Big ups to PRO for talking about the offside and the handling. There's still going to be people that were upset, but at least they added the visibility into it.
That's a handball. They can talk all they want about it being "close to the body" but watch when the shot is taken and you clearly see him throw his arm out wide and then try to bring it in. That's intentionally making himself bigger and can be interpreted as moving his arm to the ball. Furthermore, when you see this, the redirect is more down than out indicating it came off the bicep rather than the chest. You can see the arm move from the impact on the behind the goal angle as well. If it went chest first, the arm wouldn't move like that. You have everything you need here for DOGSO and the PK. He intentionally made himself bigger, he moved his arm into the path of the ball, and he got the ball with his arm. It's a PK.
It's seems like you're trying to argue something which Barkey (the host) already acknowledged at the end which is PRO believes this should have been a PK.
Yeah well that was what they said and what anyone with a brain knew it was a handball. Outside of the STL fans who were saying it wasn't a handball and we all know why they were whining about it. I just hope for the MLS that they cut out these shitty refs. The woman VAR reviewer seemed to have no clue about an obvious goal-line rule. I've heard she is a great referee, but she shouldn't see the playoffs as a VAR ref in the future for the ENTIRE MLS'S SAKE.
There's no serious argument that his arm is in anything other than a natural position. I believe the laws should be amended to MAKE this a PK, but under the current laws it simply is not.
"However, there's a nuanced difference here that should be added to the analysis. He was on the goal line." The PRO analyst is literally saying it was a blown call. This is how they say sorry for f'd calls in the MLS, unlike the Premiere League that would just up and say "we fucked up, and then remove that ref" lol.@@dangerdanadv1445
Confirming it was a handball and should have been a straight red and a pen didn't really give me the satisfaction that I expected. Though it was class to admit the mistake. If only everyone was perfect. :)
This is SOOOO QUALITY! Thanks for illuminating your process and efforts to honestly make the best call. This is BIG step for PRO and MLS toward becoming a legitimate top 5 league!
They've done it all season and he's called it out when he feels they have been wrong. Honestly it is very interesting to watch. Especially when there is a mass confrontation and they slow it down to see who hits who in order to hand out cards, very interesting to see them do their job in VAR.
There has been so much emphasis on 'making oneself bigger' that it feels like VAR got caught up in that one aspect. Yes, the arm was pretty much against the body, but the defender also dipped the shoulder to block it. Also, on Instant Replay they drilled in with the behind the goal view making contact with the arm more obvious. They didn't appear to use that same angle at the same magnification during their VAR review. Even without that, I do think arm contact is clear.
For me, its the classic make yourself as big as possible without looking suspicious and it worked, clear handball imo. Sad to see Sporting KC season end like this. PRO be better!
EPL VAR draws lines on a screen and everyone criticizes them for how ridiculous it is and "the game doesn't want this, they just want obvious offside called". So then PRO does visual check vs. drawing lines, if it's too close to tell then they call it onside like everyone wants EPL to do, and everyone criticizes them for not being exact enough. You people are unbelievable.
The fierce debate among referees, PRO, and fans shows that IFAB needs to add a special stipulation to the LOTG about DOGSO accidental handballs the same way they did for accidental attacking handballs that score a goal, where if it touches the arm and is scored directly or goes arm to foot to goal, it's called a handball They need to make it a rule that if a shot on goal is handled by a defender that prevents an obvious goal i.e. standing on the goal line, acting as the goalkeeper with no one else behind him, etc., even if accidental, that it AT MINIMUM leads to a penalty kick, period. It doesn't necesarily have to be a red card, it could just be a yellow card in the same way that a DOGSO penalty kick playing the ball is now a yellow card. This would remove all the subjectivity from this situation about "if it was close to the body" or "natural position" or "making the body bigger". You wouldn't put the VAR in this horrible position. They would say "the ball hit his arm and he's standing on the goal line, it's a penalty, period".
@@eboethrasher his arm is exactly where you'd expect it to be given the movement he made to get in position, it is the definition of natural. What he did is not, and should not, be considered a cardable offense. Even the PRO guy in the video says "these are all considerations for NO HAND BALL" then goes on to say "but fans expect ________". Per the laws, it is not a hand ball, he says as much, then rationalizes why the rules should not apply here. The arm was in a natural and justifiable position. No pk was the correct call in the current rules, this play is an example of why those rules need to be changed. Plays like this should be a penalty kick with no red or yellow card handed out.
Where is the Finals review??? Weird PK decision and y’all are quiet. I’m for neither team, just seemed like an incorrect decision and need clarification.
2 out of the last 3 years PRO has been instrumental in altering the playoff fate of Sporting KC directly. This seems to me to be more than circumstantial. I would normally chalk this up to my personal bias, but this incident is a ridiculous "use" of VAR. I'd say do better, but any fan of MLS knows better than to expect that.
No official apology for a game altering mistake on the obvious handball? Classic He literally moves his arm to block the ball and it clearly hits him in the bicep. Just terrible by Pro
PRO you guys are a clown show. Fantastic save by Sviatchenko sign him up for keeper next year. I have no stake in this game besides wanting to watch a clean competition. Really pathetic stuff
I'm sorry, what? As a referee, in no way is there a difference between the ball hitting the arm in a natural position on your own goal line or in the middle of the field. You won't find that in any law book and they won't teach that at any course so what on earth are you saying?
I think he is trying to make an argument that the spirit (law 5) wants handball there, but the whole argument seemed sloppy to me. It’s either natural or not in 12 and that’s all that should matter and that’s all he should be pointing to.
@andytretten I took it as the margin for error is extremely small. Any separation between arm and ball is an advantage and grounds for a PK. It makes a defender bigger to stop the goal. I would assume he's saying "unless your arm is flush to the body, it has to be called on the goal line."
Good thing that isn't one what happened. His arm was in a natural position and tucked reasonably close to his body, there is nothing more he should be doing to prevent that. We should absolutely NOT be demanding that defenders put their arms behind their back. The PRO guy all but says "the rules don't apply" cuz it's on the goal line, I can't get behind that logic. That is not a penalty under the current rules, though I think the rules should be AMENDED to make that into a penalty without a card. @@riffbw
So, just like 2021, skc gets fucked by a bad non penalty call by pro who later come out and say it was a bad call. Wow, thanks for another one refs....
If the VAR only has access to the broadcast angles then why did they say that VAR had a definitive angle that proved without a doubt? He's offside. That 18 yard angle makes it look egregious. It needs to go to review by the center ref.
That's not how VAR works. VAR can only recommend the center referee (CR) review it if they think there is a clear error. The point made in this segment was VAR did NOT think there was a clear error because there wasn't an angle clearly showing the attacker to be offside.
@@MrCho14 as I previously stated the high 18 angle shows clear evidence that he's offside (he was) and the var GUESSED by where he thinks the defenders right foot is. They line it up with the attackers right foot, despite the fact that his knee and shoulder are beyond his own right foot. It should have been suggested for review.
@@Bmye1011 It doesn't show "clear evidence" at all. What do you want exactly? You want this to be like EPL VAR where they start drawing lines and everyone criticizes them for that?
@@Bmye1011 If they're guessing where a body part, they how can there be clear evidence that the call on the field is wrong? Your logic contradicts itself.
Big ups to PRO for talking about the offside and the handling. There's still going to be people that were upset, but at least they added the visibility into it.
That's a handball. They can talk all they want about it being "close to the body" but watch when the shot is taken and you clearly see him throw his arm out wide and then try to bring it in. That's intentionally making himself bigger and can be interpreted as moving his arm to the ball.
Furthermore, when you see this, the redirect is more down than out indicating it came off the bicep rather than the chest. You can see the arm move from the impact on the behind the goal angle as well. If it went chest first, the arm wouldn't move like that.
You have everything you need here for DOGSO and the PK. He intentionally made himself bigger, he moved his arm into the path of the ball, and he got the ball with his arm. It's a PK.
It's seems like you're trying to argue something which Barkey (the host) already acknowledged at the end which is PRO believes this should have been a PK.
This is basically what PRO’s opinion is but with more words.
Yeah well that was what they said and what anyone with a brain knew it was a handball. Outside of the STL fans who were saying it wasn't a handball and we all know why they were whining about it.
I just hope for the MLS that they cut out these shitty refs. The woman VAR reviewer seemed to have no clue about an obvious goal-line rule. I've heard she is a great referee, but she shouldn't see the playoffs as a VAR ref in the future for the ENTIRE MLS'S SAKE.
There's no serious argument that his arm is in anything other than a natural position. I believe the laws should be amended to MAKE this a PK, but under the current laws it simply is not.
"However, there's a nuanced difference here that should be added to the analysis. He was on the goal line." The PRO analyst is literally saying it was a blown call. This is how they say sorry for f'd calls in the MLS, unlike the Premiere League that would just up and say "we fucked up, and then remove that ref" lol.@@dangerdanadv1445
Confirming it was a handball and should have been a straight red and a pen didn't really give me the satisfaction that I expected. Though it was class to admit the mistake. If only everyone was perfect. :)
This is SOOOO QUALITY! Thanks for illuminating your process and efforts to honestly make the best call. This is BIG step for PRO and MLS toward becoming a legitimate top 5 league!
Also, not necessarily saying I agree with all of the calls.
They've done it all season and he's called it out when he feels they have been wrong. Honestly it is very interesting to watch. Especially when there is a mass confrontation and they slow it down to see who hits who in order to hand out cards, very interesting to see them do their job in VAR.
Appreciate the transparency with the calls. It appeared VAR was more interested in how fast they (she) could “complete” the check.
I wondered how long it would take for gender to be pointed out.
@@probablynotian i forgot the person’s name so had to guess the pronoun. I have given myself 12 lashings for being so inconsiderate. 😉
There has been so much emphasis on 'making oneself bigger' that it feels like VAR got caught up in that one aspect. Yes, the arm was pretty much against the body, but the defender also dipped the shoulder to block it. Also, on Instant Replay they drilled in with the behind the goal view making contact with the arm more obvious. They didn't appear to use that same angle at the same magnification during their VAR review. Even without that, I do think arm contact is clear.
For me, its the classic make yourself as big as possible without looking suspicious and it worked, clear handball imo. Sad to see Sporting KC season end like this. PRO be better!
EPL VAR draws lines on a screen and everyone criticizes them for how ridiculous it is and "the game doesn't want this, they just want obvious offside called". So then PRO does visual check vs. drawing lines, if it's too close to tell then they call it onside like everyone wants EPL to do, and everyone criticizes them for not being exact enough. You people are unbelievable.
The fierce debate among referees, PRO, and fans shows that IFAB needs to add a special stipulation to the LOTG about DOGSO accidental handballs the same way they did for accidental attacking handballs that score a goal, where if it touches the arm and is scored directly or goes arm to foot to goal, it's called a handball
They need to make it a rule that if a shot on goal is handled by a defender that prevents an obvious goal i.e. standing on the goal line, acting as the goalkeeper with no one else behind him, etc., even if accidental, that it AT MINIMUM leads to a penalty kick, period. It doesn't necesarily have to be a red card, it could just be a yellow card in the same way that a DOGSO penalty kick playing the ball is now a yellow card.
This would remove all the subjectivity from this situation about "if it was close to the body" or "natural position" or "making the body bigger". You wouldn't put the VAR in this horrible position. They would say "the ball hit his arm and he's standing on the goal line, it's a penalty, period".
Yeah but that wasn't even accidental based on how his hand had just been thrown out to the side.
@@eboethrasher his arm is exactly where you'd expect it to be given the movement he made to get in position, it is the definition of natural. What he did is not, and should not, be considered a cardable offense. Even the PRO guy in the video says "these are all considerations for NO HAND BALL" then goes on to say "but fans expect ________". Per the laws, it is not a hand ball, he says as much, then rationalizes why the rules should not apply here.
The arm was in a natural and justifiable position. No pk was the correct call in the current rules, this play is an example of why those rules need to be changed. Plays like this should be a penalty kick with no red or yellow card handed out.
That was def a handball
While I still love this,
that last call was baaaad. Thats a handball alllllllllll day
Where is the Finals review??? Weird PK decision and y’all are quiet. I’m for neither team, just seemed like an incorrect decision and need clarification.
2 out of the last 3 years PRO has been instrumental in altering the playoff fate of Sporting KC directly. This seems to me to be more than circumstantial. I would normally chalk this up to my personal bias, but this incident is a ridiculous "use" of VAR. I'd say do better, but any fan of MLS knows better than to expect that.
Clear and obvious was key in the FCC decision. Nothing was definitive in any of the review angles
Well offside
No official apology for a game altering mistake on the obvious handball? Classic
He literally moves his arm to block the ball and it clearly hits him in the bicep. Just terrible by Pro
The guy literally admits it at the end. Not their job to apologize, just admit the mistake and move on.
PRO you guys are a clown show. Fantastic save by Sviatchenko sign him up for keeper next year. I have no stake in this game besides wanting to watch a clean competition. Really pathetic stuff
I'm sorry, what? As a referee, in no way is there a difference between the ball hitting the arm in a natural position on your own goal line or in the middle of the field. You won't find that in any law book and they won't teach that at any course so what on earth are you saying?
No, but the law book is absolutely clear on making yourself bigger and moving your arm into the path of the ball.
I think he is trying to make an argument that the spirit (law 5) wants handball there, but the whole argument seemed sloppy to me. It’s either natural or not in 12 and that’s all that should matter and that’s all he should be pointing to.
@andytretten I took it as the margin for error is extremely small. Any separation between arm and ball is an advantage and grounds for a PK. It makes a defender bigger to stop the goal.
I would assume he's saying "unless your arm is flush to the body, it has to be called on the goal line."
PRO just making stuff up
Good thing that isn't one what happened. His arm was in a natural position and tucked reasonably close to his body, there is nothing more he should be doing to prevent that. We should absolutely NOT be demanding that defenders put their arms behind their back. The PRO guy all but says "the rules don't apply" cuz it's on the goal line, I can't get behind that logic. That is not a penalty under the current rules, though I think the rules should be AMENDED to make that into a penalty without a card.
@@riffbw
Nothing about the terrible calls from Unkel while he failed to maintain control of the game?
That’s every Unkel game. PRO probably don’t want to comment on obvious things that are commonplace.
This video series is about Video Review decisions, not your general complaining. Try to keep up.
OFFSIDE
So, just like 2021, skc gets fucked by a bad non penalty call by pro who later come out and say it was a bad call. Wow, thanks for another one refs....
If the VAR only has access to the broadcast angles then why did they say that VAR had a definitive angle that proved without a doubt? He's offside. That 18 yard angle makes it look egregious. It needs to go to review by the center ref.
That's not how VAR works. VAR can only recommend the center referee (CR) review it if they think there is a clear error. The point made in this segment was VAR did NOT think there was a clear error because there wasn't an angle clearly showing the attacker to be offside.
@@MrCho14 as I previously stated the high 18 angle shows clear evidence that he's offside (he was) and the var GUESSED by where he thinks the defenders right foot is. They line it up with the attackers right foot, despite the fact that his knee and shoulder are beyond his own right foot. It should have been suggested for review.
@@Bmye1011 It doesn't show "clear evidence" at all. What do you want exactly? You want this to be like EPL VAR where they start drawing lines and everyone criticizes them for that?
@@Bmye1011 If they're guessing where a body part, they how can there be clear evidence that the call on the field is wrong? Your logic contradicts itself.