Dangers of Non-Duality - Jim Newman, Simply This DSci Pod 188
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2024
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Jim Newman is a Non-Duality non-teacher who meets the paradox of living by offering the idea that there is nothing at all at his CZcams channel,@JimNewman01. This is one of the most perplexing conversations we've ever had on the podcast, and is somewhere between a dadaist art piece, an Andy Kaufman performance, and an Andy Warhol show. It is best to sit back, allow it to wash over you, and to embrace for a moment that there is no there, there.
00:00:00 Go!
00:00:17 What is non-duality
00:08:47 All yearning is for the end of experience
00:15:41 Pain in non-understanding
00:21:29 Is non-duality disempowering?
00:33:15 The sense of things being done
00:44:36 Is non-duality useful or harmful?
00:52:58 Do you believe in the world?
01:02:29 Cats as Zen masters & explusion from Eden
01:06:33 Apparent v. real
01:15:55 Individuals as unreal
01:29:19 Increasing worldly discontent
01:34:57 Century of the Self
01:42:00 Reason to make the world better or worse
01:52:47 A sci-fi virus that ruled humanity
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PODCAST INFO: Anastasia completed her PhD studying bioelectricity at Columbia University. When not talking to brilliant people or making movies, she spends her time painting, reading, and guiding backcountry excursions. Shilo also did his PhD at Columbia studying the elastic properties of molecular water. When he's not in the film studio, he's exploring sound in music. They are both freelance professors at various universities.
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Great work this man has a great perspective it will take time to digest
This is exactly what Paul described I live but not me but god that lives within me
hi, how do you know your cat doesnt think about food for tomorow, and why?
because a wild cat does know i believe, small prey big pray
when we are talking about cats and dogs, does the dog think about tomorow?
besides toys and bones ive never heard of a story where a dog burries food
and later on comes back to eat it, like a squirel does.
in the spiritual dog cat comparisson, i agree that the cat lives in the moment
and the dog for the tomorow, but that doesnt mean that all animals in
nature percieve it that way you said you thought it to be.
some birds are very smart, some sea manimals also, you cant prove to me
that some animals dont understand about tomorow or the day after🙂
untill a few years ago everything was instinct in animals, no we see it
a little different...
so to the cat everything just happens naturally and it knows what to do
naturally/instinctively?
exactly dude (host) this whole thing is about values👍
values and the norm (the co understanding of the group and what is allowed).👍
what are we missing? the void, religious people say its God, and yes drugs or any adiction
even work can fill that space but never completely full it, this a very old concept and
is written about all 3 mayor religions👍
yeah the dog (person) doesnt like to do new things they are scared, the cat (person)
likes new things and the exploring of...
this is nothing new i have been saying this for 2 years on the darkhorse podcast
and a few other streams... also on twi tt er.
his stance at 1:42:00 and going is so nihilist, everything doesnt matter, tell it to
person who is suffering by the hand of another, then tell them its your perception
and it might look that way to you...🙂 lack of empathy and understanding.
the cat lives more solo and by experiance so chooses what it wants to do for
themselves, where the dog is more group structured and and follows what is
already out there/acts acording to the norm no matter how inhumane, and with
the cat it depends more on the individual and way less about norm.
so the cat acts like i believe this, i want it so im doing it, no matter what you all think,
where the dog is way more careful and acts more out of what others think and
about his place in the group.
again with the its just happening... its all consiousness and there are different
levels., he is just trying to sell his vie and or himself.
i mean like a true dogperson he is telling us how we should see him, not just by
saying but also by acting it, playing a certain rol of how he wants to be perceived
by others, which is what the dogperson does.
i like how you are speaking about the i like its a new thing, but people including
me been speaking about ths for years.
Paul van der Klay, secret sacret self and my whole theory is about this,
the psychopath/narcisist and empath theory/ the catperson and dogperson
theory, dr Peterson also about contiouness and suffering and a few more.
you do understand by my theory you are more of a dogperson👍
what is meaning, what gives meanig... value(s)🙂
so the norm and people conforming to it, genotype fenotype, nature versus
nurture, this is nothing new🙂
then he said it doent matter because of the separate reality🙂 yeah the one
who doesnt have empathy doesnt see it in or for the other, while the other
expects it (empathy) from the one🙂
and norms change... the ubermensch?
now he explained perfectly the problem of today, lets go there.
the lies, with the possibility of that you cant know what the other is like he can
keep up the facade of that which you cant know.
if he is honest and not a scared little dogperson he could tell us about his real
beliefs and intententions, but because of the groupnorm he believes that like
himself others are not honest and when he speaks out he will get attacked like
the others in the group according to the normand his place in the hierarchy.
he can only start making these claims when he aquires alpha or alpha like status
he thinks, so carefully considering the norm and their position in the group, so
what can i say or do that gives me a certain type of attention?
again "everyone is doing it and saying it is good",🙂🙂 again this is his lack
of understanding, his lack of empathy, he doesnt know this, he hasnt learned
this which makes him a dogperson.
1:51:48 here he shows he doesnt understand the proces within himself, it just
happens🙂
so he does understand but not in himself🙂nice
i strongly disagree with his message can debate him and win on every
argument.
"there is simply that which cant be knowen apearing as everything", you are
literally saying nothing, but you are discribing your view as a scared lil dog
person🙂 everything i dont understand is scary, that is what it looks like to me.
the cat person thinks heay something new let me explore and see what it is?
so the God of the gap is everything, is that what you are saying?
because that is what liars and manipulators do, my theory explains this all
and im doing it right here right now using my theory.
i dont know what he means with separation, can be the continiuos duality
or "the void", uses adam and eve but then he said that it al doesnt matter🙂
like we dont have any infuence and that in the end it doesnt matter... even
buddist believe that it matters🙂
no individual that can be responsible? 🙂
what is the want, disires? this is also a part of religion🙂
yeah the grouppressure/its bigger than me as an individual i should conform
(till i secured my position) like a dog in a pack.
1:58:33 perfectly nihilistic again, where my theory explaines it perfectly, the
lack of understanding and empathy.
ow yes we can get a little deeper than this but not with this imposter🙂
ps, why do you both close your eyes while listening or thinking?🙂
and i value my theories and and ideas way to much to let them be butchered
like this and these types of individuals with this type of behaviour.
he is not worthy... yet🙂
the narcisit/psychopath and empath theory/the catperson and dogperson
theory includes a part about the self and the self in a group/norm that i try
to explain with an easy formula created by me/noticed by me.
20-60-20.
20% is pro and willing to do some thing about it, 60% is neutral, the norm or majority,
and 20% is against and willing to do something about it.
in the individual 20% is pro, 60% is what you already are, and 20% against.
depending on what choice you make you and peoles perception of you change.
when people start to follow your changes you have changed the norm.
Paul van der Klay describes it perfectly with the secret sacret self and with
the arenas concept.
this will keep on happening and is a part of life, we think differently about different
subject in different stages (i mean with age) in our life, and this varies per person.
ive also created and shared KABE=W, knowledge aquired by experiance = wisdom.
👍
Well done.
Love how Jim doesn't care when someone waits for an elaborate answer
I love that Jim is completely unapologetic. He refuses to water down his "message" (for lack of a better word) to make it palatable to anyone. Like, this is what he has to say, take it or leave it. It can be frustrating, even infuriating at times, but he gives no apologies for it nor adjusts it to be more comfortable for the individual.
The closest I've come to hearing that is his conversation with Sam Harris where he does, for a few moments, talk about the apparent story of the apparent Jim
What’s an indivi-dual?;-)
@@nagatom Seemingly ;)
@@nagatom Thanks for referring to a conversation with Sam Harris. I'm a subscriber to his Waking Up App, and I'll definitely tune in.
❤@@nagatom
"For there to be an answer to 'Why?' there would have to be a meaning." is one of my fave Jim-quotes!
the place Jim is speaking from, (even tho there is no seperate place) is so impossible to even describe much less debate or converse or teach. It does change life and offers a freedome that is beyond words. I sit with the trees and get the same messages and under-standing and dis-covery. Great show and the most important conversation ever.
So important!! 😂❤🎉
I love Jim, his simple and uncompromising message
As Jim suggests, the end of separation is death (of the belief that there’s a self) but the big problem people have with ND is that they want to end separation and for the self to see it happen.
@@gil902 Yeah, there's just a belief that the apparent separation is an actual separation..
Right. People think he is saying that there is nothing you can do when what he is actually saying is that there is no *you* to do or not do and there never has been. There's a big difference between those.
If any “yous” think there is something in this for them, they will be sorely disappointed.
@neilcreamer8207 they want to separate the self and want the self to see it😂
Every Jim Newman Interview is a banger, especially when the Interviewer dont know his Message 😂
It’s always amusing to watch Jim at play.
❤
He is very kind
When it’s a paradox there is no hypocrisy
He sounds like one hand clapping. 🙃
@@rabbitholehomes what you mean ? Haha what?
Great conversation, the main problem is that people are trying to understand Non-Duality with the Mind. but it is beyond mind.
I was waiting for someone to say this. The moment we "discuss" non duality it becomes an intellectualized construct. If there isn't a way to understand it, only experience it, why would we ever spend time/attention/focus talking about it? I suspect a better use of our physical/energetic body within space and time is to focus on the frequency we hold. Since we are all energetic beings magnetizing possibilities and potentials through the vibration we carry--and the frequency of love is the frequency of the "all that"-- we have the potential to experience non duality without ever understanding it, simply by aligning ourselves with the "all that". Ultimately, free will doesn't actually exist because as energy, we are magnetizing energy to us through the vibration we carry whether we know it or not. Only when something has been magnetized to us do we then sense it in our awareness as "choice." If we want to slide into non duality, we simply align with it through the vibration that we hold and that frequency is love. Focus your frequency on love. Be love. Lose your mind to love and experience the unified consciousness that is that.
Nonduality, and particularly Jim Newman messaging it, is not what most people want to hear. He made it painfully clear over and over that no-one is there no-one ever does anything, there's only what is and what is isn't a thing, but appears to give rise to everything! And still the guy ends by saying he's happy improving himself and the world. They did not or did not want to get it. Poor Jim. It's a blessing he's not there to suffer😂
Painfully clear, well said, there is such a denial of THIS, the simpleness of what is. The mind is a distraction in and of itself. It will use concepts, stories, ideas, to unconsciously distract from the simpleness of now. Even that is perfect, perfect just the way it is collectively. Seek and never find...This has been the pattern for thousands of years, seemingly
The message is so simple!
There’s no free will
There’s no individual
There’s no separation!
☯👍😁 Jim is the best!
But there is the illusion of these things that needs to be overcome.
@@elonever.2.071 No. nothing needs to be overcome. The illusion is neither good or bad! ☯😁
@@advaitawho
I am not saying the illusion is good or bad. We have a choice to be rote and an NPC in someone else's version of the illusion or we can be authentic, understand our self at a deep level, knowing what activates our Ego and the emotional responses that go along with that or we can take a step back and be the observer in situations. I agree that we are all connected spiritually. But we are still having an individual experience and we can still have a limited level of free will within the confines of the limits of the illusion.
@@elonever.2.071 I never said anything about spirituality! Spirituality is just a story! Stories are not real, they are fictional. The individual experience is also a story! Give Jim Newman a try. You may enjoy radical non duality! ☯😁
@@advaitawho Even "radical non-duality" is just an idea. Mind is always framing and conceptualizing things. Everything is an object to be framed. It's completely instinctual and unavoidable. "Non-duality" is actually impossible to experience because of this. Which is why it's just an idea. A truly non-dual "experience" implies the subject-object division in consciousness has collapsed which would mean there's no longer a mind to separate itself out and frame and label anything and therefore no one to know that they're having a non-dual experience in the first place. So, when Jim says that "nobody gets this" like, literally nobody _can_ . There's no entity that will ever know what this is. It's absolutely impossible. That's why everyone and everything is already there and there's no such thing as a person becoming enlightened or whatever and why you're simple, un-enlightened feeling self is all there is. Unenlightenment _IS_ already enlightenment.
It's not just some tricky koan. Enlightenment really actually doesn't exist. At all. You, as your completely unenlightened self, feeling unenlightened, thinking that there's something to get, something to attain, even the kind of realization where you realize that there's nothing to realize, that there's nothing to get or attain, _is_ already that.
Please have Jim on again. ❤😮These two people were not confrontational. They were willing to keep asking questions even though Jim gave them the answer several times. Watched spellbound here. Y’all rock!
it was an apparent difficult conversation lol
I could see why there was such a confusion.
Both of them wanted to take a position, learn more about it and they tried hard to wrap their heads around it.
But Jim wouldnt give them anything, because the message has nothing to give. Its irritating if you are looking for some concept that's mind-blowing. Its not.
@@_SoundByte_ this his very selfish view, it is the same as him saying he is god, every stance he takes is just that👍
the stance of a person who believes they are god, the i and the me, without me there is nothing and there is nothing outside of my concept/perception of reality👍 also non duality is wokeness, anyone who disagrees feel free to reply
@@swerremdjee2769👍🏻
@@swerremdjee2769I didn’t hear him speak ;-)
‘You’ identifying as a ‘scientist’ IS what separation is. You’re SO in your head about everything Jim is attempting to verbalize, it’s simply not possible for you to ‘get it’, in the way that your amazing huge ego wants to🙏❤
43 minutes in and my experience is that it gets so boring watching people cling and refuse to open up.. some comments here say it gets better and I’m hoping so.. regardless Jim and the message are perpetually engaging
Wow! Epic convo. I had so many LOL moments as you two tried to understand Jim’s incomprehensible framing of the un-frameable. Haha!
You are a Rock Star, Jim!!!
ABSOLUTLY
I loved this discussion. Thank you so much for having Jim on, and for asking genuine questions.
This is one of the most interesting discussions I've ever heard ... because of its impossibility and because you two hosts are so smart and yet open and enquiring and willing and polite and attractive and sincere. Wow.
No one smart or stupid , it is just what happening.
I love the deconstruction taking place....When you realise it's empty, hopeless, it's scary....for the character within the story, until it's everything.
They close their eyes like they are on drugs and are listening carefully to what Jim is saying but after 2h, they haven’t listened to a thing he said!
This apparent conversation was apparently a square peg and round hole situation.
Shilo and Nastia (apparently): but how do we solve the meaning crisis?
I don’t think Jim explicitly said this, but the logical conclusion of the message and it’s suggestions are that there isn’t any actual meaning crisis, because there are no actual individuals to be deriving meaning. There’s only the illusory appearance of individuals devoid of meaning. But the nature of that “crisis” is meaningless, and therefore it’s not a crisis. It’s not a problem. It’s just what’s apparently happening.
There’s nothing wrong with the position of self actualization and pursuing a path of minimizing suffering in the world - which appears to be the intent of Nastia and Shiloh. But it really is a square peg compared to the round hole of what Jim is talking about.
"Oh teacher of the ineffable way, can you please describe the ineffable to me?"
My interpretation of this:
Jim: Rainbow is an illusion. It's just light so there are no rainbows
Anastasia+Shilo: But there are rainbows. I saw one yesterday
Jim: There are no rainbows out there.
Anastasia+Shilo: But they are out there. I know for sure.
Jim: Well, it is seen that its just refractions of light.
Anastasia+Shilo: you mean to tell me you've never seen a nice cute rainbow outside.
Jim: Okay, I am not sure we are getting anywhere.
I think that rainbows are an experience doesn't mean we deny their apparentness.
Always great to listen to Jim 👍☯
This is beautiful ❤ I see "This" as a movie. All of everything that we apparently experience is contained within the movie. We are experiencing everything from the point of view of the characters in the movie through VR goggles. The movie is already made, we are just witnessing it, it's our ego that convinced us we are in control, so we believe that we are. Drop the ego and all will be revealed ❤
I like this analogy. For some reason it just really hit. :)
Non esiste il testimone. È tutto un sogno senza sognatore.
Ego can't be dropped by any volition or will unfortunately. If it happens it happens but there is no way, no path, no technique, no decision to "make" it happen.
Yes, that's how I feel it, too.
You cannot lay words on the world, and say: that's reality described, because there is so much more to what is not described. Or seen.
As you cannot put the physical world in mathematical laws. They are incomplete, restricted, and don't take in consideration a lot of unknown factors.
Even the concept of cause and effect. It is possible, for example, that the future is effecting the present. Effects are entangled with causes, and keep being entangled, so an effect can be the cause of the cause.lol
To grasp reality without words, that's what he is speaking of.
And the last ditch, to be conquered, is to see that we are not causing or affecting reality. Reality does its own thing. It goes on with or without you.
Does the world stop if you are dead?
Do you have to take responsibility for the world?
Not, of course.
As you are made out of mud of the earth, dust of the stars, now when you are alive, you think you are separated from the world?
You are just floating in the sea of consciousness, like a jellyfish in the ocean, floating in the current, which of you are made of. Made of 99.9 % of water.
What is it what makes you think you are separated from it all, the great consciousness of it all?
But you have to -see- this without thinking, really.
Intuitively, instantly, effortlessly.
Then you will get it.
The Mystery is Simply This.
No extra explanation, no human reduction. Just Love and Unconditional Freedom, no matter the story of the apparent ego.
Dangers of Non-Duality??? Or yeah the danger of losing the "me" which was never there in the first place....lol....The Me wants to understand/know what it is like when there is no me. Impossible.
It was quite humorous to me how she misheard the word "That" and called it "the vat" and he didn't bother to correct her.
It's fun to listen to Jim share this message with people because he never tries to lead anyone or convince them of anything. The message is beyond understanding. It resonates or it doesn't and it doesn't matter either way.
Shes actually saying “the that” i believe
most loving message you'll hear❤
I do admire Jim sticking to truth so ruthlessly. It's so uncomfortable for the individual. It makes really entertaining viewing too 😄
@@real_patternThere's the experience of being an individual, even if ultimately that experience is an illusion
@@real_patternIt's obvious that a self isn't existing in the body, making our decisions etc when looking at experience closely. The brain functions by itself. Theres nobody in there choosing thoughts - if there was, we'd probably choose happy thoughts all the time or even to stop thoughts. There's no power to do that. Thoughts dictate the actions of the body. When you have a dream at night, your mind creates another you character, located somewhere else. That character thinks it's making decisions, but in reality it is not. The dream character doesn't exist. It just becomes very obvious when looking at experience closely that there's no person in the body and that the body functions by itself.
@@musicmoments8510great comment, thank you
Totally agree, it's really entertaining. The comments too. Like watching a dog chase its tail but refusing to bite it just to keep the game going.
There is no truth just what is HAPPENING everything is IT
BOOOOOM - just thisssss 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥⚪🎈
Thank you for this great conversation! 😊👍👋
Jim is the ultimate freedom fighter! Freedom protector? Freedom lover. Thank you 💪♥️
About the Teflon. Nastia says there’s no-one taking responsibility whereas Jim is just saying there’s no-one to take responsibility.
It's no one who takes* responsibility. If it did, in the relative. Just like its no one who makes any decision. There's simply no one here, and what appears ro happen happens. Brains learn, trees grow, rivers flow,,,but no ones doing it.
@@Mathewmatics86 Yes, and takung responsibility, or not, just happens.
Thank you Jim!
The problem here is that people are trying to understand with the mind something that can't be grasp with the mind.
It's only when the identity is so strongly believed in that this message can be considered as "dangerous". Without that, it just is what it is.
It is so odd how conversations at this level involve the ripe insights of fields, and their better minds of, of fields other than just the Sciences. Talks like this draw the poets, the wanderers, the dreamers, and farmers that muse. To me, salon's beauty. Community that engenders greatness. Such things always seem to be fleeting, right? Enjoy this while you can. It is hard for Genius to drink together. But every now and then... they do.
The wonderful thing about ND as presented by Jim or Tony is how people ( particularly “ learned” scientific types) will talk around and around the subject trying to get a handle on it when the message has already said that that is the root of the problem. “ my story is better than your story. And because I’m so smart my story is real “
Yeah, you almost have to feel sorry for the people. They need to have a story, an explanation. It seems to be so simple, that it's incomprehensible.
The message at Jim is crystal clear, but not to anyone looking for something in it for them.
Well done to all on this conversation. It was a bit rough at first, but once you got to the Cat and the garden of Eden it really got moving.
This is one of the best non-dualist conversations! Thank you for sharing 😊
This is great! You guys should have Angelo Dillulo on. He’s a physician and can explain the non-dual state in a much more straightforward and scientific way. He’s also really funny ☺️👍
I second this!!
@@tylernigrofr Yeah have him on.
The message at “Jim” is definitely not an explanation.
Theres no such thing as a "non dual state".
❤
Jim is cooking the Ego
13:51 (Marcus Aurelius Quote)
“Nothing can fulfill that experience of separation…is separation being alive or dead? I’m dead…sense of the individual is the experience of separation…”
"Think of yourself as dead. You have lived your life. Now take what’s left and live it properly."
- Marcus Aurelius
It’s great that you brought up Julian Jaynes in connection with The Fall. There’s a lot of confusion over the idea that humans were not conscious prior to the Bronze Age because Jaynes used a particular definition of the word ‘consciousness’ that doesn’t meet most conventions. Seen from the perspective that Jim and Non-Duality teachers take, I think it’s easier to describe that event as the invention of a idea: that of myself with an inner world called a mind. Jaynes talks about these exact concepts but people get lost in the idea of consciousness. Humans were always conscious but language led to the creation of ideas which garnered belief. Those are memes in exactly the way Dawkins and Blackmore talk about them. It’s clear that humans aren’t born with the idea that they are separate and have a mind because babies don’t act that way. They learn the idea from their parents and when they are finally convinced they ‘develop an ego’ and hit the terrible twos.
The Terrible Two's. Not a small thing.
And speaking of two's, I'll bury my comment here if you don't mind: It is the very tension between the 'Tao' that can be named, and that which obviously cannot, that establishes the inevitability of .. .. .. yes, duality. See how that works? And then .... Well, I'm not getting paid for this so.... But it is still, we can all agree, Two.
Brilliant insights.
Intellectual repulsion happens...opposites r never in opposition, only for the individual awareness believing that is holding an object. Subjective activity will never understand this. Jim states this super clear literally everywhere
Some of your questions to the guest really get to the difficulty I have with religion or schools of spirituality in general--almost universally they recommend the cessation of striving, but even if the process is often badly frustrated in modern society, striving and achieving is when we really feel alive. As Nietzsche wrote, 'What is happiness? - The feeling that power increases - that a resistance is overcome.'
As Jonathan Swift wrote: 'Happiness is the perpetual possession of being well deceived.'
One thing I'm aware of watching this video is that Jim's laugh is very contagious in a way I've not come across before 🤔🙂
Could it be that The Garden of Eden = checkmate = The That ? Thank you all for such a beautiful, confrontational yet non-adversarial conversation! 😂
I would love to see Jim have a chat with Delson Armstrong or Daniel Ingram, or all 3!!! You guys gotta make that happen before Guru Viking does it maybe even get Angelo Dilulo in there.
I'd give my left kidney for Ingram, Jim and Angelo on one podcast lol
That would be gnarly. The kings of special vs. the king of nothing special.
Dr. Michael and the lady; are you assuming that you will stop "doing things" if you would accept that there is not a separate self? The real fear I think is the individual does not want to end.... and that keeps you from doing that? I admire Jim that he does not compromise, even though 'he' would say 'he' has no message.
A captivating interview and discussion. The identification within duality as the basis for discussion inevitably leads to a conflict in discussions with Non-Duality. Many 'spiritual' approaches derive consolation from good intentions. The ocean/wave metaphor is popular, where we can find salvation in the knowledge of a 'THAT' and at the same time, be the best person we can be in our everyday experience of Duality..The labouring of the suffering aspects of duality was clarified as aspects of what is happening, and therefore determined by the ocean, possibly outside the capacity for intervention and value judgement. I was reminded of a couple of statements by Krishnamurti (K); "If you do surrender yourself you will be surrendering to the image you have created about another, OR the image you have projected.". Also . 'the purpose of life is to be masters of our environment'. Thank you for surfing the waves.
The concepts are fairly straightforward. However, the message appears incredibly confronting/threatening to the separate identities, because the message seems to obliterate all concepts and distinctions.
And yet people will hear it, say they get it but then still say "but I'm still real".
Great discussion. The hosts are clearly open, genuine seekers of truth. Much gratitude 🙏
Jim is one of the best! ❤
Beautiful conversation
The best interview and conversation so far ❤
The spirit of education is a great book . Jim should recommend it .
It’s basically saying the fool is life in it’s true nature and uneducated is bliss
Shilo says it’s going perfectly well for him. It’s worth knowing that most of the people who are attracted to Non-Duality don't feel that way. They tend to be suffering badly.
i wouldn't call myself a non-dualist or anything :)
just sayin i can see how everything is one and all the parts remain real and important at the same time. i see no contractiction.
But yeah, i agree that this kind of extreme disconnection seems unhealthy. just my experience...
@@DemystifySci_Podcast Right. I was suggesting that you’re not a good candidate to seek a teacher. Your itch is an intellectual/scientific one. Many of the people I met while studying ND were deeply unhappy. There were recovering addicts and people with suicidal tendencies, for example, or rich, successful people who were still miserable. There’s a story that suffering pushes people towards this inquiry. I never saw happy, contented folks showing up at those meetings.
I've had this same thought. Tolle, Spira etc all had some form of existential crisis that brought them to the threshold of ND.
You don’t need to be suffering badly to realise your true nature it’s available to anyone 😊
@@jamesgreenldn Yes, it’s always available to everyone but people who are enjoying their dream rarely seek to wake up.
Jim talks from the awareness, the hosts talks from the mind. Awareness consider "that", the mind doesnt
AWESOME simply wonderful to encounter this seeming individual. There is not a way or a teaching, there just is, what is. We as humans have a talent for stories and there of course is nothing "wrong" in this. We have taken the territory for the map and to leave the map is scary for the one that believes the map. (BTW I love maps hehe) If you have not had on, Iaan McGilchrist (sure I misspelt his name) a brilliant man IMHO. Cheers from a retired soldier down under.
I have studied nondual teachings for 35 years, Buddhist dharma, Hindu teachings, eastern and western psychology. I made my focus for presenting these wonderful teachings to be as practical and useful as possible to human beings so they were RELATABLE. Sure, I love how nondual this guy is. I get high on nondual teachings. But something about the absolute uselessness and non practicality of the way he present just tweaks me out. It is not useful nor practical for normal human beings. And yes, the hosts, being highly intelligent, were very kind and respectful and open. I was most impressed with that factor! In groups I teach, I suggest people relax their mind into heart area and just breathe and soften, dropping cognitive processing into simple heart feeling. This to me is very practical, because it can indeed yield a deeper more direct experience of THAT, the ESSENCE AT THE CORE. I dont know, maybe I am just grouchy, but for many years, although I adore nondual teachings, something about the impracticality of the presentation just irks me.
Being irked may be a clue.
The impracticality is what allows it to be a truly timeless message. It is good for nothing, and in a world of insatiable becoming, that’s sometimes seen to be a relief! But whether it’s relieving, or irking, makes no difference to it. It doesn’t aim to be seen in any particular way because it is equally all that is. It is the relieving, and the irking as well. There’s no exclusive experience to be gotten from it.
Bravo!!!
Interesting, original conversation. Thank you.
Because of consciousness we are trapped on this side of reality the geometry is clear....... the fact that at any given moment there is a wall that we can not see beyond....... it's like an equation that you can only see half of. The asking part and the answering part....... which I would consider an empirical 180-degree shift of phase........ all in all a very profound discussion that I'm really glad I watched and will probably watch several times over probably even take notes. Thanks for all your honesty and your attention to a very human and sophisticated discipline........ now I'm going back to listen to Karen Ellison😊
The hosts are identified with the thought of "I" as a separate identity who "has" things. Inquire about the I and "you" will find it to be illusory. Freedom ❤
I didnt realize intellectual was a bad word 🙂🤐
you realise there is no inherent self,when you realise there is no inherent self to realise it
That was excellent!!! Thank you!
Great interview.
You guys rock!
She's just not getting it at all 😂
thank you very much!
What ARE the dangers of non-duality? It's only dangerous to the "me" and it's inevitable need to seek meaning and purpose, or to avoid doing so. When it's seen that there's no one anywhere then all's always already perfect freedom, total anarchy. What could feel more dangerous to the "me"? 😄
I’d like to see Tony Parsons on this channel
topic?
@@DemystifySci_Podcastthis topic. Jim frequented Tony’s meetings before his apparent shift.
Emerson Non-Duality as a guest would be fantastic!!
Great one :) Thank you :)
Three “bodies” apparently having a conversation…Two “individuals” apparently experiencing “themselves” as being there 😂
And a whole bunch of people apparently watching from home :D
"You" can't understand nonduality because it is the "i" who is trying to understand nonduality is the one who is creating duality (and thus "blocking" nonduality). Once this "i" the one trying to understand and grasp it goes away, it becomes effortlessly clear... yet remains completely indescribable.
Self the I AM is always there no matter what otherwise you can not function. Where awareness is there and it is not personal.
fantastic talk great movement between cool people.
This is a tough way to get into Non-Duality. As Jim said, he’s not teaching like Francis Lucille, Eckhart Tolle and the rest who try to meet people where they are and take small steps.
My experience of studying ND was of questioning my beliefs one by one and seeing them merely as ideas I didn’t have to sign up to. There are hundreds of these and they tend to prop each other up. Some people spend decades at this.
@@gil902 I don't know all the authors' stories but Eckhart, Byron Katie and David Carse had never studied anything of non-duality before their key experience.
Hahahahaah
@@neilcreamer8207Suzanne Segal too
Eckard Tolle and all the others selling selfhelp and also brainwashing people!This guy theory has no help or use to offer!I like it!Its impossible to realy understand it,its honest,no offer of comfort,no trieing to profit much from the suffering of the human condition!
I've been misunderstanding zen for about 50 years, and I think that many of my errors have disappeared as a consequence of the humiliation that occurs when an individual self confronts a universe that seems to be other than myself. Still a deluded individual, but gradually less attached to my delusions. I've encountered a lot of people who claim to be "enlightened" or "liberated" or "awakened." I have an intuition that Newman is authentic; not pretending to be anything other than what he is. He seems to consistently and unerringly express the types of concepts I've seen associated with the "awakened" state. The problem is that expressing that reality to people who are trying to fit it into their current worldview seems to inevitably lead to confusion. I've read that the Buddha said that he taught suffering and the end of suffering. When his students asked questions about the self, he remained silent. It seems to me, that is the difference between a more mature condition of awakening, the Bodhisattva state, that leads the realized person to seek primarily to reduce or end suffering, rather than simply trying to explain the difference between the suffering state and the awakened non-suffering state. Or not. 😉
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is
Something Nastia shared regarding the Jill Bolte Taylor story (neuroscientist that had a stroke resulting in what seemed to be temporary enlightenment) was one of the more insightful points I’ve heard in a while.
Basically that the left brain needs to be prepared for the experiential shifts that can happen. Normally these shifts happen through religious practice, meditation, drugs, etc. But they can also happen spontaneously.
This insight - if true - firmly highlights the importance of quality understanding of the concepts posed, especially those of nonduality. It seems nearly ubiquitous that spiritual shifts from result in more obvious nondual/oneness nature of reality.
So by engaging with and understanding the conceptual pointers like what Jim shares, or Francis, Rupert, or countless others, the left brain is getting comfortable with the experiential shift that can potentially happen if the right brain ends up better integrated or more primary.
czcams.com/video/oPuobp2S_lI/video.html&ab_channel=SimplyAlwaysAwake
Read the description every twenty minutes while watching this... something funny arises
Love Jim Newman ! Highly recommend checking out his interview with Alan Steinfeld if you found this interesting. He has quite a different energy in every interview I've seen of his and always absolutely mind boggling and entertaining. Subbed :)
Edit: finished watching and reading some of the comments. The idea that everything is perfect just as it is is really quite radical and very scary for most people, if you think of all the terrible things in the world, our history as a species and where we seem to be heading.
What Buddha suggests is that the sense of separation is the root cause of ALL suffering. He and many others have outlined a path of how to decrease your suffering, that is to disentangle yourself from the things you're identified WITH that aren't actually you. When you realise you are not your thoughts, depending on your psychological makeup and conditioning, this can result in a massive decrease in suffering. This along with the dismantling of false beliefs(precisely, the clear-seeing that they were false in the first place) you may have had about yourself has huge liberating power.
The radical suggestion is that this process of working out what is and isn't you can be taken to an actual endpoint where suffering is completely eradicated. This is enlightenment. Now whether or not this is actually possible is a question best looked into yourself. What is suffering? Is it possible to decrease it? And how much? How exactly?
What are you without the mind? Is there something else there? Beyond conceptual understanding or thought?
As Buddha said 'don't take my word for it, see for yourself' (loosely paraphrasing lol)
He didn't say this to be an arse like "I know something you don't get rekd lul", it's an invitation to look deeply and honestly at your own experience and see what is true for you. These are all just models; for all of us here Non Duality is a bunch of models. There's no way to understand what Jim is talking about because he's talking about a reality completely free of models, which may as well be fiction for all of us. It's just not feasible for the mind, which is where we all operate from. I personally find it quite enthralling to entertain the idea that such a direct relationship with reality(which wouldn't be a relationship tbf lmao) could be possible. The deep peace of sitting in silence, or outside listening to the rain. Walking in nature on a cool summer's day or dancing for 6 hours at a rave, talking openly and connecting deeply with loved ones; I do believe Jim is right in that every desire in the heart is a gentle inclination towards that experience of oneness. Every joy, a degree of recognition of that oneness.
The Non Dual suggestion is that you don't have to do anything, you're already oneness. Perfect as you are :)
He's talking a lot of sense, but I have since long been more or less of the same opinion. I don't take it badly, I honestly see it as a manifestation of destiny. I guess that also explains curiosity: to end the experience of separation it is useful for the"self" to increase its own knowledge. Doesn't matter the object of said curiosity. My bottom line is: I'll just have as much fun as I can along the ride.
i scrolled a little ahead because i was getting bored, then i heard a part about the cat...
so i went back to the part i got bored with him saying it doesnt matter at 33:44
this is where he is wrong, this matters a lot🙂
Great debate. I'm on your side. I hope Mr. Newman never works on the suicide hotline. I think this philosophical approach does disempower the individual. How can it logically not?
@@gil902 If you are used to living in a dualistic state, your brain is wired to derive meaning from a sense of identity. If you suddenly strip the structure, the mind (specially a troubled mind) can feel quite literally "depersonalized".
First time here on the channel.
Pretty enjoyable conversation with all of you, btw.
Just a tip for the couple, or anybody findind this difficult to grasp.
Not that Jim is failing on the delivery of the message, I guess its because they aren't the same type of truth seekers that are on non-duality circuits out there, anyways..
You can put non duality this way,..it is called non dual, because is trying to point that it is not two right? But not two what?
Everything, every single thing!
Just like when you've said if feels great to have an achievement?
Well, only because there is failures out there, right? If the only thing possible was success, the feeling of achieving something would be way more dim, very ordinary and mundane, like: breathing.
So, you could focus on this amazing feeling of achievement your whole life telling yourself that this feeling is the meaning of life, for example, but this feeling could never ever exist without the the feeling of failure, or lost, or defeat. So this particular phenomenon of 'feeling of achievement' is entirely dependent on the feeling of failure! It is just ONE single same thing.
You can't have one without the other. They need themselves out there in order for each to becomes cognizable!! Acknowledgable! They provide contrast to each other! Like male/female, thin/thick, lighter/darker, ..and so on.
So, in a bad poetry way of saying, the adiction of the felling of achievement manifest out there many, many failures.
They'll have to exist! There's just no other way!
It is ONE thing! Not two.
..
So, this is the kind of the message the original non dual speakers was trying to comunicate with people, that this existence simply can't be divided. You can build an illusion that it could, but it couldn't.
And denying this basic truth is root suffering of the world.
Consider this quote from The Dramatic Universe vol 1 p50-51 by J G Bennett. "We can recast the ancient question: 'Of what stuff is all reality made?' in the form: 'Of what stuff is all experience made?' Ordinarily we tend to imagine that there must be two kinds of stuff corresponding to the distinction between subject and object. For example, if we look at a table it seems as if there are two different kinds of stuff present: one the 'inner' stuff of our awareness, and the other the stuff of the table itself, which is somehow 'outside'. This means that we make the Cartesian distinction of 'thinking substance' and 'extended substance'. This is rather like saying that because a stick has two ends, it must be made of two different materials, whereas the ends are only aspects of the stick and have no 'existence' apart from it. What exists is the experience itself. To affirm this is not to deny polarity, but to restore it to its right status as the binary aspect of experience. The event, looking at the table, is a whole, the togetherness of which derives from our awareness. It is also a relationship in which our interest or concern enables our organs of perception to respond to the impressions received from the table by selecting them from the totality of sense-data present that the words 'I' and the 'the table' have their usual meaning. It is necessary to stress these distinctions because we have the strongly formed habit of thinking in dualistic terms; this is, of attending to the aspect of polarity to the exclusion of the other elements present in experience. On account of this habit of thought, all sorts of fictitious questions arise, and here again philosophers have wasted much time and energy by treating them as if they were real. The classical example for Western philosophy is the insistence of Descartes that his awareness of things is different from his awareness of himself.......
If I pay no attention to the words and just let in the sounds, what does that seem like? Rumi is reported to have said; 'Silence is the language of "God" and everything else is a poor translation'.
Love Jim
i love this ep lol
At the moment I am a non dualist however I can elucidate my understanding of my experience. I am pure creative energy that is having an experience of being human through a conscious construct that is partly my doing and partly not my doing. The Operating system that creates the platform for this experience is not of my doing, it is the manifestation by the Universal Consciousness of which we are all a part. My part of the conscious construct is the expression of the specific 'era' such as timeline, geography, culture and potential role that I am to play. To make the experience more multidimensional experientially I have an Ego which is an emotionally charged early warning defensive mechanism that filters threat from pleasure, friend from foe and good from bad that initiates emotional responses which in turn cause a bodily sensation causing me (my avatar) to react to the situation. To offset the Ego is the left half of my brain which is the analytical more logical side that counters the emotional chain of events to temper them and potentially make the experience more enjoyable, rather than having continuous rollercoaster experience of threat and pleasure sensations. The right side of my brain is the creative, artistic side that allows for enjoyment and true interaction with my environment. These three aspects are environmental stimuli filters that have their own personality traits that I, the observer of this experience. uses to experience this existence. When I am fully operating as the observer while using the creative side of the brain I am one with everything in my domain.
A common response to a non-dual message like this seems to be the assumption that it’s suggesting there’s something wrong with the conviction of real separation, and that it shouldn’t arise. But it doesn’t actually suggest anything like that. It’s quite fine if it continues to appear. The sense of separation might seem to be a useful-fiction within itself, and whether that fog seems to clear away or not, it’s equally the Absolute appearing as that. So in a sense, there is no such thing as ‘non-enlightenment’, and no underlying ‘need’ for anyone to recognize this. This is precisely why so many go silent after it dawns upon them. Most speaking is tethered to a personal desire to change something, and this recognizes that the changing is inevitable, and that there already wasn’t someone there making it happen. Additionally, recognizing it does not absolutely mean that one will become a stone Buddha and never animate again, but rather that the conviction of an exclusively existing intermediary pulling the strings, is seen to have been a fiction all along. So of course the cessation of activity cannot be a direct result of that fictional evaporation, if it never had the power it was convinced it had to begin with.
Alan watts once used the analogy of dreaming….so suddenly you have the power to control dream world so you can go do be experience anything you want during dream state….eventually one would again go…this again….
❤Jim
The term illusion requires an absolute subject which coincidentally feels false. Otherwise, there is nothing else outside of me, including myself, except for the "moment" that I remember. Every moment is this life to remember and everything happens for this "moment".
I feel like Jim doesn't instruct people and he could end so much confusion if maybe he could develop some skills and wear a "Teachers Hat" for his youtube work and guide people in his concepts using their language. It's ultimately not a good use of time when at the very end of the 2 hour podcast Jim says "you haven't been listening to me." It's not that they are not listening, it's that they don't understand what Jim is saying because he doesn't express himself well enough to someone who hasn't lived in that space.
Generally, it's not helpful to jump right into the deep end if you know the interviewers can't swim. For example - spend the first 20 minutes or so talking about free will. The interviewers have to understand his position on free will. Develop examples, do a one minute meditation to show how they have no free will related to what thoughts surface. Make the connection between thoughts and actions - if you have no free will with your thoughts (even though you feel you do) there is no free will with your actions (it just feels that way, but it's an illusion). If they don't agree, go to your basket of examples and try something else. If they don't get it, they can at least agree/understand that this is Jim's perspective, and everything else he says is from that perspective - laying a foundation. Then you wouldn't get questions so late in the interview related to basic concepts that they never understood in the first place. Jim has a lot to offer - but I wish his approach would be different, at least to the point where good honest, open people like these interviewers can conceptually understand after talking to them for 2 hours.
The Bible agrees on all these points. The one not given as possible is that the cosmos wants to be followed. The greatest desire of everyone is to do what God wants you to do.
There's a lot of wisdom in The Bible. The issue is finding it among the commands to commit genocide, make people slaves or punish women for being raped.
At 1:10:35 Anastasia is referring to the experience of neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor. And her speculation about the role of the left hemisphere of the brain in delimiting our perceptions and experience is explored in enormous detail by psychiatrist Iain McGilchrist in his two books The Master and His Emissary and The Matter with Things.
Fabulous ep guys. More Sci vs psy pls