Why Do We Need Belt Testing? - Kama Vlog
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- čas přidán 15. 02. 2018
- After talking to other schools, we re-examine why belt testing exists.
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Paying for a belt test is BS. It should be factored in the monthly tuition already.
That really depends on their business model. My gym keeps monthly tuition low by comparison to other gyms, almost $30/ month cheaper. However, about every six months or so we'll have a seminar, usually with one of the heads of our school and have a belt test for those who are ready. They'll charge about $50 for this. That's $100 a year for seminars/belt test, but save $360 each year in tuition over schools who might include belt testing (most likely not).
I agree. Even back when I did karate, the only belt test we had to pay for was when we went to test for our black belt.
Solution: stay as a white belt your entire life.
You won't pay any fees and your skill increase. Do you really need external validation if you can submit black belts on the regular after 10 years training as a white belt?
Very good point. Why do people care so much about belts? Furthermore, imagine the success you'd have in tournaments. It might reflect badly on your professor (as if he/she was holding you back to smash other white belts in tournament).
@@barnabykent6698 I guess that’s a reflection on you then haha. People could say that’s terrible go challenge yourself in the correct division.
Belts aren’t too important however it’s important to see progression (check points). Especially those people who are targeted oriented in their day to day lives.
But no belts itself doesn’t really matter it’s more so the meaning behind it IMO.
$250 to do testing... no wonder people think the martial arts are a joke, even bjj is becoming water down commercialised bs. Im glad my gym doesn't do this.
i'm realizing one can look at positives and negatives either way. in this case, if you get tested, you're $250 "lighter." if you don't get tested, you have no idea where you're lacking, and it's not pointed out.
sometimes, people will spend good money to take a private to learn what they know they don't know, yet they won't spend the same amount of money if it's called a "test."
hmmm...
I don't think many sane people will pay 250 for a private lesson, if the student was charged only $20 or so for testing then I don't think many would have an issue with it. To me it signals a gym that does not care about its members. Gyms should be making it cheaper for students providing more people the opportunity to train/progress. My gym actually sponsors some kids for free.
A lot of times, you get what you pay for.
damn, that sucks. i'm sorry about your school shutting down. people like jared moglia are lucky to have it so good that their instructor teaches them for free (of cheap). funny how he believes that a gym needs to be cheap to "care about its members. Gyms should be making it cheaper for students..."
we can all judge until we're in those person's shoes.
he needs to try operating a studio...
any martial art academy at the end of the day is still a business; therefore, they need to pay their bills.. it costs them (academy owners) money to operate.
bruce lee and mr. miyagi said that belts are only for holding your pants up
Actually that's the attitude that the original Okinawan karate masters had as well. The modern belt system was first documented with the creation of modern judo.
At my school you only test when the instructor says your eligable.
My Kenpo school had similar but different issues. When we actively work on kicking, punching, clinching, throwing, grappling, knife fighting, swords, sticks, etc... where do you draw the line? We would have formal tests that would require the student to move through the written curriculum, and then we would have them demonstrate the 'ancillary' pieces that they had put more time into.
So at one of the black belt tests, the student did every piece of material (We stopped formal material at black), and then the student showed some nunchanku work, some stick fighting work, fancier kicks (jumping spinning acrobatic type things), some judo throws, and board breaking. These were things on top of the written material that they had put time and effort into improving to make themselves unique and better.
I am not exactly sure how you would translate that to bjj, but if you say had a white belt that knew the entire curriculum to be a blue belt, you could have the test set up to have like, well show me 3 more submissions that were not in your test yet, or show me every escape you can think of from bottom of north south. You can have the student explicitly demonstrate abilities beyond the written system for display and improvement overall. And if they couldn't, then that is where more subjective pass/fail comes in.
If you came to one of our black belt tests and just did the curriculum a-z, but couldn't show any other skills, you will fail terribly.
My BJJ school promotes people without formal paid testing. But they've got a repeating 16-week curriculum and once students have attended enough classes on the appropriate days, they get promoted. Mind you, we have AT LEAST 10 minutes of live-training at the end of every class (and some weekends is 30-45 minutes of rolling) to make sure that we pressure test all of the moves that we're taught during class. So our ability to apply our skills is constantly being evaluated.
we don't have formal testing but our professor comes down and he personally approve and promote
I have a black belt in Judo and I'm trying to figure out how to bridge the gap between the two arts, because I just started in BJJ and would like to devise a testing method so I'm asking
What are the original 36 lessons to blue
Interesting. I see how growth will force this topic.
I test.... and I hv had ppl fail... everyone's game will differ, but I test on techniques based not on physical attributes but what's needed for each rank. Now you can learn any techniques you want, but you need to hv a solid and sound demonstration of the technical prowess of that particular level...
Testing is just a money making scheme.. just by watching your students day to day you should know if they deserve promotion
Caveat: I'm at a relatively small gym, and I get to roll with my head instructor after at least 50% of the classes I attend --- This without question colors my perception.
That out of the way, a paid belt test is basically the teacher saying that they have trained you well enough that they are now going to charge you to print a certificate and allow you to purchase a different color belt. That is where the problem arises, it's not that it's not legit to do so, it may even be appropriate as you discussed in the video, but that doesn't change the fact that it creates perverse incentives that tend towards exploitation.
In BJJ this is both better and worse than in other Martial Arts. Better because we don't have as many belts, and they don't come as often (unless you do stripe tests and charge for them, in which case I have better places to be), but on the other hand we have also paid our monthly dues for a long time before the first test normally rolls around. This leads me to argue that any necessary test fees should be rolled into the monthly fee --- i.e. training is slightly more expensive, but it keeps the focus on consistency as a core value of BJJ training. We already pay for gear, privates, seminars, tournaments etc. etc. etc.
Personally, paying extra for belt tests irks me. I put up with it in my other martial art, mostly because it seems to be a metric that reflects well on my teachers with the main dojo so I put up with it for them, not for me --- because I like the guys at my local, rural backwater dojo. In BJJ getting a belt or stripes comes with more responsibility than reward, and I'd happily push that farther down the line. And if my coach was crazy enough to have an up or out policy I would look for a new gym. I should probably add that a structured curriculum is the first step in really enabling testing, but at the same time if you chunk that curriculum to maximize the number of tests (not too likely in BJJ) you are being deliberately exploitative.
If I had to pay for a belt test I would not test. I did it once will never do it again.
It helps to support your school, as there’s a good chance your school also charges a relative low tuition.
With that said, we don’t have belt tests in place here (yet?).
Taking your public school example, if a high school has 2000 students in four grades, the principal is not administering exams to all of the students. For each subject there are a number of teachers teaching from a common curriculum, and each has a fewer number to evaluate. When I was in college, there were six professors teaching 8 lectures of Differential Equations, each with 120-160 students, but they all used the same mid-term and final exams which they wrote together, and were administered and graded by teaching assistants (who were grad students in the PhD program). So if after you have clubbed together with your other black belt partners to run the school together (or are a sole proprietor) and you grow to the point that you cannot evaluate each student, then maybe it is time to get some "teaching assistants" (brown belts?) to evaluate the lower level "underclassmen" to your set criteria (for example promoting white to blue), while the "professors" evaluate the upper level students (using "professor" in the university sense, not the BJJ sense).
Hey Ryan. I don't have a clue how promotions work in my school's parent organization.
However, I'm neutral about belt testing right now though I agree with you that ensuring students of similar rank can perform the same skills is crucial to spreading jiu jitsu. I think testing may in fact help with that and can alleviate confusion for students.
For example, I'm at 3 stripes on my white and have watched other students get their 4th even though we have about the same time in training and I'm as skilled if not more so than at least one of those guys. Very confusing and frustrating since I'm not sure what I'm lacking.
For CTC's Rener or Ryron test you personally for purple or higher.
I'm not from BJJ, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Ensuring a constant standard consistency across ranks is a real problem as an organisation grow. Other organisations quality have suffered as they have grown.
The only things that I can suggest is a grading day, as you said.
Or progressive evaluation, where the student must show a particular technique plus all preceding techniques for a rank. That way at least it is known that they can perform all required skills to the end. But that still requires people to evaluate students. So then it becomes a human resource issue.
Time is no indicator either because people learn at different speeds and have different levels of dedication. My only suggestion in that case is to have a minimum time for each rank.
Then there is the problem of trying to focus people on the Martial Art and not on the pursuit of rank.
Sorry I can't of more use. Hope this helps.
It does, thank you.
Hello Professor, thank you for your videos. I enjoy your channel very much though I don't necessarily agree with everything you say all the time. Please allow me to give you my humble blue belt opinion. I completely disagree with charging students for a "belt test". I strongly believe that students are tested every single day they are on the mats. Whether it is drilling or rolling, or even at tournaments. The test is the student's overall dedication and progression. Every student is already paying money to train, why should they be charged an additional amount in order to get promoted if they have clearly worked hard and earned it? What happens if they are having an off day and don't pass the test? Should they have to pay again? What if they can't afford it? Would they be at a certain level indefinitely for financial reasons? I trained with many friends who could barely afford the monthly fees but did it anyway for the love of Jiu Jitsu. Also, to address the "I'm not usually teaching on Fridays so I'm gonna charge you for my time" questions, I say thats BS. You are the school owner or head instructor per your choice, your students are your responsibility. Lastly, schools that charge for belt test tests run the risk of eventually having their students simply buy a belt I.E. what happens in Karate/TKD schools all over the country. Anyway, keep making your videos and allowing us to have discussions over the art we all love. Oss
White belt no stripe here. Been doing BJJ for about 14 months. Don’t really care a whole lot about no stripe, but I do know I’m getting better.
I’ve always loved that my worn, broken in belts stay tied better and longer. When I close my eyes, I can’t see what color belt I grabbed, either.
I am really surprised at some of the negative comments here. He explains in some detail why belt testing may become necessary as a school grow larger, and why charging for it makes sense. Yet, some people are calling "BS" and "nonsense." Frankly, I wonder if they actually listened to the video, or just reacted to the title...
Great point.
Do these schools ever have the zero stripe whitebelt for life? Love training, love classes, zero interest testing.
There’s got to be some.
Stripes and belts are great, but no way would I be at an academy that requires that I pay for a belt test. If my professor/instructor cannot see my skills that means they are not up to par or he doesn't know me very well because he isn't there enough. Either way I'd change academy's. Just my personal belief but to each their own.
To regulate belts with large testing fees and stupid long wait times (years) is a McDojo just taking money. I believe it should be individually done, if a guy is ready for blue in 5 months, promote him. To say oh you have not done bjj for X number of years so your not worthy of purple or brown or black is wrong if they truly know the skill sets. JMHO, God bless
250 DOLLARS?! For me, belt testing belongs to learning Jiu-Jitsu so it should be included. And in my book, for a belt to be proper, there needs to be a curriculum for it. Otherwise, the only proof that you've earned it is to trust the professor that he does it properly. Having that on paper is really important to me.
Hey Ryan, any update on this? Did you guys end up introducing testing? Curious 🧐
We do for our online members.
I really don't understand the idea that all students must know/do the same stuff. I think schools should embrace students picking up different approaches to jiu jitsu.
Find a school that does, and you’re golden.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu Luckily I have
"it's not the fighter who knows 10,000 punches i'm afraid of. i'm afraid of the fighter whose practiced one punch 10,000 times." ~ i don't know who said this (was it Bruce Lee?), but follow this line of thought and you will be unbeatable.
truth.
as soon as you start talking about you dont want people learning from other places and you want them to do it your way only you need to check your ego. and think about how bjj as we know it today came about, it wasnt by not learning
you're not getting my point.
but that's ok.
keep doing what you're doing!
I won't comment on whether you should test or not. But charging $250 for testing is ridiculous. I would refuse to pay that and move to a different school. That is so much money over a few belts and you cannot expect people to be willing and or able to afford that cost.
That’s why I’ve always had a problem with it historically. If you have another way to ensure uniformity, I’m all ears.
For regular belt testing, absolutely it is cheesy to charge for belt testing. At most someone may pay for the physical belt (and get a nice quality belt).
In the case of a black belt instructor working with a Grandmaster to test for a higher belt level (and receive some refinements and updates), that may not be unreasonable.
So why is testing not appropriate for BJJ but perfectly appropriate for every other educational activity?
Yeah i am not saying i have a solution but charging an amount like that is just not doable for many people. Just don't charge an insane amount and it is not as bad.
Every martial art EXCEPT the old school jiu-jitsu schools charge for belts and belt testing. As time goes on, I think the school that doesn’t do so will go the way of the dinosaur.
Belts are a scam just have a 3 level system.Student, Teacher,&Master.
Grandmaster has master's students.
Belts were to keep students and make money.Take away the belt's.
All valid points.
Going with only three belts will only appeal to the most hardcore practitioners who are hardcore on day one.
Having belts is both a blessing and a curse. Blessing for those who can “transform” and become hardcore (who weren’t hardcore from day one). Curse for those who use them to extend the time someone takes to black belt beyond their abilities (timeline promotions vs achievement promotions).
There’s always good with the bad, but if there were no belt gradings, many people who do Jiu-Jitsu today would not have made it past year 1 and eliminated their chance to improve themselves and others.
Now this is full of nonsense. Jiu Jitsu worked for so long in system without testing and it has no issues... If you can't follow progress of all students, have your instructors watching and suggesting them and you can access their knowledge... If someone trains for five years and he is a blue belt, why doesn't he deserve it? He knows enough to fight successfully not trained opponent, so what's the big fuss about it? More money?
Naw, the money is not the issue. The issue is, using your example, if you have 10 different five year blue belts, their competence levels are all over the board. Goal of testing, is to make them all similarly competent.
Yep, testing is all about ensuring a minimal level of competence. Without something formal, I have to think many fall through the cracks and result in “over” ranking.
Just give the belt. Otherwise, guys like me who don’t care about belts, won’t go, but their true level will improve regardless, then you have white belts smashing your ranked guys, obviating your whole ranking system.
But what if you’re good at guard passing, mount, choke, and get those on everyone there, I give you the belt, then the next week, a wrestler comes in and ends up putting you on your back and it turns out you have no mount escape, no cross side escape, and no choke defense? It was never tested because you’d overpower everyone else and get to top game all the time, but when you’re overpowered for once, turns out you have absolutely no defense?
Kama Jiu-Jitsu that’s a good point. Maybe just test for certain belts, like brown and black? Blue, I mean, after a while, if you go, train, you are gonna get your basic 60 or so techniques just by virtue of doing them all the time. My theory, anyway, I’m still a white belt (2 years). As it stands now, if I were offered a test, I would probably decline simply because I’ve grown into being a white belt that can terrorize many of the blue belts. It’s just a weird kind of fun for me.
That rationale is like an elementary school kid refusing to take his final exams so he can enter middle school because he wants to be the “bull” in elementary school.
If that’s your personality... I guess there are elementary schools here and there with 18yr old 5th graders...
Kama Jiu-Jitsu ah, no, I was just saying some people don’t care about belts, not that I wanted to be a ‘bull’ in an elementary school. The fact is, that belt is not going to help me one bit when I go against the better guys in my school. But, it s your school, and your channel, so, do whatever you want. Goodbye.
it's good that you don't care about the belt. you're definitely one of the few. keep it up! maybe you'll go from white to black!
F+ !!
F-
Z-
The last thing I would want is for a student to be charged extra for belt testing to see if he knows the technical aspects of a technique but not having mastered it. So he pays a mint in monthly dues and a mint in hourly belt testing evaluation just to get his ass handed to him at a mall parking lot by some punk with decent high school wrestling and backyard mma. I think an instructor should have belt testing for lower ranks, yes. But once the student reaches a purple or above then he must be observed for MASTERY of technique not just technical knowledge thereof.