 against archers + 2 against mounted archers for total of 9 dmg. For Skirms to deal 12 dmg to cav archers, they need to be missing parthian tactics and ring archer armor which shouldn't be applicable in the discussion about Japanese FU CA who has both.
i would have liked to see the camel archer vs the elephant archer too
the good thing about genitours is that they have pretty much the same upgrades as skirms. If you are also making knights it's always better to switch to genitour late game for more tankyness and speed.
Love the Deep dive, dont worry about the lenthg of the video
Not sure how Skirmishers can be considered a "Counter" to Spear units but the Genitour isn't. Sure they "tank" damage better but their slower speed and minimum range means that Halbs will get into their face before the Skirmisher can do decent damage. At least the Genitour can run away and maybe slowly whittle them down.
You don't have to micro with skirms, you have to micro with genitours
The Skirmisher has +3 bonus damage against the Spear line, so they actually do a fair amount of damage. The Genitour has a +2 and can kite spearmen forever, but that requires a large bit of micro
You can't micro your units continuously. It takes just 3 hits from a Halb to take down Genitours. Even with micro, you'll have to stop to fire back at some point (and they fire slowly i.e. they're not Mangudais). Better hope you have the whole map free to maneuver.
You guys are missing the point, he is saying you can just choose not to take that fight with the genitours, which isn't always an option with skirms.
And at the beginning of the video, he killed some Spearman without damage with the genitours, but they're not counter?
So, if you're mostly focusing on knights/cav archers, Genitours to add some more versatility/tankieness. If you're building archers, skirmishers, for the same reasons (but won't outrun their allies so easily).
4:40 nice reference to the original "counter chart" that came with the game
Genitour in general games is good to make when you have access to the unit. Franks get somewhere in between as they don't get bloodlines but get their bonus. It would be nice for the franks to get +24 hp for bloodlines if researched using the scenario editor...
In the next video, I would be very amused to see the comparison for the turks non-elite skirm vs one of the best elite genitours.
Its probably always a matter of civ bonuses and synergies.
After playing the game a while i came back to say one thing, genitours are so good for china as i'd been struggling with how skirmishers range is longer than chinese chu ko nu and skirms end up standing behind and while the expensive important unit dies.
Elite genitours woll completely fix this problem, as they both have same range but the genitours speed woll allow them to path back in front always and tanking, while chu ko nu will also fix the "spearman line" problem for elite genitours. Such a beautiful nstural combination it is.
These two units + konnik are mine favorite in the game😁
You can give Britons quite a headache if you manage to mass both, Skirms and Genitours, But requires you to micro them behind your skirms if they do pikes as counter.
Sipahi Genitours can feel tempting to go into as Turks turning a weakness into a strength
I would love if you brought back the intro
I genuinely do wonder if they'll ever consider giving this unit to the Iberians instead, as it was used by them in the Reconquista due to their lack of cavalry archers, which the Moors did not lack. Though, I doubt it. Either way, very underrated unit, love using it.
I wish you'd included the scout line in your tests
Hey SOTL! I've been debating with myself if using Scorpions are better than using Elephant Archers as Gurjara's, both seem to do really well vs Pikemen!
The Elephant takes extra bonus damage from Pikes, so they both take roughly the same amount of hits to kill! They are also both very slow units!
It would be interesting to see a video compairing the two in different situations and scenarios!
i click up vote before watch. bec of i know always good video
Countering AI Genitours is the worst. The way they can micro them perfectly 1 by 1 and counter archers make them challenging to deal with. Best I got is light cav.
Correction: At 10:56 should be "Elite Genitours with bloodlines"
The main advantage of Genitours is that they can pick their fights. Skirms lose to cavalry and other infantry(militia and UU lines), while Genitours have the option to simply run away from infantry and cavalry. This also allows them to kite certain units that they would otherwise not counter.
All in all, civs that give extra units as a team bonus are one of the best types of bonuses.
When comparing them to camel archers you have to consider that usually army comps have some kind of melee frontline to soak the damage, and the archers in the back are to attack and don't take many hits, so camel archers are way better in most cases.
yeeeees i will digest this information I will never realistically use with goblin glee
Some civs do have Elite Skirm upgrade though.
aaah yes, the janitor sleeves (subtitles for "genitour civs", wonder if it was on purpose as those are not automatic subs)
Sicilian Genitours should be really good against their regular counter units, specially against the pike-line. Unfortunately they don't have thumbring nor the last armor upgrade.
Please make a video about the caravanserai.
As a Turk player I can 100% confirm that i prefer the genitours over the skirms
How is it possible that there are more comments than the minutes since the upload?
We want the Next video 🤩 let's go dravidian genitour
I still have a copy of AOC where the Genitour in the scenario editor has the militia skin 😂
Genitour should be equivalent to tank killer in medival times, where mongol cav archers where simply overpowered. The counter to guy on horse shooting at you is that you get on a horse and thirw a soear at him.
Ok bois so we need an anti-archer unit, any ideas?
Half bois: SKIRMISHER
Other half bois: GENITOUR
That one Goth dude: Huskarl and Onager ftw
Khmer: Scorp Eles are best!
And yet, the genitour are extremely rarely seen in pro games. Mainly because reasons like you can’t mass them before going to castle age, they get bodied by in late imp wars by halbs and other counters, and also serves pretty bad in double unit compositions.
Don’t think you’ll manage to convince any pros to use em but I really hope so since they’re a cool underused unit.
I love to combine both Genitour and Camel Archer together went fight against many Archers unit. Especially tag team with Vietnamese and Britons
Genitours seem like the better option in team games more mobile probably gonna pick up bloodlines for knights and better in early castle and post imp.
Genitours can also run away from light cav, knights, and mangonels (the typical counters to skirms) waaaay easier
You can chase down and kill xbows with genitours that you cannot do with skirms and skrims lose to a few knights mixed in. Genitours can run away
10:55 I'd love to meet an elite skirmisher with bloodlines
10:50 the elite skirmished with bloodlines
9:55 +4 vs cavalry archers actually, +1 base attack, +1 vs all archers, +2 vs mounted archers
I feel like in the fight against pikes, you kind of have to consider the min range. Because the pikeman moves faster than the skirm, once inside min range, at least in a 1v1, the skirm can't really escape. The Genitour on the other hand can outrun the pike. Obviously the pike will still shred the genitour, but the fact that it's more capable of escaping means the matchup might not be quite as bad in reality.
I think you didnt do the genitour justice by focusing mainly on the combat stats, speed is such an important thing exspecially for counter units (since they need to reach the unit they counter to be effective).
There was literally a section about kiting pikes. And he went over the speed aspect in general. I mean, at that point, connect the dots, you know? It's a given that they can chase foot soldiers and run away from them if need be.
Plus, I'll say this on every SotL video: he's a raw numbers and theory channel. Practical application isn't his focus. Go watch a pro if you want that.
@@curlywhites Well its the main difference between the two units, its literally what distinguishes one from the other. So its at least a bit weird to only look shortly at example and then go on as if speed didnt exist.
Its funny how you want viewers to "connect the dots" when it comes to more advanced stuff but dont expect them to do the same with the (much simpler) combat.
And your last part is pretty hilarious because speed is also just a number...
@@CG-eh6oe it's funny because he went over the speed aspect. But he's not going to sit here and be like "well, a xbow moves at 0.8 tiles a second and a genitour moves at 1.5 tiles a second so they can catch up to them every half a second plus the attack speed, and then you gotta figure in if they're microing and if you have ballistics, are they blah blah blah".
Those aren't raw numbers and theory. You're starting to get into strategy and every nuance that comes with it. It's obvious the genitour has speed over all other foot soldiers, hence why he did go over it. But that wasn't his focus. How many videos have you watch of his? He's all about theorycrafting and math. He doesn't make videos to tell you the meta or best practice. He's just there to give you some under-the-hood information and what ifs.
Genitour should have been a regional unit for the Iberian civs from the start.. Genitour of Jinetes were berber influenced mobile skirmishers deployed by spain, portugal and the moors/berbers as well...
Glad they got buffed
the real question is mostly: when is it worth it to switch from skirm to genitour? or: upgrade skirms to elite or just switch?
thx
How much would the results have changed if you accounted for the Bloodlines cost when balancing large groups?
oh wow