Me too! I leaned it's thought stopping. Don't do that to people. Even if you get stuck in a why loop as a parent. If they keep asking why ask them to ask you a better question! ❤ This has been so healing for me!
Carah’s personality and passaz literally got me and my wife through our faith crisis and deconstruction. It looked like divorce was on the horizon for a while but this podcast got us through it. Mormon Stories episodes are always great but they are next level with Carah on.
What a journey this was. I've been exmormon for 21 years and was still apologizing for the church until I found this group about 2 months ago. Thank you John D and Carah. And thank you John L for saying so many things I've been wanting to say for too long. I appreciate all of you. Joined the discord, can't wait to dive in
Thank you all so much! I was never Mormon, but am shocked how often I cry when you all, tonight especially Maven and Carah, say exactly what is in my heart, because my own religious childhood (Southern Baptist, my grandfather was a minister) hurt me and only now, in my 60s, am I dealing with the pain that theology and patriarchy damaged me and many others. Many individuals are sweet and loving, including my late grandfather, but the power, money, and hypocrisy of the institution is awful. I thought I had processed my trauma, but never unpacking the worthlessness indoctrinated in us …. Wow. Thank you, each of you. I will send in support for your necessary work. ❤
As a woman who just left the church in the last month, I can honestly tell you that it never occurred to me that it wasn't in my destiny to create world's and be a god, but to disappear and pump out spirit children, never being spoken or thought about again. It is so normalized in society at large and especially in religion (including Mormonism) to have everything written to and about "men" and as women we are trained and often outright told that we just need to mentally include ourselves in the statement. As a result, creating worlds, becoming like God, were things I thought about myself until my spiritual deconstruction made me realize that that actually isn't about me.
The part where you mentioned mentally including yourself. That hit me like a ton of bricks. I’ve never had someone say exactly how I felt like that before. I’m not even Mormon but I know what that feels like
This was the funniest and most informative mind blowing episode of Mormon Stories, straight up. Soooo happy to just be on once a month with John Larsen! It's only getting better from here too!
You bring comic relief to the show. Which is needed when you're talking about somewhat depressing stuff. Please Remind John " AKA Big Boss" of this. Ok little boss?
I do not get why there is such a focus on weird stuff like celestial births. I mean hardly any mormon believes in it (at least not the people I know) but more important: it is counter doctrinal since the scripture says that intelligence cannot be created but existed forever. That clearly indicates that "father" (refering to god) cannot be a "biological" creater. The whole Plan of Happiness makes much more if intelligence are as fundamental as matter (energy) in a metaphysical sense. Because then Plan of Salvation would be logical game theory solution. (Prison Dilemma with infinite games) and thus giving a meaning to a cosmological nihilism.
Thank you, John Larsen, for pointing out the idea that, if we’re all exalted (my husband and I, our siblings, all of our descendants, all of our ancestors) then that completely blows apart the idea that we will be living together as family units in eternity. I have thought about that idea many times and never heard it discussed anywhere at church. I always wondered if I was the only one who had thought it through that much. I never dared bring it up because I had been given funny looks in gospel doctrine class for other shelf-book questions I asked.
I asked some Mormon missionaries about it once and...they were stumped. Especially from the point of view of modern Mormons who have come to emphasize the nuclear family (including the missionary message about "eternal families" that focuses so much on the nuclear family), there are a lot of things that don't add up if you think about it too much. I pointed out that in a properly sealed up nuclear family, the mom is sealed into her husband's family and their daughters (if they have more than one daughter) will be sealed into their husbands' families, and if those daughters' husbands are from different families, each daughter then will be going off to separate families. So the picture of the perfect, eternally happy nuclear family unit sealed together as a family unit forever (as depicted in the typical "forever family" Mormon propaganda) doesn't really explain how anything could possibly really work in a system of multi-generational sealings. At the end of the conversation, the two missionaries basically figured that in the Celestial Kingdom it would really be like one huge extended family and Celestialized folks would basically be able to visit wherever and whomever they wanted. I mentioned that this kind of made the highly specific individual-by-individual family sealings (for both living and dead) kind of pointless. The missionaries just shrugged and kind of mumbled that they could see how someone could see things that way. (And as is the case with most half-baked Mormon doctrinal innovations, they invoked the belief that the details would be explained and make sense in the afterlife.)
@team_poseidon Your interpretation of everybody being one HUge Everybody Family is exactly how I envisioned the Celestial Kingdom, and the ability to visit the other territories including mortal areas.
John Larsen has nailed it. He understands what these high demand religions are all about. It's power and money, but mostly power. Power gives you control over people, and that's what these leaders want.
I am a recently shelf broken deconstructing exmormon. I have appreciated what you do, John. Both of you. And Carah. And Jenn. And Gerardo. And everyone else who helps create content to spread truth, disburse lies, and aid in deconstruction. Thank you. I can't say it enough. I always look forward to the John Larsen episodes here. They are great! Insightful, funny, and healthy expressions of anger.
I hope you are doing ok. I'm in a weird place too. Trying to figure this out and there's so much... I'm constantly scratching my head. Things just don't make sense. Feeling lost.
Quote of the year, “the casual cruelty of mormonism towards those who don’t conform to the standard is only visible to those who don’t conform to the standard”. So…SO true
Indeed. I know JD has said maybe 1/4 of subscribers are never-mo, me bring one. I listen to almost every upload, and I’ve never been Mormon. I was introduced to cultural Mormonism in 1997 when I worked for a company headquartered in SLC and from that sprung an obsession with high demand religious movements and cults.
I’ve said this a couple times in Mormon Stories comment sections: I don’t know that I can say I’m happier outside Mormonism, but I know the truth now, and that is a very satisfying feeling. A good analogy would be Neo and the red pill. The extra-Matrix or “real” world was not great, but he knew the truth, and that was invaluable.
This is valuable insight to me. I’m not sure if I’m happier now, but at least I’m not deluded by some 19th century fantasy writer’s idea of “salvation”.
@@littlebee5048 Yup. Honestly, it also comes down to something as simple as how we define “happiness.” Can living in a naive, very closed minded community be complete bliss? Well sure it can. The thought of being together with family forever, being a god, having your own planet, etc. can create strongly euphoric experiences/feelings. But it’s also fake, so is it really happiness?
This has been my favorite episode. I left the church 25 years ago and found recently that I was still experiencing it's damage especially on my self esteem and marriage. It's been a huge often heavy path to work through. So much logic with so much irreverence was so healing and freeing. Thank you for reminding me that even if the church is true it's highest heaven sounds like torture and I'd happily take my chances in outer darkness.
That is very similar to my path. I had a very slow burn departure and never processed any of it properly. This podcast has been helping me do it now, 15 years later than I should have. But better late than never!
This is amazing work! “Heaviness” is the best way to try to explain the burden of doubt. I am in my 40s now but I remember going to my bishop when I was a teenager and asking him. What am I missing? Why don’t I feel what other members felt? Is there something wrong with me? And his response was you don’t feel close to God because you’re sinning too much. That was it. There is this theme of you are bad and god is constantly pissed off and distant and cold, etc…. I have a new life now and recently had a vision that the LDS god is not real. He had to die in my mind for me to find who God really is. It was incredible to see that Jesus is real and the God of the Mormon church is not real. And God has been giving me blessings ever since I saw this vision because he is rebuilding my trust. Which is incredible and amazing that he would even care about my fear of trusting in him. I love our community. It’s nice to hear from people who “get it”
When I listen to John Larsen in this awesome podcast I realize that the endless cycle of breeding and suffering of the plan of "salvation" is actually a reality for so many Mormons I know today. They are having so many children, disowning some of those children and perpetuating pain and suffering through all of their children. Instead, we could stop, think and solve problems with love and respect for all humanity.
OMG this episode has been so healing just from the sheer laughter. I was literally laughing out loud while on the bus to work this morning. But also… very important topic to logically think about since “salvation” is the basis of the fear that gets instilled in people to not leave the church. And yeah…. If that’s my salvation… (covenant path)…. hard pass
Oh come on Renea. You know you want to go into labor 3853032 bajillion times. You seem like someone who is up for the challenge. When I look up the definition of "Bring it on", there's a picture of you. Now how do you explain that?
a lot of people mention the ME episode "how to build a transoceanic vessel," and for good reason, but i think this one is even better. this breakdown of how the plan of salvation is supposed to work, it shows how the entire concept is bonkers.
Love Love LOVE This episode!!!! The interview with Maven was my favorite "Mic Drop" part. I love how she and John Larsen and Carah summed up their epic answers. I love you guys!! Thanks again John Dehlin for another AMAZING show!!!!
Thank you for bringing up all these questions and problems I had for years, including the biological ones. I was studying biology at university when I got baptized, so that led me to wanting an explanation for all these issues about how the body will function. But I was also led to believe that I would find out one day. Also about how it would be better to have never been born or to have died before the age of 8, cos then I would have gone straight to the Celestial Kingdom, but now I and everybody else, risk not getting there by screwing up in one of the many ways we can screw up (such as not being able to overcome an addiction). I had to just ignore these issues if I wanted to stay sane!
I have said the same thing where processed Mormons DO act like heroin addicts. My mother in particular. My siblings and I are just starting to have these open conversations and IT IS liberating! Thank you all so much for these highly important conversations. Mormons truly act like non-Mormons are non-human. Our mother has traumatized at least 4 out of 5 of us and even worse by her conditional treatment based on who is Mormon and who isn't. Our older sister is still a "member" but her eyes might be the easiest to open given the right timing.
I had an abusive ex who was an exmo (closeted) in a family of current LDS members. He told me a story about how just before his 8th birthday he took a whole bottle of vitamins (thinking they’d be like pain killers) trying to unalive himself because he thought if he didn’t die before 8 he’d never get to the celestial kingdom because of how violent and unfaithful his mother was being at the time. He was pretty manipulative, so I have no idea if he was being honest, but based on how many exmo members I know who say they wished for years they’d passed before 8 I believe him.
The other head scratcher that I contemplated in my youth was…our DNA comes from our earthly parents. We’re exactly 50% our father and 50% our mother genetically. If our spirit looks exactly like our physical body, then our Heavenly Parents somehow “spiritually birthed” us with our earthly DNA prior to our ourselves and our progenitors being born physically!??
I am ao happy! I heard this episode on autoplay ane was laughing so hard and then couldn't find it. So i HAD to watch every episode on the playlist until I found it 😊
This episode was hilarious! It totally brought be back to some discussions I remember back in Sunday school, trying so hard to make sense of things that you can't make sense of.
When my son was 4 yrs old we were reading the bom...when we got to Omni he said "wait, stop mum, does anyone actually end up happy in this book?" 😂😂😂...we stopped and have never picked it up again 😂 We went to church and he whispers to me during sacrament..."hey mum, don't u want me to be happy?"😂😂😂... we've never been back😂
Yep they know don’t they well done. On another note our 7yo bored during scripture study made her own verse up and apparently her verse said Moses took the people to the airport to catch a plane so…..
"It is easy to get good people to do good things and good people sometimes do bad things. But to get bad people to do good things you need religion." The constant emphasis on happiness in the hereafter has the saddest effect in that the people in the church are often ignoring happiness and truth in this life with so much concentration on life after death.
Yes thats what I hate about religion, it is dehumanizing. My mom says she can't wait to go to heaven. She is healthy, mid 60s with healthy children and grandchildren
🦋🦋🦋 im just not sure how i feel about all this. Im not a Mormon nor am i an ex- Mormon. Now i was brought up in a cult. ( Not sure you are familiar with it, but I bet you are! I grew up in the Worldwide Church of God)I was involved in it til at the age of 27 and the changes came about. By the time I was 30 i was going and involved in a “Splinter Group”. Around the age of 35 i was no longer apart of that group either. My mom taught it before we were able to attend “church”. We started going to church when I was 5 years old. I loved the fact we went church. It did however take some time for me to get used to the way they held services and how quiet and still i had to be. Unreal for any children. Anyway with all the different studies I did and at the beginnings of the changes in WCG I just took to the Bible as my learning/study guide. Usually the NIV and the NKJ and some in the KJ and NLT. With all that being said … i just don’t really know what I feel about what John Larsen is saying. I hear what he is reading and saying especially in the Holy Bible, but I’m not sure how i feel about his interpretation. I know he has so much more knowledge in a lot of this than i do. Im gonna have to go back and listen to the scriptures write them down and read them for myself. I know several things he has said make sense, but not sure how much sense it really makes to me. Thank all 3 of you for putting this out there… its (hopefully) gonna show me things in a different light either way 🙃 Hence I do understand that he is reading from the book of Mormon and mostly talking about a lot of what Mormon’s teach. 🦋🦋🦋
No joke, the single question that started the entire deconstruction of my own faith was, “is there a ‘why’ behind the deepest doctrines of the plan of salvation?” As in, if I look at at the entire framework and structure for this doctrine, is there a clear answer for why things have to be this way? In the end, I found no motivation behind the plan of salvation and it led to an even more existentially nihilistic view in my opinion.
Why...would you ask such a question? (Just kidding.) Seriously, that's a good point. A lot of children go through a phase where they are constantly pestering their parents with "why" questions. That's the questioning phase that many parents have the hardest time with, so they usually answer "just because". That's basically all you'll ever get from Mormon leaders too.
Mind blown! If I even brought up part of this to my TBM family, they would just say “oh well we don’t understand everything now, but we will in the afterlife-and don’t forget that there is no end to time and space, so there will always be room for more and more gods and worlds.” So many mind gymnastics. I guess it’s okay that so many people will suffer. That’s the plan according to Mormonism.
I think it's safe to say that the church does help create "peaceful" people but also people who tend to be pleasers and the type who easily look the other way while bad things are happening
Mormons are fascinating. The magical thinking, folk magic and supernatural beings is just bonkers. I have zero religion and know little about all of the Mormon doctrines/theology. With that said, according to physics, time is only experienced as linear by those of us here in corporeal bodies. So... time... past, present and future occur simultaneously beyond our comprehension. For any "God" or "spiritual beings" time, could not be experienced as we do. Why Mormons would imagine spirts take up physical space is weird or why any spiritual being would want a meat body is ludicrous. My 2 cents listening to this informative conversation. Super interesting. Thanks
Hahahaha this is gold. It all comes apart like a cheap 2 dollar t shirt. You've got to do this more often. The 3 of you swearing and analysing Mormonism is sooooooo good. I'll watch the next one with a couple of rums. As always good work MS.
@1:40 or so- exalted beings as parents- no thought for their children’s suffering; no empathy. Hmmm reminds me of Chad, Lori, Ruby, and Jody. I can see why they would not feel bad inflicting torture on their children. So many are deemed expendable in this planet.😰🤬
John's humorous insight that Mormon theology is a justification for a system of slavery and suffering is really insightful, almost like it was invented by imperial invaders or/ colonialists.
Just a moment to wonder, I am old enough to remember David I McKay, Hugh B Brown, J Ruben Clarke, N Eldon Tanner, and others who at the time were awe-inspiring, but todays first presidency all seem to be continually upset and pushed off at all of us and seem they cannot speak to us without chastising the members
So I was really late to the party on this DELIGHTFUL conversation. When it comes to the horrors of an eternal afterlife, even for a divine eternal being, I highly recommend the short story "The Last Answer" by Isaac Asimov. This first opened my eyes to the ramifications and eventual, unavoidable, and perpetual horror of infinite consciousness.
My guess is that an infinite consciousness would have an infinite variety of ways to keep itself entertained (which may explain this joke of a world) and feel wonderful whenever it wanted to feel wonderful. Asimov's take may be valid, but if there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness I would tend to discount to the point of worthlessness any attempt to understand the ramifications of such consciousness by way of projecting into eternity the feelings and perceptions of human consciousness (including all of the physical body and physical world phenomena that shape and influence it) and then imagining how it would feel if it just went on forever.
I'm glad to see Carah back. I absolutely understand her frustration after the Rod Meldrum episodes, he was given free reign to repeat the same racist and homophobic nonsense for hours on end and had an incredibly smug and condescending tone the entire time. I would've rage quit halfway through.
I agree with you Joshua. I’m a NeverMo, but when Rod started spewing his BS, I stopped listening. I still support MS every month. I want more John Larson- he is brilliant and entertaining. 👏🏻
I agree with Carah. I couldn’t listen after about five minutes in. I hated the way he kept looking back at Carah as if challenging her to respond. I would have left if I was Carah. Either that or go all out ridiculing his ridiculous ideas.
I would say that the value in that is that the leading proponent of a line of thinking and belief that is quite influential among TBMs is now fully on the record, in his own words, for anyone to examine in detail. It's a valuable contribution to the historical record and I appreciate MS for doing those kinds of things, even though I'm sure that it wasn't a fun time.
I had a Mormon co-worker who once told me about the celestial heavens after telling me she was a Christian too. I am under the impression that you don't have babies and you do have Jesus in the Terrestrial heaven. I told her that is where I want to be, I don't want to be pregnant for the great of eternity..doesn't sound like Heaven to me,..Be with their family forever.??.yes I think of a lot of things like that can not be justified ( illogical) because of what they say they believe..and you never hear them address that!! There is a new Jesus for every planet they start when they get their own planet..that thought goes along with being with your family forever!!
I'm two years too late, but I just have to say how much I love you all, and I thank you for all you do. Hugs!
❤❤❤❤❤
When I was a child I was told to stop asking hypothetical questions, this episode was a dream episode for me.
Me too! I leaned it's thought stopping. Don't do that to people. Even if you get stuck in a why loop as a parent. If they keep asking why ask them to ask you a better question! ❤ This has been so healing for me!
It's 4am and I'm rolling in bed laughing. John Larsen is one heck of a storyteller. Back for more!
Carah’s personality and passaz literally got me and my wife through our faith crisis and deconstruction. It looked like divorce was on the horizon for a while but this podcast got us through it. Mormon Stories episodes are always great but they are next level with Carah on.
This is such a sweet comment.
What a lovely thing to share!
What a journey this was. I've been exmormon for 21 years and was still apologizing for the church until I found this group about 2 months ago. Thank you John D and Carah. And thank you John L for saying so many things I've been wanting to say for too long. I appreciate all of you. Joined the discord, can't wait to dive in
Thank you all so much! I was never Mormon, but am shocked how often I cry when you all, tonight especially Maven and Carah, say exactly what is in my heart, because my own religious childhood (Southern Baptist, my grandfather was a minister) hurt me and only now, in my 60s, am I dealing with the pain that theology and patriarchy damaged me and many others. Many individuals are sweet and loving, including my late grandfather, but the power, money, and hypocrisy of the institution is awful. I thought I had processed my trauma, but never unpacking the worthlessness indoctrinated in us …. Wow. Thank you, each of you. I will send in support for your necessary work. ❤
As a woman who just left the church in the last month, I can honestly tell you that it never occurred to me that it wasn't in my destiny to create world's and be a god, but to disappear and pump out spirit children, never being spoken or thought about again. It is so normalized in society at large and especially in religion (including Mormonism) to have everything written to and about "men" and as women we are trained and often outright told that we just need to mentally include ourselves in the statement. As a result, creating worlds, becoming like God, were things I thought about myself until my spiritual deconstruction made me realize that that actually isn't about me.
The part where you mentioned mentally including yourself. That hit me like a ton of bricks. I’ve never had someone say exactly how I felt like that before. I’m not even Mormon but I know what that feels like
If John Larsen had been my Sunday school teacher I might have stayed. Best podcast ever.
But why stay if it’s still a fabrication?
This was the funniest and most informative mind blowing episode of Mormon Stories, straight up. Soooo happy to just be on once a month with John Larsen! It's only getting better from here too!
You bring comic relief to the show. Which is needed when you're talking about somewhat depressing stuff.
Please Remind John " AKA Big Boss" of this.
Ok little boss?
You are the secret sauce
He’d better make good on his promise to teach us how to shave our balls next time 🤦♂️😂😂😂
I do not get why there is such a focus on weird stuff like celestial births. I mean hardly any mormon believes in it (at least not the people I know) but more important: it is counter doctrinal since the scripture says that intelligence cannot be created but existed forever. That clearly indicates that "father" (refering to god) cannot be a "biological" creater.
The whole Plan of Happiness makes much more if intelligence are as fundamental as matter (energy) in a metaphysical sense. Because then Plan of Salvation would be logical game theory solution. (Prison Dilemma with infinite games) and thus giving a meaning to a cosmological nihilism.
Try try rr
Thank you, John Larsen, for pointing out the idea that, if we’re all exalted (my husband and I, our siblings, all of our descendants, all of our ancestors) then that completely blows apart the idea that we will be living together as family units in eternity. I have thought about that idea many times and never heard it discussed anywhere at church. I always wondered if I was the only one who had thought it through that much. I never dared bring it up because I had been given funny looks in gospel doctrine class for other shelf-book questions I asked.
I asked some Mormon missionaries about it once and...they were stumped. Especially from the point of view of modern Mormons who have come to emphasize the nuclear family (including the missionary message about "eternal families" that focuses so much on the nuclear family), there are a lot of things that don't add up if you think about it too much.
I pointed out that in a properly sealed up nuclear family, the mom is sealed into her husband's family and their daughters (if they have more than one daughter) will be sealed into their husbands' families, and if those daughters' husbands are from different families, each daughter then will be going off to separate families. So the picture of the perfect, eternally happy nuclear family unit sealed together as a family unit forever (as depicted in the typical "forever family" Mormon propaganda) doesn't really explain how anything could possibly really work in a system of multi-generational sealings.
At the end of the conversation, the two missionaries basically figured that in the Celestial Kingdom it would really be like one huge extended family and Celestialized folks would basically be able to visit wherever and whomever they wanted. I mentioned that this kind of made the highly specific individual-by-individual family sealings (for both living and dead) kind of pointless.
The missionaries just shrugged and kind of mumbled that they could see how someone could see things that way. (And as is the case with most half-baked Mormon doctrinal innovations, they invoked the belief that the details would be explained and make sense in the afterlife.)
@team_poseidon
Your interpretation of everybody being one HUge Everybody Family is exactly how I envisioned the Celestial Kingdom, and the ability to visit the other territories including mortal areas.
@@nolavee3477I brought this up to my Mormon aunt when I like 13.
🤯
Asking the tough questions like, “does God take a dump?” LOL! Favorite episode so far
I am slowly making my way through the John Larsen episodes and I LOVE them all! But this one is my favorite!
I haven't laughed this hard in years! John's "spreadsheet" and his numbers were just priceless! What I would give for a transcript of this!
John Larsen has nailed it. He understands what these high demand religions are all about. It's power and money, but mostly power. Power gives you control over people, and that's what these leaders want.
That's what all the organized religions want……..
It's like my old stepdad, a disaffected Mormon used to say . "They're just people who think they were born to tell the rest of us what to do "
Never Mormon here I often watch and no I have no idea why! Great to see Carah.
I am a recently shelf broken deconstructing exmormon. I have appreciated what you do, John. Both of you. And Carah. And Jenn. And Gerardo. And everyone else who helps create content to spread truth, disburse lies, and aid in deconstruction. Thank you. I can't say it enough.
I always look forward to the John Larsen episodes here. They are great! Insightful, funny, and healthy expressions of anger.
I hope you are doing ok. I'm in a weird place too. Trying to figure this out and there's so much... I'm constantly scratching my head. Things just don't make sense. Feeling lost.
@@robriley6804 Very understandable. I am figuring things out, I think. But right at the beginning it was pretty crazy and confusing. All the best!
Super excited to have you back Carah. Even though I only recently realized you were there and then left. Love you 3 together. Perfection!
As a father Mavens comments broke my heart! I don’t ever want my daughters to feel that way itbut once again confirmed leaving was the right choice!!!
4:32pm I have been LDS for 10 years. I enjoy all the podcasts. Nancy Robertson
I’m laughing so hard. John Larsen you ROCK
Quote of the year, “the casual cruelty of mormonism towards those who don’t conform to the standard is only visible to those who don’t conform to the standard”. So…SO true
john Larson is a great person. 👍 I'm a recovering Mormon and agree with John. Finally a person who speaks the truth.
The longer I listened the more I think this is the best podcast I’ve ever listened to! It deserves a podcast Pemmy or Poscar!
Indeed. I know JD has said maybe 1/4 of subscribers are never-mo, me bring one. I listen to almost every upload, and I’ve never been Mormon. I was introduced to cultural Mormonism in 1997 when I worked for a company headquartered in SLC and from that sprung an obsession with high demand religious movements and cults.
I love how John still knows these songs after so many years
I’ve said this a couple times in Mormon Stories comment sections: I don’t know that I can say I’m happier outside Mormonism, but I know the truth now, and that is a very satisfying feeling.
A good analogy would be Neo and the red pill. The extra-Matrix or “real” world was not great, but he knew the truth, and that was invaluable.
This is valuable insight to me. I’m not sure if I’m happier now, but at least I’m not deluded by some 19th century fantasy writer’s idea of “salvation”.
@@littlebee5048 Yup. Honestly, it also comes down to something as simple as how we define “happiness.” Can living in a naive, very closed minded community be complete bliss? Well sure it can. The thought of being together with family forever, being a god, having your own planet, etc. can create strongly euphoric experiences/feelings. But it’s also fake, so is it really happiness?
This has been my favorite episode. I left the church 25 years ago and found recently that I was still experiencing it's damage especially on my self esteem and marriage.
It's been a huge often heavy path to work through. So much logic with so much irreverence was so healing and freeing. Thank you for reminding me that even if the church is true it's highest heaven sounds like torture and I'd happily take my chances in outer darkness.
That is very similar to my path. I had a very slow burn departure and never processed any of it properly. This podcast has been helping me do it now, 15 years later than I should have. But better late than never!
This is amazing work! “Heaviness” is the best way to try to explain the burden of doubt. I am in my 40s now but I remember going to my bishop when I was a teenager and asking him. What am I missing? Why don’t I feel what other members felt? Is there something wrong with me? And his response was you don’t feel close to God because you’re sinning too much. That was it. There is this theme of you are bad and god is constantly pissed off and distant and cold, etc…. I have a new life now and recently had a vision that the LDS god is not real. He had to die in my mind for me to find who God really is. It was incredible to see that Jesus is real and the God of the Mormon church is not real. And God has been giving me blessings ever since I saw this vision because he is rebuilding my trust. Which is incredible and amazing that he would even care about my fear of trusting in him. I love our community. It’s nice to hear from people who “get it”
Great episode
I follow mormon stories from cochabamba Bolivia South america
John Larsen’s impassioned speeches always leave me feeling inspired!
EXPLOSIVE!!!
It's always a banger when John Larsen gets warmed up. Glad to see Carah in this space as well.
When I listen to John Larsen in this awesome podcast I realize that the endless cycle of breeding and suffering of the plan of "salvation" is actually a reality for so many Mormons I know today. They are having so many children, disowning some of those children and perpetuating pain and suffering through all of their children. Instead, we could stop, think and solve problems with love and respect for all humanity.
So good to see you Carah
As an anthropologist, I enjoyed this episode very much 😂😂😂
I’m so happy to see Carah! You totally make Mormon stories GREAT again! 😂 You’re the best Carah!!!!
Carah, JD, John, and Jenn! It doesn't get much better than this.
Hellz ya!
Yes! And Maven, too, I loved her contribution to this podcast.
OMG this episode has been so healing just from the sheer laughter. I was literally laughing out loud while on the bus to work this morning. But also… very important topic to logically think about since “salvation” is the basis of the fear that gets instilled in people to not leave the church. And yeah…. If that’s my salvation… (covenant path)…. hard pass
Oh come on Renea. You know you want to go into labor 3853032 bajillion times. You seem like someone who is up for the challenge. When I look up the definition of "Bring it on", there's a picture of you. Now how do you explain that?
@@mylesmarkson1686 I mean… what’s not to like …. And while it sounds super inviting …. PASS and then PASS AGAIN
@@ruthie8726 Thanks Ruthie, but I have no idea what that means.
Go Jon Larson! I love seeing Carah back! There are great things happening in our worlds.
John Larsen may very well be my very favorite person ever. 😄
Me too.
Instant classic. This rivals John Larson's "How to Build a Transoceanic Vessel" (Mormon Expression, Episode #276).
All the questions I grew up thinking and was told we would figure out someday ...
How is that working for you? 🥲
a lot of people mention the ME episode "how to build a transoceanic vessel," and for good reason, but i think this one is even better. this breakdown of how the plan of salvation is supposed to work, it shows how the entire concept is bonkers.
So glad Carah is back 💜🌈
How did I miss this?! CZcams didn’t notify me. Sad day. So glad Carah is back
So much great discussion!! Thank you all!!
Listening for the second time. Tears. Can't breathe. 😅
Have been meaning to watch this one for a while, 2 weeks late here. Laughed out loud several times through this. Thanks Carah, John, and John.
Love these John Larsen chats and totally agree not down on people….institutions are fair game!
Love Love LOVE This episode!!!! The interview with Maven was my favorite "Mic Drop" part. I love how she and John Larsen and Carah summed up their epic answers. I love you guys!! Thanks again John Dehlin for another AMAZING show!!!!
Thank you for bringing up all these questions and problems I had for years, including the biological ones. I was studying biology at university when I got baptized, so that led me to wanting an explanation for all these issues about how the body will function. But I was also led to believe that I would find out one day.
Also about how it would be better to have never been born or to have died before the age of 8, cos then I would have gone straight to the Celestial Kingdom, but now I and everybody else, risk not getting there by screwing up in one of the many ways we can screw up (such as not being able to overcome an addiction). I had to just ignore these issues if I wanted to stay sane!
Yay! So happy to see Carah back!!
Made my day seeing all 3 of you together. Cheers friends.
I have said the same thing where processed Mormons DO act like heroin addicts. My mother in particular. My siblings and I are just starting to have these open conversations and IT IS liberating! Thank you all so much for these highly important conversations. Mormons truly act like non-Mormons are non-human. Our mother has traumatized at least 4 out of 5 of us and even worse by her conditional treatment based on who is Mormon and who isn't. Our older sister is still a "member" but her eyes might be the easiest to open given the right timing.
Best Episode Ever
I had an abusive ex who was an exmo (closeted) in a family of current LDS members. He told me a story about how just before his 8th birthday he took a whole bottle of vitamins (thinking they’d be like pain killers) trying to unalive himself because he thought if he didn’t die before 8 he’d never get to the celestial kingdom because of how violent and unfaithful his mother was being at the time. He was pretty manipulative, so I have no idea if he was being honest, but based on how many exmo members I know who say they wished for years they’d passed before 8 I believe him.
The other head scratcher that I contemplated in my youth was…our DNA comes from our earthly parents. We’re exactly 50% our father and 50% our mother genetically. If our spirit looks exactly like our physical body, then our Heavenly Parents somehow “spiritually birthed” us with our earthly DNA prior to our ourselves and our progenitors being born physically!??
People would tell me that this is how we know which families we're supposed to be in. Which is also problematic, especially for adoptive families.
I’m soooooo happy to see Carah back! Please don’t leave us again!!!
This is one of the best episodes ever
I am ao happy! I heard this episode on autoplay ane was laughing so hard and then couldn't find it. So i HAD to watch every episode on the playlist until I found it 😊
This episode was hilarious! It totally brought be back to some discussions I remember back in Sunday school, trying so hard to make sense of things that you can't make sense of.
When my son was 4 yrs old we were reading the bom...when we got to Omni he said "wait, stop mum, does anyone actually end up happy in this book?" 😂😂😂...we stopped and have never picked it up again 😂 We went to church and he whispers to me during sacrament..."hey mum, don't u want me to be happy?"😂😂😂... we've never been back😂
"out of the mouths of babes" as they say
Yep they know don’t they well done. On another note our 7yo bored during scripture study made her own verse up and apparently her verse said Moses took the people to the airport to catch a plane so…..
Yay yay, the crew is back! More collabs and visits in the future please! 🥰
Good to see you back. ❤️
I feel so vindicated that I'm not the only one to have seen Mormon Jesus as someone throwing Lucifer under the bus after leaving! WOW! Loving this! ❤
So if Satin did what he was intended to do, did he receive exaltation?
Did not expect this episode to be so hilarious! I laughed out loud countless times.
Fantastic !!
"It is easy to get good people to do good things and good people sometimes do bad things. But to get bad people to do good things you need religion." The constant emphasis on happiness in the hereafter has the saddest effect in that the people in the church are often ignoring happiness and truth in this life with so much concentration on life after death.
Yes thats what I hate about religion, it is dehumanizing. My mom says she can't wait to go to heaven. She is healthy, mid 60s with healthy children and grandchildren
Pay John Larsen double!
🦋🦋🦋 im just not sure how i feel about all this. Im not a Mormon nor am i an ex- Mormon. Now i was brought up in a cult. ( Not sure you are familiar with it, but I bet you are! I grew up in the Worldwide Church of God)I was involved in it til at the age of 27 and the changes came about. By the time I was 30 i was going and involved in a “Splinter Group”. Around the age of 35 i was no longer apart of that group either.
My mom taught it before we were able to attend “church”. We started going to church when I was 5 years old. I loved the fact we went church. It did however take some time for me to get used to the way they held services and how quiet and still i had to be. Unreal for any children.
Anyway with all the different studies I did and at the beginnings of the changes in WCG I just took to the Bible as my learning/study guide. Usually the NIV and the NKJ and some in the KJ and NLT.
With all that being said … i just don’t really know what I feel about what John Larsen is saying. I hear what he is reading and saying especially in the Holy Bible, but I’m not sure how i feel about his interpretation. I know he has so much more knowledge in a lot of this than i do. Im gonna have to go back and listen to the scriptures write them down and read them for myself. I know several things he has said make sense, but not sure how much sense it really makes to me.
Thank all 3 of you for putting this out there… its (hopefully) gonna show me things in a different light either way 🙃
Hence I do understand that he is reading from the book of Mormon and mostly talking about a lot of what Mormon’s teach.
🦋🦋🦋
No joke, the single question that started the entire deconstruction of my own faith was, “is there a ‘why’ behind the deepest doctrines of the plan of salvation?” As in, if I look at at the entire framework and structure for this doctrine, is there a clear answer for why things have to be this way? In the end, I found no motivation behind the plan of salvation and it led to an even more existentially nihilistic view in my opinion.
Why...would you ask such a question? (Just kidding.) Seriously, that's a good point. A lot of children go through a phase where they are constantly pestering their parents with "why" questions. That's the questioning phase that many parents have the hardest time with, so they usually answer "just because". That's basically all you'll ever get from Mormon leaders too.
JD's question (around 2:30) about whether it's disrespectful to talk about the church this way, and the resulting answers to that question, were on 🔥!
Love the energy in this ep
Another great ep featuring my Comrade John Larsen
I so love you John Larsen! You are the BEST🥰❤️❤️❤️
OMG! Straight up critical thinking at its best! So good! So good!
RFM last week, now another John Larsen and also Carah? I must be living right.
I had the same thought--this is some quality shit!
This was amazing for so many reasons! Great job y'all!
"Infinite Spiritual Juice" got me. And then Wolverine/Dead Pool. 😂
Mind blown! If I even brought up part of this to my TBM family, they would just say “oh well we don’t understand everything now, but we will in the afterlife-and don’t forget that there is no end to time and space, so there will always be room for more and more gods and worlds.” So many mind gymnastics. I guess it’s okay that so many people will suffer. That’s the plan according to Mormonism.
2:32:01 thank you John Larsen!!!!!
All the x-mo rockstars! Love ya'll
I think it's safe to say that the church does help create "peaceful" people but also people who tend to be pleasers and the type who easily look the other way while bad things are happening
Peaceful people like Lori + Chad daybell, rubie franke, jodi hildebrant, Mark hoffman
I’m still busting up over rickets
I havn't laughed so hard for years!!
Mormons are fascinating. The magical thinking, folk magic and supernatural beings is just bonkers. I have zero religion and know little about all of the Mormon doctrines/theology. With that said, according to physics, time is only experienced as linear by those of us here in corporeal bodies. So... time... past, present and future occur simultaneously beyond our comprehension. For any "God" or "spiritual beings" time, could not be experienced as we do. Why Mormons would imagine spirts take up physical space is weird or why any spiritual being would want a meat body is ludicrous. My 2 cents listening to this informative conversation. Super interesting. Thanks
I freaking love you Cara!
Thanksssss.
My favorite episode ever! Congratulations to the three of you.
Hahahaha this is gold. It all comes apart like a cheap 2 dollar t shirt.
You've got to do this more often. The 3 of you swearing and analysing Mormonism is sooooooo good.
I'll watch the next one with a couple of rums. As always good work MS.
Would be interesting if John Larsen did a podcast on the history of the Mormon Polynesian settlement in Iosepa (Skull Valley) UT.
@1:40 or so- exalted beings as parents- no thought for their children’s suffering; no empathy. Hmmm reminds me of Chad, Lori, Ruby, and Jody. I can see why they would not feel bad inflicting torture on their children. So many are deemed expendable in this planet.😰🤬
Oh, my Zeus! This is brilliant!
John's humorous insight that Mormon theology is a justification for a system of slavery and suffering is really insightful, almost like it was invented by imperial invaders or/ colonialists.
Just a moment to wonder, I am old enough to remember David I McKay, Hugh B Brown, J Ruben Clarke, N Eldon Tanner, and others who at the time were awe-inspiring, but todays first presidency all seem to be continually upset and pushed off at all of us and seem they cannot speak to us without chastising the members
So I was really late to the party on this DELIGHTFUL conversation. When it comes to the horrors of an eternal afterlife, even for a divine eternal being, I highly recommend the short story "The Last Answer" by Isaac Asimov. This first opened my eyes to the ramifications and eventual, unavoidable, and perpetual horror of infinite consciousness.
My guess is that an infinite consciousness would have an infinite variety of ways to keep itself entertained (which may explain this joke of a world) and feel wonderful whenever it wanted to feel wonderful. Asimov's take may be valid, but if there is such a thing as an infinite consciousness I would tend to discount to the point of worthlessness any attempt to understand the ramifications of such consciousness by way of projecting into eternity the feelings and perceptions of human consciousness (including all of the physical body and physical world phenomena that shape and influence it) and then imagining how it would feel if it just went on forever.
I love this! You three are brilliant!!!!!
The pain of losing your whole world view IS the most painful thing!
OMG. Love having Cara visit!
Thanks!
Also, love having Carah back on!
LOL I hadn’t heard the word Rickets in decades!
Love it.
I'm glad to see Carah back. I absolutely understand her frustration after the Rod Meldrum episodes, he was given free reign to repeat the same racist and homophobic nonsense for hours on end and had an incredibly smug and condescending tone the entire time. I would've rage quit halfway through.
I agree with you Joshua. I’m a NeverMo, but when Rod started spewing his BS, I stopped listening.
I still support MS every month. I want more John Larson- he is brilliant and entertaining. 👏🏻
I knew I couldn’t listen to Rod and when I heard Carah later that evening I just wanted to hug her❤️
I agree with Carah. I couldn’t listen after about five minutes in. I hated the way he kept looking back at Carah as if challenging her to respond. I would have left if I was Carah. Either that or go all out ridiculing his ridiculous ideas.
I would say that the value in that is that the leading proponent of a line of thinking and belief that is quite influential among TBMs is now fully on the record, in his own words, for anyone to examine in detail. It's a valuable contribution to the historical record and I appreciate MS for doing those kinds of things, even though I'm sure that it wasn't a fun time.
I had a Mormon co-worker who once told me about the celestial heavens after telling me she was a Christian too. I am under the impression that you don't have babies and you do have Jesus in the Terrestrial heaven. I told her that is where I want to be, I don't want to be pregnant for the great of eternity..doesn't sound like Heaven to me,..Be with their family forever.??.yes I think of a lot of things like that can not be justified ( illogical) because of what they say they believe..and you never hear them address that!! There is a new Jesus for every planet they start when they get their own planet..that thought goes along with being with your family forever!!