This Pianist Doesn't Realize He's Using Rotation! - PIANO LAB Reacts
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2024
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I’ve played piano (poorly) since childhood and just recently studied human kines and biomechanics. When I learned that rotation movement takes place primarily at the proximal radioulnar joint (essentially part of the elbow complex), it reduced a whole bunch of tension. For anyone still struggling to apply this, think of using the muscles around and just below the elbow to initiate and facilitate the movement, rather than around the wrist and hand.
I highly recommend Taubman for a good, basic (not as detailed as Sandor, for example) movement vocabulary and the teachers/curriculum to learn the moves. Technique needs to be multiple choice, but for most pianists, it's "fill in the blank".
Where can I find Taubman lessons/method?
Classical argument axis over folks who feel all is better with more relaxation, Emma Lieuman, calls it "healthy tension," and folks who sense that technical exercises which result in finger independence or strength, which I sense it has mostly to do with how famous the published studies, the popularity of the creator, are and how well thy get promoted in academic schools. "If theyre teaching this in the high halls of academia, they must be right." Denis Zhdanov refers to an "elbow genertated impulse." Use of arm weight in mediating dropping the arms onto the keys like Denis' bridge after the crane lifts, rotation and other moves which off-load tiny finger muscle work onto the much larger larger muscles of the wrist forearm, shoulder, result in less fatigue and stiffness because those muscle tendon complexes can carry larger weight loads. Coordinating all these modes is the key to a well rounded technique which sounds smooth and avoids injuries which can soon result when muscles try to do workloads they were not designed to carry.
My developing technique, based on Craig's basics, and now being refined for more detailed advanced movements is completely as relaxed as the hands, wrists and forearms can be and still play. It is possible play with more vertical hands, with fingers drooping down like hanging jelly bags, then energize just enough before contact to come down and hit the right key combos, then immediately relax for the next hand position change, or change of weight distribution within position, to repeat, is my style now. It works for me. These exercise regimens look to me to be rather rigid and stiff, plus they are boring. I work my "exercise" spots in the music as stand alone challenges; more fun for me that way.
I think Craig is quite accurate in analyzing the player in the exhibition. Sound like a polemic to the unaware but his way works, at least for me. In the final analysis, each to their own preferences.
I have found rotation to be a difficult concept to grasp... until now. Now I need to work on it and focus on the correct fingers and don't fight it.
Couldn't you argue that these exercises are in fact useful for learning to use rotation and movement from the arm when using a single finger? I agree that the body is poorly designed for "finger independence", but the reality of playing piano is that we activate single fingers (and the attached wrist and arm) at all times. Locking the fingers in place is an exercise in finding a balance between resting/relaxing the fingers on the keybed, whilst there's active motion elsewhere. I can see that there is rotation and arm motion everywhere in this exercise, but perhaps it's not so bad and even desirable that it's used subconsciously by the student? The human body has a talent for finding the path of the least resistance, and maybe a student doesn't always have to be aware of the minute details. One thing I struggle with in teaching is that over emphasis on specific movements tends result in forceful exaggerated movements, whereas the goal is natural and fluent motion.
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can you what is the most dificult piano piace you have ever play?
Also, independence is not a binary. Would you only describe a person as having an independent nature, if they live as an outright hermit in the woods and never meet a soul? No, it exists as a spectrum, with degrees of independence. The fingers indeed need plenty of independence, in spite of also existing in relationship to other parts.
It's shortsighted when people only say to use finger independence without linking to needed arm responses. But it's equally misleading to dismiss the concept of finger independence, and to elevate secondary elements without clarifying the details of the lesser role in a blend. It's no use stressing rotation if we don't state how secondary its role is compared to finger action, in depressing the keys. It's to ensure fingers are free to make their primary contribution without being restricted, not to do it for them.
Yes you make a valid point
what's wrong with rotation?
Nothing! Rotation is an essential movement of the arm that should be used all the time when we play. The pianist in the video I'm reacting to doesn't seem to realize or understand that they are using rotation. Instead, they seem to think, as most people do, that they're just simply training their fingers and gaining strength in Independence. But in reality, they are naturally using rotational movements of the arm to facilitate the movement of the fingers.
Thanks for the feedback!
I have always used rotation and actually really like doing it for fluid movements up and down scales.
I am still not on the same level as either of you in the video on finger independence, but I try and practice hands separately.
When I join them back up I just take my time to absorb the information of how the LH and RH notes align.
Sorry, but none of this is meaningful unless we actually identify the individual roles. The finger is the primary mover of the key. The rotation is primarily a passive *response*, in terms of action and reaction, and can also help with releasing each key.
If you don't accurately define the role of rotation (and all the moreso if you bring in arm weight as if it's what puts the keys down) then it doesn't make any more sense of it than when simply saying to isolate the fingers. It muddies things every bit as much to start saying you need rotation and arm weight without the slightest indication that they are not the actual source of moving the keys. They have a secondary association while fingers indeed move the keys. The association is important but you aren't shedding any light here on what that association is.
"that they are not the actual source of moving the key" - but they are. Just not exclusively. Nothing is muddied: there is no single source. And if you strive for it you will create technical limitations
@@seheyt simply not true. Rotation can be reduced to truly negligible levels of actual energy transfer, while still playing its truly necessary role (of allowing free and unrestricted finger movement) entirely appropriately.
Even when offering a more notable percentage, it's a much less versatile factor than the finger movement and will necessarily be the lesser factor in almost everything at higher speeds. Don't be fooled by what can be done slowly only.
@@seheyt that a balance can exist does not mean that we should portray the rotation in altogether equal terms to the finger motions.
Do rotations matter? Yes? Do they have an equal role in the literal energy that sends the keys down? No. This must be understood for meaningful experiments to occur. Their main and most essential role is an indirect association that creates freedom, not a takeover from the fingers. Viewing rotation chiefly in the role of actively moving the keys actively distracts from its biggest role.
@@cziffra1980 I think I agree on everything, but I'm really really confused how then you are then somehow so offended to this vid highlighting the aspect neglected by the vid being commented on. Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@seheytwell, admittedly he doesn't say not to move the fingers. However, I still feel the lack of clarity in explanation will shove people towards an opposite pole- of too much arm pressure and not enough finger action.
We have the importance of including rotation but we don't have any clarity at all on what it is for or how to use it. Without that, the default is to use it to pile energy down into overly passive fingers, as the main energy source.
The explanation is a step beyond one that says lock the arm and move fingers only, but it will most likely encourage a swing too far in the opposite direction. The break down of roles should be communicated more precisely. More is mentioned but they all are all lumped in with too much ambiguity. He also claims the finger muscles are too weak. No, they just feel weak when the arm is locked. The other elements are chiefly needed to free their true capability, not to steam in on doing their job for them.