Canada Supposedly Built the Best Fighter Interceptor No One Ever Heard Of - Avro CF-105 Arrow
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- čas přidán 19. 08. 2021
- The Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow was planned to become the first all-Canadian aircraft and the best fighter-interceptor in the world.
Development began in 1955 as a more powerful version of the Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck, and it was designed to reach Mach 2 speeds at an altitude above 50,000 feet.
The Royal Canadian Air Force wanted it to become their primary interceptor, and it even went directly into production, leaving out the prototype phase.
But perhaps the program was too costly and ambitious, and the country suddenly faced national security concerns in the face of the Soviet nuclear ballistic threats...
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"No one heard of" I assure you, Canadians have. We all know we got screwed and our aerospace industry got screwed worse.
@@ASMRJAMESY I mean, right about now you're getting owned by the Taliban so... Maybe we should stop being reliant on the US
@@ASMRJAMESY no. We let yo think that. Don't forget. The only war we caught against each other (1812) we won....remember 6 Canadians burnt half the white house down...don't make us send a dozen next time lol
@@alonedoughnut That would be awesome.
@@alonedoughnut We aren't getting owned by the Taliban, but the ANA is. We did all the work and let the ANA do our job in 2014 as the mission was declared done in Afghanistan and now it was to train the ANA as a proper fighting force. Canadians also trained the ANA we pulled out of our bases to let the ANA do all the work.
it was advanced for its generation, which ended before it was even finished. canada dumped it for the cost. not a conspiracy by the US
Just about any Canadian will remember this moment of our Canadian Heritage
passed on tv, the mini series, all the time.
And not with pride.
@@robgraham5697 Yes and they tried to say there never was an Arrow also
My grandfather machined the blades for the Iroquois engine, nothing compared to it at the time, canada would be in such a better place if avro was still around. This was the foxbat 15 years before its inception just imagine how avro would have made a mig 27-29 type plane uggggh canada is so cucked
You played yourself!
The greatest tragedy is not that the plane didn't get put into production, rather the "Brain Drain" that occurred as our engineers went south to America. Spoke to one Avro engineer when I was younger and he told me of how he ended up in the states working on the team that designed the cargo bay for the space shuttle.
Partially true. My Uncle was a lead Engineer at A.V. Roe, my Dad a machinist. My uncle went on to work for Honeywell and we owned one of the first microwave ovens ever developed. My Dad had a stellar career supervising the machine shop at Toronto Hydro.
A thing about the space program that many people don’t consider is the people. All those big brains were being used and expanded. After the program ended, they didn’t disappear, they went on to accomplish a great many things around the country far removed from rockets and astronauts.
My uncle was an engineer for Avro on the Arrow. When the program was cancelled, he left Canada for Haloid (Xerox) and many other talented engineers also left for the U.S.A.
Money talks and Bull Shit walks.
Your uncle left Canada because he was fed up with the socialism there and that was his big chance to leave, good for your uncle. No doubt your uncle probably became wealthy working for Xerox.
@@wicked1172 lol
@@DrummerDelight 👍
@@wicked1172 you sound very knowledgeable about Canada and Canadian politics.
The Conservative government of the day, akin to the American Republican Party, made a deal with the devil. The U.S. are the reason the incredible aircraft never made it to production and the ensuing “Brain Drain” occurred. The American aerospace industry didn’t want the competition from this aircraft and the Canadian Conservative government were very happy to comply with the Americans wishes.
So yes his uncle may have made some money but I’m sure he’d rather have been a part of Canadian history building an aircraft that would have had the free world beating a path to our door to buy this jet fighter that would still be relevant today. A national tragedy!
I've been waiting for this documentary and am quite happy with it. As a Canadian, I think our country failed miserably with the politics around Avro and the Arrow. While it is true that the overall usefulness of a fighter interceptor was questionable at the time, the government completely dropped the ball with an incompetent understanding of what Avro and the Arrow achieved. Canada possessed formidable cutting edge technology and skills that were lost forever with the cancellation of this project. Instead or re- directing this ability , the government's imagination was limited to cut and run. A complete fail for Canada and a huge win for the USA who recieved these outstanding engineers with open arms. I will say it clearly, Diefenbaker (the prime minister) was incompetent and had no appreciation of high tech. What a fool.
Dief wasn't the issue. Any PM in his place would have done the same because they were instructed by the USA to drop it. Canada during WW II was the third largest force behind the USA and Britain. The Arrow and technology was a hangover from that era. Britain and the USA wanted Canada to succeed when fighting the Germans but they didn't want another power looking for theirs especially with Europe recovering their place in the world. So we took a lesser aircraft and I'm sure some sweet trade deals that eased the sting.
@@danacross3427 the arrow was not a hold over of WW2 tech. An example is the casting and forging of titanium, something that had not been done before .
@@danacross3427 You prove my point. Dief basically caved to the Americans however his greatest failure was to simply throw away Canada's aerospace developments. The loss could never be made up for with any trade deal. The brain drain was a real thing. Boeing ( and others) were happy to get all these highly trained people. Face it, Dief was a prairie farmer who's ideas were rooted in his past while the whole world was entering a very different era.
@@danacross3427 Canada was absolutely not the third largest alli3d force in WW2, that was, if we are ignoring the soviet union or nationalist china, the - usually forgotten - India.
@@danacross3427 Over all I agree but what was the Red Army? Chopped liver!
The arrow is probably the best showcasing of both Canadian ingenuity and resourcefulness along with our Neverending absolute failure at the game of politics all rolled up into one beautiful tragedy
Let's be honest - the program was cancelled because the engineers just couldn't get the thing to run on maple syrup.
theres also the cl-84 and the fact that we were the 3rd country to put a satellite into space, and without our engineers who joined nasa after avro was shutdown there probably would not have been a moon landing, the lander used fly by wire controls and the guys who designed it were the 2 guys who built the first fly by wire system in the world, the guys who worked on the avro arrow.
oh 🇨🇦, sometimes you are so disappointing…
avro cancelled.... but we got universal healthcare instead. this was the reason diefenbaker cancelled it. it was the NDP that initiated... but diefenbaker who supported it.
@@ricklazio7923 Universal healthcare, and yet like your national security, when things get serious, Canadians look to the US.
My grandfather designed the landing gear for the Arrow. He watched many of his friends leave to go work on the Apollo program when the Arrow was cancelled.
My grandfather was the plumber who hooked up the toilet that Canadian money was flushed down trying to build the Avro Arrow.
The Avro Arrow was completely unnecessary and a huge waste of money.
@@wicked1172 you too, are unnecessary. Like this comment of heresy that you have made. Please note that i will be sending a letter of complaint to the company who made this malfunctioning garbage can. Think before you say something dumb. Thank you for your time
@@uslessrobot0763 LOL Cannot figure out what you've said here but it did make me laugh.😄
My grandfather immigrated from England and was one of the main engineers... My mom was 3years old.. After the Avero he was asked to work for NASA.. California was not for my nana and we are still in Canada today.
I highly recommend the book, "Arrows to the Moon: Avro's Engineers and the Space Race" by Chris Gainar. It's a fascinating story about the Avro engineers who found positions working for NASA and being instrumental in helping America win the race to the moon. I'm not sure many Americans know that we owed such a debt of gratitude to Canada during the Space Race.
They wouldn't know. Nor would they care.
The Avro development team had understood the potential and contribution. On Black Friday my Father's best friend reminded my dad as he lifted me out if 206's rear seat that the new wing design for the Mark 4 with the Mark 3 engine as designed would allow the Arrow to get beyond the atmosphere if needed. I was 6.
That he on that day left Toronto and only in 64 did we see him back, took years to understand. He was a delta wing high altitude flight engineer. When he returned he gavea 14" model of a black planall he said was crusing at 72,000 but can go higher and faster. In my ignorance I asked if it could shoot down stuff up there .... He replied, it's not a hunter like my Arrow was but too fast and to high but it shoots verything.
Yes Avro engineers knew the potential. So did others but not the folks that counted.
@Todd Brooks What was that putrid wind from the south just now? Oh nothing but a windbag asshole.
@Todd Brooks Why, pray tell, would anyone here want to set foot in your country? It’s way more fun, and much safer, to watch COVID wipe out the ignorant, and then watch those that remain shoot each other. I suppose if I had been told every day of my life that I lived in the greatest country in the world I would be inclined to ignore the facts and actually believe the lie.
Thanks for your statement. Nice to know our southern neighbours knew what happened back in the 50's.
Thanks for making this video. Such a sad moment in Canadian history. My wife’s grandfather was a welder at AVRO. He built the jigs that the planes were built in. When the program was cancelled he was ordered to assist with cutting the planes up. We talked a lot about it and you could see in his eyes how much it broke his heart. The Arrow needs to be remembered. Thank you.
Only an idiot wouldn't be able to see how valuable those completed aircraft would have been if preserved.
@@geoh7777 Well the prime minister at the time did not see it that way, did he?
Found and Explained made a great video about it too. Check it out
My great grand father was an accountant that the government kept on the project at the time of closure to determine how much of a financial hit scrapping the planes was to the government finances.
My professor, while i was attending college in London ON in the mid 90s, was involved in that program. He was still bitter. He blamed the Americans and their aircraft industry for pressuring the Canadian government to cancel the program.
"No one ever heard of" is quite hyperbolic.
Every Canadian over the age of 30 knows about the Avro Arrow.
Any Canadian under 30 who has even the slightest interest in aviation or history knows about the Avro Arrow.
The Avro Arrow is a staple of Canadian History, sorry.
It's really sad that it Mysteriously got shut down destroying so many jobs and prestige of our nations aviation. I feel like other nations might not like the idea of a small nation like Canada designing the most advanced interceptor of the time.
@@dudeman5300 Namely the US
Within Canada, Yes.
Hyperbolic, perhaps. But still reflective of the wider world's understanding?
Yeah, i had never heard of it. Nor anyone in my Strategic Studies class.
@@omark4649 just google it...
Such a gorgeous plane, an aircraft all us Canadians are so proud of. Canada would still be on the world aviation stage if it was allowed to be into full production.
Unfortunately, you left out the part where ALL plans, tooling and info was ordered destroyed under penalty of law.
The true story of why the Arrow was cancelled may never be known, but it is still a sore point to this day in Canada.
On our street lived a guy who operated a disposal company. We later found out he has signed a contract with the government to destroy the plans for the Arrow shed or burn them . While he was doing this agents from the government hovered over his junkyard to ensure the destruction was complete .
Thankfully, a bunch of the engineers took plans and there's actually a good amount of the blueprints and schematics that have survived. Not enough to rebuild all the systems, but they exist.
Americans stole it from us.
It was cancelled because it was too expensive and it was obsolete. The reasons are well known.
The Americans cancelled their Mach 3 XF-108 interceptor the same year for the same reasons.
@@Bartonovich52 wow, so out of touch.
This airplane has legendary status in Canada. I was honoured to hold a piece of it in my hand a month ago. Just a replacement part, but of great historical significance.
DUDE, HOW ?!
Also asking how!!?
If you haven't already you should visit the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum at the Hamilton, Ontario airport. They have one of the Orenda Iroquois engines on display, with holes torched in it.
@@bobsmith2637 or check out these people that have one and are trying to restore it. czcams.com/video/wKsNaeJJe24/video.html
@@bobsmith2637 CWHM is world-class. It's a living, breathing hive of vintage aircraft and aviation activities.
In 1997 there was a Mini-Series called the Arrow. It starred Dan Aykroyd among others and was actually a fair program.
Another one of Ackroyds poorly researched grade B productions.
@@martkbanjoboy8853 - How would you have improved it?
czcams.com/video/aJwBHtYHIaw/video.html
that show gave teenage me goosebumps
Put UK filmmakers in charge of production. The Brits are very good at getting facts right in documentaries.
Jim Chamberlain was an Avro engineer and Aerodynamicist until he was fired by Avro in 1959 , he went on to the Mercury program and was lead designer of Gemini and the LEM in the Apollo program
Imagine America spending tons of money on the Saturn V rocket to go to the moon, and just as they finish building the first 3 fully-completed rockets, ready to go, the government orders ALL of them to be scrapped, including all of the production machinery, and then fires all personnel at NASA. That is the equivalent of what Canada did to their aircraft industry.
That’s basically what the USSR did after the Apollo program succeeded - they realized that sunk cost didn’t guarantee that further spending would accomplish anything.
The Arrow probably wasn’t going to be ready until 1962 and finding export sales for an expensive 1953 design in 1962 was going to be a tall order indeed.
You have it exactly. Except the sordid truth was even worse. After being notified of the Russian spies in the project by the US, Diefenbaker was persuaded to kill the Arrow with a bribe of absolute garbage. A squadron of F-104 Starfighters, a highly dangerous (to itself) and almost worthless interceptor that America was trying to unload so they could build new and FAR better aircraft in the 'teen series' of fighter/interceptors along with a bunch of equally obsolete and near worthless Bowmac ABM batteries to intercept Russian bombers or missiles coming from across the North Pole. It enrages me today to think what could have been with a robust Canadian aerospace industry. *sigh*
Well the analogy would be that they discovered the Moon wasn’t there (the Soviets had no bombers that could reach North America) but they needed an internet for business and brought and deployed such technology (the Canadian acquired right to build a US designed strike aircraft that could carry nuclear devises - so threaten Soviet forces in Europe if they threaten Canada.
@@Justanotherconsumer There's also the issue that all the test launches of the Soviet moon rocket, the N1, were failures.
It all has to be placed in context. The cold war was still new and fresh. The Soviet Union had demonstrated the obsolescence of aircraft in the delivery of strategic weapons - and thus the need for interceptors - and the Suez Crisis had placed Canada firmly in the camp of the United States in opposition to British and French colonialism. A unified defence of North America seemed like a better idea than funding a project that no one could see a use for any more. I do think it was a mistake to cancel it entirely, but I understand the reasoning behind it.
As a Canadian we've heard about it, it's part of our national identity. And the "uck" in Canuk is pronounced like "Yuck" not "oook"
Was just checking to see if anyone mentioned this!! Have an updoot!
Spelled "Canuck"...ja, ja, Language Nazi...
@@doogleticker5183 Some people clearly don't watch hockey, huh? It would be hard to miss the spelling and pronunciation if you ever saw a Vancouver game!
@melanin farmer Have to admit it's pitiful that the lore of the country includes a fat "mighta been."
Also, the models of the arrow fired on rockets where fired from Point Petre. Not Point Peter.
When I was a kid growing up in Canada during the 1960s, the CF-105 Arrow was the second model plane I ever built (after the obligatory Spitfire). Such a beautiful, simple design.
This was an excellent video about what must have been a very difficult time for Canadians. I didn't know about the Arrow. What an amazing aircraft and achievement for Canadian industry. Having been engaged in nuclear electric power generation in the U.S. during the early part of my engineering career, I am no stranger to the long-term damage that can be done by politicians who lack vision and fortitude. As usual this Dark Skies video was fascinating. Thank you for producing it.
“It was a nifty feature”
The most Canadian description of a bomb bay I’ve ever heard.
A modular removable bomb bay allowing it to carry any ordinance was a nifty feature.
@@Ottawajames Indeed, it's a pity modern planes don't have such a thing. Imagine how fast you could reload a bomb bay if you just swap the bay, missiles pre-loaded. You have to think, if they can swap the entire power pack in an Abrams tank in under half an hour.....
@@Ottawajames A feature that was copied by Blackburn in the Buccaneer.
@@andrewallen9993 it wasn't copied by the buccaneer....next
@@wartmcbeighn Arrow built before Buccaneer. Buccaneer had exchangeable bomb bay ( for in flight refueling of other Buccaneers, carrying parts/air starter or other stores, different bombs including nuclear). In addition to which it rotated allowing for better aerodynamics putting it one up on the Arrow. Two bloody good ideas to make a bomb bay much more efficient one of which was Canadian. Though I suppose it depends how you define "exchangeable".
This is still an open wound in Canada. Never has an aerospace project been so bitterly remembered in any country.
The CF-105 Arrow was a remarkable aircraft for its time. To watch the project literally demolished was a very sour pill for Canadians to swallow.
its was like the draken in sweden in how far ahead it was
I did a presentation on this back in college, I had spoken with an engineer who worked on the project. He welled up with tears when talking about it. He also mentioned that the day the project was cancelled that the U.S. was well aware of it and there were recruiters from Boeing, McDonald Douglas, etc. all there handing out card and would take anyone working on the project. He retired from Boeing.
"the US was well aware of it." Americans have shown up at Pearson Airport and Union Station, Toronto, with skiing equipment in mid July expecting snow. Most Americans are living in complete lack of knowledge about 99% of the rest of the world. We knew people whom we met in Florida and lived in Michigan, just south of Detroit. At one point they asked me where Ontario was, even though they had been to Niagara Falls, Ontario where the best view of the whole Falls can be seen. It's where you have to be to have your picture taken to use the Falls as a background. We were asked whether Canada celebrated Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year. We were building military aircraft, training British pilots, building ships, training spies for the SOE before the US became involved in WWII. Many, if not most, Americans are unaware of even that.
Alternately, in primary school, K-8, we learned the location and capital city of every state in the union. We had to make a map of that information. And, that was after we had learned about the history of Britain and France. Many things I now know about Canada I learned when I had retired and worked on our family trees. Sadly, I also learned along the way that, although we did not massacre our first nations people, neither did we treat them as other than ignorant savages. I was disgusted when I read and saw how those people were treated in the US. But I hang my head in shame at the way we treated/treat them here.
I lived just a couple of miles from Downsview and saw the Arrow coming in for finals over our house. At night we could hear them testing the engines on static test beds. There was a guy who lived at the end of our street who worked on the Arrow as a wiring tech . We saw him come home on "Black Friday" while we were having snowball fights. I never saw a man look so dejected in my life. I think he eventually got a job with Convair as he and his family moved to the States.
Brother-in-law's dad went into depression and never worked again.
I assure this plane is far from forgotten. In fact it is legend in the what could have been category. It would have easily been the top interceptor of its day and it was criminal that it never went into series production.
And there are still living Canadians who will never vote Conservative because of Black Friday February 20th, 1959.
"Top interceptor of its day"? The interceptor ceased to be a job once the ICBM and SAM killed the high altitude bomber.
@@florbfnarb7099 and yet, here in the modern age of the 2000s there are still interceptors and air-superiority fighters being designed and built :\
@@alyssinwilliams4570 - Air superiority fighters, yes; interceptors, no, not really. The Soviets have the old MiG-25, designed to counter the XB-70, which was never adopted, and its updated descendant, the MiG-31. Nobody else is really producing dedicated interceptors, as there are no high altitude bombers for them to prey upon; there's simply no need to produce them instead of air superiority fighters.
Excellent story. My uncle was a construction engineer on that project. Then he came to Kingston and opened a Greek restaurant. 👍🙂
In Jamaica or Surrey
Two of my best friends growing up were first generation Americans with Greek parents. When their father got here, he worked in a Jewish deli/restaurant, and odd as it may seem, he opened a Jewish deli/restaurant of his own despite being Greek Orthodox himself. Cheers to those who serve, cheers to entrepreneurs, and cheers to good food.
@@weirdsciencethe2nd205 - Or Ontario (CA) or Nova Scotia (CA)?
@@weirdsciencethe2nd205 Kingston Ontario Canada 😊
@@weirdsciencethe2nd205 Kingston Ontario Canada 😊
The United States can thank this plane's cancellation for its space program because most of these engineers went to work for NASA developing the Apollo space craft.Canada also built the Canadarm used on the space shuttles and on the international space station.
Plus; don’t forget about the Concorde. Most engineers went on to develop both Apollo and Concorde programs. What a loss!
Nonsense.... Apollo Programm employed 1000's of engineers and scientists, mostly from the USA..
@@larrydavis8249 The principal designers on Concorde and Apollo were British and American respectively. Both programs would have worked fine without ex-Avro engineers even if they did play a role.
Not really....
The space program was run by the captured Nazis who also introduced the V 2 rocket which was the first rocket on the planet.
@@barracuda7018it’s not nonsense, you yanks literally wiped out all of our military production capabilities
I was a security guard at the Canadian National Aeronautical Collection in Rockcliffe Ont. It was a museum dedicated to Canada's aircraft. Pieces of the Avro Arrow were stacked up behind one of the hangars. The plane had been cut up with welding torches. The engine was called I believe, the Iroquois, and sat in its own display case. I knew when a man who had been involved in that aircraft was in front of that engine. They would look down on it, their shoulders slumped, their body language in deep remorse. My father was a test engineer in the armed forces and saw the Arrow fly. It was the best we could do at the time, but not the best we're capable of, as Canadians. That is yet to come. We are the Free Canadians.
It's difficult to say what ended the Arrow. Bi-partisan politics, strong-arm tactics from competitive companies, technological obsolescence, etc are all plausible contributors. Only thing for sure is we as Canadians haven't been able to bury the shame and sorrow from that dark day in 1959. It has lingered over our aerospace industry even to this day.
One of the more accurate comments in regards to it's cancellation
Mostly the ICBM.
Most is folklore , in 1960 they might have thought glad we got rid of it ,now it's the most incredible plane of the 1950s even musk wants it back, reality is that missile technology endangered a lot of highflying aircraft by the 60s so there we're cheaper alternatives
If they'd managed to sell the rights to Airbus for a buck, perhaps it would have survived . . .
A shame that such an amazing aircraft didn't get the support it deserved.
Funny to read obsolescencde when now, all furtive bombers and fighters use weapon bays…. This jet was ahead of its time. We just caved in to pressures from the US aeronautic industry.
The irony is, "no monopoly on genius" is what killed it and American aviation steam rolled the possibility. What I wasn't aware of was how flight ready it was--solid Canadian engineering 👍
Please elaborate on why this was America’s fault? Seemed a matter of pure economics, with a side of politics.
Popular myth...The Avro Arrow project was killed because it was obsolete before it even finished development. Yes it was a remarkable plane but it was not combat ready. Electronics and weapons systems still had to be developed at substantial costs. Even if that was done the fact remained that the roll the plane was designed for as a high speed high altitude bomber interrupter was no longer the threat. Now the nuclear ballistic missile that Russia had developed replaced bombers as the threat and made the Arrow's roll obsolete. The plane was too good at it's designed roll to be redesigned into any other roll. My grand father was there at Avro when they called everyone in; I think he told me it was at 2.30 in the afternoon and sent everyone home. They were right to cancel it....Heavy high speed Interceptors were no longer viable in combat as later proved during the Vietnam conflict.
@@SpamSucker Our Canadian mythology says the US strong-armed Canada to not build a competitor for US interceptors. We did end up buying the F101 Voodoo for that role, although we did keep The Canadian designed and built CF100 in use until the early 80s.
The decision to destroy the prototypes of the Arrow is particularly difficult to accept, and that is always blamed on nefarious American machinations.
@@billiemon role and roll are different words. the fact that they sound the same is only helpful to those who move their lips when they read
@@SpamSucker The US didn't want any other country to have a better fighter/interceptor than them. Plus, by pressuring Diefenbaker to cancel and then sell stupid Bomark missiles and pawn off obsolete, crap Voodoos make the US war machine more money. And all that talent went to US companies and NASA causing huge brain drain for Canada. The US benefitted greatly by killing the Arrow.
I knew one of the flight engineers who worked on the Arrow and from a practical perspective, the plane's weapons platform development was 10-20 years behind the plane's mission requirements, and as such would have neared the end its service life just as appropriate weapons were developed for it.
While there may have been political pressures (the US was developing the SR71 at the time and the Arrow (or Russian derivative) would have been a serious threat to intercepting it), Diefenbaker would have been justified in using that in his decision to cancel the program, but in doing so, he also amputated the long term aerospace industry in Canada.
This flight engineer and two of his peers made a pact to quit the industry and pursue other careers as they saw no future in Canada for their skill sets.
@Wayne Mills The Arrow would have threatened the Blackbird? What are you smoking? You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
@@FIREBRAND38 Petty insults aside, I have no authority on the subject to make firm statements, but the basic performance stats of the Arrow with the Iroquois engines would have brought it's speed close to that of the Blackbird.
If you are developing a spy plane, even the hint of suspicion it could be intercepted would have driven significant political decisions.
It wasn't the Canadians the Americans were worried about, it was the near total lack of security in the Avro plant that suggested foreign parties could access the Arrow's tech. Political intrigue and action rarely waits for the facts.
@Molashen I'm not sure what to make of the dude remark, but will assume it's just a pointless part of your lexicon.
The Arrow was flying 6 years before both of those planes and not with it's intended engines, so the Americans were concerned for the 'unknown potential' of the technology and design falling into Russian hands as there was virtually no security in the Avro plant. As I indicated in my original comment, according to an engineer that worked on the plane and saw/heard the American visitors voice these concerns.
Technology security and counter action is rarely concerned about what happened, it's about what could happen.
@Molashen After reading your last response, I might suggest reading a few more books on grammar, punctuation and perhaps others on social etiquette, speech and conversational analysis too.
I really enjoy your documentaries and narration. You are definitely a pro. Cheers
Ah yes, the Arrow, the plane of myth and legend. The aircraft that was actually useful and could have been further developed was the Jetliner. It's cancellation was really a shame.
That's why so many jet fighters built during the following decades mimic the airframe profile of the Avro...
@@MaverickBlue42 how so?
Like the B-58 Hustler, it was obsolete before its time. Its mission was cancelled by the rapid pace of rocket-powered missiles. The cancellation saved you a lot of money.
@@MaverickBlue42
Which ones?
@@raynus1160 Pretty much all of the Mirage fighters, Eurofighter Typhoon, SAAB J.38 Gripen, Chengdu J-10, Convair B-58 Hustler, General-Dynamics F-16XL, altho that's more of a double delta. The main difference being the addition of canards for most of these aircraft. Christ, imagine how the Arrow would have performed with those.
Heck, even the F-14 looks like a chunky boy version of an Arrow when the wings are swept back.
Great video. I lived in Toronto with my family from 1956-59 while my father worked as a US hydraulics specialist on the Arrow. His engineering office was out at Downsview, which I enjoyed visiting. I was thrilled to return there when my wife and I visited Toronto in the 2010s, and visit the repro Arrow at the museum in the very same building. Remember our return to the US figuratively in the dead of night.
Pushing technology beyond its known boundaries, is never going to be cheap. Ref Avto Arrow, BAC TSR2 and now the F35. … 1 out of 3 ain’t bad
Thank you for making this video.
As a long time subscriber and passionate Canadian aviation enthusiast, we've been waiting for this video from you for a while! You covered the historical points very well, and I even learned a thing or two. Thanks
My grandfather was one of the few test pilots that got to fly it.
Sir, your channel is outstanding. Truly enjoying your videos. Please keep up the good work!
For several years in the 80s" and 90s" there was a travelling exhibit that went to library's and museum's that chronicled this amazing plane. I'm not sure where it ended up. But I'd say most Canadian's in their 60"s or older have heard of this plane. Avro also attempted to make a flying saucer.
Thanks!!
@2:30 the clip shows the aerodynamic tests of scale models attached to rockets which they fired into lake superior (iirc)... Recently some of these models were found and recovered from the bottom of the lake
...Lake Ontario
@@petezaria9409 Takes in what Lake Erie can send her.
@@jwrockets Gord Lightfoot was one of the original test Pilots.
@@doccyclopz Oh? Inconceivable!
@@doccyclopz lol where do you come up with bit of comedy..given there were only 4test pilots and..Lightfoot was a singer?
How can someone give this a thumbs down? A well done, comprehensive review of this aircraft
Doesn’t blame the Americans or other political nonsense enough for some tastes, I’m guessing.
Canadian aviation folks are bitter and extremely petty about the cancellation of this project.
@@Justanotherconsumer I don't like Dark Skies in general because he just rattles on as quickly as possible like it's a chore to get through it. I keep thinking it's a robot voice but they are more expressive.
As to cancellations, the Dayton Air Museum is full of aircraft that never went past prototypes. They can't all be winners in design competitions. The difference is in the U.S. there are multiple companies with deep pockets and a pro military gov't with even deeper pockets so they move on.
The Arrow was a one and done effort. We put all chips in and didn't have the industrial/gov't infrastructure to survive one project cancellation.
Fantastic job on the episode.
It didn’t prove that smaller countries can’t compete. Look at Sweden, their aircraft have been very competitive.
@Peter C
Whether it can or can’t, my point stands. His assertion that smaller countries can’t do projects like this isn’t accurate.
Actually the cockpit and nose section of the Arrow RL-206 is on display at the Canadian Aviation Museum in Ottawa, Canada.
I remember seeing an Arrow nosecone at what is now The Hangar Flight Museum quite some time ago (20 years or more); I'm not sure if it is still there or not.
@@speedythree It is still there. For a while, it was mounted on a skeleton frame that had the contours of the complete aircraft, to give a perspective of what the complete plane was like. But each time a conservative government was in place, they had a tendency to hide the remains of the Arrow. I wonder why...
well as of 2015 it was still on display close to the main entrance with the other orenda iroquois ps13 engine in pride of place beside it ... once they reopen after all this covid stuff and I can scrape together admission fees i will be going back to revisit the old girl ... and yes speedythree ... the nose cone was in the old hanagrs of the museum as well ... as the engine they now display proudly ... btw that engine used to be behind the lancaster bomber on the back wall of hangar 2 under the tarp ... and shortly after it was rediscovered by 2 7 year old kids asking what engine was that under the tarp and a bored staffer deciding to check and see ... they found one of the last few ps13 iroquois engines ... and that was a little under 50 years ago ...
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how do I know I was one of the two kids at the time ... spent more time there than playing baseball ... and also on the viewing deck at the ottawa airport ... I still miss having a 737 coming almost nose to nose with me on that deck
.in case you are wondering it was shortly after the engine was foudn they started lobbying for a better museum to showcase the iconic engine and nose sections ... this is why it still holds the front line at the museum ... without it it would follow the rockliffe airport and be on very hard times
I remember watching a movie about the Canadian fighter that never went past a couple models built. Dan Akryod is in it if memory serves. They even go on to talk about how the ones built were destroyed and the team that made it ended up joining the NASA program or something like that.
You've got that right.
Was it a movie? .... It was definitely a Heritage Minute.
czcams.com/video/EdOIn_IqwsE/video.html
Many of the Canadian and British engineers did indeed move South, and were the mainstay of NASA's early space engineering, a fact the Americans try to hide.
@@Ottawajames it was a miniseries I guess
@@sk61181both parts are on youtube. Its worth a watch.
Fascinating! I had no idea. Good info and history.
Thanks for the history!
I've been waiting for this video for a long time, I think it was a great aircraft that is sadly not very well known. Thank you for making this video!
My father helped design and build the Avro Arrow I still have old pictures that he took and brochures along with some design drafts.
I've often considered donating them to a heritage museum.
It's a tragedy what happened in the end and in my father's opinion, truely crippled the Canadian aircraft industry.
Great video that's for doing this 👍
That is really cool!!
I have tried offering my father's hand tools from A.V. Roe / AVRO employment to quite a few of the historical aviation museums in Canada over the last three years, from Trenton, Hamilton, Wasaga, to Calgary. Any of them I could seek out. No takers. Only one curator even replied to ask for more pictures and then nada. I'm Canadian but this is a typical behaviour I've come to expect from not for profit organizations in our country so I wasn't totally surprised.
If you decide to donate it to the ROM or something, Contact me. I'll pay for the postage.
@@charlieross-BRM What exactly do you have ? there are several specialty museums in SW Ontario.
These two videos explain what happened based on the actual archival record. The US did not want Canada to complete the development. czcams.com/video/ulCTf-KJ2Eo/video.html Update USA
czcams.com/video/fdxum2OiBeQ/video.html The Avro Arrow: For the Record.
I had a model of the Arrow as a kid, it's a crazy story. We would likely still see updated versions being used today if it hadn't been quashed.
The various failed projects of Avro are the perfect example of what happens when extraordinary Canadian ingenuity comes crashing up against typical Canadian lack of ambition, something that holds us back until this very day.
The story has many parallels with the TSR2 in the UK.
^!
Yeah, the Americans were partly responsible for that debacle too!
And the miles m52
Well the British could make good engines and aircraft , Canada's legacy was less clear on that subject , you know how some things get into folklore proportions over the years and maybe tsr2 and arrow fell into that narrative
@@cnfuzz - But maybe not!
As an Italian I know very well the Avro CF-1O5 as I'm sure no decent Canadian can forget how the 20 February 1959 Prime Minister John Diefenbaker overnight abruptly halted the development of the Arrow, a blow that a wonderful company like Avro and quite a few other companies had to close and forcing so many experienced engineers, draftsmen and other experts on aeronautical matters to emigrate in USA. Canada never really recovered from this blow. Sad indeed....
And all over western pettiness and political rivalry.
What does being italian have to do with that? lol
@@twizz420 for the simple reason that I follow much as possible aviation in general as a hobby since I was a boy and I have been traveling a lot in many countries hence my rather good knowledge of English. When I talk to an Italian I literally count on my fingers if one of them knows anything about aviation in general as they only follow football, lol....
That was Conservative thinking, if you can call it that.
Diefenbaker and his party shills... worst prime minister ever
Thank you difenbaker for cutting 50,000 jobs in a high tech, healthy and booming part of our economy
Is that the point of building the plane? To create jobs? The plane wasn't needed for anything.
@@florbfnarb7099 @Florb Fnarb I respect your perspective but I disagree since your viewing this from just one perspective.
You gotta factor in why the arrow was built. The CF-100s were rapidly becoming obsolete in the face of increasing more sophisticated soviet bombers such as the tu-95 bear which were reaching transonic speeds and so in the what seemed likely event of a soviet invasion of North American aerospace, speed and armament was paramount to intercept and possibly shoot down vast formations of bombers.
CF-100s were first designed in 1947 and were meant to be a stop gap solution until a more advanced fighter-interceptor could've either been developed or procured from abroad.
The CF-100s again were post WWII designs that look similar to early WWII jet aircraft designs, straight wings, a speed between subsonic and transonic speeds, a myriad of unguided FFARs, and 6 browning M3 12.7 x 99 (.50 Cal) machine guns which were later replaced by a ventral rocket pod. Now although advanced for its time, again this was not a permanent solution.
So eventually Canada decides that it needs the best of the best since what was abroad was not sufficient enough. So after a bunch of complex events which I can tell you in another reply, the arrow is conceived, approved and and 6 prototypes for evaluation are built with RL 206 being the best out of the prototypes since it had the for its time PS.13 Orenda Iroquois Engine which was again, very advanced and I can tell you why in a later reply.
The arrow is a smash hit with evaluators but on one area, cost. So after some more complex events the arrow is cancelled.
The reason for its cancellation is not just price but later,
John Diefenbaker the PM who cancelled the arrow recounted the incorrect thought that the soviets were building and were on the cutting edge of ICBM development which many thought was the future of warfare which is as we now know is false. But at the time it was thought from soviet propaganda that missiles were the future and we can tell that in 2021, ICBMs were a false futuristic prediction.
In addition, the soviets between the 50s-60s were facing many problems when developing ICBMs and had many of the same problems that the US were having and so bombers although still a present threat coexisted with the threat of ICBMs.
So the arrow was cancelled due to not just cost but as well an incorrect perception due to soviet propaganda that ICBMs were being developed successfully at a rapid rate.
Idk feel free to reply since i'm interested to debate this topic
@@Unix2816 - Yes ICBMs weren’t fully up to speed yet, but they knew it was a matter of time since the Soviets had put a satellite in orbit in 1957. And yes bombers remained a thread, but SAMs meant bombers no longer operated at high altitude; SAMs forced them down to low altitude where they could be handled by less specialized aircraft.
Certainly the CF-105 was developed for sound reasons, it’s just that those reasons became moot once SAMs forced bombers to low altitude, and to some extent because of the development of ICBMs and SLBMs.
This is why we went from more specialized aircraft in the 50s to multirole planes from the Phantom on: because high altitude interception was left to SAMs and aircraft handle low altitude air superiority.
@@florbfnarb7099 Tbh cancelling the arrow was not a sound decision.
there were many pieces of technology that went into the arrow that could've been developed further into a newer and more multirole aircraft but also would've proved popular for export like the orenda engines and what not.
Plus the concept of fly by wire controls going mainstream would've not occurred until 40 years later with 4th gen aircraft aka the "teen" series
@@Unix2816 - Also, this is one reason why planes in the 50s to 60s seemed so Buck Rogers, then stopped advancing in things like speed and maximum altitude in the 70s. SAMs meant we didn't need to go from interceptors that flew Mach 2.5 at 60,000 feet to interceptors that flew Mach 4 at 90,000 feet - because bombers weren't going Mach 4 at 90,000 feet, and probably never would, simply because SAMs had caught up.
The fact that high altitude bombing was mostly replaced by low-level bombing and ballistic missiles meant the high altitude, high speed interceptor wasn't a priority; we got an F-15 in the early 70s that flew no faster and not much higher than the F-4 that first flew in 1958, and the F-16 and F-18 actually have less speed and altitude than either the F-15 or F-4.
Things might change in the future if hypersonic bombers start cruising at like 100,000 feet and outpace SAMs for a while, then we might need those Mach 5 interceptors that fly at 110,000 feet or something, but not now.
This is what happens when we allow self serving burecrates run our world. I'm an American and its easy to see that this Canadian jet could have dominated the skys during its time. I wonder how advanced it could be today had it continued on. A truly amazing jet with a sad ending 😢 💔
Forget what book I read. There were variants on the drawing board that would have been competition (perhaps not alot) to the SR 71.
It’s nothing to theorize an airplane that will go Mach 3.
It’s dead simple. The faster you go, the more the air is compressed, you put that air into the engine with a lot more fuel, and you keep going faster.
Practically, though? Not a chance. Just the inlet design that would allow you to do that was years away (the inlet design of the Arrow was a similar one to the F-4 and only good for Mach 2.2). Then there is the problem of heat. Aluminum is also only good for about Mach 2.2. Maybe Mach 2.5. That’s why any Mach 3 aircraft had to be built out of a different material like titanium or stainless steel.
Then all of the systems to have them function at those heats. The SR-71 needed an entirely different fuel.
The US did it because it wasn’t a question of know how, it was a question of cost. Same reason why we haven’t been back to the moon. We know how.. it’s too expensive.
@@davidcalvin4215 It would not have been good to compete with the Sr71. The materials would need to be switched out almost entirely. The engines would need to be much more powerful too. Considering it went Mach 1.88 using the GE engines, it might go 2.2-3 with the Iroquois. And even add the recon equipment to add even more weight. The RF-4 for example wasn’t really faster than the combat ones.
Without "self-serving bureaucrats" the project would never have received initial go ahead and funding.
That’s why us Canadians refer to the day as Black Friday. Sad day indeed. It was way ahead of its time
This plane was heavily computerized and a fly by wire machine. The first ever. Initially the computer was all vacuum tubes (and weighed a tonne) but with the development of circuit boards a few years later it would have been sweet!
No. The Avro Vulcan was fly by wire long before the Arrow. That is where the Arrow got the idea.
@@Bartonovich52 thanks! Didn't know that.
"By the tonne", eh? Love the conversion Jeffrey!!! Keep it up!!
the FIRST fly by wire plane .. and the first look down shoot down targeting system ... are among the 15 firsts of the arrow ... look at modern jet fighters ... notice how they all use the swept wing design in some form ... and all use fly by wire and look down shoot down radar ... heck even the sparrow missile system in use today was because avro worked out the kinks in the bodge job the americans had done ... as for the computer it actually used 5400 series IC chips ... not tubes .. it was the FIRST plane with a fully autonomous targeting and tracking system ... the rest of the planes of the era needed ground control guidance to find and hit their targets ... and here we are 70 years later and no plane currently manufactured as a jet fighter meets the specification the arrow was designed to ... btw they had completed 95% of the flight testing and met or exceeded the specification ... IF 206 flew ... they would have exceeded the specification as the real flight data showed they were upto 5% shy on their calculations ... and even with heavier smaller and slower j75 engines it met and exceeded the spec ...
@@0623kaboom Swept wings were pioneered by German engineers in the 1930s. and you're claiming that despite the Arrow being cancelled in 1959, it used an IC that wasn't available until 1964? The look-down/shoot-down radar was developed by American corporation Hughes in 1960 and first flew onboard a modified B-58. Funny that it supposedly had fully autonomous targeting and tracking when its radar and avionics were nowhere near a working state. The level of delusion Canadians have about the Arrow is ridiculous. Maybe move on a lose the chip on your shoulder about your more powerful neighbour then you can stop living in the past.
Fantastic video! I thank you as a Canadian. Other cool video ideas could be the fly off completions between the HD-16 / 17, or the one between the HD-22 and 23.
Great work Sir
Seeing the nose of the arrow in the Ottawa air museum with it's blackened torch cuts behind the cockpit left a sick feeling in my gut. Many engineers from the Arrow project were involved in the lunar lander project and other areas of NASA's space program. The other tragedy was the fate of the Orenda Iroqois engine that would have powered the Arrow. It too was ahead of it's time. It could have recouped some of the project costs but was also scrapped.
Been waiting for this.. 👍 🇨🇦
I remember reading not long ago in National Post about a Quebec firm to offer the Avro Arrow redesign version with new composites, pod bays for switching arms and bombs very easily, upgraded engines to push it to near mach 3. The instruments were also pod based and switching pods made upgrades easy. This would be cheaper in the long run than buying the F35.
He’s a scammer who thinks that he will have a going concern if the Federal Government just cuts him a cheque for several billion dollars.
Just ask him where the fuel will go for those engines and he doesn’t have a clue.
And that’s what the problem was with the original Arrow. All of that power, no endurance. Either fuel or weapons would have to be mounted externally.. and then it’s just like every other plane of the era.
This is a silly idea. The plane wasn't built for Mach 3 and you can't make it built for it just by putting better engines on it.
It's an ancient plane, suited only for a mission that no longer exists: intercepting bombers at 40,000 feet.
@Peter C - Any plane can make a turn at any speed without losing speed...if the turn is wide enough. The Arrow was limited to 2g, so any Mach 2+ turn would have been pretty wide.
@@florbfnarb7099 the air frame was tested for mach 7 performance ... the engines were designed to meet the air 7.3 specification which was 2.5 mach at 70k feet and 50k feet and do a 1g turn without losing speed ... with a 10 minute refuel rearm time and return to 50k feet ... they could do it in just shy of 9 minutes ... using the J75 engine they did make mach 1,9 faster than everything flying at the time ... except for the u2 ... at 2.5 mach it was faster than u2 at its mach 2.1 speed ... since 1955 to today NO PLANE has met the air 7.3 specification not even the 3 f35 model the f22 the f18 NONE of them ... its 2022 now ... almost 70 YEARS later ... now imagine where we would be had they even finished the 37 planes currently on the production floor ... and yes production floor the cook-craige method of development means there were NO PROTOTYPES ... from 201 onwards they were full production aircraft ... and believe it or not for the cost of the cancellation they could have finished all 37 planes in the production cue and made BILLIONS on the sale of them ...
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as for the mission not being relevant anymore ... canada still patrols the north and intercepts Russian flights of bombers and jet fighters on a fairly regular basis .. there was a series about flight training with the cougars ... the cold lake training base ... near the end of the series they show an interception flight ... so yes the mission STILL exists ... and we still use inferior planes to do what a 70 year old plane was designed for using IC chips ... not surface mount not special silicone wafer designs that incorporate a full computer main board on a 3 inch wafer of silicone ... the old 1/2 inch wide 1 inch long chips ... heck just change the computer to surface mount technology and you make the computer 1/3d the size and a lot lighter as well ... and thats just ONE bit of tech ... include modern composites such as carbon fiber ... or ceramic coated fabric and kevlar .. as well as modern machining and casting techniques and you take a 70 year old design from 65,000 lbs weight dry and drop easily 5,000 pounds from it ... more is more probable ... no the arrow is still the best fighter interceptor to this day ... and it was cancelled because deifenbaker listened to the sob story of how american fighter jet industry would suffer from such a superior plane at the time ...
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70 years and it still hasnt been beaten ...
@@0623kaboom ..."Hasn't been beaten"? Seriously? None of what you said is true. No, the airframe wasn't built to go Mach 7. Yes, fighters intercept bombers...no, nobody builds pure interceptors anymore, except Russia.
This nonsense about the Arrow being superior to modern fighters just sounds like the wehraboos that say the Tiger I was the peer of modern tanks.
The Arrow wasn't even superior to the Phantom of its day, except maybe in range. It carried less armament than the Phantom, was slower, had a lower ceiling, and was only useful for one job - interception - while the Phantom did about everything under the sun, with a higher armament load, at a higher speed and altitude than the Arrow.
The Arrow was a hot dedicated interceptor at a time when the dedicated interceptor had become obsolete.
Top video Dark Skies, i can feel for the Canadians, we suffered a similar fate with the TSR2. Please do a Dark video on TSR2.
I touched the engine once, the last one in existence as far as I know, at the Warplane Heritage Museum in Hamilton Ontario. I know you're not supposed to, but I was only a little kid then. I think I touched the Lancaster as well. I grew up in Burlington and used to see the Lancaster flying around at certain times of year when they'd fly it.
They still fly the Lancaster, the museum sells flights regularly.
So many outstanding Ideas in aviation were left behind on the modern race in air superiority...
The space race was the major reason I think.
odd how many rather believe it was a conspiracy,instead of the end of a generation in air combat
Saddest moment in Canadian history
No, saddest moment in Canadian history is the day the turd got elected...
@@devolution1310 no, the saddest day was the day Herr Harper was elected.
@@johnandrews3568 Respectfully disagree. Much rather have an actual economist with a backbone instead of a pedophile drama teacher with neeto socks who is in the back pocket of the money that runs the world as PM. But this is not the place for that discussion.
Harper was getting us out of debt. The Turdo has put is in more debt than all the previous prime ministers combined. This is fact.
@@Steph-lv5fg yeah cuz of something called COVID? Perhaps you've heard of it. What IS a FACT is that Herr Harper actually inherited a MASSIVE surplus that he not only burned through in record time but amassed the biggest non-pandemic induced deficit in the history of Canada. FACT! He did NOTHING to get Canada out of debt but everything to pad his pockets and put us in so much economic trouble, it's not funny. Don't put the covid deficit on sock boy. I'm not fan of his, but he can't wear that because EVERY world leader is in the same boat.
It was an interceptor and there were other interceptors that matched that speed and were in service before the arrow's first test flights. The F-106 and the arrow had the same speed at Mach 2.3, the F-106 was in service in late 1959 a full 3 years before the arrow was planned to enter service if the project didn't get delayed any further. I certainly wouldn't call it's performance legendary while compared to it's contemporaries:
- F-4 Phantom (Mach 2.23, Combat Range: 680km, Ceiling: 60,000 ft, Entered Service: late 1960)
- F-106 (Mach 2.3, Combat Range: 926km, Ceiling 57,000 ft, Entered Service mid to late 1959)
- SAAB Draken (Mach 2.0, Combat Range: 560km, Ceiling: 66,000 ft, Entered Service: Early 1960)
- English Lightning (Mach 2.0, Combat Range 250km supersonic, Ceiling 54,000 ft, Entered Service 1959)
- Mirage III (Mach 1.9, Combat Range 1,200 km, Ceiling 56,000 ft, Entered Service: 1961)
- Avro Arrow (Mach 2.3 Potential, Combat Range 660km, Ceiling 56,000 ft, Planned to Enter Service Late 1962 or 1963)
I think Diefenbaker gets a bad rap when it comes to the cancellation of the project, I don't think it would have mattered who was in office at the time there were a number of factors that influenced the decision to end it.
- The project was really expensive, it was over $200 million dollars back in the early 1960's (which would be $1.7 Billion 2019). It would be hard to justify spending that on that aircraft when you could get a very similar one that was already proven and in use with the F-106 and was significantly cheaper to purchase (Arrow between 5 -10 Million per unit vs F-106 which was 3 - 5 million per unit).
- The interceptor airframe was obsolete by the time the arrow was in development. By the time the 1960s rolled around the threat of high altitude bombers was replaced by ICBMs. Interceptors were starting to get phased out and replaced with multi role aircraft which are still in use today.
- Avro didn't have much success with their previous designs (CF-100) and the arrow project was falling behind on delivery by the time it was decided to cancel the project.
- There was pressure from the US, but it was more selling on the fact that interceptors were not the future but the BOMARC system was being sold as the way to go.
There are a lot of factors in the cancellation, but I can understand why the decision was made to scrap the whole thing.
Some of your info is a bit inaccurate. The actual cost of the Arrow project was $400 million Cdn. After the Arrow was cancelled Canada purchesed 64 operational CF101B Voodos for just over $ 100 million or about 1/4 the cost of what they had already blown with AV Roe on R & D for the Arrow project. That extra $ 300 million could have gone a long ways in the 1950's
One of your best videos
Great video , this very project was the reason I left Canada .I was able to work on many jobs in the advanced aircraft field in the U S . Keep up the great videos .👍👍.
The brain drain post this cancellation probably hurts us to this day.
There's a decent 90's Dan Aykroyd movie about the production of this jet, worth a watch. It's called The Arrow.
The Bomarc missle and politics killed it and as you mentioned, some of the most brilliant Canadian minds went to U.S. Aerospace.
Avro CF-105 Arrow, le meilleur de son époque, sans aucun doute!
Great video. My grandfather participated in the creation of the avro arrow project as an welder I believe. I remember I was told Canada was pressured by other nations to stop the project or they will be entering the cold war.
Cool video.
This aircraft has been a legend for decades.
Perhaps the purchase of I.B.Ms
and why all airframes and jigs were destroyed so quickly needs investigating.
@Peter C These two videos explain what happened based on the actual archival record. The US did not want Canada to complete the development. czcams.com/video/ulCTf-KJ2Eo/video.html Update USA
czcams.com/video/fdxum2OiBeQ/video.html The Avro Arrow: For the Record.
@Peter C - A better word: obsolete.
I live 20 mins from Avro Arrow Rd near parry sound Ont.
Occasionally a few of us take the 4wheelers through the property and there's actually still some of the structures left. We were even able to locate the cradles where they test fired the jet engines. Its certainly pretty cool to see.
It would be interesting for a historian and a futurist to collaborate on a what if scenario for Canada, had the Arrow project continued.
another youtuber has a video series done in a virtual environment on the one that got way scenario ... it is well done and very good to watch ... I believe it is Virtual environs who did this and he mentions in his series some people who assisted him in the creation of it and keeping it as fact oriented as could be done with in reason
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as for the "pne that got away" theory ... sadly no one plane didnt vanish ... BUT the iroquois ps13 engine attached to the american bomber for flight testing was not present the day after cancellation nor had the engine been removed from the bomber at this time ... and yet people still heard the unmistakable sound of an iroquois engine running and leaving ...
it is my belief that the one that got away was the first ps13 engine attached to the bomber ... and it went south of the border
Some planes will always look cool. Arrow, b58 hustler, tomcat, etc
Tomcat was a Beauty !!!
The beautiful Arrow. Canada's TSR2. Both aircraft way ahead of their time. Both cancelled because of beaurocratic pig-ignorance and shortsightedness. I always wonder that, had they been produced, if variants would still be in use today? I mean the B52 is still being updated and used, and, in the scheme of things, that's not a revolutionary aircraft. It's a great aircraft for sure, but not futuristic like the Arrow or TSR2.
More like both cancelled because of American interference and greed!
The B-52 is a bomb truck and has the ability to launch ALBMs.
The Arrow was an outdated interceptor before it the first one was even built. It wasn't revolutionary at all
@@B-A-L Le epic "american interference" scapegoat. It's incredible how you can't accept the fact that it was a costly project and was an average plane at best. America had built and flown the F-106, the fastest single engine fighter in the world, and was just introducing the F-4 Phantom II
@@B-A-L you’re just a xenophobic America hater who scapegoats literally everything on America
The difference being that the F106 wasn't so loved by the USAF, was build in "only" 340 units, and was never employed in combat, perhaps because was too dedicated and lacked the flexibility needed to a combat aircraft.
So Avro sold all their machine tools which were capable of working titanium in 1959 and the USA was designing the SR-71 with a titanium airframe. The first flight of a Blackbird prototype was in 1962. It makes me wonder if Canada figured out that the project was going to be prohibitively expensive and let the USA bear the cost. I'm not complaining. Both aircraft were amazing achievements. The Blackbird was retired due to its high operating expense and improved satellite imaging. Excellent video.
When that happened it drove home the fact that while Canada is a geographically big country, it is also a small country sometimes led by small, petty leaders.
The avro was costing way to much for us canadians they couldnt keep dumping money into it. But i think they should of tried to sell the planes and the engines that was done by small minded people.
@@dwoolaver1549 They did try but nobody wanted them.
Excellent video! What a great never built project!
"...the first all-Canadian aircraft..."
Stares in CF-100 Canuck.
It’s typical of Dark Series videos. Poor research and horrible pronunciations.
It’s Canuck, not Canook.
@@CanuckPlay yeah, what the fook was that all about?
I think there are just a handful of dark videos that have the title. A success
Criminal. What a beautiful aircraft. There's a saying "If it looks right, it flies right."
My father worked for Canadian Marconi in Montreal and remembers that day very well as he had to tell all the employees that had been hired that they no longer had a job. Let’s just say he doesn’t hold a very high opinion of the conservative government of the day. That plane exceeded everything it was designed for and could’ve been leading fighter of the day. Very good video. And if that last plane exists I hope to see it before I’m too old to travel. PS my father is still alive at 92 years old.
Wow what an aircraft!! Congratulations Canada. The similarities between the Arrow and the later U. S. Phantom are astonishing.
Never ever heard of the Arrow before this video. Thank you!!
Later?
Phantom entered service in 1958, the Arrow was cancelled as incomplete in 1959.
Very well done.
ask any random canadian "what is the arrow"
9 times out of 10 they would know
Amazing work. In talking with 2 or 3 former employees I believe it was the first aircraft to institute a 10,000 psi hydraulic system. It was the thin wing that dictated the need for a more efficient hydraulic system.
No aircraft has a 10,000 psi hydraulic system, period.
4,000 psi due to the wing thickness necessitating smaller working surface area for hydraulics.
I have never seen any data stating what the hydraulic system pressure was ... it was a beast though and had to be ... and dont forget the arrow has 15 firsts of jet fighters ... that includes the triple redundancy flight controls ... fly by wire fly by hydraulics and fly by manual with a separate hydraulic system assist ...
Canada is like that really talented kid at school that the teacher always says has such great potential.. but then the kid always makes the worst decisions, doing the complete opposite of what they should be doing to benefit themselves.
Yup, that's my country..
Canada in a nutshell.
One of the few Orenda Iroquois engines is at the AgentJayZ channel, in a Jet engine shop there. Great channel. Look back a year or two for the tour of the Iroquois.
So many Canadians like me have a special place in our hearts for this aircraft and wish it hadn’t ended how it did. Could have completely changed the course of Canadian history and dare I say world history.
If it’s as special to you as it is to me - if you haven’t heard yet, there’s a 60% scale (to keep the weight within limits for rec aircraft) piloted replica under construction just West of Calgary. I was there yesterday checking the progress. My good friend is the project manager & I’m going to be volunteering helping out on the project 😊
WOOO CANADA
Such a shame, who knows how Canada’s aviation industry would have developed if this program went on. Time has also shown that fighters and interceptors played a pivitol role in the following years and still now well into this century. Canadian procurement and politics at their worst here…
I worked on the ‘prop plane’ for the movie. My first movie gig ever. Full scale prop that was able to taxi at about 4 mph using a bunch of batteries and dc hydraulic motors. Steering was a ‘tiller’ for the nose wheel. The tail had to be removable to exit the hanger we built it in.
That was my introduction to the Avro Arrow. My interest in the plane hasn’t waned and that is why I’m watching this now. Canuck mispronunciation withstanding.
My grandfather work there, and he was never the same after black Friday according to my dad. I had an opportunity to work in the same buildings as a Safety Student, fire prevention officer, when the site was owned by McDonnell Douglas Canada. The ghosts of the Arrows were still present in the buildings, and at that time you could still find Avro inventory control tags on furniture in the engineering areas, second floor A building. My best find was the tail section of a Mighty Mouse Fin rocket in one of the range butts. Good times but sad. Now the sight is field; the ghosts have been exorcised - but not the memories.
One of the most beautiful planes ever they could of at least put a prototype in a museum instead of scrapping them...criminal
At least one of the scale model prototypes have been recovered from Lake Ontario and will end up being displayed once restoration work is completed. I'd agree at least one of the aircraft should have been saved for the Canadian Air and Space Museum, it seems extremely short sighted to scrap all of them.
It seems to me that although the Arrow project was closed, the technology learnt from it and the skills learnt, did benefit the aero industry massively. Just a shame the world moved on....
It seemed to benefit the US rather than Canada itself. And that's what hurts so much about it. To Canadians, its a symbol of what could have been.
I grew up around the city this was built in! The Arrow was one cool looking plane!
There was a great movie about it...
A beautiful and sad story at the same time...
What a magnificent machine it was...
I can proudly say that I knew about this aircraft before this video