Why I disliked CINDERELLA | 10 Problems with The West End Musical
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
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So a little while ago I promised you all a longer video detailing my issues with the script, score and structure of Andrew Lloyd Webber’s newest musical, CINDERELLA.
Today I am finally bringing you that video with my definitive list of the top 10 issues I had with the show ranging from its lyrics to its costume design!
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"Let's break stereotypes and show how women doesn't have to fit in boxes" at the same time you throw the "skinny blondes are dumb and superficial" trope in your whole show 👍
Exactly 🙃
THIS IS THE PROBLEM! This show isn’t remotely as progressive as it thinks it is. It follows the logic of a 13 year old going through their NLOG goth phase. Suggesting that only one singular woman in a whole town of women is respectable *is* sexist.
Yeah its quite shallow and disapointing in my opinion
Storytellers seem to have a problem lifting women up without tearing other women down
For a show about how as a girl you don’t have to be blonde/thin, conform to stereotypes the fact Prince Charming’s Husband is a buff gym bunny just pushes the narrative that gay men only have value if they are pretty. Why couldn’t his silent husband be chubby/bear etc etc. It really jars
YES...they do that literally in every show/movie about a non conforming girl...the male lead is stereotypically buff and attractive.
@@NairAthul absolutely. Hairspray, Muriel’s Wedding to name but two
Beauty standards in the gay community is really judgmental and hard to obtain.
@@Jays6926 and leads to people having huge insecurities and/or body dysmorphia
TRULY
When I saw this show I was so baffled because the women were all in Bridgerton-esque period costumes slightly modernised, then the men appear in essentially fetish wear?! They were almost all shirtless the whole show!
Can we just make it a rule that the next person saying they're gonna make a "feminist " version of Cinderella, we'll all just tell them to fuck off.
Not one of the retellings of Cinderella in the past five years has been the great feminist retelling the producers claim it to be.
News Flash Hollywood/Broadway.
You don't have to make Cinderella Feminist. Making Cinderella have "girl power energy" doesn't make her feminist. CINDERELLA IS ALREADY A FEMINIST BY SIMPLY BEING A WORN STRIVING TO IMPROVE HER LIFE WITHOUT HURTING OTHERS.
Disney Cinderella (og)
Ever After
Ella's Enchanted
Brandy's Cinderella
And Cinderella Story
Are classics cause they make new and constructive changes to the story while playing Cinderella as Cinderella.
Not this "girl power " edgy " I'm not like other girls " Parody of her.
If you have nothing good to add to the story. Don't try to change it.
👏
When Cinderella had that song about how she wished she could've had a better relationship with her steosistrs in Sofia the First that was more feminist than 90% of "modern" Cinderella retellings and that a Disney Channel show for toddlers.
(Look it up, it's called "True Sisters. It's not groundbreaking by any means, but it does add a bit of female solidarity to the Cinderella story which is refreshing)
@@juliamavroidi8601 I know the song and I 100% agree. Understanding that the cruelty you endured was unfair and not but also having the capacity to understand the reality of her and her sisters situation and wanting to connect with them is alot more feminist that the "not like other girls mentality."
I also like how Disney expanded of this idea through Cinderella 2and3 where in both timeliness Cinderella and Anastasia form a strong sisterly relationship.
I'd argue that the movie Ella Enchanted isn't feminist (it's the stereotypical Hollywood "feminism" that is actually anti-feminist) but the book certainly is feminist!
While the saving herself part is a lil more the cliche hollywood feminism, Ever After is a pretty decent attempt at feminist Cinderella, having nuanced relationships between Cinderella and the stepsisters and stepmother
The godmother, when she gave the necklace to Sebastian, said something like 'Take this as a reminder of what you didn't see.' Let's forget about how that isn't particularly interesting or well-written, but I remember hearing like an 'Oooo' from the audience, as if she made a good point. It immediately annoyed me, to the point where I actually audibly said 'Why are you ooooing?'. Luckily there was nobody sat near me. She didn't make a good point. Sebastian is the only character in the whole show that liked her as she always was. He was the only one that saw her. The only time he didn't 'see' her was because the godmother herself effectively disguised Cinderella, changing Cinderella away from how Sebastian loved her, so I echo your sentiment of 'where does she get off?!'.
I always thought it would be better if Cinderella gave the shoes back to the godmother and she gives the necklace back saying that something like “here’s a reminder of who you nearly lost… yourself”. Reminding her that she didn’t need to change to get Sebastian to marry her.
nothing in this show made sense. i know it sounds harsh but me and my friends gave up very quickly and just started laughing at cringy lines that seemed to appear anytime any character opened their mouth 😭😭
I feel your pain I CANT STAND when audiences will ooh at the most asinine lines the writers wasted their evenings with
The best “realistic Cinderella story” I’ve ever seen wasn’t a modernized girl boss piece musical that wanted to make Cinderella a young entrepreneur or goth or anything. It was Ever After, which told an ACTUALLY realistic story of Cinderella, where Ella has agency and a strong presence in the story without needing to make her a bitter person or changing the original story too much. It simply took the fantastical elements and made them into things that were possible in real life, including making the time frame for them falling in love longer and adding depth to the prince and stepmother.
Yeah - a feminist retelling of Cinderella isn’t so much about changing the story itself but how Cinderella herself is written. Is she written to be sympathetic and complex or as a shallow character?
I do like some of the story retellings like book Ella Enchanted, but that’s largely because her character is well written. It probably helps when they’re written by women.
Ever After has one of my favorite resolutions to her relationship with her stepfamily, too. Not only is one of the stepsisters unwilling to go along with her family’s plan, but you get the *incredible* line about how Ella will never think of her stepmother again but the stepmother will think of her every day for the rest of her life. It’s so emotionally satisfying-a perfect blend of revenge and forgiveness.
@@bigjedimullet Which Ever After are you talking about? I swear I recognize that line you mentioned, and I want to find out if I do, but there's so many stories called Ever After xD
@@coyotesvods3841 It's the one with Drew Barrymore as Ella. BY FAR my favorite adaptation!
ever after has its own issues but otherwise an okay retelling imo disneys cinderella is also a decent telling of the tale and many just have not seen it recently enough to realize cinderella was not a brainless victim but a woman w personality doing her best to survive
I think a slightly more interesting rewrite would be to write The Queen as a figure similar to Lord Farquad in Shrek: a character so overly obsessed with perfection they’ve taken it to manic, dictatorial extremes. There is a dress code for everything (akin to over-the-top sumptuary laws): types of colors and fabric to be worn based on your class, approved hairstyles, approved building styles, compulsory makeup, etc. This extends to the lower classes: Despite having little money, the “peasants” must live a la the Petit Trianon. They must spend their money and time creating “idyllic country villages” with perfect houses and rolling hills and meadows of wildflowers and docile animals being led around on long lengths of ribbon. They are only allowed to wear floaty, cottage-core gowns made of expensive materials. This would make the plot point of growing unrest and the threat of a peasant revolt far more believable, especially if Cinderella were starting to stir them up by refusing to comply to said laws.
Yes! It's in dire need of a villainous reason for the perfection forced on the town and having the godmother and the queen controlling their people this way, and by making the individuals view it as their responsibility to be beautiful for the good of their country (via the competition) gives some reason for their mistreatment of Cinderella who isn't seen to be doing her part.
I really like how you write
YES
There’s a bit of this in the Terry Pratchett book ‘Witches Abroad’. It’s not the entire book but there is an element of that there 😊
Couldn't agree more about how weird it is that they talk about how unattractive Sebastian is when he's clearly very conventionally attractive. When he shows up in the opening number, he walked on as clearly a well dressed, confident, good looking young man, if a little shy. I felt so uncomfortable when the female chorus lay into what a disappointment he was -who by my memory when I saw it, were all white. It was so WEIRD. Why not just dress Sebastian as a goth like Cinderella or at least make his mannerisms really awkward?
The best thing about Cinderella by far were the immensely talented cast and creatives.
Michael i could sort of understand it as he's not amazingly good looking but Ivano is so attractive....
I'd just chalk it up to the kingdom having WACK beauty standards.
I really appreciate you highlighting the apparent internalised misogyny of the show. The show, and by proxy Cinderella herself, are hardly empowering when it takes every opportunity for the female characters to tear other women down! It just perpetuates the very dated idea that all cosmetic surgery is bad and anyone who has it is vapid and shallow.
THIS!
I mean... it's Lloyd Webber lmfao. Dude has never written a decent female character in his life.
@queer libtard hippie All true, but I think a lot of us were hoping for something fairly decent considering Emerald Fennell wrote the book for Cinderella.
@@queerlibtardhippie9357 Not to give him credit but from what I can tell he didn’t write the book - Emerald Fennel did? It’s still weird that fennel would let this slide though (even if ALW would probably have been involved somewhat in the creative process the main themes of the show would be down to Fennell…)
@@queerlibtardhippie9357 I dont disagree after all he only writes the music kind of messes up your snyde comment really.
I always thought it would be better if Cinderella gave the shoes back to the godmother and she gives the necklace back saying that something like “here’s a reminder of who you nearly lost… yourself”. Reminding her that she didn’t need to change to get Sebastian to marry her. That way the godmother’s action seem more like she was trying to teach her a lesson and somewhat involves in the plot more. Plus, I think it would have been better if the godmother is either 1) seen around town with the ensemble to highlight how she creates this perfect image or 2) her shop is not in the town but hidden in the forest/unknown and Cinderella stumbles on it by mistake while trying to get to the ball. That way the character would feel slightly more magical and exposes how Cinderella felt pressured to conform to a society she hates for love.
That sounds way better
I saw Cinderella and the prince of Egypt on consecutive nights, which just highlighted the flaws of Cinderella in comparison to TPOE. Cinderella's staging and use of ensemble lacked imagination - the characters felt one-dimensional and the songs all sounded very similar.
I saw those 2 shows a week apart and Prince of Egypt was absolutely incredible (although at times it had sound design issues, but I couldn't fault it apart from that).
Heh- prince of Egypt forgot how to create a wide effect, the projection ceiling just killed off most of the immersion for me. Improved drastically when it was flown up for the finale - that improvement wasn't worth the loss from having it there up until then.
Not to mention we’ve already had like 1000 Cinderella stories. We do not need another one.
Exactly! Also, none of them seem to touch on the fact that Cinderella was basically abused by her stepmother, and just expect her to be a strong independent woman, which is just very toxic thinking for people in her situation. If they want a fairytale with an active female protagonist, why not adapt Goose Girl (particularly the version written by Shannon Hale)?
They need to make one about princess and the frog
@@the-ma-an as an aspiring actress I literally would die to play a Cinderella in a story that focuses on the trauma afterwards. Like she literally gets her step mother beheaded and then everyone at the palace thinks she’s insane because she has trauma and she can barely keep herself together. And it’s a whole story about her deteriorating mental health and how she struggles to fit in an environment that is chocking her and only causing her more trouble. And marital issues between the Prince and her. Aaaa you know what I want to write a book
@@mystii8134 That sounds like an awesome idea!! You should go for it!
No they they because I watch every cinderella thing they make and I am holding Hollywood hostage.
Completely agree with a lot of these (haven't seen the show but listened to it) - seems like a couple reworkings could've fixed a lot of the issues, which is frustrating. If the Godmother had been a proper villain, then another female character (one of the stepsisters, a friend) could've filled the actual role of the godmother in the fairy tale by being an ally for Cinderella. And in terms of the aesthetics it is quite an odd choice to have a show about how everything has to be 'beautiful' and then not define what that means for the world of the show (and they seem to have gone with conventional beauty standards but it's fiction so they could've done anything!).
Shrek 2 set the standards for a well written villain fairy godmother IMHO
Apparently ALW thinks he is such a wonderful composer that he doesn’t have to conform to the function of songs in a musical (to move the story forward) because his songs are so wonderful (in his own mind). I agree that the songs in this show are terrible!!
You should contribute some of the songs you have written.
@@MondoMiami My songs are written for a different purpose, but I have performed in musical theatre long enough to recognize well-written pieces:)
I saw the show back in September, and everyone in my party could agree on the show feeling a bit preachy; both regarding the whole "perfection isn't perfect and is actually just about looks" thing, but mainly the woke LGBTQ+ ally vibes from the homoerotic subtext for all male ensemble members and the inclusion of "marry for love". It just felt like a strange departure so that ALW could say "see queer community, I like you; I like you so much that I wrote a song for you in my musical". Don't get me wrong, I think it's really important for us to be represented in all forms of media, but the show just felt like it was speaking for the sake of speaking, not to actually take a stance or action. The pacing also felt off (which is something I find as a fault in all of ALW's musicals), and like you said the songs are too ballad centric.
Despite all of this I genuinely enjoyed the show. Did it move me? not past the literal moving of the audience; but watching the show was an enjoyable experience, and I've found myself frequently listening to the album ever since seeing the show.
I love the show but I agree with the godmother statement:
Maybes if they leaned towards the villain aspect more then it could be really badass.
Just my thoughts
Yeah I got Ursula vibes
@@cannotthinkofausername6379 I got the same vibes. Glad it wasn’t me and that’s what I thought the godmother was going to be the villain
@@keircollects I wouldn’t mind as it would have been something different from what we all have seen.Maybe she does good but when Prince Charming comes in with his secret bf then she goes all villiany…just my thoughts
@@keircollects I also got Disney Ursula vibes from her as well.
Very Ursula; the main character arrives at the lair which is empty and the owner unseen. It’s dark and creepy and the witch belittles her a little and then exacts something personal as payment by manipulating her into putting aside herself for her man.
The circles of light running around the stage really sold the creepy vibe for me, I was really begging Cinderella not to get involved. A more malevolent take on the role could work very well if you really pushed it. I’m not sure I’d want that, but imagine if she was at the ball and was the one who forced Adele to kiss the Prince to stop Cinderella or even just slyly pointed out the bells to Cinderella etc.
Completely agree about the relationships between the female characters. I enjoyed it overall but struggle to see what is so modern or different about the story. I would have loved to see Cinderella’s Soliloquy as the final song in which she decides to be free and single.
Not sure it is about toxic females, since the male relationships aren't any better. Prince hates the courtiers, who also despise him. The town usually thinks the prince is worthless. Neither the female nor the male siblings are supportive. The only semi-supportive relationship is the Prince and Cinderella, and most of the healthy stuff was the past or promised for the future.
also 'Cinderella's 5 million sad reprises' killed me.
Call me shallow but when I'd listened to one or two songs I got an urge to play multiple versions of The Stepsisters' Lament from the Rogers and Hammerstein version.
Totally agree with your analysis. I thought the show was really quite poor. The plot was so loose and silly that it felt like a panto at times. Considering Emerald Fennell had just won an Oscar, I don’t think it was unreasonable to expect a bit more.
A few problems that I had with the show:
- I felt the songs were all written with a view to having a hit rather than to actually tie in with and advance the plot. ALW seemed to want mostly songs that could be used in auditions and school talent shows. Also felt a bit like the songs were recycled songs that didn’t make it in to previous shows. Didn’t think it was his most creative or inspired work.
- Maybe I missed the explanation, but I found it jarring that Cinderella was a notorious badass around town but still acted like a servant to her stepmother and stepsisters at home. I thought the Disney live action movie neatly addressed why Cinderella stuck around with the whole ‘Have courage and be kind’ mantra and the fact that she loved the house her parents lived in, but I didn’t think the ALW show explained it properly.
- Felt the necklace was poorly explained - kind of an important plot point but not really an important plot point. Felt like it survived from an earlier version of the script or something.
- Finally, my biggest disappointment with the plot was that I felt it sucked all the magic out of the story. The tale of Cinderella has two major identifiers: a magical fairy godmother and a glass slipper that brings the couple together. Without those elements you could be watching any old story, and they make the other key elements of Cinderella (wicked stepmother, a prince, a ball, midnight) make sense because they’re part of the familiar narrative. Like you, I thought the fairy godmother character was very poorly defined and as far as a I can tell doesn’t use magic? So she’s neither a fairy nor a godmother to Cinderella which makes her, what, a vaguely malevolent random person in town? Also makes nonsense of the ‘midnight’ element.
And the shoes. The shoes! The glass shoes are what makes it Cinderella! Yes, she wore them, but I don’t remember them being important in bringing the story to a conclusion. Maybe I’m forgetting as I saw it back in August, but all I remember is Cinderella throwing one of the shoes at Sebastian. I felt that the shoe element could have been developed without having to slavishly stick to the original story, which I admit would not vibe with the rest of the show.
I know it’s a retelling/reimagination of the fairytale, but in my opinion the fairy godmother and glass slipper are indispensable parts of the story and are what give it magic and sparkle. Downplaying them makes it less ‘Cinderella’ and makes nonsense of the other elements of the plot that rely on it *being* Cinderella.
Anyway, that’s my two cents! The show has some good elements too, but I agree it would have benefitted from some rewrites.
You’ve put all my issues with the show together beautifully, way better than I can!
I really wanted to like it but spent the whole show questioning the plot, forgetting the forgettable songs and just generally going ‘Eh?’
As someone who's not seen the show, but has listened to the album several times, and seen the full audio on CZcams, I really want to see it. I'm a huge Carrie Hope Fletcher fan and I honestly personally don't think the music is bad, in fact I really enjoy most of the songs.
My personal favorites are;
- Bad Cinderella
- Unfair
- Man's Man (parts of it)
- Only You Lonely You
- Beauty Has a Price
- Moment of Triumph
- Ego Has a Price
- Cinderella's Soliloquy
But I will say that there's still something small wrong in each song,
eg. 'Plexiglass houses' in Bad Cinderella doesn't match the set design
Some songs, like Buns 'n' Roses are a mess in my opinion but I still really want to see the show to see the changes they made.
Thank you for reading this very long comment.
I don’t think it’s literal plexiglass houses, it’s a metaphor
Plexiglass houses doesn't work anyway, Lloyd Webber tries to mix his metaphors way too much. 'Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' is clearly the intended saying, but Plexiglass is supposed to be strong and difficult to break, completely ruining the whole message of the town's hypocrisy
@@abbiemcpartland1968 to be completely fair to alw he didn’t write the lyrics, although I’d still blame him for not calling the lyric writer out (David Zippel I think?)
I just don't like the song bad cinderella at all. I skip over that song. The chorus is just kind of annoying. The song could have been skipped, and I don't think it'd make a difference lol. I'm sure there's plenty of dialog to express how she's a rebel and doesn't care what they think. But otherwise I really enjoy the soundtrack. I think the story flows nicely on the soundtrack. But man hearing all the details of inbetween the songs, sounds like it's better to listen to just the soundtrack than to watch the actual show. Lol. Besides I heard they took out the vanquished song. And that is by far the most interesting song of the whole track lol.
Soooo glad someone has pointed out the internalised misogyny all the female characters seem to have in this show. Don't get me wrong I went to see it and really really enjoyed it, but thinking back the way the women are presented really irritates me haha. Like how Sebastian describes all of the other girls at the ball as 'bimbos' just cos he's not interested in them personally. And cinderella is supposedly a 'feminist' character but she tears down all the other women for how they choose to dress. Idk just a lot of the character choices didn't sit right with me lol
Its just so awkward and convoluted like the characters are unable to make a decision about anything relevant or not. They just throw out things like that for no reason and then never follow up because the story never does
I’m quite ambivalent about the show, so I think I agree with a lot of what you say. I quite liked what they’d done with the decorations around the stage, and the use of the revolve during the ball was great, however from my seat (2nd row circle) I then lost view of about half the stage.
I had the same view and was stunned what a good view my friends and I had throughout the first half, but totally, once the ball began it became quite hard to see some bits, especially almost all of Cinderella’s arrival and interaction with Sebastian.
@@richardbourton4523 you'll both be happy to know they give the front two rows booster cushions now.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the whole love story conflict between Cinderella and Sebastian was an "it would be over in two seconds if they just talked to each other" kind of conflict. I've never seen the show, but listening to five sad Cinderella reprises about how heartbroken she is in act 2 I was like JUST HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE GUY lol
i went to see it for my birthday in october as i’m a big fan of carrie. i did enjoy it, however i felt like the first half was quite slow. the songs were quite repetitive and the female characters weren’t as empowering as i hoped they would be. but i absolutely LOVED the ball scene, it was truly magical. there is a lot of hype around this show, considering this is alw’s production. i have read one of emerald fennel’s other books (i think cinderella was a book?) called monsters and i thoroughly enjoyed that. but this show needs more dynamics i think. especially at the beginning, buns and roses didnt exactly make me very excited or really engrossed in the production. i think the opening song should be a bit more gripping. but that’s just my opinion :)
This has been getting to me the past few videos, but where did u get your theatre cushions from!
I know...I NEED them.
They are from redbubble haha! I get that question VERY often! 😂
I am surprised why ALW didn't take on criticism and change things. Look at Starlight Express for example that has had so many revisions. Tbh the majority of his shows have had rewrites during previews as he has acknowledged the faults. However, I think it didn't change probably due more to Emerald Fennell. I think Emerald has treated this more like a film and has obviously locked it in very early on and probably refused. That's just the vibe I'm getting from the show. I haven't seen the show since previews, don't get me wrong I enjoyed it but I was the same as you and came out kinda meh. I think it would of probably closed by now if Carrie wasn't in it as she has a huge following and tickets will be sold as long as she is in it. I do feel it can be a solid show if they just gave it one more look.
Yeah, I actually don’t get the vibe that ALW is wholly responsible for the faults as from what I know of his past work he’s fine with really substantial rewrites (even with really unworkable shows like Love Never Dies which has probably received, like, 50 rewrites by now) Maybe if Cinderella transfers somewhere else eg Broadway they might actually consider changing, as from what I can tell a lot of the problems can be relatively easily rectified and the show isn’t fundamentally bad. I don’t know much about the show though so I could be spouting nonsense.
It's so refreshing to see somebody agree with my own complaints. I left the theatre genuinely shocked by the level of body shaming (fat shaming, toxic masculinity, and mocking men by implying they have a small penis) and the strange anti feminist messages that are littered throughout. Given all the comments directed towards incredibly slim actresses telling them they need to lose weight, I was hoping to see some resolution to this (especially given the lack of plus sized cast members) but at no point do these women learn they are not big in the slightest, and ALL bodies are beautiful. I'm fairly certain Cinderella had Botox? Or at the very least some minor plastic surgery before going to the ball. That in itself is not an issue, but it's heavily implied by the reactions she gains that she is only beautiful and of any worth to the general population AFTER having surgery. Sebastian is labelled ugly, and there are comments on his lack of a jawline that I'm sure would make people with less prominent jawlines feel self conscious. A whole song celebrating toxic masculinity and implying REAL men can't be slim, gentle, or emotional. The music is sub par and poorly integrated into the actual show, Cinderella is portrayed as 'better than' simply because she dresses differently. But the way she looks is as carefully constructed and put together as the townsfolk, so she evidently does care about her appearance. The only two LGBTQ+ characters are not explored, and one of them quite literally doesn't speak. He's only there to be objectified, and to grind on his husband during some uncomfortably sexual choreography that feels out of place given the tone of the show. The dialogue is painful sometimes, it feels like a boomer trying to speak like gen z. I'm pretty sure Sebastian calls somebody a knob? Nob? I haven't heard that phrase since school, and it was so jarring to hear in the show. I have so many more complaints, but overall the show is incredibly outdated, and incredibly toxic. I've seen people say they won't take their young children to see it, and honestly, they shouldn't. There are a lot of harmful values that could be sub consciously internalised by impressionable young people. And even teeangers/adults. I thought we were beyond shows like this being celebrated by the masses but apparently we still have a lot to learn about why writing like this is dangerous, and problematic.
Yes, yes and yes!
I've just read that it's going back into rehearsals. Can you confirm that? If so ALW must be taking heed of the criticism. I've got tickets for the 17th November matinée so really hoping I actually get to see something.
Hi, I think even if it is going back into rehearsals the show still continues and they just rehearse during the day (when there is not a matinee). I went to see it today so i'm sure next week will be fine - they would have contacted you if not - hope you enjoy it! x
@@oliviaroberts5673 Thanks! I'm looking forward to seeing it.
The singing part of this video reminded me of the part where Cinderella literally just sings a reprise of her 2 ballads one after the other and they didn't even flow into each other. I genuinely sat there and thought "is ALW actually winding us up? Like, is this a joke?"
Given the show’s massive snub at the Oliviers (save for Victoria Hamilton-Barritt’s nomination for Best Supporting Actress), would it complete its run by February next year? Or when Carrie leaves this July? Are the Broadway prospects still on the cards?
Just casually predicted the future right here^^
@@ellie.preston Good thing that Mickey Joe did a video essay on Cinderella’s controversial closing! ALW’s flop era continues lolz
@@kareninacarado ikr he’s pretty much the official narrator of all ALW controversy😂
This is the first show I’ve ever seen where when a song started all I could think was “oh God, not again”. And I ADORE Carrie’s voice. I get chills just about every time she sings, but the amount of times a character came on stage, everything stopped, and they sang a ballad got so tiring by the end. Especially because just about every song in the show felt like they went on about a minutes too long.
One of the worst offenses was when Cinderella sings Far Too Late (a 4.5 minute song), immediately runs offstage, and the next time we see her she’s running BACK onstage and reprising the same exact song we just heard 10 minutes ago.
I saw a preview performance, so I HOPE this has been removed but don’t forget Cinderella getting sexually harassed at the ball and Sebastian laughing it off. The men in this show are horrid and no one ever calls them out.
The transformation is terrible, especially compared with what we know can be done, and considering the role was written for Carrie the colouring of the make up, wig and dress is so unflattering on her!
And regarding the step-mothers costumes, that weird one you mentioned is costume I have seen in panto several times, it’s not even an original idea.
Sexually harrased?!?!! %% wait howww
Grow up
@@cowardsallaround98lol
There were so many positive reviews that I was glad, when CZcams out of nowhere suggested your video. I watched a performance of Cinderella this week and I really was underwhelmed. There are a few catchy songs, especially Cinderellas theme that in ALW fashion is used way too often. Otherwise many of the songs sound lazy party music with a default percussion beat on your keyboard. What I also don't get: why does the stage and the first rows move during the ball. I sat in front row and was quite excited about it. But you just turn for 1-2 minutes, then it stops and you have the view from the opposite side for about 20 minutes, but it doesn't give an additional value whatsoever. I expected it to be some kind of immersive experience, that you turn around while the ball takes place. But it was so senseless in the end like many decisions that made it into the musical. At the end I got the feeling, that ALW wanted to have the rotating stage/rows just before "Soldier of Orange" opens in the Docklands with a full 360° rotating audience.
I agree with your very perceptive analysis here. I think the main issue is that musically ALW has lost his grip (such as it was), the book is trite and lacking in real wit and the lyrics are simply not up to standard. I suspect ALW cannot be criticized, especially as he was very vocal in his comments about the lack of government support for performing arts during covid, which many people agree with, and as the grand old man of musicals, critics and colleagues would be reluctant to take him down.
Point 1: ALW has stated that he doesn't like dialogue, and his early successes avoid it. Hence he's never good at dialogue to music transitions.
Point 2: Too many solo ballads - reflective solos are easier to write than more complex numbers involving more characters. These songs are generic because again it is easier for ALW not to have to be concerned about character either in lyrics or music. So what's new?
Point 3: Just 'Yes'. The show is sloppily constructed from a dramaturgical point of view. The whole thing feels as if it was put together in a hurry.
Point 4: Yes! Hypocrisy! Put your money where your mouth is! Both actors were far too attractive to be considered a poor alternative to the 'handsome prince'. Where was the male equivalent of CHF? Why not Scott Folan in this role?
Point 5: Costuming reflects Pantomime. There is an uneasy nod to panto throughout this show (rude sexual humour) as if a Cinderella can only be treated in this way by Brits.
Point 6: The Godmother is really a one-hit solo turn in this show. Not a character at all.
Point 7: The lack of emotion or emotional connection here is startling. There are no 'stakes', nothing to get really worried about.
Point 8: Stepmother/Queen relationship - 2 bitchy middle-aged women - is very tired, especially to an old person like me.
Point 9: Yes, again totally inconsistent and un-thought through. The whole thing feels like an extended 10-minute sketch rather than a full-length musical.
Point 10: Is a film scriptwriter OK to write a stage musical? The hate here is again reminiscent of how these characters work in the Panto Cinderella which hangs over the whole show.
Final point: If this show was entered anonymously for a musical theater competition would it even make the final shortlist?
My aunt was talking to me about how horrible this was last month, she passed away 2 weeks ago so I will forever be against it
I am so sorry for your loss.
Thank you for scratching that itch!!! I went to see it in July and came away with lots of questions/ feelings about it that just didn’t seem right and you’ve articulated them so clearly!! There’s a few more I could add but I was so disappointed. I absolutely love CHF and she continues to rock it what ever happens but the music and the plot will not go on to be a classic for sure!! I don’t think Cinderella will ever shake its pantomime association. Thanks again
Re the script's coyness about which aspects of Cinderella and Sebastian's looks they're bullied over- it strikes me as a little cowardly. The audience can read the implications: Sebastian is the only non white man, Cinderella is the only non thin person in the cast, and the plot is about how neither of them fit in aesthetically. There's not much room for multiple interpretations. So, without naming them, the writers have used racism and anti-fatness as significant components of the story. Not only as themes but as devices which spur the action. They shouldn't then be squeamish about calling these things what they are.
I feel like a braver show would have said "this woman is bullied for not being thin- and that's not right! This man is told that his race is ugly, and that's unacceptable!" Refusing to be specific doesn't fool anyone, but it kind of shirks the responsibility of making a specific statement.
And then, by not having the townspeople say explicitly, "I think you're ugly because you're X", the script never properly refutes that. As in, it ends with the implication that beauty standards are narrow and harmful, but it never specifically says "the townspeople were wrong because non white and non thin people ARE beautiful."
Oh my gosh. You put it perfectly about the songs just ... arriving. It was very jarring. Was struggling to know what was bothering me about it. The songs didn't also build on each other that well and didn't always gel. Also yes about some of them being too long, and too many ballads.
That being said, some of them do stand alone as beautiful songs - and I wonder if they work better that way.
Everything is so implied and vague that I can project worldbuilding onto it and that upsets me, that I have to make that much of an effort
Love your thoughts and reviews, MickeyJo! Need for a dramaturg, BRILLIANT! Can't wait for its Broadway debut, but hope ALW is listening!
Totally appreciate all your thoughts x I personally enjoyed the show but I can also see why people would have mixed/negative thoughts on it as well x
The worst thing is the treatment of the cast upon closure, don’t think I’ll ever get over that
A very thorough and intelligent review. Love the mo and the mouse (Mickey)...great you're supporting Movember ❤️
For me, if this was created by any other person then this would be way more like than it is, but obviously having ALW's name attached means people compare it to the mega musicals he has done in the past. I personally loved the storyline and some of the commentary it had on things, twisting the original fairytale (well done Emerald Fennell) but the majority of the songs are too similar and the set is a bit too simple and bare, however I do love the twist at the start of Act 2 (if you know) because everyone feels a part of the action, regardless of if you can afford front seat tickets.
It’s funny, I adore this production but I also utterly agree with everything you said! Really enjoyed this, thanks for making some excellent points
Personally I loved Cinderella but everyone is entitled to their opinion but I LOVED IT like in my option it was amazing especially the ball
Omg ikr
Same! Loved it!
I think the songs in this musical were made to be marketable individually, so when put together into a musical they sort of sound like a random playlist.
Thank god someone is saying this! I saw the show and was shocked that it had 5 star reviews? For a show about not putting appearances above it, it is very much style and spectacle over substance. It really is not revolutionary to have a cinderella with black hair and doc martens.
Your comments on this and other shows are so insightful and intelligent, I'm curious what your theater background is. I know you're a performer, but is that where you see yourself ultimately? You'd make a terrific theater critic.
I wanted to find the greatness in it but I spent the whole time thinking it was ridiculous. Lost me totally when the godmother started singing that she must be home by midnight or there will be blisters on her heels!
I’m so glad someone is talking about this! I have been mad about it since the score came out. This is not a musical that should have come from the year 2021. Andrew Lloyd Webber has shown us only that he can write somewhat catchy music, but also that he isn’t capable of pulling his head out of his ass to realize it’s not quirky or cute to hate other girls and think you’re better than everyone.
I'm not like other girls😜
To be fair I don’t think he wrote the book since he’s not credited as book writer (Emerald Fennell is) but I don’t know how the collaborative aspect worked for this show. Anyhow even if this plot was completely written by someone else alw wouldn’t call out the problem with this ‘quirky’ attitude anyway so that’s probably why it made it through the creative process
Funny you don't mention the production side of things eg direction or choregraphy.Good,bad,meh?Do you think a stronger director MIGHT have sorted out some of the "problems" with the book or perhaps Lawrence O'Connor is only good at redoing established hits.Perhaps that's worth another video?
You are 100% right. Laurence Connor has no idea how to shape a new musical. It needed someone like Harold Prince who could say no, this doesn't work, cut stuff, suggest new stuff, and basically stand up to ALW.
@@DDTC73 I think even his direction of established hits is questionable so he really wasn’t the right director for the job. Hal was a good director for ALW as he knew where to put the line down.
I saw it last week and it was ok. It reminded me of panto a little bit.
i agree with you on the panto thing. but i still really enjoyed it.
@@georgiaboughton576 Yeah, I didnt hate it, Its just unique.
I agree with those points. The score is a bit weak at times, could do with more strong songs. The story is full of holes. There are some good strong performances from the cast. I liked the staging, the visual design was nice and the use of the full revolve was fun. For all it's faults I did enjoy it and I think it will do well.
Lol, it’s now being cancelled 😂 I feel sorry for the cast and crew though as they’re just doing their job
I did the workshop for this. I wish I could talk publicly about it.
☕️
Spill pleas
Oooh, so do the rest of us! 🤣 I'm glad you survived the experience, even if you can't talk about it! 😉
What’s wrong skin not thick enough for the cast?
@@creativeeye9632 pahahahaha more like after working for 11 years in this business I know my worth.
It makes me sad that people aren’t loving it I personally thought it was outstanding but art is subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion
I agree it’s just different to what people are used to
I thought it was outstanding too! So much so I want to see it again immediately!
Same I loved it best show yet I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it but you know people will always hate
I enjoyed the show for the nonsensical entertainment it was, and especially for the wildly talented Ivano Turco. But all your criticisms are spot-on. The other criticism I had was that we NEVER see Cinderella be nice to another human. Why are we supposed to root for her or feel invested in what happens to her? I'm going to go watch your vid about the changes, I'm interested to see what they retooled.
I think they should’ve made the stepsisters and Ella secretly BFFS and the step mother had no idea. And it’s not Till the end after all the buildup that it’s revealed. Maybe just my thoughts. Still haven’t watched most likely never real because I didn’t really like the songs
Honestly having Cinderella and the stepsisters being BBFS would be amazing, and would fix the "No female character supports or uplifts another" criticism.
All valid and good points I agree with what I can say however with a bit of insider information is that the godmother the queen and the stepmother parts were reduced. The back story was more fully formed and the show was going to be the same length as Les Miserable however Sir Andrew felt that with the current restrictions it was too long. Who knows maybe one day we will get to see it as intended we can but hope I wish I was allowed to share specific details but I can’t. Long may your Chanel last I’ve only just found and subscribed to you. I find your style refreshingly honest but also fair I’m looking forward to what’s next.
It's 10 minutes shorter than Les mis. That doesn't sound like a meaningful difference.
I saw this yesterday, and while I think the cast performed their socks off, I had so many issues with the production that I was overwhelmed by the struggle to identify and articulate them all. I don't go to theatre to pick holes, I go to enjoy, but plaudits need to be earned. I appreciate you taking the time to articulate some of the biggest problems in such a clear (and well presented) way. I would also add that to me, despite the claimed "progressiveness" of the concept lots of what I saw felt very old-fashioned, in particular the lyrics which often used phrases and references which only worked for the purposes of rhyming, but which fail because they are both inauthentic to the characters voice (bimbos? what!?), and also uninteresting to the theatregoer (Small talk, banal talk so drear / All small beer and she's not here). There's the bones of a potentially good show in that some of the musical motifs are truly memorable, the use of the stage is clever (hem hem), and of course there's a wonderful cast led by Carrie Hope-Fletcher who deserves a standing ovation. But it NEEDS MORE WORK. Shows that are workshopped and fine-tuned iron out these problems and there are plenty of other examples in London where this has enabled tip-top 5-star productions but Cinderella, as it currently stands, is an undercooked mess.
I loved the album but why was the song by Prince Charming about killing the three-headed sea witch not in the show? Maybe because it needed a voice like Adam Lambert!
That was my favourite song on the album.
I really like that song too!
I don't know why in god's name this show was even needed. We got a perfect Broadway Cinderella in 2013!!!
I personally really enjoyed it! That so I’m taking my best friend this weekend!
Really enjoyed this video and agree with many of your points x
I couldn’t get past the dreadful music and ghastly lyrics. A WICKED wanna be that falls short and don’t get me started on the idiotic direction. UGH!
Mickey Jo I agree with Everything you say in youre Review of Cinderella Well done 👍 x
My daughter took her daughter to see this at the weekend. Both were really disappointed and said they wished they went to Frozen instead. A waste of money sorry.
Rodgers and Hammerstein’s Cinderella ( the original 1957 Julie Andrews version) is the definitive Cinderella to me.
Thanks for this series (and in particular to this one for including the photos of the costumes - I listened to "Beauty Has a Price" earlier today and was curious about Cinderella's "makeover").
1:30 What you're referring to is the typical structure of musical theatre. Basically it goes: Characters talk until their emotions become so overwhelming that they break into song. They sing, until their emotions become so overwhelming that they break into dance. They talk until they sing, they sing until they dance. Talk, sing, dance. Talk, sing, dance. Talk, sing, dance. Big crescendo, lights go out, everyone goes to pee. Orchestra plays medley of upbeat first act songs, begins blending in Act 2 opening number. Sing, dance, talk, sing, dance, sing, dance, pose. Talk, sing, dance. Talk, sing, dance. Talk, sing, dance. Big crescendo, lights go out, curtain call, everyone goes home.
In regards to that one stepmother dress, i'm pretty sure it is a knock off version of a famous dress worn by Cardi B at the Grammy's (I can't remember the designer though) but still an odd choice in my opinion.
I got the clear impression from the show that it wasn't fully fleshed out. As though it was rushed to production.
I actually think it has pretty good potential. But it needs work.
loved this video, I completely agree with all of your points. This show was a miss for me.
You hit everything on the head. My partner and I would have left by the third song but we had paid so much money for tickets that we felt we had to sit through it. Lots of things to fix in this play if you don't want people falling asleep.
Random comment to say I love your videos and your fiercely feminist self 😁 keep slaying! ❤
I have not seen the show becuase I am in the USA but I LOVE the soundtrake and hope to see the show when and if it comes here.
You make very excellent points and you should shout them louder tbh x
i know this is a year late and you've probably mentioned this in another video that i've forgotten about, but i wonder if most of the songs are sung alone because of social distancing? its not a good enough excuse but i feel like it would be easier to plan/rehearse songs that dont involve the performers to be in the same room as each other
I went to see bedknobs and broomsticks because of your review, thank you. Its great to watch this too.
dead at the 'arrived without warning' and carrie breaking down the door 😂😭💀
That made me laugh too.
Honestly, I really enjoyed your take. But also I loved this version because while everything you say is pretty much spot on, the show was just fun. And sometimes that's all I want from the theatre.
Just saw this today and completely agree with these thoughts! Found the plot to be very strange and inconsistent throughout e.g. everyone hates/knows Cinderella at the start as the vandal of the statue, but then a. she never really does anything of that type of "rebellious" again except just sass, b. she seems more anonymous/invisible rather than notorious through the rest of the show. Not just the godmother but a lot of elements seemed very plot devicey and thinly explained.
Fun fact: I was at the show today as well 😅
@@MickeyJoTheatre Ah that show-about-to-close ticket rush :D
I went to see this on the 8th of June before it closed, and I cannot agree with you more honestly. The cast really saved the show, and I have come away just sad that I didn't get one of the brochures/programmes as they literally sold out at the show I went to... So now I am searching high and low for someone selling one as I collect them from every show I see ;3;
I went to see the matinee on the same day as you. Nearly left at the interval! I had someone behind me that was saying they'd sold out too. Perhaps because they only made a limited amount and the next batch already had the 'new cast' in so they coudnt sell those ones?
Yep, agree with all the comments. I'm not surprised it closed early, I went a week before the announcement, they had closed the circle and moved everyone to the stalls to make it look busier, my friend got 15 free tickets through 'Masterclass' and they were still empty seats all over the theatre. Audience weren't buying the story... It's a tricky show to try and put on as you will be pre-alienating everyone that says that 'we don't need a feminist retelling of the story' and post-alienating anyone that comes and watches it 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤦♂️
Very on-spot analysis. I found it very surprising that the screenplay by the recent Academy Award Winner Emerald Fennell ended up being the MAIN problem in this musical.
100% agree with everything you’ve said here 👏👏👏
It doesn’t commit to being provocative enough to appeal to the demographics who are sidelined by beauty standards, and it doesn’t commit to being a fun mummy-daughter romantic thrill ride. It’s just not fun. It’s a smug lesson in by nice to people. It’s boring for everyone involved.
I feel like ALW's shows tend to struggle when it comes to plot, characterizations, and relationships... (*cough* Love Never Dies *cough*) These are all super good points. Yes, the music is important. But variety and depth is also important.
One thing I think that could have worked for the Godmother is maybe people asked her to do surgeries on them but she didn’t want to, she doesn’t think people need to alter their looks to be beautiful, but maybe she had a past of being very poor or something so she never quit her job, and that’s the exact reason she gives Cinderella the shoes in exchange for the necklace, cause she feels bad for her and she has nothing to offer. Maybe she has trust issues and she could let Cinderella borrow them for a few hour (until midnight) and if it’s any later, she’ll assume that Cinderella is stealing them and she’ll tell the town it’s her. I came up with that on the spot and it seems much better then what actually happened in the musical
At 9:20 when he clapped it out I clicked subscribe! Newly minted fan from California!
All I could think of during this was if I'm going to watch a musical about Cinderella, I'll stick with Into the Woods.
i understand what youre syaing about the low stakes, but i got the impression that the queen was just paranoid and there was never going to be a revolution, so the stakes weren't "the peasants are going to revolt, so the queen forces the son to get married, so the story happens", it was more "the queen forced the son to get married so the story happens" with the revolt being something she is just worried about bc it happened in a neighbouring kingdom
again, i completely get what you mean about the blackmail, and your interpretation is probably much closer to alw's intentions, but this is also my interpretation of the blackmail plot - the queen is very fickle and just acts on whatever she wants at the time, so once she has some good publicity she just ignores the stepmother and doesnt care anymore, and in truth the blackmail probably never really matter in the first place just like everything else the queen wants
I think most of what you say is interesting, but can't ignore the fact that you didn't seem to understand a lot of the plot points. Given that it's seven months later I think that's understandable, and I agree with you in some of them (like the godmother not making any sense). But other ones I just can't agree with because they're exactly what the musical is trying to portray and you just went the other way. It's the first of your videos I see and I don't really know about musicals that much, I just enjoy going every once in a while so I'm by no means an expert but I felt like it would be nice to expand on some things and I just saw it last night and it's fresh in my mind:
1) The fact that you complain about the protagonists not actually being ugly: first, that is kind of a point the musical makes. Beauty is a whole spectrum and it's also cultural. Also they wouldn't be looking to alienate an actor casting them because they're oh so ugly. The point is that beauty standards are arbitrary, the town is obsessed with the flashy fake beauty that you can buy, not the inner or natural beauty that we all have. We don't have to say "oh carrie doesn't weight 45 kilograms or ivano is not super buff" or whatever like you were implying. That's not the point. They make it very clear that cinderella was supposed to actually spend and meticulously design her style according to the fashion of the town (because when she does, as you noticed everyone says how pretty she actually is, but of course she hasn't changed her face, her height, her weight, etc) otherwise she wouldn't be accepted, and prince sebastian had to be more "masculine" in the sporty sense, which he wasn't, because that's all the town's culture values.
2) When you say that all female characters hate each other: that's exactly the point. I can't believe this is missed from this video. When vanity and competition are so ingrained in a culture, it's impossible to see other people as your allies. Cinderella and sebastian become friends because they're basically outsiders to this. Of course no one would support each other if they're made to compete in the latest fashions and are otherwise deemed unworthy. The queen even says she doesn't know any women. This is so on the nose and obvious that I'm really surprised it's misunderstood in this analysis.
3) Prince charming doesn't necessarily hate his brother, I don't think he cares about him much either. But given that it's implied that the royal wedding leads to someday leading the kingdom it seems like he came back for that. Also he does mention that his mom wanted to marry him off and he didn't know how to deal with that and that's why he didn't come back but now that there must be a royal wedding he wants to do it but on his term. Of course he's obnoxious, he's part of the same vain troupe that keeps endorsing this weird lifestyle that everyone in the town has. Of course he's going to choose a partner that fits into those beauty standards. They could've gone the other way and say that he left because he was tired of having to fit in but they decided not to, which is questionable of course, but it does make sense within the story and the way that they showed him.
4) The main point about having royal wedding is tourism. Again they mention this many times, the crown is gonna go broke without tourism, it's their main source of income. That's why the town is so obsessed with looks. When they lose the most beautiful town award, the queen is worried no one is gonna come visit so she devices a royal wedding because that will bring a lot of people to the ball (she even mentions making them pay vip entry) and then they can do a whole thing around that theme. She even has a discussion with claude because claude wants her to do a more affordable ball (with no swans) and the queen doesn't want to lower her spending. This isn't even mentioned in the video.
5) You mention the thing about the step mother dressing ridiculously like she wants to fit in but she doesn't. Again: exactly the point of the musical!!!! she was literally an exotic dancer or something who marries cinderella's dad obviously for money (for the house) and now tries to fit in. How could you miss this? You even say it.
Anyways I got tired after typing so much and I feel like you do have a point in the more technical bits about musical structure (but again I don't know anything about this and I suppose you do so I'm just watching to learn) but about the actual story and plot points... I'm not sure I agree.
Sorry for the long message and if my arguments are not very clear, I don't usually post comments but I thought this video was misguided.
I understand the plot points and the intentions of the writing here as you've described, but I think they were misguided.
Watching through, I promise, but initial impression >> love the stache!!
The problem is that the story of Cinderella has now been done so much that unless you completely re-invent it and tell it in a different way (like Soho Cinders did by giving us a male lovestory) it’s just gonna end up being the same re-hashing of the same story.
i personally think it really was not the edgy progressive gen z feminist lgbt slay it was clearly supposed to be
(ps: wouldve been more slay if the queen and stepmother were lovers in boarding school - just saying)
i just think mr tory lloyd webber is just a little outdated and its kinda sad that there are so many other talented playwrights who dont even get close to the amount of recognition he does
BUT CREDIT TO THAT CELEBRATION SCENE WHERE THE CAST IS LATIN DANCING
I CANT REALLY REMEMEBE IT BUT OH MY GOD I LOVED IT (probs bc it had barely any dialogue though LMFAO)
It was still better than the other Cinderella movie released in 2021
Listening to you just confirms all my points on why I don't like ALW and think he's incredibly overrated
To be fair, Phantom is a good musical!
Agree with the godmother randomly changing her entire character in act two. In act one she definitely shakes things up a bit and it’s a real shame that’s not carried through.
I also didn’t really get or understand the whole Queen and Stepmother thing and also thought the song was meh.
There was also too many random rude jokes in this show for my liking, most of which did not really serve any purpose.
Only real thing that worked for me was that the Prince was a geeky hero and his song is nice and his relationship with Cinderella is sweet
I agree with your assessment, although I have to say that I found the Stepmother's attire very fitting for her character. I know which dress you're referring to, and although it was rather jarring in a way, I still thought it suited her. Incidentally, she's my favorite character in the whole show!