Better than a gas forge for heat treatment?
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- In this knife-making video series, Tobias Hangler, co-developer of the ApexUltra Steel and trained metallurgist talks about the pros and cons of using an induction heater as a heat treatment equipment - as it turns out, it's pretty good for that (better than using a gas forge I might add!). If you are interested in understanding the best heat treatment systems or a comparison of different ways of what treating your knives, this will be a great series to watch so don't forget to SUBSCRIBE if you are new to this channel!
Heat treatment comparison video series: bit.ly/3I3iywb
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Thank you so much for your visit and the super fun video shooting Vinz! I hope this video will be somewhat helpful to the community.
The pleasure was all mine bud! Thank you for sharing your in-depth knowledge! Can’t wait to release the rest of the series! Speak to you again soon!
Super Helpful! Never tought of grain refinement with an induction heater! Love the idea!
It's not often I agree with everything said in one of Vinz's videos but I did this time☺☺☺☺ Super clear presentation. Great work Tobias.
I've been wanting an induction heater for some time for billet heating. Super efficient for that job.
@@zgi5950 I am glad you liked it Zoltan!
@@clarkeknives4159 i really appreciate it, thanks!
I really love my unit, it's so useful to have red hot steel in a matter of seconds...
This makes an induction forge a lot more attractive prospect, thanks for sharing.
Cheers man! We have a separate series coming with Tobias making a Go Mai knife from billet to blade using just an induction heater so keep your eyes peeled 👀!
Thank you much. Very informative.
Thanks for the feedback Noone! We have more coming soon on gas forge, kilns and fluidised sand beds so watch this space!
Nice clear explanation of a tool I'd never even considered before. Good job Tobias and Vinz :)
Cheers mate! I hope you are keeping well! Merry Christmas 🎄 Rob!
Great work from Tobias! Thanks
Hi Rhinejuice! Thanks for the comment and hope you enjoyed the vid! We have more off this series with Tobias coming in the next few days!
Thank you 🙏
Very good
Thanks Sam! What heat treatment system do you cure use? Kiln?
theoretically if u could get a custom coil you could pair it with a blade design for the best heat
100% that’s the idea so great point!
ohh, I've been waiting for this!
Hey Sebastian! Nice to see you back! Hope you enjoyed this as we have three more videos about other heat treatment systems with the same comparison!
Damn this series of videos is so well prepared, great filming, condensed knowlage and Tobias is such a great presenter, I would really like to see and hear more of him!
And even for a maker who is doing this for a few years there are gems of information, like the heating rate importance, now I will always put in my blades in the kiln when it's all up to temp so the heating rate is the fastest!
Would love to see more of such tips and tricks content.
Thank you both for providing such great content for free!
Thanks Paulius! I appreciate the feedback- it helps us create better videos with your input! And yes, we have a tonne more of Tobias Hangler coming to the channel very soon!
I am really happy and appreciate that we can have such a high quality channel in Europe and especialy showcase the young and wonderful makers that we have here!
Really flattering to hear all these great things. Thank you for the appreciation and I will continue to curate & produce the best videos I can for you guys!
- Vinz
A well thought out video putting together the pros and cons of induction coils. Well done (again) Vinz 😊
My impression of induction coils after seeing this are: they have advantages with time/energy/environmental costs but need a bit of skill to use properly. A good investment for a professional blade maker but not the first thing to buy for a hobby blade maker (or wanna-be hobbyist like me).
Hi Tom! Thanks for the comprehensive feedback and agree with a lot of your comments too!
If cost of electricity isn’t an issue, I would suggest to consider an induction heater not just for heat treatment but for a lot of other things with making a blade (we have a separate video making a Go Mai knife: forging, heat treat etc, all on this induction heater).
So in simple terms, it could be good for hobbyists too from my perspective. I’m sure Tobias can guide us more with this too (when he gets to reply to all the comments 😝😜)!
It really depends on the shop youre working in and what type of work you want to be doing. If ventilation and open flames/fire hazards are a problem an induction heater can be a great choice for a basement or closed room for forging. Therefore you will need a good electric supply. Mine is 32A 380V single phase. We will go into more detaol in another video on what you can and can't do in terms forging with an induction heater.
@@tobiashangler Thanks for the feedback. I’m a ferrous metallurgist myself and have always wanted to get into practical blacksmithing and blade making. I’m not in a position to open up a little workshop for myself yet. Hopefully in the future…
As an Austrian metallurgist I’ll guess you studied at Leoben?
@@UKBladeshow looking forward to seeing your new stuff :)
@@GemAppleTom Indeed Tom, that's right i studied at Leoben 😊 great to meet a fellow nerd of the field 🙌 in which field do you work if I may ask?
Great, just learned what else my induction bolt buster can be used for.
Probably very good for general blacksmithing
Hi Sam! I agree! Especially the fact that blacksmiths usually only need to heat certain parts of their product and not the whole piece (like when bending the end of gate railings etc). Thanks for the comment Sam!
Absolutely perfect for many jobs in blacksmithing 👍
Ever tried Laser hardening? Heating rates can be in the thousands of degrees per second, effectively coming up to temperature in a splitsecond.
Target temperatures are usually higher than what is given in the datasheet, because you don't have 60 minutes soak time. But as you only keep it for a couple of seconds max, grain growth is hardly a problem.
Nice work Tobias and great video Vinz. Looking forward to more 👌🏻
Cheers Peter! The feedback is very much appreciated! Speak to you soon! 🍻
I've only used an induction heater once to do some work on the tip of the blade. As per the video there is zero warm up time and near zero cool down time and you can really control the area heated. For me it worked well - although I have never thought of or attempted to do an entire blade this way. If the opportunity arises I think I'm going to have to give this a go. Thanks for another informative vid.
Thanks for the lovely and comprehensive feedback David!
Yes, induction heaters can definitely be considered to be a useful part of a knife maker, hobbyist or full time. Like every tool, there are compromises and the question is really does it fit your current process or will it improve it (is probably the better question).
Thanks for watching mate and speak to you again soon!
- Vinz
It definitely has it's pros and cons. I like it a lot in the beginning of forging a blade when the blank is still thicker. Once it gets thinner and towards straightening a gas forge ia a bit more comfortable to be honest. But if i wasn't forging mostly culinary knives but something with a bit more beefy i guess i would be even happier all the way with the induction heater.
@@tobiashangler Good point! That's why I think I need to try it on some budget steel just to get a feel. Because of the differences it get a feeling I will almost need to relearn to forge! Can only try. Have a great day.
@@realbroggo i am sure you will quickly figure it out! There are definitely some challenges to it but just as many advantages in my opinion 🙌 you are welcome to come to my shop and give it a try if you ever come to Austria 😉
@@tobiashangler 👍😀
What about oxidation? In a coal or gas forge the metal is shielded in a reducing or oxidising environment, with induction heating there is no choice but to heat the blade in an oxygen rich atmosphere. Does that have a noticeable effect?
Hey that's a good question that i had myself when i got one. My impression is that i get less or at least not more scale with an induction heater because the time at temperature is much lower and also there is no convection. So there is in general less gas reacting with the steel, although youre completely right - of course air has much more free oxygen than the atmosphere of a gas forge.
Great video & as a beginner bladesmith it has certaily hiven me extra food for thought, alrhough bladesmithing is already a 50 course banquet, qualty courses on top of yhe banquet aew greatly received,, Yhamks, Eck
Hi Eck Liv thanks for the feedback! And glad to hear you enjoyed the video! I would love to hear what you think of the rest of the series and see whether you find it valuable too!
I'm new to knife making and efficiency is a big topic for me. I unfortunately don't have time to spend hours and hours in the workshop. So I like to do my tasks in 1-2 hours stint. To do heat treating (non-stainless steel) in such a small time the oven needs to heat up fast.
To achieve this chamber volume, power and insulation need to be sufficient. Heat treating only one knife is also not very effective. So I need to do hardening on 2-3 blades to reduce the electricity costs per knife. This will also influence my working process. Instead of doing one knife after the other. I need to do multiple knifes simultaneously.
I think with an induction heater this could be achieved faster and more efficient than in a two brick gas forge or an electric oven. The temperature guessing is the same using a gas forge. That's a pro for the electric oven. Electricity is always available, nothing more frustrating then having time but running out of gas. If I saw it correctly Tobias is using a 15kW induction heater and he can handle it and use it as shown in the videos. But what minimal power is needed to keep the benefits of fast heat up times?
And could you please describe or do an experiment to show the influence of different workpiece heat up times (induction vs. electric)? The grain structure will get bigger, but how will that be notable in the final product/knife?
PS: Tobias' 2x72'' push stick attachment that is shown in some other videos is a great idea that is worth an own video.
Hi Tim. Thanks for the feedback and the questions. I’ll try and get Tobias to answer the questions if he’s free.
With regards to the belt grinder attachment, we have a video coming for it soon so watch this space!
Thanks!
Not with the current electric prices
Good point but prices in Austria (and around other parts of the world) are still not too bad compared to gas. Also, as Tobias explained, most of your energy (if not all) goes to the blade.
@@UKBladeshow where I live its almost 1€ per kWh already
@@makuuse that's completely crazy, we are currently at 30ct/kWh which is bad already... On a per knife calculation i still think its probably more economical then propane or and electric kiln - but that would have to be an individual case study to really say for sure.
This guy needs to look up what people are doing in the weed industry with heat controlled plates for pressing hash oils.
A huge plate with controlled contact surface might work better then coils and dependant on the heating elements he may be able to get temperature control at a better level.
I'd honestly just buy a molten salt kiln instead though. Takes some precautions but uber fast even efficient heating. Depending on what you do it can be used for forging and hardening. And then an oven even a cheap one for tempering.
He has a point on efficiency. However depending on fuel source you can get heat more cost effective for salt baths at times.
And spending money you can induction heat your salt bath. Not as great efficiency since material. But thermal transfer of salt is great so not that bad and more advantages with few trade offs.
However this guy has given me some ideas on how that could be used very effectively for working certain types of things.
Hello again mate great to hear you’ve seen the pros and cons of an induction heater for heat treatment. And you’ll be pleased to know we also have both an electric kiln and a fluidised sand bed coming as a comparison (we didn’t have a salt bath but it will be mentioned several times in this series). I hope you enjoyed the video!
@UK Bladeshow sand bed sounds interesting, been wanting to look into those and the new polymer baths and related solutions. Some of em might be useful to send info on to makers in other hobbies or down the road if my sword company idea works out in the shorter term can use that for an example of business management to get loans to start a cycling company. Well, a form of cycling.
Heat treatment on welded tubular frames can get annoying even either air hardening being used and 4130 being highly forgiving. Post weld heattreatment has significant advantages, especially if you use nicer quality welding material on the fill rod. New super alloys also present some cool opportunities to potentially double the strength of parts at a specific weight.
If you do manage to get the resources a molten salt bath, especially induction based setups can be super useful and efficient in heating. For knives it'd probably not be too bad to use for forging heat even, but for heattreatment, it's probably the beat attainable setup. Heated oils with induction can also work and get jerryrigged but they're a bit riskier. Molten lead is a more historic replacement but bad lol. If you can find a suitable container you can build your own setups and reduce costs a bit.
There's a molten salt reactor company as well that's produced an ultra dried salt the helps reduce corrosive offgas issues and helps with other things as well. Looking into getting some myself if this investor situation works out for the sword company.
Haha stock removal and a full molten salt set up for both high temp salts and lower austempering range sounds fun huh? Likely going to add the induction forging set up given part of the business model is sustainable energy and recycling and reduced waste materials despite stock removal. Machined bits of steel work rather well for self steels, especially when you know what alloying agents they contain. xD The same with grinder dust, might even be able to do crucible steel with induction heating and the right crucibles.
good information
but too many scenes makes for hectic viewing, it does not make a better video.