(Race) Car Steering Forces EXPLAINED!
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- čas přidán 24. 10. 2019
- Using a little bit of vehicle dynamics and practical tests in the simulator to explain the major factors that combine into the 'steering feel' of your real or virtual (race) car.
- Hry
This is the single most informative video I have ever seen on sim racing (and I guess real racing too). Seeing the theory alongside the practical demonstrations really helped explain everything, at least to me anyway.
You’re an absolute treasure to the sim racing community, Niels!
Welcome to neil's channel
DISCLAIMER: While Automobilista as evidenced by this video does its Force Feedback quite physically correct and complete, I have no idea if the other sims do it the same way. It could be argued that the more adjustments and sliders you have to adjust your FFB, the less likely it is to be physically correct.
DISCLAIMER2: My tire forces are the wrong way round when talking about how self aligning torque produces steering forces, nobody picked that up yet. Doesn't change the fundamentals though (just inverts it)
same what Minolin from acc said... great video btw...
Well said. Less is better.
e.g. FFB settings in R3E are kinda overkill.
@@ErnieGaming I'm actually watching this to see if I can improve the vertical/lateral/understeer mix there. Funny, isn't it - AMS is great from the word go and we know R3E settings will never get there even if I work on it a bit more...
@@Atticvs32 I still think, that you only need ingame settings for FFB gain, minimum torque and perhaps filtering/smoothing. That's it. All the other stuff should come right from the physics.
@@ErnieGaming That's what I did at first (no smoothing either), but surprisingly enough if I set both vertical and lateral to 0%, I got no tyre effect at all! Only what Niels described at the beginning of this video - the weight effect. It was funny. Based on the controller file R3E asks for a 'balance' of vertical and lateral (and the diff between the two) and you must set at least one of the two higher than 0%. I kept vertical at 0.0 (it's just a road effect multiplier after all, Niels says you don't feel it separately) and lateral on the default 60%. Adding to that, I just copied what controller parameter values I could from AMS (both AMS and R3E are gMotor games after all), so I set the 'Low Force Boost' line to 0.69444 ('steer force exponent' in the files), the understeer line to 0.55 (was 0.6 by default, so R3E got it pretty close) and the max force output line to 1.8. No vibrations, no stationary effects, etc. Not even minimum force - with the Low Force Boost, my G920 is rattling at the center even with the dampened center in AMS. (But I need the non-linear FFB to feel such a weak wheel; Niels, David Tucker from iRacing and the default Kunos gammas all say the same.) In the end, I got a surprisingly nice and 'raw' force feedback - for your average R3E level at least, AMS is still much better, of course.
As a retired Hd of Automotive Engineering, I learned most of the design dynamics too many years ago and have forgotten much of it - so thanks massively for the refresh!
Now an enthusiastic gamer I'm about to upgrade my new SIM Lab rig to include a Fanatec CSW and - yes - Heusinkveld pedals. (Stretching the pension budget but what the heck!)
So catching your video now is great timing for me.
As somebody else suggested, gaming needs more articulate genuine experts like you (instead of those who say a lot, without saying anything useful).
Thank you - very much Neils.
I am researching steering design for FSAE vehicles and this is an incredible video. Thank you for this.
Thanks! There should be some tire data available for most FSAE tires, so you should have some idea of aligning torque. I would absolutely try to make a mathematical model with the trail, pneumatic trail but also jacking if you are going to use some real caster and scrub radius. Steering loads can be quite high on a FSAE car, because of how fast the steering rack tends to be made.
I loved every single mod you made on RFactor. And now as a engineering student working on a solar car suspension and steering system I can't thank you enough for this video. From Sim Racing to real life automotive engineering. Thanks!
Great video here
The simple information that the most grip is past the max force was a real breakthrough for me. I was always shying away from going over that point, while in fact you have to go just a tad over it and then balance the car at that point. That simple hint alone jumped me up in irating by at least 500 points.
It depends a lot on the suspension geometry as well, and perhaps power steering systems complicate things further. There could be cars where most of the FFB is gone at peak grip, or ones where it pretty much keeps building up the further you steer due to extreme caster angles for example.
What's really surprised me is that I am indeed yawning when I watched to 11:58. Yes, professor Heusinkveld you got me.
This was hilarious! I was laughing out loud throughout!!! 😂 super helpful detail to understand steering load which I was most interested in!!! Thank you
14:15 Mind blown! Always thought exceeding Self Aligning Torque force was going too far.
Need to reprogram my brain with this information and add more turn.
Could be, could also depend on the car. You can make a suspension where the steering force peaks probably around the point where the maximum grip is reached.. The track BMW 325i I drove last year went completely numb past ~60 degrees of steering though, certainly before it hit peak grip.
Me too!!! Mind blown by this video as well
Thank you professor H for taking the time to educate us. I really felt like I learned something this morning!
Thanks so much for putting this video together! Even after years of sim racing, this video took my understanding to a whole new level of how the different forces work together (and corrected some misunderstandings I didn't even know I had!) and has made it much easier to dial in my wheel now.
Absolutely fantastic video call thank you so much.
I learned a LOT by this 1 hour !! much in contrary to all the discussions in the forums I read by many days
thanks Niels for great explanations and examples.
Very informative and well explained. Thanks Powerpoint Niels and Sim Niels!
Incredibly informative! Thanks a bunch for making this!
Absolutely amazing. This video is the best I've seen so far regarding racing in general.
Thank you so much for your patience and for sharing your great knowledge with us for free. Even if it's a marketing strategy it must have took you a lot of time and effort to consolidate everything.
Thanks and congratulations for the amazing work. I can alredt use this knowledge to get faster lap times!
Pretty much, the whole shabang ! Thanks for your hard work !
That was an aswesome explanation, thanks!
Thank you sir for your work.
Very informative!! Many things learned to apply in real life as well
Thank you very much for your lecture 👍
Gold! Thank you! 🍻
Great video especially for people like me who also tries and works on vehicle simulation to be as faithful as possible to the real thing.
Huge job right there, thank you. I gained and improved good amount of knowledge there and got good dircetions what to study more.
I am very interested in influence on steering forces from rear end overturning - oversteer. It would be interesting to get a look on it in a bit more detail separately some day. Makes sense if during oversteer rear slip influences front slip and this causes increase or decrease of SAT, because as it was mentioned - car is a rigid body and it does not have a hinge in the center.
But I think there is something more subtle going on when car is gaining yaw rotation. And it does make a difference for if you should let steering align itself alone into a slide of oversteer, or you should add your own steering effort to fine balance the steering to maintain desired direction of motion. It gets complex as caster gets mixed up with kingpin inclination, and scrub radius, and gyroscpic forces, and.... But the most interesting thing is how much immune are the front slip angles from change due to rear end overturning ? I get that at huge speed and with heavy wheels gyroscopic forces can get very strong, and that great amount of caster makes for strong self aligning during oversteer, but it still seems strange when I do increase caster with some cars and I already can feel significant self aligning even with minimal rear end slip (happens with some cars/simulations).
It all seems a bit of a mess in my message, because it is a mess in my head. But I guess good starting point would be learnign how does increase of caster affect increasing reaction to oversteer. Sometimes I think that peak force of alignment should increase, but not come much earlier with tiniest slip angle of rear wheels, but it is just a notion, I can't find a way how to base it. It also feels annoyingly runing dynamics of some cars, as some feels like it would be appropriate to use pedals more for steering, but the strong and super immediate FFB response forbids using pedals to influence yaw rotation, as steering is just proactive, and I don't even say that SAT decrease with little bit of yaw, but it feels to instantly reverse whic hfeels so wrong to my mind. Unfortunately simracers seems to like proactive steering responses, so I have a bit of conspiracy theory about some developments of my own (which is probably wrong) :D
Really entertaning, and I learned a few things! :)
Awesome, thanks for sharing!!
I appreciate the 30% I understood.. So useful.. Got me doing deep research about some physics topics.. The unveiling of the deep science behind sims is my religion.. Topics like this should be given credit and appreciation and not the promotions of selling a new car or livery you see all over CZcams or forums.
Can you please do a part 2 that breaks down the same concepts but in easier English? At least I've seen 2 requests other than me. Please?
Thank you this was very helpful
Awesome video!
Excellent video. What I found especially useful was the scrub radius / Caster interaction with the kart.
Small note though: when you draw the line along the Caster axis to a point on the ground, the moment arm isn't actually the distance from that point to the lateral force centerline. It's the distance from the axis to the lateral force centerline. So if you were to draw a perpendicular line from the Caster axis to said centerline, it would not be parallel to the ground. It's not a huge difference with small angles, but the error does grow as the angle increases.
To clarify: the mechanical trail is '60' in the image behind the link, not '63.1'.
i1.wp.com/files.iclippy.com/4535381/1301540264.jpg
Thanks so much for making this! Super informative. (And fun to watch too :-))
Great video as ever Niels! The only thing I don't agree with is that a locked tyre has zero lateral force. From my understanding a locked tyre produces force in the opposite direction of travel. If you're sliding sideways then the tyre will generate lateral force, even if its locked, and you should still feel this through the steering system.
Although, to clarify, you wouldn't feel any self-aligning torque from a locked tyre (no pneumatic trail), but you should still feel the self-aligning effects from mechanical trail I believe.
Simracing FFB will evolve when games/wheels A) use torque-based control instead of speed and/or position based, B) use a passive (ie. reactive) system instead of an active system, "C" move away from Microsoft Direct Input. "A" & "C" are possible but take a lot of work while "B" may be impossible but I've seen some industrial designs that are at-least a "semi"-passive system.
The higher power FFB used, the more the flaws of today's dated fundamental FFB (regardless of game) are noticed. There are sort of "band-aids" to try and at-least somewhat improve things like damping, friction, slew-rate, inertia, smoothing filters/limiters (and other types) but those usually have their own set of compromises. In the end, it's almost impossible to replicate a passive system using an active system (and even more-so when that active system is only speed and/or position controlled) especially when dealing with all sorts of high forces and such a large & highly dynamic range of forces like in racing (especially the higher power you go).
My general simracing/gaming FFB technology rant aside, this a great video and thank you very much for taking the time to do this.
Thanks Niels. Just before watching your video i was driving the 962c around the Nordschleife in rF2 and curious what the real steering forces in non power-steering cars like that must be. Huge tyres with lots of downforce combined with rather small steering-wheels should be the ultimate reason for non-maneuverability, but from the onboards it doesn't look like it's harder than shifter-karts, probably less. And on the other hand there's the Vee or 70's F1 with rather low steering forces according to sims and i guess they should be a lot higher. Your video explains a lot, but i miss the part that explains why those differences exists like from caster.
Very interresting how the software is calculating the forces.
But, I thought that by designing a good suspension system, the tire forces should always be sensible in the steering, so the driver is able to feel the grip.
Therefore the "Caster" setting - which moves the pivot point in front of the contact patch - has to give this "trail" x "lateral tire force" result to the drivers senses.
If you have to rely on your visuals to estimate the remaining reserves that your tire has, you would be totally lost - that is my opinion at least.
Yeah, steering geometry and steering forces is crazy. Especially on bikes.
Thank you! :-)
Thank you, Niels, for a truly informative video! I'm going to have to watch several more times before I feel that I really get it. A question; is KIP the same as camber? Thanks again
Hey ! Awesome video !! Very informative, I love it !!
I would like to hear your opinion about iracing's FFB. It's often being critiqued and I'd like the opinion from somebody who is very knowledgeable on the subject !
Thank you !!
Edit: Well, the ''you can misinterpret FFB going down as understeer, but you might still have grip'' is a revelation... gained 1s on porsche cup on Montreal circuit :D
I wanna see more of that shifter ;)
Really a worth watching content 🙌🏻 . All internal points which no reference book teaches you were explained
Question: Ackerman/Anti -ackerman/pro Ackerman which one is optimum fir high speed cornering and what the calculations involved in calculating steering wheel torque?
I think a lot of the time, Ackermann isn't a huge deal. At high speed there is effectively no significant difference in the turn radius for the inside and outside tires. Maximum speed cornering unloads the inside wheel considerably, in some cars it is even off the ground, so its impact on overall grip and feel is quite small. When parking the car at 5kmh, or in city driving, you probably feel a more naturally rolling car at big steering angles when it has Ackermann steering. Maybe for racing there is a tiny effect, adjusting the inside tire slip angle slightly and thus changing its heating and maybe grip properties just a little. I'm sure in F1 that matters.
maybe the guys at iRacing should be watch this video
Hi Niels love your videos and everything you say makes sense but I have a question for you... In all sims there is hardly any steering force when you pull out the pits then it will load up the faster you go Into corners. But in real life when I've raced go karts the steering is at the heaviest when your going slow pulling out the pits but actually gets easier the faster you go. Can you explain that?
39:20 Niels says 'jacking forces'
Alternate title “Steering Wheels React” :P
Awesome! I lost him after the 15th minute! :D (Watched it all though! )
Jep, me too
De oplettende lezertjes! Ik ga weer Marten Toonder lezen...
Great video. Thanks for that. One question: At 10:42 you talk about slip angle and trail. If you apply a slip angle greater than 8° can trail go lower than zero and switch to the other side of wheel center?
Half a year late.. Yes, in fact it seems in most cases it goes slightly negative at some point. I have no idea why, but most data tends to show this.
Hi Niels - I'm thinking about adding a minimal damping to my FFB setup. I'm thinking about setting both coefficient and saturation to ~0.1 in the Controller.ini. Do you think this is a good idea? Or does the engine take care of damping via the gyroscopic forces all right? I'm using a G920, so I'm very much afraid to go too high on damping. But most people say the resistance makes slides more controllable. What do you think?
The G920, if it is anything like the G27 and G25 (which it probably is), feels quite damped and frictiony by itself, not to mention quite weak. I probably wouldn't use damping on a wheel like that. But as this is subjective, feel free to try. I doubt you'd feel 0.1, just try 1.0 first to see if it actually does something for your wheel, then dial it back..
I tried to explain this stuff multiple times via written word only, but somehow I always ended up with loads of question marks over people's heads. Hopefully a picture will paint a thousand words.
Edit:
10:30 Niels, you drew the slip angle falsely here. The angle should cross at the center line of the tyre, thus as a result that the pneumatic trail actually trails behind that crossing point at the center line.
I saw somewhere that pneumatic trailing could be a result of tire frictional forces + cornering force resulting in offset resultant force. The reason why pneumatic trail moves forward as slip angle increases is that sliding portion of a cantact patch increases, and the part which still develope static friction is shrinking towards center, thus cornering forces also moves towards center.
But I am also under opinion that there is something not totally right, shouldn't cornering force point to the center of the turn radius, not out of it ? Tire is basically a rope that pulls into the center when driving in a curve.
Why is it self aligning torque, when the wheel puls in the direction you turned it manually in the first place? Is the image right at 17.00 minutes?
Are there any code samples to calculate it in game? I understand the concepts but coding it seems difficult.
Thanks for the video! rally great! In what sim you can do all this? I would love to play with all this physics.
This is Automobilista (version 1) available on Steam.
Great video, but still unaswered question for me, how much effects, really important for driving, i am loosing on my g25? When i play AMS1 i think i feel all this effects and happy with FFB. Then i play AMS2, i miss some tyre feeling but it seems ok. In over sims i find my ffb is not enought for fast competitive racing. But i don't really care about over sims. Lets say for AMS one, is any forces, that i completely miss on G25?
And another moment, it is a option someware in AMS1 config files. Something about ffb prediction value. Does it really helps to compesate speed difference betwen DD and no DD?
Thanks! The 'prediction' parameter is for the old RF1 style force feedback that we don't use, so it doesn't affect anything. I used a G25 and was happy with it, but you're simply not getting the speed and torque of more modern wheels, I would find it pretty hard to drive with a G25 nowadays. A modern direct drive, even if it is just say an 8Nm model, would completely destroy the G25.
@@NielsHeusinkveldThanks for answer, and also special thanks for your supercars cristmas edition mod. Every car from you is like a gift. On youtube i saw some serios australian supercars ams league, so this new cars made by their demand or just for over fans? I saw they use standart ams supercars with some new car models (i guess?), but are they going to use your new mod?
First, thanks for the video, lots of good info. But...
At 17:30 your diagram seems to suggest that SAT is acting in the direction of the tire heading, not against it? You say that you'll have to apply a right steering wheel force to oppose the SAT - but that can't be right or the steering would align itself to full lock!
Surprised this was missed with all the other detail... unless i'm missing something?
Yes I accidentally inverted a few arrows, good you picked it up!
@@NielsHeusinkveld Glad to know I wasn't going crazy!
Follow up question: could you make a video showing some of the basics of how you're playing with the rFactor car configurations to do this testing? Or maybe there are other resources you'd recommend for that info?
Am I missing something or do you have the torque direction wrong at around 16:24? This torque would turn the wheels further into the corner and be the exact opposite of a self-aligning force?
That is correct. And I mean your comment is correct, and my arrows point in the wrong direction.
With the knowledge you have, what sim would you say is the most realistic, or do they all get these FFB physics correct nowadays? Also, should I avoid mod cars (assuming the modder didn't have this proper knowledge)?
Don't know! You kinda have to look under the hood to see what they do and don't. AMS is good as it passed the tests. I would assume RF2 is the same. RF1 and GSC lack accuracy in self aligning torque. AC has a few 'odd' options for tuning the FFB, but perhaps underneath all is correct. Somebody would have to create special 'mod' cars like I did that allow you to isolate the individual effects and see how each sim responds.. Can't really be done for some sims sadly!
@@NielsHeusinkveld Thank you sir! I currently have LFS, GSC, AMS, AC, ACC, rF, rF2, and iRacing. I got tired of paying for iRacing, and R3E and Project Cars didn't appeal to me in the long run for some reason. I prefer AC for the most part, but always wondered if I was missing out in the realism department. RF2 feels the most intimidating, like I would have to figure out mods all day just to get into it, because all my friends who use that sim rely on mods. But I don't implicitly trust mods to be properly designed for realism, so maybe AMS for when I want the most simple authentic experience out of the box.
@@DerekMoore82 Oh and modders can be better or worse than the original game creators. Some are a bit delusional in overestimating their knowledge while others will probably make the sims of tomorrow handle great! :-)
@@NielsHeusinkveld Good point, thank you sir! I recall there was a mod NSX in rFactor that was the best experience I've ever had in a sim. The drifting was amazing.
@@DerekMoore82 :) I just wanted to say, niels was also a modder back in the day. But then I saw your NSX comment, so you probably know :)
But yes the things with mods especially in rf2 can be pretty significant... some mods and cars (in rf2 you could say every car is a mod some are just from the rf2 team itself) some mods do a realy good job and some a realy poor.. and I think especially in rf2 the difference can be quite extreme since the physics engine is pretty complex from what you read, hear and also feel to a degree..
if all is done very good, rf2 can be amazing.. but on the otherhand I also came across so many bad mods there where it feels just like a total mess and you already get just from driving the first laps or turns that the mod is realy wrong because it behaves so strange nobody would ever design a car that drives like that... where it feels broken
AC on the otherhand has ofcourse also some mods that aren't so great but (and I think it is because the physics behind it are quite a bit simpler then rf2s) but has alot of mods that do at least feel ok... and some that are realy realy amazing and are on par or sometimes even better then Kunos own cars for AC.
So in generel you can't say just because it's a mod it doesn't have the quality. There are some modders out there that do ALOT of research and have ALOT of knowledge.
And the thing with the most realistic, well.. no sim is 100% realistic (wouldn't be a sim then because 100% is reallife :) ) they all to strange things in some moments here and there... some might be better in this but lack in that.. others a better in that but have trouble with this... some behave in that situation not as the other one and so on...
nowadays the basics are done right in every sim I would say... and the choice comes then down to flavor..
funny thing for example... back in the day with a g27 Iracing felt ok to me a bit loose but ok and I thought when I get a DD wheel someday it will all become better... well since I have a DD wheel.. I don't understand iracing anymore.. everytime I try it with a dd wheel.. I think something is wrong with my wheel setup... other sims feel great... ams is amazing with a DD wheel. .. rf2 too with good cars ... AC is ok (some cars amazing some ok) ACC is also ok ... (strangely I play mostly AC and ACC even I like the ffb from AMS and rf2 more)
but Iracing became a complete big questionmark to me... the only thing that feels correct there now is the lotus 79 that thing is alot of joy with a DD wheel.. but by most othercars I always think I my motor is tuned wrong or so... which might be the case since I drove it with a simucube2 at the sim expo and it felt great... but since my wheel does feel good at all the other sims.. I won't start to fiddle around in the granity software
Thanks for the video. However, I'm slightly disappointed that you didn't bring up the "seat of pants" effect that compensates for lack of G-forces sensed in your body in real life. Without a good motion rig, I'd take the "seat of pants" effect ahead of any other wheel simulation, since that's what I'm driving by in real life, both with car and motorcycle - I don't care much if the wheel or handlebars are numb. Sure, the forces you're talking about are realistic, but it doesn't "feel realistic" since I don't feel any G-forces in my body (nor compensation in my hands).
very interesting video, lots of info properly illustrated. i was wondering if you could then have consistent steering forces ffb only using info from the front tyres. i remember old pcars getting flak by not using rear tyres for its ffb (masked as sop parameters and other names) and how it was shit and that you couldnt feel oversteer according to some users. also acc now when they did the whole contact points to calculate forces they prioritized front tyres when addid extra points for ffb calculations to their contact patch.
small edit: also remembered that its said that iracing only uses steering rack for its ffb but as showed here how all the forces have an effect on the steering pignon? joint? then thats picking a result on one point insted of combininb forces from the source right? although it sounds like in the end they're doing the same.
I get lost in translation, can’t find a word for ‘trail’ to carry over into something I recognize. Help, anyone?
The only thing missing is the FFB caused by downforce. I use my sim to train racing drivers from a a series that have assisted steering banned and moderate high DF: although they like how similar to real life my FFB is, they say also point out that in high speed corners steering the real car is harder than in the sim. Im clueless on how to solve this...
In most sims I would assume this effect is 'automatic'.. So if the downforce is realistic, the tire pneumatic trail is realistic, then the added FFB from downforce would be a realistic amount. Of course you may need a 30Nm steering system to match a real car..
indeed, I have 25Nm but it rarely gets above 18 @@NielsHeusinkveld
that's what she said
it seems to be an international expression by now lol we say this currently quite often in the office, it fits in almost any situation, yeah that's.....
@@dubtube6691 Be careful, you can get stuck in a that's what she said loop which can be fatal.. ;-)
Awsome video and fantastic to have as a resource to link to people that ask about FFB !
I also think this video gives a good demonstration of why "non literal FFB" is so important for people that don't have motion rigs and want to still drive from "feel"
In real life one of the main things used from a drivers perspective to drive fast (or at least know what the car id doing) is the g forces through the bum to know if they are turning more / pushing the car more than what the tires can give because the moment the wheels give out on grip the g load on your bum/whole body decreases.
As you pointed out in a SIM with litrall steering FFB and with real cars , on a given car/setup you might have more grip available even when steering is light from FFB.
In short In real life you could hypothetically have no FFB from a wheel and you can feel through Gforces what the car is doing to then drive at the limit.
But in a SIM without Gforce emulating bladders / motion rig using telemetry, you potentially have nothing to feel where the usable limit is.
I'd also argue "non literal FFB" is even more important for people without DD wheels as consumer wheels often seem to get overwhelmed with more detailed ffb (playing RF2 with a g29 for example)
On the fence about this. It can be confusing in real life too even with the G forces as I experienced with the track days I did last year. Brain struggles to comprehend that the lighter steering does not mean grip isn't still going to increase a bit. Plus 'how' do you do it? It becomes subjective and artificial. That's mostly what I don't like, because you no longer 'just using physics', but adding some artistic impression on it. You would still need people to learn how to interpret these 'fake' FFB cues and just like motion, a lot of the time it may make little sense.. But I haven't used an entry level FFB wheel for ages so I guess them being so 'unrealistic', its almost pointless to try and throw physics based FFB at their tiny motors..
btw mr muscle .. I wanted to ask you this already but forgotten it.. but it fits here quite well.
Since you have so much trouble with th acc ffb... have you tried to dial in more caster (or less but I am sure more might be better with the things you don't like) in the setup ? I just tried the new porsche yesterday and had a similar experience where I thought.. I feel alot more whats going on with the old porsche... and thought what it could be and if the geometry is so extremely differend that I get this a bit unsatisfying feeling now.. At some point I thouhgt oh wait, the setups might use differend caster settings, looked at it and there you go.. it was 8,4 in the old and 6,something in the new... put it back to 8,4 and the feeling was much more in common.
So maybe if you haven't done already try to crank up the caster in your setup, maybe that is what you miss or at least it might get a little bit better so you might enjoy it a bit at least.
@@NielsHeusinkveld
I don't think "fake" is a good way to describe it as you would be driving the ffb from the telemetry.
Once you take gforces out of racing it's fundimently fake/abstract anyway.
I can see the argument to avoid negative training by implementing abstract systems from a pure SIM perspective. But at the same time vast majority of people are using this "Sims" as games / consumer entertainment.
I mean It's not like SIM Devs have 10,000 other things they would rather be doing that will likely effect the bottom line more 😅
I think the solution to lack of g feel is probably more likely to come from FFB wheel manufacturers the AF wheel has "foundation FFB" which I believe allows you to drive ffb from telimetary rather than the games normal ffb. Fanatec fanalabs software is adding more telimetary based FFB options as well.
From a player's perspective I think
A key thing that's needed is some sort of variation in forces in the wheel for front end grip and for that to be apparent even on low end wheels.
To be honest AMS , AC , RF2 all provide awsome highly detailed and variable FFB anyway with a DD and can be prity good even on the lower end wheels.
But it's not the case with all Sims and it seems there are different ffb philosophies and the different physics that then affect the ffb between the Sims so a player always has to learn each games FFB regardless.
@@NoNameLeft1500 Yes I have tried different caster settings. ACC FFB just makes me depressed 😆.
@@GamerMuscleVideos If I'm ever part of a new sim dev team in the future, it would be interesting to try some things out on this front. Now lemme get my shovel and find an oil field in my back garden..
I once played AC while high (made me much more perceptive) and I was driving the Audi R8 V10 Plus down and up Foxhole on Nordshcleife. As I got to the top I started braking and I could feel the weight of the car shift foward and move around as I was turning, I could feel exactly how much grip each tyre had and I could feel the suspension loading up, all that through a G27.
Not sure if that is tongue in cheek? Because my message is pretty much the exact opposite. It is very easy to think you feel specific things but you probably can't, and even less likely so with a G27! The only thing you can be sure of is having a big smile while enjoying the drive, but you can't separate 'suspension load' from all the other things that cause some steering forces..
@@NielsHeusinkveld I forgot to mention a cruical detail. In AC a lot of that came from the camera movement inside the cockpit.
So while I did feel all that, on a G27 it wasn't all that was necessarily coming through ffb :). G27 does an ok job with felling the suspension and the grip but everything else has to be from the visual side. And even then, all of the above only comes through if you aren't forced to lower the ffb because shit is clipping :D.
PS: I haven't watched the full thing yet.
@@ID1visor You make a good point. When you're 'in the zone' and really enjoying lapping the cars at the limit, it can be tempting to describe what you feel through the FFB. We've all been there, but at the end of the day this big smile experience is a mix of lots of things. Hours of practise, experience, brain that is able to think ahead, some make belief thrown in.. I mean I have that too, its not to disrespect, at some point you can forget you're playing a game.. That's what makes it so much fun. :-)
@@NielsHeusinkveld exactly ;)
@@ID1visor AC has proactive FFB which tells a ton about rear end slip, it is like semi driving aid.
Im sure all Netherlanders are aliens from another planet far away....he he
So when you say talk about Suspension trail, you essentially mean caster ala moving the tire behind the ball joint?
nvm, completed the whole video, its kinda its, they are different but they effect the same thing
Liked for "I did drink a little..."
That's what she said 😹😹😹
You Muppet!
"Where do Steering Forces come from?" - Child.
"From the Force Feedback Stork." - Dad.
Simple explanation. Revise when the child is 18.
Now give me the Hz ;)
That what she saids,...LOL
Using the devil's horns in hand signals? Not a very wise thing to do.
I understand what you're saying but I did extensive research and found that to be extremely unlikely to affect force feedback. ;-)