G10 vs Ultrabase Build Plate | My FAVORITE 3D Printing Surface
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- čas přidán 29. 09. 2021
- @MakersMuse wasn't lying when he said this was the best print surface. I have been blown away with how easy it makes 3D printing.
/ jjshankles
This 3D printer on Amazon: amzn.to/3zNVppC
An option on US Amazon: amzn.to/3ljA9E3
This surface sounded too good to be true: prints stick well, release well, have a glassy finish, and all for a cheap price! I am pleased to say I agree with all these statements about G10 (Garolite). The brand name for G10 is Garolite, and the Fire Resistant version is FR4. I had been having trouble printing PETG until now:
Where I found mine in the US:
popsknife.supplies/collection...
Some other options:
au.banggood.com/custlink/v33Y...
Ebay has some good ones, just search for G10 or FR4 sheets
An Amazon US option: amzn.to/3ljA9E3
I don't have any Flexible Filaments around, and I don't print ABS, so I can't comment on their ability to print those. But I have been able to print PETG with the confidence of PLA. I also only clean the sheet with IPA between prints, and I don't use any gluestick. The pictures in the video speak for them selves for how well things stick.
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The fibers from cutting garolite is pretty dangerous to breath in. We cut it all the time in the machine shop but use a special lubricant in the CNC that "contains" the fibers. It's probably best to keep a steady flow of water on it while cutting to keep the fibers from getting airborne. A fine particle respirator is a must. Those fibers cut you up pretty bad if they get in your lungs and they stick around for a long time.
That's good to know from someone who uses it often. I'll pin this comment so people see this. What do you use to cut it? The utility knife I used didn't seem to make much dust when outside.
@@JJShankles A sharp utility knife is probably a great option to keep the fibers at a minimum. I see a lot of people cutting it with a reciprocating saw with a metal cutting blade (fine tooth). That is where a respirator is required. We cut it on a 3-axis Hurco CNC using a 1/4" end mill. Even with the doors closed on the CNC the fibers were an issue until we switched lubricants to better contain them. Some people that are exposed to the fibers for long periods can also develop an allergic reaction (skin breakout) when coming into contact with it. The same thing happens with standard fiber glass applicators.
@@JJShankles Bit of scare tactics. You're getting way worse things from your 3d printer. The amount of dust from minimally trimming a single sheet is a non-threat. You'd need to be trimming 20+ sheets before it started reaching levels that cause issues and even then like turn on a fan or wear a mask
@@Repect4 Your're doing just the same by saying something vague and unsubstantiated as "you're getting way more things from your 3D printer". Yes, you can get things like headaches, fatigue, and drowsiness from some of the fumes that are realsed when melting plastics. No longterm or chronic health problems however...No one is wearing a respirator at a profesional plastic parts factory, I've vistend many in Europe and China. The worst fumes com form PVC, LD-PE, Flame retardants and exotics...practicly no one uses those on a FDM printer. If there is "way worse things" please enlighten me.
@@HobbyWoppy styrene
Hehe cool, glad it worked as well for you as it did for me! Definitely an underrated surface.
Still waiting for my g10, as a fellow aussie I used the site you linked in the dooblidoo, mostly sold out possibly from your promotion, heh. I hope they didnt oversell mine and it arrives in the mail soon.
@@6AxisSage I C&C'd a couple of sheets from Artisan supplies Auburn on Thursday, the colour MM used was sold out, as were a lot of colours. I'm glad I watched this first for the tip about the glue holding the glass plate down.
I couldn't print ABS on it, PLA went really smooth but I sure didn't stick as much as shown in the videos. I'll try getting another sheet from different manufacturers
@@lucaszanvettor9065 you can try bumping up the temps and lower speed, low speed helps alot :)
Tronxy xy-2 pro comes with a G10 surface from the factory 😉
FR4 is the way to go. The finish is superb. FR4 is fireproof. Adhesion is exceptional. Release is as simple as letting the bed cool. I use 1/16" or 1.5 mm with 1 oz. copper on one side. Copper helps the heat transfer. FR4 and PETG are a marriage made in heaven.
I've just ordered an FR4 board as I only just got a PETG print off my glass bed and cracked the print. I really hope this works like everyone is saying.
Thanks for your testing and video. it works great!
Finally I might solve my issues with getting PETG to stick! My glass plate gives me fits even with tons of stick glue I have issues. I don't like using blue painters tape either as I have to put stick glue on it too. Going to order 2 of these and hope it's as good as you guys say it is. Thanks!
Got a thin one to try on my Prusa. It has to work with the inductive sensors. FR4 or FR5 with single sided copper should be great to spread the heat and it would have more heat resistance than g10.
you could follow the prusa tutorial for the pei sheet changing, to change the pei to garolitr. i plan to do that in the future. 1 side PEI, one side g10 or fr4
@@josiahong5177 didn't know they had one. Will look it up.
Well done, yes more tutorials! Thanks
More to come!
@@JJShankles !!
nice, keen to see how you go with Klipper on the Mega S
Thanks for the Video JJ got me started on my first garolite xx sheet for under 20 bones lols thx!
I have been using PEI sheet similar properties to G10 and it's like your teal blue colour
Added generic G10 from Amazon, 3m sheet advisive, and spring steel base for magnetic adhesion to heated bed. I am blown away by print 1st layer adhesion and release after cool down. Print 99 percent Petg. Just do it!
Are you saying you put a magnetic sheet on the G10 as well as the PEI sheet to stick them together? So the G10 sticks to the bed magnetically?
@@plugger410I did the same thing as this guy, and no. The g10 isn't attached to the pei. It is a thin sheet glued to a spring steel sheet. It then attaches in place of the pei sheet, not on top. It just magnetically sticks like the original.
Got mine from McMaster Carr. 1/16" 12x12 for $20 with shipping.
I cut mine the same way you did.
After many passes with a razor, I switched to my Japanese pull saw.
However, I must have had oils from my fingers on the surface. My print pulled loose from the plate. Good thing it it flexes because I put glue stick on it and it stuck too good!
When I stick my glass platform in the fridge or freezer, my PLA parts always shrink and loosen from the glass. They "pop" off if you take the platform into the cold weather outside and watch it.
I use water to clean my glass bed, when I use IPA petg doesnt stick anymore till I clean whatever leftover with water (I do that water thing at 80°C bed temp and with papertowel), I still got a g10 plate since that glass bed is really heavy and there is no point in having a litght extruder when your other axis is ringing like 3 times as much
Excellent!
How do the inductive automatic leveling sensors work on these g10 plates? Greetings!
How flexible is the 1/32" sheet? Im thinking of getting one and gluing it to a springsteel plate so I can have it be magnetic too
g10/fr4 can be purchased (cut to size with varying thickness) from various PCB manufacturers. Its just a blank circuit board. Much cheaper than trying to purchase from a hobbyist knifemaking supplier. They charge a premium for the same product as it is a niche market.
I have the green one you have but I haven't been able to get anything to stick so easy. I'm sure it's a temperature issues...I think.
found a local place that will cut the sheets to size going to order some soon
Does your printer have an inductive probe? And if so does it work through the G10 to the aluminum bed below?
I don't use any probe on my printer. I have a 3DTouch sensor, but I think it is broken because I can't get it to turn on.
You can use it for a lot of things. Heat platens form such are not a new thing. Great stuff but you have to cut it wet with protective gear, in a well ventilated area.
I use to make a lot of micro heli upgrades, frames mainly, after I started selling my first original rc helis in kits. I use to make rc micro electric helicopter blades from it in various thickness, thin sheets, when I was selling the MIA House- FLY Palm Size Heli kits. I used a custom made CNC router with a water bed, and filter, and also a custom made oven and a bender to bend the blades as they were being heated to a given curvature and twist, then tested them for high lift, minimal current draw, similar to some of my earlier Aluminum anodized rc heli blades, and tweked and retweaked for best performance.
Interestingly NASA Langley, bough a good amount of them, who knows what they used them for, but they did put out a paper that showed their performace as compared to other RC model blades and mine were at the top.
They also bough a couple of my early helis the MIA Robin 280 which I started selling with anodized feather blades, then later switched to G10, woood and molded plastic, as BL motors were starting to surface and weight was not so much of a concern.
Interesting also, later on some people decided that my G10 and alu tail blades on the MIA House FLY and MIA Robin 280, looked like they were made from window alu blind slats, and while they were not, some people stated also making them DIY using the thiner and weaker Alu blind slats in similar way.
They were not intended to last, but as an option to injection molding or wood and they were a lot lighter, back in the day cutting weight on the RC micro heli was critical, as much as possible and I've alwas pushed myself for lighter lifting surfaces, as when you keep these light weight you pretty much increase performance, no crazy idea was discarded, this is how I started making them in light weight spring alu thin sheets, so no high mass was my target, like what we want on a 3D print head if we want fast acceleration start and stop.
I stopped making G10 parts, long time ago but I still use G10 sheets as protective table cover on y CNC hot nife cutting machine where I cut rip stop nylon wing patterns , as such, it has lasted a long time, the same sheet is on my table well over 10 years, so as a 3D print surface it should also last years.
Would be nice to have a link to click on to find where to buy it.
I think if your bed reaches temp faster, it's because the g10 is isolation the top. to make sure you schould read the top surface temp.
Do you need to remove the original glass build plate or could you just clip the G10 over top of it? May not get hot enough for PETG is my guess?
Yeah I don't know if it would get very hot, and it would probably take a lot longer if it ever did heat up. The thin sheet might actually work a lot better with that option though
Have you tried pei build plate? Also did yours deform when printing at high temperatures like maker's muse did with his?
I haven't tried a pei sheet. I was shopping around for one when I got this one, and I'm glad I waited. This sheet was way cheaper than some of the pei options I was looking at. I haven't had any deformations, but I don't print hotter than PETG since I don't have an all metal hotend yet. That will have to come in the future though
My Ultrabase has served very well for a couple years now, but a recent upside-down-scraper-bur accident means I need to replace it. I'm going to have to give this a try.
I print things like your infill example with PETG all the time. The secret of PETG (for my i3 Mega S) is a thin layer of diluted Elmer's PVA white glue on the Ultrabase, PID tuning the hot end to 230C, and a silicone sock.
I need to try a silicone sock, it is always getting dirty from filament. But with this base I don't have to mess with any added glue
@@JJShankles Yes, socks are great for reducing buildup that eventually blobs down into the print on big jobs. And they keep heating more even which, like PID tuning, seems to be important for PETG at least with the i3M.
I forgot to mention that I always dry PETG. Guides don't talk about it much, but PETG needs drying, especially the transparent and semi-transparent stuff. It often comes from the factory in need of a couple hours at 65C. Stringing, bed adhesion and overhangs all improve.
Are your plates holding up? Have you noticed any warping or wear?
hi guys, thanks for this video!!!
Based on this video, I ordered the G10/FR4 construction plate. Black and green ones, for my Elegoo Neptune 4 Pro. A gold-colored PEI plate is standard for the Neptune 4 Pro.
Believe me! bed leveling with a G10/FR4 on the Neptune 4 Pro doesn't work at all, it seems that the induction sensor cannot see these G10/FR4 plates. so this presses very hard against the G10 plates.
When I place the G10 plate on the head bed and on top of it the original PEI plate, it seems to work. bud if you remove the original PEI plate when you done leveling and only use the G10/FR4 on it its still not working the extruder will hit the G10/FR4 so hard that it will punch a hole in the G10/FR4 plate. maybe a BLtouch will help as this is a physical sensor. sorry for the bad english.
I replaced all my printer beds with FR4 back copper clad sheets. This is the equivalent I can get for the G10 sheets. The copped cladding is helpful in keeping the heat uniform. But the surface itself is very good for most of the materials. Still ABS has some problems sticking well and wraps sometimes. Otherwise, this is a goto bed surface for most of your filaments. If you need a very good adhesion for ABS and Nylon materials, try polycarbonate sheets. That's excellent but you will have to sand the surface before printing or else, your prints will stick to the sheet permanently.
That's awesome to hear, I've been thinking about if the copper option would help with spreading the heat. It would also look super cool.
Link to copper backed version?
I think he means normal circuit board plate for etching@@jonmayhewanderson3907
How did you remove the Anycubic glass plate and install the G10?
Never mind. Rewatched without kids. Heat and peel. Got it
McMaster-Carr sells a lot of g10 in a variety of thickness and size.
I use windex on textured PEI sheet and never have any problems printing PETG. Just clean with windex before every PETG print.
McMasters have them up tp 36" in various thicknessess
I need a little bigger -where can you find this? 330x330! I want this stuff!
hi JJ I want to replace the build surface with fiberglass or pei spring steel but I'm still confused about choosing the smooth or textured pei to print abs and pla. do you have any recommendations for me?
I haven't tried a pei sheet before, but I have heard people recommend the rough pei for the difficult to print materials, like abs or petg. Since the rough option will give more adhesion but with leave a textured finish. The smooth option will have you a glass like finish, but will be more difficult with abs and petg.
That is what I have gathered from looking into it.
I just use this G10 fiberglass sheet and get PETG to stick really easily though.
It’s the other way around actually, I have both sheets on my MK3S. Adhesion for PETG is nearly too strong on the smooth sheet, so the textured one is recommended and it will come off more easily. For ABS and PLA, the textured surface is a little on the weak side and the smooth sheet works perfectly. PC and TPU stick so incredibly well to the smooth sheet that it will destroy it by pulling out chunks, so it’s strongly advised to use the textured one.
Nylon won’t stick to both of them, therefore I use some gluestick and rub the surface in slightly with a damp cloth, this gives perfect results without having any PVA chunks visible on the first layer.
Apart from all that, I like the look of the textured surface much better, it gives the first layer a real quality finish imo compared to the smooth, glass-like surface.
Well it looks amazing, I definitely need that but there's just one thing I'm concerned about. I use a 4mm aluminium heatbed and an inductive sensor for abl, so if I use a 1.5mm on top of a 4mm aluminium heated bed will it still trigger the inductive sensor?
Also note that I couldn't find any G10 sold separately from local shops, the only one I could find is a circuit print board that is a fiberglass-resin with a copper sheet on one side, so can I still use inductive sensor for abl? Should I go for it?
Also I think having the copper sheet helps to spread the heat more evenly.
I've wondered if those circuit boards with the copper sheet would help with conducting heat through it as well. I'm not sure what the sensitivity of your inductive probe would be, but 1.5mm isn't too much added distance
@@JJShankles Yeah, guess I'll give it a try then. Thanks🔥
Let me know how it works out for you
@@JJShankles OK, here to update my comment. I tried printing on G10 and I don't even know what to say😅. The G10 is really really great as print surface. The parts stick well when it's hot like they are glued to it😂 and just come off when it gets cold like they weren't sticking at all😳. I can't say how surprised I am, when you were talking about how you doubted that you used pla instead of abs I thought hey that's just too good to be true😂
But after I tried myself I was shocked 😲. I usually print abs at 145 bed but with g10 I lowered the temperature until it didn't stick to bed and found out I can print the same filament in 115c bed without adhesive. And also having copper sheet does help to spread the heat but since I have a 4mm aluminium bed it didn't make that much difference for me. But note that having copper sheet on one side makes it to warp a little (since copper and G10 have different amounts of expansion in the same temperature) but if you secure it tightly to the bed with paper clips it's ok.
So yeah, I definitely recommend G10 it works great and is cheap and for me using a 1.5mm one doesn't interfere with the inductive sensor.
I'm really glad I watched this vide. Thanks🔥❤
Could you use a sheet of tin foil on top of the print surface to level your bed? I think it would be the right thickness and it might react with the probe if it reacts with an aluminum bed. Worth a try for a cheap fix.
Good video...but is the G10 straight as the glass/mirror?
The thick plate is pretty straight and probably comparable to glass, but glass will be one of the flattest print surfaces.
Would it be possible to get a flex plate, some adhesive, and the .05 sheet MM said was too thin to make a G10 Flex plate?
I wanna try this but I dont know what type of adhesive I could use for the application
I think that would be a good idea. With just the clips mine doesn't lay flat, but a magnet would hold it flat.
It should, in theory act like a pei mag bed. Thats what I have rn but I cant properly use petg or asa on it. I just need an adhesive that would apply even enough, the rest I am sure I could order easily
How is the performance with pla? I am having a heck of a time with petg fusing to the bed of my Ender 3 V2 even with painters tape. This seems like a nice upgrade 👌
PLA prints great too. With the same super smooth bottom finish.
I flipped my original bed over, use glue stick that was provided by some PLA that I had ordered. Level bed. When it ran into issues printing in the center, I checked the bed flatness and the heater bed flatness. Both dipped the middle. 2 short strips of painters tape, thick glue stick, I use a + to coat to make sure I get all exposed glass. The other side? Dawn dishsoap and water, clean it like a dish, is amazing for PLA. IPA allowed PLA to bond too well to the textured surface.
Do you soak and heat the tape? That's what I've done to release stuff 75-80c and it'll free up when wet. Redry and reuse many times 😁
@@specialingu I never thought of that so you dip it in water first then print on it wet?
@@GeorgeJFW noo you have a water spray bottle with say 10%alcohol and when the print is finished you spray around your print, and set temp higher 75-85c on bed and within a few minutes they should free up, peeling up and spraying sticky side/bed can speed it up. The tapes adhesive changes when hot so it's alot easier to wiggle and release :)
Link to copper backed version?
Hey man, I don't know if you noticed but at 1:51 you said 1/16 of an inch instead of 1/8 of an inch
i can help you get rid of that stringing in your petg, i have some really nice petg profiles
Might have to give this a try. Wondering if anyone has tried blank PCB board with this as the substrate ? the Bonded copper side facing the aluminium plate might help with heat transfer.
I thought about it, and it probably would help heat transfer, but the G10 has been holding on well for me so far.
@@JJShankles true, im prob thinking it more cause im sure i have some blank PCBs somewhere in the garage :D free build plates :D
In that case that would be a great free option
I am using the plain copper back FR4 sheets. The copper back surely improves the heating time. It also keeps the heat even across the surface. This is very useful if you are printing large parts that span across the bed.
I have a darkgreen textured one from aliexpress
I love all the color options available!
Glad I bought a sheet before prices start to shoot up
Haha so true!
ive used this with petg and after a lot of trial and error i got it to stick with super slow prints. cant get pla to stick for a complete print and have tried so many times its ridiculous. am i missing something? tried 99alcohol, dish soap, acetone, degreaser, sanded 220/180/80/40 grip. cant recommend this
Does the g10 surface warp when heated on a bed?
Mine doesn't warp at all, but the thinner sheets might
What size/thickness should I get for my ender 3? If you have a link that you suggest let me know since idk what brands are good.
This was where I bought mine: popsknife.supplies/collections/g10, and I have enjoyed the 3mm or 1/8 inch size. It was a pain to cut, but now I kind of like how thick and solid it is. I think most brands would be similar since it is sort of a raw material, but this Ultrex brand makes some fun colors.
@@JJShankles cool thanks
Amazon has G10 sheets now.
Man, I wish I could get PETG to stick to the G10. I have tried 3 different PETG brands, at various nozzle and bed temperatures (230-250 nozzle, 50-70 bed), and I get zero stick. I replaced the PETG with PLA, no changes to printer calibration, just temp adjustments in slicer...sticks perfectly every, single time.
I'd suggest you to read comments. There's a lot to learn. JJ uses 235/75C and drops it onto the G10 instead of squishing (0.2 mm z-offset)
@@TheHamster4430 I just gave up and went to PEI. Works fine across a range of nozzle and bed temps...very forgiving.
Grainier has it look up under G10.
6:10 how to cut G10
I have a bit of alchemy for you. For petg printing I get excellent bed adhesion with my creality glass bed already coated with glue stick and given a quick wipe down with 90% IPA as the bed is heating up for a print. I found the IPA reactivates the glue stick just as the print starts. Print removal requires a razor blade to slip under the print to be able to peel it off. Since I started doing this, I haven't had a single print lift off the bed for even the smallest part or pointiest angle.
Where is Ada?
It's just a shame it's basically non-existent in the UK, atleast not at a reasonable price for my P1P
what temp do you use for PETG?
I use 235C on the hotend, and 75C on the bed
@@JJShankles what about z offset. With pei I raise my nozzle up about 0.2mm so petg drops on top instead of being squished same with fr4?
Yes very similar. I'm not sure exactly what I used, but too much squish would always fail for me
@@JJShankles thanks
@@JJShankles loving fr4 so far
Got a link to that chainmail?
This was the one I printed: www.thingiverse.com/thing:3096598
@@JJShankles interesting. Looks like an uncredited version of my thing# 2839592 which is a credited mix of 881124.
@@davidwillmore His does have rounded edges of the links instead of the squared edges of yours, but I think you can report it to Thingiverse.
@@JJShankles no worries! I was just curious which one you used. If you like OpenSCAD, check out one of the other versions.
I haven't tried OpenSCAD yet, I'll have to check that out
All you need to do is score a line and snap off the piece on a flat surface like a counter. Sand the edges and done. Takes less than 5 minutes including getting the tools together. You don't want to saw this stuff. It can really fuck up your breathing bags.
My secret spell is: sugar water
“Tiffany blue”?🙄… Sure Man…. That’s Neat..Sheesh..😔
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