A Balance Pass to make Assault Rifles GREAT AGAIN! | Balance Discussion | Helldivers 2
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2024
- Greetings Helldivers!
Today I'm going talk about the direction of balance in game as well as addressing assault rifle specific balancing! We'll take a bird's eye view on the situation and where it might be heading towards. Then we'll take a step back to see how our assault rifles can be made more fun and impactful, as well as looking at some weapon concepts I came up with!
This is going to be a long one, so sit back, relax, and let's get it on!
Links:
Helldiver Wiki for Durable Damage: helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/Damage
Reddit post on Durable Damage: / damage_is_still_not_wh...
Invaders resource: invadersfromplanet.space/hell...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:15 What To Expect
2:09 Current Balance Situation
3:24 What Makes A Weapon?
4:27 Weapon Assembly
4:55 Durable Damage Explanation
8:13 AR-23 Liberator
9:40 AR-23P Liberator Penetrator
10:48 AR-23E Liberator Concussive
12:00 BR-14 Adjudicator
13:10 AR-61 Tenderizer
14:55 Balance Summary
16:12 Weapon Concepts
16:31 AR-25 Hurricane
17:25 BR-66 Brimstone
18:46 AR-48 Wolfebrand
19:45 Side-grades?
20:33 AR-48S Jackal
21:36 Closing
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#helldivers2 #helldivers2balance #helldivers2assaulrifles #helldivers2rifles #helldivers2buff
Music:
"Way Home" - Tokyo Music Walker
"Darktide Main Theme" - Jasper Kyd
The current assault rifles should be renamed 'retreat riles' since that what you do majority of the time using them.
The good ol' kill a single medium sized enemy and run for your life rifle
I mean... if we're being fair that's in keeping with the whole _Starship Troopers_ aesthetic.
Small brained take. What do you expect when you're constantly fighting at least five enemies on your own.
You want each bullet to be one hit kills?
@@ShadowDaPk 👶🍼
French assault rifles 🤣
You're by far the best HD2 content creator out there. The quality of your videos and your reasoning is way above the other half baked, clickbait, yapping until 8 min mark, content creators
Thank you for your hard work man.
Word! The journey was long and hard through the clickbait, tier list and scam news Videos, but finally found the best HD2 CZcamsr :)
I agree, 100%. I really enjoyed another creator but the more I watched them the more I realized they're just constantly spewing these hyperbolic, overly negative knee-jerk opinions based on a single mission or a single enemy matchup for a weapon. They've also had a history of this with basically every game they play, with drama following them everywhere not just with other creators but also developers.
Not going to name anyone, but I'm sure y'all know who I'm talking about. Rykken seems like the perfect antithesis to that type of attitude
Agreed
I love how basically every time the word "Stalker" appears in these videos it's followed by "(Bastard)". I love the new SMG just for the fact that it can stunlock Stalkers, it feels nice to give those sneaky buggers a taste of their own medicine.
That Pummeler is so nice for Helldive difficulty bugs. Decent for bots too.
and that's what made it my choice of weapons against the bugs just for stalker stopping power that almost no other gun can do.
@@smileydude12better against bots tbh. They're much more dangerous. Stunning heavy/rocket devastators is huge. Same with hulks if you got a back shot
Democracy demands that the weapons that made it great, be made great again.
When I saw the title I thought you were going to be one of those guys whining about how assault rifles aren't as good at being marksman rifles as marksman rifles. Thank you for actually being a reasonable person with good ideas.
The only one i feel should be a hybrid of the two is the tenderizer, due to its description matching a modern .308 rifle like a G3 in bullpup kinda, and its reduced mag. Otherwise, yeah the ARs need more... "Oomph" to make them able to compare to the 2 most used gun classes, 65 damage smgs and breaker and variants.
I shouldn't be getting outpaced with a 2 handed rifle by some guy with a one handed smg. Personal belief but i feel like it's justified.
That throwback to darktide gave me mental Dmg. How could they drop the ball so much on a great game like that?
Also it's weird how AH CEO talks about how assault rifles are often shown as underpowered when in reality they are death spitting monsters when in his own game most of the assaults are just a joke.
I'm this exact conversation about how hard Fatshark dropped the ball on Darktide right now!
@@rykenxiv Yeah I got to that part after writing this comment 😂
You need to put it into context. The HP of a human is equal to that of a scavenger. Against human enemies, all assault rifles would 1-3 shit a person, depending on location and range.
We're not fighting humans. We're fighting aliens and robots. Most of whom have at a few dozen to several times the HP of a human. Not to mention, most of them have separated HP pools for different limbs that can be severed without killing them. Something that can't happen for humans.
The assault rifles aren't weak. The enemies are just strong.
The CEO said that in response to how weak they are in the game
He didn’t balance the game himself, he is correcting the problem
"How could they drop the ball so much on a great game like that?"
Because Fatshark management is a cargo cult. They copy elements from more successful games, but badly, because they don't understand how they work-never mind comprehending that they lack the necessary resources to make it work. This would be bad enough when it comes to gameplay elements, like a hive map that serves no functional purpose except to be worse than a server browser in every single way, but it's especially bad when they try to copy the cheap tricks that MMORPGs, Gacha games, etc. use to keep people grinding. Only it mostly doesn't keep people grinding, because Fatshark copied those systems badly, because they don't understand how they work.
The reason Fatshark keep blindly trying to copy what works for other games is because they are institutionally incapable of learning from their own experience. Darktide repeated every mistake of Vermintide 2, only harder in some cases, because they just don't learn.
This video is a breath of fresh air around the balancing of the game. I’m not into click-baity videos like “the balancing is going to kill the game”.
This video goes straight to the point and lay out what and why your balancing suggestions are meaningful. I hope the devs see this and take notes!
that title doesn't sound like clickbait to me. i know at least 4 people who haven't been playing the game because the balancing and no new fun tools is getting stale really fast. so, i imagine there are more than just us 4 who feel that way, ergo: not clickbait, but accurate.
But the balance philosophy they have will kill the game
Its not clickbait when its true and the balance guy has a history of ruining a game.
Yes! so many content creators just ride toxicity and negativity for views and it's making the game worse for everyone.
@@user-xo2iw6lz2n You guys have no idea what a dead game looks like. Besides, a lot of the people from Tik Tok are heading off cause their attention spans are too short to have one game hold them for more than a month.
The CEO said that they wont increase the magsize of the liberator because it doesn't make senes since its modeled after a 45 round stanag magazine. however when i suggested the same ideas as in a mag count increase to the liberator i was met with hostility on the discord when i just tried to point out that instead of being "average" the liberator should be the most forgiving weapon as a starter
They could just change the model?
Which would give an in lore reason too.
"current magazine size is insufficent for combat encounters, we are now issuing 50 round drums"
I feel like they should do 60 round mags. They are literally the same design of the mag but slightly wider. It won't ruin the design and I think would look really nice.
@@missfire9480 The whole reason the breaker got mag size nerf:
SE MOT Said that breakers often were found with still half full mags. so they cut the rounds from 16 to 13.
Refusing to buff because of this notion of "realism" is bogus when a tiny lunch box pack can refill multiple rockets, grenades, magazines, and stims at once. Even if you don't change the model, who really cares at the end of the day so long as the weapon is more fun to use?
I hate it when realism is used as an excuse to not make the game better, while it's ignored when it's annoying or detrimental to players (like Rocket Devastators having unlimited ammo and no reloads)
Decide if you want to stick to realism or not, cherry picking convenient excuses is just frustrating.
Love the part where you gave out concepts and I love the whole theme of this video. Keep em coming Ryken !
Thank you! Glad you liked my ideas~ :)
One way to buff the tenderizer could be to make it able to strip light armor and dismember quickly. So if you’re shooting at a devastators hips the light armor is gone in 3-4 shots and afterwards you are doing full damage to that area. Or it could shoot off the Gun arm of the heavy devastators quickly. This way the gun makes a target more “tender”.
Or you could take inspiration from the g11 (irl gun) with a burst that is fired off so quickly the shooter doesn’t feel recoil until after the burst. This would pay homage to its battle rifle looks.
Could also make it a medium armor penatrating weapon. Combined with the rest of the changes it would be a great "jam it in their face and mag dump" weapon...perfect for dealing with devastators without having to stop and aim thus keeping the whole fast paced stormtrooper vibe
@@Northraider123Would make it kinda op with it's recoil. It can already headshot Devastators from far away in full auto
@@AnonymousVenator could counter that issue by giving it a red dot sight....why do you need a long range scope on a CQC weapon ya know?
Seriously tho main reason I suggested that was cause it's description mentions it being a larger caliber with more stopping power...could swap out the anti armor with a stagger chance I guess...but either way it should hit HARD to make up for it's smaller mag imo
Also give it last round bolt hold open and a bolt release for the love of god.
I think Lasers should have that role, personally.
When the Defender (SMG) does more damage than all assault rifles, then something is wrong with the game
Adjudicator or penetrator can be nice when you wanna go through medium bug armor. But the stopping power is just pathetic.
Even the pistols have better dpm than the assault rifles.
Defender does get out ranged by ARs and doesn't have a scope, so there is that, at least. If you look at the ttks between Liberator and Defender, it isn't that different.
@@johnthetactician5139 there's no real point in longer distance shooting with ARs though.
If you want to actually have distance, the marksman rifles are going to be your choice, which are decent against bots. And against bugs, you don't really need that much distance in the first place
@GameFuMaster there is a point, it's for thinning swarms before they get close. If it's an unaggrod patrol, of course, it's smarter to not engage. If it's a PoI, light enemies can be eliminated from a distance before getting closer. Lights are also the ones that call breaches/drops, so there is another advantage to the range.
@@johnthetactician5139 you can do it without a scope lol. third person is good enough
Great video, arrowhead should hire you ❤
I was thinking the same. Holy shit this video was really good. I couldnt quite put my finger on what it was the game is missing and this vid just made it clear as day
I have a feeling he has a better job than they could offer 😂
Time to share this around
following you from darktide to now helldivers can definitely see the hardwork and growth!
completely agree that the biggest point is "purpose" it doesn't have to be popular or super overpowered etc etc, it just needs to feel like it makes sense to someone, somewhere. Give us options that feel significant or at least fun to explore even if they're not "meta"
keep up the good work and hope your words reach many ears!
Top notch work here. Someone should tweet this video at the devs or the CEO.
Do it bro!
Don't give me the responsibility.
They already know and are working on better balancing
Sounded like great suggestions, I've found most ARs to be rather lacking especially due to bad durable damage or no medium penetration.
Of course it would really help if the devs didn't hide important numbers like durable damage. That is an essential stat.
It'd be wild to see the Tenderizer do 90 damage. That revision overall does seem overkill, even if the ammo seemingly balances it out.
One weapon concept I'd been thinking of for this game was the Triple Action Thunder (look it up for an image; I think the aesthetic would fit well). After the Verdict wasn't the hand cannon I'd hoped it'd be, this was what I latched onto. Basically a handheld AMR that's breech loaded, single round, so reload every shot. It even had a patented recoil reducing shock absorber. No matter what happens, firing a .50 BMG from a pistol one-handed is gonna kick like a mule.
That sounds amazing to have! A breech loaded AMR would be great to have!
People aren’t thinking of the Verdict properly imo. It’s described as a 14mm (.55 cal, the same caliber as a Boys AT rifle from WW2) which is bigger than a .50bmg but it can’t physically hold as much powder as a .50 bmg. Compare muzzle velocities and impact energy of a .50ae desert eagle to a .500s&w revolver and I’d wager it’s roughly similar to what the difference between the senator and the verdict are. The revolver will hit harder but the semiauto can hold more rounds and fire quicker. That’s the trade off between the two.
It wont, because that wont change most breakpoints on chaffs. The issue with ars is their inability to handle medium tier enemies in a timely manner. For bots it their tiny weak point, and bugs is the large health pool with armour.
ive wanted a single shot per reload heavy armor penetrating primary or secondary weapon for a long time.
I've been trying to find a explanation for durable damage. You illustrated it perfectly. Thank you.
I think Durable Damage is the biggest issue against bots and the percentage across the board needs to be buffed in damage. A whole mag for one devestator shoulder cannon is insane.
I'd like to see how your balancing would go if they brought the game difficulty back to game release. Honestly Ive been hoping they move back to their stated idealized intentions. For us to be Paper soldiers, using Super badass rocks, to kill the universes most deadly scissors. Great to see your content here, ive been following you since DT. As a hardcore player of these types of games, I look forward to seeing your post regularly. Please kept up the great work. You are one of my core info sources for these types of games.
I followed your work on darktide and you are a rare content creator that take a scientific approach instead of spreading half wrong info. Always on point, thanks for yours video, keep up the good work
The Dominator only received a slight nerf and continues to be the strongest allrounder primary. Imo at least.
Very well made video. Your ideas for all the guns sound very fun, and i didn't even know durable damage was a thing till now. Wish i could make you lead balancer.
More magazine size is the main change that needs to be made to assault rifles. Anything less than 50 rounds is borderline useless in this game when the sickle is almost an LMG
I'm the biggest penetrator apologist in the galaxy.
It's really good on bugs, it very efficiently deals Commanders and guards and spewers, has a ton of ammo, and is easy to use.
The caveat is your must overrely on it's insane headshot multiplier and pure damage on critical weak points to overcome it's weak damage per shot.
Most light armor weapons you need to target different spots on different enemies to efficiently dispatch them. The penetrator instead purely relies on headshots. Just pop a head and switch to a different target as they're in hard bleed out. On paper the gun is bad; but in practice it's refreshingly simply as long as you have the mechanical skill to back it up.
Penetrator does not have a higher headshot multiplier, that is pure placebo.
@@TooFewSecretsagainst brood commander and nursing spewer heads it does, because they have AC 2 and make the light pen weapons do 50% damage.
Adjudicator just feels better to use. It's dura dmg is less than Lib Pen, but it handles swarms much better while being 98% as good vs med armor mobs. It's just as good at 100+ meters as Lib Pen, but handles full auto in the face better and reloads on the run faster.
Lib Pen just feels pointless.
@@Trooper10231 That's not necessarily true, you lose a ton of ammo efficiency as you end up significantly overkilling targets, it has less overall ammo, and exponentially more recoil leading to much worse sustained dps, which is the only reason you even pick an AR over a DMR.
It's fine if you subjectively like the gun, but if you put the two weapons side by side they're not really all that different tier wise.
Personally I hate the mag size and recoil. In practice it performs significantly worse into mixed crowds. You overkill small targets, when one round of which is worth far more than a round per mag of the penetrator comparing mag size, for a rather marginal gain on TTK for medium armored enemies. Not to mention that while medium armored enemies have bigger heads, the recoil further lowers your effective DPS against small body targets, especially hunters and stalkers.
@@TooFewSecrets Should have made it more clear I was talking about armored targets.
You're the only Helldivers 2 content creator I still watch. You put out INSANELY good content that's well thought and researched. All the other creators for the game, I'd rather be playing the game than watching them. You make me put the game away and think!!
You'd probably like cashcrop too. He's right up there with Ryken
I think an analogous game for this philosophy of side-grades is TF2, funnily enough. It’s a class-based game that demands a specific role be filled by each class, and so the sidegrades have wound up being “enablers,” in the sense that they strengthen certain elements of a class’s role, min-maxxing their “playstyle,”
The best way to go about balancing primaries is to think of alllll the different playstyles and “subclasses” that a player could pursue, and give them the tools to succeed in that niche IF they build into it. Examples could include an infantry bolt-action with med 2 pen and high durable damage but low mag size for a support-minded playstyle, or a beam weapon (like the medigun) with an overheat mechanic that heals teammates but does pisspoor damage to enemies.
@@frogonsizeablelog HD1 had both of those, actually. Except I don't think the medigun damaged enemies at all. It just healed teammates and vehicles.
Please, most weapon in TF2 is either overpowered or useless
@@doomleikaare you high?
This is the best video I've seen on this topic. Constructive, instead of simply juvenile whinging.
If only balance discussions online could be as civil as the way you handle it. Agreed with the importance of sticking to a weapon's purpose and balancing it around that. Lots of great ideas and concepts with well thought out reasoning for everything. Excellent video!
I found your channel during the early Darktide days and I have to say I absolutely love your content. The amount of effort you put into these videos is insane and I find them endlessly fascinating and informative.
I love your take on the Tenderizer as a high impact shock trooper weapon designed for short but intense engagements as that is my favorite way to play the game as is. I hope AH can take a good look at the current state of weapon balance and breathe life into the primaries again and I sincerely hope they watch your videos and take your feedback into account!
LAS-77 Icarus
A laser rifle that shoots bolts of light. The damage, recoil, and armor penetration are low but they all increase as the heat sink warms up. Don’t shine too brightly though or you’ll burnout and have to start from cold with a lengthy reload.
The weapon is designed to be a daring front line weapon rewarding the player with brutal levels of stopping power as long they can maintain good resource management.
reminds me of one of the overclocks for the laser rifle in DRG, where it does a ton of extra damage but only while it is close to overheating. Can be brutal to learn, but super fun when mastered
This would be a really fun addition, and fun additions are exactly what helldivers needs right now!
This comment should be pinned becuase that's a really fun weapon right there but I highly doubt they will ever make something like that
Brimstone sounds stellar! I'd run that all day long. Great video, Ryken. I really liked your balance change suggestions to Blessings in Darktide, and I like this one, as well.
Hey! Glad you liked the idea! It was the one I had the most fun coming up with :)
My GAWD I would 100% finally have a desire to play again if they balanced the assault rifles like this! What a great way to balance them! Great logic! And the bonus idea were great! Each has a distinct purpose and function and feel. I always loved the FG-42 in WW2 style games, so would love to get something with that style and purpose!
the idea of turning the tenderizer into a scar h is very appealing to me. i would love higher recoil, beefier muzzle report, and higher damage. your balance for that particular weapon would satisfy me very much.
I LOVE the concept of the video, and the execution even more! It was really interesting to learn about the hidden variables and to listen to your proposed changes, I agree with your philosophy.
The coolest part tho has to be your concepts, I really wish a similar vid comes for other weapon classes as well, this was a blast! Thx for ur content!
Hey Ryken! I have over 2500hrs of Darktide under my belt. Your vids are always spot on an very informative. I love them! And here in Helldivers 2 you just continue to have this great input. You should get a job in this industry honestly!
I really like your suggestions. Establishing a clear purpose for each gun also makes it easier to create weapons of other categories that perform a similar or parts of a job but with a twist, like if you want to make a "first shotgun" it would be fairly easy to balance that against the liberator but keeping in mind a higher damage fall-off with range.
Another massively important change that needs to be made is to make weapon stats more visable, for example the durable damage stat is incredibly important to know about, not to mention really basic stuff like total ammo and ammo recovered.
As a game developer, I found this video quite interesting. Thank you!
Appreciate the detailed work!
You're incredibly talented and extremely articulate with your knowledge, explanation and line of thoughts. I really wish you'd be hired at Arrowhead as a weapons' balance lead...
More of this plz, I'd love to see your takes on the rest of the weapon categories!
I love your ideas for the new weapons!! Well thought out
Genuinely one of the best HD2 videos on youtube. The devs need to see this
Looking forward to seeing more of your videos and discussions! I'd love for you to take a look at stratagems which may require tweaking one day and what you would propose.
I love your analytical perspective!
This is a sick video man. You make really thoughtful stuff.
This philosophy for weapon balance and design is one I have been thinking about since early Darktide and HD2 and is so clearly both easy to implement and creates space for both current and future weapons to move into it's astonishing that companies who design video games can't recognise that the rote spreadsheet approach leads to so many homogeneous feeling weapons people just can't get excited about another gun that feels exactly like the existing ones.
Love this channel. You’re so objective about the game! Earned my follow!
Now this was extremely well put together. I enjoyed the video! Would love to see a similar approach by arrowhead
I really like these balancing ideas. Thing is, not every weapon needs to be super extreme mega SSS-Tier or whatever. BUT! Every weapon should be fun to shoot and have a clear purpose and identity. It's all about having a huge pool of viable weapons and toys to choose from depending on the playstyle you like or the mood youre in.
I really hope you make these balancing Ideas for the other weapon categories aswell!
If AH ever decides to make some sort of community feedback/balancing council you defenitely belong there!
You're the best Helldivers 2 CZcamsr right now. The others don't even come close
Thanks tonnes for all your analysis. As always, excellent and appreciated.
I'm impressed with these proposals, I think there's a lot of good thinking here. My only hangup is the proposed tenderizer changes; I feel it is risky to make such an overpowered weapon with its only weakness be the ammo economy. I'm afraid in such a case it would lead to players using the supply backpack 100% of the time, and hoarding all the ammo pickups for themselves, leaving none for their teammates.
An idea I thought of that might work as well; give the Tenderizer that much power but also add an overheating mechanic that reduces the rate-of-fire when the gun is too hot. That way, the weapon remains powerful for clearing patrols and small groups, but in a prolonged engagement, the weapon doesn't have time to cool off and its performance degrades to a point where performance is actually less than the standard liberator. It wouldn't stop you from defending yourself, but it'd force you to disengage to get back the more potent fire-rate.
I loved the weapon suggestion section that was fun to listen to
Good video imo 👍 love the focus on concrete solutions/suggestions.
I agree with the concept for sure. The devs seem too busy to make meanigful changes or something. I like your focus on part damage too. I think this is the key to making weapons and strategems feel good. Even if it dosent kill a weap/strat can find use by breaking parts or stripping armor.
In my opinion the dev has had this strict view on balance since HD1 but the crowd wasnt as loud before. They liked keeping things on the edge of greatness.
Nice to finally see a youtuber that isn't doom and gloom and actually provides solutions in a realistic and fair way. Good job dude
So good to hear someone calmly point out the big issues with balance in Helldivers 2. You're right. Way too much negativity and arguing happens over balance in this game. And your suggested fixes and weapons would be great for the game. Each weapon has a distinct feel and provides much needed variety.
I like the concepts you described in this video. Good job.
As a note, I want to mention that AH has clarified that changing the mag size is not as simple as it sounds because they have to change the model to accommodate the rounds realistically. So, in future balance proposals I suggest you keep that in mind and not try to change the mag size as a balancing mechanic too much, if at all, because it's harder for AH to chose to change it compare to other stats due to the extra work it needs. Better try to balance around changing other stats.
Very good, would love to try your weapons out.
Thanks for the good work as always 👍
liked your Darktide content and I like what you're doing with with Helldivers.... keep it up!
Hi Ryken, great video!
Last week, I had access to the invaders spreadsheet and wanted to see if there was an equation / index that could predict when a weapon feels effective or fun to use, and settled on this:
Firepower Index = (Burst DPS) x (Total Sustained Damage) x (Damage loss ratios [inaccuracy, lack of armor pen])
The underlying idea here is that although the game's underlying systems are extremely complicated, from a gameplay impact perspective, there are two standout considerations:
(i) How much damage can this weapon dish out in a very short period of time (read: contexts where it is kill-or-be-killed)
(ii) How much damage can this weapon dish out over a long period of time (read: contexts where you are facing a horde and need to be putting a sizeable dent in it each reload).
Since both of these considerations use the same units -- damage -- you can then multiply the known values for (i) DPS, and (ii) mag dump damage with guesstimates for how much damage you lose from inaccuracy factors (spread, sway, recoil, bad ergonomics, bad sights, etc.) and from lack of adequate penetration against most targets.
Once you multiply these 4 numbers, you get an index that reflects that weapon's ability to effectively place firepower on targets in the two most important contexts. Hence, the index's name: the firepower index.
You can check out my spreadsheet here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZjWnmsM1hbwJu20xKyCFRWRNqNLuV6tsc3eCuh9eExA/edit?usp=sharing
---
Going by these numbers, a weapon needs a Firepower Index of around 12-15 before the community enjoys it. Unfortunately, that means the ARs need *a lot* of help to bring them up to snuff.
Give the spreadsheet a look and let me know what you think!
This is excellent content and the mastery of the subject is fantastic
I know it's not the topic of discussion but the Knight SMG needs double mag size to make it useful. Nobody ever talks about it so I will never stop, it needs to happen!
Honestly the devs really need to reconsider their armor system because as it is Medium 1 is so niche that it's barely even an advantage as most enemies have Light 1 weak points making Light 2 superior to Medium 1 in most situations, or have Medium 2+ making it useless, or if they have a Medium 1 weak point, it's either quicker to maneuver around them (Hive Guard and Scout Strider) or their HP is so high you'll want to use a support weapon anyway (Gunship, Hulk, and Tank). I think the only real target you might want to take a Medium 1 Primary for is Bile Spewers, and that's solely because their Light 1 sides use durable damage, all while swarming in groups of 10 or more and more than likely mixed in with Chargers and Bile Titans. So, 1 enemy out of 33-ish is niche as fuck.
I think what they should do first and foremost is reduce the number of armor degrees down from 11 to 7, that is instead of 0-10 as they currently have it, they have Light 1-2, Medium 1-2, Heavy 1-2, then Hell Bomb, which is how most people describe it anyway.
Second, all weapons primary damage should only use Light 2, Medium 2, or Heavy 2, so there aren't any Medium weapons that can't penetrate all Medium armors to some degree. Additionally Light pen weapons should have at least 2x the ammo of Medium pen to make them universally more ammo efficient than Medium pen.
Third, in opposition to common logic, obvious Weak Spots should be more heavily armored than the majority of the body to incentivize using higher pen weapons for better TTKs, while all enemies should have a rear or underside Weak Spot with at least Light 2 pen to allow all weapons to destroy every enemy somehow.
Rough Examples:
Raider, Body Light 1 HP 125, Heady Light 2 HP 50; Liberator STK 3-2 shots, Penetrator 3-2 shots, EAT 1-1 shots
Devastator, Body Light 2 HP 250, Head Medium 1 HP 100; Liberator STK 9-X shots, Penetrator STK 6-3 shots, EAT STK 1-1 shots.
Scout Strider, Pilot as Raider, Body Medium 1 HP 500, Legs Medium 2 HP 200; Liberator STK R-X-X shots, Penetrator STK R-12-9 shots, EAT STK R-2-1 shots.
Hulk, Vent Light 2 HP 600, Body Medium 2 HP 750, Head Heavy 1 HP 300; Liberator STK 20-X-X shots, Penetrator STK 14-34-X shots, EAT STK 2-2-1 shots.
Tank, Vent Light 2 HP 800, Body Heavy 1 HP 1000, Turret Heavy 2 HP 400; Liberator STK 27-X-X shots, Penetrator STK 18-X-X shots, EAT STK 2-3-2 shots.
I'd love to see as sidegrades to the standard Liberator:
*Liberator SSW* (Squad Support Weapon): A heavy-barreled full-auto-only Liberator with reduced ergonomics and reload speed in exchange for a double-capacity drum magazine and that "bipod" perk, allowing divers specializing in the machinegunner roles to still fill that role (albeit less effectively, MGs are generally better) if they lose their support weapon. Probably only has a red-dot to improve situational awareness and encourage long-range accuracy by volume-of-fire.
*Liberator CE* (Close Encounters): A bog-standard Liberator with just a few little tweaks to make it a scrappy little trench-clearer. The fire-rate have been increased, and a extended piece of frame with a bayonet has been added to massively increase melee damage (especially while sprinting). However, reinforcing the weapon to be used intentionally as a bludgeon and spear meant removing the scope to only have sturdy iron sights, increased sway from the odd weight balance, and the boosted fire rate making recoil more noticeable.
For more ideas, the Dagger needs a rework, and I'd love to fit it into a small family of energy sidearms.
*Dagger* (Laser Pistol) - To be more in-line with the rest of the pistols as valid options to pull when you are caught empty and need a problem solved, the DPS would be brought up to match or even exceed the Sickle laser rifle. However, it overheats (and cools!) nearly twice as fast as its bigger brother, and only has one reserve heatsink similar to the laser cannon. This weapon is a strong sidearm choice if you can temper your fire-rate, but failing to do so will leave you without a secondary in very short order.
*Shank* (Pulse Handcannon) - With medium penetration and even more damage than the Senator revolver, this energy big iron is held back by the standard energy-weapon charge-up and only about 8 shots of consecutive fire. Fires the same kind of projectile as the Sickle, but is basically semi-automatic and only has one reserve shot.
*Katar* (Electroshock Gauntlet) - An unconventional weapon that fists over a helldivers fist and is "punched" toward an enemy when fired, this weapon includes both a melee pummeling surface and a small pop of electricity that can spread over a crowd to stagger and flinch them, or if in proper hitting range converge on a single point, resulting in a respectable burst of damage. It's heatsink can only stand two consecutive powered attacks without cooking, but it has a better-than-normal unpowered melee and three reserve heatsinks.
For your idea of a close quarters liberator, in the first game, there was a rifle called the patriot, that was exactly what you said.
There are also some leaks that show the patriot, with the simple stats of a higher fire rate and more recoil.
I'm not sure if I'm correct I'm this so feel free to argue with me.
How do you balance primary weapons in a game with airstrikes, orbital strikes, support weapons, and sentries?
A change in one requires balancing not only against primary weapons in their respective categories and then against the other primaries, balance needs to happen across the interlocking systems that interact with each other.
Absent that analysis, I think conversations about buffs and nerfs are helpful to get the ball rolling but are incomplete.
Great vid man. Love the level of detail u go into with ur hd2 vids. AH needs to get a new head of balance.
Very interesting - as always. 💪
I know you only mentioned it in passing, but the Knight is actually pretty fun on lower difficulties.
For as long as you have ammo, at least.
AH needs to hire you as a balance consultant
Best Helldivers content creator. Definitely subbing. Hoping these jackass devs take a peak at your ideas.
I hope someone at arrowhead sees this video. Regarding your silenced weapons and the side-grades - I love the idea of having approachable weapons meant to be used by casuals and/or noobs, and separate weapons for the veterans who are willing to invest some skill mastery in exchange for a specific payoff.
The liberator penetrator is one of my favorite guns, I feel like I cant go without medium armor pen now. Diligince CS is pretty good now too
Yup, I pretty much agreed with the underlying philosophy behind what you're saying about assault rifles. I haven't used that entire class of weapons except for the sickle because they just don't have a defined role in their current iteration besides "general purpose gun", with some of them having medium penetration.
Ever since they started changes weapons and "balancing" them, I've been saying that I just want a reason to use every single weapon. They don't all need to be good at everything, but each weapon we get should be good at *SOMETHING*. Some role or niche that at most, only competes with 1 or 2 similar weapons, but each of them having distinct differences between them, and varying stats over that group so that they each feel different to use, but are all useful for their intended niche. IMO, the best case of this is the AT weapons where the EAT, quasar, recoilless, and spear all have very distinct playstyles from each other, but all can be used for targets that require AT penetration. (please unnerf quasar, it didn't need the nerf, we just needed superior packaging methodology to not be bugged so that all the AT options are viable)
Now this is the type of balancing the game needs to have for sure.
Great video as always!
I wish you were the balancing team lead.
Really excellent video - I hope HD2 developers get to watch it. I believe they are open-minded enough to accept this well thought out feedback. (and I love the Brimestone idea! )
This is perfect. You gave each gun an identifiable niche and furthermore pointed out a very big deal - the amount of ammo in a mag can arguably be all you’d need to differentiate guns instantly. A playstyle will fall into place based purely on magazine size over most everything else, except perhaps fire rate.
Ryken dropping us knowledge from his data and military background 🗿
I would have personally chosen the Tenderizer to be our first fully dedicated burst fire AR. Give it a very high RPM within each burst, but a small delay between bursts. Slightly up the damage and keep it light armor pen. The “Stopping Power” referred to in its description could allude to staggering medium/small enemies if you land all 3 rounds of the burst on target. I would also give it the same scope as AMR because it most resembles the Halo 3 Battle Rifle scope. Of course give it a 36 round magazine as well.
This video needs to be shared with AH when they are having internal meetings about balancing and not what Alexis is providing.
Bunch of great ideas in this vid, Ryken. Hope the devs incorporate some!
loving the stats change recommendations, hope the devs would consider this
I feel the BR-14 Adjudicator is perfect as is. It deals enough damage to take out lower teir bots in 2-3 hits while still being able to often take out medium armored targets in one magazine. The heavier recoil makes it necessary to use like a proper rifle with semi auto being the best mode of fire for it. The full auto mode can make quick work of medium targets in close range. It's simply a matter of learning the pros and cons of each weapon.
These suggestions excite me in the way I wish the actual patch notes did. Great job!
Love the patch notes! Some of these are super well thought out. Just a thing on the liberator concussive- the increased RPM without increasing mag size means that it’ll feel like you will be reloading most of the time. So I think a balance between increasing damage and lowering fire rate might allow you to enforce that image of something that still kills.
Consistently putting out the best hd2 content available
Very informative video!
I really appreciate your focus on the "purpose" or fantasy of each gun and dialing its game feel and balance around that. Really hope AH shares that same view as they work on their rebalancing. Especially with the crossbow. No idea what they were trying to do with that weapon or its purpose.
I'd LOVE to see an AK-47 style rifle in the game with mechanics similar to how they did it in L4D. Innacurate, recoil like a bucking bronco, but hits like a truck. Also it needs good meaty sound design to sound powerful when shooting. I was honestly hoping the Adjudicator would fit this role when it got rebalanced but it doesn't quite hit for me.
That brimstone and hurricane are really interesting weapon concept, brimstone feels like what HMG should be while hurricane is a side grade of concussive liberator that specialize more on killing chargers&tanks.
This is what my friends and I would like to see out of weapon choices. It's as you said, a lot of them seem purposeless right now and early Warbonds should aim to give more diversity to the primary weapon arsenal, I would argue that we don't particularly need side grades this early in the games life when the current primaries don't feel different enough in a meaningful way.
I wish they would just let us see full stat sheets for all of the weapons. It would not only help us understand the balance changes behind the scenes, but would also help us actually utilize the weapons how they are supposed to be used. I dont know why we cant see them, the devs think we're stupid but here we are speculating on it based on nothing but playing
this vid is great, it gives exact stats and such of why guns feel lackluster and how to make them fun and unique. it gives an example of how players don't want "op" like what "anti-meta" bugs behind the keyboard try to spout. its nice to see some constructive look at the underperforming weapons and how to make them work that makes sense.
I've been thinking about the Tenderizer proposal and I was initially concerned it would cost it the mini-dmr potential I think the weapon really has, but, the more I think about it, the more I think that design would work well in both roles.
The 90 damage hits two interesting break points. First it can two-shot Devastators. Second, it can one-shot scavangers.
Which means, if it retains the Semi auto / full auto / burst fire, it can be run in the more methodical single shot builds too, operating as a head remover against all bots and a precision weapon against bugs.
And the increased durable damage ratio gives it more utility against spewers as well.
Love these ideas. Hope we get something similar and soon.
I would love all the concept ARs, I am constantly the guy way off in narnia hunting down all the POIs for the group so we can have all our super credits and samples.
i like Eravin's video guide on assault rifles that highlights that low-RoF marksman rifles and low-recoil automatics are optimal for headshots while the high-RoF/recoil assault rifles are better at targeting a limb instead of wasting shots spreading damage between the head and torso health pools.
In your weapon concepts you could use the gun icons from the first Helldivers game since not all of them have made it to Helldivers 2 yet and the ones that have are often given a design update. You can even change their concept no problem. Like for example the Stalwart LMG used to be a primary in the 1st game but with a inverted-recoil mechanic but in Helldivers 2 it's now a support weapon without the recoil gimmick.
as for my personal wishes for assault rifles in this game i wonder if we'd ever get a G-11 lookalike in the game. Or have the beams from the sickle sound and look more like the beams from the Sickle from the 1st game.
In regards to the Wolfebrand and Jackal, there already was a silenced assault rifle leaked that was a Liberator variant called the "AR-48 Truth Whisperer" and it has a built-in supressor, 55 damage, 30 round mag, 750 fire rate, and 30 recoil (numbers subject to change of course).
Another variable for consideration of weapon fit or side-grade-ability is environmental effects.
As someone who played HD1, I promise you, these weapons will get their time in the spotlight, probably against the Illuminate.