Steering box vs Rack Which is Better
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- čas přidán 8. 12. 2021
- Steering Gear Box vs. Rack and Pinion
Episode 531 Autorestomod
While I am still nursing my arm, we discuss the pros and cons of a stock steering system. We also talk about the Borgeson steering box. We discuss different types of racks available for classic cars like Camaro Chevelle Mustang Falcon Fairlame Torino.
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jford@autorestomod.com
/ gasolinemedia
National Parts Depot:
Steering Gear Box Assy: 3504-6N
www.npdlink.com/product/steer...
Opentracker Racing
Roller Idler Arm, Early Mustang Falcon Comet - (Manual Or Power Steering): ORP-1033
opentrackerracing.com/product... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I have been trying to find someone that could break this problem down in a logical way for 2 decades. Outstanding job, well thought out and my 65 mustang is going to be so happy!
Glad the video cleared it up for you
Electric steering here on a stock steering setup. With 16:1 gear box. I can adjust the assist of the electric steering to lot or almost complete none. I still feel the road and have zero maintenance. When working on the car I just turn accessories on and turn the wheel with my 1 finger to get behind the tire. Love it
Interesting.
My steering got much better after I replaced the springs and shocks on my 65 F100. Good video guys.
Yep. suspension can effect handling for sure!
I have a stock power steering system on my 67 mustang. I am satisfied with the system. Just keep an eye on it and due preventive maintenance.
Me too Brian. No power steering. Is hard to turn with a 460 Big block under the hood. Might try the Borgeson retro fit to power steering. When I ran a full racing spool, you could not turn that car hardly at all. Now with a Trac-lok diff posi unit, it is at least street worthy.
Agreed. I have zero issues with my wagon...accept those I created with the big ass tires. Well, I WOULD like a new steering box.
I’m always learning valuable things here!!!
Very glad!
I was able to add a Borgenson box on my 66 Ranchero a few months back and was able to retain the column shift. I had to use a solid coupler and all works well except the hydraulic swishing noise coming up the steering shaft. I will be trying to a rag joint over the holidays. I agree and want to keep the column shift if it goes to the floor... it may get a 5 speed.
Any way you can send pictures of the install? I am really curious. If I can make that work we may do an episode on how to install one on the Wagon. jford@autorestomod.com
@@AutoRestoMod I did send an email, let me know if you would like anymore info.
I put a Red Head quick ratio box in my 72 Mach 1 and love it. I feel like I enjoy the feel, it keeps all the stock parts, and performs really well.
I might do that in the Mach 1. Wasn't aware that Red Head was doing those.
@@AutoRestoMod Its a much faster 12.7:1 but I love it, still drives nice on the highway, but much improved in the city. Now Im just working on replacing all the other bits. I did all new tie rods last year, this year hoping to eventually do a new pitman arm and idler arm for it and should be exactly what I want.
manual or power?
Thanks for the video. Just ordered a borgeson power steering box kit for my 68 mustang. Will update once I install and drive it. I was debating a long time between a Unisteer power rack and the borgeson power kit. The cost of racks has really gone up.
All of this stuff is going up. Hope you enjoy the box. Let us know!
I had a 1980 Fairmont 4 door with a 2.3 and 4 speed on the floor with factory bucket seats. Talk about different. Power rack and pinion too.
I drove a two door one of those for a summer. A turbo and five speed would have helped immensely...
Great channel, thanks for the upload :- )
You are welcome!
Another good video, useful, thank you. For GOUT, I’ve had luck with Rx called Colchicine at .6mg twice daily.
I use indomethacin for flairs.
Great video!
I put a Mustang 2 suspension in my 68 Mustang coup. Also a chin spoiler. Pretty happy with it now
Nice!
What about EPAS type systems on these old Fords... I have thought about this for my 70 Torino formal roof. I have no clue what trade offs there would be. I hate having my column shift steering column and B&M shifter in the floor.... looks like crap.
Thanks for what ya'll do.
Our pleasure!
Sorry about your ailment. Hope you get better soon.
I hope your elbows are feeling better. Bursitis is awful. Adding gout on top of it must feeling about like sticking bloody knuckles in salt water or acid and having to keep them there. I really hope you've gotten some relief and the coming cold weather is easy on your joints.
This video is so over my head! I'm not a car person, mostly because I've never really had the opportunity to learn. I'm trying to understand rack and pinion steering because I think one (maybe 2) from a junkyard could be used to make a table I can raise and lower with a hank. I'm a short woman, and I've wanted one for a long time now.
But this was a very helpful video. You've probably kept me from buying something I don't want by accident out of ignorance.
None of us knew what we were doing when we started. You learn by doing. Get a book, some tools and take it apart, while taking pictures. That's why there is a camera on your phone. Use the book and pictures to put it together again. You CAN do it, but even better, you can say you can do it if anyone asks.
Have you ever installed a Flaming River Rack and Pinion? I’m looking at the one that uses the Gearbox and Idler Arm mounting holes that makes it a bolt in application.
What about converting to front steer or does the strut rods get in the way.Also there was a company at one time that used a 78-81 Celica or 79-81 Supra power steering box.
Borgeson offers a box that is a Delphi (I think) for Fords. Front steer is an issue due to the shock towers.
Very interesting and helpful.
Thanks!
Thanks! Very Helpful!
You are welcome
I wonder if I can retrofit the lower control arm camber adjuster setup from a 66/67 Falcon onto my 62 Falcon?
Opentracker has a weld in kit. Check them out.
I've rebuilt the steering on my '69 Mach1 3 times in the last 40 years. The first time I rebuilt it stock. Good but just ok steering. The second time I went with Borgeson with all new everything. That felt just like the steering in my wife's Camry. Nice and tight. The third time, I wanted to get rid of the shock towers, so I went with a Heidts Mustang2 IFS kit with a manual rack. The manual part was a mistake so I switched to a power rack and the steering was perfect. Great on the highway and on mountain roads. I live in Colorado, so we always drive on twisty roads. It felt just like the Borgeson but I don't have shock towers and not having the shock towers in engine bay was worth every penny.
Glad you like it!
I Really thank you guys for the info & talks . My 66 fairlane came with power assist that video helped !! But putting in the 69 351w, is messing with me lol & p.s. brackets is driving me crazy ,now trying 3nd pump + brackets ??
The Windsor will require seeking out the right parts to fit. Check with Marty at Marty Burke Motorsports. www.martyburkemotorsports.com/ he is a wealth of knowledge for the Fairlanes.
Our Cleveland in the Swagon is VERY close to the shock tower. Ford moved the towers out in 1970 to accommodate the wider 429 and that gave more room for the pump mounting.
Quick-ratio box is the plan here this winter(along with rear bushings, boxing arms and sway bar add). No aftermarket support for 1963 for hoses, but luckily someone in my club made them. Recently the box seals leak, so why stay at 4 1/4 turns lock-to-lock? Funny how these gremlins pop up once a sitting car is driven regularly again. 😂
It still amazes me that even granny could whip around in these recirculating ball-and-gear power steering cars...
And probably out drink us too.
Thanks for this video. I purchased a Steeroids power rack several years ago and I will be installing it next summer into my 1967 Mustang. When you installed the Steeroid rack into your 1967 Mustang what brand headers did you use? Did you have problems with header to rack clearance? My car currently has a set of Casler headers that I put on in the late 1970's and I have no idea whether they will work with the Steeroids rack. I need to up date the entire exhaust system, so I will also install new headers, so if there is a brand and model number you would recommend I would appreciate it.
We stayed with stock manifolds. I would contact Steeroids to see if they have an approved header list.
@@AutoRestoMod Thanks for the reply. Steeroids has a list on line but the format is very flaky and does not really give you a definitive answer. I will contact their support people directly and see if they have an answer.
I actually ran a Steeroids on my 70 for a couple of years. I only had header clearance issues when I tried 1-3/4" tubes. 1-5/8" tubes had no issues. I have to say that the Steeroids rack suffers from the flex that they discuss in the video. It would benefit greatly with some sort of stablizing system for the tie rod mounting plate. I'm currently thinking of replacing it with either a Unisteer, or RRS system.
What do you recommend for a precise no-play steering box setup for a Ford with a column shift?
That really depends on what you're working on.. Redhead boxes are really good for trucks. I don't think they're doing anything with fair lanes Mustangs et cetera though. I really don't have a good recommendation for Ford boxes in general.
Would I have any issue swapping in a mechanical steering box in place of a power steering one?
Already removed the power steering control valve with a power to manual steering conversion from rare parts, part # 27483.
There shouldn't be any issues.
@@AutoRestoMod fantastic. Thanks.
What about the steering system that also controls the wipers like t-bird and galaxie?
I have no idea! LOL
First..... I hope you feel better soon and all the healing ignition box signals from us down south!!!!
Now ...what would be better for us River Rouge boats?
nothing to complicated...just something that helps an old F boat steer better
Love and Starliners
RRS is working on a power rack for the barges.
But what about manual vs power racks? Rack is happening for me because I am doing all new suspension (MII) on my 66 Nova for many other reasons, my choice is now manual or power RACK but I don't want "twitchy" steering in a 2600lb car with 700hp. I do want to be able to park it a bit easier though than a 10 point turn (exaggeration). Would the manual rack get me somewhere in between?
Depends on your tires. If you are using big meats up front, then a manual rack is not for you. In all honesty, a manual rack is no harder or easier than manual steering box. You can do an electric pump system to save horsepower if that is an issue.
If you do this on a Ford, take it from me, find the PS Pump Brackets off an E-Series (van) and use the Saginaw Pump. Takes the Ford "whine" out of it that drives me absolutely CRAZY...... lol.
I know this is about 60's era, but I thought I'd toss this out for the '50's down (pre-PS design) era as well. Before PS was the thing, those cars have super lite caster angle & big steering wheels (mechanical force multiplier steering) and adding power steering to them (esp a rack) leads to a lot of over-steer issues unless you change the whole thing with modern caster angle & aftermarket smaller steering wheels. If you ever get a chance to drive an old Chrysler or Cadillac with Power steering, you can steer them with your little finger (because of this) but it leads to other handling issues if you're not used to it.
Excellent points!
I got a 64 fairlane I was thinking a rack but would a borgensen box fit. In place of stock box. Are they the same size. I turn my wheel and my car will drive circles by it self freaking scary. Is the conversion of rack and borg box about the same price.
RRS USA is about the only company that I know that makes a rack and pinion for the 64 Fairlane but it is not cheap. Borgeson does offer a power box for the 1964 Fairlane. The Borgeson box is the cheapest option between the two. Either option will not allow for a column shift
You guys are awesome if ya didn’t already know thanks for answering my questions so fast.
It is very interesting to me that the imprecise nature of a steering box and associated linkages is described as a sort of advantage in poor driving scenarios like "ship captain" steering. What Would Shelby Do when confronted with that comment? ;-)
The steering box back then we're nice and new.
I drive my classic car for the classic car feel .I don't mind a little loose steering .
Agree. A lot of people feel that way. Me included if I'm honest.
Well that basically told me all I needed to know about what to do with the steering on my "63 Fairlane whenever I get around to working on it. Leave it as it is. Is there someone that rebuilds the old standard steering boxes or does anyone think that it would be ok as is. No idea how long it's been sitting up, but at least about 20-25 years if not more.
The parts for the Fairlane steering box are not being reproduced and the box is not the same as the Mustang so that is a problem. I have a "rebuilt" box in my car and honestly, due to the lack of parts, it is kinda "meh."
contact Chockostang, he rebuilds the steering boxes
@@m56irsul Thank you.
This is good information on the different systems. I do have a question, what is your thoughts on the electric assist steering system. Do you have a video about that system.
We are in the process of installing an electric system in our 1965 Mustang Fastback. We are hoping for the best. Should know soon!
@@TheSmellofGas I am in a build for my daughter and want her to have power steering and I have always disliked the stock system. Damn leaky, over steering crap. Hahaha. I was looking at the Borgenson system or electric. Please let me know how your system works out. Thanks
@@alanparker1598 I used Borgenson in a 67 Mustang Coupe. I like the box. I didn't use it in my current 65 Mustang because of header clearance issues. Borgenson boxes are a little larger and can interfere with headers and require a Borgenson replacement Z Bar. My 65 is a 4 speed manual. 👍
@@TheSmellofGas We are looking at the Borgenson with a hydraulic or cable clutch, a T5 and stock Hypo exhaust manifolds. But now she is thinking about an automatic trans. So things may change before we get to that point. I know there is not a lot of room in her 66 for a pump and everything else.
@@alanparker1598 They exhaust manifold with auto transmission woulduld work fine but I don't think the Borgenson would work with a stock manual trans and z bar. They sale a z bar just for the conversion. Good luck 👍💯
What about Electric power steering, want to put on my 69 Mach I
Not a fan. I'd do Borgeson first. About the same cost.
I have a 66 Fairlane and I needed power steering, but wanted to keep the 3-on-the-tree so interior remained stock looking.
Borgeson definitely wouldn't work.
Today, I'd use the RRS rack, but didn't know about it when I made the choice, so used Unisteer and my mechanic/fabricator made the U-joints work.
Bottom line, with some creativity, R&P can work.
Very nice!
The Ford stock power steering with the control valve lashup was not good when it was new let alone when it gets to be 50 some years old. I went with the IFS with the manual rack....jury is still out if I made the right decision.
Sorry to hear that you are not completely sold.
About 12-14 years ago I changed to a mustang II from Heights. I absolutely love it and the customer support is great. I went with a manual rack so I could still feel the road. At the time it was the same price as rebuilding the stock suspension and steering and I got disk brakes in the deal. So what was the paper that landed on the hood?
LOL it was my crib notes that I ended up not using.
@@AutoRestoMod at least you know that I am paying attention!!
Please do a video with Cams car. I would like to see what can be done with his setup.
OK!
I have a RRS rack and pinion steering system in my XY Falcon. There is virtually no bump steer, there are stringent rules for bump steer in NZ. I think the steering lock is better. As for drive feel, the jury is still out on that.
Interesting. I assume you are referring to feedback through the steering wheel. I say that the feed back would be better than stock for sure.
To be honest I'm not a fan of adding rack and pinion to classic cars. There are some good kits out there , but there are also so many generic kits about that feel great at near dead center on the steering but really show their lack of development when you get to tighter angles. I converted a buddies 68 Galaxie back to a steering box back in 2015 for this very reason. The kit the previous owner had installed seemed good quality but the Ackermann angles were just so far out the car was terrible on winding roads, which he has a lot of. And straight up dangerous in the rain, and no amount of adjustment could fix it. He found an A arm and disk brake kit on ebay and along with a Borgeson steering box and Moog components transformed the car.
I agree, do what makes sense.
Totally agree with you on the original power steering...it's a horrible system. Bendix designed it as a way to piggyback power assist onto any existing system from any manufacturer, without redesigning the whole system. Some aftermarket R&P systems for Fords end up with a larger than stock turning circle...not ideal. It wouldn't have to be an issue if Ford used bolt on steering arms, just supply the system with shorter steering arms. Oh well.
Not everything having to do with steering feel is directly to do with steering. Dialing extra caster into your wheel alignment will go a long way toward improved road feel at the expense of a little heavier steering. Here's a cheap improvement which can provide a surprising amount of results...poly bushings on the sway bar. It doesn't reduce steering play the tiniest bit, but when the front tires start to steer the suspension will react immediately.
I agree, caster is your best friend on performance, I didn't want to get knees deep in that part of it.
Anyone use the Street Or Track power rack and pinion system. Looking to add it to my Street Or Track front coilover er kit. Just looking for anyones reviews on it.
There unisteer racks
& hope doc's help with your elbows Jeff, mine is hands + so do understand sir . Big hug & hopes !!
We've consulted a doctor on the elbows. We could "drain the swamp" but the doctor says that the fluid comes back.
Could you try some tart cherry juice for the gout? Hope you feel better.
I do stuff like that (meds) but I think this one was trauma based as I am up and down off the floor using my arms and elbows as a lever. It is getting way better and I should be ready to roll by next week. Thanks for your concern!
@@AutoRestoMod oh ok yeah i understand. Your welcome!
I had a r&p lock-up. Never again.
If you're driving a modern car you are driving a car with rack and pinion. Even public transportation probably runs rack and pinion well except for on trains of course.
You have to be careful with rack and pinion because while it is more responsive, you do lose some weight in the front to stabilize. rack and pinion is usually overkill but i will admit it is less maintenance.
Ok!
I wanted a rack and pinion on my 67 Cameron, 68 Cameron, 68 firebird and 69 firebird. They looked so cool and drove like garbage with the stock steering boxes.
A well-set-up sagon or racing Box actually runs pretty well, you just have to make sure that all the steering gear and suspension are in good shape. What the rack offers you is a more razor's edge tune.
Given how critical the steering geometry is to a car's handling performance, I'm generally not a fan of retrofitting rack & pinion steering setups into classic cars. As you say, they tend to be universal kits that were never intended to go into the wide array of vehicles they are marketed toward. There are some exceptions to the rule, such as the cradle and steering setup made by Detroit Speed, but those are big money and not appropriate for everyone.
The rack from RRS is set up precisely for the chassis they are going into. Still not cheap though.
"Come here, darling." bench seat. Yup, bench seats are great on dates.
I've always liked buckets better but the misses likes bench seats. So we have a bench seat lol
My 68 Firebird with a 2 speed auto is column shift.. Yep, looks real weird..
I've seen two in my life. One on a a Camaro and one on a Firebird in the salvage yard. I wonder how many were column but got converted to floor shift?
When I restore a classic car I stick to original. Keeps the value up.
Nowadays that is not always the case. A younger generation is getting into the older cars and they have no preconceived notion about car values. They want what they want, and will pay to have it. ME? I like both ends of that spectrum. Some days I loath the steering in the wagon. Other days I want am RRS rack and strut system. Just depends.
Back away from all that Bear meat...get that gout down!
Serious note my '74 Challenger has a kaput manual steering box. Debating 16:1 ratio or 24:1 ratio replacement. I don't plan to drag this ever. It has a 383 so not sporting a Hemi. I want to tour Route 66 and the like with it and occasionally put my foot in it.
LOL on the bear meat. I have done some dietary changes (BIG fun right here at the Holidays) so we are hoping to get it under control asap. I wish I knew more about the Mopars, I would have included them in the show but my knowledge base there is sketchy at best. Love the cars, just know so little about them.
I'm a fan of rack.....
Me too!
After driving my 1977 cobra II, I looked for reasons To leave My 1970 Mustang at home.
The 1970 need A rack in the worst Way.
RRS makes a really nice rack you should check them out.
Drink fresh juiced lemons maple syrup for a sweetener cur out all sugar your gout will dissappear
I love you guys but you might want to reconsider recommending moog parts.
They used to be great but the quality control is gone.
I’ve had multiple premature failures on their parts on my daily drivers.
They might be ok for a car you only put a few thousand miles a year on but IMHO they’re no longer reliable
Love your channel
Good to know! Might be worth doing a video on WHO we should be using.
@@AutoRestoMod I wouldn’t even know how to make a video,lol.Didn’t mean to Monday night quarterback or be critical,Moog was once great.Now their parts are made in at least 16 different countries which definitely affected their quality control.
Unfortunately outsourcing is stand operating procedure these days
Ball joints belong on cars not on elbows, I used to have gout flare ups on a regular basis it has been 5 years since my last flare up the stuff doctors were prescribing just was not working....I am taking stinging nettles ( vitamin shoppe) I take one capsule in the morning one in the evening if I gonna have a steak or burger I will take two capsules before then just continue on a daily basis twice a day hope it works for you if you decide to take them....you guys are cool take care.
I've not tried those. The elbows are part of my general arthritis issue and come from my bursitis.
Having owned cars with both recirc ball steering and rack / pinion - there is NO CONTEST...rack / pinion all the way! Thankfully, my classics came with racks from new...having been spoiled with accurate, tight steering I won't accept anything else - if I ever get an old Yankee or Aussie full size, it gets a rack, and the vacuum wipers and poxy column shifter will go into the bin where they belong.
Eat apples and drink water for your gout!
I do. Honestly, it has been much worse after I got Covid.
@@AutoRestoMod
Thanks for telling me. I have covid right now and did not once consider my gout being affected. Well thank you all for what you do for us. God Bless each and everyone of you and your followers. Get well soon.
Cherry juice for gout.
@@cuzz63 heck yeah. I eat apples and stay off the sodas and red meat as much as I can. I haven't gotten gout I'm about a year now. But I can add this drink toy diet. Thank you 😃
🚨PRO TIP: 🚨
Two guys sitting in chairs, absolutely agreeing on every single point is BORING!!! This is my first time watching and I like the two of you, probably gonna sub, but for the love of GOD disagree every once and a while
sKIP IT, heavy on the amateur hour comedy, light on the reason we clicked in.
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man. czcams.com/video/j95kNwZw8YY/video.htmlsi=7AQYKf3gk3fcb-OI
Yakkaty yak don’t come back
I didn't go anywhere.
I appreciate this guy and his knowledge but I just can’t follow his videos. So much banter he gets side tracked so easily I can’t follow what the hell he’s talking about. This video could have been done in 5 mins and he took 27 mins! 22 mins of I have no idea what he’s talking about.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
@@AutoRestoMod I liked it. Nice to have a video recorded like a conversation and also loaded with info. I'm sick of the vids other guys do that have screaming 80's hair metal style guitar in the background. At least play some 60's - 70's rock FFS.
Omg! opinions are like… ]*{%{%%{*^!oles!
racks are wonderful because it’s what we all drive today and getting into a classic that drives well is a plus. People don’t drive their Classics because it’s inconvenient. They drive like shit. With the technology of rack and pinion that all changes on a classic. What you said about lazy steering… there’s no reason or room for people to be lazy on the steering wheel going down the road it’s a life and death situation. Omg. Full video of opinions. But nothing useful. Your opinion Based on what. You drove one once? Omg.
So, Useless information on this one…Next!
I’m two minutes in , as a UK citizen, I’ve got no idea what the heck you’re saying, so now going stop watching this video! Have fun guys
Sorry that I don't have a King's English version of this