Top 5 Reasons DC20 Is Better
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- DC20 is a TTRPG from the mind of The Dungeon Coach that is geared towards those who love D&D 5e, pathfinder and other similar fantasy table top games. Its better than i ever imagined and I seriously believe it has endless potential for casual gamers and min-maxers alike. Check out the kickstarter so we can get this thing finished and released even quicker!
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DC20 KICKSTARTER: www.kickstarter.com/projects/...
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MERCH STORE: www.etsy.com/shop/SlowYourRol... - Zábava
DC20 is the Fantasy TTRPG for 2025 ❤
We couldn't agree more!
Nope. At least not for me.
Secrect reason #7 Rolling high matters.
ie fighting a goblin you know has a 12 AC and you roll and 18 in the die.
5e - uh yeah i hit & roll for dmg (which could be disappointing)
DC20 - 18 plus my bonus is 22, 10 over target means doing 2 extra dmg (DC20 weapons do base dmg ussually around 2)
So much more exciting, and that was just one roll.
Yes!!! Please add to the list because there are so many more reasons haha
Aren't these optional rules from older editions?
Isn't it the same as rolling a hit and then rolling high in the damage die? It is, isn't it? Just, more complex math.
@@eoris12how is basic addition “more complex” math. It isn’t like you are doing a differential equation to calculate damage.
@@eoris12 They merged the damage die with the to-hit die (similarly to how MCDM removed to-hit die, which is sadly not as appealing to me). Consequentially the damage is consistent (your weapon dictates the exact number) and rewards rolling high (going over enemy defence by 5 increases damage by 1).
It's a bit faster and less complex imho
"If you know, you know" and if you don't, then you should; and you ought to now! ;-D
🤣
Thank you for promoting this great system!! Lets go DC20! 💪 I definitely hope the kickstarter gives it enough visibility to shine like other system we’ve seen.
Truly our thoughts as well. DC20 is exactly what I'd hope DND would evolve into personally
I 100% used the Action Points AND Grit Points when a new Sorcerer player wanted to break his friend free from demonically cursed armor. It was an EPIC moment in the game!
I saw you explain it under another video. Sounded fucking epic, man!
It’s hard to take another edition of D&D seriously with DC20 on the horizon.
What a huge and true statement.
5.5 will have between 100x and 1000x the sales and player base of DC20. Your statement is ridiculous.
@@hawkname1234
I guess you're a business executive and not a gamer?
I was planning on getting the new edition to at least try it out. Now, I am not so sure. DC20 seems to be the best direction for my gaming group.
@@elbrucesare TTRPG franchises not created by businesses?
4e's warlord: what am I, chopped liver?
Sounds a lot like pAthfinder 2e, but they've empowered the players even more. Might make it a PITA for the DM to run.
There are definitely some big inspirations from PF, and several DND editions. It's the hybrid of all good things rolled into 1 lol.
I love the design goals you've highlighted in this video, as they are definitely targeting a lot of the DnD design that drives me up the wall. I really want to jump in and kickstart this, but I just can't right now. Hopefully i can check it out once it's published.
It's the thought that counts my friend! Coach is developing this game for people like you anyway! 🩵
Well said, all points I agree with. I hope allot of people switch and have more fun at the table with DC20
Thank you I appreciate it! I hope people at least give it a shot because it's awesome lol.
I've only ever played 5e and haven't been into ttrpgs for the vast majority of my life. DC20 is the first ttrpg that I've been this invested in. I just like it a lot. It's so customizable.
I totally agree. It's not only extremely customizable, but it's also not super complicated. It's perfectly on that scale imo.
@@SlowYourRole20 the first thing I did when I got my hands on the alpha was remake my 5e monk, and the character is so much closer to what I want them to be
All systems are customizable. Homebrew and house rules are as old as TTRPGs, it is only limited by our imagination.
okay pedantic
@@marcusjones6098 I have found this exact thing in remaking a ranger and others as well.
Dungeon Coach’s time in Pathfinder2e play paid off in spades as the action point system and teamwork are key components of that system. Definitely going to check it out and pick it up when it is published.
To be fair, it seams very much inspired by Level Up Advanced 5th Edition is which happens to bethe best D&D version I've GMed by far. None of my players wants to go back. Every class has been reworked, and all martial classes have access to maneuvers. Not to mention you choose your ancestry, with their gift. Then your culture, background, and destiny. Teamwork is rewarded, nothing is overpowered and they have an extra class called the Martial, which is a support non casting class.
That definitely has similarities. Thanks for bringing it up, I'll look into that!
Thanks for sharing, this sounds like the kind of system I'd enjoy, I like flexibility and customization.
I will add, the D&D 3.5 expansion material did introduce similar mechanics to how you were describing action points (the Factotum), Stamina Points/Techniques (Tome of Battle), and a pool-based casting system (3.5 psionics were pool-based). I've played around with all of them and they're a lot of fun, they just NEED to have their balance and scaling carefully tuned, otherwise they'll break in one direction or the other.
Yes that is totally true. We have paid very close attention to that balance and things are going very well with it this far.
Great point
I love love love how DC20 makes spellcasters so much cooler, and also adds some more utility to high agility characters.
My first character ever is going to be a high agility sorcerer with a homebrew subclass so it works perfectly under this system and I cannot wait.
I was going to wait until it was out and see then but I had to contribute to the patreon after how excited this made me feel. I still can't believe it's basically at £1,000,000 raised!
I know! The success on Kickstarter was only a hopeful unlikely dream to have reached a million. I'm so excited.
*DC20 will be the first RPG book I've ever bought.*
Well it's a good choice 😆
Excellent Video Sir. Well done.
Thank ya so dang much.
I’m still waiting with bated breath for the DC20 system to gain momentum. I’ve checked out Daggerheart and MCDM; they just don’t quite hit the mark for me personally.
Yet, I just don’t see many DnD channels/podcasts talking about it. Hopefully that changes and soon.
Totally agree my friend. DC20 is everything I want in ttrpg.
It's likely to be just another Fantasy Heartbreaker. The new ones all come from CZcams influencers who have been happy to ride the coattails WotC provides them for free, but now they are all competing with each other for market share. So they will all be fragmented.
@@hawkname1234 I can understand the pessimism for sure. But I also believe the more games out there, the more likely every table can find one that works for them.
And capitalism will ensure that those with good qualities will rise to the top; instead of the industry GIANT choosing who they break bread with.
And don’t get me wrong, I’ve ran DnD for 30+ years. I don’t hate WotC. But they aren’t checking my boxes either. So I celebrate anyone who steps up to take a stab at mediocrity (AC 40), and tries to show ppl a different path forward.
Great video! I liked and subscribed. Good to meet you, "Slow Your Role."
I have yet to watch others of your videos, but I hope, like Dungeon Coach, I find you to be level-headed about WoTC and a positive person in general. I have unsubscribed and blocked SOOO many D&D CZcamsrs who just can not get past vengeful corporate reviewing, that it was refreshing to watch you.
I believe there should be room for all TTRPGs at the table, including D&D, and it appears you agree. DC20 appears as if it may be a main one at mine.
(Player since 1979)
I love that and those are all great takes from a ttrpg veteran. Appreciate the feedback immensely my friend.
I have also unsubbed and blocked most of the TTRPG CZcamsrs who lied (repeatedly) about WotC. But I think Dungeon Coach was among them. Maybe I unsubbed bc it was clear his channel was going to become all about his game, and not the game I play.
The game system that I have developed combines the mana pool and stamina ideas, such that martial and caster classes use the same resource to cast spells or perform combat maneuvers. Cool to hear how DC20 addresses "spell slots" and martial resources.
That actually sounds awesome and I'm pretty curious about that!
Gogo DC20 💜
DC20 is amazing! It is my new game of choice!
I completely agree bro! And it's only gonna get better!
After playing a martial in DC20, its hard to want to go back to 5e combat
Yes! This is so stinking true.
The martial-caster divide is real!
Seems like every few years in TTRPGs somebody gets the idea we should replace all these discrete choices with a bunch of point tracking (Actions, Stamina, Spell Points), and then a little while later somebody else come along with the notion that all this book keeping is a drag at the table and we should simplify it to you can do this or this, and you can do this other thing once per time period. I've been down that road a few times myself.
the Help action helps with narrative combat and skill checks, I can imagine some great cinematic moments that will be played. Quickie, a +1d8 descending to d6 and d4 means everyone can pile in!
Yes, and it makes playing support characters feel like there is always something you can do.
I’m backer #109
That's sick bro let's go!!!
I’m looking forward to trying it. I’m confident that I’ll like the system, but I foresee a risk in play testing. My sense is that despite the dynamic character creation, the skill and combat checks are going to get too same-y after repeated plays. When I hear that you can make an intelligent barbarian, that can use intelligence tactically in combat, then might use intelligence to leverage tools to break open a door, then use intelligence to gain advantages in social situations….. you see where I’m going. I’m basing this on just what I’ve seen on other videos. I hope I’m wrong and that DC20 becomes a great success.
I totally get this. The good news is, the only thing an intelligent barbarian will be good at DUE to having high intelligence is attack rolls, and intelligence related skills. NOT things like grappling, or anything that should deal with Might. A Might barbarian will be able to use heavier weapons, have more health, be better at grappling, throwing, and anything else that's might appropriate. Long story short... It just works like you want it to 😉
So thats why squidwart doesn't use the technique! As a bard he would have to multiclass into a martial first.
Omg... It makes so much sense now
I am with you on DC20. I have backed most of the big players in the new system explosion of this year. And though I am still deeply interested in them, the bete DC20 actually has impressed me as being the lead horse.
Love to hear this. Seeing what the team and Alan are doing behind the scenes is truly inspiring. They have all made me even more grateful to contribute to this thing. I'm literally so happy to see it's overwhelming success on Kickstarter.
One additional thing I like is the "5" rule for scaling die roll effects. So much to like!
Absolutely yes. If I had another point it most likely would've been that tbh.
I think this will be a really fun system to run!
It totally is! I believe you will love it!
5e actualy does have a variant rule for basicaly using mana, just no one wants to deal with that headache
Yeah I've looked into that and it is indeed a bit of a headache. The system is much easier when it's built with that as the default thankfully.
Very interesting, though I just hope there are still clear and reliable differences between 'classes'.
the classes are alternatively distinct
I promise there still are very big differences between classes, and even at level one.
Are the differences mostly flavor or do they actually serve different roles in the party. Are some classes importantly better at some things than others?
@@tylerthorstrom4100 Good question. I love the idea but I fear blending bloat, like the classes start basically being able to do the same things. Their abilities need to stay distinct or classes won't even matter
I’m super excited for DC 20!
I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain spell slots to new players
Literally bro. Like I get it, it's a way to do it that does work and is decently balanced but this is so much more intuitive and CREATIVE. This allows for awesome creativity in casting.
I think the biggest struggle this will have is it sounds so different from 5e/OSR that conversions of existing content will be a chore. Most of the other Not D&D options I am seeing are close enough to something else that there is already lots of resources available. Maybe being close to PF2E it can benefit from those adventures/worldbooks.
Totally get this. Thankfully one of the design goals for DC20 is to make monsters and encounters SUPER easy to make even from scratch. There is very minimal effort needed to make awesome creative monsters, encounters, and even social and exploration stuff.
Also, one of the Kickstarter tiers include a conversion system that will certainly become available widely at some point.
DC20 is the D&D 6th Edition we all wanted!
Couldn't agree more.
Couldnt disagree more.
You don't speak for us all. Why can't TTRPG people just be honest?
@@hawkname1234 I legally speak for everyone.
It's very impressive work, but no system fit all people.
I've backed the Kickstarter (got in on the Early Bird time frame :) , and one this I would be SUPER excited about is the way multiclassing sounds in DC20.
Oh yeah. I feel that multiclassing will be/is the best of any system tbh.
There's a lot of good ideas in DC20 and it very impressive work by The Dungeon Coach, but the fun thing is that the 5 things you mention is some of the think that i'm not so keen on. Don't mind the mana points that much, but think the other things make the system unnecessary complex.
The things that I like the most is probably only one roll for hit and damage, reduces number of hp complained to D&D and Pathfinder, fewer ability score and only the bonus as the score, that you have fewer spells but each spell can do more things and the elegant multiclass rules.
I do love those things as well for sure. Especially the rework of spells and how flexible each one can be.
mana-pool and 5e comparison.
The main reason 5e uses spell slots
is because 3 and 3.5 used spell slots
4e didn't and it was popular to hate on 4e.
5e has a variant rule to switch to mana-pool for a reason.
It's popular to hate on 4e because it's not what the D&D player base wanted. As some people have said, it was fine as a TTRPG. It did not feel like D&D.
@@hawkname1234 That was one of the reasons, but not the only one.
The 3 common reasons are:
- It's very (lengthy) combat-focussed. A fair criticism.
- It's (not 'effectively a reprint of the 3.5-phb' therefore) not what "the player base wanted" The common retelling, partially true I think my value-judgement on this one is pretty clear,
- To fit in, it was the popular-punching-bag opinion. It is a fact this was a thing, I was there. "Ow, you're playing 4e. You're not a _real_ D&D player" Standard gate-keep stuff the second anything more newcomer-friendly comes along. (one of, if not the, worst aspects of most nerd-fandoms)
No amount of retroactively claiming "It was always only #2" will change this.
Doesn't change a thing about:
5e has both 'spell slots' (PHB) and 'mana pool' (DMG288: "spell points") options.
The reason the former is the one that made it to the PHB, is more based in 'what gets more support from those who dunked on 4e' than in 'what works better'.
A better comparison would be Pathfinder 2e, maybe you haven't play the system but the Dungeon Coach took a lot of the features that make Pf2e great and use it for his game
Oh yeah, lots of good pathfinder influence, you are definitely right.
Excellent takes excited to see the dc20 content moving forward!
You and me both!
Ancestry rules make every characyer the same, striping aeay the uniquenes of having an ancestry. If its just bonuses you can pick and choose from a laundry list , then they become just bonuses. Im not sure...
Everyone I have played with and community feedback as a whole suggests the exact opposite. The way it's handled is like you can choose AN ancestry that feels very much like you want it too... OR you can customize and pick the flavor yourself.
Superb video! I 100% agree with all your points!
Awesome, thank you so much.
Let’s go DC20!!
How resource heavy is the system? Are many abilities uses/long rest or dependent on the stamina or mana points? That's my main gripe wit 5e that it's balanced around resource attrition rather than just action economy.
The vast majority of character abilities will be able to be performed A LOT throughout a day. There are a few things that are "reset on long rest" kinda things but they are fewer than 5e I'D say.
Please do more videos on DC20. I’m subscribing in good faith that you will
We plan to do exactly that. Thank you for your faith in us!
@@SlowYourRole20 You have made me very happy 😊
All of this has been done before; GURPS in 1986 and Hero System in 1990 come to mind.
Yeah, the system is built using many enjoyable concepts from other games. Those concepts are expanded on and made even better using dc20 in most cases. Also, to be fair, there's just a lot more details that are not included in this video.
Would you say that turns in combat take longer than in 5e because the players have more options to consider?
(Surprisingly) Definitely not! Typically I see players are MUCH more engaged in combat in general and excited to just do something. So even though they have tons of options, they quickly decide one out of the narrative and excitement lol.
@@SlowYourRole20 That sounds unlikely. You expect us to believe that massively increasing the number of options has, for the first time in the universe, caused people to make decisions faster? C'mon man. Have some integrity.
@@hawkname1234 Depends why it was taking them time to make those decisions. Sometimes not having the option you really want available is the issue. If you can look over more options and see what you want as an option you can just choose it. Instead of trying to squeeze that out of lesser choices that don't quite do what you want.
@hawkname1234
No. You just do each thing you want in a turn, or burn many actions into a single thing you want to succeed.
It has the same number of actions as base 5e. Action, move, bonus, reaction. 1 action point for each, but there so far aren't things like actions leading to 3 separate attacks to stretch those actions out to take more time
Happens with lots of spells as well
@@jacksonhorrocks4281 I was more thinking of the number of action options to consider spending your points on. More options to go through and evaluate separately generally takes more time.
Have they mentioned if there will be VTT integration?
Yes! There is already a team working on digital content such as that and other things!
I just like 5e the way it is. I don't need anything else.
That is completely fair and actually great! If 5e scrathes the dnd experience itch for you then stick with it. The only reason we do this is to scratch that itch anyway.
Same here Dunybrook, its not perfect but its exhausting watching everyone ripping on a great system. DC20 looks fine but for every problem it fixes, it creates its own. There is no best system, just the one you like the most.
Martials having spell like abilities is literally what 4e is an nobody wanted
I actually think 4e is unnecessarily hated. It's not too bad, but to be fair the way martials are handled IS different. They don't feel like spellcasters in DC20, it just feels like you are an actually competent and skilled martial adventurer.
I had the same thought. That, and attacking with your 2 handed warhammer using intelligence.
So all martials are battle masters from 5e and all casters are sorcerers from 5e, and it includes variant races from ... 5e...idk. im sure it's more complex than that but im not exactly sold on this being ground breaking based on these 5 points. Action points over "action/bonus action" is a plus but also not exactly new amongst table top systems. Im not really seeing a huge draw to engage with this over something else.
That's totally fair, I mean it is exclusively your choice what to enjoy. There are many things that make this system more than what I've highlighted too though. Every spellcaster feels very unique and can do more than in 5e. They do not all feel like sorcerers... Not even the sorcerer because it feels much more versatile than in 5e.
Also all the stuff you want from the class fantasy of your character is largely unlocked at level 1 and 2 instead of having to wait until you're like level 15 to have all the features you want from your class. There are many things that make it my favorite, but I get you.
Spell slots are at the same time a simplified yet needlessly complex version of a mana system. I like mana points better. But do spell levels still exist in this game? Or are spells only restricted by the caster's mana capacity?
That's a really good question! The game has natural casting limits based on how characters work in general.
- Characters have a mana spend limit that is based largely on the level.of the character.
- MOST (but not all) spells have a base cast that isn't that costly in mana but can be empowered, changed, or enhanced by spending more.
- THERE WILL BE Spells that are just down right expensive however. Spells similar to Wish from 5e, or disintegrate and stuff that IS meant to be an insane single cast epic moment type of thing.
Well said!!!!
Thank you! And again, great video on your part too!
I'm really intrigued by DC20, but I think we still miss the buy-in for GMs.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by this?
@@SlowYourRole20 Basically, everything we know for now about DC20 is all player-centric stuff (more actions, cooler actions, more customization etc.). But, if I was a DM who's looking for a new system, what would be in for ME to take DC20 in consideration? Will combat encounters be a nightmare to balance? Will there be a negogiation system for when the PCs are trying to bribe/persuade/intimidate an NPC or will I need to make it up? Will adventures be aeasy to design and prep for? Will there be broken magic items? Basically, the big question for me (basically the forever GM of my group) is: Will this game also be fun for me to run?
I'll definitely check it out for the original design thinking. Though... increasing versatility also increases complexity, which makes systems harder on newer and more casual players. I understand that you're an evangelist and not an objective analyst, but if you were you would be obligated to talk about how increasing versatility doesn't make a game better, it moves the complexity/ease of learning slider.
As part of the development team I in fact am one of the most officially analytical people in regards to DC20. But that's not the type of content the video was designed for.
However, you ARE correct. Thankfully DC20 does not force players into making anything overly complex. Character creation is easier than 5e, you can choose a default weapon, class, turn strategy and ancestry and enjoy the game fully. OR you can customize all those things and play like a capn "crunch," min-max, mastermind.
So my question is what differentiates DC20 from Pathfinder 2e? PF2 has a lot of the same high points: custom ancestries, action point system, unique actions, good balance, a focus on team play, etc. Granted, the mana and stamina pool systems sound interesting, but that wouldn't be enough to entice my players to make the jump to a new system when they're so invested in PF2.
Totally get that, and to be clear I haven't played pf2e, but I'm told it's a bit complex and crunchy and DC20 comparatively is less crunchy than 5e imo.
@@SlowYourRole20 I would highly recommend giving it a read. It isn’t as complex as you might have been led to believe. 5e is not a complex system by design. The designers want the DM to make up rulings on the spot to fill in holes in their rules. PF2 has official rules for most everything, but it’s pretty easy to just make up a ruling once you understand the universal DC system. Plus, all of the game rules and content is free on Archives of Nethys. So you don’t even have to buy a book unless you want the art/want to support the company
@@manwithnoname4346 "5e is not a complex system by design." is an incorrect statement. Just because something is streamlined doesn't mean it isn't or cannot be complex.
@@SlowYourRole20 that comment seems to be a contradiction. A system where you are adding stamina (essentially mana points) so that every class will have either stamina or mana points or both is inherently more crunchy.
Dungeon Coach soured me a LONG time ago from his channel constantly. And I really don't care for how in everything I've seen from him over the years is talking about how awful D&D is. The videos I've watched of his offered things that weren't good, not balanced, or well thought out (like is armor system- even Mr Rhex in the video said - yeah- that's not good). Or his Mana Point video- Spell Slots are not hard to understand. Is a mana pool better? IMO yes. But, that doesn't make it hard to understand or use.
Also, the amount of wrong information he gives out in his videos to support his points is just another reason I don't watch his videos (I did watch some of the DC20 videos, but have the same issues as before) anymore and probably won't be supporting this project.
I wonder if the same crowd that hated 4E for borrowing CRPG mechanisms will love this for exactly the same reason.
Reminds me of lvlup advance 5e almost
I'm gonna have to look more into all these systems y'all are recommending!
Correction! Stamina automatically fills outside of combat.
This is definitely true. If I implied otherwise it was unintentional.
@@SlowYourRole20 You'd said that Stamina was not an out of combat resource.
@@King_Hodop Is Stamina used outside of combat or does it only regenerate outside, regeneration wouldn't make it an outside of combat resource.
@@jnewgot regeneration. It can still be used is my point.
@@King_Hodop How is Stanima used outside of combat? Regeneration of stamina isn't a resource use unless you're somehow regenerating stamina by depleting it.
The fact that these are the top 5 key features indicates to me that DC20 isn't interested in making any of the fundamental structural changes necessary to make a D&D-based TTRPG properly work. For example, no mention of lowering the power level progression or evening out resource availability across various timescales.
Nah, the truth is this was just 5 things that I personally like a lot. Those things are VERY heavily being considered among us at the development team, and are largely already taken care of.
This is not a fair critique. It's not a valid logical conclusion to believe that because this guy didn't mention your particular bugaboos that the DC20 system won't solve those problems (in your opinion). Your reasoning is not valid.
@@hawkname1234 No, it absolutely is valid, because these are colossal, game-breaking issues and it's unthinkable that anyone wouldn't mention them if they had improved them. Like, imagine you're living in Nazi Germany, reading an article entitled "Top 5 reasons to move out of Germany into France", and number 1 on that list was anything other than "you won't be killed by the Nazis". The only logical conclusion for that absence would be that there were also Nazis in France.
Is it a sin if I call it playing D&D even if I'm using DC20 system?
DUDE... I have actually thought this many times. I literally think that DC20 is what the next edition of DND SHOULD look like, but it'll have its own lore, world, stories, characters monsters and all that stuff. There will definitely be times I call it "D&D night" because I feel it captures the spirit of what gygax wanted in the first place. 👍
@@SlowYourRole20 agree
Most or all of these ideas were done before in 4th edition, in common house rules, and in other games over the last several decades. It's reinventing the wheel and the process probably could have gone a lot faster if it wasn't cobbled together from 5e house rules. It's cool that that's what you guys did, but try to have a little more awareness of things like where spell slots come from, even if you don't like it. I'm reluctant to get the game or look into it knowing that it's coming mainly from people who know modern 2020s 5e and nothing else.
Assuming that the team as a whole knows EXACTLY what I know and nothing else is incorrect. Assuming that the points presented in this short video are as detailed as they get is also incorrect.
It's safe to say that I may be the least knowledgeable of previous TTRPGS on the team, as well as playing a VERY small part in the team. DC20 was built by someone who is KNOWN for making 5e homebrew systems. This game takes and modifies many parts from popular TTRPGS and that's not an accident. Those TTRPGS are popular for a reason: We like playing them. We appreciate that you gave feedback.
@@SlowYourRole20 I didn't say the team as a whole, I said mainly. I've seen this video and I previously watched some of the Dungeon Coach videos where he puts it together. I like it and I like the enthusiasm but it has some of the same lack of awareness. "Why do they call it Armor Class?? Don't they know something else is called class already?? Bad design!" It's called Armor Class because Gary Gygax called it Armor Class and borrowed it from war gaming. There was no "design" yet, there was barely even the concept of class. This was pretty much the first RPG as we know it.
That's why they kept calling it AC even to the present day, that's why they have ability scores, that's why there's hit dice, that's why there's spell slots, etc. It's branding. It's definitely okay to change it and I agree with all the reasons for changing it, but all this information is easily available and it's annoying to talk about it like "what were these boneheads in 2014 thinking when they made 5e?" like 5e is the first game and they just named it 5e for some reason.
To be completely fair... Absolutely solid points my guy and I actually completely agree. It may come off as kinda poopin on 5e, and the reason for that largely is actually because Coach's original design inspiration was to take the times that commonly feel bad in 5e and present methods that improved on that in some way. BUT you're totally right, that 5e is actually amazing! I love it and it's roots and history and to hold on to branding from previous editions is completely acceptable and even admirable. Great rebuttal my friend, and thank you.
Stamina is dumb because it A) restricts what martials could already do, and B) it encourages the idea that you need a mechanic on a character sheet in order to be able to do something.
Long ago, if you wanted to jump from a balcony and land next to an enemy with a powerful downward strike, you didn’t need a special ability nor permission from the game system, but rather the GM would decide if any modifications should apply, and what kind of checks might be needed, and then describe how epically the character performed.
I understand the concept of your frustration but you'd be relieved to see that it doesn't actually hinder things the way you'd expect. You can definitely still do wild unscripted stuff like that and thankfully, in fact there are a lot of new systems in DC20 that encourage that like more in depth systems for skill challenges.
I think your remark is a little naive about how game system design works, and is understood today. For most tables, having the GM capriciously invent mechanics for even common actions is a huge burden and less fun for most players.
You're certainly entitled to have for your way, of course. But these mechanics will be more fun for more people than your OSR style suggestion.
Kind of reminds me of the FAGE system
Mix and match your ancestry is always a huge no-go for me. It smells too much of "I want to look like a dwarf but be as graceful as an elf".... like "I am an elephant but my father was a cheetah so now I can run a lot faster and have paws". Nope, not in my game. You want to be dwarf, you are a dwarf. Hammer, anvil, beard, alcoholism all included. No half orcs that look like barbie only with a green skin.
Haha I could see where you're coming from and to be fair I've ran into that in 5e even to some degree, but I will say as long as the player makes sense of it, DC20 has a good customization as far as that goes. Nothing is super heavily weighted as far as trait values and stuff.
You are allowed to run your game any way you want. You'll note that this system lets you play your way OR with more mix and match, which might be a good fit for other tables. Whereas picking ancestry packages only fits your way. So on that score, it is strictly better.
wake me up when there's Roll20 support
Haha sounds good. Alan (the dungeon coach) has already mentioned he has people working on that kind of digital content so it may be in the works.
there already is a initial system module for Foundry VTT (and is great although still a little raw) and the Dungeon Coach said that there will be support for Foundry, roll20 and fantasy grounds at least
I suggest people buy DC20... I will not because my own homebrew does the same things as DC20 but in better ways. A few years ago I shared some of my homebrew with the Dungeon Coach. He adjusted things his way. I ended up adjusting things my way. I like my way better... But for those who play Pathfinder and DnD, you will find DC20 is much more fun.
Very interesting! Thank you for that.
I bought it.
He literally paid off every D&D CZcamsr didn't he?
Hahaaa. Well he play tested with them all at garycon. And again in one shots for many of them. It's a fun game.
@@SlowYourRole20 Makes sense. To each their own. The whole four stats and not rolling damage are HUGE turn offs for me. Radical changes ruin the game for me. Calling something 6th edition when the only thing it seems to share with actual D&D is a D20 seems to be a stretch. I've played since BECMI and loved something about every edition including Pathfinder and A5E. The only ones I could never get into were PF2E (and I backed their play by buying the leather-bound playtest because I love Paizo) and 4th edition; both because they are too radically different from "D&D". This seems to be more of that and if it's your jam, good. But for me stripping things out of the game makes it worse, not better.
Personally, DC20 is too generalized and bland for me. That being said, I am happy new alternatives are appearing left and right. More options is always better than less options.
Genuine feedback, not in the form of projecting negativity... amazing. Thanks friend!
I love some of these ideas but honestly they seem sub par for an entire game creation. These either come off as changes or home rules you can adjust in D&D which the DM guide states “make it your game” or it seems a bit to close to MCDM. Obviously a bias as a patreon there. There game feels more original whereas DC20 even their logo feels like a D&D clone 😞
Of course. To be fair this is only very minor highlights of the actual rules. But yeah it's all about customization.
I still don’t understand why this system is better than pathfinder 2e
Truthfully I've not played pf2e but I know there are a lot of good things from that system. From what I understand there are far less complex rules and DC20 has a lot of rules to bring more simplicity to the similar concepts.
@@SlowYourRole20 that’s fair, it seems there’s less crafting and class complexity. So perhaps a middle of the road between dnd and pathfinder 2e. I’m sure it’ll have its fans.
This all sounds like all characters will become a gray slop with no defining characteristics.race seem like won't mean anything and the class seem all like they can do anything and won't have niches
I understand that concern. Thankfully classes are hugely unique with abilities even at level 1 unlike 5e.
I'm hearing a lot of stuff from 4E here, why shouldn't I just go back and play that great game instead?
You totally should if you want to! We took inspiration from 4e, 5e, pathfinder and many more. They are good games.
I HATE "just spells for martials" if you want spells play a caster. I come from 2e and i think that balance is stupid.
I think that martials should advance faster and be forced to protect weaker casters that take longer to lv at low lvs and then later the reverse becomes true.
The whole video game everyone has a role and is balanced thing destroys team bonding and roleplay imo.
Interesting take for sure. I get ya though.
Mana is just as bad as spell slots, theirs alot better way to do magic drawing from history and mythology you can get far more interesting systems that require far more planning and problem solving by players, abit more work but far more rewarding.
Complexity kills system adoption and casual player interest
Yeah... According to most play testing feedback, DC20's mana system is thankfully better than spell slots. They make for simpler gaming OR more complex depending on the player's preference.
Action Points are in my mind a bit of a bait and switch with the penalty. It is forcing you to play how the dev wants you to, rather than allowing you to just play as you want. If you want to attack 4 times, there shouldnt be a penalty to do so...not if they are saying you have these 4 pts and you can use them how you want. Yes, you might have other options, but if you want to keep it simple, let them just attack 4 times. Or whatever. Now its better semantically than the PF 3 ACTIONS because at least when you call it points you can say different actions cost different amount of pts and get around that complaint somewhat, but if an attack is 1 pt, I should be allowed to do four of them with no penalty. Done.
I also hate the modern take on races and such. I dont mind there being a system for creating homebrew/special races, but I dislike the "I am an elf, but I dont have elf traits" approach. Seems cheezy. REALLY hate the Prime Mod which basically makes all the attributes basically the same so why have more than 1 if you are going down that road....damage not being rolled...look, I know some people want a super super simple game, and maybe this fits that. But 5e is already so simple, I hardly think it needed to be watered down even more. I sincerely hope that those who were looking for an even more simplfied game gets what they wanted with this...truly. But for me, its just not hitting the spot. To be fair One DnD missed the mark too in most ways. I dont think DnD needs to go completely the PF1/2 route, but there should be more: At the very least no dead levels in martials and separate out feats and AIS and not tie them to classes.
This is a very in depth comment and it's appreciated! Also I can't say that I disagree with any of your opinions either. I mean I see where you are coming from with all points and I do think it's just a matter of preference.
BUT having played the game with several classes and people some of these concerns that I shared really just felt appropriate when played out at the table. It is actually not nearly as fun or strategic or special feeling for most people at the table to just attack 4 times with no variation. It's not fun in 5e when the barbarian starts their turn and says "I'm gonna attack them with my sword..." Then continues to do that exact same thing with zero variation or flavor for the next 4 rounds until the enemies are dead. The biggest reason I am loving DC20 is actually because it is Just fun. Everything about it feels good. Even spending 1 AP to attack, then 2AP to attack without Disadvantage, then your third AP to do whatever you want with still allows players more attacking at level 1 then any class in 5e.
Also prime only affects attack rolls and save DC's pretty much. ALL skill checks including combat related skill checks require specific attributes and each attribute grants very important things to a character such as more skills, health, defense, and more. Imo attributes matter significantly more in DC20 than 5e even.
Regardless, just wanted to reply and let you know I have thankful respect for your thoughts. 🩵
Not sure how One DnD missed the mark when the rules haven’t even been released yet…
@@tylerthorstrom4100 Because they released plenty of material during the playtest to demonstrate how poorly they are going about things. Nerfng Stunning Strike, Divine Smite, attempting to nerf sneak attack, etc. Yes there were some attempts to raise / fix some things, but the balance is basically nerf and water down. Yuck. They;d have to do a 180 in the final printed version for my assessment to be incorrect.
@@shadowmancer99 Aren’t Smite and Stunning Strike widely considered over overpowered in 5e compared to other abilities? And they were testing making Sneak attack better with the introduction of ways to spend your sneak attack dice for new effects.
@@tylerthorstrom4100 Originally, the wanted to make Sneak Attack only once a round, which was a nerf and retracted THEN they put in what people thought was a good idea with using SA dice for other effects. As far as what others think of Stunning Strike, its the ONE good base monk feature and its still lagging cause its a real gamble and easy to run out of Ki Pts if you spam it. So no, peoplethinking its OP are basically wrong. As for Divine Smite, maybe, but even so, who cares? Not all features NEED to be the same power level, and its fine where it was...and again if they used all their spell slots to smite, they can easily run out and/or not be using other good options for the slots. So really, not really OP as it is resouce limited. The 5e community is known to be overly sensitive and hyperbolic about what they call OP. Those of us with other edition exp, esp 3.5 know what OP really looks like...and hell, I WANT OP stuff in the game...if my teammate has a powerful ability, that allows ALL of us to excel. I dont get the hate.
Sounds pathfinderish to me. 😅
It absolutely is! And it's also 5e and 4e-ish lol. It borrows and perfects many concepts from the games that most people love and it's no accident lol.
i still feel like these new TTRPG's are to simplified... they have lost the complexity of older systems and that has been a major turn off for me--- that includes 5e and PF2e,.
Yeah I mean truthfully I get that and DC20 may not be for you, but there a lot more customization and crunch options in DC20 than what I highlighted in this video. That being said some things were definitely made simpler.
Just switch to SWADE, better than pf 1 and 2 and 5e.
I've looked at swade and it doesn't have a hold on me like DC20 does lol.
I'm playing SWADE right now. It's fine, but not better than D&D if you want high fantasy.
@@hawkname1234 it's way better than DND if you want high fantasy
DND fantasy is trash and a rip off
Ancestry system sounds like a dumb way to make choices less consequential. Kids today…tsk tsk.
Thankfully, that is not actually the case.
@@SlowYourRole20 I pray you are correct…I’ll try to keep an open mind but it stinks of theater kid energy. “Oh I’m a half vampire, half werewolf, half elf, half dwarf, with kobold ancestry so I just picked one trait from 5 different ancestries”. DnD is almost anti-Tolkien at this point, which is insane since DnD was basically a tabletop game to pretend to be in the lord of the rings but not pay royalties
There are so many games better than DnD. Oh so many games
And again of course its all preference lol. I mean i do love 5e quite a bit, but i REALLY like DC20 lol.
So it's 4e
Nah. It's got a lot of good stuff from third, fourth, and fifth editions, as well as Pathfinder 1 and 2 though.
Needlessly complicated and fiddly. It's no better oe worse than 3e. Use Basic Fantasy RPG. less rules = more freedom to do crazy rhings.
It's all preference I suppose. I do like a good simple game.
It’s suspiciously similar to 4e.
I see what you mean but it's not as similar as it sounds once you compare more than my quick highlights.