Triple-T
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2023
- #tyrellknifeworks
In today's Triple-T (tools, tip and talk) #128, we discuss how to upgrade a forge to be computer controlled for precise heat control!
K-Type Thermocouple: www.meter-depot.com/high-temp...
The rest of the parts for this build are listed in Forge Building Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
Maritime Knife Supply: maritimeknifesupply.ca/
My Website: www.tyrellknifeworks.com
My Instagram: / tyrellknifeworks
My Patreon: / tyrellknifeworks
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Abrasives by Brodbeck Ironworks: brodbeckironworks.com/
Amazon Lists of tools I use:
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General Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
Forging Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
Grinding/Sanding/Finishing Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
Leatherworking Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
Hydraulic Press Parts: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
2x72 Surface Grinder Parts: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni...
Video/Audio Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/tyrellkni... - Jak na to + styl
Any questions or topics I missed? Note, this build works just fine for venturi-style burners as well so don't think that you need a forced air forge. With a venturi style forge you don't need the second solenoid because you don't have a fan pushing air, the air is sucked in by the gas so lack of power is not dangerous.
Great video! Quick question. Would you need the bypass with a Venturi burner as well?
@@hamitup01 the Venturi at least doesn’t blow air into the forge when the gas is off, but you still get a large variance in the temp. The bypass keeps the temp more level. Thanks for watching.
What gauge wire did you use to wire it all together?
@@loganeaston5864 it was what I had on hand. I don’t know the gauge but it’s typical wire like from an extension cord.
Okay sounds good
Game changer. Thanks for sharing, as always
Glad it was helpful, Matthew. Thanks for watching.
Thank so much for what you've given back to the knife making community. Can't wait to buy these for my forge from your store.
It's an easy build. I can't believe I waited so long to do it! Thanks for watching, Cody!
Exactly what I’m looking for! Thank you for sharing Tyrell.
Awesome build!! A tip for future gas plumbing, to avoid the copper flare scenario, a black iron pipe union would eliminate that problem for you. Keep up the great content, you are inspiring for sure.
I had thought of that but couldn't find black pipe in 1/4" that would work with the plumbing I had. Thanks for watching, Aaron.
All I have left in this build is this part. I don’t understand how an iron pipe union helps. Heading to FW Webb in am. Any tips on what to buy?
What an awesome upgrade! Thanks again Dennis!
I’m happy it’s helpful. Thanks for watching, Stephen.
Amazing level of temp control, great vid easy to follow and understand.
I’m glad it was helpful, thanks for watching!
Thanks! Amazing! I'm planning to build a new forge. This is something to include!
I would make this a must-have on any future forge I build. Thanks for watching, Gerald.
So nice to have I bet especially low heat situations. When I make a new ribbon burner I will be up grading my setup like this. Thanks for the video. Been wanting to do this for a while now.
It's a really great add to any forge. This certainly works on venturi forges as well. Thanks for watching.
Outstanding Denise....
Really exciting stuff....also not a expensive upgrade that changes the game for soaking ..... Well done.
It’s a really easy build too! Thanks for watching, Dan!
Thank you for doing this video. I’ve been wanting to do this and your video will be a big help.
I wish I did it long ago myself! Thanks for watching
Thank you!! This was incredibly helpful.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.
Love it Dennis, glad you got it all dialed in and running smoothly. Definitely worth saving those copper puddles.
That’s for sure! Thanks for your help!
@@TyrellKnifeworks happy to help where I can 👍
I watched this about an hour ago and thought I picked up an error. But I'm in the UK and maybe things work differently on the other side of the pond. You state there is no difference between the two wires in AC. Well I think you are wrong. One is live one is neutral. You can get a sock from the live but not from the neutral. Therefore it is good practice to switch the live. If you switch the neutral the solenoid, light bulb or other device will always be live even when it is switched off. Great video BTW big fan of your blade work.
Well, there is technically a difference, but in these applications they are interchangeable. It doesn't matter which wire is wired to either the PID or the solenoid. We aren't using 220v like in the UK. Thanks for watching.
Oh, my friend, you couldn’t have picked a topic of greater interest to me! I have been thinking about adding temp control to my blast furnace.
I’m glad this one hit the mark! 😉. Thanks for watching
This is an idea ive been kickin around for a while now and just havent had the need for, until now. My primary forge is on its last legs, and im planning on doing a ribbon burner. I have all the parts to do it, and im gonna have to do a tutorial video on it, anyways so im probably gonna opt for the temp controlled version.
The extra solenoid really is a great idea. I know i coulda eventually figured it out, but thanks for doing it, and explaining it with diagrams and everything. Super helpful and an asset to the builders community.
I’m happy this helped you out. Thanks for watching!
I just did this to my forge a few months ago. However i did not think of the addition solenoid and the low fire mode which is brilliant. I will be adding the low fire mode to mine very soon. I already have all the parts so it won’t be a big deal. Thank you so much for doing this video and sharing this information.
I’m glad it helped you! Thanks for watching, Daniel.
Thank you . Great video
Thanks for checking it out!
Get out of my head, Denis! I was looking into temp controlled forges just yesterday and was wondering whether blowing straight air during down time would cancel out the benefits and then you drop this gem of a video with the gas bypass. So thanks to you and Rodney for sharing! 🙏
Great minds think alike! Thanks for watching, Sven!
Awesome video! Man ya got that thing dialed in now 👌
I've noticed once the forge is up to temp, it's closer to 10F within the set point. 😉. Thanks for watching, Matt!
@@TyrellKnifeworks looking forward to "Quicksilver" imma just gonna call it this until you know... I know... 😉 exciting!
Clever, cheap upgrade, I like it!👍👍
Thanks for taking a look!
Dude, this was a super cool video and you did a great job breaking this down Barney style! Definitely tempted to give this a try on my forced air forge now! LOL
Definitely give it a go. It’s a super easy build and you get amazing heat control. Thanks for watching, Jonathan.
Well this is cool and something I didn't know I needed!
You need it! 😜. If you do any heat treating in your forge, you need it. Thanks for watching.
Outstanding. This is far better than the anvil reviews lately everyone is making.
Strong content I will use immediately. Awesome job
It’s been really cool even to know the actual temp of my forge when forge welding. 👍. I wish I installed this ages ago. Thanks for watching
@@TyrellKnifeworks absolute home run. Especially for some of us not sure about the investment of an evenheat oven. Or similar.
Absolutely amazing alternative
I’ll probably have questions. But you covered the topic with great detail 💪🏻👍🏻
@@rescd3336 let me know what questions you have. 👍
This is amazing!
Thanks for checking it out!
Look at you with the technology! Cool
Thanks for checking out this new addition!
Muito bom ! Parabéns.
Obrigado por assistir!
I work in HVAC so I work with gas and controls. So my setup is similar to your except the second valve for continuous flame. (Which I’m definitely going to do). I did add extra stuff such as a switch for the blower so when I’m done with the forge I can leave it on to cool the forge down faster. Also have a magnetic main switch so if the power goes out in my area (which happens a lot) and I forget to shut the gas off and walk away, I don’t need to worry about gas flowing when the power comes back on because the main switch only works when power is on. Also an amp sensing switch so if the fan fails, the power to the PID is turned off. I added that because I have had a fan fail and didn’t notice right away and I had dragons breath like crazy and a lot of soothing in the forge and garage.
Thanks for the video..
Yeah, that is one issue, the fan failing. Honestly, I don't leave the shop when the forge is on so it's not really that big of a deal for me. I'd know right away if the fan died. I do like the idea of the magnetic switch though. Thanks for watching, Kelly.
This is genius. The scale formation and cool down from the blower never shutting down is the whole reason I haven’t installed a temp controller. Now I know how to solve the problem. Thanks for sharing this Denis.
Now you just need an igniter wired in so you can flip a switch and and the forge fires up. 😉
That’s an easy addition to just add a piezo-electric igniter. 😉. Thanks for watching, Erik!
Dennis, the mad scientist blacksmith.
A friend of mine tried to sell me on a similar idea. He wanted to use a laptop to control the setup, and I didn't want something that sensitive near my forge. Not to mention, I was using only solid fuel forge then and wasn't interested in switching to gas. Now that I have 2 gas and 1 solid fuel forges, I may modify one of the gas ones to this setup. Great idea.
I definitely wouldn't put a laptop near a forge, you'd probably fry it. These cheap PIDs are the way to go. Thanks for watching.
Awesome, Awesome, Awesome! Thanks for the credit! I’m going to order the S-type and give it a try. I like the bypass switch…going to add that as well. The forced air doesn’t over run because of the blower always running…mine being a Venturi type does over run almost as much as it drops. I generally set it for about 1475 to 1480 if I’m going for 1500 and it averages about 1500 with a 20 or so degree swing in either direction. Love the improvements! Can you share the settings on your Inkbird? I assume they’re pretty similar to mine since you’re only using one function of the PID, but still would like to see it. Thanks Dennis! It really helps beginners and hobbyists who would rather spend big $ on a grinder first and foremost and buy the heat treat oven later. I also used the same PID on my tempering oven…worked great there too. Much thanks to Redbeard Ops. on the tempering oven. One other tip…the box you used makes sense for your forge, but I used a plastic ammo can for mine since it’s a smaller forge and I need to be able to break it down and put it away when not in use.
The ammo can is actually bigger than this box. I did order the ammo can but its much bigger than I expected. This plastic box works better IMO and is slimmer. The only setting from the default on the Inkbird I changed was the type of thermocouple. Thanks for the help in this build!
@@TyrellKnifeworks The ammo can is bigger than needed, but when I’m not using it I put the power cord and the thermocouple inside for storage. It makes sense for my application but the box you used definitely makes more sense on your forge which is more of a permanent fixture. Thanks again for the credit!
I need to do this as well!!
I think you probably have most of the equipment already. I was surprised how cheap the PID and other pieces where.
You are really making me want to build your new swirl forge with a ribbon burner and the PID that Denis has here! I already have everything but the time....
@@jacobchristian1823 Time is always the toughest factor!
That's a seriously awesome setup. And here I thought I was done with my latest ribbon burner build.....
I can’t believe I waited so long to add this to my forge! It’s great fir so many things and it’s as accurate as my oven now. Thanks for checking it out!
Hi Denis, first of all I love your channel! Very informative, and has helped inspire me to start forging knives!! Not sure it is mentioned but S-type thermocouples only work properly with s-type wire (which I cannot find on Amazon). Also, given the price of credible s-type thermocouples it is probably best to buy a “legit” k-type from a pottery/kiln supply as they are only about $28 and ceramic insulated, k-type wire is also a lot easier to find and cheaper. Question: did you do any testing on where to place the thermocouple for best accuracy? I am thinking of placing two on opposite sides and controlling the higher side and just flipping the steel to heat evenly. Thanks again for all you do for the bladesmithing community on CZcams!!
I tested my thermocouple setup with an independent k-type hooked up to a meter and they were exactly the same. I put my TC exactly where I put my steel since that’s where I want to know the temp. Thanks for watching
Going to try this got the parts on the way
It’s a great upgrade. I wish I did it long ago.
@TyrellKnifeworks and thank you for all your posts on the roller mill it has help my uncle alot and your videos are great keep it up I can only hope to have the following you do some day
Thanks for the video. I want a setup like this but I didn't see the bypass switch listed on your Amazon store. Do you have a link for that?
It’s listed under “Forge Building Tools”. Here’s the link: amzn.to/47bhxL7. Thanks for watching
Wow, very interesting.
Thanks for checking it out!
@@TyrellKnifeworks are forced air forges better than none forced air? I have a 3 burner forge but isn't forced air. do you think the bypass valve to allow the 50% 100% gas would still work fine?
@@MrBill-ee4mr I do believe forced air forges are much better. It lets you control the air and gas separately. This is particularly useful when forge welding and you want a very fuel rich environment. This PID controller system works great on both forced air and naturally aspirated burners. A slight advantage when using the venturi style burners with the PID controller is that you don't need the second solenoid because you don't have to worry about power failures since you don't require a fan. You also don't have the same amount of air flowing into the forge on low gas mode since its the flow of gas that pulls in air. If all that made sense.
Hello. The 1999 degree limit on the PID controller is its factory setting, you can enter its settings and raise it higher. Thanks for the video
I don’t see any way to do this in settings. Elaborate on how please.
@@TyrellKnifeworks Or just use Celsius
@@jacobchristian1823 Or just use a $4 switch which is better anyway. I don't want to fiddle with setting the temps every time. MOST times I don't want a temp controlled forge because I'm forge welding so I just use the bypass switch.
That is awesome. How will this work with a venturi style burner?
It’ll work just fine with a Venturi. Since you don’t have a separate fan, the second solenoid isn’t needed. Thanks for watching.
The small amount of fiddling I've seen done with these, they're really quite good for heat treating simple carbon steels in that 800-850C range. it is the first time I've seen one with the ribbon burner though so that is kind of neat. I can't remember if you've covered it, but with the ribbon burners how many CFM do you usually need for a blower on forge and burner combo that size?
Watch my video on the ribbon burner forge build. This is a 440 cfm fan. Thanks for watching.
Hi Dennis, I'm building this right now (built the forge a few weeks ago). I had a couple questions: (1) I bought the SealSee K-Type Panel Mount TC that was in your amazon store but can't figure out where it goes; (2) in the wiring diagram, do all of the wires go into 9 and come out of terminal 9 and 10 on the PID or did you connect them all to each other with only a single wire going into the PID? (I suspect the latter but I'm dumb when it comes to this stuff); (3) what gauge wire are you using for everything besides the TC?; (4) The S-Type TC wire came with a bolt end - do I just cut it off and dig those wires out? to which terminals on the TC itself? Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure I don't screw this up haha. BIG THANKS from Sacramento my dude!
The TC goes into 3 and 4 on the PID. On the final wiring diagram, if you’re using the switch then use a wire nut and connect all the orange wires together where they converge on the diagram. Same with the red one. You can pretty much use any wire, buy a 2-prong extension cord and just cut the end off and use that. For the s-type TC, I used the wires that came with the PID and just cut the leads off and screwed them into the back of the TC. I hope that helps.
@@TyrellKnifeworks Thanks Dennis! That covers it besides this TC wire that came with the PID: one end is a bolt with a spinning nut... I'm guessing I just clip that off and fish out the two individual wires to connect to the TC or PID as it shows in the diagram. Anyways, thanks again and keep up the videos! I used your forge press video, your surface grinder attachment video, and your knife vise video to build my own of each. Invaluable dude. Cheers
Do a the needle valve bypass require soldering?
No soldering required, these are pressure fit connections. Make sure you test everything after connecting though with soapy water. I’m glad this helped you out. Thanks for watching.
When there is no bypass (pilot light essentially) why not wire the fan the the SSR as well? Are the temperature swings still too severe? Either way the bypass will probably get you the closest +/- to the set point. Also have you tried running the auto calibrate on the PID? That might help dial it in a bit more.
The fan has a 2-4 second start up so it would be too dangerous to pipe in gas for 4 seconds until the fan really starts up. Right now after the forge is at temp, the swing is about 10F. You can't really get much better than that. 😉
Would this work for heat treating for Hardening? A lot cheaper than a proper heat treat oven
You would need to account for any hot spots in your forge. If you used a steel tube to even out the heat, this would work very well in place of a heat treat oven. I'm not sure I'd try doing stainless steel heat treating this way but it would probably work. Thanks for watching, Robert.
Denis, you continue to complicate my life! This is clearly something I should build into my new Housemade forge when it arrives next week. Can we expect some recommendations from you on temps to dial in for special projects like Cumai? Seems like you're saying to run it with the bypass when forge welding damascus so it's wide open.
On future builds I'll be telling people know the temps I forge at. For CuMai, running it at about 1800-1850 is optimal, even up to 1900 is fine. Thanks for watching, Bryson!
awesome video. this instantly got a lot higher on my priority list. any reason why you didn't go with a forge-welding capable P&ID? was it signficantly more expensive?
I just couldn't find a cheap PID with a set point and honestly you don't need it. When forge welding, you want your forge as hot as it can get usually. The $4 bypass switch is better IMO.
@@TyrellKnifeworks fair enough. i love the fuel bypass move too.. very clever. looking forward to getting this in my forge now.
@@TyrellKnifeworks one more question for you - when at a temp higher than the PID can handle, does it still display what temp you're at (just not control it) or does it show an error? i'd love to be able to see what temp i'm at those high temps even if i can't control the temperature...
@@thebogamin it still shows the temp. If you have it set on Celsius then your set point can be 1999C which you’ll never reach in a forge.
@@TyrellKnifeworks so then if that's the case, why would you need the full throttle bypass?
I appreciate your responses... i have all the pieces on the workbench, just trying to make sure i have the blueprint in my head laid out appropriately. this is just the last hurdle that i wanted to fully understand.
Does this setup work just as well with a venturi burner as well?
Yup, just as well… A little better actually because the air is reduced as well when the gas reduces. And you don’t need the second solenoid because you have no powered fan. Thanks for watching!
This was my question, thanks for answering it! Great video.@@TyrellKnifeworks
Hey there Dennis, I finished up the forge build and this PID build! I've been forge welding this last week (successfully) and I had a couple questions about your gas level when making damascus or forge welding: is your needle valve opened up all the way? I have the air gate open about half-wayish(?) and once I get the gas going fast enough to get to 2200, the valve is opened up all the way and I have to actually turn the red dial on the regulator hose up every 15-ish minutes so that the PSI doesn't bottom out... I try and keep the PSI around 1 or 2.
Basically I have to turn it up at the reg hose once I notice the temp dip below 2000. I mean, it's working... but I'm 2 tanks of propane down and just over halfway done with a basic mosaic billet. Is this normal? Sorry to bother you! I know you have better things to do. I'm just a little freaked out that I'm doing something wrong by missing something simple. Anyways, thanks as always for the great videos and info :-)
You can't really compare to my setup if you have different orifice sizes feeding the gas into the system. The PSI is entirely dependent on that since all about back pressure. Plus I have no idea how long your forging sessions are.. "halfway done with a basic mosaic billet" doesn't tell me very much. First thing you should do is get a large propane tank. The small ones have such variability depending on how much gas is in them plus they freeze up easily. Get yourself a 100 lbs tank.
@@TyrellKnifeworks Ok thanks! Yeah, all my sizes are same as yours (built according to your specs in the videos) but I think you actually solved it: tanks are freezing up. Just noticed I still have propane in all of them... They just quit after they get too cold I guess. Never happened to me before so I wasn't aware it was a thing. Thanks again!!!
That's a really interesting design. Would it be possible to throttle down the gas proportionally to how close to the target temperature the thermocouple is to smooth out the temperature change? I'm very interested in playing with this design to see how precise I can get it on my T burner setup. What do you reckon the limitations of this are for heat treatment compared to a proper heat treat oven?
The PID has a lot of configuration options you can play with. Right now I have it so it will hold +/-5F from the set point. As long as you use a pipe or something to diffuse the heat a bit, it should be very comparable to an oven. Just make sure you heat up your forge fully before you start heat treating like this. Thanks for watching, Matthew.
If you replace that topmost right angle fitting with a T fitting instead then you could run the bypass back into that fitting. It would use one less fitting that way. I really like this idea though and I may have to do this for my forge one of these days. I have a two burner forge though so maybe my "bypass" would just be to have one burner always going and control the other one but I'll have to do some tests and see.
I think you should look again, the bypass already goes back into the main fitting. Thanks for watching.
Jeff, saw your question and wondered if anybody would mention it. Tyrell, look at 14:50 mark and see the "Tee" just above the solenoid, and the "90°" just above. If the "90" where replaced with the Tee, then pipe the bypass valve to the Tee fitting the "90" would be eliminated and make a slightly cleaner installation.
Tyell, you did a GREAT job with your videos - all of them as well as the forge series. Got me wanting to make a ribbon burner forge now:)
@@kenh8979 but you guys aren’t seeing what’s a male vs female fitting. I needed a coupling so I just used a 90. Plus you have to have the compression fittings there so you can plumb it.
@@TyrellKnifeworks im having trouble figuring out what size compression fittings and copper tube to use. Im thinking about drilling and tapping another hole in my 2" pipe and plumbing the bypass into it.
@@shereecanida6407yeah that would work.
Have you tried to do stainless in this? Awesome video!
You mean heat treat stainless? No, I have an oven for that. I have used it for forging stainless Damascus though. Thanks for watching, Garrett.
@@TyrellKnifeworks yep I’m hoping to build a forge like yours in the hopes of heat treating stainless steel. I figure I could build a really nice forge for $2000…. Maybe if I added a salt bath I could achieve the temperature control necessary? Thanks for getting back to me appreciate your content!
@@garrettshadbolt6443$2000 is a crazy price for a forge, you should be able to make one for a third of that. If you have $1k to spend, just buy an Apollo forge from Housemade.us.
@@TyrellKnifeworks I meant to use as a forge and a heat treating oven, trying to get around buying a heat treating oven.
@@TyrellKnifeworksI meant to replace a heat treating oven. They seem to be pretty pricy.
Hallo Denys. Sehr gutes Video, aber ist es nicht einfacher den pid Kontroler auf Celsius zu betreiben und sich den Beipass zu ersparen? Der Pid Kontroler kann 1300 grad C steuern.
Liebe Grüße Rolf
Dann muss ich alles in Celsius rechnen. Wenn Sie an Farenheit gewöhnt sind, ist das ein Schmerz im Arsch. 😉
Does this only work with a forced air forge? Not sure if you addressed that maybe I missed that...
Yes, it works just fine for Venturi burners. Slightly better actually because controlling the gas level also controls the air intake plus you don’t need the second solenoid because there’s no fan. Thanks for watching.
Awesome I loved seeing this video I watch all your videos this is very helpful because as much as I would love ht oven far out of my price range. All your videos are great and your work is amazing love seeing how far your work has come
If you say you’re not interested in controlling the temperature while forge welding, then what was the point in setting up a temperature control on your forge?
For heat treating and doing non ferrous metals. When I’m forge welding I have the forge running full tilt around 2300F. I don’t need it to maintain temp.
Thanks for sharing your experience! The question is (special for heat treating oven) how do you make sure of the thermocouple accuracy? Specialy on a temperature above 1000C for stainless steel heat treating! Thanks again!
The best way is to get another thermocouple attached to a meter. I also bought a k type thermocouple and tested it and both were reading the same temp. 👍. Thanks for watching
🤘🏼🔥
Thanks for watching!
That’s hot
Yes it certainly is, Steve! Thanks for watching.
عالی بود
ممنون از ملاحظه تان!
This similar to Brian 😅House’s
You mean his is similar to mine. 😉 🤣. Thanks for watching.
I am definitely going to use your improvements on my next forge. Already bought one of Brian’s ribbon burners. Now I need to decide on Brian’s forge or copy the one you built.
I find your videos very inspiring.
Thanks
Tom
@@tek9102 The Apollo is a great forge. Its just up to you if you want to build it or buy it. This PID controller will work great with the Apollo though.
Добавь радиатор на термопару, чтобы отвести чать температуры.
Вы имели в виду переключатель реле? У него уже есть радиатор. Однако добавлять один к термопаре не имеет смысла. Спасибо за просмотр.
@@TyrellKnifeworks Я имел в виду датчик температуры, на него установить радиатор чтобы он отбирал часть температуры. В результате он будет показывать температуру меньше чем есть.
This seems like an inexpensive way to bypass the need for a heat treat oven. Yes the oven is more accurate, but for someone starting out, it's a lot cheaper than a $1500 oven.
I have the forge dialed in to about the same accuracy. What the heat treat oven has in very even heat. You’ll definitely need a steel tube in the forge to even out the heat. I agree though, it delays the need for an oven. Thanks for watching
I'm an industrial tech, so this explanation was painful, but I understand people don't actually know this stuff.
Thanks for watching
Dude that's bad to the bone ,
Thanks for taking a look!