2016 Personality Lecture 13: Conscientiousness: Industriousness and Orderliness
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- čas přidán 31. 03. 2016
- Conscientiousness is the best predictor of long-term life success across multiple domains (including academic and managerial/administrative performance). It breaks down into two aspects: industriousness and orderliness. Industrious people are hard-working, attentive and focused. Orderly people like things where they belong, and are concerned with preserving the integrity of the borders between things. We don't know much about the psychological basis of industriousness. Orderliness, however, appears to be associated with disgust sensitivity, with the "behavioral immune system," and is in all probability elevated in geographical locales where infectious disease is prevalent. It is also a good predictor of political conservatism. When disgust sensitivity gets out of hand, too much cleansing (ethnic and otherwise) becomes increasingly possible.
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His class lectures before he became famous. They're gold
Better i find. He's more natural and less self aware. I do love his current stuff too but find the older videos more relaxing to listen to rather than intensively engaging
it's nice to listen to 100% teacher vs some % performer
“So What you’re saying is: after fame lectures are not as good!?”
So much better before his hiatus. These lectures gave my life meaning when all I had before was a lust for pleasure.
@@gaykillerabe yes
Germany, Switzerland, Austria and most of the Nordic countries are cultures which value conscientiousness and it shows up in their squeaky clean cities and value of timeliness, order, etc.
France, Italy, Spain are cultures with lower value on conscientiousness and are thus more "laid back" countries with a bit more corruption and dirty cities. They also, however, have a reputation for being more "romantic" and warmer, more passionate people in terms of art, expression, etc.
I think there's trade offs with either
@Christina Reynolds I think that the Nordic countries (Sweden in particular) have shown what happens when progressive values develop into pathological altruism.
Christina Reynolds “what does it have to do with the topic?”
He was pointing out that yes, there are trade offs and dichotomies to the character traits.
Christina Reynolds i recommend you take some math classes. They will help your brain make quicker connections between concepts.
@Christina Reynolds Hahahahahahah
@Christina Reynolds u r so funny
One of the most impactful things I've ever watched.
One of the most crypto Nazi things I’ve ever watched.
@@dietertheanteater 😂😂😂😂 It doesn't matter what the guy says. You've already decided you don't like him. You're so simple that you hate it all, regardless of how positive it is for society.
How impactfull
Thank you for posting your lectures for free Professor Peterson, I've learned so much!
What if...
the cure for neuroticism is working on your conscientiousness?
I'm extremely neurotic, and made a conscious decision to be as conscientious as possible (even though I deeply hate performing tedious tasks and have spent my twenties running from responsibility like it's Death itself).
The outcome: I sleep better, and I experience way less negative emotion.
Not to mention I spend less and earn more.
It started as an experiment after watching JP for weeks...but I like it.
A lot ☺️
Just curious it still working for you after one year?
I think you are on to something. Stability definitely helps.
I agree with this. It’s helped me in long run as well.
This is not new. Jordan Peterson already discussed this exact thing on 4:54
he said conscientiousness is highly related to neuroticism negatively.
the more conscientious you are, the less neurotic you are.
🎉 That is a very awesome testimonial.
And a very pragmatic.
Rationale.
I am astounded by how clear, organized and direct this lecture is. Compare this to the way, for instance, Noam Chomsky speaks.
:)
What I like too is also the lack of pretense when he's making ti up as he's going and struggling to order his thoughts before he shoots them out.
I don't think Chomsky is unclear at all on his thinking. He is quite intelligent too.
could probably guess he's wrong on language because if he was right on language he would be right on a lot of things because he'd be able to analyse the language used
I love that he speaks complete sentences (why the hell is that so rare!?). :)
I have never learned more about the world in a span of 1 hour and 15 minutes.
On a somewhat humorous side note, if orderliness taken to the extreme was a prerequisite for the rise of Nazism and Fascism, then perhaps that can help explain why unlike the Germans and the Japanese, the Italians were such terrible fascists. LOL
As an Italian I obviously got triggered but then I realized there can be something right in what you said. However think about the Romans and the sense of immense order that exhales from everything they have ever done
Perhaps the desire for order came from their feelings of hopelessness via essential bankruptcy.
The Germans have always been fiercely creative and Independent minded.
Understandable as an instant reaction, I suppose--but "terrible fascist" is a compliment for a creative & agreeable people like the Italians (I'm not of Italian descent, BTW). How's THAT for positive racism?
As an italian I think you're right on the money lol
@@gpietra ofc here we're all simplifying at extreme, and the joke about the Italians being terrible fascists is funny. Just wanted to say that Italians are not Ancient Romans.
When you tend to clean your room just too much.
you also clean polands room
@@lightgrey5365And then try to clean France's room - with a short trip past Russia door to TRY and clean that room but then being interrupted.
I wonder how our society will change in relation to conscientious (particularly regarding disgust sensitivity) with the occurrence of Covid-19 and how it will impact politics especially
It's great to see a recent comment. With the higher incidence of contagious disease awareness & behaviours such as sanitising & cleaning, as well as the general societal instability due to the riots etc, my prediction is people will tend to vote more conservative. Essentially Trump has all but won already.
Yash C. Yes I had assumed similar although I’m not sure how trump is faring now with his decreasing popularity in the polls in many states. However anything can happen in American politics 😂
Yea to check back on this a year later: the whole conservative/cleanliness thing fell apart fast. I think it's because conservatism is more concerned with the fairness of the system, and it's pretty obvious at this point that most of the covid measures were/are being abused as political tools rather than genuine health tools. I think that conservatives refusing to wear masks and follow orders is a direct result of their observation of the corrupt system. It could be stated something like "if the game is not fair, I will not play the game. If you force me to play the game, I will break the rules in protest of the unfair game"
That seems like a very accurate observation of the conservative mindset, especially in America. Which is very odd, considering that the conservatives are usually more likely to follow along with the rules of the game. But I think what has happened is precisely that they notice the rules of the game have changed, and changed to such a degree as to invalidate what the original rules were understood as upholding. They believe the Covid restrictions are political tools to grab more power over the people, in the hopes of "protecting" the people from said virus. What interests me is what Peterson says after 1:00:00, when he shares the results of the study that found a direct correlation between authoritarian governments and pathogen prevalence. I think we are seeing the results of that across the world in how countries are/have been responding to the Covid crisis. Governments have made huge leaps in mandates/executive orders/laws that have placed restrictions on the free movement/action of the people and thus placing more power in the hands of the government. Whether this has been the conscious decision of the powers at be, that through this pandemic they now have the opportunity grab more power, or not, that has been a consequence of it. And I think the conservatives now are more concerned (in America, at least) with the amount of power the government has been taking for themselves than they are about the dangers of the virus, and are viewing these as violations against the original rules of the game.
This is one of the most amazing things I have ever heard!
Found it ironic I was on a house cleaning binge while cringing in disgust listening to this 🤣 amazing lecture Dr. Peterson!!
Listening to him talking about disease is scarily prescient for what happened with covid.
When I was younger, I was conscientious mainly because I didn't want to disappoint anyone by not doing what I was supposed to do. I suppose I was worried about other people thinking I was a slacker. As I got older I stopped worrying so much about disappointing people and I did things I was supposed to do because I enjoyed completing tasks. It was like an accomplishment, even something simple like cleaning out my car or bringing my trash cans back from the curb. Pretty soon it actually became a positive feedback loop and the more I did, the better I felt.
This isn't what you mean but what you described sounds similar to how some people I've heard talking about themselves being hit as punishment growing up and now as an adult they say how grateful they are in return, "for all my accomplishments i can attribute to how i was treated as a child" Those people I've always thought of as having good characteristics that flourished naturally and would of otherwise, not because they were hit at all but more of having the right qualities to begin with.
Regarding industriousness, I can give my own example. I was so smart in school, that I never learned how to study and be industrious. Everything came very easily to me all the way to highschool. So when suddenly in university, work became necessary, I didn’t have the skills and rather than learn them, I just quit. My friends, on the other hand, learned how to work from an early age and these skills helped them suceed.
Very well said and you are absolutely right. Hard work and persistence wins at the end.
Have you ever read or watched any videos on ADHD/ADD? Because that is a very common experience for people with ADHD/ADD.
I was getting good grades consistently from childhood to highschool. In high school they released a top 10 list every semester and my grades were regularly in the top 10.
Then I entered college a chose a course that is well-known to be a highly challenging course in my university.
For the first time, I realized I didn’t know how to study.
Since childhood I was just copying the behavior of my studious friends but I wasn’t really studying seriously. Like making my own reviewers, writing detailed notes, memorizing by just repeating. These are actions that make me feel productive, feel like I’m studying but I wasn’t *really studying*. I wasn’t really learning.
And so in college, at the risk of being kicked out of a really difficult course, I had to learn how to *truly study” for the first time in my life.
oh btw, yeah i passed my course. and i got good grades.
right after graduating, i passed the national licensure board exam for my course too. i passed with good grades on my first try, despite that exam having only a
Hello Mr. Peterson, I'm one of your listeners from Philippines, a third world country but I am inspired by your book 12 more rules for life. Still trying to make my life better and will continue to read your book. God bless you Mr. Peterson
Heard you mention this on Jocko Podcast and had to learn more about it! I've been looking for the correct word to describe how I am, and conscientious is exactly the word I was looking for. So interesting to see that I hit the nail on the head in almost everything you describe as a trait of conscientious people. I learn more every day with your lectures and podcasts! Thanks for doing what you do Dr. Peterson.
Conscientiousness is a state of being. It’s being in a routine.
I’ve seen conscientious people completely fall apart and become the opposite.
Military veterans, college drop outs, etc.
No person is just one thing
Makes sense
Too right, and it's really hard to turn it back around when you've fallen behind far enough
I was a lazy kid but as an adult I would consider myself as consciencess. So change is possible if the circumstances allow ist.
@@silverhiver yeah I went to school for cooking, got established at a really legit restaurant that was inside a corporate owned nice hotel and had benifits and retirement. Got in a crippling near death accident and now I have to reinvent my self and it’s the scariest thing Iv ever imagined I could experience. It’s easy to fall into thought where I just want to give up as cooking was my life and love. This is not easy
Another thing to consider is longevity. Being conscientious is laborious. Most people can work hard for years and hit a bump as is normal in life and just say fuckit, why bother. Which I can agree to and understand. And you can fall off, and sometimes you can regain your ethic. Or sometimes you don't.
Absolutely incredible, watch this and you'll have a much better grasp on the world.
So much knowledge...... Thanks, Peterson!!
the last part of the lecture was pure gold
I am guilt ridden for most of my day (nearly all of it) and if i am not doing something that is fruitful to my situation and i feel i am wasting time and existence. My room is a horrible mess but from time to time i get so frustrated by it that i stop everything and sort the mess to start to do ANYTHING (this is something that can be qualified as an "event"). I have nearly zero willpower. I am inclined towards creative pursuits in life ... always been doing music and writing,.. and comedy is my new thing. Psychology and Philosophy have always attracted me. Now after seeing this video i do not know what or how i am. Conscientious or not? More open or less?
But the video was very informative, professor. and interesting obviously. Confusing to my particular situation but very interesting anyway. Thanks, prof.
I know you'll score less on conscientiousness because the first lines in which you described your emotions, you're gonna score high in neuroticism. And as Dr Peterson told they are inversely correlated, you're gonna be less conscientious
It’s amazing how Dr Peterson described my conscientious friend! Her exact behaviour and responses to things!
Thank you, your explanations really help me with interpreting my own results. It was a bit confusing at first but your explanations of the relationship between openness and conscientiousness (especially orderliness) have put things into place for me.
Oddly enough, Im actually the other way arround, im really high in Openness (top 10%) and really low in Conscientiousness (bottom 10%) BUT IM STILL CONSERVATIVE to my surprise.
Im conservative because I got to realize that seeking to have some order and routine in my life gives me a better living, and with that I can become better.
Chaos is good when you need to find things to help you, but when those things were already found and they proved that they worked for a long time, then it makes sense to have them in your life. Take them as something to step on, then grow from it.
Great lecture, excellent as always.
I was a lazy kid but as an adult I would consider myself as consciencess. So change is possible if the circumstances allow it.
This is fascinating ...I look forward to what he and others discover about orderliness and industriousness .....
There was a psychologist-speaker a ways back ('90s) that talked about guilt being felt as a fault in action and shame being a fault in being (identity, personality). I find the distinction useful, tho it might not plot onto the big five dimensions.
There´s a good catch phrase for that concept: Guilt is about what you did, shame is about what you are are (I heard it from Neil Strauss; I dont know whether he came up with it)
I've recalled that I heard it in that form from John Bradshaw, back in the day. Strauss might be more authoritative.
I disagree with some of Jordan Petersons teachings. But. I must say this man has a huge amount of compelling ideas to work with. He's one of the smartest human beings in my generation.
Also I think his ability to articulate those ideas simply makes him difficult to ignore.
Just did my assessment today ... felt I was at a good place in life finally for true self reflection and have been involved in enough different experiences to get the answers I need ... so much of i I already knew and could have guessed but the definitions are not what one would typically assume so that was really cool to see
Even the certain aspects of me I'm not a fan of ... now I know the issue points and I'm so stoked to fight it and be more aware and work against it as best I can
Ośećam se privilegovano jer idem na sranje fakultet al imam pristup jednome od najboljih profesora svih vremena zbog toga što živim u doba interneta. Slava tebje gospodi!
Love the contrast of happy, enthusiastic sledge dogs vs people told to do phone sales. Very comedic picture.
i have adhd and am a different person when on medication. it’s like i have the personality of conscientiousness (more industrious) but until i first tried medication i was lazy, procrastinated, and only really engaged deeply when hyperfocusing on something, so it was like was either all or nothing in different aspects of my life. anyone with adhd it may help to try meds! u might be a lot more conscientious than u think
Have you noticed any negative affects of the medication? Like being less creative, or having less ideas? Im trying to consider the pros and cons
Yea same here. I'm actually listening to this lecture to try and figure out the best way to harness my extreme industrious tendencies that are constantly at war with my 'impulsive' and 'lazy' ADHD. I founded a tech startup that requires a lot of time and organization, which I am able to achieve on my medication. However, when it wears off after 6 hours, I feel like I am wasting my time doing anything but working, even though in all practicality it will be impossible for me to do any more productive work for the day. Creating a schedule helped immensely to maximize my time efficiently so that by the time I go to sleep I don't feel like I have time to work more, however any change to the schedule usually de-rails the entire schedule. Haven't found an answer yet, but I suspect it lies in learning to actually embrace the impulsivity and laziness. There is a time and place for everything.
@@LewieXIII on mine (Concerta 54 mg) I am the same me but more focused. I find that it slightly increases anxiety and stress, especially if I am not doing something productive. The benefits far outweigh the costs for me even though I do want to find a natural way to manage it.
@@JordanFourcher Thanks for the feedback.
I have adhd, It took years but I finally became conscientious, very highly industrious on my own. No meds. I don't trust meds
Orderliness is the big predictor of life success. I'm
Screwed then :)
not orderliness, conscientiousness.
Take it from me, being too high in orderliness isn't a cakewalk either.
@@Razaiel and you can train to be more conscientious (or orderly) somewhat
@@john_smith_john not even, its actually industriousness.
Oskari Miettunen to some degree one might say
I’m really learning a lot and have found doing your Big 5 test along with these lectures (and listening to Beat your Genes podcast) has been more helpful than any counseling I’ve ever done.
Evolutionary Psychology + Big 5 = W O K E
Wha?
The last 20 minutes of this lecture are terrifyingly applicable to popular support we see for autocracy and authoritarianism in response to COVID.
I’m high in openness and conscientiousness. I love reading and I spend many hours on it because it contributes to my evolution as a person.
That’s fantastic! I’m also high in openness but I’m low in consciousness. This is a huge challenge for me because I feel like I am missing out on experiences and opportunities to further expand my mind.
But I’m doing something about it. Improving slowly.
Keep doing what you’re doing.
@@lampy4485I’m high in openness and high in industriousness but low in orderliness
Absolutely fascinating from start to finish.
32:28
I think this lectute saved many who have difficult lives
Definitely did
I did a personality test and I have a bit of concern highly industrious people feel bad if they watch TV for an hour a day so they will never pick the highest level of do you waist your time . and similar questions because to them they think back and say I practiced x for 8 hours then watched TV for 45 minutes and that was a waist of time I shouldn't be watching that much TV I could practice for 10 hours . basically my point is they feel guilty about sleeping 8 hours you could sleep 7 or practicing 8 hours when you could do 10 . so they mark themself lower then an onlooker might say what you never stop working I could never be as diligent as you but to them it's not diligent enough.
This is a fantastic lecture. I wish I could take a class from this guy.
You already are.
It may be a long stretch here but, I get the feeling that more instances of shaming a child for something they didn't do, coupled with praising the child when they follow orders, would result in higher conscientiousness without raising the iq...... I'm gonna research this
I'll forever be grateful for these lectures, they have saved my life. Literally.
Much love and respect Dr. Peterson
I would love to see these topics discussed in the light of the covid madness. All about disease authoritarianism, borders, conservatism and such. Itd be so cool to hypothesize about why and how thencards fell the way they did.
I’m someone with high openness, low agreeableness and low neuroticism. I have 3/4 traits necessary for high degrees of success but I just lack conscientiousness. I’m incredibly I’ll disciplined when it comes to doing what I must to get where I want to be because I’m easily distracted. Right now is a prime example, I could be going to class literally right now but instead I’m watching a lecture on CZcams. I really need to improve this aspect of my life.
Amazing
I have just finished doing the personality test, I have had a high rank in orderliness but my mum actually thinks am very disorderly, ( i also view myself as quite disorderly). the test ranks me low in industriousness, I actually view myself as a very industrious person, I have started a couple of businesses in the past and over 60% of them have been successful. I am not good with schedules which have become a major problem, it why I am listening to this lecturer
I have been a libertarian for 9 years. But on your personality test and multiple others I am 0th percentile in Conscientiousness and 85th percentile in openness with 95th percentile in intellect. Traditionally I've been very socially liberal but fiscally very conservative. Recently I've become more socially conservative(outside of politics) for rational reasons. I am completely against everything the left stands for but I have all their personality traits, except for agreeableness. I've also read studies that libertarians tend to have higher openness, lower conscienscousness and lower agreeableness. I always thought we don't want structure in the market because of our low orderliness, on top of reason and evidence of course. Or perhaps intelligence can transcend personality based pre-dispositions in political views. I value order, hierarchy, traditional family values etc. But all because I've developed those views from learning about history, economics, biology etc. But that doesn't explain why there are people on the far right and far left who are very high IQ but there personality bias seems to overpower their reason, and their reason simply rationalizes their bias.
Can I just listen to you forever? thanks
I'm high in orderliness and extremely high in openness... creativity and order, blessed and cursed.
Agreeableness 0 ( 0 politeness, 42 compassion),
Conscientiousness 78 (Industriousness 70, Orderliness 80),
Extraversion 91 (Enthusiasm 75, Assertiveness 94),
Neuroticism 20 (Withdrawal 12, Volatility 34),
Openness to Experience 96 (Intellect 92, Openness 95)
Might as well have said "fiscal conservatism is something like common sense business, economics, and budgetting"
Why was I so interested in how Dr. Jordan Peterson roles up his sleeves haha. This guys is great, could listen to him all day and...I do.
45:17 - 46:46
This bit interests me to no end (bordering on my life's purpose).
Peace.
Are you working on a book for your personality class as you've published a Maps of Meaning book?
its all good!
Hi professor Peterson, could you please provide a link for the study you did on conservatism, where you extracted the three factors (masculine independence, religious traditionalism & ethnocentrism) you mentioned?
Jordan, thank you for sharing your insights with the world in such a well articulated manner! For a long time I've been interested in the relationship between ADD/ADHD and creativity, as I have been diagnosed inattentive type. It seems that add manifests a liberal type personality, ie high openness and low conscientiousness. Low conscientiousness seems to be the better known trait associated with add, while openness is not as readily identified being that it has little relationship to success in education, other than its correlation to intelligence. Then comes the theory about lack of external stimulation causing the brain to self stimulate, which seems plausible. Maybe it's really high openness all along, and when such people are deprived of interesting ideas and creativity, which is about 95% of the time I spend at work or school, the creative and inquisitive impulse relieves itself internally. What do you think?
Very low in extraversion high in openness very low in conscientious average in agreeableness( I think it could be higher but due to personal life and political climate in Canada agreeableness may be rejected by me) and high in natural reactions that is why I am here. I read an article by Debi Pearl called Hope which is about hope, developing grit, and neuroplasticity. Very encouraging. A scripture to meditate on was Philippians 4:4-8. I am hoping as I develop a schedule( watched a clip of another of Dr. Peterson's lectures),maybe the high level of natural reaction will go down....? (Not sure how that will turn out,but life will be more satisfying doing more.I am artistically inclined) EDIT just to add on when I worked I was a hard worker, but doing my own pursuits was more of a challenge.
The conscientious person would be less likely to give the homeless person money. I've seen this play out at least hundreds of times. XD This classes are always so good. Thanks so much for sharing.
I imagine lots of students sitting there thinking "Damn, this orderliness sounds a lot like me - oh well, I'll give it another 20 years then admit to being a conservative."
People who are hyper conscientious, disagreeable, and industrious don't really need to be sold on conservatism, because their approach to life and general mode of being embodies it from a young age.
One of the issues is that there are many people who aren't like that, but are extremely agreeable, unconscientious and neurotic. But they wish they were, so they try their hand at conservative politics and groups. However they know that they have a lot of suffering because of that and that they also have been very unsuccessful from it, so they try their hand at 'fake it till ya make it'. Lots of "beta" guys going to reddit's "the red pill" community, lots of ex liberals trying on conversativism, etc don't often stay with it for a few reasons. First: adapting the lifestyles and patterns of those with these traits will give them some benefits, but emotionally they will remain unsatisfied and won't see nearly the same success as 'true embodiers' (so to speak), because their personality structure isn't developed to compete in many of these hierarchies. Also their personality traits don't lend themselves to commitment anyways. "I used to be red pill", "I got sucked into the anti-left hype", "I went through a Ben Shaprio phase", are all things I have seen by people who were truly sure of the value of these worldviews.
Essentially: its better to be knowledgeable of your actual traits and how they benefit you, but also how they harm you. After this you can start to look at other behaviours and ways of self disciplining them and refining them in yourself so that you can actually have a structured approach towards your natural inclination. This is better than a wishful approach to how you'd like your personality to govern itself that ends in brief stints of what essentially ammounts to larping as a conservative when you're not. It'll just come full circle into neurotic lefty who hates the structures, usually because they tried and failed to compete in the hierarchy (and since it took great sacrifice, they feel its proof that the hierarchy is rigged).
People who are hyper conscientious, disagreeable, and industrious don't really need to be sold on conservatism, because their approach to life and general mode of being embodies it from a young age.
@@itsdanzo7515 you remind very much my self, i grew up with my grandparents and i many of what you describe are very real. I never had a father to teach me all these stuff so now that i am growing up i really can understand how valuable is to be conscientious and industrious. I don't think i will be able to reach the same levels with my friends but i will damn try, because deep down i know that if anything hardwork is Gods will
42:13 "Volatility" I believe is the word you're looking for Jordan.
I was thinking the same thing haha
28:41 Reminds me of that time charles barkley was about to give some spare change to a homeless guy and michael jordan slapped his hand and said, "if he can say, "can I have some spare change", he can say, "welcome to mcdonalds, how can I help you""
Completely a d*ck move
How would you compare the big 5 to Jung's work on personality classifications? I see a lot of similarities between these 5 and the 4 basic traits and introversion/extraversion he came up with and had correlations with the astrological elements.
Is there a full transcript of this lecture online ?
I tested as an ESTJ personality type. I'm still very conscientious and industrious and nature but I am so much less productive since I've had children and struggled with postpartum depression and anxiety. I've left the workforce I become a stay-at-home mom to my three children. It's been a few years now and I've seen a significant decline in my negative stmptoms but I can't get back my intrinsic motivation that I once had to complete undesirable tasks and I feel less satisfied with what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis. I feel torn between spending quality time with my children and keeping my environment clean and orderly. I feel like I can't do either one well.
I'm not a parent, but I'd like to ask these questions:
Do you have a role in your community? Do you have a role on your children's school? Do you have a role in your children's activities?
The reason, probably, that conscientiousness is not well observed in tests other than via questionnaires, is because the trial should extend a far longer time frame for it to become observable than say a 2 hour task or even a week's worth of tasks. Of course, when one would undertake such an extended trial, the differences between subjects would probably show to be huge.
Hello Dr Peterson. How do I improve my industriousness? I'm high on orderliness and low on industriousness. I'd like to develop more enterpreneurial self. Thank you!
I guess try harder at work
Volatility!
His student did a factor analysis of political views... That sounds really interesting. I want to try to find the paper at some point.
Industrious can line up with the flight response of the sympathetic nervous system. It is a means of escape. Pete Walker's book complex PTSD.
Damn he did well with his health.
So essentially, if you want to lower your levels of trait neuroticism - "Clean your damn room."
Is that what you're telling me?
56th percentile Contentiousness (6th percentile Industriousness/ 96th percentile Orderliness). It's true that my desire for routine and perfection is what (eventually) kicks my arse into gear... .
Also I'm extremely unassertive and as volatile as hell.. What a gas!! 🙄
Blue Heelers!
This is me to a tee. I scored 97th percentile for conscientiousness. But I'm also neurotic ....wonder why....
Ive never had someone describe my thought process so perfectly.
Also you mentioned that the two aspects of conscientiousness deviate somewhat by gender, men tend to be more industrious, and women tend to be more orderly. And we know from behavioral genetics that conscientiousness has a heritability of ~0.5, which naturally leads one to presume that some genes are involved. So if we assume that's indeed the case, and since there isn't much differences in overall conscientiousness by gender, might it be the case that some of the same genes are partially responsible for both industriousness and orderliness, but are just expressed differently depending on the gender (possibly as a result of different sex hormonal profiles)? Has your research turned up any modicum of evidence for or against this hypothesis? Or is there some fundamental error in the assumptions I made?
Any way we can get this question over to Mr. Peterson so he can answer it for us? Please point me in the right direction if it's been answered before.
What is your opinion on MBTI and the overlap between the 16 types and big 5 theory?
Does anyone has a reading list about the papers and books for this class-series in particular; mainly related to the studies about the big 5 and the correlations within it?
Class page on u of Toronto site
Is there posibility that increased consciousness also causes higher neuroticism? Like positive feeback loop
I am curious if you could measure Industriousness via mathematics scores if they were adjusted for intelligence.
I want everything just right, I NEED order, that rules are strictly followed, but I'm as messy as they come, I also hate cleaning. Obviously very low on industriousness, so explain this? To me I know where everything is even if it looks a mess
escobari that describes me perfectly
Does anyone have any information about the influence of drug use/ drug abuse on traits? Like e.g. cannabis making you less conscientious or LSD making you more open?
I score over 90 percent in conscienciuosness, at the same time I score near 80 to 90% in openness. The other 3 factors are average. What effect does that have on my political perspective because one is a sign of left leaning and another is a sign of right leaning? Is it rare to be high in both?
I feel like I sit in the middle of a lot of traits... Or have been in and out of a few of them.
I can be hyper focused if i have a clear goal and momentum... But if that goal suddenly seems unreachable or i lose interest in it i spiral to the complete opposite end of the industrious spectrum to listless laziness.
These lectures are so eye opening though. I think i just need to study more to understand myself better so i can work out how to navigate my flaws.
I'm so grateful for these lectures and that they're free! What a time to be alive!
With regards to testing for industriousness: you say you tried 50 to 75 different types of tasks in order to get a direct measure of it. Has there been any attempt to study how long it takes people complete certain tasks? Or perhaps the methods people use to complete a task?
HAHAHA.... yeah... he's tried 75 different measures but that one never crossed his mind... sometimes I think the average person has so little self awareness that almost everyone thinks they're a genius.
How would you account for highly conscientious yet highly creative people like J.R.R Tolkien and CS Lewis and the various moral philosophers?
Perhaps it's possible for someone high in openness and low in conscientiousness to develop higher conscientiousness later on with experience? without losing too much of the openness? Pardon If I am not understanding the concept fully.
Joaquin Machado It could be that cultures allow more room for both traits to coexist.
Britain and the Netherlands have historically been famous for both being industrious as well as being being very agreeable, welcoming to new things and people (though the British stereotype is if they don't decide to move next door).
Compare that to their cousins in Germany who are both famous and infamous for their orderliness; something I've seen coming from a family of Brits that interbred with Mennonites where, however similar we are, I am the more laid back easy going "British" brother in contrast to my more ridged, blunt, highly efficient "German" brother.
With that said a certain strain of pragmatism might be a third quality that comes with balancing the two.
Going back to broad generalities in these groups, Brits are known for loving tradition and not fixing what isn't broken, but at the same time they readily adapted to changing circumstances, throwing out what didn't work and preserving what did. One can see this from Common Law right down to the way they built their sail ships centuries ago, which was notoriously conservative and behind the times, yet they were eager to adapt what worked in foreign ships they captured and improve them. It's not a bold to say that whatever problematic novelty the French put in their ships, the British soon after took notice and made work.
Compare that to the engineering Germans are noted for, which despite being top notch quality is also noted for constantly being overly complicated and complex leading to things like machinery that breaks down more often and is harder to maintain and replace.
Jordan B Peterson How does this explain the "Protestant Work Ethic" or
the general out performing of North Europe compared to Southern Europe
and the rest of the world in the 15th and 16th Centuries, especially in
light of its elevation around infectious diseases? The quirk to me is
also that it took root in Northern Europe, which generally speaking,
being further removed from the equator, is less prone to infectious
diseases, or at the very worst, is no better off than the rest of Europe
at the time. Could the devastation of wars like the 30 Years' War where
a much of places like Germany was reduced to ruin and lost nearly half
it's popular have contributed to an upsurge of contentiousness or is
this too brief a period for that to happen?
JRR Tolkien was famously less productive than his ability as an academic (didn't get round to certain translations etc)
It's true that Tolkien was less productive in publishing, but he actually devoted far more time to preparing and giving lectures than most of his peers.
libertarian definition was spot on
it was sir, it was.
Is there a way to decrease execessive conscientiousness? One which is seen in ocpd and ocd
Benzos...
Not medical advice*
I always have a question can someone be high industriousness and low in orderliness
Can someone be high in conscientiousness but also high in neuroticism at the same time? I notice in myself that I am quite high on both, but from what I gathered from this lecture they contradict each other?
This is one of many CZcams videos. If you have an Internet connection you can watch all of them.
What are good traits for a scientists?
So I'm low in Contentiousness (32nd percentile), average in Industriusness (56th), and low in orderliness (14th). I'm interested in these results because I've been described as a hard worker (I have an indomitable willpower when it comes to work). I can agree that I have a tendency to want to be lazy but I rarely let myself be lazy. I'm interested in this because I don't seem to fit any of the traditional models of someone scoring low on Contentiousness. I can see that I compensate often with my openness, compassion, or enthusiasm so maybe that's the reason. I can also see a lot of the evidence of this trait in my younger and formative years (I would find any excuse not to work) but as I get older I become more and more committed to the idea of leaning into the things I don't want to do because the result is worth it.
All in all still wrapping my head around this. Any thoughts or comments?
What test is this?
32nd percentile is not that low. more like average. percentiles are not the same as percentages.
@@rhassanrachdi6424 it means that in a room of 100 people and average of 76 of those people would score higher than me on the contentiousness. Placing me above the bottom quartile but still below average.
@@Qwerty123zzuy are orderliness and industriousness linked? So if one is high in one he is high in the other too?
@@daan1565 yeah i think so
Hi Professor,
I love your videos and I'm learning a lot! But I would just like to give some input for what you say at 7:17, where you say that comedians are high in extroversion because I find this to be false a lot of the time. Many comedians I know are very introverted off stage. On stage the appear very extroverted, but once they get off, they are quite introverted. This isn't always true, but I find it to be true for a lot of comedians.
-Thank you
True. Comedians usually compensate with by being funny. Hear your point though.
the traits of comedians seem very complicated in general.
these and these type of guys. I remember one famous German one who I experienced in the preparation of his show the day before - he was very after it almost manic to attract all the people's awareness around almost disgusting. maybe your friends are also very exhausted after a show...from a energy perspective
I would propose, in terms of personality traits, that this fact of introverts being comedians is due to the trait of Openness as it's a trait that promotes fluidity of behavior and enjoyment of novelty.
As a very self-conscious fat kid in high school, I generally didn't mind public speaking if it was structured. I guess you'd say my dutifulness suppressed my otherwise dominant conscientious traits. Maybe that works for some comedians, they're good at it and it's just what they need to be in order to succeed. Before high school I used to vomit before every hockey game like I was invading France though so there's that.
Orderly people aren't much fun, well I'm extremely orderly and I would disagree that we're no fun. In fact I can provide the names and telephone numbers of 12 close friends, 408 somewhat friendly associates and 1052 employment based contacts who will all vouch for my extremely high fun level. Just last quarter at my Christmas mixer I was told that making people enjoy their dry prawn voulevant whilst leant over my sink was a real boost to party engagement and the post party survey, whilst low in engagement, certainly helps me risk assess my next gathering.
I have a super highly conscientious ideal of myself & what I should be. I am highly sensitive to disgust, desire order, all while being a naturally scatterbrained creative type. The cognitive dissonance between my ideal & my natural behavior patterns is immensely annoying. I'm disgusted with myself for being so naturally unconscientious, but at the same time I feel that if I surrendered myself to order and routine I'd go mad. Idk. Anybody have advice? In a similar situation?
I think balance is key. If you have a good grasp and ability for both then take that into your being and find out how to utilize both for different situations.
Thanks, yeah I guess organization is insanely important, I can just work on that and use it strategically without overdoing it to the point of losing creativity.
Making Men Great Again I'm the same way. I get super bored with doing what I'm supposed to
Plan your day so you spend some time doing the humdrum stuff, i.e. tidying up and organizing, and the rest letting your creative brain breath. You have to do the thing you don’t want to do first. Why? Because you won’t have it festering in the back of your mind, you will feel a sense of accomplishment for having done something despite not wanting to, AND you can be creative in a space that will not distract you. Nothing worse for creativity than being surrounded by ugliness. Always catch yourself when you start thinking about the things you should do. If they’re already taking up space in your thoughts, write them down, so you free up space to be creative. Remember that if you think about it, you’re already spending energy on it...so, start chipping away. Every bit of active engagement helps to propel you in the right direction. You can do it!
Highly relatable. Improving my conscientiousness preoccupies my mind all day everyday because I’ve always considered it to be my fatal flaw. It was going to be the thing that prevented me from flourishing. That’s partially the reason Jordan Peterson’s philosophies resonate so much with me. However when I took his personality test and read the description of low industriousness I felt like I got punched in the stomach. His description was quite harsh and his judgement of what low conscientious people value couldn’t be farther from the truth(at least for me). I know many like me who want nothing more than to follow through but it’s just much more difficult for us to organize and perform as effectively as our counterparts. Just please don’t be hard on yourself, it only perpetuates procrastination
Can someone explain to me what it means for a person to be industrious? I’m very confused with what people who are industrious possess
Is there such a thing as a best personality we should be working towards. Are there people that are open and creative who know how can ACT like a highly consciences person when needed? If you know your personality can you then begin to control your personality?
Bummer! I wish this video had Closed Captioning.
As a male libertarian, I listened intently when Peterson talked about masculine independence. That made sense. But his explanation "I don't care what the rules are just get them straight so i can compete" didn't ring true to me. Other possible explanations?