The Superhero Dilemma: Corruption of American Myths
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2024
- Superheroes are so much more than powerful beings in colorful costumes, they are modern American myths. While DC and Marvel comics’ biggest characters used to be looked at as idyllic figures, superheroes aren’t considered as squeaky clean as they once were. The classic Spider-Man line "with great power comes great responsibility" doesn't hit the same way after books like Watchmen and Civil War have already shown audiences that heroes aren’t always perfect. There’s nothing wrong with subversive storytelling, but the more characters like Batman and Captain America slowly get dirtied up, the harder it becomes to distinguish their inspirational qualities from more deranged “superheroes” like Mark Millar’s Kick-Ass or the Punisher. With economic destruction and a pandemic causing ongoing distress in people’s lives, superheroes need to be re-examined in order to became the social titans they once were.
0:00 Introduction-"With great power, comes great responsibility."
2:47 That Dark Knight (Returns) and his One Man War on Crime
7:00 Infinite Crisis' Corruption of Batman
9:46 Punisher- Don't Call me a Superhero
15:16 Mark Millar: Superhero Corrupter in Chief
17:13 Canonization of Kick-Ass
20:09 Iron Man and Mister Fantastic: War Criminals
21:56 The Reign of Mark Millar
25:52 Conclusion- Defund the Green Lantern Corps and Make Superheroes Relevant Again
Follow me on Twitter: / ricknazden
Help me make more videos (please!): / ricknazden
Tracks:
Black Panther- Nicolas Barbedienne
Orphans of Krypton- Trent Raznor and Brent ATticus
Carrie Kelly… Robin- Christopher Drake
A Good Life… Good Enough- Christopher Drake
Justice (Batman’s Theme)- Matthew Harwood
The Punisher: Main Theme - cover by BeyondTheGuitar
The Punisher: Frank’s Choice - cover by BeyondTheGuitar
kudasai - technicolor
I Miss You Both- Ilan Eshkeri, John Murphy
Rather Unfortunate Conclusion- Henry Jackman
Meditate- Earthgang
Fake Names- Freddie Gibbs/Madlib
Baby Baby - Lord Finesse - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Yes, I know there’s a WHOOOOOOOOLE lot missing from this conversation- I really wanted to talk about HBO’s “Watchmen” because I think it does the best job of dirtying up heroes while still making people look inspirational and worth rooting for- but the video was already too long as it was.
Let me know if you liked the video and your thoughts on the value of superheroes in the face of insurmountable global chaos below!
(If you actually watched this whole video, even broken up over multiple times, I salute and thank you.)
I'm surprised you didn't delve further into Superman's treatment over the years. You want to talk about a once inspiring character who's been deconstructed, abused,corrupted, and now struggling to find his place today's culture, look no further.
@@thomass5606 Superman is the granddaddy of all heroes, and despite all the dirtying up, I still think he's the most inspirational one of the bunch regardless of how often people try to throw mud on his shiny symbol.
Check this bad boy out for a bit more of why I think Superman is especially relevant right now:
czcams.com/video/FyA-UNDsUwg/video.html
@@RickNazden Oh I absolutely think he's as relevant as ever. I just wish more people shared our sentiment. I think if they ever get a universally beloved film off the ground, more people would get it. I've grown quite tired of WB/DC glorifying villains and villainizing heroes, and Superman was their number one target for a while. It's turned around a little recently, but I really don't want them to fall in the Injustice rabbit hole again. It was a fun little idea for a bit, but enough is enough. Great video by the way. :)
The original Watchmen did just a fine enough job of dirtying superheroes without making it literally all about racial tension within the first 20 minutes.
hell, my grandma believes that a certain type of criminals, such as murderers and rapists, should be put down in the most painful way possible. But even she disapproved cops using the punisher's symbol, and she likes Frank!
Lol your grandma sounds like quite the sweet lady...
@@RickNazden she actually is, she just really hates criminals
@@darkroninmarvel 👍👍
Your grandma sounds like my kinda person!
One thing I feel needs to be pointed out, even Spider-Man himself has stated that people keep misquoting his Uncle.
The saying is, “With great power THERE MUST come great responsibility.”
Excluding the “THERE MUST,” part of the saying makes it seem like Uncle Ben is saying that power makes someone innately responsible, whereas what he really is saying is that if someone has power and doesn’t act responsibly, then they would destroy themselves and the world around them.
You really nailed it on the head with Mark Millar, my issue with the dude is that he's not self-aware enough with his edgelord antics. Yeah sure Garth Ennis is an edgelord as well but he's tongue-in-cheek about it [when he has a good editor]. Good examples being his Punisher run in "Welcome Back, Frank" with Steve Dillion (R.I.P) and Preacher (obviously). Hell Ennis himself agrees with Conway about Punisher not being a superhero.
Now back to Millar don't get me wrong, he has good ideas (Old Man Logan) but they're expanded upon better by other writers (Jeff Lemire's run on the character and hell even the film adaptation).
Mark miller did made huck a Superman inspired hero and it’s really really genuine it’s the title character doing nice things and what Superman would do. antidote to the antihero," which he prescribed after seeing Superman take a life. Stating also man of steel traumatize him The man who made, marvel cilver war, old man Logan, kings man, wanted, nemesis, and a whole bunch of edgy lord ness (Then again I love old man Logan). Wrote something really good because he felt traumatized after watching a beloved character do something I feel like he would write him do that.
I kinda disagree with some of this video, but you make some interesting points
I kinda disagree with this comment, but you make some interesting points!
What do you disagree with?
@leyen I mostly disagree with the idea that media, where superheroes are presented as evil/morally contemptible, is "corrupting". The vast majority of superhero media (DC and Marvel comics, movies, games, shows, etc) present superheroes as generally good and upstanding people (barring things like Injustice or stories about anti-heroes/villains like Punisher, Suicide Squad, Joker, etc) and I think it's a little disingenuous to say that Mark Milar has corrupted the landscape of superhero media when he gave us stories like Logan or Superman: Red Son. Also, the list of various movie adaptations of Milar's work is a bit misleading, Wanted and Kingsman aren't even superhero movies and Civil War was changed a lot to make it fit into the MCU (which was a good move imo, I think it significantly improved on the comic-book storyline though I admit I'm not a fan of the Civil War comic) and Logan is heralded as one of the best superhero movies of all time and imo evokes a more Dark Knight Returns feel than a Kick-Ass feel if you know what I'm saying. I completely agree with his points about the Punisher, Frank Castle is not a hero, nor should he be idolized by law enforcement or the armed forces. I think the point about the whole Brother Eye thing is not great either, within the context of when infinite Crisis was published, Batman was extremely distrustful of his former friends and allies and was at a low point emotionally, it made sense for the character to do this whether you personally agree with this or not, and his actions are shown to be wrong throughout the story and in pretty much every other story where Brother Eye shows up. I think saying that Mr. Fantastic and Iron Man shouldn't be portrayed as heroes in Empyre is kinda silly, Reed and Tony are not real people who should be chastised for committing war crimes, whet Mark Millar did in Civil War was damaging to both their characters I agree, but to say that because a lot of the casual audience didn't read the books where Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic redeemed themselves and felt sorry for their actions, they shouldn't be presented as heroes is dumb. As for Green Lantern, I think it's also a bit disingenuous to compare the problems of modern American policing to the problems of an intergalactic police force that has to our knowledge, not had a history of oppressing specific groups of people (barring Sinestro who used his ring to conquer his planet), feeding some sort of prison industrial complex, or just working for a state/country/government at all, and tbh the Green Lanterns haven't done much actual intergalactic policing since Geoff Johns's run.
@@dilsherdhaliwal3666 The Green Lantern point is strange where people make a direct comparison to cops, like people due know it mostly U.S cops that are corrupted and other countries cops take years of education to become rather then in U.S.
Also GL, just started doing police work Geoff Johns made GL into space epic.
@@jiabryant533
This is a jumble of misinformed nonsense... like "mostly U.S cops that are corrupted"
Okay blood, like Egypt or China don't have corruption
"Corps" is pronounced as "core" not as "corpse." The P and the S are silent.
the most important comment here honestly. Thanks for watching to that point!
People like the Punisher for the same reasons they like superheroes. He does the work that the real world counterparts, such as cops and politicians, wouldn’t. Defeat evil and villains, instead installing a revolving door on prisons.
I think books like Watchmen and The Boys shows that just because someone with a colorful costume, cool powers, doesn't mean he or she here to protect you. Its like saying someone who looks nice or is nice, got the control of a certain country, doesnt mean he or she will use that power to help the country. Books like those shows superheores are not angels sent from heaven. They are human beings who got powers in different ways and some had to earn it. They do good, because they CHOSE to do good. Otherwise in any time, they can take over you and make you their servant. They don't blindly see good in everyone. They don't blindly do good. I'm not a huge fan of superheroes. But they are definitely some of most interesting fictional characters.
This is why I love The Boys comic. It shows that a majority of heroes in real life won't be heroes, and are huge pieces of sh*t.
But the boys is more cynical than realistic. It’s an over exaggerated look on superheroes
@@shiori00 the boys is pretty pessimistic and cynical than realistic. The boys is not a realistic depiction of superheroes. The most realistic depiction of superheroes would be more like jupiters legacy, supercrooks, x men and invincible
@@jonjonboi3701 lol X-Men and invincible? Yeah those aren't even close depictions to how they'd be like, maybe super crooks and I don't even know what Jupiter's Legacy is. Just because it's cynical doesn't mean it's realistic which The Boys is because we know a majority of celebrities in real life would abuse their power if you take a look at all the freakouts in public and such.
I think it’s really problematic that you use Frank Miller’s Batman as a good version of the character, when Miller was clearly the one that started the push for the more unheroic, violent, fascistic take on the character.
If you want a Batman who is a legitimate role model, check out the works of Dennis O’Neil and other Bronze Age writers. Even the Batman of the 90’s, which was influenced more by O’Neil than Miller, is a better role model.
Kind of thought it was hilarious that you have all these issues with other heroes, but currently, the mutants on Krakoa LITERALLY KILL each other, clone them using plants and pods, and then inject "their memories" aka "idealized" versions of the now dead REAL mutant character, and yet you praise Hickman and those other bogus creators on the mutant books. Pick a message, dude. Legitimately, all of the X-Men and most mutants are super dead. Do you like what the older Silver Age heroes stood for or not, because NONE of the mutants from the older X-Men would have even entertained that stupid idea half a second. Not even Sinister...well, maybe Sinister. Hickman is actually Mister Sinister, confirmed.
You never really said what you think they should stand for.
I get your issue with the recent corruption, as you see it, but I don't know what you want them to be in its place. The green lantern example is the strongest but it's still rather vague. What green lantern did you like that you wish it resembled?
Fair, I never straight out say what I want superheroes to represent- and I guess saying "it's the implication" is never a good idea anymore- but just check out some of my other videos to see what I think superheroes should represent.
Honestly, Hal Jordan is still my favorite Green Lantern (problematic but since Rebirth was my intro to the mythos it makes sense) and I'm sure I'll dive into my larger thoughts on Green Lantern in the future. Thanks for watching either way!
Great video. I really like the laconof partisan stances and the focus on positive change and inspiration. Definitely subbed.
The reason super heroes have lost they are values and meaning is the same reason good news doesn’t sell any more on mainstream media.
No one cares anymore. All the shitty aspects of the world is the only thing people focus on.
I don't feel like stories like Civil War do tarnish the image of superheroes for any longer than that storyline. I think that the continuities of these characters being already so long running has gotten audiences used to a constant reverting to the status quo, with deviations from it being for the sake of a temporary new take in a singular story. Then when these changes go on for too long, and a character is too far from their status quo for too long, people get bored - hence Marvel's never ending reboots these days. There's not the strength of attachment to continuity to spoil the image of iconic characters. Writers quickly move on, and so do readers.
Love the boys reference and punisher talk, learned a lot too !
went off the deep end half way through i see.
Great video really interesting and something I've felt being a problem with how people write Superman these days.
I'd like to think the current era of Supers blurring the line between absolute good as a correlating with the current state of being. People want more edgy stuff during our current peaceful times, while during bleak moments they looked for hope (how Superman was made in the first place). Someday we'll get a good superhero movie that takes us back to the heart of what the word hero truly means.
Thanks for watching and engaging with it!
I always have a lot of thoughts about Superman, I even made this recent video all about him:
czcams.com/video/FyA-UNDsUwg/video.html
I think The Iron Giant shows this perfectly well
I think what’s inspiring about the Punisher is that he takes matters into his own hands and kills those who actually did wrong
I kinda let mr fantastic have a pass for he later found way to redeem himself
I don’t give any Tony because he didn’t exactly learn
As for Millar adaptations I say the general Consensus is that it adaptation work better then it was written
Like his work is the rough draft and the adaptation is the completed draft of a logical conclusion
what's DC's bloody monday? i can't find it on google?
This Monday (August 10th) about a third of DC Comic's staff was laid-off as a part of larger structural changes at WarnerMedia. Coronavirus is obviously leading to some lost profit, but the real reason this is happening is AT&T, the parent company making all the budgetary decisions, has a massive amount of debt and needs to cut costs.
Who knows what the future of DC Comics will be but the impacts likely won't be felt until next yearish due to the fact that the next few months worth of books have already been solicited and creators have been paid.
Just look up DC Bloodbath
@@RickNazden speaking of at&t, as long as they own and control DC's characters, i don't expect to see real meaningful change regarding them. at&t tried to bribe trump via Michael Cohen.
Punisher character can be related to Parshuram in Indian Mythology. He is a demigod who goes on killing spree but he is not idolised like Lord Ram and Lord Krishna. Because his morality and ethics were lost. Later Parshuram went into calm Nirvana after he realised his work was done and need different direction in life.
Ngl I think the Kick-Ass movies fixed a decent amount of problems of the comic. I think it's a little unfair to lump it in with Millar's work when the movie is more genuine, heroic, and has a more compassionate take on the character.
You're right to a certain extent, but I think that was forced sanitizing to make it more appealing for general audiences, not that they wanted to make the characters better people.
@@RickNazden Fair enough, but intentions don't matter so much when we have the finished product. Dave is shown to actually want to save people instead of fulfilling a fantasy, and while he is kind of an asshole at the start, he does become the hero he should be at the end of the movie. I read through the comics and noted that they did not have any heroic moments at all for Kick-Ass, while the movie did, often being my favorite scenes.
I think Morrison right now is doing a good job a decopping Green Lantern right now, I think. Or at very least discussing some of the problems with the miltarization of the Corps with Blackstars. And getting back to a more pure essence. Meaning that they don't stand for man-made law rather laws of nature, laws of the universe,magnetics etc.
Speaking of which have you read Supergods by Morrison, if so what did you think?
Supergods is a great book but I honestly havent read it in a few years. If I had my copy with me in quarantine, I'm sure I would have quoted it quite a bit 😅
great job man on this amazing superhero dilemma with corrupting of our heroes like superman clark kent batman Spider-man peter parker and so many of our other heroes getting corrupted which is actually sad at least in my opinion.
Honestly the way comics are progressing nowadays especially right now. I think we should start making our own heroes. Basically you something right, do it yourself kinda thing. Sure it’ll take time to come up with ideas characters world building but it’s better to take your time rather than do something cheap quick and easy way(aka the lazy)
Part of the issue with the Punisher is that Garth Ennis and other writers handling him want to have their cake and eat it. They keep saying that the Punisher isn't a good person and we shouldn't admire him. Yet, Garth Ennis especially, keeps trying to sell the Punisher as the most badass person ever where he kills loads of awful people who the audience is meant to want to see dead. On top of this due to Garth's hatred of most traditional superheroes (believe it or nor he's a few soft spots like Superman, Daredevil and Spider-Man) means if they show up he has the Punisher humiliate them in order to make him look better.
It's a similar paradox to Rick & Morty with Rick Sanchez. The show has frequently hit us with this "Rick Snachez isn't cool" message. Yet episode after episode kept ending with Rick winning, being proven right about something, conflicts often started because people didn't listen to him, with season 3 opening up by making out to be a force of nature who can easily topple an intergalactic government.
If awful people like the Punisher and Rick Sanchez aren't supposed to be admired then the writers shouldn't make them feel like they are their own personal power fantasy. What did I say "feel like?" The Punisher is a personal power fantasy for Garth Ennis. This is the same writer who created The Boys (the comic not the far superior show), a series about a Punisher stand in who leads a team of vigilantes who gun down superheroes because in the name of realism superheroes are evil and super easy to kill. And the comic ended with said Punisher stand in turning into a villain who killed all but one of our main characters and lost not because his protege surpassed him, but because in a moment of redemption he decides to not go through his evil plan and allows himself to lose. All the while the comic plays NotPunisher's use of derogatory language as endearing trait because he doesn't mean it or something.
Garth Ennis created a world where his stand in the Punisher is a better person than the stand ins for most traditional superheroes. That is how much he loves the character.
I don't know if this was talked about or if you have another video about this, but what do you think of the Boys? I get similar vibes that equates to Mark Miller edgyness that borderlines to insulting to the heroes that they represent; nothing that redeems them, nothing that makes their actions understandable. Just assholes and sexual harassers that just want to be that way. Perhaps greed pushes them, but when you learn more about these dirt bags, you realize that profit isn't their motivation either, and I find it gross. I donno, am I reaching here or misunderstanding the work?
So I haven't actually read 'The Boys' but I watched season one while working on the video- hence why I shoved a quick clip in. I LOVED the first season of the show and think it is probably the most honest look at corporatism and superheroics in the modern world. Profit can only go so far, and I think The Boys does a good job of just showing that some people are truly twisted narcissists who think they deserve to save the world.
Mark Millar works better with a leash. He won an Eisner for writing the Superman The Animated Series tie in comics. His writing for the PSA comic Superman For the Animals is phenomenal and wholesome af. He should do more wholesome stuff like that than all his edgelord drivel.
@Rick Nazden 1. I agree with you it's disgusting for law enforcement to idolize and try mimic The Punisher he's not a superhero and he's definitely shouldn't be idolized. CZcamsr godzillamendoza made a great video on why his philosophy is not as pure as he claims it is when he made the video of why the Punisher TV series is nothing like the comic book Punisher. It's really a shame they don't look at the characters like Wonder Woman or Batman( especially him having a strong morality not to execute everyone just because it is there if it is very important everybody has the capacity for evil even Batman regardless of how Noble their intentions must be) 2. certain interpretations of our favorite characters like Frank Miller's Batman or Injustice Superman really do a disservice of misrepresenting what these characters stand for I'm okay with interpretations like these but I don't like it when they're used for movie adaptations or are praised as being one of the iconic depictions of these characters. Those don't sit right with me at all. 3. I'm really surprised that you didn't bring up garth ennis because he's made at pretty known that he is not a fan of the superhero genre the boys comic was him given the genre a massive middle finger it wasn't just made to be super edgy grotesque sexual. 4. Deconstruction has become a joke now when Elmore created he basically wanted to explore different genres with superheroes he wasn't trying to say if these characters for real it would be assholes there are some exceptions like jet bombers black hammer comic I really wish we get more optimistic takes on superhero deconstruction kind of like my hero Academia because I'm sick and tired of people assuming having sociopathic sex crazed maniacs or soul-less depressed gods is the only way to deconstruct superheroes. 5. You make a good point that the characters like Iron Man and Reed Richards shouldn't still be seen as super heroic or at least have consequences that should remain in the universe has a reminder that they can't be looked up the same way ever again. And ask for Civil War I actually like the movie better however I like CZcamsr Nando V movie rewrite of Civil War I highly recommend it.
I've re-watched this like six times now just to refer folks to the Punisher section. So magnificently made
I liked the analysis of threads in specific comic's plots, especially when viewed as it relates to ethics and real-world approaches, but I got lost around 16 minutes when the entire diaspora of comic plots got thrown together and different character arcs started getting conflated together. The tricky part about analyzing comic books is dealing with the reality that two observers can have entirely different knowledge bases of each character simply because so many authors have handled them so differently. I also enjoyed the irony of denigrating morality-pushers and then claiming that people "shouldn't like" something. I think if this video was 15 minutes long, it would have been great, with some real valued social commentary, but the Mark Miller tirade should have been saved for another day.
I feel like it's okay to enjoy these subversive interpretations of superheroes. Even though I haven't read Mark Millar's stuff, I think it's not that harmful because most of the stuff isn't really in the main continuity. The only problem is if we aspire to be the "heroes" featured in his stories. But yeah, I think I agree that more heroes should be inspirational than edgy for the sake of being edgy. That's why I love Peter J. Tomasi's Superman run and Nick Spencer's current Spidey run.
But see the thing is the MCU movies use a lot of the Ultimate universe stuff in their version of the Marvel superheroes cannon. Which means for a lot of fans, who never read the comics, that is the quintessential version of the character, story arc, ect.
@@TheDaks27 That's a very good and interesting point that you brought up. Even though the MCU movies are inspired by the Ultimate universe stuff, I think the heroes are adapted well in that they are similar to the 616 characters at their core. Superhero movies don't have to be accurate as long as the characters have the main traits from the comic that make them special. The MCU understands this and acts on it. They knew what to take and what not to take from the Ultimate Universe comics. Plus, the MCU's characters are moral and are good examples for kids to follow, hence most of them being PG-13. The heroes of the MCU mostly don't corrupt American myths.
I think what's a good example of what you're trying to say is the DCEU. Because THAT is something that is very edgy and dark. Some of the characters in the DCEU are way worse than the versions from the comics. Because the universe was rushed, some of the people in the Justice League aren't well-defined and don't represent the character from the comics, and like, BvS was literally based on The Dark knight Returns, and keeps it's dark tone. Batman even kills, and Zack Snyder said he's okay with that. For many, the current DCEU is their interpretation of these amazing characters, and that's kinda sad. The DCEU I think is the right example of heroes corrupting American myths, not the MCU.
But anyway, thank you for bringing up that cool reply. Even though our views might not align, thanks for being civil and I hope we continue to be.
It's kind of funny to me how you use the Uncle Ben quote to make your point. Don't know if this was intentional or not but the misquoting of "with great power there *must also come* great responsability" as "with great power *comes* great responsability" really drives home how often we misunderstand the role of superhero myths. Also goes to show that even back in the silver age -- through a somewhat idealistic perspective -- Stan Lee had at least some idea that people with power don't always face the consequences of using it (but they always should).
On another note, I haven't read the recent Grant Morrison run on Green Lantern Corps yet but I'm assuming that if it wasn't mentioned in video it must be because it doesn't add a lot to the conversation. Disappointing since Morrison has always been very openly against the militarization of superheroes, making him just the right guy to write a storyline defunding the Corps.
Overall, this was a great an important piece, Rick! Hope the message really spreads.
Great point! I know the original quote goes "must also come great responsibility," but thanks to the Raimi films I do think "With great power comes great responsibility" has stuck out more with the general audience.
I started Morrison's Green Lantern but haven't finished it yet. I'm sure that book and "Far Sector" really do challenge this idea and I can't wait to see it get more wide acceptance.
This is really well-written, but I think your manner of speaking makes it hard to sit through. You have this tendency to pause mid-sentence, and that's good for emphasizing a point, but you're doing that almost every line and it's kind of exhausting to listen to. There needs to be a flow between words.
Can't agree more on Punisher issue
Mark Millar is an extremely interesting author. He either needs someone to leash him and crack the whip above his head to write good stories or he is, basically, a Michael Bay of comics. Because being consistent in your success alone is a sign of deep understanding of your craft.
Because, while he is more well-known for BS, like "Wanted" and "Nemesis", he also wrote some of the best Superman stories there are, his "Starlight" is one of the least cynical stories I've seen and the fact that a lot of his MAINSTREAM stories are unanimously considered must-reads is clearly a sign that there is a lot more to his approach then simple cynisism and juvenile humour. Millar is successful not because he writes edgy, but because he knows what he is doing. Because time and time again we are proven that nobody is interested in pure edginess, that has nothing behind it
Actually, re-reading "The Ultimates" over the years I can say that while I liked it for being edgy when I was 14, I still love it for being the only successful attempt at recreating "Watchmen" at the age 21. They are similar to the point of both being misunderstood and interpreted the opposite way to the one intended
As for Green Lanterns... I kinda don't get what your problem is. That Guardians made an outdated "one size fits all" solution to the complicated problem? Exactly this is the driving force behind many great GL stories. That they are policemen? Well, somebody has to be. And policemen can be inspiring. I have friends in law enforcement and one of them said this:
-- You watch too much news. On the news they tell how policemen raped a woman while interrogating her. How policeman killed a person beating a confession out of them. What they don't tell is how the policeman caught a dangerous criminal. How he helped woman who stole baby food to get a job instead of throwing her in jail. How he scared the trouble-maker kid into good behaviour instead of ruining his life with crime record. Are there incompetent and evil people? Yes. But they are few. And we do a damn good job at keeping our lines clean
It is sad, that no GL book ever has this position
Police force likes punisher
Why don’t like superman who represent hope or captain America
I was never a huge superhero fan. I got bored with comics in high school and tired of super hero movies with Thanos' finger snap.
What I saw in this video was a guy who wants to see his politics reaffirmed in comics. "Defund the Green Lantern Corps" !!! For Christ sake this just isn't more stupid than trying to defund the police in the real world.
I kinda got the same vibes. But, I typed up a whole damn essay. Now I see I didn't need to comment at all.
You have said it all.
You have said it all.
Yup this guy clearly wants comics to be biased towards his political views.
Amazing video! I feel like this is something comic fans should all be thinking about. We need more superhero stories that build up right now, rather than deconstruct. Heroes that are genuinely good humans, not just powerful humans.
I completely agree that the Punisher is in no way a character to be idolized. He isn't a superhero, and any attempt to portray him as one does a disservice to the idea of superheroes in general.
I would imagine that for people in law enforcement, there is a frustration with being unable to do what needs to be done, justice that can't be served. They see problems that they can solve and people they can catch, but are held back by paperwork and legalities and loopholes. The Punisher's ability to work outside the law taps into those frustrations and allows some release.
Let me start, by saying that I love your channel and wish you more subscribers. Have been a fan of your work for some time now. But even though I watched this video in one sitting and agree with all of the ideas and intent presented, I must admit, that I find a lot ot those examples don't really work here. Video still makes great points, I just think they could be represent with other stories, in some cases.
Like Green Lanterns being a police force enforcing their own values.
Sinestro's whole supervillain origin is based on the notion, that he used his green lantern ring to turn his homeplanet of Korugar into a fascist police state, where HE says what's right and wrong, while also using extreme measures of punishment on people. Green Lantern Corps are the ones to take him down, Hal Jordan saying, that Sinestro represents the people, not the other way around.
As you said "one size doesn't fit all", that's why Guardians' use of robot Manhunters is considered a failure and lead to a massacre in Sector 666. Thus Guardians switched to inhabitants of each sector as green lanterns to represent their respective people. And Corps evolved with time, adding more Lanterns to each sector, a lot of the time of different races and backgrounds. Yeah, people of those planets don't vote on their Lanterns, but they're not chosen by biased Guardians either, they're chosen "magically" for their willpower, and have a nonkilling rule.
Guardians and Lanterns made a lot of mistakes, but this is the point, our "protectors" aren't perfect. Meanwhile, the messages of what was a mistake and what was a good decision for them, are usually in line with a lot of your wishes voiced in the video.
There are other examples I disagree with, but you get the idea.
Would love to see a part 2 to these video, if you would like to make one. Really thought-provoking and well-made. Keep up the good job.
Wow, thank you for watching in one-sitting. Hopefully you had a good snack.
Fair point. There's A LOT more to be said about Green Lantern, and maybe I shouldn't have lightly touched on the idea in my conclusion, but I wanted to mention it since it was the concept that got this whole thing started in my head. I still think the Guardians apply a rather uniform solution to things and don't let their deputies work outside the box. Just think about how often people like Hal and Guy get in trouble with the guardians, to the point of even straight up having their rings revoked, for going outside Lantern protocol while ultimately doing the right thing on a mission.
@@RickNazden oh, 100%, Guardians are not good leaders, not questioning that. I'm just saying, that authors are NOT approving a poorly led police force, on the contrary, they're depicting it, TO SHOW WHY it's harmful.
P.S. I did have a good snack while watching )))
Alright man. I get that you enjoy the idealism of gold and silver age heros.
Thing is reality isn't that simple and getting angry over something like writer's views isn't worth it and blaming them for America's short comings is short sighted.
The reason a lot of vets look up to the punisher is for the same reason as the bat. It's because they are dealing with similar or comparable trauma.
I know this first hand. I can't speak for the experiences in other branches. But I can the Marine Corps ask any Marine Corps Vet not about their time in serving out of country, but bootcamp, you'll see what I mean in the way they laugh and joke at the training like it wasn't that serious.
Like being treated like the scum of the earth for 3 months straight didn't screw them up mentally and it was fun and games. Then disect the experience yourself piece by piece.
It's not hard to see why these people latch so strongly to figures that show and struggle the same way they are.
You briefly touched this subject but then completely ignored it. Latching onto the violence and vulgarity like those that blame the same things in videogames for the degradation of society despite numerous peer reviewed scientific studies stating the opposite.
The worst is you tout Batman like a hero when he is nearly the same as a the punisher. Especially in the Dark Knight Returns.
I think you are blinded by what you originally enjoyed as darker adult themed comics and fail to recognize people enjoy many things for many reasons, some good, some bad.
We often like the first thing introduced to us more then the next, but try not to lump everything into general sweeps like this. It's not a good look.
Thanks for watching! Happy to see it got you thinking about some things
@@RickNazden no problem man otherwise enjoyed the watch.
...sorry, I had to do a double-take. Why did you MS Paint out Geoff and Ethan's names? Was there a good reason? I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, why even do it?
Wow, that impressive effect was handled in After Effects thank you very much.
Both creators are pretty problematic right now, one DEFINITELY more so than the other. GJ is one of my favorite comic book writers, but let's see how things shake up at the moment before I start singing his praises on the channel.
Same difference.
Ethan getting booted from DC by assholes and starting a successful company on his own is problematic?
I don't know why people are on Geoff lately, but I'm sure it's just as riveting.
If that's all you think about the situation and are happy to ignore his public displays of racism and multiple instances of doxing people he disagreed with, just know you're missing a whole lot of why people are actually angry at him.
I haven't seen anything overtly racist from him, but I don't follow him religiously or like a twitter stalker. If legitimately bad things are happening, then yeah, I'm gonna disagree with that 100%, but there are also assholes on both sides of anything and everything. If Ethan is open about it, at least he's open about it so he can be publicly shamed for it and not secretly hiding it like I guarantee you more than a few people on the opposite side are doing currently. I'm not comicsgate and never was, BUT the want to have better comics than the middle school-level cutesy bullshit that currently poisons the shelves today is just about the only thing I will agree on with them. I don't mean the racist shit about the characters, I mean comics that actually have a story, and that actually fucking have a point other than to waste my time.
Mark Millar's the kind of guy who would write a villain strap bombs to a womb as a way to show how **EVUL** he is, oh wait, he did! good lord, this guy is so juvenile, literally no one on this world or even fiction would do that to a pregnant woman. it just sounds so stupidly pointless. it is so tarded
watchman killed superheroes
Superheroes were deconstruction, beat up, made edgy, stupid and violent
but now its time to build them up stronger and brighter its time to reconstruction them to show people what they are all really about
You get it 🙌🙌🙌
Kinda one of the reasons why I love Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman so much.
@@ShinbrigTV Yeah its awesome its everything I love about Superman but my favorite Superman comic is Superman Secret Identity
Invincible Astro City and Kingdom Come on my favorite reconstruction of the genre
Well, I guess we know where Rick Nazden stands. Green Lantern: Rebirth was also my introduction to that franchise as well. I have the 3 Johns Omnis, and I loved every second of them. I have to ask, could it be that you are perhaps taking your real life perceptions of imperfect human cops who make mistakes and mentally overlapping that on top of a fictional intergalactic police force? Context is important, like why the Corps (pronounced "Core") was created. A universe in total chaos where pre programmed machines were insufficient. Don't try and trick newbies into thinking that the Guardians of the Universe and their Corps of space cops are fascists who want to prescribe, as you said, a one size fits all solution for all planets and cultures. GLs function as guardians against violence in their sectors. They deal with things like murderers (Romat Ru), or smugglers (Kanjar Ro), to planetary invasions by hostile forces. But, these planets are still run by their own governments who make all their own laws. Each planet is allowed to retain their culture and government(s). The Guardians don't force their Lanterns into transforming the planets in their sector to a more Oan society. Whatever "defunding" the Corps would mean, it would be unimaginably bad! Seeing as how the immorality found on Earth is not unique to humans, it would be very bad for many intergalactic cultures if the Corps was not out in force in their current, or at least classic capacity, that is one Lantern for each of the 3600 sectors. As mentioned above, murder, trafficking, and war are all a reality in the DC cosmos. Imagine how much worse things would be if the Corps was not there, or not in their current capacity. I'm not trying to have a pro cops/defund cops argument here, but the evidence seems to show that the DC cosmos would be in utter shambles and ruins if not for emerald law. Also, as far as your argument goes toward the Guardians entrusting the most powerful weapons in the universe to various species, there was a JL episode where John Stewart was put on trial for supposedly destroying a planet. The prosecutor asked the Guardians and the Lanterns how they know what the right thing to do is. If you remember, or if you saw it at all, John came out on top, showing that the Guardian's trust in who the rings choose was not misplaced. And if you want to come back with, "Yeah, but a GL ring also chose Sinestro". Well, I recommend the villains's month one shot adding a nice detail to his origin as a GL. Turns out, he was not chosen at all. He was temporarily given a ring to save a gravely injured Lantern from another alien threat, and when Sinestro defeated the threat, he viewed himself (a first timer) as a better fit than this experienced Lantern. He never told anyone that he refused to give back the ring to its rightful wielder who he let die. Point is, I think any sort of real life equivalency of defunding cops and making that argument for a fictional space corps is lost when you see all the good that the corps has done. All in all, and I'm finished here, seems to me like your real life perceptions of cops have caused you to falsely attach negative feelings toward the GLC. I personally found Hal Jordan and the GLC to be tremendously heroic and inspirational during Johns's run, and even after during Venditti's Rebirth HJatGLC. "He was the spark that started the everlasting fire". Epic and mythic!
The stuff about Millar was informative.
And besides, I think we can all agree that "One More Day" was infinitely more corrupting than anything mentioned in THIS video.
Happy the video got you thinking so much. Thanks for watching
Honestly I've always hated narratives that gave the audience and easy hero to root for. "Sure he made a few token mistakes for character arc purposes, but in the end he wiped away all sin and chose the objectively pure and good option." In my opinion a good superhero should challenge the very idea of hero worship. A superhero is just a person with unusual power, yet fundamentally challenged with the same moral choices we all face. I love scenes like when Batman comes across copy-cats who want to to be costumed vigilantes like him. He chastises them and yet the reality is that by successfully operating outside the law he encourages this behavior! His actions demonstrate that one can use wealth and force to impose the type of order they deem just. Is it right to aspire to his model of justice? Is aspiring to his model of behavior healthy for attaining a peaceful and lawful society? What legacy will he leave Gotham?
I find cackling evil villains and pure of virtue heroes to be more damaging than inspiring. They suggest a type of thinking where complex problems can be reduced to those two extremes. I think it's even worse if a hero is written to be given a token challenge of principle which they wipe clean by the finale. Scars be they physical or against ones character don't often fade so easily, nor should they! Such failings remind us of our own humanity and, properly framed, remind us of our *shared* humanity super-powers or not!
"Who value Wonder Woman ..."
Right, the superhero who beheaded a defeated foe on live TV.
Over all good analysis but you wear your toxic progressiveness on your sleeve.
Acab
And death to america, of course.
13:00 I stopped watching here.
Disgusting is to defend and protect pedofiles and murderes, who destroy the lives of innocent truly good people.
The Punisher IS, ALWAYS WAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE an inspiration 💀🖤🩶