Can You Break the Oath of Fëanor? | Down the Hobbit Hole - Episode 3
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- * This podcast episode was originally published on my Patreon page 6/30/2022 and is a follow-up to my video on Oaths and Curses: • Oaths and Curses | Mag... *
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This series contains extra details, discussion, and conjectures that could not be fit into published videos. If you would like access to the most recent episodes, including additional analysis not featured on CZcams, consider joining my Patreon to access these benefits! / girlnextgondor
Timestamps:
Intro and thesis - 0:00
Textual history and passages - 5:35
How the Oath Works - 13:10
Maglor's Argument and Other Options - 22:27
Oath by Proxy 1: Dagor Bragollach - 29:06
Oath by Proxy 2: The Nargothrond Incident - 31:56
Oath by Proxy 3: Nirnaeth - 39:45
The Best Option - 42:59
Estel and thematic relevance - 47:48
Thumbnail Art Credits:
"Maedhros" by Claudia Gironi: www.deviantart.com/wisesnaila...
"Maglor Haunted" by Alystraea :www.deviantart.com/alystraeaa...
Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for fair use purposes such as criticism, commentary, parody, news, reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. All works used in this video (images, audio, etc.) belong to their respective authors and are used with permission or in accordance with the copyright holder's stated usage policy.
Thank you to those who have supported me on Patreon and made this podcast possible!
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#tolkien #lordoftherings #silmarillion
No, he was lefty
This joke is always funny
I see what ya did there....
I kind of though that “reading too much into things” was the whole entire complete point of this channel… that’s what I’m here for.
or just stayed in Himring as his fortress both stood the forces of Morgoth and survived the cataclysm after the War of Wrath. He would need a boat though to navigate the Belegaer. But even as Beleriand was sinking if would take some bravery and a bit of crazy as the elves, dwarves, men, orcs, ents, trolls, dragons, animals would not have known how much of Beleriand was going to sink. And I am sure they were told by the host of Valinor to get moving East or perish before the Ainur and Amanyar (Calaquendi) elves returned home.
The real everlasting darkness is the enemies we made along the way
🤣 the last decade or so of Maedhros' life is haunted by the single recurring thought that Morgoth makes some good points. "IDK maybe we DO deserve to be wiped off the face of Arda. Perhaps we SHOULD all be working toward the dissolution of Ea into a formless void."
Maedhros the nihilist, interesting. I think that makes sense after everything he's been through. He probably realized that the Feanorean claim to the Silmarils was void from the first kin-slaying. And the loss of Fingon during a military action of Maedhros' own devising was the last stake through his heart.
Eucatastic? Or eucatastrophic?
@@hewe4625 considering the light captured was not his but a create of the Valarie makes a case.
I can’t escape the feeling that Maedhros would have had a better life bolted to Thangorodrim for the entire First Age.
Don't forget it was the Eagle of Manwe who prevented Fingon from just putting him out of his misery. Mercy for the Noldor in their need, or the wrath of the Valar after all? 🤔😉
@@GirlNextGondor another inside job!
@@GirlNextGondor Sometimes, and almost always where Morgoth Bauglir is concerned, mercy is crueler than the alternative.
"I'm tired of motherf*cking hanging from this motherf*cking rock!"
"Too bad. Suck it, oathboy."
- Thingol, probably
Hardly.
There is maybe a loophole:
The oath forces to recover the silmarils from anyone who would keep them ftom them, but it says nothing about what to do after they have been recovered, so technically they could have taken them and then willingly released them to the Valar, fulfilling the oath anyway.
It's only now occured to me:
Elronds mother held one of the Silmaril, and gave it to his dad. The other two were, at least for a short time, in the posession of his foster fathers.
So in a way, the Silmaril are linking all of Elrond and Elros's parents/parent figures together.
The Silmaril: a more constant presence in Elrond's life than any of his so-called Daddies.
@@GirlNextGondor The below is probably obvious, but:
The name of the book always gave me pause. Silmarillion. Silmarilli is the Quenya plural of Silmarils and -on a generic male name ending. The silmarils are a character of their own, the main character of the book, really.
Another way to take it- in both Quyena and Sindarin -ion is the suffix used for son. Son of the Silmarils.
So I took that to mean the book is about the Silmarils and the effects of them, the metaphorical children of the Silmarils.
I suppose Elrond is more of a literal son of the Silmarils.
@@Olivia-W Yes, but no. Sorry to rain on your parade, but the title 'the Silmarillion' is a shortening of the section title 'I Quenta Simlarillion.'
This is a Quenya term meaning "The History of (the) Silmarils." '-on' in this case is the genitive plural ending, meaning more or less "of somethings" and is attached to the end of the plural noun, in this case 'Silmarili."
While it looks similar to '-on' 'one' or '-ion' 'son of' those are only linguistic coincidences. Interesting ones, but not the intended meaning.
Your concluding thoughts make me realize how much the Silmarillion and LOTR are thematically complementary yet somewhat opposite:
In the Silmarillion, almost everyone (save a few notable standouts) makes the wrong/selfish decision and as a result, they basically lose. In the Lord of the Rings, thanks to 7000 years of hindsight, and humility, almost everyone makes the selfless and correct decision, putting their trust in the eucatastrophe and saving the world as a result
I should note that contracts don't bind those who don't agree to them. The Valar certainly didn't agree to enforce the Oath and there is no record of Illuvatar doing so. Feanor and his sons bound only themselves. Maglor was correct that the Oath was beyond fulfillment and ought not to be pursued further. I'm under the impression that Roman Catholic doctrine (Tolkien was a Catholic) holds that sinful oaths are not binding. It should be noted that the Noldor were not exiled until after the Kinslaying (it was the sinful means of achieving the goal for which the Feanorians were punished; not for taking the Oath per se). In any case, Maedhros and Maglor were in a trap of their own making, and from which they were unable to escape by themselves (only the Valar and Illuvatar could release them)..
The consequences of the Oath (and responsibility therefor) would remain whether broken or not. The best Maedhros and Maglor could do was to repent and submit to the judgement of the Valar.
I'm a big fan of the idea that dooms and curses are self-fulfilling in Tolkien's world because that's often the case in the myths and legends that he drew upon. I haven't actually read any case where he discusses the free will issue in relation to Feanor and his sons, but given how often and how deeply he seemed to be considering it in his later years I think he probably considered this all to be the result of an actually avoidable decision by Feanor, rather than some inescapable path of destiny. That definitely makes the string of tragedies regarding the wars in Beleriand all the more depressing.
I'm glad good boy Huan got a mention!
In regards to Mandos expecting Feanor to come to his halls soon, I imagine the Halls of Mandos must be the most awkward place on Middle-Earth. Imagine having to share this space with people you personally killed to steal their boats. That's gonna get really cringy around the water cooler.
I feel like what Maglor kinda did was going for by personally and intentionally chucking the silmaril was almost trying to simplify I the curse by making him have to only pursue himself as the one who cast away the silmaril and made it practically unattainable. Then all he had to do was live with that personal internal struggle and he wouldn't have to violently pursue anyone. Anyway he's a bean and I love him and want to give him a hug and hot cocoa.
Given the wording of the Oath,
Maedros took "death we will deal him ere Day's ending"
Maglor took "woe unto world's end"
pick your poison, I suppose.
@@painlord2k 😭😭😭
Could you murder someone by forcing them to swear unbreakable impossible oath at knife point and see destiny to take care of them?
I haven't watched this yet, but a 50-minute Fëanorian video from you means it's going to be good
It is!
It is!
Blind hope in the inevitable victory of good is apparently the most powerful force in middle earth. I think this is something we ought to keep in mind today, when much of the world seems hopeless.
Blind hope in the inevitable victory of good combined with a stubborn dedication to do whatever you can to help that along, even if that amounts to exactly nothing. Just sitting around hoping for the best never accomplishes anything.
Girl, don't apologize for your videos. I enjoy them. It's good to have a feminine view of these stories.
Glad you enjoyed it 😊 I will continue to bear the standard of the Rabid Fangirl deep into the fens of CZcams!
Eärendil does come back to Valinor on occasion, doesn't he? And visit Elwing, so the brothers would have been obligated to try to ambush him and regain the Silmaril, if they were in Valinor.
I do think that Maedhros was correct in his interpretation of what the oath required. The problem of oaths is that they can bind you to do something immoral, which means that whatever you do will be immoral, since oath breaking is immoral.
The text says "none *should* break", not "none *can* break": i.e. the consequences of breaking the oath are so horrible, it should not be done. But it is technically possible to break the oath. However, that does kind of suggest that Maglor is actually wrong: somehow, the consequences of breaking the oath would be worse than the consequences of fulfilling it.
I think this what Maedhros fears-- if they go to Valinor (at least at FIRST in repentance) they may later do something far worse than they wind up doing.
I can't escape the notion that an oath to do evil can be renounced without incurring the wrath of Eru. He cares about oaths not because He's a stickler for rules, but because He's a stickler for good character.
By my estimation the idea of Maedhros' plan being the most "pragmatically correct," even if Maglor's was the one we are supposed to view as correct with the benefit of hindsight and historical distance, seems to be the intended reading of the narrative - the fact that it's the plan they chose to follow, permanently cementing their ultimate downfall in the process, at least very strongly suggests as much. It just fits too well with the whole idea of their oath being their curse, how their simple belief that it could not be broken (regardless of whether or not it actually could) pushed them down all their different dark paths in the name of trying to "technically" fulfill it even if they really didn't want to.
On a more pedantic note, some thoughts regarding the repeated return to the exact wording of the oath: if we break down the ideas stated, they specifically swear "to pursue with wrath and vengeance" anyone or anything that should "hold from," "take from," or "keep from" them any or all of the Silmarilli. Having done some brief and dirty research into the linguistics behind those specific words (because this is Tolkien we're talking about here) I think we can reasonably read those as "assert ownership of," "steal," and "support someone else's assertation of ownership of." As such I would argue that simply possessing a Silmaril (like, if you find it in a bush or something) wouldn't mark you for vengeance as long as you gave it back when asked for it, which of course nobody ever did.
At a bit more of a stretch, I would also imagine that it would be perfectly reasonable for them to allow someone to continue possessing one, or indeed to give it away freely to someone else, as long as said someone didn't then claim ownership. Nowhere does the oath prevent them from voluntarily relinquishing the Silmarilli, and indeed Maglor arguably does so despite the apparent unbreakability of the oath. That's not to suggest allowing anyone else to so much as touch a Silmaril is something any of the oath-takers would ever realistically do - if Fëanor and his brood were the types to share this whole plot wouldn't have happened - but it's at least an idea worth considering in the interest of analysing the narrative.
And when Maglor does find out that he can relinquish the Silmaril without being cast to the Void, everything he has done up to this point will haunt him for as long as he lives. Which is a very depressing yet fitting note to close the story of the Noldor's fall.
I'm glad you came around in the end that Maedhros' view was morally wrong. It made more sense to me to repent of taking the oath in the first place, especially because they both regretted it. What I think is still not resolved is whether the oath had supernatural effects or not. "The oath" can't do things if the people who took it have repented of making it, ask forgiveness of those who they invoked, and stop following it. So I don't think it's true that they had no option. They just weren't willing to take the risk. As you say, similar to the one ring.
The problem is, how do you ask forgiveness of someone who doesn't live in the same world as you?
The answer: you try, and Eru Iluvatar takes pity on you and allows you to succeed despite this being effectively impossible. Again, similar to the One Ring.
I think Maeglor had the better idea. To have forsaken the oath, even if it meant calling the everlasting darkness upon themselves, if done selflessly and with the intention of doing less evil, might have bought just enough pity from Eru to win forgiveness. Even by taking the 2 remaining Silmarils, the oath could have been considered fulfilled, at which point they could have done what Feanor was too proud and selfish to do. They could have given them to the Valar of their own free will and accepted the truth that they were no longer entitled to any claim on them. In the end, the oath only pursued them because they disposed of the Silmarils in such a way as to deny the only remaining light of the 2 trees to everyone rather than let anyone else have them. If they had either forsaken the oath or surrendered the Silmarils voluntarily, they might have been forgiven.
Technically the Oath of Feanor don't exclude Feanor and his kin.
It dooms EVERYONE without distinctions of kin, kinds, time and space until the end of time and space in Arda.
It is not fulfilled retaking the Silmarili, it is fulfilled punishing everyone "whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
finding keepeth or afar casteth a Silmaril"
And if they fail, eternal darkness.
And eternal darkness is (In Mandos) because the Valar would not reembodied someone hellbent to kill and cause pain to others until the end of time and space in Arda. Everyone reembodied in Arda, from Morgoth to Thingol to Dior, etc. is a target to Feanor and his sons as soon as they get reembodied.
The only way not to incur in the curse is to leave it where you found it or destroying it where you found it.
In fact, as soon as Varda Hallow them making touching them unbearable for creatures evil/impure, The Curse is active. Feanor made them so desirable (because of the Light) and Varda made them unbearable for evil creatures.
This combination make them impossible to keep them for yourself.
@@painlord2k that’s not right for a couple of reasons. The Eternal Darkness isn’t in Mandos. It’s the void. The same place where Morgoth was sent in punishment. The oath didn’t become active when the Silmarils were hallowed. Feanor still had them at that time. And it wasn’t the oath or the curse that made them painful to touch. It was the evil of the person.
Great stuff, Can we get a video on how truly awful Eonwe is at his job?
He allows two guys to enter the camp of the largest host ever assembled to steal 2 of the most hallowed artifacts in creation and THEN
-Sauron, return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwe!
-Nah
-Well. I'm off then. Please, please don't hide in Middle-Earth and fall back into evil.
It seems curses and oaths have greater or lesser weight for very arbitrary reasons- Isildur can curse an entire army of men and doom them as trapped spirits for thousands of years, until they fulfil their oath; which they do when they follow Aragorn. The greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, Feanor, can swear an oath so powerful that not even the Valar dare interfere, which is why they banish all the Noldor who follow Feanor. Gollum swears an oath to be faithful to Frodo but swears on the One Ring which is inherently evil and a curse to all but Sauron, does Gollum meet his fiery end due to breaking his oath to Frodo or being cursed by the ring who wishes to be rid of Gollum? Morgoth curses the children of Hurin and it seems the curse succeeds, yet how much of it is due to the poor decisions of Turin and the great pride of Morwen is unclear: were they compelled by the curse, or was it there poor choices?
The only constant in all of this is the will and the unclear plan of Eru Illuvatar. Oaths and curses have greater power if Eru wills it, and it assists with His divine plan. The curse of Isildur helps the Men of the West win the battle of the Pelennor Fields. The oath of Gollum ensures that his final treachery destroys not only himself but the ring. The curse of Morgoth helps to hasten the downfall of Beleriand and bring about the intervention of the Valar and thus Morgoth's downfall.
It is clear that the Silmarils shape not only much of Arda's history but influence Elves and Men. Without the oath of Feanor I don't think the Noldor would have ever left Aman, or been banished. Without the oath of Feanor I don't think Beren would ever have set off on his quest to take a silmaril for Thingol would not have been tempted by the silmarils. Without the oath of Feanor there's no Elwing casting herself into the sea; nor any Earendel using it as a light to pierce through the material and spiritual defences of Aman.
I think the key to understanding the final days of Maglor and Maedhros is the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which makes mention of the reunification of the three silmarils. And just as Mandos predicted one went to the air, one went to the sea, and one went into the earth. It was not just the Doom of Mandos and the Oath of Feanor which drove Maedhros and Maglor to madness. There were other more powerful forces which ensured that, for a brief time, Maedhros and Maglor would possess the silmarils before each respectively relinquished their claim.
Without the Second Prophecy of Mandos the story of the silmarils is incomplete and the ending of the official Silmarillion is unclear and unfinished.
1. This channel quenches my thirst for intilectual discussion.
2. The debate and consequences of the oth scares the hell out of me. It is the literal description of hell. Gives me shivers! Well done!
3. Love this channel! You go Gondor Girl! Your knocking it out of the park!🙃☺
Imagine being a soldier of the Host of Eonwe and you survived the War of Wrath only to draw lots for guard duty of the Silmarills… thats a bad deal.
One of the unwritten rules that underpin these sorts of metaphysical conundrums that I've observed is the closer one is to the Music and its creation, the more tightly bound to fate one becomes. The more powerful the spirit, the more that the gravity of Fate holds you to Ea and or Arda. Ultimately, once Feanor and the boys took that oath, fate and the Shadow in themselves would conspire to make every major decision the wrong one with fate destroying whatever their own words and deeds did not.
The only solution that I could imagine is if Eonwe gives Maedhros and Maglor what they want. Burning agony ensues. This is when they are taken prisoner. Special manacles that bind their hands around the Silmaril (Yes, it burns Maedhros' phantom limb) would be fashioned for the march to the sea and the long voyage back to Aman. During this voyage of searing heat and the agony of being rejected by the object of their oath and quest, M & M might perhaps meditate on the heinous atrocities they committed from Alqualonde to Sirion in vain pursuit of the gems that are, even now, burning their flesh. Once in Aman, Maedhros and Maglor must climb up Mt. Taniquetil still bound to the gems that love them not. Before the thrones of Manwe and Varda, the brothers will learn that Maedhros is correct and even they cannot unbind and oath made to Iluvatar. It's above their pay grade. However, Manwe can phone Home and ask for intervention from the All-Father for his wayward Children. If they managed to get this far and are truly repentant, managing a feat that eluded Sauron, Saruman, their dad and their dead brothers, my gut tells me that Eru would show mercy to His Children, but there would almost certainly be a eucatastic quest or service that would require the rest of their current lives in Middle Earth. That's right, Middle Earth. They don't get to stay in Aman. They have a lot of fences to mend and work to do.
That's an intriguing possibility
I think your argument about the Void discounts the fact that the Fëanorians were Calaquendi, those who had seen the light, and that the Silmarils were the vessels of the last remaining light of the Two Trees, the light that Melkor sought to extinguish from Arda and deprive all others in existence of.
To the Fëanorians, it would stand to reason that no fate could be worse than to be deprived of the light for all eternity, and the Void was just that, the absence of the light. Their punishment for breaking the oath would be an eternity deprived of the light, and to them, that would have been worse than any other torment they could have imagined or endured. It was the desire to possess the Light that drove Fëanor (Spirit of Fire) to invest so much of himself in the creation of the Silmarils that he diminished himself in the first place.
As far as I see it, not only can you break it, breaking it was an inevitability, and the Feanorians were told as much in the Doom of Mandos. The further they follow their oath, the less right they have to hold the Silmarils.
If Maedhros and Maglor had sworn a new oath of the kind and nature that would pacify Fëanor's Oath, could they escape the curse that would be imposed upon them by breaking Fëanor's Oath? Since the Oath of Fëanor is an oath on Eru, can an oath be taken above this oath? If possible, how? This is an ambiguous situation that seems impossible to me.
How about "The Oath of Fëanor and the Curse of Mandos" a musical by Maglor.😁👍
I believe it's called the Noldolante 🤣
Great video. Listening to you, it occurred to me that the description of the Oath as given in the Silmarillion says nothing whatsoever about retaking the Silmarills. Same with the actual text of it in Morgoth's Ring and the synopsis given in the Waldman letter. Taken it at face value, the only aim of the oath is to punish those who do take them, and to pursue this course for the rest of time. To be even more literal about it, it doesn't even exclude Feanor and his sons from these consequences. Which is probably taking things too far, but does kind of fit the actual events.
I agree that Tolkien probably wasn't overly-focused on the precise wording of the oath, but I absolutely think it's significant (and not entirely unintentional) that the Oath is so oriented on *indiscriminate* vengeance and wrath, rather than obtaining a positive good or even redressing wrongs. An oath to 'retake the Silmarils at all costs' or even 'make Morgoth pay as thoroughly as possible' would still have led to A Bad Time, imo, but one with conceivable solutions that wouldn't be quite as bad as the bind our boys find themselves in.
Poor Elrond's daddies :(
As bad as I feel for them, I feel worse for Elrond. He's sort of a reverse Turin: prudent and humble and kind and generally makes good choices, but getting close to him is STILL a great way to suffer some kind of bizarre Doom.
@@GirlNextGondor Tolkien Untangled did a wonderful epic video about Elrond. The thumbnail has epic artwork of Elrond with caption that says “It’s a sad/tragic story” and this guys prose in the way he presents things in his own way are just beautiful
Doomilicious? Doomilicious.
. . . . Shit, that's good.
But (arguably) more importantly, the connection you made between what to do about the Silmarils and what to do about the Ring, the similarity of the choices in both cases, and the differences in their outcomes, is one helluva thought. There are lots of similarities between the Ring and the Silmarils, but that's one that never occurred to me.
It took me almost two weeks just to find the time to listen to this, and boy it was worth it! Once again you outdid yourself Lexi!
Ouah, I definitely do agree that the Oath seems to have reduced the destinies of the Feanorians' to a cycle of suffering and futility. What is more is that the notion of Celegorm & Curufin not pursuing the Silmarils in the Leithian story hadn't occurred to me. With that said, Maedhros when he established his brothers and his realm, seems to have broken the Oath if temporarily as he relaxed for a time the assaults upon Angband. That he had not pursued the Silmarils with as much vigour as he likely was expected to by the Oath, so that the curse whipped up and turned on him and his siblings, who had decided to forgo the Oath for a time.
Weirdly I had thought on my first read-through of the Silmarillion that the only ones pursuing the Oath with all 200% of their being were Celegorm & Curufin, but I am now re-thinking that (thanks for challenging that perception!).
Seems none of the Feanorians were keen on it for a time, and it was only after Beren & Luthien came along that their 'passion' for the Oath was awoken from a deep rest so that they didn't have a choice.
This has given me some fruit for thought about each of the Feanorians' relationships with the Oath of Feanor, and exploring that in the future, and also the relationship of others such as Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Turgon & Thingol in regards to it. Along with the marriage vows of the likes of Thingol & Melian, and the Oath of Beren. So thanks for always being so brilliant as to inspire deeper thought and reflection on the Legendarium.
Heck, this video got me thinking about the nature of Oaths in Howard's Legendarium, and the exact nature of those oaths sworn by Conan & Zenobia, or Kull & Brule, along with Conan's many oaths of hatred against his enemies.
I haven't watched this yet (looking forward to it) but one thing I never understood was how truly evil the followers were in killing their kin. That oath Bound 7 and no one else. Yet the atrocities continued b/c of those who followed the 7. Especially the slaughter at Sirion when they killed even other Noldor who were the refugees of Nargothrond and Gondolin. That place held the last remnants of their people and they fell on them without mercy. Screw that noise!
The Oath of Feanor doesn't exclude anyone, not even Feanor, from the curse.
"whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
finding keepeth or afar casteth
a Silmaril. "
Feanor is the first that "hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh" so he is the first person the Oath is aimed against.
His son's are probably already doomed too, if we suppose the took on of the in hand any time before they were stolen.
They are also bound to the Oath until the End of the World (in space and time) and not even death can change that.
This mean they can not be reembodied by the Valar because they would deal death and woe to themselves and their kin.
Maedhros and Maglor are the only ones of them all able to fulfill their Oath: they kill the guards (hoarded/keepeth/taketh) and kill/woe themselves when they take their silmarils.
If Maglor didn't die and went to Mandos, one could suppose he would live forever in pain (good source of inspiration of his songs) until the end of the world. Alone, fading, guilty and in shame. In fact one could suppose Maglor death would happen at Day's End because he would be the last to have taken a Silmaril in hand.
Excellent analysis! I especially liked how you pointed out that the remaining two options were really the same, and the same as what Celegorm and Curufin chose.
Fascinating. I love your stuff; you've become my favorite Tolkien Tuber.
For me tied with The Red Book, seeing them collaborate as rare as it is for the later would delight me to no end. Near unspeakably high quality with these two.
Just what I needed! The feanorians don’t get enough press on CZcams! Awesome video! ❤
I always assumed that Maedhos the Tall was the correct one in his final debate with Maglor the mighty singer, but like Maglor, he doesn't want to do this but they have no real choice in the matter.
At 16:20, when you reference the _"Abhorsen_ Trilogy," the auto-generated subtitles transcribe this as the "abortion trilogy". That's pretty funny.
(The reference is to an Australian fantasy-novel series by Garth Nix, which is now up to six volumes. In most places it's known as the _Old Kingdom Chronicles,_ but in North America, it's known as the _Abhorsen Chronicles,_ after the title of book 3.)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garth_Nix
Ooof 😅 that is funny. I need to work harder on getting captions updated. --thanks for linking the Garth Nix info! I think I only read the first 4 of the series as a kid but I owned (still own) Sabriel and re-read it every couple of years.
Wow! Great start for this video. Lexi is still the best at self-deprecating humor.😂🤣😆🤣😂
Another GNG video already?! Christmas is early this year😍
I feel like the Darkness Feanor curaes himself to refers to the place where Morgoth was bound for 2 ages of the world outside the circle of the Halls of Iluvatar and Middle Earth both. This would have been a place Feanor would most likely been aware of since the Noldor were in Valinor when Morgoth was returned and unchained. There they would face the ultimate elf suffering of existing until the end of time with their sorrows without the redemption and return from the Halls of Mandos that is the normal doom of their kind.
26:00 technically did t all the sons already break their oath. They chose not to pursue the Silmaril while Beren & Luthein had it.
Interesting . . .
The best comment on CZcams.
As I read it, the oath doesn't stop them from giving away the Silmarils, either entirely, or on a permanent loan. Thus, having taken possession of them, the two brothers could have chosen to give them back. What the punishment of the Valar would have been remains an open question.
Yeeeeesssss! Always love a new video on the troublemaker Feanorians.
I never thought finding cat turds could be so interesting! 😁
Great video! Amazing quality!
I believe Maglor was right because Eru Iluvatar would have much rather preferred the repentance of the brothers, rather than forcing them to do evil until their end. They might still be punished in their current life for breaking the oath, but it is Eru's character to forgive the sincere repentance of a sinner.
Nice work thanks
Absolutely love the background!
Yey, another video! Awesome, please and thank you
Love this topic!
A brilliant and well-appreciated analysis!
Was breaking that Oath "tried and found wanting? Or found hard and not tried?" As a wise man once said about a related subject.
An excellent question, requiring more nuanced discrimination than Maedhros seemed to be able to muster by that point. A dose of Chesterton would probably have done him some good.
Yeah and don't.think I blame him for being worn out at that point!
I'd argue they *did* break the oath several times, but always in the name of self-preservation, or pride, or laziness, or other reprehensible motives. Breaking it for reasons of humility and goodness was never attempted - and that's the breaking that might have gained some mercy from Eru.
It was like asking Eru was never thought of as an option.
@@vickielittleton6373 Yeah, my thought was that getting Eru to annul the oath is the only thing that could possibly end well, so who cares if it's practically impossible? If you try and fail, you make nothing worse than it would have been if you had done literally anything else.
Well this is a long one... I can't wait to watch!
Keep up the good work! Loved the long video format
Wow all the parts and the conclusion were just so good and cool to listen to!
Great to hear you again! Love how the channel is growing! Love your insights! Got The Fall of Numenor for my bday. Will read over xmas break!
Thanks, Lexi!
Eru Bless Gondor, you've been spoiling us for content lately
Nice work
Great point about Mt. Taniquetil. I never made the connection of the Oath in Tirion and the proximity of the mountain home of Manwë and Varda until you mentioned the mountain.👍
The Silmarillion presents the Oath in paraphrase, so it may be more accurate to use the direct quotation of it in Annals of Aman sect. 134 (_Morgoth's Ring_ p. 112). After listing all the beings that might in any way withhold a Silmaril, the text says:
"... This swear we all:
death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
woe unto world's end! ..."
This version seems to leave virtually no wiggle room for "biding our time," because of the "ere Day's ending" part. At this rate it may be that even the Siege of Angband was a failure to keep the Oath. (I suppose "Day" at the time the Oath was sworn would mean a Tree-style Day, longer than the later Days of the Sun, but certainlly not hundreds of solar years.)
That detail aside, I agree that Maglor's third argument is morally correct, and, given that caveat, I think you've done an impressive job of tracing the detailed metaphysical working of the very anti-moral Oath. In particular I think you're right to emphasize that the Oath calls for wrath and vengeance in preference to actually regaining the Silmarils.
I'm looking forward to all of the magic in middle earth videos being up again. I think they are a fantastic set of videos to introduce people to the channel with. Like, when I show this channel to friends, I want to start them with that series.
Maglor and Maedhros choose two different approaches to hoping to end the oath. Maedhros holds the silmaril and ends his life holding it (forever?). Maglor travels to the sea and essentially casts it in the domain only attainable by the Vala, particularly Ulmo, though there are some Maia who could technically get it as well. Maglor boils down to appeasing the people invoked in the oath, while Maedhros tries to fulfill some of the content of the oath. It is interesting to note that we never hear of Maglor again (to my knowledge). I wonder if Ulmo had become too disgusted with the Silmaril to consider the attempt a friendly. The Silmaril might have burned Maglor, but at the same time, it has led to suffering for the Vala or at least the inhabitants of Valinor as well. Ulmo may have perceived it for what it was, namely putting the burden on someone else, and decided to end Maglor's life while at sea. Though this does not sound very Tolkienian or Valarian to me. They aren't kind to elves in the sense that they just end their lives. Instead, they pronounce doom on them and offer them some path to salvation, though it is rarely an obvious or easy path, as we saw in this video.
Great stuff.
Feanor and kin sounded a bit like they were deep into their addiction to the Silmarils.
"Huan is the goodest of boys". Best comment ever.
At oath in Middle Earth should be looked at from a premodern or even premedieval perspective. Their is a spiritual element to it that cannot be understood from a scientific perspective but which holds it more then someone simply saying they will do something. Breaking an oath, even a terrible one, must be seen as an act that will be terrible for the oath breaker.
This as ever was great stuff. i think the curse is designed to be unable to be held or broken, as the ring is doomed to be unable to be destroyed by good people. The curse of the silmarils is maybe Tolkien making us think morally at his best. Thanks GNG and keep up the good work.
The thing about the oath that gets to me is that Fëanor is essentially trying to order Eru around. He's swearing an oath about what *Eru* must do, if Fëanor and his sons fail to keep their oath. "Our word hear thou, Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
Darkness doom us if our deed faileth." I love me my Fëanorians, but it's blasphemous and full of hubris. Nothing in the world forces Eru to actually condemn them into the eternal darkness, no matter what they say, swear or believe. Elves can't give Eru orders like that. He has his own designs and judges things according to his own measurements, and deals out doom according to his own wisdom. The fact that they're evoking Eru to oversee an oath that is so reckless and immoral to begin with just makes it worse.
So, I've never actually believed that the Fëanorians were in any real danger of being cast into the eternal darkness. It was all in their head, because they frankly believed too much of themselves and didn't understand their real place in the universe. (Which stems from Fëanor's lack of faith in the Valar, and therefore, ultimately in Eru, who gave the Valar their authority.) I believe my understanding of the situation is confirmed by the fact that Fëanor, after his death, went to Mandos and was kept there for the rest of the duration of Arda Marred. So he *wasn't* cast into the eternal darkness, despite failing his oath. Also, the prophecy of Mandos says that Fëanor will return at the end of time and hand over the Silmarils to the Valar, which implies that he will emerge from his purgatory as a reformed character restored to the fellowship of Eru, the Valar and the Eruhíni. The prophecy might not be considered canon, but it does imply what Tolkien envisioned for the ultimate fate of this character. Which is, he didn't get to define his own metaphysical fate, Eru did, and Eru's thoughts and plans are above and beyond our thoughts and plans.
I haven't watched the video yet (will surely later!), so sorry if this was covered in the video.
By the way, I'm not necessarily trying to say that once Fëanor & co made that oath, they weren't bound to keep it - I'm saying that they didn't get to choose the consequences for their failure to keep it.
Superb. Brava.
Thanks!
Thank you so much, I really enjoy this long and deep approaches in this kind of things, I wish the video lasted longer.
Even though I did not quite fully understand why the Oath after each attempt exponentially further the Silmarils away, was it because it was a curse in itself up to the point of not being possible to ever be fulfilled? If so, what was the point of it when Fëanor made it?
Wow! That ended abruptly! 😂
Another great vid GNG, I have nothing creative to say I just want to help out with the algorithm
Enjoy your disquisitions, as always.
Technically, if one thinks about it, the curse is at work in the next age as well, though it is never so stated. As the grandchildren of Feänor, Elrond Elros, and Celebrimbor are haunted by the doom of the Valar, as is Galadriel. Celebrimbor makes the Rings of power to preserve the world, this design is subverted by the treachery of Sauron, and the Rings of power he made for healing and preservation are nearly the destruction of the remaining elves. In the end he is slain viciously. Galadriel and Elrond are both bound to diminishment. The last High King is slain, and their realms are faded legends to all but the most learned. Galadriel herself seems to have the words of the curse in mind when she proclaims that she will diminish but remain herself.
I always took the "everlasting darkness" bit sort of literally. Their disembodied souls existing in a sea of darkness forever. Being driven mad by the deprivation of the senses and of purpose, very much like in "Johnny Got His Gun".
This is what I am here for.
Since Maedhros was a ginger, he had no soul to take an Oath. So it was all a moot point for him imo.
I don't know about the Oath, but Maedhros hadn't have the legal right to take away the claim to the kingship from his brothers. Therefore Celebrimbor should have been High King.
So a little late to this party, but I wanted to share a different assessment.
"They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession."
My reading of this is such:
they swore an unbreakable oath to Eru under threat of the Everlasting Dark
that they would vengefully pursue
to the ends of the world
any manner of being that might exist until end of days
who would hold from them, take from them or keep from them a Silmaril.
The last line can be unpacked as "whoso should hold a Silmaril from their possession, take a Silmaril from their possession, or keep a Silmaril from their possession." Given the sentence structure, all three of "hold or take or keep" belong to the Fëanoreans' possession of them, each word serving as a substitute for the others. If someone picked up a Silmaril and handed it to them, I do not think that counts as a trespass against them under this language.
I can imagine that Eru had some notion how he wanted things to play out the moment the oath was taken, and turned the Fëanoreans into instruments to achieve his goals. They had committed themselves to ill action, and through those actions they helped bring about some of the most important and defining events of the age. Every time they strayed from their word he tried to push them back on course. Had they proven false at the end-which I actually see as the easier of the two choices, that on the face of it seemed less evil-it could have resulted in greater harm, even without the Fëanoreans input. For example, Eönwë brings the Silmarils back and the Valar now feel justified trying to extract their light to remake the trees, but Aulë* becomes enamoured with the craftsmanship as he tries to open them and instead jealously covets them, leading to a new rift among the Valar. The return of the Silmarils to Valinor could well have proved to be a poison Eru wished to avoid. In seeing the oath through despite both wishing to repent of it, the brothers take the jewels off the board, to the benefit of all. Obviously not how they would see it during their discussion, though Maedhros definitely saw folly in waging war with the Powers when fewer lives would be lost in the theft. Ultimately they chose to remain faithful to their covenant with the One. If every other virtue they had lost, at the very least they did not break troth, and in keeping faith so fulfilled their oath.
Because the oath WAS fulfilled: The two Silmarils they captured they actively dispossessed themselves of, probably the only two among them who would have done so once they had them. No one took them from them, nor is anyone holding or keeping them from them, so there is no one to seek vengeance against even supposing Maglor remained to end of days. Ulmo might know the location of Maglor's jewel, but as they are said to have gone to their long homes until the world is changed, he's not touching it. As for the third, it passed out of the purview of the oath with Eärendil and is so lost to them.
"But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven.
Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages **beyond the confines of the world**.
[. . .]
Now when first Vingilot was set to sail in the seas of heaven, it rose unlooked for, glittering and bright; and the people of Middle-earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and called it Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope. And when this new star was seen at evening, Maedhros spoke to Maglor his brother, and he said: ‘Surely that is a Silmaril that shines now in the West?’
And Maglor answered: ‘If it be truly the Silmaril which we saw cast into the sea that rises again by the power of the Valar, then let us be glad; for its glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure from all evil.’ "
So it passes beyond the edges of the world, which was the limit Fëanor set in the oath, and so is secure from its evil.
*Because it's always poor Aulë.
When feanor made the silmarils he pored his light into them they were hallowed when feanor made his oath and the doom was placed on feanor the valar placed a curse on themselves and all of arda feanor cannot touch them he cannot break them for the valar nor would his oath allow him as such all hope for healing the two trees were lost. This is an example of why the valar and feanor doomed each other and arda by placing paths curses and dooms
and D. Because we love you for it.
Huan is a very good boy. Just about the sadist and most noble character in the silmarilian. I hope huan is somehow a myar, so was not truly dead. Or all digs go to Valinor.
Your composition is atrocious, but I wholeheartedly agree. Huan was the best dog EVER. I doubt that Huan was miaiar, but I would like for him to be. We will just have to have faith that Huan had a just fate and that he was well rewarded for his valiant deeds. 😊
Consider doing a CTAs in videos like this at the halfway point and end. You will grow larger than ungoliant and shine like a silmaril in the night's before the sun and moon. People need the see this. LOVE YOU VIDEOS. Health and Success!
Sadly CTAs work very well.
@@jargpr123 CTA?
I just don’t believe that breaking their oaths would cause more harm than keeping it.
Doesn’t help we don’t know what they mean by consumed by the endless darkness. Maybe the void? Or anhilation?
Definitely not mean the destruction of Arda. Morgoth would have liked that and sworn and breaker an oath to Eru himself.
The essence of an oath is it can be broken. Or let your communication be yea? Yea. Or nay, nay.
Wonderful video! I don't feel like you're that far out there with your theory here. Even though Tolkien never articulated it, I guarantee you that Tolkien would have said "oh of course that's what I was going for. I just hadn't got around to saying it yet."
Either way I'll have to slam that like button like Maglor slamming that Silmaril into the sea!
Dooming oneself for what when you get right down to it are just shiny rocks. For immortal and nigh powerful elves, they certainly were extremely human at the end of the day.
So discussing from a mechanical standpoint:
Hmm, I think a greater oath can supercede a lesser in Tolkien iirc. So if they can go back to Valinor and think of a greater oath to swear in front of all the Valar and God, the old oath will be blocked until the new one is fulfilled.
Also despite it all I DONT think oaths are actually magic unless God allows them to be.
So what happens if you make a giant blood/honorary oath and also just as giant counteroath?
Is the person's life just utterly ruined since whatever they do will be an oathbreaker?
I don't have a good answer, but anything I consider as a possibility, I find terrifying.
I would guess that the first Oath would somehow impede the making of a truly contradictory 'counteroath;' someone might think they're swearing not to do what they swore to do (if you follow me😅) but somehow they'll be proven mistaken.
The "if" statement got me 😊 #dev
Upon the mention of the Feanoreans being forced to contemplate a war on the heavens themselves to reclaim the last silmaril, I got a mental image of the Noldor Kerbal Space Programming their way to 'vengence'! XD
That said, Vingilot 2.0 (the one Earendil is flying around) is described as a 1950s style retro rocket ship... Which presumably means the Elves of Aman have a space program already unless one supposes that Aule and his Maiar did the job somehow, which in itself has evidence against it based on the fact it's described as containing 'Elven glass' in its construction.
Also on the note of 'pursuing with wrath and vengence', one could suppose that they could try asking in a very angry tone in the hope that the Valar take the hint and return them, thus fulfilling the oath and avoiding a disaster. Might even be possible to clue them in through some sort of proxy?
I have always wondered what became of Maglor. He was elf immortal and did not suicide or die in battle. How long could he wander undiscovered.
I'm a greedy man. I'm eager to hear your next episode of Tolkienology.
I felt for Feanor’s wife whom he left behind. She lost her husband and all of her sons.
Would Maedhros and Maglor getting Silmarils fulfill THEIR oaths and allow them to return the Silmarils to Eonwe?