Bought a couple of R93 BLASER's back in the 90's; the 308WIN one shot one holers with tuned hand LOADS right out of the box, but the 338 LAPUA one would string out the shots out to the right in an arch as the barrel heated from each consecutive shot. Systematically check everything; barrel screws, stock screws, scope mount screws, even sent the Night Force scope back to have it checked. Could not find anything wrong to cause the stringing out of the shots. Out of desperation and out of options, paid to have the barrel cryogenic treaded in spite of the guy giving the treatment warned me that it may not do anything, that there's no guarantee, but I was desperate. Got the barrel back, slapped it on, slapped on the scope, and headed of to the range. Problem gone! The POI was now steady as a rock! 👍 That was something like two decades ago. It typically holds ⅝ MOA groups with Sierra 3000 HPBTMK bullets since then.
Another thumbs up video Ron. About 15 years ago a couple of my buddies got their rifles cryogenically treated or whatever the term is, and asked why I hadn’t done some of mine. They listed all the reasons Ron talked about. I spoke with a gunsmith about it. He went into specifics that are way over my head but basically said that while it wouldn’t turn a rifle shooting 3” groups into a one holer, it could make a noticeable difference for longer range. He said if my rifle held 6” groups at 600 he typically would expect to see it tighten up to maybe 4” or 4-1/2”. I don’t do it an any of mine because I don’t hunt at 600 yards. If I shot F-class I would probably look into it. This was a good 15 years ago so they probably have made improvements on the cryo process now. But since my hunting rifles give me sub-moa groups out past 600 anyway, I don’t see the need. I have a 6.5-300 Weatherby and the velocity is all they claim. I like heavier bullets so I was looking for something to shoot a 6.5 bullet of 140+ grains with more authority then the 6.5cm. I believe mine is the Weathermark version and I forget the twist. With 140’s it was a 1-1/2” gun @ 100. When I tried the Sciroccos I got just inside an inch. I switched to the 127 LRX and they give me nice clover groups around 1/2” with blistering MV over 3500fps. On a good day I can get 4” groups at 600. There is great cost for this performance. First, it’s LOUD. If you go on a guided hunt make sure you warn the guide before pulling the trigger. Second is recoil. Even with the factory muzzle brake you get a fairly good pop to the shoulder. As far as barrel life… I have always found that keeping the barrel cool really stretches my barrel life. If I set my bare wrist on the barrel and it’s uncomfortable, I let the rifle cool before shooting again. I have between 400 and 500 rounds on the barrel with minimal signs of throat erosion. This is not a round for long days at the bench. Now that I have my pet load I probably won’t run a box or so per year through it, especially at $80/box with todays prices. Should last the rest of my days. I can tell you that this is a Hammer on deer. Haven’t tried it on anything else yet.
Go to your favorite restaurant/pan store and buy a 2 gallon aluminum stock pot. Put it on a stove with neck meat inside and fill with water enough to cover the neck pieces (usually cut through about every 3 vertebrae with a Sawzall). Heat for 1.5 hours occasionally rotating the product pieces and you will have a broth you would pay a ton for. I personally add rosmary, thyme, salt and pepper and keep it simple. After 1.5 hours, you can generally reach in with long tongs and pull the neck vertebrae out easily. If not, go a little longer. Once you have the neck bones, turn the heat down to a simmer and keep it going for about another 1/2 hour. Then you can pull the big meat pieces out easily and the cartilage will be completely liquified to collagen in the broth. You can use it just like that with the meat pieces as gravy base (makes mean biscuits and gravy) or you can strain through a sieve and remove all the pieces of meat and can it/freeze it in blocks. We put it into the cheap glad plastic containers you get in the plastic bag section of the supermarket and freeze it like that. Then when you want some venison soup base, just remove from the fridge, let it sit in the pan with a little water in it, until you can dump out the frozen broth and make venison stew/gravy etc. Another great way is braising it with a 40 ouncer or two of Miller Highlife or similar full bodied beer, but I prefer Miller. I put it in a roaster with sage, thyme, rosemary, garlic, salt and pepper and keep basting it with the beer liquid. Once in a while during the process, you rotate the pieces up to the top and let the ones on top move to the bottom with tongs. Once the meat starts falling apart and the vertebrae come loose, remove them and you have a WHOLE pan of deliciousness. Your house will smell so good, you can hardly wait to let it cool! Takes about 6 hours. Also works terrific with shanks or the foreleg from the elbow to the knee of the front and back legs of the deer. I used to always cut them off and discard them, then tried braising like this and it's to die for. ;)
Cryo treated metals have been used in musical instruments, knife steels, and now rifle barrels. What goes on is the molecular structure is packed together more tightly and as it is warmed or thawed at an slow given rate the steel structure grain is somewhat organized if you will or uniform grain structure. The knife guys and knife fans that study metallurgy take a deep dive into cryo treatments and it was a big deal with 5160 and 52100 high carbon steels.
The M1 carbine was first conceived as a personal defensive weapon for non-combat personnel operating in forward areas where contact with the enemy was likely. Such a truck drivers and engineers and combat personnel other than infantry or rifleman, like artillery crews. The 1911 pistol or the M1 Sub machine gun (Thompson) were the options at the time. The M1 SMG was heavy , burned ammo quickly and many soldiers had a hard time controlling the full auto fire. The 1911 pistol proved hard to score hits with by personnel in support roles. Once the M1 carbine was fielded many more roles were found for it. Like sentries, guards and MRS. The Army Air Corps and Navy considered it for Air crews, but mostly opted to stay with the 1911 as it could already be on the gear when they bailed out of their aircraft.
300Below in Dectaur Illinois are the founding fathers of cryo treatment. I couldn't have asked for a better experience and their customer service is second to none.
Former Army Sapper here. The 30 gave cooks, and dental hygienists something to defend themselves with...it was better than a 1911, but lighter and handy-er than a 06 battle rifle.
when I was a kid and started going hunting with my dad, he always said "we don't waste the meat!" and since I was oh about 8yrs old I've been starving the other animals on this planet. I and my wife take as much of the meat as we can possible get off the bone then we crack the bones, boil them and we have broth for our dog and cat in the winter time plus we can strain it for recipes for us.
@@montaego Although I do find it enlightening that some of the same people most incensed about hunters "wasting" game will leave considerable food on their plates, toss moldy fruits and vegetables from their fridges, etc.
I am super excited for this! I can't say say there are many things I can say I haven't seen - when it comes to guns - and this REALLY caught me by surprise!
Ron Spomer I think when you said "Glorified pistol cartridge" in reference to the .30 carbine, you may have just summed it up perfectly in your own way. Think of it as the 'Pistol Caliber Carbine' of it's era. Perhaps similar to a Winchester 73 carbine in... 32-20? A moderately peppy round for close range in a light and handy carbine. Better than a pistol at 80 yards but no battle rifle. Hope that helps. Enjoying your work Sir.
The M1 Carbine and .30 Carbine round were developed as a substitute for the 1911 pistol and the .45 ACP.. The Army knew they wouldn't be able to have enough 1911s manufactured for WWII and they wanted non-combat personnel like cooks and drivers and clerks to have a firearm. It was never intended to be issued to frontline troops. At 100 yards the standard 115 gr ball round has about the same energy and velocity as a .357 Magnum round.
neck meat . great stuff ! I’m from the UK and Lamb stew was/is mostly made from neck meat cooked on the bone in the stew itself. “Best end of neck” my mother used to ask for.
😁 I can't wait to see what you have found on the subject and also whom your sources of information are from? This has been a Hot Topic for a while among shooters (and even barrel makers) and I appreciate you Tackling this Issue! I hope I had some influence into "baiting you into" trying to address this subject? 🤭 Even barrel makers have some disagreements as to this! Some (like Kreiger) use it in various stages of the barrel making process (while others) like Shilen don't (and even some, only use this process on the steel blank before making the barrel)! Of course, it depends upon your barrel making process (ex. button vs cut), materials the barrel is made from and carbon content (ex. stainless steal vs. chrome molly), barrel shape (ex. standard barrel vs. fluted or octogonal), etc...! Factors to consider from this barrel hardening/stress relief process include - barrel life, barrel accuracy (from the change in barrel vibratory motion), and resultant bullet velocity! Are you going to give us a "Tutorial" in Metallurgy Ron? I can't wait! 🕵️♂️
Cryogenic barrels I all about stress relieving to my knowledge and you're 100% correct a barrel that's been properly stress relieved with hold accuracy at much higher temperatures. Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
30 Carbine was designed to take the place of handguns for guys that could not shoot them well, the light hand low recoil could be shot well at the closer distances. the gun was very handy in tight spots like fox holes and buildings
Cryogenics have been used fairly extensively in the racing world as well. Thanks for reminding me of it, I have a rifle I've been contemplating a new barrel for, I just may have er deep frozen.
omg I could not have said it better re: 308. 110% agreed. Most people forget the military has other issues that performance to consider when adopting a cartridge - eg logistics, NATO, training, squad tactics, etc. The 556 suffers from this, bad.
For the guy asking about the use of soft point bullets, especially for hunting, a modern version I've had great success with is Nosler's Partition. The Partition addresses the issues you mentioned about losing too much mass after expansion, and they work very well for me and penetrate very well. I use the 160 grn Partition in my 7mm Mag.
@@WayStedYou well, modern compared to the 100 year old jacketed soft points he was referring to. I've been loading Partitions for 30 years, so maybe not so modern, but no less effective.
Great bullet from 1948, Todd, but I'm not quite sure we can call it a soft point. It certainly has a soft lead, exposed nose, but it's internal partition wall of jacket material puts it in the controlled expansion class to my way of thinking. Guess it's kind of a combo soft point, solid shank.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware the Partition was that old, but Nosler had a great idea even back then. I've been reloading using 140 grn Ballistic Tips for about 20 years and 160 grn Partitions for about 30. I've had great success with both in my favorite hunting rifle - a Remington 700 in 7mm Magnum. I've yet to recover a Partition bullet from an animal as they have always passed through, and have always been effective with one shot. I stumbled on your podcast about a month ago and you're now my favorite channel. Back in the 1980s and 1990s I used to subscribe to a few hunting magazines, namely American Hunter and Deer and Deer Hunting, and I would pick up a few others from time to time. I remember your name from some of the stories I read in those old magazines years ago. It's good to know you're still out there hunting and loving life. I'd love to have had 10% of the hunting opportunities you've had over the years. I've always wanted to hunt the western states, and especially mule deer and pronghorn. Maybe someday as retirement is coming soon. Consider yourself a lucky man.
🤔 If you like the Nosler Partition, you'll love the performance of the Swift A-Frame - because it is the bonded version of the Nosler Partition and is even tougher (it retains weight its weight better and will give you a perfect mushroom every time if you are shooting at reasonable hunting distances with that 7mm - i.e. within 500 yards)! 👍
LMAO!!! Hey Ron, can you compare a smart car to a Ferrari? Just poking some fun but that comparison surprised me. Kudos for you for not even skipping a beat. I would have been left a little speechless for a minute.
What about the guy who knows what the 308 is and chooses it for it's versatility, practicality, availability, and lower price than other medium rifle rounds? I've been geeking out on buying a "dream gun" with a carbon barrel, and I was really sweating the cambering, but I kept coming back to the 308 because the price and availability of ammo are so great. It has enough power to take any game in North America with brown bear being somewhat risky, and moose needing a closer shot. Here in the mountains of NC the 308 is plenty of power for any game at any reasonable range. I can get cheap soft point ammo and take deer or hogs, or buy some premium ammo and go get an elk if I ever get to do that. The last thing that really sold me on the 308 is the best barrel life for anything in it's power class. I know it's not the flattest shooting, or the most powerful, but it really is enough for almost any hunter in the US. It might not be the best precision rifle round, but the military still trains their snipers on the 308. It excels at being "good enough"
Point made and point taken, Ben! I can't argue with any of your reasoning. It is spot on. As I said in one of my videos, the 308 Winchester is a Goldilocks cartridge.
I utilize neck meat for a roast. Excellent in a crock pot for 6-8 hours depending how big it is. Also I've rolled& tied a neck roast with seasonings & garlic wrapped in bacon on the grill!
Venison neck roast in a crock pot is one of our family favorites. Start it in the morning on Low and by 5pm you have some of the most tender venison youve ever had. I use a 1/4 cup of dark beer and a liberal amount of seasonings plus the onions, mushrooms and celery. No bone, I fillet the meat off the bone, but I know some people who do the bone-in version. Either way its well worth the few minutes of cleaning. As Ron says its also great for sausage/jerky.
The .30 Carbine was developed because they needed a compact firearm that they could carry more ammo for than the Garand, but that gave superior range to the .45 ACP from the Thompson. It was also made in several special configurations adapted for use during parachuting by paratroopers with a folding stock and tankers liked it as well, because it was handy and they could pop out of the tank and take some shots quick at infantry flanking the tanks. I own one that was used during WWII that my Grandfather brought home. I think the A2 version also, which was select fire, was still hugely popular even into the Vietnam era for people like Corpsman who were carrying a lot of medical supplies and didn't want a heavy rifle, but needed more than a handgun. My dad was such a Corpsman and a lot of his fellows opted for an A2 with the rear part of the stock sawed off. This made a very handy weapon to fire from the hip. The carbine is so light also, compared to the 10+ pound Garand that many still prefer it in some ways. Finally, they also wanted a firearm with a box magazine that would allow them to shoot more than the garand could hold. The 20 round mags were very popular and were preferred to the 10 rounders. If you want an interesting watch, find a copy of the movie, "Carbine Williams" who was played by James Stewart. I got a copy for my Dad and watched it with him before he died. Pretty poor screenplay by todays standards, but very interesting and the actual individual and his family weighed in on it as I understand. It is an anemic .30 Cal, but has it's place out to 100 yards. I've killed a lot of woodchucks with mine and it was my dad's favorite deer hunting rifle for pushing corn fields, because of it's quick follow-up shots and with soft points, it's about like a 300 blackout with tiny bullets. ;)
I have had several of my barrels Cryo and it worked in the barrels I had done and seemed to make the barrel twist as much when very hot. Also on the super magnum barrels will last a little longer I have found on the 28 Nosler I had before I gave it to my son
The .277 x 51 has really piqued my interest now that it is officially the new cartridge of the military. It's gonna be a fun adventure. Lotsa pressure is going to force new alloys and case development. Steel may be the wave of that cartridge's future. Yeah, soft point bullets, I've loaded a few thousand .223 soft point 55gr bullets. At 200 yds, they punch right through 1/4" diamond plate steel, at 300 they, blister the back and occasionally punch through. These are not loaded to max specs., they're just very accurate in my rifles. Add a little weight, 62gr bullets, they punch through at 300yds consistently. I'd not want to be standing in the bullet path even at 450yds as they smack a 10" x 3/4" mild steel plate quite well. I consider them a good varmint round, both two and four legged.
30 carbine was made to make a much more lethal replacement for having a pistol. It's basically like firing a 357 magnum out of a levergun in terms of power.
I have been reading about cryo. Think of it as a heat (thermal) treatment. Cryo also will change the chemical /physical structure of the carbon that does harden the steel.
30 carbine breig part of the militaries small rifle program, looking at the time to be effective at 300 yards from a shorter and lighter rifle than the M1. Being more effective ballistically than 45 acp and some have said was supposed to replace the 1911 side arm for support troops which it did not do. Great little cartridge for its intended purpose, each cartridge having a niche almost and personal sentimental values to some.
Hey Ron, I‘d love to hear you expand on the term "harvesting an animal". I, too, take issue with it as it somewhat downplays (to me at least) the significance of what we’re doing: killing. Messing up the harvest of a potato is not a big deal but mess up the shot on an animal and you just caused a sentient, emotional, social being gruesome suffering. Hunting an animal is decidedly not like harvesting produce and we‘d do well to remember that.
Bork, "harvesting" came into vogue roughly in the 1980s as hunters tried to sugar-coat what we do to placate the increasingly sensitive urban/suburban citizen. There is some validity to it, too, since we are collecting, gathering, "putting up for winter," the fall "harvest" of venison, same as we do potatoes, onions, squash, etc. Alas, Disney, Hollywood, and urban pop culture has done such a good gob of demonizing killing and butchering animals that addressing it straight up became offensive. Quite similar to death and dying. We now "step over a rainbow," pass, pass on, pass away, go to our everlasting reward -- anything but die. Euphemisms. By saying we "harvest" game, we do nudge people into seeing hunting as a variant of the autumnal garden harvest, but quickly enough they see through this as an attempt to detract from the reality of killing, which is distasteful. I'm not sure this is effective or useful, but even I inwardly wince when I say I "killed a deer." Much as I cringe at the evasive use of "harvest," so do I dislike hearing goose hunters, for instance, shout "kill 'em!" before rising from the blind and blasting away, then whooping and high fiving. Looks crass, insensitive. So, two extremes. How should we handle it? I'm not sure, but surely we ought to kill with respect and some decorum. Yes, it's natural to celebrate and/or release the tension with shouts of joy, back thumping, etc., but at the same time there should be a bit of reverence and appreciation shown to the quarry, to God or Nature for the bounty, etc. This is the kind of behavior non-hunters can respect. So is appreciation for and use of the meat, hides, etc. The whole idea is to somehow demonstrate through words and actions the whole of what hunting means and is -- a natural, useful, necessary, good utilization of Nature's bounty. It's the sustainable, all-organic, endlessly renewable use of non-polluting, recycled resources just as Nature/God designed. Hunters are an essential part of the cycle of life. Creating this myth that killing and meat eating are affronts against Nature is a disservice to the Her that will come back -- is coming back -- to haunt us. The more we refuse to use Nature's abundance, the more we destroy Her, replace her with manmade, artificial plants and, now, meat. We've already rejected Natures renewable plant and animal coverings (fur, leather, wool, etc.) in favor of petrochemical polyesters and plastics of various kinds. It's a big topic worthy of research, contemplation, and discussion. So, my compromise is to say "I shot a deer" or pheasant etc. Or simply I got my deer or filled my elk tag, etc. From there the discussion can progress to how hard it was getting the meat out or when the family will cut and wrap or make sausage, etc. Thanks for asking, Bork.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast great comment, Ron. And despite our best efforts, I don't think there is anything warmer than wool, especially if it gets damp. I wear a lot of wool under my camo and in my boots. Enjoyed your podcast.
@@wrenchoperator6435 Yes, wool, especially merino, has come back strong in recent years and is a good example of natural, renewable source. There are issues with overgrazing and disease transmission from domestic to wild sheep, but wool is a fine option.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast You could really do an entire show on this. When it comes to hunting, the killing is the part I hate the most. We always say a prayer of thanks after each harvest (sorry I know you dont like that, but that's the term we use and see it fitting as we are there to harvest meat, horns are just a bonus) and pay respect to the animal for the ultimate sacrifice given to us. I get so beyond irritated when I hear people say "smoked him" its is just plain ignorant and barbaric. Who Tee Who could use some learning in that department. To each their own, but I do think harvest is a fitting word to use that is more delicate and respectful to others and spreads a more humane outlook to other non-hunters in a time when hunting could use all of that it can get.
I'm not partial to any brand of rifle or caliber but I am to the 308 Winchester "family" of calibers as well at the 7X57 Mauser Family. I own almost every caliber from those brass cases and handload for all of them. I would love to take all of them out of their stocks and have them cryogenically frozen which is something on my mind for a couple years now.
I thought forsure be was gonna say .308 is one he doesn't like we all know it's not his favorite lol I like the..308 alot mostly for the ammo avaliable and the cost and the performance
Here is the techy version; yes I am a licensed professional mechanical engineer. When steel is formed, it is heated from a ferrite crystal structure until it turns to a crystal structure called Austenite, then it is cooled to form the harder, stronger structure called Martensite. But there is always retained austenite (in some alloys up to 17%) in the steel. Cryoquenching converts the retained austenite to the harder, stronger martensite crystal structure. Austenite is weaker than martensite, and has a different physical volume (about 14% larger), and as such the retained austenite also creates internal stresses in the material; tiny pressure centers attempting to expand the metal and induce internal cracking along grain dislocations, as well as lending to slight changes in the barrel dimensions. Once converted to marteniste through cryoquenching, the homogeneous steel structure is somewhat normalized at higher temperatures to reduce the brittleness of the steel. A secondary advantage of cryoquenching is that the dispersion of alloying metals is improved, as well as the formation of chromium carbides, and the precipitation of micro eta-carbides which fill voids in the micro-structure dislocations in the steel, all of which improve the strength and durability of the material.
nothing better than a neck roast ..slow cooked with carrots and potatoes drippings made into a good gravy....those bones aren't a problem at all if you ask me....
I remember seeing Benelli was doing cryogenically frozen barrels over a decade ago in a large scale At the time they were saying it approved both accuracy and barrel life quite a bit
Cryogenic treatment of metals is a German invention, specifically for the 440C stainless steel. They did not use it for straight carbon steel. The M1 Carbine was mostly a substitute for a pistol, and Jeeps kept the majority of them when transporting officers to and from the front. Just looking at the cartridge shows its more pistol than rifle.
I have a rock river arms lar 8 which is a ar 10. The barrel is cryogenically treated. Bought it about 6 years ago and only shot it a few times with iron sights,few weeks ago I finally mounted a meopta scope on it and took it in the back yard just to get it on paper and a gun that I was not familiar with, I had the holes touching at about 50 yards, that was with bulk, jacketed bullets fiocchi. I'm curious about its accuracy at about 200 yards. That was about 6 weeks ago and I have large fields bordering my property and haven't shot it since, there was a time, when I couldn't wait.
I think that you know 2 folks that have taken critters with 6.5-300Wby. Joseph Von Benedict took a black bear with Adam Weatherby using the 6.5-300Wby the year before it was intro'd. Eh... That might have been the 6.5 RPM on second thought 🤔
Cryo heat treat is only a thing with stainless really. Chromium content which that makes it be stainless, requires the cryo part for the heat treat to be useful. I think that these use the cryo term is a sales thing mostly. Simply barrels have to be heat treated. If they re stainless barrels, they have to be cryo frozen during that h.t. process. It's kind of a given to anyone knowing metallurgy...
Hi Ron. Great good natured video. I like the neck meat. Can be a bit "strong" flavored for some people's taste, if from a rutting buck or bull. I usually cube it for chili or ranch beans. Also good in fajitas. I'm not big on ground beef, meatloaf and spaghetti sauce mainly, but which fat do you use when grinding yours? I tried both pork fat and beef tallow. Keep well. Cheers Jeff
For many decades I added no fat to my ground venison, especially deer fat. Had to treat the burger meat like steak and not overcook. And, yes, it was a bit harder to keep the patties from crumbling. But doable. In recent years we've begun adding a small quantity of beef tallow. Elk or moose would be better! Pork fat is wonderful if you know its trichinosis free. With wild pork I always wonder. And I don't want to overcook my venison to treat for potential trich in the pork fat, so... usually reserve that for sausage.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Ron, thank you for the reply. I never thought of tric. Guess I should stop living like a caveman. All the best you. Cheers, Jeff
We use beef fat for burger and pork fat/meat for sausage and various other processed meats. When making sausage for instance, we use a ground pork butt to mix with the wild game to the proper ratio, which is usually 70/30. We like ours a leaner and usually do 80 wild/20 pork. When you grind the pork, do not trim it!! just remove the bone if it is still in it and cut into grindable sized chunks and course grind. Mix with the wild game and grind again with the spices. Perfection!! We really enjoy the seasonings from Hi Mountain, especially the Mountain Man blend.
I really like 308 Win and think it's a great all-around cartridge. A great long range cartridge? Absolutely not. Nor a great short range. Nor a great mid range. But it'll do short and midrange often acceptably and kill stuff at those ranges and have great barrel life without heavy recoil. When I got started, I liked 308 Win for everything. Now, I'm more into 223 Rem and 300 WSM. 223 Rem is my mid range plinker and 300 WSM is my long range and hunting cartridge.
Neck meat is wonderful. I remove what I can with the knife, and grind for burger. I then cut the neck into sections that will fit in my largest pot. Slow simmer that for several hours for a wonderful soup base, broth, or pick the meat off for a bbq sandwich and then save the broth. Delicious stuff.
One caveat, Mr. Slover: The prions that cause CWD in deer are concentrated in the brain, spinal column, and some lymph nodes high in the neck. I'm not sure eating such parts is a good idea. CWD hasn't been found to infect humans, but one might not want to take unnecessary chances.
30 Carbine was intended to be more capable than a handgun for soldiers that were too loaded down special equipment. Such as engineers, radio operators etc, who couldn't carry a Garand.
Rather than grind try Dutch oven for your neck and shoulder roasts. Low and slow with some carrots garlic and onions. Wine for liquid. Thank me later. Find a simple recipe. Lots of them out there. Enjoy.
I didn't know the 243 WSSM was plagued by too short chambers and/or too long cases. If it is, it's in good company with more than two dozen other cartridges including 25-06, 243 Win., 308 Win. , 30-06, 270 Win. etc. And many of these have a larger av. difference in length than the 243 WSSM, so I doubt Delta L contributed to the cartridge's early retirement.
Ok Ron..i got a question for you..how many "safe queens" do you have??? i just wondered..i;ve got a few :safe queens" but i got more working rifles than those..and if you don't mind if not to hard could you list them or some of them and cal. maker and mod.
Here's one not many amercans have tried The final part of the deers alimentary tract makes what we called a puff adder Its short and fatty and you get the liver and a chopped onion and make a sausage that you grill on the coals. We call it braai You barbecue... Which is an American Indian term i believe. Anyway the fat makes it moist Ps This is not a joke. Its utterly delicious
Witnessed a soft point failure with a Core-Lokt 180gr 300 Win mag and an unexpected 35-40 yard shot on a mature doe. Both shoulders were a lost cause, and she hit the deck like earth increased the gravity to twelve on her. No exit though. Bullet integrity completely failed though.
@@gilream My initial expectations was an exit from a .308 dia. 180gr bullet, on a 125 doe. Once I was doing the necropsy. And took a moment to think about the speed and distances combined with the results of what I was seeing. It made sense. Just an unexpected result ( hadn't had this happen before ). No one expects to make a varmint grenade out of a projectile suitable for elk, moose and bear lol
The .30 carbine was mainly developed for rear echelon troops in place of the .45 due to the fact that most people using the 1911 were very inaccurate the rifle would make hits easier out to distance plus it was easier to carry than the Garand when you were a truck driver or radioman
Here's a off topic question. Do you think if an ammo brand re-released 357sig as a backyards compatible 9mm Magnum would it sell better? Like a updated version with the same projectiles as 9mm, updated powders, a solid 1500fps with a 125gr projectile from a 5" barrel, maybe 1:12\10 twist, same pressure curve as 357sig to make it backwards compatible, and marketed as 9mm Magnum.
If you do a lot of elk hunting and just want a challenge, not at all, it will definitely get the job done. Would I recommend it for a hunt of a lifetime, absolutely not!! Now if you end up pushing some trees or something along that line, it would be good to have with you for sure. good to have options. IMHO the best elk rifle on the planet is the .300 Weatherby.
Nuthin' wrong with soft point bullets. I have used them for nearly sixty years. But just like everything else, developments in technology produce myriad options over long periods of time. Doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with what's proven tried and true. The same applies to calibers and cartridges. You can probably do better, but you won't lose anything if you choose not to. Not everyone will opt to keep up with the latest and greatest, fastest and surest flavor of the month gun and cartridge configuration.
Cryo does not releave stress. It would probably increase stress actually. While it can make a major difference in steel it is also something that is often pure hype and people claim all sorts of properties that are completely unrealistic. This has been a common thing that people claim gives magical properties in knives as well. Fir any who want to understand it pick up Doctor Larrin Thomas's book on knives that clears up most of the myths. If anyone has questions or better yet good information about what barrel makers are trying to do I do check my email. I can yell you what it does in knives at least. Most people have some sort if idea that to harden steel you heat it up and then cool it rapidly. Thise who know more know that tempering is not this part that is properly called hardening but is then heating the metal to a much lower temperature usually in the 300-500 degrees range. When you heat metal enough the crystal structure changes to a non magnetic chrystal called austinite. The speed that you cool it down along with the alloy and even the temperature and hold time at the high end decides what chrystals will form in the finished product. There are many different chrystal structures that all have different properties and it is possible to have multiple structures. I would think that there would be larger gains in stainless barrels. As alloy content goes up the entire process slowes down as more time is needed for elements to shift to new structures. This includes quench time. Where cryo comes in is that the quench to room temperature may not complete chrystal conversion. The temper cycles will usually complete this process especially with simple alloys but in more complex alloys there can be unconverted austenite (auatenite is a non magnetic chrystal structure. It is common to most metals and is what steel changes to at high temperature and with some alloy additions can be stable at room temperature as is seen in many common stainless steels. It is very tough but not hard and hardened products like knives and gun barrels are usually utilizing a structure callwd martensite.). If the steel used is not meant to have austenite and is targeting a structure such as martensite any austenite can be problematic in actual use. One reason is that it is going to be a non uniform area in the object and will provide inconsistent properties and may increase strain or at least cause the area to be none uniform. Austenite is what the other structures form fro. And can be unstable and repeated strain or shock can cause it to transform to another structure. If it converts to martensite this change will be post heat treatment. Martensite is a highly strained structure. Tempering reduces some if that strain to be able to perform properly at the designed use. Cryo works by continuing the quench process for a more complete conversion. With many of the ultra high end high alloy steels being used in knives the cryo cycle is going to be needed to get full performance and to be able to use more agressive higher performance heat treatment protocols. Cryo properly used can open up whole new levels of performance. Gains can still be seen in lower alloys steels with small bumps in hardness and slightly reduced toughness. These can further be adjusted with temper to have tighter control over the final product. However cryo has ita larges effect if it is used on a continuous cooling curve during the quench. Even an hour interruption or adding a temper will stabilize the crystal structure and any affects to performance will be muted. While they are not non existent they are not that big. The standard chrom/moly barrels are a rather simple steel and the effects should be rather small although in a rifle the fact that conversion was more consistent might show bigger gains than on cutting equipment. Especially since rifles are going through temperature cycles frequently. Stainless steel will benefit morw from it. However taking the barrel off an old rifle and dipping it in liquid nitrogen is probably only going to give placebo effects. Maybe that helps. Let me know if there us any good data on how cryo is used in rifles. Do be aware that it still has a bit of a magic quality to it and there are older studies that make claims that are completely unrepeatible. If anyone is making claims to huge differences it might be interesting if those differences show up still in a blind test.
Bought a couple of R93 BLASER's back in the 90's; the 308WIN one shot one holers with tuned hand LOADS right out of the box, but the 338 LAPUA one would string out the shots out to the right in an arch as the barrel heated from each consecutive shot. Systematically check everything; barrel screws, stock screws, scope mount screws, even sent the Night Force scope back to have it checked. Could not find anything wrong to cause the stringing out of the shots.
Out of desperation and out of options, paid to have the barrel cryogenic treaded in spite of the guy giving the treatment warned me that it may not do anything, that there's no guarantee, but I was desperate.
Got the barrel back, slapped it on, slapped on the scope, and headed of to the range. Problem gone! The POI was now steady as a rock! 👍 That was something like two decades ago. It typically holds ⅝ MOA groups with Sierra 3000 HPBTMK bullets since then.
Great testament to the effectiveness of cry treatment on that barrel, Oldhogleg. Thanks.
Another thumbs up video Ron. About 15 years ago a couple of my buddies got their rifles cryogenically treated or whatever the term is, and asked why I hadn’t done some of mine. They listed all the reasons Ron talked about. I spoke with a gunsmith about it. He went into specifics that are way over my head but basically said that while it wouldn’t turn a rifle shooting 3” groups into a one holer, it could make a noticeable difference for longer range. He said if my rifle held 6” groups at 600 he typically would expect to see it tighten up to maybe 4” or 4-1/2”. I don’t do it an any of mine because I don’t hunt at 600 yards. If I shot F-class I would probably look into it. This was a good 15 years ago so they probably have made improvements on the cryo process now. But since my hunting rifles give me sub-moa groups out past 600 anyway, I don’t see the need.
I have a 6.5-300 Weatherby and the velocity is all they claim. I like heavier bullets so I was looking for something to shoot a 6.5 bullet of 140+ grains with more authority then the 6.5cm. I believe mine is the Weathermark version and I forget the twist. With 140’s it was a 1-1/2” gun @ 100. When I tried the Sciroccos I got just inside an inch. I switched to the 127 LRX and they give me nice clover groups around 1/2” with blistering MV over 3500fps. On a good day I can get 4” groups at 600.
There is great cost for this performance. First, it’s LOUD. If you go on a guided hunt make sure you warn the guide before pulling the trigger. Second is recoil. Even with the factory muzzle brake you get a fairly good pop to the shoulder. As far as barrel life… I have always found that keeping the barrel cool really stretches my barrel life. If I set my bare wrist on the barrel and it’s uncomfortable, I let the rifle cool before shooting again. I have between 400 and 500 rounds on the barrel with minimal signs of throat erosion. This is not a round for long days at the bench. Now that I have my pet load I probably won’t run a box or so per year through it, especially at $80/box with todays prices. Should last the rest of my days. I can tell you that this is a Hammer on deer. Haven’t tried it on anything else yet.
Well reasoned, Jeff. Thanks.
Go to your favorite restaurant/pan store and buy a 2 gallon aluminum stock pot. Put it on a stove with neck meat inside and fill with water enough to cover the neck pieces (usually cut through about every 3 vertebrae with a Sawzall). Heat for 1.5 hours occasionally rotating the product pieces and you will have a broth you would pay a ton for. I personally add rosmary, thyme, salt and pepper and keep it simple. After 1.5 hours, you can generally reach in with long tongs and pull the neck vertebrae out easily. If not, go a little longer. Once you have the neck bones, turn the heat down to a simmer and keep it going for about another 1/2 hour. Then you can pull the big meat pieces out easily and the cartilage will be completely liquified to collagen in the broth. You can use it just like that with the meat pieces as gravy base (makes mean biscuits and gravy) or you can strain through a sieve and remove all the pieces of meat and can it/freeze it in blocks. We put it into the cheap glad plastic containers you get in the plastic bag section of the supermarket and freeze it like that. Then when you want some venison soup base, just remove from the fridge, let it sit in the pan with a little water in it, until you can dump out the frozen broth and make venison stew/gravy etc.
Another great way is braising it with a 40 ouncer or two of Miller Highlife or similar full bodied beer, but I prefer Miller. I put it in a roaster with sage, thyme, rosemary, garlic, salt and pepper and keep basting it with the beer liquid. Once in a while during the process, you rotate the pieces up to the top and let the ones on top move to the bottom with tongs. Once the meat starts falling apart and the vertebrae come loose, remove them and you have a WHOLE pan of deliciousness. Your house will smell so good, you can hardly wait to let it cool! Takes about 6 hours. Also works terrific with shanks or the foreleg from the elbow to the knee of the front and back legs of the deer. I used to always cut them off and discard them, then tried braising like this and it's to die for. ;)
Thanks for the detailed recipe, Scott!
Cryo treated metals have been used in musical instruments, knife steels, and now rifle barrels. What goes on is the molecular structure is packed together more tightly and as it is warmed or thawed at an slow given rate the steel structure grain is somewhat organized if you will or uniform grain structure. The knife guys and knife fans that study metallurgy take a deep dive into cryo treatments and it was a big deal with 5160 and 52100 high carbon steels.
Your podcast has become my favorite
Many thanks, Chris.
The M1 carbine was first conceived as a personal defensive weapon for non-combat personnel operating in forward areas where contact with the enemy was likely. Such a truck drivers and engineers and combat personnel other than infantry or rifleman, like artillery crews. The 1911 pistol or the M1 Sub machine gun (Thompson) were the options at the time. The M1 SMG was heavy , burned ammo quickly and many soldiers had a hard time controlling the full auto fire. The 1911 pistol proved hard to score hits with by personnel in support roles. Once the M1 carbine was fielded many more roles were found for it. Like sentries, guards and MRS. The Army Air Corps and Navy considered it for Air crews, but mostly opted to stay with the 1911 as it could already be on the gear when they bailed out of their aircraft.
300Below in Dectaur Illinois are the founding fathers of cryo treatment. I couldn't have asked for a better experience and their customer service is second to none.
Former Army Sapper here. The 30 gave cooks, and dental hygienists something to defend themselves with...it was better than a 1911, but lighter and handy-er than a 06 battle rifle.
And with the right load, a little deer gun that has almost no recoil.
when I was a kid and started going hunting with my dad, he always said "we don't waste the meat!" and since I was oh about 8yrs old I've been starving the other animals on this planet. I and my wife take as much of the meat as we can possible get off the bone then we crack the bones, boil them and we have broth for our dog and cat in the winter time plus we can strain it for recipes for us.
David, great idea using the bones/broth for dog food.
Yup..if you hunt you shouldn't waste and if you waste, you shouldn't hunt.
@@montaego Although I do find it enlightening that some of the same people most incensed about hunters "wasting" game will leave considerable food on their plates, toss moldy fruits and vegetables from their fridges, etc.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast very good point
I am super excited for this! I can't say say there are many things I can say I haven't seen - when it comes to guns - and this REALLY caught me by surprise!
Ron Spomer I think when you said "Glorified pistol cartridge" in reference to the .30 carbine, you may have just summed it up perfectly in your own way. Think of it as the 'Pistol Caliber Carbine' of it's era. Perhaps similar to a Winchester 73 carbine in... 32-20? A moderately peppy round for close range in a light and handy carbine. Better than a pistol at 80 yards but no battle rifle. Hope that helps. Enjoying your work Sir.
Sure does help put it in perspective. Thanks Mike.
The M1 Carbine and .30 Carbine round were developed as a substitute for the 1911 pistol and the .45 ACP.. The Army knew they wouldn't be able to have enough 1911s manufactured for WWII and they wanted non-combat personnel like cooks and drivers and clerks to have a firearm. It was never intended to be issued to frontline troops. At 100 yards the standard 115 gr ball round has about the same energy and velocity as a .357 Magnum round.
Another great pod Ron!
Thanks Edward.
The neck roast is the part I look forward eating the most! Roast it and stew for a few hours bone in. Nothing beats that for me....
Thanks for the encouragement!
neck meat . great stuff ! I’m from the UK and Lamb stew was/is mostly made from neck meat cooked on the bone in the stew itself. “Best end of neck” my mother used to ask for.
😁 I can't wait to see what you have found on the subject and also whom your sources of information are from? This has been a Hot Topic for a while among shooters (and even barrel makers) and I appreciate you Tackling this Issue! I hope I had some influence into "baiting you into" trying to address this subject? 🤭 Even barrel makers have some disagreements as to this! Some (like Kreiger) use it in various stages of the barrel making process (while others) like Shilen don't (and even some, only use this process on the steel blank before making the barrel)! Of course, it depends upon your barrel making process (ex. button vs cut), materials the barrel is made from and carbon content (ex. stainless steal vs. chrome molly), barrel shape (ex. standard barrel vs. fluted or octogonal), etc...! Factors to consider from this barrel hardening/stress relief process include - barrel life, barrel accuracy (from the change in barrel vibratory motion), and resultant bullet velocity! Are you going to give us a "Tutorial" in Metallurgy Ron? I can't wait! 🕵️♂️
Cryogenic barrels I all about stress relieving to my knowledge and you're 100% correct a barrel that's been properly stress relieved with hold accuracy at much higher temperatures. Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
Thanks Daniel.
30 Carbine was designed to take the place of handguns for guys that could not shoot them well, the light hand low recoil could be shot well at the closer distances. the gun was very handy in tight spots like fox holes and buildings
Makes sense, Arnie. Thanks for the info.
Cryogenics have been used fairly extensively in the racing world as well. Thanks for reminding me of it, I have a rifle I've been contemplating a new barrel for, I just may have er deep frozen.
omg I could not have said it better re: 308. 110% agreed. Most people forget the military has other issues that performance to consider when adopting a cartridge - eg logistics, NATO, training, squad tactics, etc.
The 556 suffers from this, bad.
My dad was a forward air controller in Nam. He carried a M1 carbine in the L19 . It was more compact than the M16 was.
For the guy asking about the use of soft point bullets, especially for hunting, a modern version I've had great success with is Nosler's Partition. The Partition addresses the issues you mentioned about losing too much mass after expansion, and they work very well for me and penetrate very well. I use the 160 grn Partition in my 7mm Mag.
Modern? it was invented in the 50s
@@WayStedYou well, modern compared to the 100 year old jacketed soft points he was referring to. I've been loading Partitions for 30 years, so maybe not so modern, but no less effective.
Great bullet from 1948, Todd, but I'm not quite sure we can call it a soft point. It certainly has a soft lead, exposed nose, but it's internal partition wall of jacket material puts it in the controlled expansion class to my way of thinking. Guess it's kind of a combo soft point, solid shank.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware the Partition was that old, but Nosler had a great idea even back then. I've been reloading using 140 grn Ballistic Tips for about 20 years and 160 grn Partitions for about 30. I've had great success with both in my favorite hunting rifle - a Remington 700 in 7mm Magnum. I've yet to recover a Partition bullet from an animal as they have always passed through, and have always been effective with one shot.
I stumbled on your podcast about a month ago and you're now my favorite channel. Back in the 1980s and 1990s I used to subscribe to a few hunting magazines, namely American Hunter and Deer and Deer Hunting, and I would pick up a few others from time to time. I remember your name from some of the stories I read in those old magazines years ago. It's good to know you're still out there hunting and loving life. I'd love to have had 10% of the hunting opportunities you've had over the years. I've always wanted to hunt the western states, and especially mule deer and pronghorn. Maybe someday as retirement is coming soon. Consider yourself a lucky man.
🤔 If you like the Nosler Partition, you'll love the performance of the Swift A-Frame - because it is the bonded version of the Nosler Partition and is even tougher (it retains weight its weight better and will give you a perfect mushroom every time if you are shooting at reasonable hunting distances with that 7mm - i.e. within 500 yards)! 👍
LMAO!!! Hey Ron, can you compare a smart car to a Ferrari? Just poking some fun but that comparison surprised me. Kudos for you for not even skipping a beat. I would have been left a little speechless for a minute.
I enjoyed these podcasts. Thanks
What about the guy who knows what the 308 is and chooses it for it's versatility, practicality, availability, and lower price than other medium rifle rounds? I've been geeking out on buying a "dream gun" with a carbon barrel, and I was really sweating the cambering, but I kept coming back to the 308 because the price and availability of ammo are so great. It has enough power to take any game in North America with brown bear being somewhat risky, and moose needing a closer shot. Here in the mountains of NC the 308 is plenty of power for any game at any reasonable range. I can get cheap soft point ammo and take deer or hogs, or buy some premium ammo and go get an elk if I ever get to do that. The last thing that really sold me on the 308 is the best barrel life for anything in it's power class.
I know it's not the flattest shooting, or the most powerful, but it really is enough for almost any hunter in the US. It might not be the best precision rifle round, but the military still trains their snipers on the 308. It excels at being "good enough"
Point made and point taken, Ben! I can't argue with any of your reasoning. It is spot on. As I said in one of my videos, the 308 Winchester is a Goldilocks cartridge.
I utilize neck meat for a roast. Excellent in a crock pot for 6-8 hours depending how big it is. Also I've rolled& tied a neck roast with seasonings & garlic wrapped in bacon on the grill!
Venison neck roast in a crock pot is one of our family favorites. Start it in the morning on Low and by 5pm you have some of the most tender venison youve ever had. I use a 1/4 cup of dark beer and a liberal amount of seasonings plus the onions, mushrooms and celery.
No bone, I fillet the meat off the bone, but I know some people who do the bone-in version. Either way its well worth the few minutes of cleaning. As Ron says its also great for sausage/jerky.
My Rock River Arms NM rifle has a cryo barrel, can't argue with the results of that thing, it's a lasee
I like to make stew with the neck meat, breaks down the connective tissues and creates a nice thick stew perfect for cold winter days.
Just go hunting in far N. AK I saw - 83 f treat your whole rife & your toes too .
The .30 Carbine was developed because they needed a compact firearm that they could carry more ammo for than the Garand, but that gave superior range to the .45 ACP from the Thompson. It was also made in several special configurations adapted for use during parachuting by paratroopers with a folding stock and tankers liked it as well, because it was handy and they could pop out of the tank and take some shots quick at infantry flanking the tanks. I own one that was used during WWII that my Grandfather brought home. I think the A2 version also, which was select fire, was still hugely popular even into the Vietnam era for people like Corpsman who were carrying a lot of medical supplies and didn't want a heavy rifle, but needed more than a handgun. My dad was such a Corpsman and a lot of his fellows opted for an A2 with the rear part of the stock sawed off. This made a very handy weapon to fire from the hip. The carbine is so light also, compared to the 10+ pound Garand that many still prefer it in some ways. Finally, they also wanted a firearm with a box magazine that would allow them to shoot more than the garand could hold. The 20 round mags were very popular and were preferred to the 10 rounders. If you want an interesting watch, find a copy of the movie, "Carbine Williams" who was played by James Stewart. I got a copy for my Dad and watched it with him before he died. Pretty poor screenplay by todays standards, but very interesting and the actual individual and his family weighed in on it as I understand. It is an anemic .30 Cal, but has it's place out to 100 yards. I've killed a lot of woodchucks with mine and it was my dad's favorite deer hunting rifle for pushing corn fields, because of it's quick follow-up shots and with soft points, it's about like a 300 blackout with tiny bullets. ;)
I consider it like a longer 357 mag, and can out perform it
I have had several of my barrels Cryo and it worked in the barrels I had done and seemed to make the barrel twist as much when very hot. Also on the super magnum barrels will last a little longer I have found on the 28 Nosler I had before I gave it to my son
The .277 x 51 has really piqued my interest now that it is officially the new cartridge of the military. It's gonna be a fun adventure. Lotsa pressure is going to force new alloys and case development. Steel may be the wave of that cartridge's future. Yeah, soft point bullets, I've loaded a few thousand .223 soft point 55gr bullets. At 200 yds, they punch right through 1/4" diamond plate steel, at 300 they, blister the back and occasionally punch through. These are not loaded to max specs., they're just very accurate in my rifles. Add a little weight, 62gr bullets, they punch through at 300yds consistently. I'd not want to be standing in the bullet path even at 450yds as they smack a 10" x 3/4" mild steel plate quite well. I consider them a good varmint round, both two and four legged.
30 carbine was made to make a much more lethal replacement for having a pistol.
It's basically like firing a 357 magnum out of a levergun in terms of power.
Thanks for the info, WayStedYou.
I have been reading about cryo. Think of it as a heat (thermal) treatment. Cryo also will change the chemical /physical structure of the carbon that does harden the steel.
30 carbine breig part of the militaries small rifle program, looking at the time to be effective at 300 yards from a shorter and lighter rifle than the M1.
Being more effective ballistically than 45 acp and some have said was supposed to replace the 1911 side arm for support troops which it did not do. Great little cartridge for its intended purpose, each cartridge having a niche almost and personal sentimental values to some.
Hey Ron, I‘d love to hear you expand on the term "harvesting an animal". I, too, take issue with it as it somewhat downplays (to me at least) the significance of what we’re doing: killing. Messing up the harvest of a potato is not a big deal but mess up the shot on an animal and you just caused a sentient, emotional, social being gruesome suffering. Hunting an animal is decidedly not like harvesting produce and we‘d do well to remember that.
Plants have feelings too. Some. Seriously.
Bork, "harvesting" came into vogue roughly in the 1980s as hunters tried to sugar-coat what we do to placate the increasingly sensitive urban/suburban citizen. There is some validity to it, too, since we are collecting, gathering, "putting up for winter," the fall "harvest" of venison, same as we do potatoes, onions, squash, etc. Alas, Disney, Hollywood, and urban pop culture has done such a good gob of demonizing killing and butchering animals that addressing it straight up became offensive. Quite similar to death and dying. We now "step over a rainbow," pass, pass on, pass away, go to our everlasting reward -- anything but die. Euphemisms. By saying we "harvest" game, we do nudge people into seeing hunting as a variant of the autumnal garden harvest, but quickly enough they see through this as an attempt to detract from the reality of killing, which is distasteful. I'm not sure this is effective or useful, but even I inwardly wince when I say I "killed a deer." Much as I cringe at the evasive use of "harvest," so do I dislike hearing goose hunters, for instance, shout "kill 'em!" before rising from the blind and blasting away, then whooping and high fiving. Looks crass, insensitive. So, two extremes. How should we handle it? I'm not sure, but surely we ought to kill with respect and some decorum. Yes, it's natural to celebrate and/or release the tension with shouts of joy, back thumping, etc., but at the same time there should be a bit of reverence and appreciation shown to the quarry, to God or Nature for the bounty, etc. This is the kind of behavior non-hunters can respect. So is appreciation for and use of the meat, hides, etc. The whole idea is to somehow demonstrate through words and actions the whole of what hunting means and is -- a natural, useful, necessary, good utilization of Nature's bounty. It's the sustainable, all-organic, endlessly renewable use of non-polluting, recycled resources just as Nature/God designed. Hunters are an essential part of the cycle of life. Creating this myth that killing and meat eating are affronts against Nature is a disservice to the Her that will come back -- is coming back -- to haunt us. The more we refuse to use Nature's abundance, the more we destroy Her, replace her with manmade, artificial plants and, now, meat. We've already rejected Natures renewable plant and animal coverings (fur, leather, wool, etc.) in favor of petrochemical polyesters and plastics of various kinds. It's a big topic worthy of research, contemplation, and discussion. So, my compromise is to say "I shot a deer" or pheasant etc. Or simply I got my deer or filled my elk tag, etc. From there the discussion can progress to how hard it was getting the meat out or when the family will cut and wrap or make sausage, etc. Thanks for asking, Bork.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast great comment, Ron. And despite our best efforts, I don't think there is anything warmer than wool, especially if it gets damp. I wear a lot of wool under my camo and in my boots. Enjoyed your podcast.
@@wrenchoperator6435 Yes, wool, especially merino, has come back strong in recent years and is a good example of natural, renewable source. There are issues with overgrazing and disease transmission from domestic to wild sheep, but wool is a fine option.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast You could really do an entire show on this. When it comes to hunting, the killing is the part I hate the most. We always say a prayer of thanks after each harvest (sorry I know you dont like that, but that's the term we use and see it fitting as we are there to harvest meat, horns are just a bonus) and pay respect to the animal for the ultimate sacrifice given to us. I get so beyond irritated when I hear people say "smoked him" its is just plain ignorant and barbaric. Who Tee Who could use some learning in that department. To each their own, but I do think harvest is a fitting word to use that is more delicate and respectful to others and spreads a more humane outlook to other non-hunters in a time when hunting could use all of that it can get.
I'm not partial to any brand of rifle or caliber but I am to the 308 Winchester "family" of calibers as well at the 7X57 Mauser Family. I own almost every caliber from those brass cases and handload for all of them. I would love to take all of them out of their stocks and have them cryogenically frozen which is something on my mind for a couple years now.
I thought forsure be was gonna say .308 is one he doesn't like we all know it's not his favorite lol I like the..308 alot mostly for the ammo avaliable and the cost and the performance
A lot of older guys love the 30 carbine for deer in Virginia
It works well and is in rather handy and flexible rifles.
Here is the techy version; yes I am a licensed professional mechanical engineer.
When steel is formed, it is heated from a ferrite crystal structure until it turns to a crystal structure called Austenite, then it is cooled to form the harder, stronger structure called Martensite. But there is always retained austenite (in some alloys up to 17%) in the steel. Cryoquenching converts the retained austenite to the harder, stronger martensite crystal structure.
Austenite is weaker than martensite, and has a different physical volume (about 14% larger), and as such the retained austenite also creates internal stresses in the material; tiny pressure centers attempting to expand the metal and induce internal cracking along grain dislocations, as well as lending to slight changes in the barrel dimensions.
Once converted to marteniste through cryoquenching, the homogeneous steel structure is somewhat normalized at higher temperatures to reduce the brittleness of the steel.
A secondary advantage of cryoquenching is that the dispersion of alloying metals is improved, as well as the formation of chromium carbides, and the precipitation of micro eta-carbides which fill voids in the micro-structure dislocations in the steel, all of which improve the strength and durability of the material.
Awesome austenite explanation, Paul. Thanks.
Benelli Lupo has cryo barrel and it shoots everything sub MOA
nothing better than a neck roast ..slow cooked with carrots and potatoes drippings made into a good gravy....those bones aren't a problem at all if you ask me....
I remember seeing Benelli was doing cryogenically frozen barrels over a decade ago in a large scale
At the time they were saying it approved both accuracy and barrel life quite a bit
This is a great format. Thanks!
Appreciate that!
Cryogenic treatment of metals is a German invention, specifically for the 440C stainless steel. They did not use it for straight carbon steel. The M1 Carbine was mostly a substitute for a pistol, and Jeeps kept the majority of them when transporting officers to and from the front. Just looking at the cartridge shows its more pistol than rifle.
Neck meat is a case by case scenario, I'd almost always rather take the shanks.
Rutted buck neck is a waste of time for me.
My dad fought in Korea in 1950. He hated the 30 carbine. He said it only p#$$ed off the enemy when you shot them with it. : )
He might be mistaken, the military ball round has more as a 357mag
I have a rock river arms lar 8 which is a ar 10. The barrel is cryogenically treated. Bought it about 6 years ago and only shot it a few times with iron sights,few weeks ago I finally mounted a meopta scope on it and took it in the back yard just to get it on paper and a gun that I was not familiar with, I had the holes touching at about 50 yards, that was with bulk, jacketed bullets fiocchi. I'm curious about its accuracy at about 200 yards. That was about 6 weeks ago and I have large fields bordering my property and haven't shot it since, there was a time, when I couldn't wait.
30 carbine was developed to replace the 1911 in situations where troops weren't able to use 1911 accurately. Tankers. Air crew
Artillery troops etc..
I think that you know 2 folks that have taken critters with 6.5-300Wby.
Joseph Von Benedict took a black bear with Adam Weatherby using the 6.5-300Wby the year before it was intro'd.
Eh... That might have been the 6.5 RPM on second thought 🤔
Cryo heat treat is only a thing with stainless really. Chromium content which that makes it be stainless, requires the cryo part for the heat treat to be useful.
I think that these use the cryo term is a sales thing mostly.
Simply barrels have to be heat treated. If they re stainless barrels, they have to be cryo frozen during that h.t. process.
It's kind of a given to anyone knowing metallurgy...
Hi Ron. Great good natured video. I like the neck meat. Can be a bit "strong" flavored for some people's taste, if from a rutting buck or bull. I usually cube it for chili or ranch beans. Also good in fajitas. I'm not big on ground beef, meatloaf and spaghetti sauce mainly, but which fat do you use when grinding yours? I tried both pork fat and beef tallow.
Keep well.
Cheers Jeff
For many decades I added no fat to my ground venison, especially deer fat. Had to treat the burger meat like steak and not overcook. And, yes, it was a bit harder to keep the patties from crumbling. But doable. In recent years we've begun adding a small quantity of beef tallow. Elk or moose would be better! Pork fat is wonderful if you know its trichinosis free. With wild pork I always wonder. And I don't want to overcook my venison to treat for potential trich in the pork fat, so... usually reserve that for sausage.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Ron, thank you for the reply. I never thought of tric. Guess I should stop living like a caveman. All the best you.
Cheers, Jeff
We use beef fat for burger and pork fat/meat for sausage and various other processed meats. When making sausage for instance, we use a ground pork butt to mix with the wild game to the proper ratio, which is usually 70/30. We like ours a leaner and usually do 80 wild/20 pork. When you grind the pork, do not trim it!! just remove the bone if it is still in it and cut into grindable sized chunks and course grind. Mix with the wild game and grind again with the spices. Perfection!! We really enjoy the seasonings from Hi Mountain, especially the Mountain Man blend.
@@sakostwwy1903 that sounds like, good eating.
It makes a good neck rost from the neck of the deer Im tell you what its good eating try it if you never did
Roast a neck for 5-6 hours, mmm so good.
I know plenty older folks that love the neck meat for soup
Hey Ron nice job as always 💪🏻 Can you tell us more about 8x68 S cartrige,and have you had the chance to shoot it? Thanks and shoot straight 🌿🌿
I really like 308 Win and think it's a great all-around cartridge. A great long range cartridge? Absolutely not. Nor a great short range. Nor a great mid range. But it'll do short and midrange often acceptably and kill stuff at those ranges and have great barrel life without heavy recoil.
When I got started, I liked 308 Win for everything. Now, I'm more into 223 Rem and 300 WSM. 223 Rem is my mid range plinker and 300 WSM is my long range and hunting cartridge.
Harvest is a nicer word
Neck meat is wonderful. I remove what I can with the knife, and grind for burger. I then cut the neck into sections that will fit in my largest pot. Slow simmer that for several hours for a wonderful soup base, broth, or pick the meat off for a bbq sandwich and then save the broth. Delicious stuff.
One caveat, Mr. Slover: The prions that cause CWD in deer are concentrated in the brain, spinal column, and some lymph nodes high in the neck. I'm not sure eating such parts is a good idea. CWD hasn't been found to infect humans, but one might not want to take unnecessary chances.
30 Carbine was intended to be more capable than a handgun for soldiers that were too loaded down special equipment. Such as engineers, radio operators etc, who couldn't carry a Garand.
Rather than grind try Dutch oven for your neck and shoulder roasts. Low and slow with some carrots garlic and onions. Wine for liquid. Thank me later.
Find a simple recipe. Lots of them out there. Enjoy.
Ron, you didn't mention the delta L problem that plagues the 243 WSSM
I didn't know the 243 WSSM was plagued by too short chambers and/or too long cases. If it is, it's in good company with more than two dozen other cartridges including 25-06, 243 Win., 308 Win. , 30-06, 270 Win. etc. And many of these have a larger av. difference in length than the 243 WSSM, so I doubt Delta L contributed to the cartridge's early retirement.
Ok Ron..i got a question for you..how many "safe queens" do you have??? i just wondered..i;ve got a few :safe queens" but i got more working rifles than those..and if you don't mind if not to hard could you list them or some of them and cal. maker and mod.
No safe queens here. I exercise all my horses.
Here's one not many amercans have tried
The final part of the deers alimentary tract makes what we called a puff adder
Its short and fatty and you get the liver and a chopped onion and make a sausage that you grill on the coals. We call it braai
You barbecue... Which is an American Indian term i believe.
Anyway the fat makes it moist
Ps
This is not a joke. Its utterly delicious
Witnessed a soft point failure with a Core-Lokt 180gr 300 Win mag and an unexpected 35-40 yard shot on a mature doe.
Both shoulders were a lost cause, and she hit the deck like earth increased the gravity to twelve on her.
No exit though. Bullet integrity completely failed though.
180 grain cup and core bullet running about 3000 fps at 30 yards? I think maybe the bullet behaved exactly as anyone would expect it too!
@@gilream My initial expectations was an exit from a .308 dia. 180gr bullet, on a 125 doe. Once I was doing the necropsy. And took a moment to think about the speed and distances combined with the results of what I was seeing. It made sense. Just an unexpected result ( hadn't had this happen before ). No one expects to make a varmint grenade out of a projectile suitable for elk, moose and bear lol
The .30 carbine was mainly developed for rear echelon troops in place of the .45 due to the fact that most people using the 1911 were very inaccurate the rifle would make hits easier out to distance plus it was easier to carry than the Garand when you were a truck driver or radioman
and it had 2.5/3x the energy of a .45 ACP
Makes sense, Jordan. Thanks.
I accidentally bought a box of .243 wssm 2 years ago and still can't give it away
Here's a off topic question.
Do you think if an ammo brand re-released 357sig as a backyards compatible 9mm Magnum would it sell better?
Like a updated version with the same projectiles as 9mm, updated powders, a solid 1500fps with a 125gr projectile from a 5" barrel, maybe 1:12\10 twist, same pressure curve as 357sig to make it backwards compatible, and marketed as 9mm Magnum.
Not really, there's already a cartridge in the same name, but it's been dead for many years.
@@suemeade2471 it's time for a revival..
I've purchased quite a bit of cryo treated audio components over the years, but a rifle barrel? 🤨🤨
Would I be an idiot bringing a Marlin .45-70 to Montana for elk.
If you do a lot of elk hunting and just want a challenge, not at all, it will definitely get the job done. Would I recommend it for a hunt of a lifetime, absolutely not!! Now if you end up pushing some trees or something along that line, it would be good to have with you for sure. good to have options. IMHO the best elk rifle on the planet is the .300 Weatherby.
Not at all if you're willing to get within 100 yards or so.
Nuthin' wrong with soft point bullets. I have used them for nearly sixty years. But just like everything else, developments in technology produce myriad options over long periods of time. Doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with what's proven tried and true.
The same applies to calibers and cartridges. You can probably do better, but you won't lose anything if you choose not to. Not everyone will opt to keep up with the latest and greatest, fastest and surest flavor of the month gun and cartridge configuration.
We call it harvest because the game warden does in there paperwork
Ahhh,he can spell it,can't say it hahaha
30 carbine was made to reduce the load of an infantry soldier although Korea proved it inefficient as a cartridge
Cryo does not releave stress. It would probably increase stress actually. While it can make a major difference in steel it is also something that is often pure hype and people claim all sorts of properties that are completely unrealistic. This has been a common thing that people claim gives magical properties in knives as well. Fir any who want to understand it pick up Doctor Larrin Thomas's book on knives that clears up most of the myths. If anyone has questions or better yet good information about what barrel makers are trying to do I do check my email.
I can yell you what it does in knives at least. Most people have some sort if idea that to harden steel you heat it up and then cool it rapidly. Thise who know more know that tempering is not this part that is properly called hardening but is then heating the metal to a much lower temperature usually in the 300-500 degrees range. When you heat metal enough the crystal structure changes to a non magnetic chrystal called austinite. The speed that you cool it down along with the alloy and even the temperature and hold time at the high end decides what chrystals will form in the finished product. There are many different chrystal structures that all have different properties and it is possible to have multiple structures. I would think that there would be larger gains in stainless barrels. As alloy content goes up the entire process slowes down as more time is needed for elements to shift to new structures. This includes quench time. Where cryo comes in is that the quench to room temperature may not complete chrystal conversion. The temper cycles will usually complete this process especially with simple alloys but in more complex alloys there can be unconverted austenite (auatenite is a non magnetic chrystal structure. It is common to most metals and is what steel changes to at high temperature and with some alloy additions can be stable at room temperature as is seen in many common stainless steels. It is very tough but not hard and hardened products like knives and gun barrels are usually utilizing a structure callwd martensite.). If the steel used is not meant to have austenite and is targeting a structure such as martensite any austenite can be problematic in actual use. One reason is that it is going to be a non uniform area in the object and will provide inconsistent properties and may increase strain or at least cause the area to be none uniform. Austenite is what the other structures form fro. And can be unstable and repeated strain or shock can cause it to transform to another structure. If it converts to martensite this change will be post heat treatment. Martensite is a highly strained structure. Tempering reduces some if that strain to be able to perform properly at the designed use. Cryo works by continuing the quench process for a more complete conversion. With many of the ultra high end high alloy steels being used in knives the cryo cycle is going to be needed to get full performance and to be able to use more agressive higher performance heat treatment protocols. Cryo properly used can open up whole new levels of performance. Gains can still be seen in lower alloys steels with small bumps in hardness and slightly reduced toughness. These can further be adjusted with temper to have tighter control over the final product. However cryo has ita larges effect if it is used on a continuous cooling curve during the quench. Even an hour interruption or adding a temper will stabilize the crystal structure and any affects to performance will be muted. While they are not non existent they are not that big. The standard chrom/moly barrels are a rather simple steel and the effects should be rather small although in a rifle the fact that conversion was more consistent might show bigger gains than on cutting equipment. Especially since rifles are going through temperature cycles frequently. Stainless steel will benefit morw from it. However taking the barrel off an old rifle and dipping it in liquid nitrogen is probably only going to give placebo effects.
Maybe that helps. Let me know if there us any good data on how cryo is used in rifles. Do be aware that it still has a bit of a magic quality to it and there are older studies that make claims that are completely unrepeatible. If anyone is making claims to huge differences it might be interesting if those differences show up still in a blind test.
Cryo-Genically...Not Cryo-Genetically...