Totally agree with the Sounders analysis. Feels like it could have gone either way. I don't think Nouhou was trying to hit it with his hand, but it is up to interpretation and it was fast.
There's 'trying to hit it with his hand', which is very rare, and then there's 'doing something unnatural and ending up handling the ball.' Both are handballs. I think Nouhou did the latter, but I agree it certainly could be subjective in this case.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that it was a handball. Everything was happening so fast that I doubt he was able to see where the ball was going. I was at the game, 3rd row from the front right behind the net, even I couldn't see what happened cause it was so fast.
It was very hard for the referee to see and it appeared so some people that Nouhou might have been pushed and he was putting his hands infront to save his fall.
It's mentioned below somewhere and discussed more on other sites. Nobody really thinks that's a push. The player was already diving across. There may have a been a little contact, but it was not a push nor foul.
@@MrCho14"Nobody" thinks it's a handball. Riiiiiiight. I bet you're the guy at the dance club who says "Nobody likes this song!" when the dance floor is packed. You don't speak for me.
@@northernsouler Not trying to be contentious. My point is it has been discussed and the consensus is that there was no push. A few people bring it up, but the overwhelming response is that it not a push and is a non-issue. Sorry that the word 'nobody' was taken too literal and confused the real situation.
It’s sad to hear these refs have to keep asking players to get away from them as they crowd them after a call. MLS needs to take a page out of the Euros from this year and caution every player besides the captain who crowds a referee. Crack down on this bull crap
On the plus side, I liked hearing the warnings from the other crew when the centers were looking at the var. Also really liked hearing Natalie telling several men "Walk away!"
@@darealbriznady It's good they have someone else watching their back, but the players 100% know and they gain 100% nothing by standing there and interrupting the on field review process. They've now been told to walk away this week. Next week it should be automatic cautions. The referees need to gain control back and not allow this crap during the review or other times. It's nonsense.
@@MrCho14Saint Louis was fined for “mass confrontation” several weeks ago. I am biased as a City supporter. I thought that was an overreaction for that specific situation. But I think that is the right way to handle it…it’s a bigger punishment than just a yellow card. But MLS needs to make that very public when they do it so others get the message.
@@lancesouthwick6585 Yellow cards hit the players much harder than the club being fined an unknown amount. I highly doubt it hurts them very much nor does it get pushed to the players. I'm perfectly fine with a player picking up a 2nd yellow if they're improperly engaging with the referee as well. It needs to stop. BTW - Teams have been fined for mass confrontation for years. It clearly doesn't help.
I think the the overturned handball that hit the chest is the only play that was officiated correctly. On the first call, I am not sure there is much contact. The defender ends up on the wrong side after fumbling the ball and his arms are outstretched but the attacker slows down and reaches back with both hands when the defenders arm brushes his back. I do not really see a grab, tug, or turn. I find it odd that nobody questions how much contact there was from the defender. On the overturned penalty, why was Espinoza not given a yellow card for simulation? It was a clear dive. There are two major problems with the Sounders penalty. The first is that Frei pushes the ball away from the line with his left hand before Nouhou touches the ball. Therefore it was ball to hand. The second is that Nouhou's leap is clearly impacted by a push from an LAFC player. As he is starting to jump his feet barley leave the ground and then they kick up instead of moving forward because of the push. He basically stalls at liftoff because of the push. Diving was a slightly weird decision though. Maybe he was trying to head the ball off the line. He certainly did not purposely block a clearance with his arm. Given the amount of time the reviews take, I think it is very frustrating how often the VAR and officials miss or dismiss relevant factors while slowing the play down and looking at different angles. They often fixate on one factor or moment while disregarding important actions that cause contact or a handball. They also often fail to question if the contact was enough to cause the reaction that is observe. Therefore the potential benefits of VAR are being wasted in many cases.
I think you have to consider VAR is trying to rapidly make these decisions in real time. Where as you and I could rewind 100 times to dissect something like that. They don’t want to impede on the flow of the game more than they have to and we would all be complaining if they did.
@@lancesouthwick6585 VAR isn't doing it in 'real time'. The referee is doing it 'real time'. The VAR has no time limit with many different angles. Sure, they can't spend unlimited time like some people here can, but they also get to pick their camera angles and drill in and cross reference as they wish.
1st one: The foul is pretty clear honestly. You are right that the attacker's actions with his arms might indicate he is slowing to legally shield potentially making it not DOGSO, but that's a judgment call. It doesn't change the PK. I agree that Espinoza was a good candidate for a simulation card there. Once they determined that the defender had played the ball they just looked at the fact that there was no illegal contact. One of the angles from behind, I think, shows if there was contact it was minimal at best. I like that they got the PK call correct and got back to the game quickly but I do think they could have shifted focus to a potential yellow as well. Seattle: This one has been talked about. I can't agree with pretty much anything you said there at a clear and obvious level. VAR already takes too long and these youtube videos show how long it *could* take. I'd love to have this down to a science where half the review isn't wasted with someone saying "back 5 seconds. I said back 5 seconds. No. Back more. Stop crowding the monitor...."
@@MrCho14 The amount of time VAR takes is a factor. My issue is that in many of these clips they chose to focus on the wrong things. They spent a lot of time on the obvious and missed discussing and questioning the key elements of the plays. On the first foul, they did not even consider how much contact there was and instead jumped right to the DOGSO or yellow question. On the Espinoza play it took them a long time to reach the obvious conclusion that the defender wins the ball so they wrapped up instead of considering a yellow for a dive. On the Seattle handball, there is no question his hand landed on the ball. Therefore, the time spent looking at the point of contact multiple times was a waste of time. I think his hand was in a natural position because you do not want to land with your arm underneath your own body. Frei clearly makes the save after Nouhou was in the air. It is completely ridiculous that the ref quickly dismissed Frei's save as a factor. The Var should have pushed back about the impact of the save. The VAR and ref did not even notice or discuss the clear push in the back by the LAFC player because they were too busy looking at the hand landing on the ball. I think my points indicate clear and obvious errors in the way the ref saw the play.
@@williamsampson4460 As I said, I do think that the reviews could happen more efficiently from a process standpoint. In general, they do a good job of looking at all the aspects that matter. For the first one, again, I don't think they missed anything here at all. The call was a PK on the field and therefore had to be clear and obvious to overturn that aspect. There was nothing there to make them think it wasn't a foul, and I completely agree with that even after looking at it with unlimited time. I think you're really just reaching on this one. Espinoza is an example of not finding the right angle quick enough. The first couple angles it's not as obvious. Only when they found that 'smoking gun' do we all say, "duh, of course it's obvious'. Seattle handling.....it's been hashed out. It's subjective and could go either way. I'm in agreement with the CR. Others are more in line with VAR. Many calls in soccer play out this way. There was no push. This one is old and tired for me.
I look forward to MLS implementing the captain only rule like the Euros. Or a rule that no one can talk to the Referee during a VAR Check. Situations like Natalie had to go through at the SJvHOU match only brings disrespect to the game.
Nobody is allowed to interfere with an on field review right now. They need to start enforcing it with immediate yellow cards. The player is going to gain ZERO by hovering over and not letting them all do their job. Other leagues have stadiums where they can get the monitor further off the pitch. Without being able to do that, we need players 10 yards from the sideline. Caution immediately if they encroach.
I felt bad for Chapman having to call the handball on Nouhou. It was a harsh call but rules are the rules. However, now I hear VAR recommending no handball and I am rethinking Chapman's motivation. He usually calls a pretty good game but I felt that he wasn't as consistent as usual. That said, Sounders lost that game by themselves.
In the Seattle v LA call the VAR and the referee overlooked the fact that LA 27 pushed the Seattle defender towards the goal, causing him to go to ground, this should have nullified any potential handball on the defender as he was extending his arm going to ground after he was fouled by an attacking player being pushed from behind under the IFA laws of the game. The fact that PRO did not come out and blatantly say our guy screwed up, missed the push from behind and should not have awarded the penalty and continues to come up with defense of poor decisions with “it subjective so the referees decisions stands“ is unacceptable and continues to show why pro is inferior to the European officials. Also, avoiding the Atlanta, New York review in both definitive angle and on CZcams when the video referee and referee failed to overturn a clear embellishment, and then less than a week later to have a video referee, not intervene for the same problem against the same club is a joke. if PRO wishes to be taken seriously more transparency is necessary and public disciplinary action against officials who are poor performers is necessary.
He wasn’t pushed down, he was already falling down and the attacker barely touched his ass. And you talk about “transparency”, PRO’s inside video review and definitive angle is LITERALLY the most transparent any referee program in the world is. Get a clue and sit down.
PRO’s show and article will never discuss plays that weren’t sent for a review. There are probably 50+ plays that are checked for a few moments, but not sent down. For the play you’re talking about specifically, was it clear embellishment in the penalty area? Public disciplinary action will always be a nonstarter.
Just because you don't like the laws of the game and the subjective call doesn't mean the PRO is out to get Seattle. The difference is PRO and Europe here is that in Europe the VAR would not recommend a review in such a situation where it's subjective and not clear and obvious. I do appreciate you showing transparency in speaking of 'our guy'. It makes it easier to identify the bias opinions.
@@MrCho14 How about the fact that there were 2 offsides later in the game that were never called? or the handball by LAFC that wasn't called either? All the times that LA Floppers get away with flopping cause the yellow is given to the player they stepped in front of? Oh my god all the other Western Conference teams could go on n on about the blatant favoritism that LAFC receives from the refs. This is the exact reason that almost all the fans of Western Conference teams were rooting for Columbus to win the MLS Cup last year. We are sick of LAFC being allowed to get away with this BS by refs like Unkle and Chapman.
When you are falling forward with momentum you naturally put your hand out in front of you, not straight down or else you are going to carry on and face plant. Add to the equation the fact that the ball isn’t hit backwards until he is in the act of falling and I don’t see how anyone can logically claim it was intentional. Ergo, not intentional and also not an unnatural position. The ref botched this one despite VAR calling his attention to the mistake.
I think the video has this correct. It is absolutely a subjective judgment call. Many believe as you do. Many do not. Others are still confused as hell about what handling is for a defender. Given it is a judgment and not a clear error, VAR technically shouldn't have gotten involved, but I'm okay with the process here as the two sides both have legit arguments.
I've just about had it wit the handball rule. Imo, the "natural arm position" part has allowed way too many defenders to let their arms be too free. I get it, if a ball is smacked a foot from a guy and their hand is covering their face, it's not a handball, but if it's outstretched, away from their body, natural or deliberate should not matter if it directly affects the attacking teams ability to play a ball towards goal. Whether it's a shot, pass, or cross, it doeant matter to me. Defenders should have to go back to needing to keep their arms at their side or behind their back like they used to. Stonewall pen for me.
While I don't like the rule either, as a Sounders fan I sadly have to agree that this was an unfortunate mistake that resulted in the only correct call Chapman made that entire game. Chapman was so bad that I legit thought it was Unkle on the field during the first half.
I hear what you're saying and I agree that the handball rules are so frustrating because they can be interpreted a bunch of different ways. But, at the same time, defenders need to be able to run full speed. They need to be able to jump as high as they can. They need to be able to slide tackle or dive. It's really not possible to do any of these things to one's full potential if their arms are behind their backs or glued to their sides. Go try to slide tackle with your arms at your sides; it just doesn't work. Like I said, I get the frustration. I have no idea what a ref is going to consider a 'natural' position anymore. I see non-handballs called that I feel are obvious handballs and vice versa. There is huge inconsistency and it would be nice to see it buttoned down. I don't know what the solution is... but I do feel like defenders need to be able to move freely.
Totally agree with the Sounders analysis. Feels like it could have gone either way. I don't think Nouhou was trying to hit it with his hand, but it is up to interpretation and it was fast.
There's 'trying to hit it with his hand', which is very rare, and then there's 'doing something unnatural and ending up handling the ball.' Both are handballs. I think Nouhou did the latter, but I agree it certainly could be subjective in this case.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that it was a handball. Everything was happening so fast that I doubt he was able to see where the ball was going. I was at the game, 3rd row from the front right behind the net, even I couldn't see what happened cause it was so fast.
It was very hard for the referee to see and it appeared so some people that Nouhou might have been pushed and he was putting his hands infront to save his fall.
Did nobody see Nouhou get pushed down into the fracas? Poor decision by the referee to not listen to the VAR crew.
It's mentioned below somewhere and discussed more on other sites. Nobody really thinks that's a push. The player was already diving across. There may have a been a little contact, but it was not a push nor foul.
@@MrCho14"Nobody" thinks it's a handball. Riiiiiiight. I bet you're the guy at the dance club who says "Nobody likes this song!" when the dance floor is packed.
You don't speak for me.
@@northernsouler Not trying to be contentious. My point is it has been discussed and the consensus is that there was no push. A few people bring it up, but the overwhelming response is that it not a push and is a non-issue. Sorry that the word 'nobody' was taken too literal and confused the real situation.
And yellow car for simulation to rothrock... left everyone pissed.
There should have been a penalty called in the sounders game.
It’s sad to hear these refs have to keep asking players to get away from them as they crowd them after a call. MLS needs to take a page out of the Euros from this year and caution every player besides the captain who crowds a referee. Crack down on this bull crap
On the plus side, I liked hearing the warnings from the other crew when the centers were looking at the var. Also really liked hearing Natalie telling several men "Walk away!"
@@darealbriznady It's good they have someone else watching their back, but the players 100% know and they gain 100% nothing by standing there and interrupting the on field review process. They've now been told to walk away this week. Next week it should be automatic cautions. The referees need to gain control back and not allow this crap during the review or other times. It's nonsense.
@@MrCho14Saint Louis was fined for “mass confrontation” several weeks ago.
I am biased as a City supporter. I thought that was an overreaction for that specific situation. But I think that is the right way to handle it…it’s a bigger punishment than just a yellow card. But MLS needs to make that very public when they do it so others get the message.
@@lancesouthwick6585 Yellow cards hit the players much harder than the club being fined an unknown amount. I highly doubt it hurts them very much nor does it get pushed to the players. I'm perfectly fine with a player picking up a 2nd yellow if they're improperly engaging with the referee as well. It needs to stop.
BTW - Teams have been fined for mass confrontation for years. It clearly doesn't help.
100% agree
I think the the overturned handball that hit the chest is the only play that was officiated correctly. On the first call, I am not sure there is much contact. The defender ends up on the wrong side after fumbling the ball and his arms are outstretched but the attacker slows down and reaches back with both hands when the defenders arm brushes his back. I do not really see a grab, tug, or turn. I find it odd that nobody questions how much contact there was from the defender.
On the overturned penalty, why was Espinoza not given a yellow card for simulation? It was a clear dive.
There are two major problems with the Sounders penalty. The first is that Frei pushes the ball away from the line with his left hand before Nouhou touches the ball. Therefore it was ball to hand. The second is that Nouhou's leap is clearly impacted by a push from an LAFC player. As he is starting to jump his feet barley leave the ground and then they kick up instead of moving forward because of the push. He basically stalls at liftoff because of the push. Diving was a slightly weird decision though. Maybe he was trying to head the ball off the line. He certainly did not purposely block a clearance with his arm.
Given the amount of time the reviews take, I think it is very frustrating how often the VAR and officials miss or dismiss relevant factors while slowing the play down and looking at different angles. They often fixate on one factor or moment while disregarding important actions that cause contact or a handball. They also often fail to question if the contact was enough to cause the reaction that is observe. Therefore the potential benefits of VAR are being wasted in many cases.
I think you have to consider VAR is trying to rapidly make these decisions in real time. Where as you and I could rewind 100 times to dissect something like that. They don’t want to impede on the flow of the game more than they have to and we would all be complaining if they did.
@@lancesouthwick6585 VAR isn't doing it in 'real time'. The referee is doing it 'real time'. The VAR has no time limit with many different angles. Sure, they can't spend unlimited time like some people here can, but they also get to pick their camera angles and drill in and cross reference as they wish.
1st one: The foul is pretty clear honestly. You are right that the attacker's actions with his arms might indicate he is slowing to legally shield potentially making it not DOGSO, but that's a judgment call. It doesn't change the PK.
I agree that Espinoza was a good candidate for a simulation card there. Once they determined that the defender had played the ball they just looked at the fact that there was no illegal contact. One of the angles from behind, I think, shows if there was contact it was minimal at best. I like that they got the PK call correct and got back to the game quickly but I do think they could have shifted focus to a potential yellow as well.
Seattle: This one has been talked about. I can't agree with pretty much anything you said there at a clear and obvious level.
VAR already takes too long and these youtube videos show how long it *could* take. I'd love to have this down to a science where half the review isn't wasted with someone saying "back 5 seconds. I said back 5 seconds. No. Back more. Stop crowding the monitor...."
@@MrCho14 The amount of time VAR takes is a factor. My issue is that in many of these clips they chose to focus on the wrong things. They spent a lot of time on the obvious and missed discussing and questioning the key elements of the plays.
On the first foul, they did not even consider how much contact there was and instead jumped right to the DOGSO or yellow question. On the Espinoza play it took them a long time to reach the obvious conclusion that the defender wins the ball so they wrapped up instead of considering a yellow for a dive. On the Seattle handball, there is no question his hand landed on the ball. Therefore, the time spent looking at the point of contact multiple times was a waste of time.
I think his hand was in a natural position because you do not want to land with your arm underneath your own body. Frei clearly makes the save after Nouhou was in the air. It is completely ridiculous that the ref quickly dismissed Frei's save as a factor. The Var should have pushed back about the impact of the save.
The VAR and ref did not even notice or discuss the clear push in the back by the LAFC player because they were too busy looking at the hand landing on the ball. I think my points indicate clear and obvious errors in the way the ref saw the play.
@@williamsampson4460 As I said, I do think that the reviews could happen more efficiently from a process standpoint. In general, they do a good job of looking at all the aspects that matter.
For the first one, again, I don't think they missed anything here at all. The call was a PK on the field and therefore had to be clear and obvious to overturn that aspect. There was nothing there to make them think it wasn't a foul, and I completely agree with that even after looking at it with unlimited time. I think you're really just reaching on this one.
Espinoza is an example of not finding the right angle quick enough. The first couple angles it's not as obvious. Only when they found that 'smoking gun' do we all say, "duh, of course it's obvious'.
Seattle handling.....it's been hashed out. It's subjective and could go either way. I'm in agreement with the CR. Others are more in line with VAR. Many calls in soccer play out this way.
There was no push. This one is old and tired for me.
I look forward to MLS implementing the captain only rule like the Euros. Or a rule that no one can talk to the Referee during a VAR Check. Situations like Natalie had to go through at the SJvHOU match only brings disrespect to the game.
Nobody is allowed to interfere with an on field review right now. They need to start enforcing it with immediate yellow cards. The player is going to gain ZERO by hovering over and not letting them all do their job. Other leagues have stadiums where they can get the monitor further off the pitch. Without being able to do that, we need players 10 yards from the sideline. Caution immediately if they encroach.
you missed the VAR from Vancouver vs Houston in Week 28. Why is that?
Every review is covered in The Definitive Angle on proreferees.com.
I felt bad for Chapman having to call the handball on Nouhou. It was a harsh call but rules are the rules. However, now I hear VAR recommending no handball and I am rethinking Chapman's motivation. He usually calls a pretty good game but I felt that he wasn't as consistent as usual. That said, Sounders lost that game by themselves.
Rethinking his 'motivation'? That sounds like you spend too much time on social media.
In the Seattle v LA call the VAR and the referee overlooked the fact that LA 27 pushed the Seattle defender towards the goal, causing him to go to ground, this should have nullified any potential handball on the defender as he was extending his arm going to ground after he was fouled by an attacking player being pushed from behind under the IFA laws of the game.
The fact that PRO did not come out and blatantly say our guy screwed up, missed the push from behind and should not have awarded the penalty and continues to come up with defense of poor decisions with “it subjective so the referees decisions stands“ is unacceptable and continues to show why pro is inferior to the European officials.
Also, avoiding the Atlanta, New York review in both definitive angle and on CZcams when the video referee and referee failed to overturn a clear embellishment, and then less than a week later to have a video referee, not intervene for the same problem against the same club is a joke. if PRO wishes to be taken seriously more transparency is necessary and public disciplinary action against officials who are poor performers is necessary.
He wasn’t pushed down, he was already falling down and the attacker barely touched his ass.
And you talk about “transparency”, PRO’s inside video review and definitive angle is LITERALLY the most transparent any referee program in the world is. Get a clue and sit down.
PRO’s show and article will never discuss plays that weren’t sent for a review. There are probably 50+ plays that are checked for a few moments, but not sent down. For the play you’re talking about specifically, was it clear embellishment in the penalty area?
Public disciplinary action will always be a nonstarter.
Just because you don't like the laws of the game and the subjective call doesn't mean the PRO is out to get Seattle. The difference is PRO and Europe here is that in Europe the VAR would not recommend a review in such a situation where it's subjective and not clear and obvious.
I do appreciate you showing transparency in speaking of 'our guy'. It makes it easier to identify the bias opinions.
Every review is covered in The Definitive Angle on proreferees.com.
@@MrCho14 How about the fact that there were 2 offsides later in the game that were never called? or the handball by LAFC that wasn't called either? All the times that LA Floppers get away with flopping cause the yellow is given to the player they stepped in front of? Oh my god all the other Western Conference teams could go on n on about the blatant favoritism that LAFC receives from the refs. This is the exact reason that almost all the fans of Western Conference teams were rooting for Columbus to win the MLS Cup last year. We are sick of LAFC being allowed to get away with this BS by refs like Unkle and Chapman.
When you are falling forward with momentum you naturally put your hand out in front of you, not straight down or else you are going to carry on and face plant. Add to the equation the fact that the ball isn’t hit backwards until he is in the act of falling and I don’t see how anyone can logically claim it was intentional. Ergo, not intentional and also not an unnatural position. The ref botched this one despite VAR calling his attention to the mistake.
I think the video has this correct. It is absolutely a subjective judgment call. Many believe as you do. Many do not. Others are still confused as hell about what handling is for a defender. Given it is a judgment and not a clear error, VAR technically shouldn't have gotten involved, but I'm okay with the process here as the two sides both have legit arguments.
I've just about had it wit the handball rule. Imo, the "natural arm position" part has allowed way too many defenders to let their arms be too free.
I get it, if a ball is smacked a foot from a guy and their hand is covering their face, it's not a handball, but if it's outstretched, away from their body, natural or deliberate should not matter if it directly affects the attacking teams ability to play a ball towards goal. Whether it's a shot, pass, or cross, it doeant matter to me. Defenders should have to go back to needing to keep their arms at their side or behind their back like they used to. Stonewall pen for me.
While I don't like the rule either, as a Sounders fan I sadly have to agree that this was an unfortunate mistake that resulted in the only correct call Chapman made that entire game. Chapman was so bad that I legit thought it was Unkle on the field during the first half.
@@wolffriendinus oh yeah I was trying to say that I don't even understand why the rule is even written in a way that VAR is arguing it's NOT a pen.
I hear what you're saying and I agree that the handball rules are so frustrating because they can be interpreted a bunch of different ways. But, at the same time, defenders need to be able to run full speed. They need to be able to jump as high as they can. They need to be able to slide tackle or dive. It's really not possible to do any of these things to one's full potential if their arms are behind their backs or glued to their sides. Go try to slide tackle with your arms at your sides; it just doesn't work. Like I said, I get the frustration. I have no idea what a ref is going to consider a 'natural' position anymore. I see non-handballs called that I feel are obvious handballs and vice versa. There is huge inconsistency and it would be nice to see it buttoned down. I don't know what the solution is... but I do feel like defenders need to be able to move freely.
1:20 "on sides"...much cringe.
I'm not hearing the 's'. What is the cringe?
@@MrCho14Agreed. The attacking player is even with the defender next to him, if we go by the lines.