Load development by group consensus Part 1 Powder Charges
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- čas přidán 8. 03. 2023
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This test is a fun idea. Personally, I would start at 54.5 based on the given data. I am even more interested in how you are going to return those "borrowed" 190 Bergers to your friend though after shooting them. That would save me a lot of money if I learn that trick! 😀
🤣
I immediately thought the same thing about the "barrowed Bergers"!
Well, before all the Hornady podcasts, I would have said that you should go for 53.6 as it has the best ES / SD. Traditionally you get the powder burning as consistently as possible and then tune precision with OAL and barrel tuner.
Post the Hornady podcasts, I'd say that 3 rounds is impossible to pick any "best" from.
Honestly, going away from the "statistically significant" mentality has saved me a ton of time and helped me actually improve groups, rather than just burn out barrels and get lost in noise (because if your shooting that many rounds your barrel is so hot your data is trash anyway). 3 isn't statically significant but 9 is starting to be, 12 actually is. The trend tells you more than any single floating data point. Look at the target too. The best group was at the node you suggested. The second at the higher stability area, but that has the more consistent group. If pick that one.
I understand where they're coming from but they are doing a very different kind of work up than we are.
I’d explore between 54.4 and 54.6. I bet 54.5 would be a great place ;)
What I would do
This is genius idea for a series
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Assuming that no scope adjustments were made during the test, I would choose 54.6 based off of similar point of impact from the charge above and below it.
This is awesome! I think this will help tons of people on finding a load. Appreciate your dedication and help!
Thank you, I'm super excited about this and will doing more of this for sure.
Me too. Pretty excited to see what so many shooters who know SO much more than me recommend and what their thought processes are
54.5 looks like a good start. Great idea for a video! Thank you!
I like the minimum SD of 2.5 fps ... 53.6 grains. I'd load '+ & -' 1 grain around that. Problems with the front rest rules out the groupings that I consider important also.
I concur with Charles. I’d like to see 53.5, 53.6, and 53.7 if all three have good SD numbers I’d rock the 53.6 and move to a seating depth test.
Hello...@@Struttinhoyt88 It's unfortunate his target groups were affected by a faulty front rest adjustment because I would pick a load that had the least amount of vertical spread in the group 'first'.
This would show the near location of a barrel node and I would expect to see the groups and the load gn. & speed graph support each other.
Put more powder in it, to about 50.3, just a guess
This experiment is a great idea 😃
I´d go with the 53.6 load based on ES and SD. Would like to see how this load can be refined.
Agreed
53.6 would be my choice
54.4(54.5)looks the most forgiving. This is awesome btw and I'm excited!
Thank you and I'm glad you like the idea, I plan on doing more.
@@FClassJohn well I definitely plan on watching and participating. Thank you for this!
@@FClassJohn absolutely loving it
Based on that I would go with 54.4gr. I glad you said you had front rest issues while showing the target because without that info I would have said to try another powder.
Love it!
I think you need to watch a couple of the Hornady podcasts John.
Start with 054 "Ammunition Demystified" where they speak with Jeff Siewert. Then there's 050, "Your groups are too small",
then there is 052, "Your groups are still too small".
The cat's out of the bag now.
It's a thing already.
Based on OCW, I like 54.6 the best. 54.4, 54.6 and 54.8 all centered in roughly the same area. I thought the velocity was interesting, and while there was a flatter spot at the lower charges, I didn't feel like there was sufficient data to make any strong conclusions. All of the groups where 2 shots were very close, and the 3rd was significantly different lead me to believe that the velocity correlation isn't very strong.
Thank you for doing this test. This is how I do load development, 3 shot groups, with OCW and velocity recording simultaneously, and looking at both for patterns to help me pick the right load. I do load a 4th or 5th cartridge for each load, just to provide a little verification at the end if the patterns were looking good, or if I botch it, but I usually don't shoot them as part of the groups. Its great to watch a better marksman trying my own methods out.
Great interesting vid John
I'd go with 54.6 myself - I place stock in reading the groups and POI shifts, which is a part of the OCW doctrine/methodology. Since we're shooting mid-range, that's certainly acceptable, and we can probably get away with not knowing the velocity up until you've done your load development, zero'ed at 100, and have to dial out to 600. (We'll find out for sure, though!)
I think it's great that you did both the groups, and the velocity data - more data is always better! When I look at the graph, though, I see the ES's and SD's as indicative to one-another; it looks like our SD's are generally below 10, and our ES is about ~15-ish. All of these number would be really great for off-the-shelf ammo! I think someone trying to discern a velocity node within this set of data isn't seeing the forest for the trees; from 52.8 to 54.6 (almost two grains of powder) you only increase about 60 FPS. Now, I have to admit I am partly speaking from a place of ignorance because I am not the most familiar with the powder, or that cartridge, but to me it seems like you're *in* the velocity node.
Brilliant idea John---- 54.1 love it.
54.5 gets my vote but I like to have the highest velocity without excessive pressure. However, I am usually dealing with a hunting rifle that will likely never be "shot out" as strictly a hunting rifle. If I were trying to get as much life out of the barrel as possible and still be consistent, I would probably try near the 52.8-53.2 range. Even the blow off shots were holding pretty tight, I think there's something there. Love your content and hope to be able to join your Patreon soon!
A year of college statistics at a large university in Seattle, gives me confidence to say that you do not have enough variance to make any conclusion. Walt Berger said "learning begins at 300 yards" for a reason.
From a GROUP and SD/ES standpoint, I like a 54.3gr load because on either side of that (54.2 and 54.4) you should have a "average" SD of ~6.5 and ES of ~12, which gives you a good cushion on over/under powder drops. Second, those groups each have touching holes. You might also consider the 53.7 gr load because of the hole placement, BUT, the average would provide a wider variance on either side of it. Just my .02 and GREAT IDEA ON THESE VIDEOS!
I really like 54.5. Good es and sd with very little change in velocity between 54.4 and 54.6. Looks like a decent node. On top of that very little poi shift between those 2 charges.
What a great idea man good job!!!
Thank you, I think it'll be fun and I plan on doing this a few times with different components.
@@FClassJohn right on that’ll be cool you might be my first patreon subscription!!
@@jeffreypelletier7247 Thank you, I really appreciate that.
Ty that's awsome
Glad you like it.
Somewhere between 54.4 and 54.6. It flat lines there and the numbers are pretty even. Seating depth from there. 53.4 to 53.6 is not bad either but the numbers change alot more.
Great Idea, see real numbers, groups and data. I pick 53.6, low es and sd respectable speed, could be refined in the process.
Target points of impact aside, my vote is to jump in at 53.6. Looks like a possible speed node to me.
I'll play along on the CZcams side. My pick is 54.6. as many others have pointed out it looks to be the most stable through the POI looking glass of OCW.
Acoordingly to what I (me personally) see on the TARGET and what the data shows me I like 53 and 53.8. Of the two I will stick with 53.8 Yes I like single digit SD's and liked when they reflect that on THE TARGET 😉. Thanks John.
54.5 gr.
Great idea here John. Go with 53.6
Test 53.7 and 54.5. Pick the group that has lowest es and that prints simular or smaller group size to the prior load that's within +/-0.1 g
I'd go with 53.8. Group is great and velocity variation didn't affect group. I say this even if I realize that at longer ranges, the velocity has a much bigger effect.
54.6, POI same above and below. Nice clover shape, chart flat spot and low ES/SD.
54.4. 54.6 looks good in a group but the jump in velocity at 54.8 doesn't leave enough cushion if conditions change and the velocity increases.
54.1
For starting you’ll need to come back to a fine powder after seating, tuner, primer and primer seating for your fine powder test +/- .1 grain 10 rnds.
The V looks stable at 54.1
54.4 with a fine powder test to follow after initial seating dept test at 54.1, 54.2, 54.3 and on the other side 54.5, 54.6, 54.7
I'd say your best load will be one of three - 53.5, 53.6 or 53.7.
Most loads produced a "2 together and spit one" group indicating less than optimal combustion (except for 53.6-54.0). In that 53.6-54.0 range, ES/SD indicated 53.5 to 53.7 will probably be best.
I wish you could reshoot the test with the gear working right, but if I combine the graph and groups like I do in my development, I would go with 54.5
54.5/6. Do seating depth and then test a 10th or two either side.
Well, I know this has already been decided (because I watched the seating depth video first), but I think I would have gone 53.4
I was torn between 53.0, 53.4, and 53.8, but 53.4 seems like a good compromise. I have a hard time not sticking with 53.
if .2 of a grain changes your group size, you need a different powder, or work on your gun
Hands down 54.5, you can't deny that plateau.
That's where I'm headed if this is my graph.
Ok so this isn't patreon... based on the numbers I would look at & around 53.6gr for a load charge. Lowest ES and SD also running around 2850fps... should be close to an OBT velocity node there. This is going to be so much fun thanks for sharing the adventure
54.5gr is probably what id try. cheers John!
53gr. Due to the low differance in speed of 53.2gr and 52.8gr. Also i think the group shape of 53gr can easily be "tuned" with seeting depth.
I vote 53.6. Great idea for a video series.
I would go with 54.8, it had the better vertical. One thing I would throw out for the forum, I have tried all kinds of seating depths and found that a jam of -0.020" has out performed any jump. Would like to see what that would do in comparison when you get to the seating depth test. Thanks for sharing John.
53.6 this had the best ES of the bunch!
I think 54.4 has similar results on either side, has a little bit of cushion on + or -. Not sure what seat depth you started at but I would be starting .015 off the lands per results I have had with berger.
53.8 looks like a winner to me.
54.4 looks to be at edge of a velocity node and groups looked decent on either side. That’s where I would explore.
53.6 is where I would start my seating depth tests.
I'd reload between 54.3 and 54.7 in .1g increments and evaluate them again.
54.5 based off point of impact. 54.4-54.6 had same poi waterline. 54.8 was pretty close but trending up a bit on the velocity. So if put in a temp situation would probably throw everything off. So 54.5 is my choice.
I’d do 3 groups at 54.5 grains and I’d make one group at the same seating depth and one group +.003” and one group -.003” from the original seating depth.
Lowest ES load looks good to me but that specific load does fall in between two others that are not so great. I go for best ES and then play with BTO. I'm currently struggling to get a load to group which has an ES of 6.
54.5 is where I would settle at, then some gross seating depth ( .010” increments + and - ) 5 more loads, ensuring the front rest was no longer a variable
53 looks good
I would load at 53.6 & 54.5. Since you had problems with your rest, I would want to recheck the 53.6 load, as the data was pretty compelling, but the groups around 54.4 to 54.6 looked more consistent.
Based on es and sd I would start at 54.6. Es and sd are good between 54.4 and 54.8.
Based on this i would think 54.5gn would be a good Spot / POI looks good from 54.4 to 54.6
yes when you only look on ES it would be 53.6 but both sides dont look great and on Target 53.6 looks ugly dont know if it was of your Problems with the Frontrest
I would stick with the lower node at 2820ish, one thing I do know about the 190's is they do not like speed. They also are not pointed correctly and have a variable bto because of it. But I got sucked into buying a bunch, so still trying to make them work. The faster nodes exaggerate the bullet inconsistencies, ie major flyers. They are a frustrating bullet, they will seem to be grouping ok, then wack, they don't.
Im voting for 54.5, looks like it will have room for error both ways. Also what was the temp when you shot these? 54.5 could give you better temp stability as well if developed in the avg temp you general compete at
@F-Class John What was the wind like for this data? I know it's just 100 yards, but you mentioned forgetting something about your rest. I really like 53.6 with it's low ES & SD, but would like to play with 54.5 & 54.7 to see where it's data lands. Surely, one can make up for vertical, if all play out as planned. Are you going to finalize the test at 1000 yards? Or keep it at 100 yards?
54.5gr would be my recommendation as it is in the middle of the higher node seen. The lower node at 53gr wasn't as large or as flat.
Need to know the neck tension and the primer
54.5 looks like a good start...
53,6 low sd 53,7 or 53,8 is the set
What software did you use for the graph?
I believe I would try the 54.5 and then play with the bullet sitting to start with
What I would find interesting is a graph of charge weight vs SD overlaid on a graph of load density vs SD.
My question: Is there such thing as a load density sweet spot ie) a target optimal range of load density within which, the most consistent loads exist?
Unfortunately it would technically require larger sample size testing to answer such a question with statistically significant confidence.
Also, if optimal load density and optimal SD do correlate, then would it not be smart to hold your seat depth constant and tune with a barrel tuner instead of varying seat depth which changes both combustion and timing?
54.5 is what I would load.. classic ocw identified node
I like 54.8 due to no vertical but id like to see 55 and 55.2 to see if it opens up .
53.6 looks like the winner. ES=5 SD=2.5. I'd like to see 53.5 test.
Where can you get that particular target you're using? Also, I'm sure you've covered this before, and if so can you either link the video or provide a description of how you do that velocity graph with multiple data points at each charge weight?
my vote is 53.2 area I like low node always seems more forgiving.
53.6 because of consistency. I rarely chase velocity.
54.4 since you have 2 other loads in the same range that is almost producing the same ES and SD. The 53.6 looks to be a anomaly in terms of the data.
Thank you for the information. BUT how I know what size should I use for seating deep = 0.0020" from the land? or that point doesn't matter for the load development, please somebody explain that point. thank you.
From 54.4 to 54.8 to my mind (consistent point of impact). Since it's a group test dont look at the graph.
54.5, based on velocity change from 54.4 to 54.6 and average POI (vertical).
Although with a similar looking set of data on 6.5cm my decision was “I need a new barrel!” 😂
53.6 looks like the most stable by graph
I would use 54.5 gr. And start adjusting seating depth
Looking at 53.4gr it has a +17fps, The next load increase .2gr has a very small increase in fps but the best ES / SD. Now go to your 54.8 has a +22 fps with a decent ES /SD.
If it were me and if safe I would see if an increase to 54.9 would result in similar fps and decrease ES / SD.
Sticking with what is shown 53.4 is what I would go with, but I would graph 53.3gr and 53.5gr. to verify.
Or down .1gr from 54.8
I’m guessing to keep the narc at bay I guess you kept the little things that go into your reloading a rifle round a secret family recipe step right John I hope.
Where can I find, or can you recommend, a starting load for N-555 in a 7 PRC?
Personally I don't like to chase my tail on ES and SD until I see whats going on with the target. It looks to me that 53 grains and 53.8 are both nodes that can be played with if you going to try working with seating depth. Or some do skip finding a seating depth challenge and just go straight to the tune. I'm not sure what caliber/cartridge you are using and are you running a load at least 99% capacity?
I feel less bad about my work / loading bench being cluttered and a bit of a mess.
im loading 53.6 and 54.6 and shooting both for groups and speeds
54.5 grains is where I would start.
54.7 grains (whats the current temp?) the other holes (lower grains) doesnt look like the bullet has stabilized completely
I'm not a speed freak... I'd go with
John, where can i purchase targets like this ?
On the low end 53.5 and on the high end 54.5.
54.5. I like 53.6 but the data surrounding it is noisy. Maybe it's a nice, maybe luck, maybe it's a really unstable node, but it's at best touchy.
54.5 in that nice flat spot
I would go 54.4 for further testing.
53 .8 is what I would start with
54.45 would be my pick can the trickler make it happen?
Couple of questions. Do you have a minimum velocity you’re after to help buck the wind? That would certainly narrow down the field a bit. Also, is there a point in that test where you felt uncomfortable with the recoil? If recoil was all good I would head right to the highest charge weight.
In this test I wasn't looking to do anything in any particular speed range and recoil was good.