Sex Historian Reviews Iconic Female Characters in Hollywood Movies
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- Dr Kate Lister reviews the portrayal of women in period hollywood movies, analysing how their role in society and within historic institutions has evolved, if at all, over time.
She rates scenes from the hit film 'Little Women' (2019), starring Florence Pugh, Saoirse Ronan, Emma Watson and directed by Greta Gerwig, which details the passage of four middle class girls from childhood to womanhood during the American Civil War in 1860s New England.
Next, Kate reviews 'Memoirs of a Geisha' (2005), the epic period drama film directed by Rob Marshall and adapted by Robin Swicord from the 1997 novel of the same name which follows nine-year-old Chiyo, sold by her underprivileged family to a geisha house in Kyoto, Japan in the late 1920s. Kate rates the film for its accuracy in depicting the lives of geishas and the inherent challenges they would they as they grew up living an extremely regimented life.
Moving on to 'The Remains of the Day' (1993), starring the brilliant Sir Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson, Kate analyses the complex relationship between a schizoid butler Mr Stevens and head housekeep Miss Kenton whilst examining the role of women within the household staff hierarchy in pre and post war Britain.
Finally, she comments on Kirsten Dunst's iconic portrayal of Marie Antoinette and her turbulent life before and during the French Revolution in the film 'Marie Antoinette' (2006).
Watch Little Women Now: AAN.SonyPictures.com/LittleWom...
Watch Memoirs of a Geisha Now: bit.ly/WatchMemoirsOfAGeisha
Watch Remains of the Day Now: AAN.SonyPictures.com/TheRemain...
Watch Marie Antoinette Now: AAN.SonyPictures.com/MarieAnto...
#moviereview #womenshistory #womeninfilm
00:00 Introduction
00:19 Little Women (2019)
07:57 Memoirs of a Geisha (2005)
15:23 The Remains of the Day (1993)
21:07 Marie Antoinette (2006)
the thing about little women, is that Louisa May Alcott, who wrote little women, did not want all sisters to be married at the end. She wanted Jo to remain a spinsters, but was pressured into marrying her. I think the 2019 version does a good job of implying that it only happens in Jo's book, and the real ending is Jo getting her book puplished.
I love this too. And still having the acknowledgment that you can be lonely and it can still be a totally respectable decision to not marry because you prioritize avoiding the limitations of marriage over solving your loneliness, just as it would have been totally respectable had Amy chosen to marry Fred Vaughn despite Laurie loving her and her loving him because Fred was richer. Many women would have.
You're pretty much bang on. Greta has said that the ending isn't "girl and boy", it's "girl and book". And the film spells out the pressures Louisa was put under right in the beginning, when the publisher says that if the (main) character is a girl she either has to be married or dead at the end. Which is what happens to the girls, three married and one dead (in Jo's book)
Louisa was a "spinster"
Yes, exactly! And I would go so far as to say that the film more than implied that ending; it was quite explicitly show that that was the case! It was a really clever way of interweaving the fictional story of sisters with the real situation Alcott faced.
Yeah, the publisher wouldn't print the book unless Jo got married or died
Love that the historian kept reminding us that we need to look at these issues from a historical perspective instead of a modern one.
You mean let's be culturally relative to forgive people for doing crap that should put them in a dark jail cell for a 30+ year sentence? Meh. Also, what modern fantasy land are you living in? These historical periods aren't that different from today for some people. There certainly are females forced into marriage as an economic proposition even in the USA. Human trafficking is very much an issue. Creepy mail order bride arrangements are still going strong (Eastern Europe/Russia/Thailand). Children still get forced into disgusting disturbing situations that are culturally acceptable in some places. You can find child brides in places like Afghanistan. Arranged marriage with pressure to produce children still exists in various cultures. Honor killings are disturbing as all hell. Humans do backwards crap they continue to carry forward. Why? I can't fathom! I guess people just can't figure out how to think for themselves so, they copy the same crappy customs again and again. I'm not about to go all culturally relative to find any of this acceptable or excused. What lovely super sheltered hyper-privileged community are you living in?
especially since she's not doing it in regards to abuse towards children or age of consent, like most do
Trapped...that is the " historical perspective" ....
Literally spent a semester in college arguing with someone because women didn’t have rights in Shakespeares plays. The professor and I trauma bonded
Yeah, I watch a lot of movie reactions & I’ve noticed that the time period gets forgotten quite often.
This lady isn’t just a historian, she’s also brilliant at film analysis. Mentioning the framing, composition, and representation of themes is very interesting.
I love the framing of Amy when she talks about marriage being an economic necessity whilst having the portrait of Mary Wollstonecraft, one of the biggest advocates for women's rights, right in the background.
Little Women 2019 was very on the nose about everything.
I think so much so that your impression of the film will vary greatly depending on how direct you want the "moral" to be. Personally, I did not appreciate the spoon-feeding.
Films should show, not tell.
@@destituteanddecadent9106and that film *showed* a portrait of Mary Wollenstonecraft?! 🤷🏻♂️
@@rainbowsandlove That's not what I meant by show... Portrait of Prominent Feminist in Background is an Easter egg, not a serious part of the story. And if it were intended as a serious part of the film, it isn't at all subtle in its messaging, which to me would signify that it's "tell" and not "show". That's just what I meant by show don't tell.
I can tell from your literal interpretation of my words that you probably liked the film. You have a habit of thinking about things very literally, which would be a good match for Greta Gerwig's style of filmmaking. It's just not to everyone's liking.
Or maybe.... Is your comment supposed to be ironic meta-commentary on how literal the film was? 🤔
@@destituteanddecadent9106or maybe you’re just too far up your own ass 😂
@@destituteanddecadent9106 I think you're the only one here who doesn't understand the concept of "show, don't tell"..
“Lord Byron is not someone who should be talking about poverty!” I adore Dr Kate
The scene with Amy and Lori in this movie actually redeems Amy to me. Because she is a bit of a brat throughout the movie but then she grows up and you see the scene and you’re like oh I get it. Also, with Lori, it cements their relationship to me in a way that no other version has been able to do.
Laurie
@_oaktree_ thanks for the spell check
I mean, Amy is supposed to be 12 during the first part of the story. So her being a brat is not really that surprising. I think one of the problems of not having a different actress for before and after the time-skip (like they had in the 1994 version), is that it makes her behaviour seem even worse. There's a difference between a 12 year old tossing a manuscript into the fire during a tantrum, and a seemingly fully grown woman doing the same thing. It's still a nasty thing to do, but the hormones of puberty give her at least a little bit of leeway in the original version. But yeah, she definitely matures later on and becomes far more level-headed.
@@3lcw385 Right?? You can tell they tried to make her look young, but c'mon no amount of styling and costuming efforts is going to make a twenty something year old look 12. If anything, all that work made her look very unintentionally clownish. And drew even more attention to the fact that she looked like an overgrown schoolgirl. Also didn't help that Florence Pugh has quite a deep, husky voice.
All in all, it felt like a teen movie, with all the spoon-feeding and handholding.
It's quite sad what Golden did with Mineko Iwasaki's story (the Geisha he interviewed). She was a child dancer who wanted deeply to become a Geisha, not a victim of trafficking. In addition, she speaks highly of and has heaps of photos of her Geisha peers. I highly recommend her autobiography
"I was a queen, and you took away my crown; a wife, and you killed my husband; a mother, and you deprived me of my children. My blood alone remains: take it, but do not make me suffer long." -- Marie Antoinette
She never actually said this. It's from a royalist who wrote an "account" of her trial (he wasn't even in France at the time) which doesn't match at all with the trial transcript or what her lawyer wrote about what she said at the trial.
She was also horribly out of touch and an enemy of the people. Good riddance
What does your comment have to do with my correcting a false quote? Everybody from privilege is out of touch. @@gaberobison680
So in other words, she had no power at any point. She was only what men allowed her to be.
Why would anyone glamorize someone who was too weak to stand on their own accord.
“But we both have vaginas!”
@@gaberobison680When mythology becomes fact !. Would you like to give factual evidence to back up your posts?
Dr. Kate is TRULY a gem & totally love her & how she explains things.
This is only the second video from this channel that I've watched since stumbling upon it earlier today, and I didn't realize she is the main narrator until your comment as she wasn't as prominent in the other video. She's fantastic! That said, I sure wish she'd do a video on her skincare regimen! Her complexion has no flaw!
One thing to understand about Geisha and Courtesans is that they were not treated the way modern sex workers often are. The environment in which they worked was very controlled and they were treated like stars. Geisha did not typically engage in sex work, they were trained to dance, play music and sing.
Geishas did typically engage in sex, but they weren't like western prostitutes. They provided entertainment (poetry, singing, playing the koto, and dancing). This would most often time lead to sex, but it was the geisha's call if she was high ranked. If she was still in training or lesser rank, she would take the lead of a more experienced geisha. The entertainment was foreplay for sex in Japanese culture. The Floating World was a way for the man (or rare woman) to relax and enjoy themselves away from the stratified ranks of their clan or family. Get drunk (without losing face) and enjoy company of the opposite sex without causing social offense. Sex was usually the goal for a visiting customer. Lower ranking Geisha houses were more like brothels, but did offer rudimentary entertainment. The geisha today is romanticized like the samurai. Only the highest ranking geisha escaped involuntary sex. Almost all geishas were looking for a rich suitable patron that would buy their contract, take them away from the Floating World and keep them as a lover.
@@swordmonkey6635 I apologize. I thought there was more of a separation between Geisha and other sex workers.
@@rosemartasgaminghoardsuperficially, yes. There was a lot of misinformation used for them. Initially geisha were the working man's version of an oiran, which was a very high status and classed prostitute. However, later after the war there were some that turned to prostitution and others that were prostitutes pretending to be geisha. Given an outsider perspective it came to look like geisha were sex workers.
However, there has been an over correction of the record attempting to sanctify the position. Did young women with limited means engage in sex with clients? Of course they did. But their skill set was much more than that (as was true of the oiran) and in many ways we've been forced to vilify sex work to exonerate those that work in the world of pleasure.
Neither nuns nor OF models, they were individuals. There's nothing wrong with that IMO.
@@swordmonkey6635 That's not correct. That's how it's portrayed in Menoirs of a Geisha, which was written by an American man. If you read Geisha, A Life, by Mineko Iwasaki, she explains that while sexual relationships with customers were common, they were always voluntary and absolutely not part of the monetary transaction. There was a courtesan district in Kyoto where sex was transactional, but it was shut down in 1957. These women were called Oiran and were not where the story of Memoirs of a Geisha is meant to take place.
@@swordmonkey6635 So geisha were more akin to a courtesan or in modern parlance an escort. Sex plays a role perhaps even the primary role but so does pantomiming romance.
I have a soft spot for Marie as well. She was a scapegoat. I wouldn’t trade positions with her. The film is BEAUTIFUL though! The costumes and the filming is just so gorgeous!
I love that Sophia Coppola didn't just ride her father's coattails, and developed her own genuinely unique voice as a director/artist. Her films really don't look and feel like anyone else's.
@@jasonblalock4429 You’re right. They are very unique.
@@jasonblalock4429 The scene where she and her ladies were trying on a huge haul of shoes, with "I Want Candy" on the soundtrack, was funny, but took you a little out of the story. The brief shot of the pink Converse high-top sneaker amidst all of the 18th Century shoes was witty, if a bit silly as well.
@@argusfleibeit1165 Honestly it was silly fun. I'm glad they did that. No one would pay any attention to Marie Antoinette if it wasn't for the styling of everything. The aesthetic lavishness is the appeal. Let's just be totally honest about that. The dialogue? That's completely secondary to the fashion.
Memoirs of a Geisha was written by Arthur Golden who took mostly from white people's work when he was researching it, particularly Lisa Dalby who is an anthropologist and who worked as a Geisha for a number of years for her graduate thesis. BUT Mineko Iwasaki, whom he names in the acknowledgements WITHOUT HER CONSENT said that what he wrote was not true for her and he basically lost a lawsuit for her. In order to fix her reputation, she published her own memoirs (real ones instead of a novel pretending) about her life in the geisha houses and she refutes the majority of what he wrote. There are other geisha memoirs, but these are outside of Kyoto, where Geisha were used more as sex workers, but it's inaccurate for the setting, and Golden's fixation on creating blue eyes and the odd fetishization often feels more like Madame Butterfly--i.e. white man getting his rocks off [if you read the book, BTW, it's basically no consent as the guy is 30 and she's 13. In order to justify the fetishization, the stage plays try to age up the girl... and John Long, BTW, was 30 when he wrote the book with a wife.... so ummm...], than it does at an attempt to really portray how the women felt, etc. which is more like Mineko Iwasaki's account. There's a lot that's problematic about Memoirs of a Geisha.
And Japan did produce a version of Iwasaki's book, which then failed to get notice because the first book really was about conflict and a white man getting his rocks off and a bunch of othering, but the second was slow, thoughtful, and reflective, which never does well with the mainstream US audience of the time. (And some publishers and movie-makers still think this is how to sell to a US audience, whose grown up with international media...)
You beat me to it. I actually read Geisha of Gion (Iwasaki-san's book) before Memoirs. Well worth the read and does highlight just how restrictive life was for her as a Meiko. It does infer she became known as she was the Geisha in the Suntory adverts (she was hired to give advice and then was asked to take the actual role, bit like also happened to R. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket) (screen shot of which is in the book).
I really appreciate your comment. I wish the historian had more research on geishas because there’s specific nuance to the role they hold in Japanese society and she seemed to mostly viewing them the lens of what she knows about pleasure houses.
She said several times that she didn't know as much about geishas but knows more about pleasure houses (I'm guessing because she's a s3x historian and geisha weren't required to give those services). She pointed out that they were very different and private and that geisha are trained artists in a restrictive setting vs pleasure houses were different outside of that particular area. There's a good documentary I watched recently based on the real Memoirs of a Geisha that goes into depth. It's short and on CZcams. Highly recommend. I think the historian would benefit from checking it out too. @@MrVevlet
Its accurate in most of the horrid customs though and stop being so insulting with "the White man" as if it was a devil. It isnt.
@@Alejojojo6 The imperialism aspect of the context, thus white man who didn't travel to Japan is relevant for discussion of both books. Because it would be a whole other context or discussion if the men were say Black, other types of Asian or Japanese. You need the contexts of imperialism for both contexts of Memoirs of a Geisha and Madame Butterfly to make sense. If you are insulted that one needs context to understand works and why the power differentials might be important, and the level of fetishization that might be inherent in doing so, then it sounds very much like you don't want to talk about imperialism, racism or sexism or any of the reasons why it's problematic to ignore these things. And believe me, there is plenty of racism involved when you're arguing a book about a literal barely a teenager having a baby from a 30 year old man is A-OK because she's Japanese and then making that symbolic for all of Japanese women and then later symbolic of all Asian women. The race aspect has to come in there at some time. It's fine... you can have your (general you) sex fantasies, or whatever. But when it impacts the framing of a whole population, then you have to talk about the race aspects as well and not veer away from it.
Marie Antoinette was famous for her charity to the poor and she even adopted an orphaned child and brought him up with the same privileges and education as her own children. When struggling farmers came to her to complain about the royals and nobles riding over and destroying their crops during the hunts she put a stop to it. When people died and were crushed to death is crowds come out to see her she and Louis both gave up a month of their allowances to pay compensation to the surviving families. Antoinette and her siblings were bought up by their strict mother to ally themselves with the poor and poor children were often invited to tea at court where Antoinette and he siblings had to serve them and treat them as equals. They wee also made to give up the hundreds of rich toys and gifts they were given on birthdays and Xmas, from which they were allowed to choose only one to keep. Also as Queen of France Marie was expected to set the fashions and promote French fabrics and dressmakers and hair styles and shoes etc. But she hated formal court dress and later designed he own simple muslin gowns with coloured ribbons to adorn them. She was then accused of being unbecoming and not suitably dressed for a queen......she couldn't win no matter what she did. She was accused of being too casual in her portraits and not queenly enough.....the people who knew her best, her servants etc adored her and said she was loving and kind and generous to a fault. In the movie we see she makes her spoiled daughter associate with poor people and have their children to tea. She tried to teach her humility as she herself had been taught.
Beautiful ❤
There's a story, and it may just be that, but there is some contextual evidence that fits. The palace whispers, and the games played with them, kind of pushed real concerns out. There was a wall between nobles and peasants.
The story goes that when Marie noticed her servants struggling she asked why. They wouldn't tell her so she pressed them. Eventually they admitted they were hungry. Everyone was hungry. Marie didn't know, no one dared tell her or the king real problems until this. She took the girl by the hand and led everyone to wherever the food was kept and ordered wagons loaded. They were sent but it was too late. One version says the wagons made it but no one cared because it wasn't nearly enough, the other says the wagon train was robbed before it ever reached Paris. If I had to guess I'd say a little of both. If people in the countryside got to it on the way in then even a huge supply couldve been greatly diminished.
There are some accounts of this shipment, but very few and fragmentary. It was criminal to speak well of the royals during the revolution. Most texts that supported the king and queen or may have even just been neutral were put to the flame.
So the story could be propaganda from the time, reactionary propaganda during the revolution or straight up forgery. Hard to say at this point. But there seems to be some good body of evidence that she was pretty normal and maybe even decent. I can say with surety she was no monster. And no one could survive in that court that was truly thoughtless. Even in the worst sorts of games charity can be a key part of a winning strategy. You have to make friends and keep them at court. Somehow, despite seeming to be universally hated, Marie did that for a decade. So clearly something is missing. Her enemies told us who she was and we believed them. We kinda had to. They cut off everybody's head before history could get to them to ask what went down.
It's funny. The revolution said she was disconnected from the real world, but they were fighting an enemy they had all but imagined. She was just as stuck there as anyone that killed her. A golden cage is still a cage. Beautiful chains still bind. I'd have bathed in champagne too. Twice as much if I knew they'd kill me either way and make up a reason later when the bloodlust lifted.
The revolution wasn't wrong in principle, life was worse than terrible. But no amount of piled up heads puts food on anyone's table. I'm sure the killing felt good, they wrote as much, but they also wrote of how it wasn't solving the problem.
Makes me think killing people at all mightve been where the wheels actually came off. Maybe a bad call in general.
And if nobody liked the king and queen then who were those like, 120,000 people that got the chop? Would've loved to hear their opinions. Maybe some of them had personal reasons and stories. Maybe all of them did. We'll never know because they were too busy clogging the seine with those stories.
@@pudgeboyardee32Well said, I enjoyed your post a lot.
she also tried to escape, join her brother in Austria, asked him to lend them his army so that they could re-establish an absolute monarchy. She had to go.
@@AnzuBrief Go how..?
I'm sad she didn't comment on Meg's speach to Jo, it was one of my favorite moments, and I think it's amazing to show how each sister had different but equally important dream's.
Hard agree. I relate to Meg so much, and I think it’s such an important part of feminism to highlight. Feminism isn’t about saying every woman should be a career-driven, independent, powerhouse queen. It’s that women should have the choice. And being a loving housewife/SAHM is just as valid as a working woman, as long as it’s HER choice.
@emmygoldman1065 Especially since being a full time caregiver is work in itself.
My mother was born in 1943 and trained as a nurse. One of her fellow trainees got married while she was still a student and had to drop out. My mother’s sister (born in 39) worked for a bank and also had to leave when she got married. It blows my mind that this topic is so close to home for me . 🇦🇺
When I first started working in 1975, some of the other women (maybe 10-15 years older than me) told me that as women they were “allowed” to continue working when they got married, but HAD to quit working when they became pregnant. One of my friends who had a deadbeat husband told me that she had to hide her pregnancy as long as she could (like 6 or 7 months) because she needed her wages to survive. So as long as the bosses didn’t notice her showing she could continue to work. This would have been in the mid-1960s. Also no maternity leave available because you weren’t “allowed” to come back to work because you were now a mother and therefore your job was at home caring for your child. Whether or not you had a deadbeat husband who refused to work or not! No way to support your family except welfare with all its stigma and resulting poverty. Disgusting difficult times for women! I personally thank god for feminism and the changes that it made in so many lives and families!
Although with sexism still firmly entrenched, I wonder if things will ever get better.
@@judycroteau482 Which country because I can think of several relatives who were married WITH CHILDREN and who also worked - so did their husbands. They didn't need to but they also refused to waste their education and continued to work all through their children's childhood. This was in the 50s and 60s in England.
@@ABC1701A I live in Canada. And I am so glad that this changed by the 1970s when I started working. However maternity leave was only for 6 weeks at the time, which is wildly insufficient. Later it became 12 months leave. I am not sure what is available now.
The reason al the characters get married in Little Women is because that was the only way she could sell the book. She was supporting her family. Tough choice.
Whew. One forgets what an amazing screen presence Florence Pugh has. TNT behind those eyes.
In Little Women, Joe wasn’t meant to get married but Louisa May Alcott couldn’t get it published unless she included a husband for Joe.
Yup. Jo is Louisa
I love that you made the point about catching the little snatches about conversation! As a film theorist, I always point out that that the reason there's so much overheard dialogue is because you're supposed to identify with Marie Antoinette and the way people are whispering about her and her isolation and feeling the walls closing in around her, and people are always like, "I think it's just a bad movie."
Super nice surprise to see Kate Lister here! She has a podcast called Betwixt the Sheets where she talks more in depth about historical sex and intimacy! She definitely knows her shit and she clearly enjoys her job which makes for great content
One reason the whole 'accrewing of debt' thing seems so unfair is that, when the girl finally went out to earn, a portion of what was paid went to the house and another portion to 'her'. Then straight back to the house to pay her ever increasing debt. So the house pays nothing, in real terms, for her. Nothing, in real terms, to feed and lodge and clothe her for her childhood. Nothing, in real terms, for her work outfits - she rents them off the house. The house owns them. But they get paid the huge proportion of what is paid for her services.
Japan is still wacky today. A collective culture that seems all pleasant to foreigners that visit. Internally, it's got social issues that would make your head spin. Having said that, I loved living there as a kid. I thought it was super mystical at the time. I could bike everywhere, so I'm not hating on Japan by acknowledging that it's just not perfect there like so many Japan nutters initially believe, or pretend to believe. But, it is a great place to visit.
I hate it when people point out that Marie Antoinette bathed in milk and strawberries while the people were starving. What was she to do? Her husband and her advisors were supposed to lead the country. She was supposed to do as she's told, because her real role was to be a baby machine. She was conditioned to trust that the men and elders in her life had it all figured out, while she just had the little bird brain of a maiden. Somehow, at her young age, she was supposed to see through all that and save the people using the milk provided to her by the palace? It really gets to me. She was a victim of patriarchy, just like the people were.
I understand the rage of the peasant class but Marie was really a victim of circumstance. Her husband and his advisors, and those that came before them, let her down as well as the rest of France.
Dont infantilize a woman that by the time of her death was fully grown and an advisor to her own husband.
She was also married off, sent away from her home and her family, when she was just 14. Still just a child, as was her husband at just 15. Not that she was the youngest "bride" at the time... and at least her husband was her contemporary in terms of age... but viewed in modern terms, and understanding, they were children when they were forced into marriage with strangers.
hey, i don't think people want to diffamate her that much when he already was, and lots of times probably falsly.@@saraangel6696
her husband wasnt meant to rule either, he wanted to work on clocks, all he did was hunt and his advisors didnt tell him about the plp's bad situation@@emilyb.8219
29:00 It may just have been performance anxiety. Louis was, by all accounts, shy, rather awkward, and not particularly bright. Marie-Antoinette was considered pretty and quite vivacious. And they were both teenagers when they got married. Try to imagine telling the shiest, most awkward boy in school that he has to take the captain of the cheer squad to the prom.
That's not how that played out. She wasn't Captain Torrance
I love Kate, she's such a big inspiration to me, I'm a huge fan of hers. Also, isn't she stunning? She's always so positive and complimentary of other women so just want to say to her as well I think she's radiant. She has such a presence on screen and so much knowledge-- I think she should be in more history videos! 😀
Totally agree. Dr. Lister is the shit!
I've only ever listened to her, never seen her before this, she's such a beautiful woman inside and out!
She’s the nicest and warmest host on her podcast, a great sense of humour but never snarky “punching down”
Except Louis 16th DID massively cut down on spending. He seriously tried a lot to impact the court spending. The fuel behind her downfall & a lot of the revolution was Phillip D'Orleans mechanations and control of the people's starvation.
@adriannespring8598 -- Yes! Philippe 'd Orleans did his utmost to sabotage King Louis XVI. In addition, Louis' advisors told him to support the American Revolution, as that would weaken Great Britain, the traditional enemy of France. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing, which *never* ends well. Great Britain survived the American Revolution, but France was bankrupted.
Do you have links/references on this?
If anyone ever visits Versailles, pay the extra fee to tour the Queen's Hamlet. It was a real working peasant village where Marie Antoinette used to pretend to be a peasant and get away from court life. It is fascinating and I can see why the revolutionaries were so mad when they found it.
Or where she taught her children to grow food, and understand rural life, and live a simpler and less political existence. I actually have a lot of respect for her and what she tried to do in taking her children away from the court, even if it was through the lens of the understanding of a person of privilege.
Yeah it seems like she had good intentions with the sort of misguided privilege blinders a person of her station would inevitably have
24:30 Just to toss in, this also derived from how Louis XIV ran his court. He lived his entire life in public, believing that as King he had to be visible at all possible times. From the moment he woke up he was in view of the Court - even his morning toilet! - and the only time he had the slightest privacy was in his bed, behind a veil. And even then, some courtiers could enter the royal bedroom.
So obviously his successors were expected to behave similarly, which would have made Marie Antoinette's marital issues even more public and embarrassing. I don't believe Louis XVI was *as* public as his grandfather, but the expectation was there.
(People often focus on the excesses of "The Sun King" and how he started the dominoes toppling which led to revolution, and fair enough. But I've long thought THAT is such an interesting aspect of him. I'd honestly love to see a movie focusing on Louis XIV as a person and the mental stresses of living such a life. It would even be relevant today, with so many on social media seemingly seeking that same lifestyle.)
This whole thing just goes to show you how powerful childhood trauma can be, especially when it happens to a powerful person. The whole setup of Versailles, that did help lead to the Revolution, was created to keep the nobles so busy attending on the king that they had no time for plots and rebellion, because Louis XIV had lived through the Frond as a child and vowed he would do anything and spend whatever it took to never be in that position again.
These movie/history comparisons are so interesting - and fun.
Thank you very much for a nuanced and detailed video. Might I add two wee points? First, Marie Antoinette's expenditures were *not* what destroyed the French economy -- it was financial support for the American Revolution that economically torpedoed France. Second, American biographer Nancy Goldstone suggests that Louis XVI showed many, many behaviours consistent with someone on the Autism Spectrum. Avoidance of physical touch and intimacy; a dislike of crowds/commotion; a "Rain Man" like passion for statistics; a tendency to shut down emotionally in moments of stress -- all of these behaviours point to Louis' difficulties with life at Versailles & cohabitation with his wife. His brother-in-law had to explain the sex act to Louis, and with that help, the French king was *finally* able to impregnate his wife. Marie Antoinette had to cope with an impossible challenge, as the King of France called all the shots & made all of the decisions until the French populace revolted. Yet although *Louis* had all of the Power, *Marie Antoinette* was blamed for every folly her husband committed....
Thank you for doing this video Kate!!
Dr. Kate Lister, I just love your take on these and how much perspective it gives, especially to those who have been ignorant of it such as rowdy American males like me 🤣 Generally, I love learning about other cultures and how their societies were like across different eras and I wish more would take a look at these as it's part of the human experience even though the details of the lives of royalty are experiences that most of us will never have, they still had very human problems that did not go away because they were royalty or of higher class. In some cases, certain problems were made worse by royal upbringings so again, just love how you break it down. 🥰
The part about the Geisha education reminds me a lot of modern K-Pop/J-Pop agency training. I wonder whether the "flower boy" concept also might have some of its roots in the Kabuki theatre environment (entertainment = exposition) or at least fueled it.
Loved, loved, loved hearing about the women's challenges through the len of the movies I have watched. I have never TRULY understood the deep struggles of being a woman until it was described here. Thank you.
A very informative and delightful commentary on histprical roles of women, I thoroughly enjoyed that
Big fan of Kate! Betwixt the Sheets is one of my fav podcasts.
I enjoyed your review and commentary so much. Thank you.
Reflections from the Amy March section: "Sylvia Miles", by Mary Taylor, friend to Charlotte Bronte, is all about women working, women's difficult opportunities for working during the mid 1800s, and what work means to women. Mary once said that "a woman who works is, by that alone, worth more than a woman who doesn't." She was from a large family of mostly boys. Once well-to-do, the family fell on hard times and Mary had to be educated and primed for a job, just like the Bronte sisters; like them, she originally chose teaching, but became quickly disgusted with the return on investment, and chose to emigrated to New Zealand. There, she began her own business in a sort of import/export store. The business remained for a while after she returned to England and the building itself stood until, I think, the 1960s.. Her life is fascinating, and Mary, who could be exasperating as well as inspirational, had many adventures. Mary and the Brontes were about twenty years older than the Alcott siblings, and it's interesting to see how all these women viewed, handled, and obtained employment during a time when it was difficult for a woman to succeed.
What a fantastic, well-researched perspective. I love trying to understand history vicariously. Thank you!
Louie didnt' have phimosis. He was just very shy and awkward and intimidated by his beautiful graceful young wife while her was very fat and clumsy. He felt humiliated dancing with this delicate graceful creature. He also had no ex education and neither did she. Neither of them knew what to do.....until her brother came to visit and he explained the mechanics of it to the then young prince who was only 15 when he married 14 year old Antoinette. After these lessons he finally got it right and Antoinette got pregnant.
So you did see his 🐓?!
It was reported in an in depth biography by historian/writer Antonia Fraser. She does much more in depth research than others do and digs out the real stories behind the gossip and scandal. @@hal90001
She is right,he was examined by a doctor. There was nothing physically wrong,and he did get his wife pregnant 5 times.
It would have been helpful if you had cited the source of the information that Louis did not have the medical condition 'phimosis', rather than just stating your own opinion.
@@pheart2381 Please cite your source of information concerning the diagnosis of Louis.
Love the video. It would nice to see her do The Color Purple.
Thanks. I enjoy the movie reviews with historical fact checks 💯
😁
“lord byron is not someone who should be talking about poverty” 2 minutes in and dr. lister is already an icon
This is so refreshing. It is so nice to hear someone talk about the issues within their context instead of blanket labeling everything as evil and wrong. I'm pretty much the only historian in my friend group, and it is so miserable trying to talk about politics in history and just getting lambasted.
Thumbnails of Dr Lister on this channel makes me utter an involuntary “HELL F*CKIN’ YEAH! YES!” followed by an immediate click.
Yes I'm so happy about it
Really love this historians view on these times, the way she frames it for us, love that! She articulates very well for what she’s talking about.
In the book "Memoires of a geisha" the father sold his daughters in good will, after their mother died and to save them from dying of hunger. They were actually kidnapped from him, under false pretences.
Thank you Kate, I really enjoyed your witty, intelligent commentary and insights. I am also really enjoying your book "Curious History of Sex", a wonderful history of naughtiness!!
I recently read "Geisha, A Life", written by Mineko Iwasaki (with Rande Brown). Ms. Iwasaki is whom "Memoirs of a Geisha" was written about. She was very upset and angry that the author of "Memoirs" misrepresented her life story, and that he published her name. One misrepresentation is that she and her sister were sold, and her sister wasn't sent to a brothel; that isn't true. Anyone interested in the true story should read "Geisha, A Life"; it is very good. That's not to say that some women weren't sold to brothels, and it's not dismissing the suffering of that kind of life; just saying that "Memoirs" is not an accurate representation of Ms. Iwasaki's life.
I lived in Kyoto for several years and the community there is still very closed off and incredibly strict in Gion to some extent. Like Geiko san and Maiko san aren’t allowed on some streets and stuff. It’s so interesting though seeing them perform as well. They do music and dance and acting and tea ceremony (probably more idk but that’s what I’ve seen). I’d no doubt believe that there are rivalries though from a human perspective lol. I’ve also heard men say that Kyoto women are a bit 2 faced so there’s also that
Kyoto is really interesting as a city historically. Theres a Japanese CZcamsr who discusses his culture and history and he explained that historically, especially when it was the capital, everyone had to learn to be indirect and “two faced” as a matter of survival. Because transgressions could get you shunned or executed and what not. It influences the culture to this day
Would love to hear her thoughts on so many films!!! One that comes to mind is the 90s movie Dangerous Beauty, which is a fun movie, based on the story of the courtesan and poet Veronica Franco.
As it goes, I DID watch, but I have not seen any of the films. The one (can't remember it's name) with Emma Thompson and Anthony Hopkins looks good though. "Upstairs Downstairs With Nur Jurks" it's probably called in Hull. Seriously though this does excite a bit of Curiosity. Nice one Prof Kate and team! ⭐👍
Love this woman, so compelled by her insight and delivery.
I love these!
Successful marriage is an economy-social necessity ....a wonderful historical coverage video and conversation about women... as wife ,sex workers, and ordinary workers
Okay she’s a historian or whatever but her film analyses are spot on damn
I read the book to Geisha, and one of the things I noticed is that, really, Hatsumomo was slightly nuts the whole time she's part of the story, but then Chio and her mentor really pushed her over the edge to get her out of the way as far as competition.
ELEANOR OF AQUITAINE BIO IS FASCINATING!!! SHE WAS WAY AHEAD OF HER TIME, VERY POWERFUL, MOTHER OF THREE KINGS!!!👌👌👍👍❤❤👍👍👍
Which movie?
I could listen to her speak about the Geisha and the Japanese pleasure houses for hours on end, would love to hear more from her!
She has a podcast calld betwixt the sheets that covers topics similar
28:00 I'm so torn about Marie Antoinette. She's a brilliant example of how a group of people can fit a stereotype while the individuals in that group don't. It seems like a lot of the vitriol she experienced was more about people being angry at her class and needing a face to pin it on (and choosing the woman who already has some scandal is the low-hanging fruit). She spent a lot of her time (and a ton of money) on various charities, including setting up a home for single mothers on the palace grounds. She put cottages on her farm and moved several peasant families onto them, she put children through school (even adopted 3 of them), and had food distributed from the palace daily. At one point she and Louis sold off their flatware to buy grain to be distributed. I think it's likely true that they had a fairly warped perspective of what was going on around them, but I think it was more a product of the fact that they had only really ever known opulence, and people tend to view the world from the perspectives they're most familiar with.
Dr. Kate Lister is simply the BEST!!
I'm addicted to her brilliant podcast (Betwixt the Sheets)
More Dr. Kate Lister please! She is fantastic 💙
What an incredibly knowledgeable and PERSONAL perspective from and amazingly passionate and brilliant expert.
This woman did an amazing job. Please more of her.
I cried after the "im so lonely scene" in little women, ive had moments where i asked myself if i would sacrifice my integrity to be loved but in order to do that i would have to be someone else. Its just not sustainable long term for a relationship, at least not today but damn its so tempting to fall into that. i still havent figured out the solution to that yet.
Could she say phrase about cake?
Recently, a minister of our third world country, answering to journalist’s question about why there was a shortage of sugar in grocery stores, said a brilliant thing: Sugar is harmful. These poor people shoul like me eat honey.
She never said it. The woman who did was a former princess related to Louis side of the family and it was a hundred years before these events.
Do we really need to practice social/cultural relativism for selling a child into sexual slavery? I feel like we can come from a place of understanding things were different while still acknowledging that it is absolutely horrific regardless of time period or culture.
I understand this POV, but the reality of history was that whether young girls became wives or sex workers, they did not have bodily autonomy in sexual matters. It is important for historians to relay the experience of living in those times without being judgmental.
@@billyb7852 Does your family ancestry have a lot of pedophiles marrying little girls that you want think of as okay at the time? Is that it? How about *NO* It's disgusting no matter the time period. They did not have bodily autonomy you say? Piff. The reality of history, you say? What other bullshit excuses?
REMAINS OF THE DAY AND LANDS END WERE BOTH EXCELLENT!!👍👍👍👍👍👍❤❤❤❤❤
Highly recommend Dr Kate’s podcast betwixt the sheets!
Willy waving....is my new favorite phrase!
I was watching The Secret Life of Marie Antoinette a few years back and they said on there that both Louis and Marie didn't know how to do it so her bother had to come over from Austria and tell them both what's involved.
Jeez, I love this woman! What an absolute star she is!
Love Kate, her podcast is the best, too. I have learned so many fun and weird little bits from her!
Omg what’s the name of the podcast! I’d love to hear more from her!
@@beludrugueri7776 Betwixt the Sheets
@@beludrugueri7776betwixt the sheets
Sorry, totally missed your comment. Podcast is Betwixt the Sheets@@beludrugueri7776
Ok Memoirs of a Geisha....
THAT MAN IS NOT THEIR FATHER. he's the broker who bought them from their parents and who brings them to the Geisha houses.
they were sold by the family in first instance so I don't think it makes much difference
I’d watch anything by Dr. Kate Lister! She’s amazing.
When the queen sees the baby and the happy parents, then hearing the japes from people in the hallway, and finally when she just breaks down crying in her room. Man i cant help but have sympathy and feel compassion for her
LOVE this series and especially love her!
I adore the feckin Hell out of that brilliant woman. ❤️ I love Kate‘s wonderful podcast and basically everything she’s involved in. The combines fun and education. It’s lovely.
I love Florence's voice in this speech.
love dr. kate and loooooove memoirs of a geisha. (the book first, movie second)
I did just watch this movie last night, and honestly just found this channel, but if you haven't done Three Thousand Years of Longing yet, I would be very interested on your take of this movie. Like, even just a comment. I really think I need to go watch it again
Pls do more videos on the topic it was fantastic!
I don't know if it's already been pointed out, but in Memories of a Geisha, it's not the father selling his daughters in this scene. The father stays at their little "tipsy house", as Chiyo refers to it as, and a man takes the sisters and then sells Satsu to a pleasure house and Chiyo to a Geisha house.
Well on balance I prefer not to watch films, as we know there's a high statistical likelyhood that the thing will be bollocks, and if so then a bit of £ plus a 1.5hr slice of valuable time will have been wasted, I'd rather have a pizza and a couple of glasses of wine with friends, and then watch a vid featuring the excellent and lovely Prof Lister once home again.. Looking forward to seeing this! ⭐👍
The saddest and most despicable thing that the French revolutionaries said about Marie Antoinette was that she sexually abused her own son and they even forced him to “testify” to this after they’d abused him in prison and withheld food from him.
Memoirs of a Geisha definitely didn't tell an entirely accurate story - some things were, like girls being sold to geisha houses, but like she says the line between Geisha and sex worker was a times blurred, ESPECIALLY in the time periods where girls being sold to the houses was very common - and another inaccuracy was how permanent it was. A lot of the time, they'd work off that debt, earn a little money and then go home and get married! Japan historically didn't have the same extreme purity culture that we tend to associate with the West, or even with China. A former geisha, or even a former sex worker, could retire and marry without anyone really batting an eye.
One thing that always annoyed me in the script is that "You think a Geisha is free to love?" line that wasn't shown in this video - yeah, they actually were, it was one of the perks of being a Geisha! They could have lovers, or be a kept mistress, or have patrons that got some extra service - they had those options, and as long as it didn't interfere with the main business of the house nobody really cared. They absolutely weren't expected to be chaste, and in a higher-end house that distanced itself more from the sex work elements of the business also didn't necessarily have to take clients as lovers. That's part of what made Geisha so appealling - the idea that they were particularly sexually empowered was part of their allure.
Begging this channel to hire new audio folks. (Both mixing and live micing.)
Louisa May Alcott actually didnt want Joe to get married at the end of the book. The publisher made her change it.
I am such a fan of Kate lister... Now i see her beautiful face. And not just her voice . ❤❤❤❤
What she described as the debt women had to pay back to the brothel does very much exist in Indian brothels today, a real sad reality
Not all the sisters got married. Beth died before we even learned if she wanted to get married (despite being secretly in love with Laurie in the book) and if you read Little Men, you learn more about the sisters.
Geisha and yūjo were two different trades. A tea house might employ both but the geisha was an entertainer, a hostess, she would dance, sing, play an instrument, gently flirt and make conversation with the men who came to the tea house. Yujo were prostitutes whose business was the sex trade.
I’m a woman and I make twice as much as my husband. I’m very aware that this is a privilege the women that came before me didn’t have. And to be honest I love the autonomy. I’m more comfortable in this role than I am in the traditional housewife role. But man is it hard. There’s so much pressure to provide, AND nurture. Leaving my newborns to go back to work is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It felt wrong. But so did staying home. At the same time, I see the wives of the men I work with and sometimes feel jealous that all their time is for their kids. But I know I wouldn’t feel safe or comfortable being financially dependent on anyone but myself. My only consolation is knowing my husband does a better job at home than I would. So things are the way they should be I guess.
Louisa May Alcott based her characters on her real sisters. The real Amy did get married, though not until she was in her late 30s, then she died from complications from childbirth about a year later. I can see why Louisa wanted Amy to marry Laurie and live happily ever after.
To be fair, she absolutely did NOT want Jo to get married, but her publisher insisted. Louisa herself never married.
She died broke If I remember correctly..
The term oiran is saved for sex workers. Maiko was a geisha in training as well and they dressed slightly different.
I'm uncertain why a person who appears to know little about the life of Geishas should review a film about Geishas.
Some mortgage companies up until the 1990’s required a man to co-sign a mortgage loan for women until Bill Clinton signed into law a bill that abolished that practice.💙💙💙
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Very informative
Florence is beautiful inside and out. Says me.
Love Dr. Kate!
I love this combination of Dr. Lister being a knowledgeable historian and not speaking King's English. I could listen to her for hours.