What SAWS do you NEED?
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 12. 07. 2024
- Woodworking is not a cheap hobby to get into, especially when starting off. This video will guide you through the options available in regards to saws and hopefully help you make a more suitable and informed choice.
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If you can only buy one saw, then how about a Japanese Ryoba? The Ryoba is not a backsaw, instead it has a rip cut on one edge and a x-cut on the other. The thin kerf makes it suitable for finer work, yet is able to quickly slice through large dimension timber.
Never used one before so didn't feel comfortable adding it to my comparison. Although I'll pin your comment so people can see it easily. Cheers!
Awesome! I will add the caveat that for fine dovetail work, the rip side of a Ryoba is usually too coarse, but then it might be worth experimenting with the x-cut side, which commonly has a higher tooth count.
I'd second the recommendation of a ryoba, especially since they're cheap enough that you could get one and a dozuki to go with it for less than the price of a single veritas carcass saw, and they'd cover you for pure handtool work as well as handtool + machine stuff.
A counter-point would be that as Matt mentioned, the blades in Japanese saws are not easily sharpened but instead are replaced, which means that there is an ongoing cost (is it really just one saw when the blade has to be replaced?), whereas the Western style saw can be frequently sharpened or even modified many times.
I love my Ryoba but it can't beat the dovetail for finer joinery. I like having that added control of a stiff blade when doing finer work. The Ryoba just can't do as good of job. Don't get me wrong, the Ryoba can tackle 80% of a woodworker's needs; especially once they get talented with the blade. However, the finer work of a dovetail likes to have that additional rigidity.
Nice video! I am a Carpenter/joiner who loves using antique tools. I am also a collector of early Disston saws. I have 21 panel, crosscut & rip saws. Most of the rip saws have a thumb hole handle. All these are between 1896-1917 in date. I also have tenon and dovetail saws. One of the tenon saws is from 1860.
Dave.
RIP Cut. We will remember you, Cut.
Up in hevven wiv the angles
@@tombear7730 V angles...
Took me an embarrassingly long time to understand thisâŠâŠ RIP Cut.
Hey man Iâm amazed at how easy you make it for beginners, and yet not too boring for those who know the basics.
I started out with a Harbor Freight "Ryoba" and got a lot of good work done with it. For $10 it lasted me 18 months before I was missing too many teeth to keep trying to use it. I upgraded to better quality Japanese saws, Ryoba, Dozuki and flush cut. I still use them today but I won't be replacing anymore blades. I transitioned to Western style saws because of the long term cost. I do this for a living, which makes my circumstances different than a hobbyist because my tools see a lot more use. I learned to properly sharpen & set the teeth, change the TPI and even convert from crosscut to rip. So instead of having to replace the blade every few months like I was on my Japanese saws, I simply stop and sharpen now. I can't speak to the Veritas or Lie-Nielsen saws because I couldn't justify the cost to myself... I went with old school Disston & Pax saws (less than $50 each saw, most under $20). They needed some work to get them up to par but after that, it's the normal sharpening routine. The only new saw I bought was a gent saw because you can pick them up in functional condition for under $30. I get the same results as I did with the Japanese saws and I'm not throwing away steel now.
Baring a fairly genetic Spear & Jackson tenon saw as my first saw on which my experience to that point was based.....I bought the Veritas Dovetail saw and what a difference! The Carcass x-cut soon followed.......and it was then i realised I had a problem.......I must have them all.
I really love the different Japanese saws - the Dozuki, Ryoba, Kataba and mini Kugihiki. It is way easier to cut straight lines because of the mechanics of the pull compared to the push - and flush cuts. I hardly never use my Western style saws anymore.
Best video on the topic I've seen so far, subscription added
Hi Matt. Thanks for your great videos - really enjoying them! I second groundhogssplit suggestion of a Ryoba combination Japanese saw AND a Japanese dovetail saw. With those two saws you can accomplish the finest woodwork right up to large tenons and crosscutting huge slabs.
just watched a bunch of your videos. has me super excited about getting into working with hand tools!
Perfect video. Answered all my questions.
Sure Glad I found your Channel ! Probably the Best channel for wood working Tips !
I have been experimenting with using hand saws in a bit finer tooth (9PPI) and up with a rip pattern tooth only. They work pretty well, and it was generally practiced in the past this way. Saves the need to have double saws in every size, and with a marking knife those rip cut teeth have no problems crosscutting either. It's nice to have 5 of everything but I am trying to keep the kit down, this seems to really work well.
Great job!! You create every time some interesting Videos!
I really like that you put in context - specifically furniture making - BEFORE you render your opinions.
Do you know how many videos there are presenting the âultimate cross cut sledâ without 1 of them saying âhereâs whatâs best if you are doing Xâ?
Keep up the good work.
Through luck, I bought the dovetail and carcase saw that Matt recommended. But I also have some of those old panel saws from my Dad's garage. Use what you have! They are easy to sharpen and work well. A lot of things depend upon one's setup, too. My shop isn't big enough to rip an 8' board through the bandsaw. That requires about 18 feet of space! No problem with the old 8pt ripsaw. The bandsaw is faster, lol. One of those old panel saws was much smaller than the rip saw, and has a finer tooth. It's great! But seriously, use what you have.
Useful, thanks Matt. Hadn't considered using my bandsaw for cutting tenons before.
Props for the video cutting technique when you made the saws disappear. Very swish!
Great video. Thanks
Thanks Matt, another great video mate.
Informative videos as always....ta
Could you show the tooth pattern up close for Rip and X-cut....I have a few saws at home but they are not labelled as to what the type of cut they are. Would have been handy to have seen a close up of the teeth pattern for identification reasons.
Cheers
this is a great presentation. thanks for all the info.
this is a great presentation thanks for all the info.
Very informative and well prewented useful information. Thank you I learned a lot.
I have a Veritas dovetail system thatâs includes a Japanese style saw with no back. I find that the blade can wobble and vibrate, and it also will bend where it joins the handle, whereas with my Veritas backed saw it stays straight and cuts through the wood like butter.
Thank you very mouch for your interesting videos! You're fantastic!
English man with a French workbench :) . Thanks for the Vid
Really great, informative video. Thanks
Thank you for these dude! You r awesome:D
Really excellent advice
Helpful video. Cheers
Great vid. Thanks!
Thanks
A lot of great information.
Matt
Thanks again. I would also add that a rip tooth shape looks like little chisels and cross cut teeth are like little knife blades.
Congrats on 100k subs!!!!!
You are the best man, thanks for urging up this vid. The dovetail saw I have is terrible and I have no clue if itâs even called a dovetail Saw. I need to get me a good saw. Iâm into the Japanese Chisels and I want a Japanese hand saw
Enjoyed learning from your teachings, Iâve just finished watching a few of your videos. And I was looking for information on a number 5 1/2 no name plane. The bevel on the cutter looked extremely small hence the SOB just chattered ! I sharpened it with a jig and it was like the one you used. With a caveat,I put it on a 56â belt sander with 100 grit. Works fantastic,but,you must be careful of the idler wheel,it takes on a gyroscope effect and can wobble.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK !
Lee valley sells the veritus carcass saws in pairs, crosscut and rip. Lovely set.
seems to me that this would be the best starter set... I'm so close to buying the carcass set
Matt, great tutorial series. However, it's missing a vital component to any woodworker. Gluing! I've seen some other woodworkers on CZcams try to cover this topic but it always comes across clumsily. The main issue being that people seem to follow the misconception that more is stronger. Even when people ask me for advice on glue, I tell them less is more. I see too many people in life and youtube using far too much glue for projects and wind up having a lot of waste. I think a video describing a basic understanding of what glue does to wood to create a bond, what types of glue there are on the market, their purposes, and a general tutorial on the amount of glue necessary to complete a task would go a long way for a lot of people. Thanks for the video; even if it didn't highlight the Ryoba ;-P
I second that!
Oooo great suggestion! I'll add it to my ever growing list and see what I can do! Yea sorry about the Ryoba, I've only used it a couple of times so didn't feel comfortable talking about it in detail!
You speak from experience which counts for way more than a lot of people. Keep up the great vids.
CanuckWild I'll third that. And, nice bench, Matt!
agreed on the glue topic. It took me a long time to figure out that it doesn't take much glue at all to get a joint stronger than the wood around it. surface prep of the joint is far more important than glue quantity, as well as clamping and not allowing the joint to separate once the glue is starting to cure.
The book provides clear illustrations czcams.com/users/postUgkxbnOKZBE4evMO5V2vroHeCjq6d_MV6wJO diagrams that cover many of the essential topics. The projects at the end of the book are valuable for enhancing your skills and creating your own furniture. A digital platform linked to the book that could offer the plans for other woodworking projects with the cut sheets would have been a nice addition, but overall, the book is excellent.
I'm a bit surprised you didn't cover Ryoba. I'd recommend that as a single saw that can do almost everything quite well indeed.
He said in one of the other comments that he's only used one a couple times and didn't feel comfortable talking about it in great detail. He speaks from experience, which is awesome.
nice one matt but l am on the lookout for a good flush cutting saw any info would be nice
Hey! Any thought about Veritas versus Lie Nielsen saws?
Thanks
I like how you pointed out that spending money on a rip saw comes first,. If your rip saw does not do a pretty job of crosscutting, you'll likely be using a shooting board to fine-tune a crosscut, anyways.
Excellent... going to lie down in a darkend room now an have a good think.
Have you risen yet or still thinking?
Great video Matt , the dovetail saw what tpi or ppi should i have?
You can rasp/file/grind/sand/cut a flat or concave on a gents handle to develop those repetitive fine motor skills.
Very helpful. Peace.
Great videos. Maybe add a close-up of the difference between the rip teeth and cross-cut teeth
ty very much for your series of videos on gear and others. well spoken and detailed for a young guy.
Lots of good info. I'd recommend tilting the camera up a bit to include your head. I understand you wanted to highlight the saws, but the bottom third of the frame was dead space (although I did like looking at the bench) so by tilting up the camera the view of the saws would be the same but your head would be included. Less of a headless horseman effect. Just my opinion. Great content either way!
Cheers mate, I'll take that on board!
Hi Matt. Nice video!!! I'm thinking to buy a veritas dovetail rip saw, how many dpi do you suggest to go with? 14 or 20dpi? Thanks đ
What tpi would you recommend for the western style saws? I'm looking at a dovetail saw and a tenon saw but unsure what tpi to buy
Starting with a rip carcase saw would be fine. As you add more saws to your kit just file the teeth on the carcase saw into a crosscut pattern rather than buying a second carcase saw.
Very good point!
Okay, after finishing reading the comments and seeing all of the mentions of Japanese saws I feel I need to add a cautionary note. These saws were developed by a culture that cut primarily soft woods. If you are planning on cutting western or tropical hardwoods with Japanese saws you may find your prized saws to be missing more teeth than the front row at a Willie Nelson concert. Also, that Ryoba has a 265mm blade (standard) which will leave you feeling like a sewing machine as you try to make the most of that 8" stroke. I defy anyone to hog through an 8/4 plank of hard maple with one of those. If all you are doing is joinery then you can get away with it, but as a replacement for western saws in general... No. I'll keep my 32" 5-point rip saw, that I can re-sharpen. For a western saw that will do everything a Ryoba will do, I would go with a 10-point rip panel saw with ground plate and minimal set.
I have actually cut both 8/4 and 12/4 hard maple and oak with my Japanese pull saw when I was making a bed last year. Just happened to be what I had that was sharp when I was working on the project, as my western says were in need of sharpening. Have to say that because of the ease of use, sharpness, combo of crosscut and rip on the same tool, and staying dead straight without a spine getting in the way; I tend to go with the ryoba about 9 times out of 10. Except in any very specific circumstances where anything different would be considerably better. Heck...even when I am cutting dowels, I tend to go for the Japanese flush cut saw more often. Neither one has ever really found a task it cannot master with the proper form and time.
I do commend your skill though in utilizing western saws. It definitely does take more work and practice to master.
Have you tried cutting 8/4 hard maple with a standard Gyokucho Ryoba? It's not really a concern.
Which tenon saw would be best for cutting pine in a mitre box?
(I already have the Japanese style saws.)
One thing which I donât think you touched on was... are resharpenable saws the way to go for folk new to working? Or standard ones out of the high street shops?
Iâve been turning wood for a few of years and dabbling more with furniture making. My current saws are getting blunt and wondering if I should invest in some resharpenable ones. Any advice??
Thanks
Great video Matt. One question... if itâs not printed or stamped on the saw, how do you tell the difference between cross and rip cut?
Mike Livermore you look at the teeth. Rip saws will have them filled square to the plate, whereas crosscut teeth will not be and will alternate direction every other tooth.
Andrew Frink . Thanks Frank...
Hi,ăMike. If it comes to Japanese saw, you may look at the shape of the teeth too. The cross cut teeth look more like a Knife edge, and the Rip cut teeh look like a Chisel.
One drawback to Japanese-pattern saws - mostly a problem when cross-cutting - because the cut is on the pull stroke any broken fibers and dribbling saw-dust tend to obscure the line you're cutting to.
If I had to have only one saw it would be a rip-cut. I started investigating this concept after reading "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" wherein he wrote that any cross-cut saw that comes into his shop gets re-filed to rip pattern as soon as it's dull. I've found that the surface quality between cross-cut and rip tooth is not as much as you would expect, when comparing the same TPI, but the rip saw works considerably faster. Comparing a 14tpi cross-cut to a 5tpi rip will obviously show a huge discrepancy, but 14tpi cross-cut to 14tpi rip... Not enough of a difference to change the workflow. Really - when do you leave a raw saw-cut on a show surface on furniture? Never.
Mike Graham Good point about the Japanese saws obscuring the line. I synchronize my breathing to blow the sawdust away every few strokes, but it's still a hassle.
Matt, are you planning on doing a tool duel for saws? Or if not is there a specific reason as to why you have 2 Veritas saws and 1 Lie Neilsen? Cheers from the US.
I am! Havenât had a chance to get hold of the saws I need yet. Waiting on some spare stock from Axminster that I can steal...
There is one particular kind of saw that's apparently not at all popular anymore with especially UK and US woodworkers - the frame saw. You can see an exquisite example of using it here: czcams.com/video/YFqY73lelq8/video.html. (Be aware that that clip is a joke. Still, it demonstrates the use of frame saws very well, IMO.)
I suppose it got out of favor with cabinet makers due to the ascent of the electric bandsaw - it pretty much allowed one to do the same kind of cuts, but manually.
Why am I mentioning it: it is a highly versatile hand saw, IMO an excellent saw for a hobby woodworker or someone who frequently has to do non-trivial work outside of the workshop.
Different blade patterns can be used for rip and cross cutting. The blade sits in two handles which can be rotated, so that you can cut with the blade in the same plane as the frame, or perpendicular to the frame, or at any angle in between. You can resharpen a blade many dozens of times, and reset the teeth, so you can use the same blade for many-many-many years, and if you have a set of blades of similar length, you can use them all with the same frame.
The blades are typically thinner than other Western style saw blades (but not as thin as Japanese blades, just close), and you can cut both on the pull and on the push stroke.
The blade, being tensioned by the frame, will never buckle, regardless of how crooked your movements are. However, given the length of the blade, it allows you to cut with long, slow, smooth, well controlled moves, which makes it easier to cut straight.
Provided you invest a little time in learning to use and maintain it, and get a good set of blades which all fit into the same frame, it is a very cheap, very versatile, very precise saw, that allows very smooth and precise cuts too. In fact, with a little bit of effort, you can buy the blades only and build the frame yourself, which makes it even cheaper.
Blades are increasingly difficult to find, though. Building blades out of bandsaw blades is wrong - the tooth pattern and sharpening has to be different.
Awesome. The intro always reminds me of Fresh Prince of Bel Air song, and I get a little disappointed. :D :D
Dunno man, I've got a 10 inch crown gents I rehandled for dovetail and small joint ripping, a 12 inch cheapo stanley miter saw cut down into a ~1.5 inch deep crosscut carcase saw, and a 14 inch kobalt with a semi-hybrid pattern I rehandled. Love my saws but I've been finding myself annoyed at only having a scavenged stanley 12 inch camp saw when I could really use another foot or so of blade with like half the teeth per inch from a good panel saw.
i usually just use chissles to cut with the grain and a japanese saw across it
People start push saw cuts by pulling because itâs less likely to catch and skip, not because people inherently want to pull a saw. đ I occasionally find myself wanting to start a cut with a ryoba by pushing. Again, not because I just love pushing a saw but because the opposite isnât working as well as I would like.
I came across 12 diston 26-28 inch.
3 gents saws 1, 8inch & 2, 10 inch.
1 veneer saw
1 Japanese saw you have shown
1 2 sided blade with a Japanese handle
2 hack saws
3 14 inch saws that maybe for a miter box
1 14 inch panel saw (Stanley)
craftsman 20 inch miter saw withan adjustable miter
strange looking triangle type blades some with 2 sets of different teeth on them and no handles
I don't think I want to spend the rest of the summer sharpening them all.
With the information you just gave me. It sounds like I should sell some.
How about the various Japanese (pull-style) saws with substituting the Western (more ergonomic) "pistol-style" grip ?
Bought 3 of those
9,14,19 tpi
They work really well.
As an amateur I even manage, after a few cuts, to get straight cuts now.
To add to the confusion Veritas now offers the dovetail saw in either 14tpi or 20tpi. Now which should I get if I wanted 2 saws?
I find using a gents saw really easy, but I think that might be because I was a chef for 25 years and it feels more natural to me.
Was recently given a pullsaw that claims to be a "tri-cut" is that just a tooth shape term?
For my money I would say, 1 saw? Ryoba. 2 saws? Ryoba + Dozuki. 3 saws? Ryoba + Dozuki + whatever western saw tickles your fancy.
Do you recommend to buy Veritas or better another for the same money?
I saw this first!
James Halliday I see that you saw it first!
First video I've seen-and subscribed! By the way, are you related to Alexander the Great? You look like his statue :^D (Just joking, obviously, but still, damn ... )
I wish there were videos like this in danish :P
The videos are great, but I have no idea what these tools are called in danish, and I can't seem to find them in stores, and all the people who work there don't know the english terminology.
So many reviews rate the Veritas range above most including those that cost twice as much. I've just ordered the rip tenon, crosscut carcass and the standard dovetail, should have them next week. Ouch in for a penny in for a lot of pounds over 200 of them. PS if you can only afford one saw look at Spear and Jackson or equivalently priced reasonable quality saws you can get two sizes for the same price. With a 10 minute fettle with an appropriate file you will have two usable saws while you save up for the Veritas set, there are 9 of them in total last count. You can fry an egg in a source pan and make a stew in a frying pan but would you. PPS I do like your videos but how can you afford all those very expensive tools.
Another great video, Matt! I currently use a Dotsuki for cutting my (me?) dovetails but it also seems to excel at cross cuts. The kerf is super narrow and it cuts easily. What am I missing out on by not having a proper cross cut saw. Thanks!
Yea the dozuki works really well for crosscuts. The only difference you would find is that the cut has less vibration in it and feels smoother.
How can I tell the difference in cross and rip cut blades
hey Matt, what is the best lenght of japanese saw for downtails, 180mm(aprx. 7") or 240mm(aprx. 9")?
I prefer 240mm for my scale of work :)
many thanks! and btw it is pleasure to be your subscriber :D@@MattEstlea
Downtails????
Dovetails
Downtails???
Dobetails
Iâm new to woodworking and Iâm trying to find a crosscut saw that I can buy but having a hard time finding one can someone give me suggestions on where to find one.
I just bought a few takagi sharksaw
9,14,19 tpi
OR poor man's option (or hand tool only option): panel saw and.... the other one you need ;]
I have very small workshop and basically only hand tools because decent band saw, table saw etc are so much more expensive where I live, that's why my first choice was panel saw, next was dovetail saw and tenon saw, but panel saw was able to do all the tasks.
A question from a non-english speaker (I'm sorry for the ignorance...): what's the difference between furniture-making woodworking and carpentry?
Carpentry is a skilled trade in which the primary work performed is the cutting, shaping and installation of building materials during the construction of buildings, ships, timber bridges, concrete formwork, etc.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpentry
Pull saws=Smoother, More Fluid stroke, according to the Ergonomics researchers. Would Western-style, pistol grip saw handles attached to low-set or no-set (that is, Japanese-type) Pull-style saws be the ideal ? Hey, L-N and Lee Valley and Veritas and Vaughn and Bear and Stanley Works...are you paying attention ?
You can never have to many different style of saws.
Thank you for the video. How come you are holding the Japanese saw with your finger like that, though? I see zero Japanese people using that grip, so I don't think it's the intended grip.
Japanese saws are traditionally held with your thumb laying along the top of the handle inline with the handle/blade not the index finger.
Weird, I was taught differently but I guess it's whatever works!
Matt Estlea - Furniture you should give it a try, I find it gives very good control. The thumb is what modulates the amount of downward pressure on the blade.
Hi Matt, on the Dovetail saw would you say the 14tpi is the one to go with ? And also with the crosscut carcass the same 14tpi ?
I just purchased the 22 TPI dovetail saw and love it for boards up to about 5/8â thick, regardless of soft vs hardwood. It starts very easily and cuts straight. I do find it takes an extra stroke or two to complete the cuts vs the 14 TPI. After owning both I would say get the 22 TPI model. I rarely cut dovetails in stock larger than 1/2â and the extra strokes donât bother me. Iâm not in that much of a hurry.
Has anyone combined a Japanese blade with a western pistol style grip? I'd like to try that
My friend tried it at University and it was so weird! It worked but not brilliantly.
Irwin tools makes one. The blade and cutting is awesome. The handles makes you want to use the push stroke technique, and it really throws a curve ball into your over all body mechanics and movements. All of which combine to produce accurate cuts.
Silky used to make a framing saw that was very much like that. It was called the Silky Zorin and the Shelter Institute recommended them as standard equipment for cross cutting timbers. People don't understand that the impulse hardened blades means they don't have to use tooth patterns that are easy to sharpen since you cannot sharpen impulse hardened teeth anyway. That means they get a harder tooth and it gives them open season to use exotic tooth patterns. czcams.com/video/IQYIzXq8uS8/video.html
No coping saw?
he reviews one in the 5 essential tools video
Can a Japanese saw be sharpened?
What about european frame saws?
Lol Japanese saws are some of the best, most accurate hand saws you cane buy!
U forgot to mention
Coping Saws
Hack Saws
Wallboard Saws
Would be nice if they were added.
I'll buy a power saw
Hmm. You don't really say what makes a rip saw or a cross cut saw. If it's not labeled with the fancy laser etching, how can I tell them apart. You also mention a carcase saw without saying what it is. I grew up with just a carpenter's saw and a hack saw, so the carcase term is completely new to me. I've no idea what it is or what makes it different.
So a rip saw will have teeth that are square to the plate. Think lots of little chisels. A crosscut saw will have teeth at an angle other than 90 degrees to the plate. Those teeth will alternate angles as well. It will make more sense when you look at them. As for the carcass saw, itâs mostly the size of it that gives it that name. Larger than a dovetail saw, not as large as a tenon saw. They can come in either rip or crosscut teeth patterns. Hope this helps.
Itâs in their name
I love my Japanese saws. I see no need to use western style saws as they are heavy, use poor body mechanics, take more effort to cut, and take a wider kerf.
Iâd argue that for heavy work, western style saws let you put more weight into the cut and are therefore easier and often more accurate because you arenât fighting the cut
Idkđ€·đœââïž
I came and i saw
I love your content, Matt. On what may seem like a tangential note - you sound like you're constantly slightly hoarse in your videos. I hope you're well!
After watching this video I brought a jigsaw